How good is the Chu Ko Nu? (AoE2)

[@Hemostat]

Damn spirit of the law must have sooo many extra websites sitting around

[@xarin42]

I get why not, but I really wish sometimes that he actually made them just as a joke T^T I keep checking occasionally, but no luck.

[@Jz4p]

This man knows how to side hustle.

[@siiiiiiiiiimo]

Hes a real business tycooon

[@zeroyuki92]

He needs to make the Spirit of the List as the website for listing of his previous websites

[@lokenontherange]

Someone lie in an ad???

[@cacobutignol8516]

Clicked this video faster than a Chukonu rate of fire

[@koslov3148]

Before or after the elite upgrade?

[@greatesterrboi408]

pretty slow

[@Progeusz-]

not very fast then

[@zintosion]

What took so long?

[@danielkearl7392]

Saw what you did there

[@TonyRedgrave]

My favorite part of the Squarespace sponsorships is SotL's endless new business ventures. They're a fun detail.

[@siiiiiiiiiimo]

Hell yeah

[@DocSmouse]

Are we going to get a series about the worst elite upgrades after this video? Might be a neat topic to cover! I know you've done the "worst upgrades", but it would be fun to see it pertaining to only elites.

[@GvF11]

Genovese xbow to the front

[@SIGNOR-G]

​@@GvF11 that is more useless than bad. Doesnt improve that much for what it costs.

[@sgodran6903]

1:15 samurai with ADHD checking if he brought his sword... many times

[@rupert7565]

The elite Chu Ko Nu upgrade deserves a 5% attack speed bonus, just to offset the increase due to animation.

[@CrnaStrela]

Probably needed more, increasing the attack speed won't do much if the projectiles still fly at the same speed.

[@灰烬-u8t]

or even more accuracy for extra arrow maybe with the penalty of remove lower creation time, which make their elite upgrade look more promising.

[@88porpoise]

Yeah, Chinese do not need any buffs.

[@bigbroarivus]

Chu Ko Nu, the bane of Le Loi campaign where Rattan Archer failed to shine in the Vietnamese campaign and makes people thinks that Imperial Skirmisher is their unique unit

[@teddyhaines6613]

Rattans do fine against Chu Ko Nu as long as you focus fire them, and importantly also kill the knights/cavalier that always accompany them in Le Loi, so they absolutely have their place.

[@bigbroarivus]

@@teddyhaines6613 they do fine and trade 1:1, replaying the Le Loi campaign I found Skirmisher + Cavalry Archer did better in most mission, only the final mission where I found Elite Rattan is better than Heavy Cav Archer. The campaign is designed to face many Chu Ko Nu, Onager, Champion, and Cavalier. If only the enemy is not all Chinese, and train more like xbow or cav archer, then Rattan would have more time to shine

[@teddyhaines6613]

@@bigbroarivus I prefer a melee complement to the archer in the campaign because you often have a ton of siege to snipe. I'll go for knights or battle elephants depending. I actually think the final mission is the only one where I reach for the Imp skirm, but only to spam into the enemy base alongside light cav to keep their army count low while the main deathball of elite battle eles, rattans and siege kill all the buildings.

[@dreunik6356]

Chu Ko Nu was my favorite unique unit as a child :) Chu Ko Nu + trebuchets and my friend's army as meat shield

[@SahilChikara]

you said, it was your fav unit, i want to ask which unit replaced himself with chu ko nu

[@dreunik6356]

@@SahilChikara I guess I said "was" because it has been a long time (more than a decade) since I properly play AOE2. It's still my favorite, don't get me wrong. Nothing can replace those memories of a ball of death of Cho Ko Nus wrecking everything in its path.

[@troybernier2968]

2 hours ago I got on youtube and watched your Chukonu garrison dmg video because nothing new was out. And now 2 hours later theres this. Aoe2 Gods are here to please

[@robdillenger4763]

Spirit forgot to mention the real strength of the Elite upgrade: 40 E CKU's Combined with chemistry blasting fire bolts is dazzling... Just like my new side business, Spirit of the Lightshow.

