How Much Do Americans Dislike Atheists? (feat. Dr. Ryan Burge)

[@ladyethyme]

Best quote I saw “Christians want to be persecuted so badly it should qualify as BDSM”

[@shaqman813]

@P-nk-m-na That got a laugh out of me.

[@EBSammy0]

@P-nk-m-na i hate that you just made me read this sentence in this context, I can't even LOL

[@KateeAngel]

And many fundie women like submission so much that it looks like a kink

[@808bigisland]

It’s what it is.

[@presentfuture7563]

I can already tell that this is going to be my favorite thing I read today.

[@YodaBSith]

one of my faves: "You're an atheist?! But you're such a nice person!"

[@glasses2926]

This is the stupidity you get out of people who think our morals are based on religion, as if the world hasn't revolved around an increasingly human-centric moral code ever since the Renaissance.

[@ianbuick8946]

Niceness is outward. Kindness is inward. Wanna look into the deep dark of the soul? Stack it against the standard. How many angry, jealous, lustful thoughts a day?

[@zachrabaznaz7687]

​@@ianbuick8946I'm an atheist and I get very little. It'd still be a pointless standard, and if you're the type of person to accuse atheists of such, you're clearly thinking more angry and hateful thoughts...

[@ianbuick8946]

@@zachrabaznaz7687 I do not set the standard. God did it. And it's true, i'm guilty all of that angry, jealous, lustful, and then some negativity, envy, judgey, discouragement, vanity, etc. Some day, i don't even aware i am all of that. It's not like we walk about with a clipboard to check the box or gopro mounted on the head to review at the end of day. A patient doesn't need to go see doctor if he/she doesn't believe he/she is sick. You believe you're good person, and of course i believe you believe so. Nothing else can be done here.

[@S_whoelse]

​@@ianbuick8946No, morality is a value judgement. One that every human can be a part of, but you either fail to understand that or just don't want to. Your god never said that wearing a hijab is moral, does this mean we're allowed to stone muslim women?

[@Akira-jd2zr]

When all you know is privilege, equality seems like oppression...

[@connor3284]

What do those words mean and how are they at all important to an atheist?

[@JuFated]

@@connor3284 If you lived all your life privileged and always getting your way, seeing 'others' be treated the same as you feels like oppressions.

[@connor3284]

@@JuFated Why is that phenomenon, as a general principle, "bad" from a atheistic perspective?

[@w1nterdays]

@@connor3284Christians are not oppressed

[@samuelpartin4505]

@@connor3284 He said at the beginning of the video that Evangelicals thought that they were super oppressed, even though they have good lives, usually. Edit: yall I am just restating what was said in the video, stop pinging me.

[@Sephiroth144]

How to break people's rating thermometers: "I'm an Atheist Veteran"

[@ASweetShortCake]

They get sent to the void 😂

[@coryzilligen790]

In my experience, when there's two highly-conflicting labels like that, they tend to go with the one they have a worse opinion of.

[@theboombody]

@@coryzilligen790 Very interesting.

[@tbotalpha8133]

@@coryzilligen790 Ah, interesting! They prefer to round down instead of round up!

[@InformationIsTheEdge]

Thank you for your service!

[@incrediblesloth85]

My wife was held down on a playground as a child by other kids told she was going to hell for being an atheist and they ostracized her about it. Anyone who says it doesn't happen is ignorant.

[@jackschitt6235]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions? Supposedly in Iran if they think you are gay they throw you off the roof of a tall building!

[@lynn858]

It's not that it "doesn't happen", or that it's not horrible and traumatic when it does happen... because yikes, that's awful... it's just that abuse like that happens proportionately more frequently to other marginalized groups. More frequently, I'm grateful, the outcome is yelling back and forth, which prompts an adult to call the athiest's parents and say the athiest kid is unwelcome - either "if the subject ever comes up again" or simply unwelcome period. I'm really sorry your wife experienced that. What ridiculous group-think, brain-washing trauma must those kids have been put through in order to do that to someone with different beliefs, or do that at all, to anyone.... it's all around awful.

[@jackschitt6235]

@@lynn858 There are still idiotic things done in Fraternities and Sororities and this is with people pursuing so-called higher education. Bad traditions continue in the military too. What thoughtful person thinks it's ok to encourage someone to drink themselves to death? That's hardly good clean fun but it's happened unfortunately.

[@theboombody]

Kids are brutal to anyone not in the majority. I'm not sure that will ever change. Human beings need guidance to be good. Without guidance they become monsters quickly and stay that way. It takes kids a while to figure out that kind of behavior is wrong as wrong can be.

[@Rawnblade13]

​@@theboombodyKids? Adults are brutal to people who aren't the majority. Just look at well...all of human history. How minorities are treated, gay people, trans people, you name it.

[@andrewscherman6165]

Can you really say you "trust" someone if you fear being honest with them?

[@executeorder6613]

Damn. That hits hard

[@TheMrCougarful]

That has a name, it's called Stockholm Syndrome. Most deconstructed Christians I've heard from on KZbin seem to have suffered from this. Just think about that for a moment.

[@joshualavender]

Hmm, that's a pithy point, but I believe it's in fact more complicated than that. For people who fear being honest with their friends or family, it's almost never about everything -- it's a fear of being honest about this one thing, i.e. the thing they know will set them apart in their loved ones' minds and win only disapproval. They still have good reasons to trust their loved ones about a plethora of other things. This can muddy the water a lot, making it hard for them to come down to the reasoning that they need to be able to trust their loved ones to hear that one thing, too. And often that's because we have to trust our loved ones with so much else on a daily basis. We have good reasons to fear losing them. We can convince ourselves it's best to hide things because of everything we stand to lose from honesty. Life doesn't give everyone a safety net in the event, for instance, they lose their family.

[@NothingXemnas]

I mean, i certainly wouldnt trust any person, even closest friends, enough to tell about certain very bad things. I have things I keep to myself and willingly not act upon to remain a part of society. Actually, while a weird example, one such situation would be why we don't masturbate in front of our friends (normally... idk, I guess some people are into that thing).

[@Dwafiz]

It's not complete trust, true, but wouldn't change the fact that they're still the people you trust the most (e.g. family), for most topics. Drew's experience is VERY parallel to the experience of queer youth who grow up in a household where talk of homosexuality is taboo. Suddenly there's something you're experiencing that you know from how you've been raised is very risky to be honest about with people, even those you've told everything to before that point.

[@paulanderson5389]

As an atheist I find it interesting that a lot of religious people ( Christians) have a hard time believing that I don’t believe in their god let alone a god. I was raised in a very religious family but since I was a kid I never believed I that stuff and I did try but every time I just found myself lying to myself.

[@williamgreenfield9991]

Lying to oneself is the biggest pandemic in history.

[@missrobin2088]

I think my 15 year old would identify with this. He had night terrors when he was young and prayed hard but they never went away. I was at a loss at to how to help him, so he lived in fear of his nightmares every night for years He came to the conclusion that either God didn't exist, or God didn't like him. I don't think he's ready to call himself athiest, but he's not really a believer either.

[@scirrhia_kruden]

They're basically "You don't actually not believe in God, you're just lying to yourself, because how could anyone not believe in God? It's like not believing water is wet. You can only deny it, not disbelieve it." Ignoring the fact that water isn't wet, it's the thing that makes other non-water things wet. I think that's a good analogy.

[@g.d.graham2446]

It's obviously a personal thing, so it's better to be yourself than to live as a liar

[@Coolerranch1]

​@@missrobin2088The nightmares are caused by satan so it doesn't really matter much except that he should be told the truth and learn to have faith in God and not evil. What does evil want the child to fear? What does the child interact with in his environment? You could help him with this.

[@michaelspurling4376]

I'm an atheist and this is what I think of evangelicals: if you have to be threatened with eternal damnation to be a good person, you are NOT a good person.

[@samwisegamgee6532]

Precisely, such people can’t really became good person, at best they are between good and evil, forever med-evil.

[@Orange_Swirl]

​@@samwisegamgee6532Man, I love puns

[@brandenlumley4056]

Commenting here because I can't comment on the main thread apparently... Hey, just wanted to say he did very well with going back and editing this video, no over the top stitches, no useless videos and stats to distract us, and he added some much needed clarifications on what he said (see 5:15 for an example)

[@janschmalz7980]

That is not true. Often this "threat" isn't really considered by most religious people. It's not easy to decide what is morally good and what is not; so this people search for answers in religion, which, for everyday life, is just fine.

[@8eyes]

The most pathetic part of religious people is that they don't even consider eternal damnation as a threat just a according conquecence.

[@mjjoe76]

It amazes me how some people think being persecuted means not getting everything they want. Unfortunately it’s the dominant notion driving several powerful people in the US, and they use it to justify real persecution.

[@AnotherCraig]

These are folks who confuse privilege for liberty. Or are terrified of irrelevance. Or both. I think the mindset is nothing at all new, but it does seem particularly bad right now

[@presentfuture7563]

@@AnotherCraig "Folks who confuse privilege for liberty." Boy oh boy, did you say a mouthful there.

