How Lahabrea GROWS For His Family (FFXIV Lore Explained)

The Pandaemonium raid series in Final Fantasy XIV Endwalker gave us a lot of development for Lahabrea as a character. Let's explore the journey of the ascian in ancient times, along with his wife Athena and son Ericthonios. Hope you're enjoying Patch 6.4!
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[@Kaligraphy22]

One of my favorite parts was when after Athena was defeated and sees Eric's memory: Athena: "Have you finally come around to my side?" Eric: Nope. Athena: You're still useless. Eric: Yeah, but who made me that way? Was not ready for that clapback but damn was that justified.

[@StoutHelm]

My man was COOKIN with that comeback.

[@Lyu-Phy]

He is the best and goodest boy.

[@youngimperialistmkii]

Between Hermes and Athena. There is a theme of how destructive bad parenting can be running through EW. In both cases it took the WOL's guidance, affection and trust. To set the wayward children upon the right path. It's also chilling that in the end. Neither Athena nor Hermes ever truly sought to rectify their mistakes with their children.

[@StoutHelm]

Solid point to make. I hadn’t thought about the parallels with Hermes and Meteion, but it makes sense thematically.

[@silvinity4939]

Now that you mention it it's also interesting in that they're sort of opposite extremes. Hermes was so afraid to influence another life that he did nothing to help or comfort Meteion and left her alone. Athena on the other hand was excessively restrictive and controlling of Erichthonios to shape him for her own ends.

[@acgearsandarms1343]

Mistakes implies fault with her parenting. She did it by design, which is far worse in my opinion. She didn’t love him as a mother, she cared about him as a tool. By her own admission.

[@leonides1527]

Endwalker. Family issue edition

[@akumamakima2280]

Hermes was right. And also hermes wasn't a parent. Meteion was more like a pet.

[@CrusesFear]

Honestly, this is my favourite raid series of the whole game. And I will say that I appreciated how the story didn't try to make us feel better or 'redee'm modern Lahabrea, but to simply contextualise and give us a more informed perspective. It now makes much more sense why Lahabrea was such a nutjob in ARR/Heavensward. Gone half insane due to the strain of time and stress (like Emet and Elidibus), tempered by Zodiark, but also afflicted with the 'corruption' to his mind by Athena after rejoining with his past half at the end of the raid, and carrying with him the Heart of Sabik, which we now know it was an extra corrupting influence as white auracite (and containing Athena herself!). I'm pretty happy coming out of the raid liking Ericthonios, loving Elidibus more than ever, and liking ancient Lahabrea while still being 'able' to hate post-sundering Lahabrea.

[@snailmail2000]

They really did Lahabrea justice after being considered a laughing stock after Heavensward. And holy hell, can we agree Athena is absolutely *vile* here? She's down there with Asahi and Valens as some of the biggest scum of the earth evil in the game.

[@Lyu-Phy]

She is definitely number 1 (but the other ones are basically very close too). She is doing eugenics to the extreme, a flawed and heated concept in itself already but she does it with no care for anything but herself. A world only for her alone, with inhabitants she can just toy with or toss into the garbage when she is not pleased with them anymore. Vile is an understatement. Hell even Fandaniel is a saint in comparison, he is beyond hope and very evil, yes, but atleast he had a noble reason (fullfilling his emperors wish or ambition) as twisted it may be. I love how unredeemable and unsympathetic she is and ends up being. Just pure selfishness and rotten to the core, with no good qualities at all. Just a villain being pure evil. That is a very very rare trait in media.. and I appreciate it all the more, I loved it already with Fandaniel, but even he is better off ironically. I absolutely love Lahabrea in this tier.. it is clear how duty is everything and above all for him, not even the fusion with his "corrupted" half can stop this fact. He also speaks with open mind and doesnt try to deny who he will become, doing everything in his power for the sake of his people.

[@zeehero7280]

Burn out the bad! Burn out the bad!

[@snailmail2000]

@@zeehero7280 again, vile asf

[@blackfox4138]

The thing I like about this story is that it allows us to have a full understanding of where we stand with each of the Paragons. Emet-Selch someone we hold much respect towards, and quite literally in another life we were fast and loyal friends, yet we are destined to be enemies. Elidibus, once blinded by his sense of duty, reconciles with us in understanding that his duty to the star means that we don't have to be natural enemies, and we end things off as friends. Then you have Lahabrea, who is stalwart in his loyalty to the star, and it ends on an interesting note in that both of us fully understand that our alliance is only temporary, and that us being fated enemies is something that we both accept and respect. I really love how the story allows the Paragons to be in that funny gray area of being respected enemies.