[@lallau]

you said it before and i liked it: because they're and anti anti-archer archer

[@HasekuraIsuna]

Reminds of that YuGiOh-card: Anteaterearingant

[@ArawnOfAnnwn]

That was the Geneose Crossbowman, since it counters cavalry. The Italians also have the anti anti-infantry infantry in the Condottiero, which counters hand cannoneers.

[@MiniMackeroni]

Time to watch another video about a game I last played 12 years ago and I'm going to enjoy it.

[@kevinnorwood8782]

Nice that you mentioned that historical Chu-Ko-Nus typically had poison on the tips of their arrows to make them lethal. And from everything I've heard, the poison they'd douse those arrows with was strong enough to kill a TIGER.

[@Ghost-qr6yh]

Finally. We are going to have an overview for the Chinese in the next few weeks.

[@jotfohm4644]

No ßhit Sherlock@@Ghost-qr6yh

[@alberich5355]

Yeah....right after the overview for teutons...

[@jotfohm4644]

No shit Sherlock,@@Ghost-qr6yh

[@jotfohm4644]

No shit,@@Ghost-qr6yh

[@Doktersocks]

Or will we?

[@ryans8122]

Justice for the Chu Ko Nu elite upgrade

[@jotfohm4644]

Ask the Huskarls, Spirit.. Ask the Huskarls..

[@llSuperSnivyll]

Knowing how the Chu Ko Nu worked IRL, I think they could have been made differently, and rather than fire multiple shots with a standard reload time, they could fire one at a time but have a much shorter reload time if they don't move (just to say something as an example, up to twice as fast as the Arbalester), in exchange for less damage.

[@youmukonpaku3168]

at least in the Genie Engine as it worked in 1998, that wasn't a mechanical option, though I fully agree it makes more sense than the burst fire zhugenu we got.

[@BrigadierBill]

I think the Kipchak used to work like that (besides standing still), until it was nerfed into a mounted Chu-Ko-Nu because something about their rapid-fire was overpowered.

[@EvilDoresh]

For some reason I'm now picturing them firing with the speed of a machine gun

[@maxking1599]

Literally just finished a game playing African Clearing 2v2. Booming whole game and then going full CHU KO NU + TREBS AND LIGHT CAV. Melting Hindustani and Japanese. Then came on KZbin to check review of CHU KO NU, and i see you just posted it. Thanks :)

[@EvilDoresh]

Fun fact: there exist larger versions of the Cu Ko Nu, designed to be mounted on ships and probably walls as well.

[@warlordtitan5633]

So I don't play AoE (I tried after watching a few of these videos, decided I didn't enjoy it, a bit intensive for my tastes but to each their own) but I still watch damn near every episode of this. You have great presentation and your videos have a very relaxing feel to them. Great stuff!

[@sgtpepper8581]

Since the chinese tecnology discount nerf, chukonu upgrades are unfairly more expensive, maybe devs should balance that

[@yizhenji5564]

True story Q-Q

[@TheTuttle99]

It happened to a friend of a friend of mine Q-Q

[@yuuya5985]

im impressed by all those different website names SotL has come up with😂

[@Aoedam]

The outro music tickles my ears in the best way possible

[@TheArklyte]

I was always wondering what would be an archer team up for them. Not in AoE2 specifically, but more in a "fantasy/althistory setting with roughly equal global tech level".

[@bijoyroy11]

Did not expect that rocketry plug

[@Aurichalcam]

You never cease to amaze me with your side gig puns

[@TheMrSeagull]

Chu Ko Nu my beloved...