[@AnotherCraig]

@@presentfuture7563 Haha as much as I'd like to claim it, I got that particular turn of phrase from somewhere else... but I can't remember where 😅

[@NothingXemnas]

​@@AnotherCraig In all honesty, one of the greatest ideal passed to me is that liberty and freedom to any single person NEVER should take it away from another one's own liberty. It should be common sense to live in liberty is to protect others'. Sadly, some just don't want that to be true, they just want freedom with no compromises. Rules for thee, but not for me.

[@rataflechera]

War on Christmas. War on cars. Emasculation of men by third wave.

[@victoriabernuth9728]

My dad was an Atheist, my mom and two sisters believed in non-rational things. I was Atheist by the time I became an adult. At 75 I’ve come to see the dangers of not addressing irrational thought. I no longer hide out, and I let folks know what I think. It has been freeing but I have experienced discrimination.

[@nothanks6549]

In what ways have you experienced discrimination?

[@tiredofliars]

A fool says in his heart there is no god, a wise man shouts it out loud!

[@captainoates7236]

​@@tiredofliarsSound's like a quote from somewhere. If so, where's it from? My logic would say it's the wrong way round.

[@PhysalisAngulataNicotina]

​@@captainoates7236It's a spoof on psalm 14

[@tiredofliars]

@@captainoates7236 I am curious how such logic would work!

[@Helyotes]

here in france, i was in a catholic middle school even though no one in my family believes in god and we all are atheists, and i was so surprised by how many people didnt believe in god and werent afraid of saying so. I even had an american teacher who always joked about how bad religion and trump are which i found funny.

[@ryanreedgibson]

Smart teacher! They were right.

[@couleurlourde3352]

I am baptised as a Catholic and had catechism when I was 7 or 8 , my parents don't believe in god and me neither... France is weird for that

[@asundermom]

Well,Trump is terrible.Religion is a close 2nd on my hate scale lol.

[@Rawnblade13]

Every time I hear stories like this from people in Europe, to me from someone in the US, it sounds like someone from another planet. Religion is so prevalent here to such an absurd degree that you'd get dirty looks for saying you don't believe in God.

[@mr.mcbeavy1443]

​@@Rawnblade13 Dirty looks? People have lost their jobs, marriages, friends and parents, or worse, for not believing, in America.

[@LS-qq4zc]

I am British and we see US Christianity as weirdly fundamentalist as Al Qaeda. The intertwining of politics and religion in America is frankly scary seen from here.

[@njhoepner]

It's scary to see from the inside too - seems to me (I'm 58) that it wasn't always this way, it's been getting decidedly worse over the last 25 years.

[@xXEGPXx]

Yep, its a desperation move from them. As the average person moves away from religion they must appeal to the fringe to stay relevant. The gun nuts, the bible thumpers, the conspiracy theorists, the racists and the homophobes all on one team desperately trying to consolidate their dwindling influence.

[@jonharrison3114]

Scary to me as well, fortunately the farther north you go the less it’s a problem

[@ericbugway2416]

I'm British, and yes, that's EXACTLY how I see it!

[@hippychicken82]

​@@ericbugway2416me too

[@darnacb]

I grew up in Louisiana, and became a vocal atheist at the age of seven. I have lost jobs. I have been physically attacked. You learn a lot about people.

[@schwarzwolfram7925]

Remember the three kinds of people you encounter in life: Those who helped you in a hard time. Those who left you in a hard time. And those who put you there.

[@myri_the_weirdo]

The irony of their religion telling that you should be nice to everyone vs what they do

[@rangercommandervelvlarumai7589]

@@schwarzwolfram7925 perfectly said

[@theGrooveChampion]

I want to comment so as to dispel some of the north-south divide stereotypes. I'm born and raised Wisconsin. 'You said it all'. We're talking rural (HS graduating class size was 62). This is where you either went to a church on sunday and the bar every night or you were not welcome. They won't tar and feather you, they'll accept you money, but you are not invited, you are not to be trusted, you are not right. The kids called me a "jew" and other slurs only after they started going to sunday school.

[@outdoorsman7324]

"Became vocal"? How? 😂 Sounds like it would irritate the fμ€k out of me too.

[@OceanusHelios]

Imagine being part of the in-group the hegemony favors the most in every way and calling yourself persecuted.

[@julianociaramello2150]

I don't think they're in that group, I think they're gullible idiots that are used by that in group.

[@generatoralignmentdevalue]

The New Testament is basically the four christians there were back then talking to each other about that time the other day when their leader was executed by the state. The persecution stuff makes sense. But now, in a christian half-theocracy, admitting that maybe they're not persecuted anymore opens the door to a really problematic question: what else in the Bible just flat-out doesn't apply any more? It's easier to convince yourself you're being persecuted.

[@Rawnblade13]

Persecution is an integral part of Christianity. Their entire religion revolves around worshipping a martyr after all. But they're the largest, most powerful religion in the entire world, especially in the United States. So obviously they're NOT persecuted anymore, but they can't admit that because their entire religion revolves around it.

[@justanotheropinion5832]

It helps clear their conscious of all the horrible things they want/do/enable.

[@connor3284]

Jews?

[@dfs-comedy]

This is so surreal to me. Most of my circle of friends are agnostic or atheists, and religion just isn't an issue in my city. (I live in Canada.) It's so bizarre to hear that people even care if others are atheists, or that people feel the need to "come out" as atheist.

[@petercoo9177]

It's very "identity-political" - my impression (although it's a wee bit remote, I'm not an American either) is that it's not really about faith, it's about being a member of the in-group. Admitting to being an atheist, in that society, puts you on the wrong side of the fence between the "us" and the "them." Americans are really big on this, Canadians not so much.

[@amberbydreamsart5467]

it's not even necessarily a fear of hostility thing, honestly, i think a lot of discussion of christian-normative american communities leaves this out. Even if your average protestant christian in america isn't evangelical, there's a strong chance that they believe in hell and believe the only way to heaven is through being a christian. My parents are not hateful or spiteful of my atheism, but it is something I had to 'come out' about because of this belief, and this can happen a lot in places where the default assumption is that you're a christian. Anyone who genuinely, fully believes that only christians go to heaven is going to feel the only moral thing to do is to try and convert athiests, so even if a community isn't going to be hostile to someone mentioning they're an athiest, there's going to be a moral drive for them to invite that person to church, try and talk over theology with them, or even barring that they could start to be viewed by that community with pity due to their doomed soul. that's the thing that's honestly the most tragic and frustrating about christians' discrimination of other religions, they can absolutely hurt people terribly while only being motivated by love and compassion

[@joshualavender]

@@amberbydreamsart5467 That's very well put. "I'm doing this to save your soul" is a way of saying "I'm doing this because I love you," and that puts Christians on moral, even noble high ground in their own minds. Unfortunately, you can mean well and still do considerable harm. This is the fact I wish they'd face up to. I did.

[@DanielGarcia-rx3kt]

​​@@joshualavender"the road to hell is paved with good intentions" 😂

[@dfs-comedy]

@@Едентийф I don't think so. I do have a few religious friends (Jewish and Christian) and they know I'm an atheist. It's not an issue for them. Religion, or lack thereof, just isn't a concern or a topic for discussion.

[@denz4133]

As a happy ex Mormon I can tell you that my old religion LOVES to pretend the big bad world is out to get them since they think they are the ONLY true church. You’re either with them or against them in their minds.

[@HonoredMule]

Monotheism in a nutshell. In evolutionary terms, it's a highly successful strategy for social reproduction, and that's why we're still struggling to escape it.

[@SWalkerTTU]

While it’s not so true now, there is at least some justification for that; before the trek to Utah, other Christians WERE out to get Mormons.

[@colbyboucher6391]

ex Jehovah's Witness, same nonsense. Love the videos they've been making lately of "kingdom halls" getting swatted.

[@michaelabbott8674]

That’s news to me. As a practicing member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I don’t see those who disagree with me as a threat. In fact I like to find out why rational intelligent human beings disagree with my views, as a result, I broaden my horizons and increase my empathy daily. I guess I don’t mind being uncomfortable because that’s where true growth comes from. I truly respect those who disagree with me, or even look down on me for my beliefs.

[@richardcaves3601]

No, sorry, but as an atheist, but raised as a Catholic, I can remember my catechism. We were taught from 5 years old that "the Roman Catholic Church is the One True Church and all others are heresy and sinful in God's eyes." Luckily, half a decade later, I read a book on comparitive religions, then got onto Dawkins.

[@karenlankford8558]

One of the things that you have to keep in mind when looking at opinion surveys is that there can be significant differences between what a person says, and how they act. Someone can say that they do not have a problem with a family member marrying someone of a different race or religion, but they always find some other reason to object to the marriage.

[@deneb3525]

That one was super rough for me to come to terms with.

[@themightymcb7310]

This is what is called a "motte and bailey" argument. The "bailey" argument is their actual belief that is less defensible and more controversial and the "motte" argument is the bullshit they come up with to justify and argue for the same outcomes as "bailey" while not appearing monstrous.