[@StoutHelm]

One hundred percent. We needed this for perspective on Lahabrea, and they did a phenomenal job fleshing him out.

[@Lyu-Phy]

And one theme is also clearer than ever before after Pandaemonium. For them Duty is above all. Above all other petty issues. Man I do love the Ascians/Ancients.. truly victims of their circumstances.

[@iantaakalla8180]

Honestly, it really makes clear the Amaroutines’ virtues are their fatal flaws. They clearly are pretty virtuous; they just are massively inflexible and accept nothing except themselves as living beings.

[@BrambleBear]

This is the best divorce I've ever served.

[@StoutHelm]

Better than TV crime drama.

[@acgearsandarms1343]

To quote Emet-Selch, I say this about Athena and her plans for godhood. “You are unworthy.”

[@madambutterfly1997]

I appreciate that Yoshi-P and Koji Fox decided to go a different route with Athena's character. instead of trying to give her the same complexity and depth that other characters have, they decided to go the route of " fuck that, she's just crazy" And in a game like this where most of the antagonists have Shakespearean levels of complex it's nice to have the occasional token bog standard "I'm evil just cuz" antagonist(s)

[@StoutHelm]

I thought the same. We have a lot of female antagonists who have understandable and somewhat relatable journeys. Athena is just rotten to the core. Selfish, arrogant, manipulative. She's just bad. Which is totally fine.

[@acgearsandarms1343]

Also another point to add is that auracite amplifies the desires of their user. So it didn’t make Athena go bad. She was always that bad, it just made her worse.

[@ladynekotheblackcat]

A sound reminder in that is how bad mothers are. Selfish, manipulative, and often crazy. It grounds the villain. Most of us have seen or been subject to some who are like this. R/entitled parents

[@akumamakima2280]

Well her exposure to the heart of sabik warped her. So she wasn't just crazy.

[@Angarato86]

@@StoutHelmshe's not tho, heart of sabik can corrupt even the ancients. we really shouldnt fuck with auracite XD i still have FFT trauma

[@dane.2294]

My favorite part of the story is the implication that the Rejoinings and the Ascian Prime forms were based on Athena's fusion magic.

[@Kyzoren]

I do like that the... "Lahabreas"? all use chains in their magic, Eric as weapons, Laha to hold his gross body together, and Athena for explosives...

[@YUXKE]

My favorite part of the raid story was definitely the fight and eventual send off we had with Themis at the very end. And yes we need a dedicated video on the heart of Sabik lore bombs we got.

[@whirl2418]

I love love LOVE what they did with lahabrea's character in this raid, they FINALLY gave him depth that made me understand him and love him in not just-a-meme way

[@StoutHelm]

I agree! It’s nice to have all three paragons fleshed out in a dynamic way instead of the original, cliche Lahabrea we got.

[@dodu8234]

its been confirmed that Laha and Igeyorhm are actually cousins recently :3

[@iantaakalla8180]

That really makes the Ascian Prime battle horrible. You see them battle for the first time, and because they necessarily threaten your world, you have to casually delete Lahabrea’s sibling. Especially given this is the first time they have probably seriously worked together for eons.

[@nyminenemine]

I appreciate that they added to Lahabrea without redeeming him. I think that was an interesting choice, especially after Emet-Selch and Elidibus. We see who he was, what he was dealing with, and how he got to be the unstable madman who eventually caused his own death. And instead of having him in a state of clarity deny or defend himself, he simply acknowledges it, then sends you back to confirm what he did next. I appreciate tragic characters. I appreciate that he is one of them. But, my favorite part is where Themis calls us his friend and says everything was worth it. God. I cannot believe I like that absolute dork as much as I do. Fleeting Moment had me crying while raiding *yet again*.

[@MsKariYagami]

I honestly just felt that somethingt was always missing about Lhbrea. His backstory. And in the end we got it. I can understand why he did the things he did, even though he wet quite a bit insane over the centuries with the constant body-hopping and whatnot. I truly enjoyed Seeing Lahabrea in this light, so many nights ere spent speculating and this was truly more than i could have hoped for.

