How many viable playstyles ACTUALLY exist in CLASSLESS WoW? | Project Ascension League 3 |

[@Mcdoubles]

Just a quick video with some thoughts on the viability of all of the legendary enchants on Ascension today. Will be doing more progression soon. Hope you guys enjoy! edit: Oh, also the takeaway from this video is that there are an ENORMOUS amount of useless enchants - don't hyper focus on the semantics of whether or not you'd personally put a spec in one category over another - that's just a trap. Focus on the fact that there are literally five, six, or even seven dozen legendary enchants in game that are 100% not useable. I changed the thumbnail slightly to reflect the focus since so many people got got on accident in the comments.

[@xav3212]

Just because you think a LRE is not vialbe, doesn't mean it is. A lot of LRE can pull minimum req for all asc raids. I agree there are a lot of bad LRE's, but I dont agree with what you define as viable/not viable

[@TJXD]

@@xav3212 you're misinterpreting what he's getting at, there's literally those Fel LREs that are trash all the LREs that involve casting a random spell of said class, it's moronic there's tons of LREs that people think oh this looks fun then find out after putting work in to gear it, find out their builds suck

[@sadarot]

@@TJXD wouldn't a Video directly talking about some of the bad ones, with ideas on how to change them, be better? Because this Video mainly showed a Ranking based on missing knowledge and strange criterias. Like, what if I manage to run a +5 without any Legendary res. That would mean, that the exact same build could use prettymuch every of the "Not viable" res and prove that they all are at least in "somewhat viable"

[@xav3212]

@@TJXD Read the last line of my comment. Seems you're misinterpreting my comment.

[@marcoaussems4954]

i feel like you focus on pve mythics etc too much theres plenty of specs ive never even heard you mention like ever mainly because they are pvp i feel like theres dozens of viable builds just not all are made for pve or topping the meters per se not hating love the content but still ty branching out to pvp a bit more allot of us play that more than mythics because its a nightmare to get a tank to mythic

[@Xeneos]

I see that you have written that the main take away from the video should be the amount of unusable enchants there are but the amount of misinformation about spec/builds in this video is wild.... A lot of the specs that were listed as non viable are actually top tier and I have personally played with people running those specs and clearing the highest tier content. I can provide a list with examples if you like :) I have already read comments here from new players saying that the lack of viable specs is off putting and that they may not continue. I'm sure that wasn't the intention of the video but it seems like you haven't done any research into what's actually being played at the moment. I think if you look closer you will see that there is a lot more viable specs.

[@sailingcreek]

Exactly.

[@DM-tw6vd]

put it into the hero arch!

[@Xeneos]

@@DM-tw6vd I will give you some examples of very good builds that are already there: (build name - who to look up) Midnight Flames - Nutspriester Molten Earth - Exnine Cauterizing Flames - Chikin Pretty much any tank spec - Ynae Forbidden Technique -Absolim/ Kromsters YT video Locust hunter - Frinto/Cancerina CS Pally - Maldithar Spell Shredder - Opto Ice Lash - Opto Elemental Assassin - Aftermath I can post more at some point but these are the ones I could get off the top of my head

[@ninjii12]

It's McDoubles, what do you expect? Lmao, hes one of the most hated players on ascension and KoS for tons of people, all he has is shit takes. "Well why are you here then?" Someone linked this to me, its fucking Mcdoubles, king of shit takes.

[@serraramayfield9230]

@@ninjii12 I've learned about Ascension...how good is it compared to regular WoW?

[@shorte9278]

Midnight flames and twilight paragon are pumping 7k+ but other than that, I agree a lot of enchants are a bit outdated.

[@ScofaUK]

Twilight paragon is S tier, again wrong wrong wrong

[@alex-dh8zy]

@@ScofaUK to be fair this video was made before it became so prevelant

[@ScofaUK]

@@alex-dh8zy people were using Twilight Paragon when SSC/TK first Released on Area 52, guy in guild was doing 14k dps with it, i was doing 12-20k dps using Forbiden Tech. I spent 4 days refining FT on a target dummie Min/Max the crap out of the burst window. This was Pre 22 as i took a break 28/01/22. Since coming back you cant use it on target dummies as it Teleports you to the base of the dummie which is in the floor

[@alex-dh8zy]

@@ScofaUK ah, mcdoubles primarily plays on alar so his video is relative to that which did not have bc at the time.

[@2dollarchickenwings689]

​@@ScofaUK 12k with Forbidden Technique? How the hell do you people do it...

[@Jazerade]

Could you make another one of these for the new season? Would love to hear your take on pvp/pve Legendary RE's again..

[@Wackagragles]

Thank you for making this video and I feel like I could write an essay on this subject. Mal'ganis this season was my first real go at Ascension. For a couple weeks I spent hours and hours theorycrafting builds. The vast majority of my attempts were Agi builds. My legendary page was the size of yours. I ran into 3 issues. 1) It is completely unclear how many spells/abilities and REs scale and interact. The Ascenison website has some spell coefficients listed somewhere on a builder, but not even half of the abilities have scaling listed. What do Arcane Shot or Hammer of the Righteous scale with? How does Explosive Shot work? What spell from Maelstrom Weapon will scale better? How do pets scale and do the Epic REs that change pet damage affect this? I have no idea. This is not even scratching the surface of how confusing RE scaling is. Does Spell Shredder give Rend different scaling since it becomes multiple elements? Who knows? And, to go along with this, I don't know what hit and expertise caps are, and this and many other seemingly obvious questions are a mystery. 2) There is a huge discrepancy between what people claim they can achieve and what most builds you will make can achieve. Clearly, there are some people "in the know" and others are not. I hear Prophet of Wrath is viable. I spend hours trying to figure out how to make it work. I can achieve ~3k uninterrupted dps on a target dummy with my caster. I'm happy. But then I go do Onyxia, and my build doesn't function as I can't just turret. Then, I see people claiming they are pulling 4, 5, 6, 7k dps with the same RE. I can't fathom how. 3) And this brings us to your video. Most REs just won't perform. I don't know if I'm doing something wrong or if the RE just doesn't work. The biggest issue with this is that as a new player, I will spend all of my resources to try a couple builds and then I'll be stuck without anything functional. I was happy when I found Prophet of Wrath and did 3k. My other builds I tried wouldn't even break 2k. Reality then hits. The point of the server to me is to create and experiment and do something crazy. When I find that 75% of those experiments (REs to try) fail from the onset, and the only way I can succeed is to copy a more 'viable' build (which the best players will have under wraps anyways), why do I even bother? If I have to copy, I'll just go play real WoW.