[@crowe6961]

There's also the opposite effect of notorious bigots accepting people you wouldn't expect because they're "one of the good ones" - typically those with at least vaguely similar politics. George Lincoln Rockwell and Malcolm X in his radical phase got along well, for example, while conventional thinking these days would have people believe they would have been at each others' throats.

[@themightymcb7310]

@@crowe6961 White supremacists and black separatists tend to get along because they want the same thing-for black people to go back to Africa. A very stupid plan for both groups. Which is why Malcolm X came to his senses later in life and started advocating for a new black cultural identity to begin in the USA.

[@blackshade9]

My family hated the fact that I was an Atheist. Even when I told them I do not believe, they constantly questioned everything I said and tried to force me to participate in the rituals- even pressuring me to lead grace. They knew I didn't believe, but to them that made me broken. As someone who is also trans, one is definitely been worse than the other but that doesn't invalidate the pain, nor do I find comparing pain to be productive or helpful.

[@dangerousdays2052]

Get revenge on them. Make them pay for hurting you. They deserve it.

[@stephenolan5539]

Good food Good meat Good God Let's eat.

[@Elrog3]

@@dangerousdays2052 It sounds like you are just like them. If you had a group of like-minded atheists, you'd go around bullying the christians/etc.

[@Elrog3]

@@dangerousdays2052 How does anyone deserve anything? This world owes you nothing and it owes your neighbor nothing. You don't deserve to be here, you just are. And when you aren't deserving of anything, nobody, no matter what they did, can be any less deserving than you. We are all equal in this regard. None of us matter except within some subjective perspectives. Revenge for its own sake is pointless. It doesn't undo the damage done. Its a waste of time.

[@dangerousdays2052]

@@Elrog3 Cry about it if it makes you feel better, porky. When someone hurts me, I hurt them back because I'm not a coward. Yew have a victim mentality because yer weak.

[@spyfire242]

On this first chart the fact that "Working Class People:" is near the top of the list across the aisle but "Unions" are in the lower half and even near the bottom for Republicans is truly baffling.

[@mactallica9293]

They love the working class but don't want them to have a living wage.

[@mikelwrites]

anti-union propaganda works. clearly.

[@Rawnblade13]

Oh that's easy. Republicans just pretend to like the working class while ACTUALLY screwing them over every chance they get.

[@deneb3525]

If you were to ask a republican to define what they thought a union was and what it did and then asked Democrats what they thought of people who fit that description, they would put it very close to the bottom. The problem is, republican's understanding of what unions are and what they do is drastically different then that of a Democrat's.

[@connor3284]

It doesn't have to be baffling, friend! It is very easy to research why Republicans might think unions are deleterious to the working class. I don't believe that, but I understand why they do. Perhaps people who are not in your in-group have a value system of their own and aren't just slavering Orcs!

[@jayobannon5359]

Really enjoyed this. I am 70. I was raised completely non theistic. My parents were both scientists. We lived by pragmatism and proofs. I never had a thought about a supreme being until we moved to Florida when I was a teen. The first thing that I was asked was what religion I was. That was a first so I talked it over with the parents one night at dinner. Well my dads idea of teaching was to drive around town and point out all the edifices that were erected to an unknowable non tangible entity. He told me to read Thoreau. Then he said go visit them and make up your own mind. Well, I decided that I like an uncomplicated life without the fairy tail. But have enjoyed the discomfort I bring to the religious when they find an athiest shoulder to shoulder at a house raising with Habitat, serving thanksgiving dinners at the salvation army or rendering aid to the helpless.

[@mistersynystyr]

I had a bit of an inverted upbringing: my father believed that aliens came down to earth and created people to make gold out of water (the lost book of enki), and my mother was an avoidant christian who only believed when it was convenient and cherry picked from the bible. Needless to say they did not function together. I arrived at the same conclusion as you after my own exploration and have a happy life without the constant confusion. Richard Feynman and Carl Sagan's interviews and teachings left behind have brought me stability in my beliefs as well as assisting with undoing dogmatic thinking. Its nice to know there are more people who kindly follow their own path based on truths and proof without aggressively targeting others.

[@SupaKoopaTroopa64]

Being raised non-religious is a unique experience. I was very surprised when I learned that religious people are the MAJORITY of the population. I used to think it was a niche hobby that maybe 10% of the population engaged in. I'm still surprised that people are willing to go to WAR over religion though.

[@eeng17]

​@@SupaKoopaTroopa64I know. I thought everyone was atheist until I was eight.

[@steven-el3sw]

Enjoying others discomfort is not a good look for atheism. Or any mentally stable, reasonably moral human for that matter.

[@Tester-sh1mn]

@@SupaKoopaTroopa64 At my primary state school we had an American kid who didn't join in with the Religious education class. I thought that Americans were bad people because they didn't like God. Well hindsight is 20/20 to say the least.

[@4dragons632]

The sheer freaking irony of "working class people" being something that most people in america have warm feelings for. Thats so sad considering the state of america.

[@patrickdallaire5972]

Do you like working class people? Yes, of course! I'm a man of the people. Would you raise the minimum wage? ... What about affordable housing? ... Universal healthcare? ... You do want the working class to be healthy, well fed, and sheltered, right? But... but... that's communism! 🙄

[@bobbabai]

Republicans apparently love working class people but really hate unions. That's one of the more shocking juxtapositions I saw in those first graphs. By similar logic, I guess Republicans would have to love Republicans but hate the Republican Party. They're very confused by the idea of people grouping together to exert influence.

[@mikerich32]

I think there is a lot of cognitive dissonance around the idea of working class people in America, because a lot of people who claim to view them favorably also vote in ways that hurt the working class.

[@Alienshade]

Hail corporations so long they do really evil things. But if they try to make life better for some people then the hate is heavy. Americans want nothing good for anyone because that's unfair. Everyone needs to suffer the worst way possible.

[@GaasubaMeskhenet]

The left and the right probably define "working class" differently

[@Annie_Annie__]

I’ve found that being an atheist _parent_ especially in an area where evangelism is the norm, is harder than being a childfree atheist adult in the same area. Very quickly we got pressured to take our kid to Vacation Bible School, to let family members take him to their church (without us) when he was only a toddler. And when he started school it was _really_ hard. My kid realized he was different pretty quickly. In 1st grade he got cornered and screamed at by several of his classmates for saying he didn’t go to church or believe in god after his friend asked what church he went to. And when the teacher broke it up, my kid was the one that got scolded. Then, our whole family got pushed out of Cub Scouts for being atheist. The pack leader wanted to start each meeting with a prayer and my husband, as Den Leader, would be in charge of leading the prayer every week for the kids in my son’s age group. But we had at least one other atheist family (who weren’t out to everyone yet) and a Muslim family in our Den, so even personal reasons aside, it would be wrong to force the kids to pray. The Pack leader was already angry over my husband’s “disobedience” in this, but then she tried to make it a requirement that the kids go to church at least twice a month, one of those times to the specific Methodist Church that sponsored the Pack. My husband led the parental charge against this requirement, which included several Christians. So we got ostracized by the other Christian families. I’ll never forget my kid’s face when we went to a “fall festival party” and several of his friends said “my parents told me not to talk to you” or “my parents said your mom and dad are evil”. Who does that to innocent little kids? For a while my kid asked to go to church so he could “pretend to be Christian so people will like me”. That broke my heart. I took him to the local Unitarian Universalist Church and talked to the youth director. She introduced him to a couple of the atheist families there. That helped a lot. He ended up not wanting to keep going, but knowing he wasn’t alone and wasn’t the only kid with atheist parents in the city (or even in his school) really helped. Now he’s a teen and has decided for himself that he’s atheist. I’m sure the Christian “love” he’s gotten through the years has helped to push him away from that. He’s not shy about telling people he’s atheist and why. I’m more gun-shy about it. I think he’s at a point where he’s almost defiant. He feels like “if they’re going to hate me for that, I don’t want them as friends in the first place.” (He feels the same way about being bi, which I’m also gun-shy about) When my husband and I were first married, it was easy to keep our religious views to ourselves. We had a courthouse wedding because we didn’t want a big fuss (and our families accepted that answer). And no one really bothered us about religion. But it seemed like the moment we had a kid everyone was on us about baptism and christening and church and Sunday School and religious private school. Even my MIL went through an Evangelical phase (she’s Catholic) and we got in a huge argument because she tried to force my kid to say grace before dinner, then after someone else said it, she tried to force him to say “amen”. We didn’t speak to them for a few months (we usually see them every 1-2 weeks) until FIL forced MIL to apologize. It feels like running an obstacle course sometimes. Especially when my kid was younger. Now they’ve mostly accepted that they’re not going to convert him surreptitiously.

[@lynn858]

Thank you for standing up for your kid, hearing what they think, and helping them to find a middle ground (universal church) so they could look for comfort, and explore ideas, without needing to pretend to be something they didn't wish to be. And thank you for sharing your family's experience. Being intentionally childfree, it is pretty simple and accepted. I guess people have opinions on every other aspect of parenting, religion, with a side of "punishment from hell" conditioning, that would be a thing people have strongly motivated opinions on. So thank you.