[@Lordi99]

ELIDIBUS FULL LORE WID WHEN??🗣🗣🔥 Don't think I forgot you said you'll do it after his character is fully wrapped up!!

[@StoutHelm]

I have an Urianger script ready to voice but there’s a lot from this patch I want to cover. Elidibus, the Heart of Sabik, Golbez. Y’all want Elidibus next?

[@Lordi99]

@@StoutHelm me personally, yea i'd love the elidibus video next but do whatever is best for u ofc.

[@SuperSnivMatt]

My favorite part of the Panamondium raids are twofold. The fight with Themis, because the music and his voice is just. Happy. He’s not able to control his actions but he always was interested in a bout with the Warrior of Light. And then, the goodbye. A voiced cutscene in a raid caught me off. Elidibus and Themis is one of my favorite characters in the game, and hearing him have closure, say goodbye, and thanking you for the one of countless stars that touched his life. I sobbed as hard as. Well 5.3. For the same reason. I was not prepared for all of that

[@eastbow6053]

themis: Look.... the light....

[@kimaclaret]

What a quick turnaround on this video! I love the depth this raid series gave a pretty shallow villain. Plus yet another Elidibus gut punch. I can't wait to hear your coverage of the Heart of Sabik.

[@StoutHelm]

I enjoyed the story so much, big motivation to bang this out. And everyone is asking for the heart and Elidibus!

[@blackh9604]

I am so glad they decided to flesh out Lahabrea! Really loved the storytelling in this raid. Awesome video!

[@StoutHelm]

Agreed, thanks friend!

[@corvidaegudmund1186]

Honestly, the thing that still creeps me out is how, looking back, the structure and social mores of the Ancients’ society allowed someone like Athena to hide so well for what sounds like a long time. It could be argued that it was due to her abilities as a manipulator, but think about it. The emphasis on emotional detachment, duty as an end in itself, and suppressing individuality worked into Athena’s plans quite well, plus the overall….would you call it trusting nature? Remember, since the reports were coming out of Pandemonium as normal, authorities were willing to write things off as normal. It was only because Themis himself became suspicious when he looked closer that there was any investigation to begin with. It would have taken years for Athena to establish herself as a noted researcher and trusted key warden. She even got Lahabrea to “marry” her, with out realizing her true nature until the damage was done. I guess I can’t help but wonder how many more Ancients like Athena there were, simply without the power or influence to do major damage like she did.

[@eastbow6053]

one is Hermes and he basically was the reason their civilization was destroyed, or should i say corrected itself cause being like him having the power to do this ultimately an other thing could have blown up in their faces. Its a good life lesson for us as well, progress is important but been careful should also be important, we have way to many crazy people running around and at some point one of them will stumble upon the nuke button

[@edelmishu3300]

Focusing on Lahabrea, this Raid series fixed for us the character and it was very well done imo. Also was completely thrilled of the origins of The Heart of Sabik. I can lookback to ARR and HW and see Lahabrea and think about all these experiences we had and what we know now and we can begin to comprehend more of his attitude and ambitions.

[@acgearsandarms1343]

One thing the Pandæmonium series didn’t explain though is Lahabrea not remembering us. As far as I recall, his memories were not tampered with so he should remember us during the events of ARR and HW. Curious.

[@StoutHelm]

Could be a side effect from all the vessel hopping. But that’s just speculation.

[@acgearsandarms1343]

@@StoutHelm Possible but without something concrete, I’m afraid we might never get a sure answer.

[@StoutHelm]

@@acgearsandarms1343 You're right. I like knowing the little details too but this will probably get left to interpretation as we drift away from ascians and ancients.

[@W4lhalla]

Well one shouldn't forget that it was a long ass time ago. Remember Amon who had all the memories of Fandaniel? He knew what happened in Ktisis Hyperborea and only after we told him that it was us he connected the dots. " So it was you, in Elpis". Its plausible and not far off that Lahabrea just forgot some details about Pandaemonium after such a long time and didn't connect the dots after seeing us. Also he probably wasn't considering time travel at all.

[@verdantmischief7092]

Another thing could probably be the madness he developed caused him to forget or even not care

[@user-ch7pp8gm4n]

The story and the reveal of both asceans are incredible. Also, during the last fight, the lyric and the music explained those can't be tell in the lines or dialogues. And surprisinly, the idea and madness became understandable, even toxic and polluting. The desire of knowledge and wisdom, turned to arrogance and ignorance. Unlike the INNOCENT in ShB, she made her own ultimate goal, over than anything, even the world as whole. She is truly a final form of old asceans.