[@Mcdoubles]

Yeah I'm with you mate. A lot of people missed the point big time with this video and that's a big bummer for me. I don't think people understand that for them, throwing an ignorant comment out is nothing, but when I sit on the other end and receive 20 of the same ones (regardless of the validity) it stings. These are people who watch me after all and I'd like us to be on the same wavelength. I agree with all your points. The game is very unclear and that's basically all I do is try to make it accessible to new players and give my thought process to people when I make builds. It's not always perfect, but it's better than making some extremely complex build, just giving you the talents, and telling you to copy me like a drone as if I'm just better than you by default since I edited some clips and decided to think hard about a spec one day. I just want more people to enjoy the game, y'know? Check out the Ascension wiki for some insight on spell hit/hit caps and expertise caps and some of that information. Soon there may even be a Thottbot-esque website for Ascension that is currently in the potential-works as well and hopefully that will help answer peoples questions in the future.

[@vx8431]

I'd say its the will to do your own theorycraft that gets in the way of pulling the numbers that some people do. One got to realize that a lot of people are just better at figuring out specs than oneself so if one really want to do well is to follow the stream and pick something that someone else has already perfected. Thats something I noticed in this video with three specs McD didn't see as viable but the problem is they are viable but his theorycraft and playstyle isn't. Spell Shredder, Blood Venom and Arcane Gunslinger being the REs in question.

[@robinsvensson9041]

@@Mcdoubles You just "try to make it accessible to new players" by turning them away from several of the best RE's though. I dunno if that's an act of kindness tbf. While misinforming players you're also leading on that Ascension has bigger issues than it does when it comes to balance and content imo.

[@GamingNormaly]

Wifeofzugzug pulls 9-11k ST in raids, but that is with probably 80+ il.

[@Barraind.Faylestar]

1 is my biggest problem trying to make builds. Turns your x into y. Ok, but does it still benefit from things that modify x? What's the new resource cost? Scaling? Cooldown? Cast time? Does my new nature slam benefit from slam cast reduction? Does it chain into a free bloodthirst? Can I get away with as little elememtal'ing as possible in the thunder slam build because fuck 17% hit when 8 is super easy? I have no idea. Makes it hard to figure out build loops and sequencing without already having the build looped and sequenced, especially when that determines 30% of your talent choices.

[@jordgubbens4265]

I feel like there should be a different bracket that is "only for PvP" as those should not be buffed or changed if they are healthy for PvP, I find it quite nice to have certain speccs that are oriented just for one aspect but that might be an unpopular opinion.

[@Dynamo33]

The problem with WoW is that the PvE systems and PvP systems are all in there at the same time. I believe a system like Guild Wars 2, where the PvP specs and the mechanics are balanced separate from PvE, is best. Unfortunately, I don't think it could be done with Ascension's scripting.

[@jordgubbens4265]

@@Dynamo33 not sure I would enjoy that as it would feel like I'm playing two different specs when I'm in pve and pvp

[@Dynamo33]

@@jordgubbens4265 I get your point, but to me being able to keep the class fiction you're going for and still be viable in both PvE and PvP is more important.

[@offmetagamer5887]

@@Dynamo33 they already do this, a lot of spells/abilities already do reduced damage in PvP. Smite is a good example, it does something like 20% damage against players and is no longer terribly good in PvP because of that. The real issue is not whether it is possible due to technological limitations but limited manpower. Given infinite time it would be lovely to have every spec perfectly balanced for both PvE and PvP but that's just not realistic. So instead they make the same reasonable concession that every business ultimately does and focus on a handful of specs for both of those styles of play and the rest gets a bit dusty over time.

[@sadarot]

I like how allmost our entire raid setup is under "Not viable" or "allmost viable" Guess thats why we only got 3/6 realm firsts in aq20 ascended

[@sodapopinski8064]

This is why I haven't played ascension in years. The whole legendary system is unapproachable for the "pick it up and give it a go" crowd. There's sooooooo many things that can go wrong if you don't pick the "correct" skills and talents, and legendaries add such a ridiculous layer of complexity to the system that I can't fathom sorting through them only to find out it sucks. Works for some, but a lot of us don't have the kind of playtime to fail multiple chars. The concept of "pick stuff that seems to synergize well" that was the initial appeal simply doesn't exist anymore, and if you try to be creative, you're going to brick a lot of characters before submitting to a build someone posted online. At that point, all they've done is create a handful of great classes locked behind the illusion of choice, but in reality it's a system that fosters gimped builds (ie people you can feel better than, whether on dps charts or in pvp). Because at least in retail wow, you can pick up any class and know it's viable end game, and you can learn along the way without wasting time/characters. I love what Ascension promises, but imo it failed to deliver "classless" the instant it created legendary enchants and streamlined people into very specific builds.

[@Mcdoubles]

I'm actually considering trying some M+ and raiding in retail but the general consensus has been negative so I'm not too sure. But Ascensions new builds haven't really "hooked" me because a lot of them feel like rehashes of old builds (Lava Lash->Molten Earth or Wind Rager->Titanic Mutilate or any of the caster builds which all sort of spam the same things that previous LRE's also required you to spam but they just have a few % points in different abilities on Skada)

[@jfklmk13447]

If the reason why you haven't been playing Ascension is cause you're too overwhelmed with LRE's then that's pathetic lol

[@sodapopinski8064]

@@Mcdoubles yeah I imagine the community you created here is mostly people not interested in retail. It's tough with Ascension since the desire is to always innovate and add in something new, but imo the power differential between a good legendary and a bad one is waaaayyy too massive, essentially creating classes instead of an extra mechanic to add some power in. I'd personally rather see legendaries drastically reduced in power so they enhance classless, rather than become the very thing you build around.

[@sodapopinski8064]

@@jfklmk13447 wow you sure told me. Guess it's time to quit the KZbins!

[@dragone521]

@@sodapopinski8064 i would watch some raiding and pvp from my man's mcdoubles all day shit they need to just bring back high risk being better cause I love it when he yoinks peoples gear is funny

[@grimsauce]

One of my biggest annoyances is that, if you're a healer or caster dps, every single meta build requires either moonkin or tree of life forms. So annoying to have everyone in a raid group all look the same

[@peteterry8563]

why aren't there more upvotes on this comment?? For real I haven't played the new season enough to know if there's anything new from that. I bet not.