[@Rawnblade13]

Every time I hear stories like this, it breaks my heart and enrages me. It sounds like it worked out in the end and I'm glad. I'm reminded every day how fake Christians are. There is no hate like Christian love.

[@keirfarnum6811]

Holy heck! So glad I’m a west coaster. From Alaska to California I have never had a problem being an atheist.

[@tiltingwindmill]

Who does that to little kids? Christians. Nearly exclusively.

[@AILIT1]

I almost broke out crying reading this. Especially at the part where your kid asked to go to church so he could pretend and other kids would like him. Sheesh. So close to crying. Respect to you two being strong as parents while being circled by the indoctrination squad. Respect to your son for choosing his own path and owning it.

[@nathanieljefferies5491]

When comes to people knowing what I believe, I follow what Mark Twain said: “Never tell the truth to people who are not worthy of it” and all religious fundamentalists are definitely unworthy.

[@jameskpolk9137]

“Don’t give your pearls to swine”

[@bobs182]

"What most people know, ain't so".

[@theboombody]

What about medical doctors that are religious fundamentalists? They're smart and they save lives. I went to a church for a while near a medical school and several residents attended there.

[@RedSunUnderParadise]

Fundies are aren’t even subhuman. They are more like subslugs.

[@RedSunUnderParadise]

@@theboombody >Religious Fundies >Doctors Ah yes, Medical Malpractice.

[@quijadriss7650]

I am a science teacher in a state where teaching evolution is the standard (which it should be, it is a cornerstone of our curriculum) . Every year there are students that make religious arguments and questions about my own beliefs based on my teachings. I often find myself having meetings with admin and parents. I can never seem to luke warm enough not to piss people off. I don't know what else to do.

[@marknieuweboer8099]

It's impossible for you to not piss them off because evolution theory pisses them off.

[@mythokratis]

@quijadriss. tell them you're teaching science, not theology and that if you were compelled to teach theology you'd have to teach all religions not just theirs. Tell them education necessitates the examination of information, not just assertions of faith which rely on declarations to possess "truth" while ignoring facts..... You're not in Sunday school. Neither are their children in your class. They are going to be pissed off because they have an emotional attachment to a story which promises a reward. Your job is to inform the students in your class, not to pander to people's attachment to fictions.

[@quijadriss7650]

@@mythokratis this is in large part what I try to do. We strongly push the C.E.R. model (claim, evidence, reasoning). Every unit, every project, every lab, they have to support their claims with evidence then explain how the two are connected with reasoning. I teach that if one is unable to do this, then the claim is unsubstantiated. I draw connections to lawyers in a courtroom. If someone is going to try to convict a someone of a heinous crime, they have to have the evidence. Unfortunately, I feel we are living in a world where saying or hearing something repeatedly, no matter how untrue, counts as evidence. I had a parent yell at me that the Bible was the evidence they used. I had a kid stand up and yell "evolution is a lie" every time I even said the word. I do my best to engage the kids in a meaningful discussion rather than shut it down as a classroom disruption. In the end, sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. Given the educational environment today, this has resulted in anxiety over how certain parents will react when they hear something they don't like. The fact of the matter is, when a parent complains to admin, it almost always goes poorly for the teacher, no matter what. So now I live trying to balance a "do what has to be done" vs "walk on eggshells" attitude. It's stressful even in the best of times.

[@crafterofdoom]

@@quijadriss7650 stomp the eggshells

[@BrettCoryell]

The kid who yells “evolution is a lie” is just being rude. As a (former) science teacher, I empathize with what that does to your classroom but I’d shut that down on just general manners and respect. As for everything else, thanks for what you do. I like the CER model. It’s very, very important. Please keep fighting. For both kids and parents, you may be the only exposure they EVeR get to this way of thinking. You don’t have to win their hearts and minds in real time. You just have to get the thought in their head and hope to change their course by a few degrees. As we know, a few degrees change in course can take you to a very different endpoint over time.

[@KahnShawnery]

Being originally from SE Texas, it's nice to hear others who had the same experiences growing up in that region of the bible belt. I lived there during the Satanic Panic, it was scary at times being labeled an atheist. The rhetoric could lead to violence easily.

[@jasonsabbath6996]

I grew up in Dallas and often was in fights because I'm culturally Jewish and an athiest. As a kid, at least once ir twice a year, all the way through high school, I got into fights. I have even had a swastika painted on my home twice! Texas can really suck when you aren't Christian!

[@rey273]

i live in SE now as an atheist and queer person getting my major in STEM. i can't imagine how scary it must have been a few decades ago. now i can walk in daylight with my short hair (on a woman! gasp) and a rainbow pin on my person, and the worst that will happen is i get a few dirty looks. i can't imagine things so basic like pokemon or dnd or science being labeled as satanic and being hounded for it. (the science thing is actually a lot better nowadays; i feel like people are more open to the scientific process down here if you take the time and explain it to them in ways they can understand.)

[@timt5381]

There's no hate like religion's twisted "love".

[@jonharrison3114]

The solution is to get a gun

[@timt5381]

@@jonharrison3114 only a "solution" in a broken society where guns kill a hundred people a day. Everywhere else the solution isn't needed because the problem isn't fatal.

[@dunderbaer2430]

kind of irrelevant, but Democrats being called "the left of the political spectrum" and independants being called "the centre" physically hurt me.

[@szymonbaranowski8184]

what is left for you? 🤔 where would you put anarchists?

[@amycox5733]

@@szymonbaranowski8184I don’t really know much about politics, but as a European, I really wouldn’t consider the Dems to be very left leaning. They don’t even believe in public healthcare

[@dunderbaer2430]

@@szymonbaranowski8184 on the left. But democrats are center right, republicans are far right and independents are literally that. Not some homogeneous third party

[@ioanbotez7128]

​@@szymonbaranowski8184democrat party has the same policies as center- right parties in Europe, and that's quite clearly a more accurate classification once you consider what the left is all about. Anarchists range the entire left/ right spectrum, from anarchocommunists to anarchocapitalists.

[@aetherkid]

​​@@ioanbotez7128narchocapitalists are not, never were, and never could be anarchists. Capitalism is inherently contradictory to anarchism. AnCaps are just Far Right but hate being called out.

[@Tjnovakart]

I’m nonbinary and pansexual, and I got FAR more pushback from my conservative evangelical family when I told them I was atheist than when I told them I was either of these. So many evangelicals will take it as a personal slight against them if you disagree with their religious beliefs because they conflate their entire identity with their religion, and so it’s hard for them to separate the two. It’s been nearly a decade and my family is still trying to convince me to come back to the church, ignoring all my reasons for leaving in the first place. It really sucks, and I’d honestly consider myself very lucky in comparison to some of my other formerly religious friends because some of their parents just straight up think they’re evil rather than a little misguided.

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

I always wondered what nonbinary and pansexual etc. meant because it's illogical to the scientific side of human biology. I don't care for the politics or the human reasons... Only truth in its design. But that said... Religion is much worst off compared to bloody politics. Has humanity forgotten about their Holy Wars???

[@pechaa]

Wow. I’m amazed that your family is more concerned about atheism than any LGBTQ+ identity. I know how much my family looks down on people who are transgender. I guess they probably look down on me even more. I am atheist. My parents and one sibling have been praying for me every night for 30+ years to go back to the church. But they refuse to talk with me about it.

[@alastor8091]

You don't believe in God but you believe in that far left nonsense....

[@Tjnovakart]

@@alastor8091 I work in the medical field and have read the literature on trans healthcare (which now includes nonbinary people) in my spare time- I didn’t get my information from some random online forum like so many people seem to believe. So yes, I do believe the expertise of scientific researchers over a 2000 year old book written back when people thought the world was created in 7 days and slavery was morally sound - sue me.

[@alastor8091]

@@Tjnovakart bud, there is no science when it comes to what you're talking about. You're either male or female. You aren't a third gender because you don't feel feminine or masculine. So what are you really? Forget religion, I'm more just generally theistic to begin with. My issue is that you believe in made up bullhit too with 0 scientific backing.

[@YouthCoachingDK]

As a dane, one of the reasons why Scandinavian countries always rank at the top of most happy nations, i am sure, is because we also are among the least religious. We are also among the most free, wealthiest, least corrupt, and with less violence and crime, than most religious countries! So the notion, that you have to be "a believer", in order to have morals, is just pure nonsense! "You don't need religion to have morals. If you can't differentiate right from wrong/good from evil, you lack empathy and common sense, NOT religion"!

[@Forsworcen]

Anyone who argues that you can “hide” a part of who you are is immediately going down the wrong path.

[@JudojugsVtuber]

Yeah he had me up until he went "You could go your entire life without telling people you're an athiest" like no. No I can not. Religious people (the majority anyways) want many of my friends dead or to strip them of their rights. It goes hand in hand with those demographics you CAN'T control like gender, sexuality, and skin color. So me saying i'm an athiest directly tells my contemporaries in the LGBT community that I am likely safe due to not holding a dogma that directly tries to shun yet also control them.