[@oJaymey]

Pandemonium has been one of my favourite side stories of any game ever anything to do with the ascians gets me hyped but fighting alongside elidibus and lahabrea after what we’ve been through it gives an opposite perspective that i really like and makes me fall super in love with the characters. Seeing lahabrea the way he is here is almost unbelievable after what he does in arr but he admits himself for the start he may do it. P11 is by far one of my favourite fights too what feels like a friendly spar with an old enemy in Themis is a beautiful fight in the seats of the convocation it’s amazing

[@oJaymey]

And the fight with Athena too is amazing her design and boss room is fantastic she looks like a mix of Hydaelyn and Titania and her theme omg is amazing. And for the safety of the world she had to go. Erichthonios has also become a favourite of mine his story is painful but his growth through the raids is amazing like you said he breaks free of his chains to beat Athena and become his own man. The recording of his speech he sent us from the end times shows how much he grew he is awesome

[@StoutHelm]

P11 music is absolute flames. That’ll be the background track for when we discuss Elidibus soon. But I agree totally. A great closing chapter to a great raid series.

[@oJaymey]

Ooo I’m really looking forward to that video I’ve very much grown to love elidibus and for about my first hour of pandemonium I didn’t realise he was Themis looking back I feel a lil silly xD. That theme will be great for his video tho keep up the great work

[@liselot5932]

I really liked how Lahabrea was himself till the end; kinda still distant, work focussed. And Athena died like the awful person she was, no weird emotional twist at the end with her. Let the more sweet emotional scenes be for Erich and Themis. Was a smart choice. Not everyone needs the swelling emotional music farewell stuff in the game.

[@starwyvern010]

Thank you for making this! Lahabrea has been one of my favorite characters since we first met him , even back when he was Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain silly. I never in all that time thought he would get a full fleshed out backstory including introducing us to his family. Part one made me really think they were going to make him irredeemable, but the story was so much more than I could hope for.

[@mizuwisver9141]

The story is really good and the way it's pieced together felt like there was definite care to detail to it, I was surprised someone I know gave it a 2/10, but I don't think they remember things that well

[@StoutHelm]

Who gave it that score?

[@kisaragireion]

Take them to the Wolf’s Den! I’d like to put some sense into them. With my 1/8 K/D ratio lol

[@mizuwisver9141]

@@StoutHelm Ah, someone asked how the MSQ and raids were, and most of us said we enjoyed the, there were some who rated them very low

[@imacuttlefish6832]

What do you know, I was just in the process of NG+ing the Pandemonium story (for an analysis of my own hehe), when this dropped. Good timing!

[@StoutHelm]

It’s arguably the best raid story, with Eden being a close contender too.

[@imacuttlefish6832]

@@StoutHelm Ooh, what about Bahamut? Although it's arguably more of an MSQ storyline haha Either way, I agree, Pandemonium is way up there! (or maybe down there is more accurate? since its Pandemonium, heh)

[@kaidaw6546]

I genuinely appreciate this. Thank you. A friend has been away from the game is back now so he's making his way through EW. However, I realized that I should probably refresh myself on this story before he gets to it. Pandemonium is the first time where I didn't get to play the alliance story back to back. So EW was my first expansion where it was new to me and everyone else at the same time. A big drawback I found was how I do not remember what happened "last time" whenever the story updated and I legitimately had zero idea what the hell was going on due to it. I picked up some info just through context but it definitely just made the story confusing so this video cleared up SO MUCH for me! I don't know if it's just me specifically, the ADHD, or something else - but I have no idea how people follow these stories when they aren't able to be played 'back to back.' T_T

[@GinjaSama]

love how deeply you delve into lore! its such a chill humble way to appreciate the game.. keep making videos Stout! ^^

[@StoutHelm]

Thank you so much homie! I’m glad you enjoy the format. :)

[@KDBTV]

I prefer to call this raid series "How Lahabrea got his groove back"

[@foxeylela150]

Can you please, make a video about the heart of Sabik and Athena's final transformation, her savage final form, or the Arena where there is a giant snake eating itself? I would love the lore behind that.

[@StoutHelm]

I’m either doing the Heart or Elidibus next, depends on what folks want more.

[@IceQueen007]

I second wanting to know more about both.