[@grievous79]

one of the annoying things when trying to make builds in ascension for me is that they seem to have a hard on for rogue mechanics. I was inspired to seek out melee dps builds similar to my fave enhance shaman in normal wow but every seconds melee RE is a combo point/finisher thing. I was excited for white walker until I realised that it has THREE seperate combo finishers, two of which you have to overlay just to play the spec. I'm pretty simple, I wanna hit buttons and not have to micro manage 14 different self buffs. that's my rant anyway.

[@Mcdoubles]

AGREED. Many of these specs require A LOT of micromanaging and it feels like it's forced and they should focus more on smooth rotations and gameplay. At this point the talents and enchants people take are not very creative and that can be okay as long as there is A LOT of build variety to choose from and so that's what I'm hoping they do by reworking a lot of these old legendary enchants. Another thing I noticed is that they really have a thing for raiding and just straight ST damage (that often doesn't translate into PvP or gets nerfed once someone finds some way to abuse it). But the thing is I would bet your average player only runs pug raids to get the free epics and then focuses on BGs and Mythic +, neither of which are benefiting from all of these enchants being mostly useless right now.

[@53rp3nt53mbr4c3]

Well if that's true they sure hate poisons. At this point i will be able to play a "true rogue" on retail sooner than on ascension! A "true rogue" uses poisons, bleeds and daggers. Not MoS and not bloody execute with BnG! in fact it's utterly ridiculous that in such a long time they did not manage to make a viable assassination rogue+ ! Instead they taunt me with everything but that... Some might realize who is writing this and to those i say: i miss you guys but i no longer miss playing the game i will be reliving my good old rogue days on classic wrath instead best of luck in your raiding endeavours i'm proud to see how you have grown! :rogue:

[@BaMnupKo]

@@53rp3nt53mbr4c3 im playing hemo ambush assuaging shadows, though im using rockbiter, its about 6k st dps selfbuffed with no consumables in aqt gear so not quite up there with the top builds but its fine

[@Xero1of1]

You should make a solo-dungeon clearing character. See how many different builds you can come up with that could clear BRD or LBRS or something along those lines. That would give you quite a few videos and imo, it's actually kinda fun.

[@christopherbradyhardin4282]

It would be super cool if ascension made a solo dungeon que for dungeon finder and they scaled it down just a little bit or even solo keystones would be actually sick.

[@MATCHLESS789]

I just started playing here and from what I've heard about the server I imagined almost Diablo/PoE esque game - mostly solo focused.

[@shambleshef]

I completely agree, I made a build for doing stuff like this, would be awesome to see other people's approach

[@chikinnoodles1078]

I'm glad you clarified that this was your opinion on viable DPS enchants. From a healing perspective most of the RE's are in the viable with a cavate, with a lot of miss-information surrounding them. Also there is a complete lack of supportive (epic) RE's for healers.

[@34125867]

Even for DPS most of these are viable with caveat, since you can macro swap weapons with a different LRE. Like you can use Paratrooper and just weaponswap to your main LRE while getting the utility from Paratrooper.

[@Piatex]

Ok, so, someone told me you passed some of the stuff here as "not viable", most of it really not being played because the playstyle is clunky and not as rewarding as other similiar REs, BUT, most of them are still viable, midnight flames pulls 8k+ st at 70 ilvl, controlled burn is close to 11k st, most casters are generally single target due to the nature of melee having all their abilities being able to cleave with a twist, casters dont have that privilage and need to invest into their aoe which sucks anyway in the end because of nerfs due to group pvp fights. If you really believe that molten earth is not viable, i dont think you've ever seen exnine play his build, like ever. Just watch some of the m+ runners. Ty for attention.

[@DM-tw6vd]

I assume molten earth just goes in the "not as good as lava sweep" right?

[@-a-s-a-s-]

99% of people are not doing 8k st with midnight flames or 11k with controlled burn at 70 (or even 80) ilvl. Maybe top, top like 1% of players are doing this but it certainly is not the norm.

[@Piatex]

@@DM-tw6vd if you think 4k st, 35k aoe is in the same barrel as lava sweep, sure its a lesser single target RE, but for AoE in m+ nothing beats it, and i mean nothing

[@Piatex]

@@-a-s-a-s- the thing with those REs are, they are REALLY easy to get going. Both of them start working around 64 ilvl once you start getting heroic/mythic gear and follow the correct build (crit oriented early on, dmg % oriented with better gear). Pre mc i shared this build and most people who followed it pulled at the very least 5k st. Build is no longer on builder thanks to patented ascension UI causing it to be deleted by accident xD Cant be really bother to remake the 2.4k characters description

[@-a-s-a-s-]

@@Piatex Like I said, as someone who runs every ascended raid and 30s on multiple characters, I can tell you the numbers you touted in your original post just aren't right. Again, maybe 1% of players are hitting those numbers with those builds/ilvls.

[@mr.mikaeel6264]

Here is the list of viable without caviate. Got 14 here, think 2 of them are single target so then indeed leaves the 12. Correct me if i'm wrong: Lava sweep Heavy weight Blood and guts (single target) Prophet of wrath One with the light Mana fiend (single target?) Thunder slam Wind rager Elemental destruction Frozen chaos Seething flames Snowblind Harbringer of pestilence Pure shadow

[@Dea07thox]

Thank you very much for this video. I myself keep prestiging to try out many meta or non meta builds. Viability is definitely an issue. And not only that, there is many builds that are missing any enchant whatsoever. Developers should make REs rework for sure. Also enchants should be more simple to cover a big bunch of builds and not to pin point a specific thing only. Keep up the good good work :)

[@Mcdoubles]

Glad I could help

[@drumlineking07]

A LOT of enchants have been reworked. Would be nice to see an updated list

[@mudwagon6798]

Hey mate, You make some valid points surely once an Lego Re is a few seasons old it should drop down a purple. Further to this I think people love in this game love theory crafting builds and trying them out. But that fact the people are asking for Ilvl and what build shows how far the game is gone into the Meta spec world.

[@Pancakedawgz]

Killed a world boss yesterday and there was a knight of the eclipse user getting 30k+ wrath crits. Can anyone explain that?

[@bazzok123]

How do you count MoS as not viable? It pumps ST in raids

[@Mcdoubles]

The way I laid it out in the video was that the viable specs are the ones that can do everything well and at the highest level, not just ST or AoE. If it takes a lot of pointless effort for no real gain, it's not viable. If it's doing what the viable specs do just not as well, it's almost viable.