[@knowEyeDeer]

/Anyone who argues that you can "hide" a part of who you are is immediately going down the wrong path//, unless it'd be harmful to your wellbeing to "out" your specific belief. People need to take care of themselves first, if your shelter or your next meal is in any way contingent upon what you believe; you might _need_ to fake it for a time. Especially if it might threaten your physical safety as well as your wellbeing. For anyone in that shite position, if you're reading this, please find external support groups. Otherwise you're going to need far more therapy later - one, to another, stay strong.

[@jasonGamesMaster]

Its not immediately obvious to folks, and you can argue against their bullshit without say "actually, as an atheist..." even in their own scriptures they are just wrong. I never volunteer my atheism, but I can easy counter most of their stupidity with their own bible verses. Religion is not like skintone, gender, or sexuality. There are plenty of Christians who ALSO hide their religiosity because it just doesn't come up.

[@theboombody]

I would agree. Hiding perceived problems is not good. Even if you've got a REAL problem like being a violent psychopath, hiding it only makes it worse. You need to be open and get help from others to get those feelings corrected if you've got a REAL problem like that.

[@RedSunUnderParadise]

I usually fire back with “Then please, shut up about your relationship with God first.”

[@randoprior4130]

I just came back from a wedding on the side of my family who are heavily religious. My favorite thing of the whole trip was talking to my cousin who has always been respectful and open to conversation. I've gone to church with him many times in life to experience it, I've been welcomed into his community and I've seen the good that his religion does for him. These videos encouraged me to again contribute to rational discourse with this guy, and it was a really awesome conversation again. I haven't seen him in years, but he is the same as he always has been. He doesn't try to convert me, he tries to understand why I think the way I do. And in a lot of ways he and I think very similarly and can respect the reasons for each other's ideologies. This channel is a great resource for a starting point to have conversations with religious people. It's also inspiring me to have more tolerance for theology and respect for those who have faith in it. Thanks for what you do Drew.

[@ОлегБочаров-щ8к]

It's nice people like that exist

[@PhillyCh3zSt3ak]

@@ОлегБочаров-щ8к not just OP's cousin, but OP themselves. It takes two to have a conversation.

[@MrCutlis]

This is cool to hear. It's easy to paint people in groups, especially on the internet. But when you really get down and talk to most people, they are just like you in a different place

[@kzloyd75]

Holy crap...I grew up in rural southern Illinois, attended SIU and I'm not that much older than Dr. Burge. I experienced first hand just how thoroughly religion pervades the 'good, old boy' and 'country girl' identities of the region. To hear someone like him speak about this topic with calm and objectivity yet still making it interesting and educational is both surprising and very much appreciated.

[@theundone777]

Some of the cruelest people I have ever met are in Southern Illinois. Including my family. I'm so glad I got away from there.

[@Downhuman74]

I grew up in Southern Illinois as well -- just outside of St. Louis. I'll never go back for this very reason.

[@MrJamesVanEngen]

🙂

[@capitalb5889]

I've never been to Illinois but I did know their Japanese campus quite well.

[@sailingspark9748]

I am not a christian, I gave it up decades ago and found solace and calm in buddha's teachings. I once made the mistake of telling a co-worker that. While I live in a fairly liberal part of the country, the entire tone of my work environment changed due to how my fellow co-workers now perceived me. I was no longer one of them, but an other. So yes, you are spot on.

[@bitrr3482]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 oh my god bruh shut the hell up

[@idkman4748]

​@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363ok. Noted. Now one question. Who tf asked?

[@idkman4748]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 oh. Pascal wager. I like it. But let me modify it a bit should I? Lets say Jews are right Jesus wasnt the son of God but rather a fake profet. If Im an atheist and Jews are right Im not parying or preaching to any God. If you are a Christian and Jews are right you not only pray to a fake god you are also making others do the same thing. Now tell me who is realy worse off here

[@lesscott4301]

Me also, but no one actually cares here. Because, as you will appreciate, I rarely mention the fact, but sometimes liberally scatter a bit of the Dhamma on FB or Twitter..

[@lesscott4301]

​@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 To me and many others, that is completely nonsensical. But obviously, a large part of your creed. Buddha taught not to believe in scripture, that is part of ours.

[@cassif19]

I had a similar realization about the importance of social justice when I became an atheist, as a white, cis, straight woman living in eastern Europe. My situation is fine, but you know... I'm not wearing "Atheist" on my forehead. I don't know how I would deal with something like that: not being able to go unnoticed in day to day life, as part of a minority group

[@SD-zz4ov]

​@@Едентийф what?

[@popopop984]

@@ЕдентийфWhat? What does this mean?

[@FactStorm]

Definitely a minority among your mostly Orthodox peers. Good luck :)

[@chee.rah.monurB]

I've been atheist since I was 15,& my family haven't gone to church in years,and Hrvatska is pretty catholic!I think you'll be fine.

[@chee.rah.monurB]

​@@SD-zz4ovWhat'd he say?

[@jwmmitch]

I would love for religion to become much more "keep it to yourself" in the USA I wish we could shift the core values to be more centered around observable truths and getting along

[@jtnachos]

No kidding. How did we get here? What a mess. Keep that crap to yourself. It should never influence everything around you.

[@jwmmitch]

@jtnachos I used to be a very devout Christian. At the time it seemed to make sense to essentially force it on everyone; Jesus is THE answer, right? I felt persecuted... I felt like I had the answer the whole world needed... I felt like people without faith were lost ...... looking at how I got from there to being an atheist is amazing to me that anyone believes that crap. If I hadn't been such a devout Christian in not sure I would actually believe that they truly believe

[@connor3284]

My guess is there are very many observable truths that you would prefer values not be centered around at all.

[@jwmmitch]

@connor3284 like what? If you're pro religion. My guess is you don't understand what an observable truth is. If you aren't intending to push religion I'm really curious what you mean

[@deductivereasoning4257]

Religion is non existent in California and has been since at least the 80's. Which state is the worst ran, year in and year out? Which state is the most expensive to live in? Which state has the worst homeless issue?

[@akipolies]

As an agnostic in Kansas, my lack of beliefs has been the explicit cause of two of my breakups and a lot of bullying in church settings. That said, I've had a lot of positive church interactions, too, but those mostly occurred in collegiate settings.

[@billyjoelbeans]

I have to ask, what is your definition of "agnostic"? Although this may be a mild tautological fallacy, in the formation of the word, and its root, it means "level of sureness", basically. That is to say, you are either gnostic in your beliefs, or agnostic. It has the "a" in front of it. basically, both athiests and theists can be "agnostic" or "gnostic". So when I hear someone say they are "agnostic" it almost sounds like a nothing sandwich. Very few athiests are fully convinced that no gods are *ever* possible(although there are arguments that maybe kinda sorta make that viable, but from ignorance). I'm genuinely curious. What do you mean when you call yourself that?

[@akipolies]

@@billyjoelbeans Hey, I get it. Generalized labels definitely encompass a spectrum. I'm of the belief that there is no god, but I'm not so arrogant as to say that I know that there aren't higher beings or claim to know their potential agendas. If there are, they're so far above my understanding that I could never hope to know, right?

[@billyjoelbeans]

@@akipolies My view is that a "personal" god is either tentatively evil(and therefore would be unworshipable), or cannot exist. There are too many things wrong with the view to justify it imo. But I wouldn't say there can't be nonpersonal gods necessarily. In my eyes, this makes me an agnostic atheist. And that is what I would call you, as well. And I'm pretty confident that's how it should be viewed. Whatever title you want to identify with is fair enough but I do think you meet the parameters of atheism

[@paulavery5889]

​@@billyjoelbeansthe existence and nature of God is unknowable and unprovable. So most of us are closer to being atheists than theists. The only difference is we don't arrogantly run around pretending to know. Nor do we gather in groups to discuss shit we don't believe in 😂

[@billyjoelbeans]

@@paulavery5889 what you say is valid, but technically, some versions of gods are conceivably provable in theory. What I'll say is the wording is a touch imprecise, or a bit of an argument from ignorance. A god very well could be proven at some point. I think such a claim can only apply to certain one's. I'll give you that, though, bc you referred to capital g god which is Abrahamic and it probs applies

[@rachelmoney4730]

My church and town (4k population) ostracized me for developing a movement disorder that they couldn’t pray away at the age of 16. I’m terrified to mention I’m no longer a Christian even not living in that town. Being ostracized for being disabled was… damaging to say the least. It took me a long time to deconvert in a desperate attempt to win “Gods favor” I supposedly lacked. I found out many years later that their indoctrination was part of the reason I developed the movement disorder to begin with. 😔

[@rachelmoney4730]

I’d really love a deep dive on Christian’s and ableism. It’s rampant and seriously damaging. The church loves to harm/kill their sick.

[@graphitebendy]

That absolutely sucks. I feel bad for you and hope your issues aren't too serious and you have been able to either control it or deal with it better.

[@mattmower6370]

Drew seems to have really stepped up the game on this channel, so many great guests and interviews lately!

[@DCA1971]

During my time in the military I was discriminated so many times simply for saying I was an atheist. I even had to hide it from one of my supervisors, but when he found out he requested that someone else supervise me.