[@aaaaaaaard9586]

Zhegenu is from Shu Han in 200 AD, which is one of hundreds kingdoms and empires in China. Qing, Han, Song, Ming, and etc. all have wildely different cultures and militaries. AoE is Eurocentric for good reasons but it’s still wild to see how every little tiny European civs like Scillians and Lithuanians are represented with unique game and art design while the whole China, which is bigger than Europe with multiple times more population, is just one thing, moreover all Asian civilaization execpt for India have exactly the same weird pseudo-Japanese architecture

[@taowroland8697]

Not really. Most of the strategy game market driven by European descended males, who disproportionately can afford gaming pcs worldwide. India became fleshed out when that market got into gaming. It isn't surprising that the game focuses on the identities of its primary player base. Also, politically speaking, breaking up chinese culture into smaller nations wouldn't sit well with the CCP who would simply ban the game.

[@aaaaaaaard9586]

I did say "eurocentric for good reasons" didn't I? I know the only reason Asian civ exists in AoE is because they needed samurai in the game.

[@aaaaaaaard9586]

​@@taowroland8697Also there is a blaring example that proves your "westerners driving strategy game market" statement wrong, Starcraft. I bought AoE2 in SK when I was young, when AoC was out.

[@taowroland8697]

@@aaaaaaaard9586 I suppose I should have said historical strategy games. Total War, AoE, Civilization, Rise of Empires, Crusader Kings, etc.

[@EresirThe1st]

What you named were different dynasties of the same civilisation, not different a different civ. That’s like asking for Plantagenets and Tudors as different civs. China was a unified state for most of its history in this period. Nanzhang or something could be a different civ but how many people are asking for that?

[@whitemagick4]

China DLC confirmed.

[@siiiiiiiiiimo]

For real?

[@aidancamp2593]

For age of mythology retold

[@whitemagick4]

@@aidancamp2593 No for AOE2.

[@Angzt]

The table at 10:00 (showing the elite upgrade's DPS bonus) was without rocketry, wasn't it? Wouldn't it look worse with Rocketry? That only buffs the main projectile, so the reduced attack speed of Elite has a greater negative effect after Rocketry. And since you'd prioritize Rocketry over Elite anyways, that's relevant to consider.

[@RiceMonger888]

I wish I could advance in time to the year 3000, just to see how many civilisations this game will have.

[@TeunisD]

I remember in 1.0c Conqurerors the Chu Ko Nu were stronger than now. But not sure, it just feels like that.

[@nothanks7475]

Power creep of other new civs

[@CrnaStrela]

Due to the game's low frame, high damage ranged unit like ckn was pretty feared. They can stand ground and brutally murder knights that tried to fight them, can't do that with crossbow, you needed micro and it was hard to do in multiplayer game.

[@30Salmao]

This video was awesome. The coment on scale of the fight you did in the 1st half of the video comparing little battles of chu ko nu and crossbows vs cavalry was excelent. To be 100% in this comparisons between ranged vs melee you could do a table (like many incredible tables you used in this video) to show the tipping point were equal resources of ranged vs melee makes the ranged unit win. Maybe the % comparison you did between cross vs chu you could do between calv vs ranged using % of HP left as a sign of the win/lose side. Of course with micro. Maybe even counting (using the video length) the secs it takes to kill everyone. Like a "APM drawback" of microing long dificult battles like archers vs cavalry. This would be specially cool in archers vs onagers. This table with the tiping point or with the amount of secs it takes to destroy this better opponent. Well, just some ideas. Your videos are better each time SotL. We all love you. TY for you content. .

[@pesilaratnayake162]

This guy takes his math seriously! Hella respect at 7:35 226% *more* damage being in addition to the baseline damage, not just as a proportion of the baseline. Pet peeve when people mess that up!

[@modest123]

When I was a kid my friend always called them "chickenoos" never fails to make me giggle

[@ANGST.ARGENTINA]

All hail our new Lord. Spirit of Cape Canaveral!