[@bazzok123]

@@Mcdoubles idk i would understand if we were talking m+, but in General you want some high ST builds in ascended rading. And MoS takes the rogue tier set token which no one else uses up till naxx ascended. Yes there is other builds that does both aoe and st to a conpetative level, and I agree with the General statement of the video. But the way you outright dissmissed some great LRE's could be hurtful for the health of the server as you have a big audience and with videos like this you run the risk of pushing the same degenerate missinformed META retail suffers from. Where "a" or "b" tier specs get completely ignored by the playerbase. Which would only hurt the casual playerbase looking to get in to ascended rading as most of us that clear everything on ascended already know there's loads of viable picks

[@Tylerbrave]

There is some fault on us as players I never like the “you must do X dps at all times” a lot of groups go for as there will always be variables that affects someone’s dps numbers. Obviously changes are needed though on ascensions side so I blame both players and ascension team for “viability”

[@eeshtee5342]

yeah, the server is amazing and i love all the custom stuff they created, but it's kinda pointless when more than half of it is just filler. I mean the game is unbalanced anyways and it's not like giving us more viable builds to enjoy would disrupt everything, we would just have more fun...

[@DefianceOrDishonor]

But how can they ever hope to balance all the "filler" if it didn't exist. It gives them stuff to fine tune and adjust over time.

[@Mcdoubles]

Over how much time? There are at least 60-70 LRE's that are so far below the pack that they make builds that barely skirt by look god tier and they've actually existed in a poor state for a year or more depending on the RE. That's probably not right.

[@marianboicuc4981]

Ita not all about deeps , leveling , twinks pvp , farming builds

[@ynaeascension9006]

There are 150 legendary REs - of which 50 - 70 are perfectly viable - are they the best? No, but far from useless. That leaves you with plenty to play around with.

[@cuneytunsal5422]

@@ynaeascension9006 at most the number is 20 maybe 25, definitely not 70 tho.

[@highlife6026]

Could you list the viable speccs somewhere? Thanks for the Video and your Work :).

[@oaksmadoaks]

exactly lol

[@LuxGamer4ever]

A very simple thing for example that triggered me more than it should have: Martial crescendo. When you are at 10 stacks, they fall off if you don't continue using different physical abilities. In my opinion the duration should refresh once you reach 10 stacks and just continue using physical only. Like WHYY do the stacks have to fall off?????

[@krumiz1559]

Yea most of the legendaries that you said is not viable, actually is really good and viable to play.

[@dach829]

All the hunter abilities that only effect beast should just effect pets more diverse?

[@Narklas_unavailable]

lol what are you even saying?! demolisher is S+ viable XDD the specc increases your overall groups DPS massively and can pull very good numbers on its own. Primordial fury is also not as bad as you say. consumed by fire is sick dps if you are good, shit outdps most meta speccs in single and multitarget. ambidextrous is also viable. Ice lash is semi viable, even if its not as good as all those pally builds. i havent played all of those speccs you said were not viable whatsoever, but seeing how you say whats bad while its actually top tier makes this hardly a accurate information. You are right in one point tho... ascension has alot of bad legendary enchants (or simply outdated ones), but ppl wouldnt be very happy if they just got removed whatsoever :) Just plz dont write off speccs you dont see as not viable... some are just harder to play (demolisher and consumed by fire are prime examples of this)

[@jokkedahle8526]

My guy, you are gonna have to try the game at the highest levels before doing this vid. Alot! Of the builds u insta mark as «not viable» are S tier at m30/ asc realm first riding For example: Spell shredders that know how to play the build does 6k on dummy

[@Mcdoubles]

Hey man, there have been quite a lot of elitist replies like yours on this vid! The video had nothing to do with my opinion on the builds that would be considered average->good, it was more of a bonus because it's required in order to put everything into perspective. The perspective is that 3/4ths of the LRE's are simply not viable, regardless of whose opinion you listen too. Hope that makes sense!

[@MerigoldAscension]

@@Mcdoubles That's because people who do clear the hardest content in the game disagree with your "3/4" ratio of unviable REs. The difficulty on Ascension doesn't push you into only being able to play the top percentile specs, that is a strictly player enforced meta. The vast majority of the REs you mentioned as unviable can easily clear m30 or Ascended raids. Viable and optimal are very different concepts. The amount of a actually unviable REs for PVE (excluding pvp focused LREs) is probably closer to 1/10 at worst

[@jokkedahle8526]

@@MerigoldAscension Couldnt have said it better myself. and @Mcdoubles i love your content, i just think this exact video sends out a "bad" message to new players.

[@SJQVlogs]

@@Mcdoubles this video did literally nothing to convey the message that "entry level ilvl 62 turbo casual hardstuck m0's shouldnt use these specs" because everything passed ilvl 67 with good gear changes how a TON of these specs work.

[@amassofatoms]

Been loving my elemental assassin build with swashbuckler see some crazy single target damage

[@samregragui7326]

where is the list of that 12? Please

[@Ash-bd6jz]

just got started at 60. looking to build a dragon slam build. any tips for new pve focused player at all mate?

[@Pulse.]

Thanks for taking the time to go through and do this one by one, I don’t PvE myself I only PvP but this is a great insight into the overall state of balance in Ascension. Obviously the amount of viable enchants is different for PvP vs. PvE but either way it kinda sucks that so few enchants are actually viable (and there are even less if we’re talking PvP). I think we’re a little overdue for a major rework patch that addresses all of the enchants and even removes some of the now redundant ones or combines them with their stronger counterparts. (Like combining controlled destruction with wild felfire) There would no doubt be some OP amalgamations as a result of that but I think it would be easy to balance using the percentage bonuses for abilities that come with the enchants. (Like the backstab modifier on elemental assassin)

[@TheViper277]

What do you think are some viable REs for pvp mostly in 2s/1s and is there a healing RE that is good for PvP?

[@Pulse.]

@@TheViper277 I play on Area 52 the free pick realm and in general you want to stay away from legendaries that make you build up a bunch of stacks before letting you "unlock" your damage (there can be exceptions to this but generally they arent that great because of the pace of PvP) but from what ive seen some good casters are Whispers of the Old Gods shadow dots, Controlled Burn Chaos Bolt, Frost Bomb is really reliable and Prophet of Wrath is probably good just based on the sheer amount of damage it can do (I know its good in the battlegrounds though). As far as melees go you could try something like Demolisher (I saw another streamer fight against that around 2500 rating), Blood and Guts bleed rogue is supposed to be really good in 1v1s and is focused around getting resets after you get full bleeds on someone, Stormborn is also really good I had someone show me his build and he was able to nearly 1 shot me in the opener. Another build for melees would be Predator's Wrath, Wrath cat build but im not sure if that has been nerfed yet. and then for healers I know that nature healers have pretty much been the best for a while now but I heard that the Holy Spirit RE is supposed to be very strong in PvP right now. I've been messing around with Champion of Justice myself and the healing on other targets is great but its not really able to play as a melee healer like the enchant would lead you to believe and it doesnt do a great job of keeping itself alive since you cant adorn yourself.