[@themightymcb7310]

Honestly the correct response from that supervisor's boss should be "get over yourself and do your fucking job"

[@DCA1971]

@@themightymcb7310 The problem is that both my supervisor and his supervisor are very religious. I was told not to talk about atheism because that topic was inappropriate and controversial but they could talk about their imaginary god all the time and that was OK.

[@schwarzwolfram7925]

"Our religious is all about love and we love everyone... who thinks exactly like us."

[@dminter1234]

When I joined the military, I was asked my religious preference. I stated athiest. I was told that wasnt an option, and the recruiter wrote down " no preference"

[@DCA1971]

@@dminter1234 Same here. My name tags said "No Preference" because atheism was not an option. Not having a preference and being an athest are not the same thing.

[@xstout]

I'm not atheist, I'm actually Pagan, but I still like some of your videos. Anyone who is not Christian is definitely discriminated against in this country, and I'm glad to see some data to prove it. I've definitely encountered it some myself as a Pagan, and I know some Muslim and atheist friends have also had a lot of issues. Many years ago, when our Interfaith discussion group went to a town hall meeting to support our Muslim friend whose religious group was trying to open a mosque in the area, some protestors literally got in her face yelling threats and demanding to know where she was when 9/11 happened. Her parents legally immigrated here, she was born and raised here in the states, and she was just a kid in school when 9/11 happened. There are plenty of other examples I could give. It's shocking how these people will treat other human beings. Honestly, the vitriol people have for things that don't even affect them are confusing to me. People have such outrage over what other people believe, LGBTQ+ people, happily and voluntarily child-free straight couples, etc.

[@BryanLu0]

​@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363Proselytizing doesn't convert people like it used to. There is only 1 source for evidence of the Christian God (the Bible) and that isn't enough anymore. Sure it's an old source, but it's still only 1 source. Why does belief in Jesus grant access to Heaven and not just being a generally good person? It is a strange criteria.

[@lennonkelly-james2693]

​​@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363Stop trying to sell people a cure to an illness that they don't have. You look silly.

[@captain_khaos]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363the fact that it is belief in Jesus and not good deeds that get you to heaven is proof enough to me that even if your god were to exist I wouldnt respect him in the slightest. thats just evil.

[@captain_khaos]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 even if what you said is true, my belief does not change. in fact, that makes god even worse in my eyes it is impossible to perfectly split people into good and evil. human morality and actions are too broad to just do that; you’ll have a line where a significant ammount of people on either side have no objective difference on any metric the fact that you get eternal punishment for not conforming to whatever standard god has, and you say it is much worse than what i could imagine? that makes me think that god is everything but worth following. i dont have reasons to believe he exists, but if he does, then he is deeply disturbed, moreso than our worst dictators. for he is doing the exact same thing, to arbitrarily split humanity into people who deserve eternal good and those who deserve eternal suffering; its the equivalent of seeing someone give a cent and reward them with a mansion, and see someone steal a candy and hang them there is no ammount of finite bad that justifies eternal punishment. less so if the punishment is as severe as you claim.

[@captain_khaos]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 also, jesus christ is that flawed what kind of delusions have you gone through to believe that any of that is in any way, shape or form fair? i reiterate, if god exists, he is not worth following. i dont care what he could do as punishment or as reward. he allows people who’ve done nothing but good to suffer, claims we’re intrinsically flawed and must repent, and to top it off *he* *made* *us* *this* *way* *himself*

[@qsrfb]

It's been said many times before, but it's oh so true "When you've been privileged, equality feels like oppression".

[@pvpunderstood]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Why did you choose this one comment to ignore every point made by GMO Skeptic and just preach There were other more topical ones

[@pvpunderstood]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 I was asking why you chose to reply to the comment that you did, instead of one more relevant to what youre saying. In general though for cases like this, like your experiences, confirmation bias goes hard. You realize theres literally millions or billions of muslims and members of other, objectively conflicting religions that cant coexist that have had similar experiences. They all say a similar story to yours how they have seen gods work and proof of god and god has spoken to them in their own lives. Except... thats impossible if everyone "sees evidence of" different, conflicting gods.

[@pvpunderstood]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Im going to ignore everything you say if you ignore everything I say. Please answer my question; and allow some question of your beliefs into your life. Ive questioned my athiest beliefs many times, and I feel more secure for it. You realize theres literally millions or billions of muslims and members of other, objectively conflicting religions that cant coexist that have had similar experiences. They all say a similar story to yours how they have seen gods work and proof of god and god has spoken to them in their own lives. Except... thats impossible if everyone "sees evidence of" different, conflicting gods.

[@pvpunderstood]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 1: no not you AGAIN 2: what 3: nobody says 3 and nobody says 5 and NOBODY says 6.66 and Jesus died so he doesn't say much nowadays 4: You're describing an intestinal parasite

[@pvpunderstood]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 uhhh no he's pretty dead Bro bled out on a cross like centuries ago some bozo wrote a book saying he can revive himself and is immortal but like that ain't evidence

[@CapriUni]

As for the (apparent) animosity between the Atheists and the None-in-Particulars: having been in both social circles over the years, I think it comes down to a lot of the "Nones" actually having a very deep and personal belief in *some* form of the Divine, but having a strong distaste for expressing that belief through socially-organized ritual and theology. So when asked to check a box on a survey to answer the question: "What's your religious affiliation?" the only box that fits is 'none of the above'

[@riseofdarkleela]

That would have been accurate about me for the longest time with my former faith in what I now term “The Perfect Woo”. I was definitely anti atheist as well as anti Christian. Now I’m just a garden variety agnostic atheist.

[@matt2027]

I personally think if you were going to try to fit most of the "nones" into one of the established categories that we're all generally familiar with, Deist is probably a closer fit than Theist or Atheist, even it is isn't 100% accurate.

[@CapriUni]

@@riseofdarkleela Okay, so "The perfect Woo" made me laugh out loud. Meanwhile, I, too, have become some mix of agnostic and atheist. I'm agnostic in theory because "Do you believe in God?" is impossible to answer if none of the people asking, and none of the people answering can agree on either what "Belief" means, or what "God" means.And I'm atheist in practice, because no matter how many gods do or do not exist, I've made the active decision not to worship *any* of them. The countable number of gods in my personal pantheon is "zero."

[@CapriUni]

@@matt2027 The phrase I encountered most often when I moved in those circles was: "Spiritual, but not religious."

[@CapriUni]

PS: Also, if a pollster asked me if I liked atheists, I'd have to answer "Which ones?" Because I feel *some* atheists (present company excepted) use their platforms as an excuse to be Islamophobic and/or Antisemitic, and I don't want to be associated with them.

[@Cri_Jackal]

Around age 4 to 6, I thought everyone believed in God, EVERYONE, media had taught me that was the status quo of society. I come to not believe in God, and when my family asks if I do I tell them as such, I then come to realize my family isn't really all that religious at all, nor was anyone I knew really, it was a bit if a moment for me. The grip Christianity has had on general culture had literally gaslit a 6 year old into assuming that their entire family were religious zealots who would hate them if they didn't believe in God.

[@belstar1128]

I also was a Christian when i was for but i grew out of it at age 6.

[@emmadasilva1794]

Great video! I'm a Christian who's sick and tired of the US Christians who keep trying to find a persecution narrative.

[@seanmoley3142]

Just the fact that you had to 'come out' as an atheist proves the danger of theists wanting to control you and decide what you do and don't do in your life. I feel for you and applaud you for following your own path in life, wherever that leads you.

[@نسيتكلمةالمرور-ذ5ب]

"Wherever that leads you" Haha how funny You are like animals, you don't care where you walk and to where you will arrive. The important thing is that you just wanna walk ...... like a cow

[@greyarea805]

Troll

[@BryanLu0]

​@@نسيتكلمةالمرور-ذ5بHow does not believing in God mean that you are mindless? Especially in this context, I think it would be more mindless to continue being a Christian to appease other people.

[@نسيتكلمةالمرور-ذ5ب]

@@BryanLu0 I didn't say that disbelieving in God mean you are mindless but you seem to have deduced this yourself, Bravo 👏👏👏+ I love that . Basically, I didn't talk about belief in God in my comment, i just commented on the sentence that he said

[@BryanLu0]

@@نسيتكلمةالمرور-ذ5ب "You are like animals" is exactly that - You = Atheist in this context and "you don't care where you walk and to where you will arrive" = you don't think = mindless Congratulations on somehow still thinking atheists couldn't have deduced that from what you wrote.

[@andyb1653]

Society has changed so drastically in just the past 6 years, I'd consider just about any survey (and on this topic in particular) from 2012 to be all but obsolete. If this survey were conducted in 2023, you'd get completely different numbers, especially once you sort participants by political affiliation.

[@goldenageofdinosaurs7192]

I think the numbers would definitely be different, but if I had to guess, it would be that they’d probably only change between 5-15% in general. There would be a couple that might be outside that, but I think it will still take a long time (longer than 10 years anyway) to alter those opinions significantly more than that. I’d really like to see an updated version of that first graph we saw. The ‘hot-cold’ one. I really enjoy looking at this kind (or any kind, really. I just love graphs!) of data, so this episode was right down my alley.