[@JGeMcL]

Havent played AOE2 since i was a kid 20 years ago. Still watch every video because i have good memories playing as a kid 20 years ago. 😊

[@ruihanzeng3645]

They should just move the +2 damage from rocketry to the elite upgrade and then have rocketry only give +4 to scrpions. Then the elite upgrade would seem justified without making the unit any stronger or weaker than it currently is.

[@Howardax]

But then the value of Rocketry becomes totally gimped, if it only gave a minor damage buff to scorpions then it wouldn't be taken in 90% of situations and would be too expensive for what it does. Personally, I'd be curious to see what would happen if Rocketry instead gave +1 damage to the secondary arrows, but that might be totally broken in practice so I can see why it is the way it is.

[@thomasfplm]

​@@Howardax, if it gave +1 to secondary arrows, the increase would be negated by armour equal or above 1. Unless they made the secondary projectiles ignore armour.

[@Howardax]

@@thomasfplm Haha yeah, that's what I meant but you put it in better mechanical terms; My possible idea would be Rocketry grants Chu-Ko-Nu 2-DMG arrows that ignore armor.

[@CrnaStrela]

Ok hear me out, what if you put the +2 on ckn elite upgrade but make rocketry increase the speed of arrow projectiles including the scorp and ckn? It would indirectly made them reload faster as well as making it much harder to dodge.

[@VieneLea]

I'm unconvinced with the "elite upgrade always gives more damage" theory. League of Legends taught me that 5% higher attackspeed doesn't always mean "5% more DPS" but "sometimes you do double damage", when you hit your opponent twice instead of once. Since Elite upgrade makes them take more time to fire a second strong shot, then surely there are instances where that matters when, say, being slaughtered by a 2-pierce armor infantry, where a non-elite succesfully would often hit with two strong bolts and two weak ones while an elite version would only do one strong and four weak ones.

[@dph121]

One thing I'm missing is a table of the % DPM change of going from regular chu ko nu with rocketry to elite chu ko nu with rocketry. The increased damage of the main projectile is going to make the delay caused by the secondary projectiles more frustrating. It seems possible that at 2 and 3 pierce armor the effect of the elite upgrade could be negative. (at 4 pierce armor it's going to be the same as 2 pierce armor without rocketry, so +1.9%)

[@dph121]

I tried to calculate it myself. If my calculations are correct: Against 2 pierce armor targets and with rocketry researched, the elite upgrade increases dpm by 0.9% Against 3 pierce armor targets and with rocketry researched, the elite upgrade increases dpm by 1.3%

[@TrashyMan]

Thanks for another very informative video! May I suggest, that when presenting unit vs unit you also put the costs to fully upgrade those units? i.e. 3:50 the costs to FU chu ko nus and xbows up to that point? Thanks again! I also enjoyed your participation on Masmorra's video!

[@leonardorivelorivelo9253]

Chinese overview or retrospective soon ig. Heres a question for whomever sees this comment. Do you like how AoE2 does hidden and/or extra damage? Should unit stats be better explained or is it enough?

[@curlywhites]

*Whoever. I know the word comes after a preposition, but the verb is the more important distinguishing factor. "Sees" is the actions verb here, meaning "whoever" is the subject. And the difference between "whomever" and "whoever" is object vs. subject respectively. Anyway, I think the tech tree should have explained it a bit more. Which is why I'm glad there's a mod that adds that extra information.

[@youmukonpaku3168]

Age of Empires 3 did it right (yeah, yeah, I'm already wearing the asbestos suit) by allowing you to see it if you wanted, but keeping it hidden if you didn't turn on advanced stats, because damn did that stat screen get messy.

[@ChargingEve]

Battering ram: *exists* Chu ku nu: Haha bolts go brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[@yutuvefan4ever]

8:55 So my brother brought up an interesting point: What if the Elite version is purposely meant to be inaccurate to have a catapult or Arambai effect? Basically AoE arrows upon the enemy.