[@TheViper277]

@@Pulse. thank you so much for your insight I will certainly try out the Holy spirit RE while trying to perfect my nature healer build. Again thank you!

[@Pulse.]

@@TheViper277 oh for sure, I know it was a bit long but I’m glad it helped 😁

[@TheViper277]

@@Pulse. What RE would you recommend for a riptide nature healer or is it better to go with hots? PvP-wise

[@bpurdx]

this video concept is great, really enjoyed it thanks for sharing

[@HLevkov]

I realize that you had to cover a pretty significant amount of enchants in a short video but I'd love to hear your in-depth reasoning for most of these. I am pretty new to the server and am not that well-versed with the meta, so any advice is welcome. Personally, I run with an Ambidextrous build but with Sudden Death Execute instead of Heroic Strike and at 103 ilvl I manage to pull 3K dps ST in dungeons, which I've been told is a decent amount (though I will admit the AoE is a bit lacking). I've also seen videos of Opto pulling 11k with a similar build, which does seem like a good amount as well. So I am a bit surprised that your verdict is that Ambidextrous is not viable and would like to know more.

[@ScofaUK]

The reason is because he is wrong mate. People use it in raids alot

[@dont.tread.on.me.6054]

My guy!! Forbidden Tech is actually really good just to let you know! Was ilvl 68 doing 4.8k ST. Only thing is its hunter with ambush spam every 35 seconds XD great vid overall and they need to revamp those RE's for SURE

[@Mcdoubles]

That's great man! I assume the AoE dps is quite low though, right? It also has positional requirements which are sometimes pretty bad to play with but I can definitely see it doing strong ST dps.

[@dont.tread.on.me.6054]

@@Mcdoubles aoe with rain of arrows and explo shot isnt bad but it goes back to what you said why play FT when you can play lava sweep or wind ranger 😂😂

[@Japninja808]

Thanks for putting the LREs in perspective and you have an interesting perspective on the matter. This is an good starting point to parse out the LREs if I wanted to make a character to push high mythic keys or ascended raiding. However, based off trying some of these LREs and what’s mentioned in the comments, it seems like the LREs you mentioned as being “viable” are more so just the easiest to build and play with the biggest DPS payoff. Definitely agree a lot of them are wonky at best that need a lot more support but I think there are more that could work with a lot of time/effort/skill.

[@Wowzombie15]

I hope project ascension will soon make enchants tied to enslave demons and dominated undead specifically, we got enough hunter pet enchants

[@borislavalexandrov4281]

Could you please make a video with good hunter builds/combinations? Because currently hunter seems very off meta. I tried to make hunter good, however it was extremely hard to make it work ..

[@matteociulli2746]

Thanks for this video!! I started playing Ascension with Mal’Ganis and what i’ve concluded 2 days ago is that you are completely right, i was choosing build with playstyles i love. The problem is that when you play an off-meta LRE ppl complain when u dont perform the way they expect you to. I’ve 75ilvl but i can do 4k with my int-based hot hands melee build, any other meta build with my gear would be 6-7k. On Ascension there in only dps to judge if a build is good or not, in retail Wotlk it was different. Many classes had unique buffs and even though they brought 10% less dps then the meta classes, every raid leader wanted to bring them (ie. balance druid, Spriest, demo warlock). Here everyone can bring every buffs and if your dps is good you’re in else you’re not.

[@teroboy2855]

Bruh feral druid was viable in vanilla so was arms warrior wdym bruv

[@usurperx7111]

What you mentioned in 11:00 Is exactly what they should do!

[@LividAardvark3911]

I will say one thing which is that Retail has WAYYY more data to look at. You can glance at incredibly accessible websites and see exactly with hundreds of thousands of data points what each class needs to succeed and exactly what abilities those classes have.... And Blizzard still doesnt balance them well. The Classless devs have way more on their plate to deal with and absolute 0 data to look at so. Do I want them to make balancing, improving, and defining playstyles a priority? Of course. But they have way more to do with way less at their hands to get started so. I gotta cut them some slack atm.

[@DrDewz]

like 65% of your takes are completely wrong : (

[@eldengard23]

I lead naxx 25 asc raid every week on Al'ar and have couple of RFs in S6 and S7. Theres a lot of errors in this video. Viable specs (*does over 10k on Al'ar in naxx right now, A and S tier) Primordial Compoud (if 9 rares highroll) Consumed by Fire* Hot Hands MoS* Controlled Burn* Fingers of Death* Demolisher!! Frozen Chaos Tools of War (SMF)* Ambidex (in TBC /w axes) Ice Lash Twilight Paragon Deadly Bite Righteus Flames* Funny thing is some of the specs deemed unviable are the best performing spec RN lie MoShadow, ToWar SMF, Righ. Flamers, or are viable on Mal'Ganis bc TBC spells like Fingers of Death. Maaaany specs can be made viable for RF raiding and M+ farm. Issue is u need about 10 failed specs worth of XP and about 10 hrs of dummy testing and experimenting. Point being-If u like a spec, make it work, u'll be surprised!

[@adamhakansson1696]

Can you make one for pvp too?

[@gkn9424]

btw molten earth is one of the best m+ specs

[@Mcdoubles]

I played it

[@ynaeascension9006]

@@Mcdoubles Yes and you build it wrong, or atleast not to its potential - as so often in your build vids. I would encourage you to stop putting out misinformation. You should be aware that most ppl who watch your videos are new players, they dont know better. The players that actually do endgame content, like Ascended Raiding or High M+, wont learn anything valuable from your videos. Usually i dont care, but this time you really took it a step to far. I can garantee you, that people will out dps you with M0 gear regardless of your spec chosen, simply because you dont seem to know what you are doing - unless you try to be as off meta as possible, like building Molten Earth with focus on Lava Lash. Its fine to test that, but it straight up worse than what it can do if you build it differently. You also dont seem to invest any time into theory crafting or testing your builds - one would think after all this time you have a general grasp on how certain things synergize - otherwise i cannot see how all the builds you are doing end up worse than what they can be. Pretty sure i am coming off as a total asshat here, but man this video doesnt do you any favor, I get your point - many LREs arent that great, but not being top tier doesnt mean not viable. You are not even doing content where damage matters, you could just not have a legendary RE and still do normal, heroic (even ascended) raids and mythic plus. This is especially true for Classic content. At this point it is less of an opinion, you are clearly not working on your builds enough or doing content challenging enough, to have a qualified opinion on certain topics. This already shows in the comments of this video. I also think most people who bring up counter arguments, are more upset about this than your actual claim on specific LREs being bad.