[@IceQueen007]

@@StoutHelm Thank you so much for your lore videos. I really enjoy the way you explain and put things together in such an easy to understand way.

[@iamonthetube]

Heart!

[@acgearsandarms1343]

The savage content aren’t exactly lore canon. They’re like retelling a or what if scenarios. The normal raids are.

[@KeyBladeChaserVen]

Really excited for the heart of sabik video, along with the FFT connections

[@Sassjor]

Little late to the party but I just finished this pandeamonium story, and I will say it's conclusion eleventh and twelth circle as it gave us closure on both Themis/Elidibus and lahabrea, I also if what they implied about the heart of Sabik is true, this would explain Laha's more unhinged persona later on, as the heart has a tendacy to bring out the worst in people. I enjoyed how he also chose his new successor. Speaking of all this theme and family am I the only one who feels the Themis and Venat look like they might be related?

[@zorkqueen7]

This is an absolutely wonderful story arc! I'm looking forward to your vid on Themis and the Heart of Sabik.

[@Puunyamya]

I LOVED this Raid. More then any other. It was a beautiful tragedy. I was happy they fleshed out Lahabrea more, and I was surprised to find myself balling at the end for him along with Eric. Even more then I cried for Themis, and I consider him my son! Then again I feel he got true closure and was happy at the end. Anyways. Lahabrea doing what he though right for his son in the beginning but being shown it was doing harm to him, THEN acknowledging that and correcting his ways and supporting his son... just break my heart with these characters SE! I really like Lahabrea by the end, I see him as a good dad. Not perfect, but he did learn! I choke up when think of father and son still. I loved it. And in the end, Lahabrea came to respect his son and support him. Just thinking that he ripped his soul in half to help his son and star, makes him loosing himself in the future much more understandable and painful. Like I get it... and I'm gonna cry again. People want someone to hate, they don't want to redeem bad guys. I don't think this is redeeming at all. But I love when there is this kind of background, it give the characters depth. The Ancients were not a perfect people as we can see with Athena. But they really loved the star, and were willing to sacrifice so much. That is why I find the Ancients and Convocation members to be my favorite part of this game. I can't wait until you do a Themis video.

[@glaba24]

Hope to see you make the Heart of Sabik video sometime, its one of those things in xiv that I never really followed or understood very well. I would also be super excited for an Elidibus vid too though given how much more attention I paid to him, I don't "need" it as much as the Heart of Sabik one lmao.

[@alexandraslankard5032]

Anxiously awaiting a new video. 10 days is too long!

[@merabledawnspark5827]

For a moment, I thought Athena was a thrall and was manipulated, but no. She’s just crazy and evil. Hermes, despite his broken shard committing that horrible thing in EW, at least the whole had some care. Athena was someone that really wanted her way and nothing more. As for Lahabrea, I think he does end up returning to the Aetherial Sea since Athena did say she plucked the souls that resided there was well give partial their memory. That’s how the Elidibus we know, despite facing him as an enemy a couple of times, he was at peace and remembers how we faced him on those said occasions. He went as far as he regrets nothing and we do feel really happy for him: For all he did, there was a reasoning behind it, being his duty was above else. In fact, a key thing in the 11th circle is that despite him being an enemy again, he gave a positivity despite him being chained. He took an opportunity to face us and wanted to see how strong we are (that and encourage us to keep going). If you compare to all the fights we faced him, the theme for it was… hopeful. It’s almost the same as Aumorot, but rather than despair, it was uplifting. There was also a small part of Ultima Thule being played. I was fully expected her either having a reason be complex or perhaps she was a slave, but no. She was evil and… it’s a bit refreshing just seeing someone do that XD Makes us hate her more and wanting to stop her

[@BroadwayRonMexico]

Hermes at least wasnt always broken, and if the Ancients didnt seem to have a complete blind spot towards mental health issues (despite having such great knowledge about so many other things), he probably would have been fine (really, he probably would have also been fine if he had a different job or even just the right friend). Athena was born broken and no amount of help or different circumstances would have made her anything other than what we see her as.