[@integralinsanity1641]

They are a truly distinguished unit, a classic, a staple.

[@jhonylg4045]

I would like to see this one more in line with the "real life" conter part, give it a magazine with 5 arrows that it can fire very fast and a bigger reload time for the magazine.

[@princeimrahil6557]

Clicked this video as fast as the Chukonu rate of fire AFTER the elite upgrade

[@Pacamol]

About the extra arrows that miss their target: if they fall on another enemy unit, do they still harm them? If so, it would actually be good against large armies.

[@williamhosinski2846]

chu ko nice

[@kOaMaster2]

So the Elite Upgrade in terms of extra damage is worth it after building about 300-400 Chu Ko Nus (taking into consideration gold only in lategame, 800/6%/35gold per unit). The 5 extra HP and the faster creation time are so neglectable that we can safely say: the upgrade isn't worth it in any standard game. only get it in cases were heavy lategame with infinite gold can be expected (BF, Arena). And to be fair, on those maps, chu ko nu's any chinese suck anyway because (siege) onager are guaranteed. -> I see basically no reason for that upgrade.

[@craighabing8893]

I understand that the Elite Chu Ko Nu has potentially lower damage output because of the hidden decrease in accuracy for the follow-on arrows but is that not an intended benefit? I wonder if the missing extra arrows could potentially damage other units adjacent to the target, i.e., a large group of enemy archers. This could indirectly alleviate overkill if units are allowed to free fire.

[@josephwhittaker2065]

Ah, the unit I used to spam way back in the day on Age of Kings on my extraordinarily long save names, with next to no villies and castle spam as I could get it, punishing those easiest opponents the best I could.

[@andrewramadhanar]

Chukonu literally a walking castle

[@hbarudi]

Play lake poyang scenario. You can get the achievement (100,000 cho ko nu arrows) if you make sure the transports arrive, but don't build the wonder right away. Instead go around the map with your cho ko nu and defeat all your enemies completely.

[@pramitbanerjee]

Hey spirit, law of the guys here

[@krystofmichajlovfrancisko8224]

Hey Pramitbanerjee, guy here

[@StriKe_jk]

That the extra projectiles don't do damage seems to be a bug tho.

[@Tareltonlives]

NGL when I play with the Chukounu I pretend the soldiers are actually carrying Huo Long Jian, a handheld rocket arrow launcher to explain why it comes out as a spray and why it does so much damage against armor

[@nilsp9426]

History: "Known for its weak and imprecise arrows" AoE2 ram built of sturdy wood: "I have been scammed!"

[@quecobpt]

What do you know about the new DLC?

[@MazuiLakon]

Are u ginna do vids on age of myth?

[@arn0000]

3:00 SOTL check ur vid, theres an inconsistency / wrong visual

[@distributistsshrekvideo]

I kind of expected you to analyze aom retold a bit more. It's even more confusing than aoe2.

[@5p1t]

hit a run is a very common strategy with archers, so in these cases wouldnt the elite upgreade really decrease the total damage, as you`ld need to get the left over +1 arrows out?

[@hamsterkoster]

I'm curious if the elite upgrade might lower the DPS with Rocketry compared to non-elite + rocketry, and what the total DPS increase is with rocketry + elite upgrade.

[@VolanWark]

Would have loved to see the elite upgrade damage change if you already researched rocketry too

[@bristleback3614]

Interestingly Chu ko nu are the fastest firing projectile weapon until gatling gun

[@philbert9300]

As a Kid i played aoe 2 with Cheats and i allways Build the unique Unit from every Nation. In the competitve scene im allways hyped to See these on the rare occasions they where Build. Great Video and very analytic! 👍

[@seaFounder]

You can basically have something close to a Gatling gun if you have 2 control groups of chu ko nu.

[@sel_ferns]

The elite upgrade is basically a non-essential luxurious item.

[@5cmain207]

Are teuton rams helpful against chu ko nu?