[@VulturousStuff]

I tried to make a bleed warrior/rogue with ambidextrous 1500csingle target and no aoe :(

[@MrBenstero]

I really hope you're just talking about about lvl 60 builds because so many of the builds you laughed at are very viable in lvl 70 H and Asc raiding. Like compound power and twilight paragon for example. Both can do close to 10k dps ST with good gear.

[@Elray-20]

then you have bad dps^^ 10k dps is nothing. its more like 14-17k^^

[@BaMnupKo]

yeah some overperforming builds are doing 9-11k raidbuffed on malganis atm (not on dummy, in the actual boss fight), mainly snowblind and harbinger of pestilence from what ive seen

[@MrBenstero]

@@Elray-20 well I'm sorry I don't hang out with the top 1% guilds to know how much ascended raiders do. Must mean I'm bad. Good attitude to have btw....(that's sarcasm)

[@babyninjajesus2669]

is there going to be a league specific BC server? cos i started in BC so id love to do mythic + in BC on this type of server where its like packed

[@Mcdoubles]

After this league ends they start TBC on the seasonal server and merge the league characters with it. I think that's similar to what you're asking

[@babyninjajesus2669]

@@Mcdoubles so the seasonal server isnt something that gets shut down and reset every few months say like a Path of exile league start? or will it be a fresh start thing? would it even matter?

[@Mac_D83]

I don’t even play Ascension, rather I can’t play due to some weird install error I can’t figure out, but I love your content. I stumbled upon your channel because I was looking for obscure WoW content. It’s funny too cuz I hate PvP, but I like watching you do it 😂 Was a little surprised at how short this one was but I enjoyed it anyway. Keep it up man!

[@macmickyd1964]

I feel as though you overlooked "Booming Thunder" As someone who used this enchant when they hit max level and had hardly any gear to start running heroics, I do think it had it's purpose. The synergy isn't there unless you have certain rare and epic enchants to back it up however, but all in all it goes well with a lightning chicken build quite well. If you're spamming Chain Lightning the stacks build up pretty quickly and seeing HUGE Earth Shock crits when you have poopy gear is always a big plus in my opinion. I've since then moved onto "Seething Flames" as my Legendary for dps because I feel it has WAY more aoe potential and the single target isn't all that bad either, but I had to give a shout out to the Legendary that helped me get started at max level on Ascension :D

[@DeltownAtze]

Great informative video McDubs, thank you for bringing some attention to the older /useless Legendaries!

[@LesbianWitchAcademia]

Mana Fiend had a niche "Bard" build where people would stack every single Int buff and Spellpower conversion talent and RE physically possible, pop Mana Fiend, and get their demon to crit right at the end of its buff to proc Demonic Pact and give the entire raid like 3k spellpower on A52. It was so good that the Devs absolutely nuked both it and the talent from orbit, despite only the absolute tip of the top of guilds even using the damn build.

[@latexmaster]

Why ice lash is not viable?

[@dietervanleuven8423]

i don't agree with a few "nonviable" LRE. seen some big numbers on those Res

[@Mcdoubles]

xD?

[@dietervanleuven8423]

@@Mcdoubles spellshredder does an easy 3.5-4k on raiddummy. consumed by fire does very respectable dps when it's able to be a turret, if it's a fight with alot of movement it dies off a bit

[@Mcdoubles]

I understand what you're saying mate. I've already had to do quite a few replies to people with similar responses towards builds they fancied. I gave you an xD? because you're missing the point in exchange for arguing with me about something that doesn't matter! The point of the video is to showcase that there are an ENORMOUS amount of unviable legendary enchants and I gave my opinion on the average->good enchants as a bonus that leads up to the main point of the video. Hope that makes sense!

[@dietervanleuven8423]

@@Mcdoubles aight, i see you. On more thing, i think i missed it in the vid. Thoughts about Evoker

[@tabby842]

I talked to Kaladin a couple years ago about a similar topic. He said that their goal to solving build variety and troublesome talent interactions was to encapsulate them into legendary REs. This way they can isolate the balance issue without touching the talents themselves. I'm still waiting to see the supposed strength of this solution. Because eventually the number of legendary REs and even epic REs will become so numerous as you try to accommodate player's playstyle desires, that you've delayed the problem that you were going to run into eventually being a classless MMO. My suggestion was to just allow these 'broken' talent interactions back into the game and continue iterating along that path. Allow true creative freedom for the player, and for things truly broken you can almost create the inverse of a legendary RE, for specific truly broken builds or interactions you can encapsulate that into an 're' and nerf that interaction selectively. So people can't solo clear BT in fresh 70 blues spamming 300k moonfires for almost no mana, if players have discovered to do that.

[@shambleshef]

This was an interesting video hearing opinions on LREs. Much better than asking world chat. If it's something you're interested in, I would like to see a video or videos going over how to make weaker specs more viable. Mainly want to see the sort of thought process that goes into doing that, because I would like to see some other perspectives on some off meta setups/gimmicks/ideas that isn't the average player's standard "it doesn't do 9999k DPS so its literal garbage" mindset

[@michal4561]

Its really easy, get a spreadsheet, get average price of each leg re item on ah and u will see the same thing, buff lowest average numbers by 5% until you value of leg re converging

[@TheOnlyReliva]

I play this server in waves, its fun for like a week or 2. Then I just get so bored of the builds. I like playing what I find fun, but def feel if you don't do meta you just get stuck in herc raids and low.mythics

[@TheCrazyredman]

Well some of the caster RE you said wasn't viable that are. I watch just about all people ascension videos and with you. You mainly stick to melee The times I saw you try to go caster it was built all wrong and your dps showed. I struggle building melee builds properly casters I can build easy or a tank

[@JediFrog]

The game is advertised as "play whatever class you can imagine." I keep trying to play my Shadow Paladin, but it just doesn't work :( Seriously, such little things actually feel good to play, and like you said at 10:31, it feels shit to try and play anything holy because they don't change the playstyle. The only one that I can see that does anything different is Champion of Justice (the passive Paladin Healing enchant), but even that just adds 1 tiny thing that feels so bear bones that you ask yourself why you would ever use Paladins as a base for trying to create something unique. I mean, you can try to use things that aren't mythic enchants, but the problem is that the mythic enchants give so much power that trying to do anything else is just stupid.