[@rdean150]

This is exactly my reaction. I would expect these numbers to be significantly different now.

[@nothanks6549]

I agree with you. I think though, that Evangelical Christians have been acting like a persecuted minority for far longer than since 2012. So I think it's fair to draw the conclusion that Christians haven't been persecuted throughout American history even though they would have claimed to be for a long time.

[@andyb1653]

@@goldenageofdinosaurs7192 15% is actually a pretty significant amount

[@missrobin2088]

I came here to say this. I'm 57 and have totally changed my views since I experienced covid denial and trump support in my now former church.

[@thereallocke8065]

3:15 almost losing your job at a Christian homeless shelter over theological differences really gives the game away

[@mekannatarry1929]

Well, when you can do good things without desiring brownie points, other folk can get jealous of your virtue lol.

[@darlalathan6143]

That's because Christians want the homeless to depend on them for basic survival, so they can more easily convert them! Anybody with a job and housing can walk out of a church and never come back if the pastor or congregation offended them.

[@JasonsAccount15926]

I wonder what the results would be if the question was asked in some sense “I feel as though atheism is a threat to my own beliefs.” I think the perception of the belief system has more to do with the “dislike” than the perception of the people who believe it. The idea that someone can be living their best life as an atheist can make people who devote themselves to religion confront the idea that they may be wasting their life on a lie…people don’t generally like that feeling.

[@hippychicken82]

I think u have nailed it!

[@CarlytheWolf23]

I remember when I was in 2nd grade, somehow a discussion about god happened and ended with a bunch of my classmates being confused and asking why I didn't believe in god. I'm 20 now, and I still am atheist, I'm lucky to only ever have a tame experience as an atheist growing up. For me I couldn't logically make sense of how a deity could even exist or if one did, why could it let these awful things happening in every day life? If everything is God's plan, why did he choose this over not suffering under God's gaze. I can't personally believe in a god who let's their children suffer and purposely makes them perform actions that causes such suffering. You could say it was because the apple of knowledge, but again, if every single portion of our lives is predetermined by what god as made to happen. Why did he make the choice to force his children to "disobey" his words when they had no control over their actions anyway? I feel like under that narrative god is a cruel being that relishes in our suffering or is like a bored child playing a video game, doing anything to entertain himself within the confines of the game, and with this game, he's got full control being the very creator of it. I understand why faith can help find one's purpose, as I have experienced what it feels to feel like theres no purpose in anything in life. But unfortunately religion isn't for me, and I don't hate anyone who has religious beliefs, I only hate those who use their religion for their own selfish desires, or as an excuse for discrimination or for commiting crimes.

[@therealjetlag]

Not only does he let them suffer, he makes them suffer. If he has a plan for all of us, if he is both omnipotent (all powerful) and omniscient (all knowing), then he gives kids cancer knowing they will suffer. The other excuse is “free will”. He gives us “free will” knowing we will fail him. He’s all knowing right? So he knew when he gave me free will that I wouldn’t believe in him and he knows what proof I require but doesn’t give it. He MADE me intelligent with critical thinking skills KNOWING I would not believe in him and, hence, go to hell. He literally creates people that will fail. On purpose. To go to hell. How has he done this? By delivering his message in a series of short stories, some fact, some “allegorical”, in a language he knew would become extinct, be translated into another language that is practically extinct, that is so open to interpretation as to create divisions and factions in his followers (did you know there are two versions of the 10 commandments? I didn’t), have those followers actively kill each other because the other side is “doing it wrong”. If he’s so perfect and all knowing, why did he have to have two testaments? Did he change his mind? Did we change? Then why didn’t he just create us the way he wanted the first time? Couldn’t he? And what about this great flood? Did he not see that coming? Did he create all of those people knowing he would kill them? Oh, free will again. So he’s not omniscient. Which one is it, people? That is now my chosen response to “God has a plan for you”. I say, “Does he? Is it like the plan for all the people he killed in the flood? Or the millions he killed in other graphic and interesting ways in the bible? Or slavery, maybe. That was his plan for those people” And then tells me he’s a good and loving god? And I’m just supposed to believe this?

[@iamking132]

I had a similar experience in Kindergarten

[@theGrooveChampion]

someone who agrees with you... kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y6TYp56tg76Gh9E

[@g.d.graham2446]

As a confident Catholic, the one attitude I am sympathetic towards when it comes to atheism is the Problem of Evil, because if one has no good answer to that problem, then atheism is the most logical conclusion

[@jonharrison3114]

God Supposedly gave us the gift of free will unlike other animals which are almost completely controlled by their instincts

[@TheHigherVoltage]

Your experiences with Christianity and 'persecution' mirrored my own in many ways. I lost about half of my friends and family when I stated I was no longer a believer.

[@tidespath2240]

I’m sure I lost many friends by default just by becoming atheist and they were the best friends I’ve ever had but I still talk to them if I ever see them

[@ethanlewis1453]

This video does not at all represent the common Christian viewpoint. I've been to many churches and none of them have ever mentioned Christian persecution in the USA as a major problem, but do mention as they should and as this video shamefully omits that many Christians are shot and killed for being Christians each and every year, especially in Africa.

[@TheHigherVoltage]

@@ethanlewis1453 This video absolutely represents the common Christian viewpoint...because it's what the bible orders. If someone leaves the faith, they are to be shunned or worse. Christians were killing countless numbers of apostates and 'heretics' for over 1500 years in the West until humanists and liberals finally took over the governments and put the church in the backseat. There's numerous passages to support this. In the Old Testament, it's an automatic death sentence to leave the faith. In the New Testament, the orders are clear : believers are not to "yoke themselves to nonbelievers"...."wheat must be separated from the chaff"..."what brotherhood can light have with darkness?"...etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. There is no Christian persecution in the USA, however, you're wrong in claiming churches don't preach that Christians are persecuted here. Christianity in the USA screams "help we are being persecuted!" every time they can't get their way, or because their religion isn't promoted at the expense of all others, or simply making false attacks up to go on the attack themselves. Remember the "War on Christmas" that didn't exist? Or anytime a public school teacher tries to get their students to all pray to Jesus and told they can't do that? And they cry persecution for not being able to push their specific religion onto children? Heck, I can pull up any number of videos of Christian zealots right now demanding their God be "put back in schools"...and it wasn't there in the first place. I'm an ex-Christian that pays attention. I know the game all too freaking well. "...shamefully omits that many Christians are shot and killed for being Christians each and every year, especially in Africa." Oh for crying out loud. Christians are murdering people each and every day in Africa and other countries - it's just rarely reported in the West. But when it is reported, it's because it's so massive it leaks out. Like Kony and the LRA. Heck, right now, gays are being persecuted in many African countries because the American Evangelicals convinced the locals to demonize, imprison and even murder people there - just for being gay. No doubt that Christians get murdered. However, 9 times out of 10, it's Christians murdering other people - especially in America. Right now, there are hundreds, if not thousands of churches in the USA with preachers and pastors flat out demonizing half the country and many calling for the arrest, persecution or flat out murder of everyone not as radical right as they are. Especially anyone and everyone on the left.

[@ethanlewis1453]

​@@TheHigherVoltage The example of perfection for a Christian is Jesus who never used violence against a human being. The world's most prolific killers are the anti-Christian pro-atheist politicians Stalin and Mao, whose faith was giant government just like most modern atheists faith. Christians are the people who brought the world to approach civilization such as by leading efforts to end slavery. Christians like MLK who lead the civil rights movement. Jesus is the one setting the example for Christianity and he didn't shun anyone. Name ONE pastor in the entire USA who is calling for the death of anyone at all. Surely if "many" do this you can identify one? I've never heard any pastor calling for the death of anyone. The most violent that Christians have been was the Crusades which were almost entirely a defense against Muslims attacking first. Certainly the Crusades were nothing compared to violence by pro-atheist Stalin and Mao.

[@elgooghosent7080]

@@ethanlewis1453 those african/arab countries that condamn christians probably do the same with atheist.

[@hypnoamber3248]

I'm a third generation atheist. I was so ostracized in my community growing up that it gave me PTSD of Christians. I was a little girl and was told I was going to hell because my mom was divorced and because she didn't take me to church. Frankly very cruel stuff and so up close. Many people would grab my face and look into my blue eyes (people were fascinated with my eye color and felt it was ok to touch me) and then choose to tell me all these horrible things that were going to happen to me. It didn't help that I was Neuro divergent, but it also gave me crippling social anxiety as a kid. And the kids were just as bad because they learned it from their parents. because of that I resented Christians as a teen and young adult. I had to go to therapy to work through those feelings because I didn't want to have that feeling towards others, I had actually empathy for people, I still have an irrational fear of certain situations and people who are super religious. I couldn't imagine growing up in that community and it being drilled into you that if you didn't conform you would be shunned. Or if you didn't conform you would be in the place of eternal torture. Pure and simple is mental and emotional abuse. And the kicker is my city wasn't even that religious. Most people didn't go to church but the ones that did were the absolute worst. Like I don't understand why Uber christians do that, that they feel it's ok to say those things to a child, or to anyone, who just doesn't believe how they do. Thankfully I had supportive grandparents and a supportive mom. None of them took any shit and did their best to protect me.