[@灰烬-u8t]

No, Chu Ko Nu still deal 1+1+1+1+1 Just use onager or any range unit that out range them to defeat Chu Ko Nu

[@L3monsta]

I would have loved a Composite Bowman comparison since they're both archers that buck the trend of being weak against pierce armor Also wouldn't mind comparing them against rattan archers

[@pauliesoprano1787]

When will you make is video for how to good is samurai?

[@JavierGarcia-yc8uz]

What's the name of the track that starts at the minute 11.

[@TheArklyte]

Rocketry and elite upgrade have personal beef with units with 11 armor. Also that poor 9 armor unit in arbalester comparison, wow😅

[@VIFASIS]

Waiting to see a very big "unit fix" section in the next patch after this video

[@agustinfranco0]

the comparison between elite and non elite dmg takes rocketry into account? otherwise it might not be worth it then

[@Davtwan]

I was wondering why you weren’t mentioning the accuracy until you did in the Imperial Age section. Oof.

[@MGFamilytree]

Chu ko nu buff incoming?

[@evertvasterlund4034]

Now imagine a Chu Ko Nu on an elephant. That’s terror.

[@derikaem8021]

are chu ko nu good against shrivamsha rider?

[@teddyhaines6613]

Should melt them. Shrivamshas are terrible once their shield is down, and chu ko nu do that in record time.

[@SimonFallheart]

did you compare elite chuku nu with normal chukuunu that still has the rest of the imperial age?

[@samadams2203]

Hmm, no wonder it's so rare to see them now.

[@tankofnova9022]

What units can even flank Chu ko nue? With normal archer units, any cav unit can run past the front line and snipe. Chu ko nue will just kill them anyway. Only unit I can think of is the savomsha rider with that arrow immunity, but even that gets drained. Longbowmen simply out range them by a mile though

[@teddyhaines6613]

Just use your own archers or skirms. Spirit made the chu ko nu look better against archers than it is by not microing archers back to exploit their superior range.

[@aresnir2725]

I liked Chu Ko Nu in Age of Kings, but it seems like they were nerfed in recent versions.

[@nothanks7475]

It’s the power creep of new civs being released

[@Green__Ghost]

Still waiting for that Teutons overview.

[@cIappo896]

It's not really an accuracy debuff; it's just that the 1st projectile is 100%, last 2 extra projectiles are the ones that hit about ~40% of the time.

[@EvilDoresh]

The low accuracy is probably not too bad considering the larger armies common to the late game. You're bound to hit _something_

[@UnDeaDCyBorg]

So will getting both Elite AND Rocketry still be a net damage gain?

[@MrRomanticboy1996]

So should we upgrade it to elite bro?

[@Keln02]

Elite upgrade? How about Chu-ko-NO

[@itsme4234]

Where’s the intro song

[@Faust227]

Elite Chu Ko Nu kinda remind me to a TF2 Heavy: low accuracy and massive amounts of ammo used.

[@quaintserpent]

Well in my opinion chu ko nu is underpowered. Their reload time should be longer but all projectile should do full base damage + accuracy like arambai. Peace ✌️

[@Indiedude]

So should I upgrade Chu Ko Nu to elite or not?

[@Nazuiko]

Yes but only when youre floating the res, have a large army of CKNs, and have Rocketry first. De-prio the upgrade unless youre specifically aiming to shred buildings/siege

[@MammothSaltyGachaponOfficial]

Chinese overview incoming?

[@CaptainCorobo]

Still waiting on the update chinese overview!

[@matthewodonnell2998]

Hello!

[@SirArbeitslos]

Hey Spirit of law, guys here

[@bendavis8610]

Chu ko nu my favourite!

[@GreetTheSacredCow]

I love this unit. Total deathball power fantasy. But then come the enemy onagers...

[@MastaDJMax]

Still hoping for 'Spirit of the Bong' segway.