[@dreamingwhilefat4888]

When is the real video

[@Infernoblade1010]

Love league 3, but I think it's time to reassess these legendaries and epic enchants. Maybe tweak what they do, or change the rarity for a bigger range of builds.

[@filipolsson1709]

Anyone acctually playing endgame content knows that u missed out on tons of top tier enchants/builds that u reason is "not viable" Because they arent the best in aoe AND ST? In endgame content u want builds who focus on ST and some more aoe focused. Its the same on retail, there are specs more focused on cleave and some specs that do better on ST. It's extremly hard to balance a game if u want everything to be toptier for all situations.

[@Mcdoubles]

Hey friend, that's not the point of the video. A LOT of people seemed to get really damaged about my opinions on some of the average builds and where they lay exactly on that average --> good spectrum. But that was just a bonus, a lead up, to the actual point of the video and that is the sheer quantity of unviable legendary enchants.

[@filipolsson1709]

@@Mcdoubles I mean, yes. There are alot of legendary enchants that's not viable, However there are far more that is viable then what you stated in ur video, hence my comment :)

[@GamingNormaly]

Festering wounds is viable. Seen it pull 10k+ in ST. Works great on most ASC25 Bosses.

[@Kc_shredz]

what is ST

[@GamingNormaly]

@@Kc_shredz Single-Target as in doing good damage one 1 boss and not cleaving on 2-3 ads.

[@BaMnupKo]

is it on malganis? is it chimera shot mutilate?

[@mythikos3535]

Learn something everyday! Today after 17 years I finally know how to pronounce subtlety. Probably why I always just shortened it to Sub ha. I wish they had a test server per account that aloud you to go and test build ideas without spending currency to try an idea. Sort of like how battlefield 4 has the “range”.

[@Slammerbit]

This is something Grey and Co should watch! I highly agree with you!

[@Andy-xd5dj]

Honestly i think most of the "viable" legendaries shown actually need a nerf, not others need a buff. Soul of the warden is viable for m+ and Forbidden Technique is pretty viable for ST and many of the "not viable" ones are very viable just harder to play than the meta ones with similar result. They are not viable only because of comparison to overtuned ones, with most of them the content is still clearable.

[@NotPoodle]

Great vid!

[@elevatedredd1749]

@ 7:53 you mentioned that demolisher isnt viable because of the Mongoose bite but play Demolisher as a basic Rend OP build with Mortal strike and use only Expose Armor (dont take Riposte(might be good for PVP) or mongoose bite since its going to be strength based) everytime the demolisher proc is up!

[@DotHackish]

Did you just say master of shadows was not viable.. Guess im done with this video.

[@jeffreymorrow9773]

Drain heal tank? That build was cool asf and would love to see it again!!

[@aaronmost2858]

if built full poison Blood Venom can pull 9k dps on ASC nefarian so

[@yousefhesham8439]

To this day, me and my friends call that rogue spec Sub-tele-ty. As English isn't our first language, we just spelled what we read.

[@painnmisery2582]

skipped over relentless :< aoe evisc is fun. never taken it into anything past base mythic so not sure how it does there

[@Mcdoubles]

I think that's because relentless was supposed to be a tank build but maybe there's a hidden dps version I don't know about

[@colinhendry6116]

I need more tools of war hunter homies. I have a focused burst build on the loader, and it def is a shame that a purple RE is more note worthy than the legendary I run. I wish there was a LRE for piercing shots to let it stack and proc an additional effect, or something substantial besides +15% physical dmg.

[@oaksmadoaks]

Well I'm glad I watched this, cause I was pumped to jump in but since 90% is "not viable" I will not even spend time on this game. Good video lol....

[@derekspackman2852]

With only 6 weeks remaining in League 3. There is high likelyhood that these issues will be addressed moving forward. This as I understand it was the entire point of League 3, to introduce new RE's to experiment with the Meta. Hopefully the Devs are paying attention.

[@chavkiller5]

As an Arcane Gunslinger player was hoping to see you try it out, but can see how the mana issues n not the best aoe can throw you off. The st is good though, takes a lil build up, but with mythic 0 gear I get 12+14k crits with 5 stacks.

[@nc2kai]

think you missing out a little here, sure there is alot of LRE's thats not used very much but this is becuse people see big numbers and insta copy them. if you think about it a little this is the best thing about ascension. take Locust for example, it was not hyped up at all. sudenly 2-3 ppl is bringing up massive numbers on it just cuse they got it to work. Master of Shadows for example. not that popular at first but then some guyes on area 52 broke it! broke it to a point where it had a little nerf. What im saying is sure there is some re's thats useless in pve, but when you figure out a re and can make it pump thats when you really stand out in the crowd! sure ppl will copy you and it becomes new meta but you still had ALOT of fun. If you go back and look at old leagues and seasons you will see the meta changes often! new builds comes out and some builds not played anymore. its not that 70 Re's are shit, its people not playing it cuse they play meta or working on a new re. i bet you when tbc comes on al'ar and league merges there is totaly new re's on the top, maybe old re's ho knows. but when you have a big pool like ascension and have alot of good re's, some are still not going to be played even tho they are defently more then good.

[@facelessgames94]

I was kinda dissapointed to find out that Blessing of the Divines doesn't proc from holy nova. Sad times for my mana barrier holy tank.

[@kometda]

i disagree with your comments about consecrated strikes only having 1 way to be played. I play the build using a single 2H and Seal of Command, and the build has to be played differently depending on if you're cleaving or ST. But you make a hugely valid point regarding 70 unviable legendary REs in the game. For a game with a classless systems there's sweet fk all variety for viable classes. Cant even get into a AQT without being a viable spec in full heroic minimum from BWL

[@Dynelegacy]

I feel like this only applies to people who want to play hardcore and go for leaderboards, you can do all the content with most builds and a good team.

[@WoodyTrombone]

I tried, folks. Mission failed. We'll get 'em next time.

[@rob9344]

Wait, I’m doing pretty good DPS with primordial fury, 5-7k dps ilvl 70, garbage weapons too. Build like an enhancement shaman, prioritize flame tongue dmg. Run sun fire, sunder soul and the Shamanistic Rage re. Master of Shadows also does a bunch of damage if built like a rogue, no shadow spells. A’lar server.

[@thexn0r]

i dont like the new legendaries that give a whole new abilities i think they made a mistake by adding those

[@Mcdoubles]

I'm starting to feel similar but I think it might be too late to go back so their best bet is to buff the rest.