[@Dusty_Inkwell]

I’m really glad for this raid series. I’m absolutely in love with it. I despised Lahabrea before, but now with all this new context and story I came to respect him. It was a bit the same with Emet-Selch for me. And after playing endwalker he has become my most loved character in the whole damn universe. I love it when story writing makes me hate a character for quite a long time and then they succeed in having me do a complete 180 with the revelations. I’m praying so hard that we will get more content with all of them in one way or another. The ancients are my top reason for loving this game so much and I just want more story about the old times. I have pages full of unanswered questions. Just imagine the old, bustling and lively Amaurot as a new city hub… that’s what my wet dreams are made of (besides being full of emet husbando…ahem)

[@vettir]

One version of Ericthonios has Hephaestus assaulting Athena, not completely successfully, and Ericthonios is born from her thigh.

[@StoutHelm]

Correct. I couldn’t think of a way to address this specifically without detracting from the message I wanted to talk about in the video. So I left it out.

[@crowdemon_archives]

Born from thigh is a bit concerning ngl, like a very weird ectopic pregnancy 😂

[@vettir]

@@crowdemon_archives no weirder than splitting the head open.

[@astral_ragtime5365]

There's something to be said here about the cycle of abuse and how just ONE abuser can cause immeasurable damage as the wake of their harm spreads outwards past the initial victims. While a lot of it is retroactive with the benefit of hindsight here, I do think it fits quite well with the themes in the raid. It was also nice to get some closure with Elidibus.

[@AthenaPrime]

For me, the parallels between Athena and Venat were most powerful. Athena sought godhood for her own edification--to prove herself right rather than test her hypothesis--and sought "perfection" in the beings she created or manipulated in the course of her quest, but those "perfect" beings were horribly hideous and the creation of each one required mutilation of their bodies and their souls to meet Athena's ideals of "perfection. Venat (aka Crystal Mommy, LOL) sought and became the goddess/primal Hydaelyn through the sacrifice of her own Self and ego to save the star from a universe-ending oblivion through *avoiding* perfection. Rather, she took their false perfection away--she saw the deep fissures in their "perfect" society and knew that perfection is a lie--in order that they could become better on their own without the crutch of a "perfect" society that was clearly not very perfect at all, given that the only member with enough empathy to question it was so upset with its shortcomings that he was subconsciously ready to torch the whole universe over it. Nothing the Ancients made under that false premise of perfection could ever hope to overcome the seed of its own destruction, left to flourish in its own blind spot. It had to come in from an outside perspective. Whereas Athena had no room for outside perspectives--she wanted to be a god and make all of creation in her own image--blind spots and all.

[@cosmichi-fi3308]

Me: *Sees Athena's true personality* Also me: Use me. Step on me dommy mommy.

[@StoutHelm]

Some of y’all need Hydaelyn.

[@Beathemighty]

​@@StoutHelm So basically the same thing😂

[@steakdriven]

I can't be the only one disappointed that the design of the Heart of Sabik turned out to be basically just a scuffed chunk of burnt iron.

[@StoutHelm]

I have a feeling it’s going to play a part in something to come. I love them bringing back something from ARR, but that Ultima mention and reference to how old the heart is… there’s a lot more story to be told.

[@glaba24]

While it is a little bit of a let down with how it looks, another way I think about it is that its kinda chilling how such a powerful and dangerous object almost looks like an everyday rock.

[@henryjones411]

See, it's called the "Heart" of Sabik because it is quite literally shaped like a heart (the organ kind of heart anyways).

[@stevenbobo6464]

What type of armor was the warrior of light, your character was wearing? the armor looks something out Warhammer?!?

[@StoutHelm]

Lost Allagan set you can get with Wolf Marks in the Wolves Den!

[@Raionhardt]

I was kinda hoping for pandemonium to go a different route based on the information we had in the first tier. Like lahabrea being obsessed with trying to resurrect athena, only to make an abomination of her thats like the first voidscent or something. My only correct assumption was that athena would be the final boss of the raid series

[@StoutHelm]

That seemed like the way it would go. I also know a lot of people speculated that Ericthonios would replace Lahabrea but that didn’t quite happen.

[@twilightexposure8431]

Family drama. Yikes. Lahabrea isnt all that good of a dad either, i dont think. We really dod most of the work while he kinda just sat back. And the drunk uncle (Hephaestus) not EVEN going to say anything about him... Jesus christ. This was all Bad parenting, bad family dynamics.

[@Beathemighty]

I am appalled that every one hates Athena for lying , manpuating , and fundamentally transforming everyone around her yet gives Venat a pass for doing almost the exact same thing.

[@kzkaa.]

Athena did it for herself. Venat did it for everyone around her. They are not the same.