[@melissabruun6721]

I think you hit the nail on the head in your video were you mentioned that the legendary REs are more like classes now. It's not really a classless server anymore, just a server with tons of more classes than retail wow, which make it even harder to balance somewhat and maintain, I wish they would cut down on REs and their impact and make them more generalizable, think eldricth knight, but all legendary REs are like that in a way that you can be creative with them, I don't see them doing that though, I have more hopes for their CoA since, they designed the classes there ground up at least.

[@kylemiller6765]

Retail WoW does not have anything close to 23 unique classes. The vast majority play and feel very similar. If our criteria for "unique" is that the abilities look differently with very minor mechanical differences then really there are thousands of viable builds. Does 1 skill make the difference?

[@Mcdoubles]

fair

[@lockematthews6049]

I've been using a melee hydromancer as its what I got whilst leveling and I'm just building gear to try all of the others. I do 1.5k on Avg with 63 ilvl. I just need better crit but I have 1k frost spell power. I'm gonna listen to the vid and try snowblind, hopefully I won't need too much work with my gear

[@peepsightgaming7257]

Whole heartedly agree with you dude the non viable lego's need a rework great vid!

[@Mcdoubles]

Appreciate it!

[@8jakeP8]

Pvp wise they need some epic defensive enchants. Ones that punish the other player over cc’ing would be nice imo. I have an idea for one that gives you stacking damage reduction for each time your have a full loss of control.

[@herrizaax]

I managed 5.5k st with controlled burn, but u spend all your cd's to get a strong immolate and if for some reason any mechanic kicks it off your target its just gone.. midnight flames is good, ppl can get high st dmg with it even tho on this one i didnt get the 6k ppl talk about yet.

[@scotthuffman3462]

Ascension devs: "We're gunna pretend we didn't hear that"

[@letsplaygames8563]

A lot of these not viable legendarys like master of shadows (unless it got nerfed and I didnt know) are simply not right, a lot of them are straight up viable, and should have gone more in depth because some of these are more raiding and the others are clearly more M+/dungeon, but this is coming from someone who is more often on the free pick server

[@exquilo4684]

Master of shadows did not in fact get nerfed, everyone I spoke to that mained/mains it told me it felt really weak compared to other builds

[@letsplaygames8563]

@@exquilo4684 at least on free pick that build was one of the stronger melee builds, was competing with twilight paragon and such from what I saw

[@durchlochert6075]

Flame on! is pretty fun my dude!

[@Mcdoubles]

It's also something like ~2 years old =(

[@durchlochert6075]

@@Mcdoubles I just started actually playing got it randomly on a piece of gear and have decided to make a build out of it.

[@adamm2091]

As a Conc Striker; NODDERS

[@disturbedx1000]

I honestly feel that rogue builds for melee get the most love simply because the abilities are spamable an easy to work with. Warrior builds seem to always be the highest dos for melee. Fire casters be it mage or lock, always top tier due to to many synergies. Then I feel hunters get shafted big time. Seriously hunter builds on ascension jist feel so underwhelming an seething flames is only viable because of the above named fire synergies. I would personally love to see a Global hunter legendary. Make Chimera shot have bonus effects with other abilities. Some of my ideas "after you cast chimera shot, tranquil shot reduces the armor of your target by 25% for your physical hunter shots an abilities" "After using chimera shot, your explosive shot deals.physical damage, but explodes 6 times, instead of 3" Or you can make beast master legendary like "Primal instincts: Your beautiful wrath can no longer be cast, but now has a 25% chance on melee crit to activate (with a 15 second internal cool down after it ends), if your target is bleeding you and your pet gain blood frenzy, further increasing your melee damage by 10% durring beastial wrath." This i feel would make melee hunters viable an have more viable builds with druid, rogue or warriors. Another idea I had. "Frost shot: your steady shot scales with frost bolt an increases all frost damage done by you and your pet by 15%. Frlst shot applies a stack of BRITTLE to the target an up to 5 closest enemies. BRITTLE slows targets movespeeex by 15% an stacks up to 5 times. Your next explosive shot on the target causes BRITTLE to melt, but does 15% more damage. (5% to players). An to go with the shadow hunter idea that I know you love. "Voljins spirit: your physical hunter abilities now deal shadow damage. Multishot now applies Dark Voodoo. Dark Voodoo procs on frost trap, explosive trap, explosive shot, or chimera shot. Explosive trap, explosive shot proc. Fire damage is converted to shadow damage an reduces the targets shadow resistances by 20% for 10 seconds. Frost trap proc makes all targets under dark voodoo coward in fear for 3 seconds, an increases the movement speed reduction by 10% Chimera shot proc consumes serpent sting an converts its bonus damage to shadow damage. Scorpio sting fears the target in place for 3 seconds an extends the disarm by 5 seconds. Viper sting proc now restores double the mana drained to you. An deals the amount drained as shadow damage." A bit overloaded maybe, but the ideas are endless an could be so much fun...

[@8jakeP8]

Purification by Light out damages One with the Light pretty hard actually, I tested that a couple weeks ago. One with the light kinda sucks imo, they either need to make it so your melee attacks deal holy damage or move it up to 50%. Since I saw that I dropped crusader strike and divine storm, and I run deconstruct w/ One with the Light and it goes pretty hard.

[@8jakeP8]

Here’s my idea for a rogue pally combo. A new Legendary RE- Templar: Crusader Strike and Divine Storm now generate 1 combo point each. Turns Eviscerate into the ability Templar Strike: this ability deals ~100/200/300/400/500% weapon damage as holy damage based on combo points. Turns Slice and Dice into the ability Templar’s Verdict: this ability makes all melee attacks deal ~10/20/30/40/50% extra damage as holy damage based on combo points for ~12 seconds

[@LyokoBarbossa]

Try a machine gun Astral Bomber build. To clarify, focus on getting haste, Spell Power, and casting speed increasing abilities, and don't even bother with DoTs like Ignite.

[@haqu123321]

Hot Hands build can go 4k dps, they are fine. But to be fair, the hot hands is basically just a crit buff :D

[@iasbi8512]

I am not a veteran by any means, but going through the Legendaries myself, it is very clear that many of them are not viable and need to be either revisited or moved into the Epic tier. SO many builds would be crazy fun if a few of these were moved into the Epic tier category. I will say though, after reading some comments here, people think 3k ST and 5k AOE is viable. Sure, it's viable if you want to be middle of the road, solid. But I've been in groups with people pumping 5k+ single and 10k+ aoe. I guess Mcdoubles should have clarified what his viable means in terms of DPS.