[@FactStorm]

Don't like the term "third geneation atheist" although I get what you mean by it. I am only concerned about apologist noobies using that as a reason to claim that indoctrination/upbringing conceived yet another atheist..when in reality, it is just a position of question or rejecting unfounded supernatural claims. I understand that you may have had grandparents who were atheists, and in turn made the successors atheists. We wouldn't want the fanatics to double down on the wrong notion of "AtHeISM iS jUsT AnOtHeR rElIgIOn".

[@g.d.graham2446]

So sorry to hear that. As a Catholic who has been through some shit at an Evangelical high school, I hope you're doing alright 😔🙏

[@ASweetShortCake]

I like your use of the word “conform.” That’s how I view religion, personally. It’s not, necessarily, that I don’t believe in god. I just see it as a place where everyone must conform and believe in the “correct” opinion, whereas if you do not you’re guilt tripped and told you’ll be punished by god for the rest of eternity. You can’t refute it because it’s something that has no evidence- that can’t be proven. So you’re left feeling that maybe the way you perceive reality is absolutely wrong, and that you need to listen to them because they know the truth, not you. That’s why, while I’m hesitant to call it such myself, I don’t necessarily disagree with you when you say it’s mental and emotional abuse. Even now as I write out this reply, the religious narrative I’m so used to is refuting the words I’m saying. You’re not far off with your abuse claim. I keep saying to myself, “But that’s not how religion REALLY is! Your thinking is simply flawed!” Like how I’ve been told before whenever a Christian refutes the claims of an atheist. Though, I’m sincerely sorry about what happened to you growing up. Those people just use religion as a means to assert their power over someone else. I highly doubt that that is what their religion said to do in the first place. You didn’t deserve that. Best wishes!

[@shrekiscool4743]

​@@ASweetShortCake I don't even blame the hyper mega Christians or whatever. A lot of them genuinely think they're helping people and improving their lives by trying to convert them. So while they seem like assholes from the outside, I can see the thought process - they think they're educating atheists like how we go to school and learn about science

[@LauraFunFunFloweries]

Personally I don't say, "I've lost my faith;" I say, "I noticed the BS, cruel, contradictions, & decided, nope."

[@littleblueby7748]

Yeah, I didn't lose anything. I gained a new way of life, I gained confidence, self love, self acceptance, and freedom from the oppressive and stifling environment I was raised in.

[@pervasivedoubt150]

Ryan is right that typically you won’t need to admit your atheist identity BUT it’s a very common feeling of fear that you will slip. In religious conversations, you have to keep your guard up or be vague just to avoid it. It’s… uncomfortable

[@IsaRican810]

I’m going to be honest, as a bisexual atheist who was raised church of Christ that bit at the end of “you can just keep it to yourself be you’ll be fine” made me HIGHLY uncomfortable. Literally the same thing my dad once said to me about being queer.

[@behindthescreen2054]

@@IsaRican810 Yeah, that gave off serious 'don't ask, don't tell' vibes, which was a surpassingly appalling end to an otherwise enjoyable video.

[@monus782]

As an ex-Catholic I feel I have an advantage other groups of apostates may not have and that is that since most Catholics aren’t really practicing (at least in North America and Europe) I pretend to most people to be the average lapsed Catholic who rarely goes to Mass, I grew up in a fairly devout family so I feel this would be more tolerable to my parents than coming out as the anticlerical atheist I actually am. While I was devout myself I really disliked Evangelicals because they didn’t consider us to be Christians at all often and yet I heard a lot of the same rhetoric mentioned here except that I believed martyrdom would allow me to skip purgatory (and some of the persecution complex might be justified as Catholics were heavily discriminated against until the 60’s when JFK got elected). Even if I was still Catholic at all I’m sure Evangelicals wouldn’t like me anyways so I just pretend to avoid the worst backlash (and being a Mexican immigrant in Texas doesn’t help at all, I can hide my atheism but I can’t hide my ethnicity and based on some experiences I avoid rural areas for the most part now).

[@darlalathan6143]

That's why I came out as an Atheist. If it's public knowledge, I don't have to worry about someone finding out or blowing my cover!

[@AlexsGoogleAccount]

I've been attending a Unitarian church this year and while I haven't advertised my church affiliation or "made it part of my identity", the handfuls of people who are aware that I attend church services every Sunday clearly think better of me because of it. I haven't hid that I am an atheist and I've never been ostracized over it, but there definitely seems to be something different in my dynamic with those people now.

[@nappa3550]

Don't force yourself to go to a church you don't like. Comfort matters. I'm not a Unitarian universalist, but a general Christian Universalist (non denominational).

[@AlexsGoogleAccount]

I do like the church. It's complicated. If I would have started attending under different circumstances, I probably would have passed on from them after the first visit. They have a more traditional church service structure, sing hymns that are a bit uncomfortably similar to hymns I sang growing up, have spiritual-ish language that I don't relate to, and are predominantly older and whiter. I don't see any men there in the 25-35 age range. But we started attending while my partner was on house arrest pending trial. He wanted to find a religious community and explore himself spiritually, and church after church we tried turned him away, including the modern humanist churches in our area. The Unitarian Universalist church took us in when no other church in our area would, shared resources with us, provided a space where he felt comfortable being himself, and spreads a fantastic message. They continue to check in with us and offer much needed support and they've been an extremely positive facet to our lives this year.

[@earthdrawn]

@@AlexsGoogleAccountas an atheist living in the southern US, I have completely “used” UU church attendance in conversation to fit in. If pressed, I’ve never denied my atheism, but I’ve certainly allowed others their own assumptions when it made my life easier.

[@nappa3550]

@@AlexsGoogleAccount I'm sorry those churches turned you away. A lot of Christians never practice what Christ teaches. All I can say is that those are how the true church is supposed to be. Philadelphia, the true church that preserves throughout the ages.

[@themightymcb7310]

@@nappa3550 Philadelphia has a Unitarian Universalist church that throws hardcore shows in the basement, sick place.

[@sueokada6968]

I watched your intro three times. You’re so articulate, thoughtful, and empathetic. Does this world ever need more folks like you in it. Thank you, Drew. ❤

[@TheBoogerJames]

"Nobody fights for nothing in particular" had me laughing.

[@hollenfeuer1]

About the slop. My brothers and I grew up as non believers. All of us had times where we gave it a shot, but never got pulled in. Anyway, one day I brought up while playing an online game how we were all atheists, and both of my brothers got all defensive. I never got anything useful out of my older brother as he was all up in Peterson. My little brother on the other hand said while he did not actually believe in a god, he is living as if he does. He thinks atheists are responsible for most of the worlds problems, and homogeneity is the healthiest way to run a country. I can see why even an Atheist would look down on other Atheists now.

[@hollenfeuer1]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 I don't give a single shit about what your book claims. It says slavery is ok.

[@ichaukan]

Growing up as someone who was basically an atheist all along in a small town of churchgoers, even though I spent a lot of time at the Methodist church in town but never felt like I had any "faith" all along. That place was really more about fostering community than anything else. What you said about atheists being a marginalized minority that can hide their status easily hit the nail on the head. That right there is a big part of how I developed my own understanding of how discrimination works, and as such developed my empathy.

[@LoreleiStockhausen]

I came out as an atheist first. People at worst tolerated my anti-theistic sensibilities and religious trauma frustrations. In the 00s, it was inputting religion into the government everywhere. I was so upset with the theocratic movement. Then I came out as a trans woman, and now I feel like my government wants to eradicate me in Texas. Theocrats have the power, and now they are absolutely terrifying.

[@sleepyazazel]

​@@dewaldt8104money?

[@darlalathan6143]

@@dewaldt8104 That costs money, and trans people have high unemployment and homelessness rates due to discrimination.

[@mattgilbert7347]

As someone with approximately 10yrs experience in market, political, & social research this was really interesting and enlightening. Thanks to both of you!

[@GS-md1ex]

I’m a Catholic, but personally I have never met an Atheist I disliked nor had a dislike of Atheists in general. I do know that a somewhat common occurrence, intentional or not, is an Atheist saying something along the lines of “How could you believe in god or a divine being, that’s just so stupid and/or silly.” There are many times when a person who is not otherwise against Atheism will be met with a response like that, which then biases them against all Atheists, even though most simply go about their day as anyone else would.

[@VulcanLogic]

I'm very comfortable around Catholics as an atheist, particularly with Pope Francis running the show. He's a scientist and doesn't let dogma get in the way of that.

[@VulcanLogic]

My mom converted to Catholicism and I've been to mass and never had issues with Catholics. Despite some of the teachings of the church, Catholics tend to line up well with atheists on a number of issues, including science, gay rights (as in at least equal rights), and reproductive rights.

[@darlalathan6143]

Persecution makes some Atheists mean, like the Amazing Atheist or the O'Hair Family during the 20th century, especially Madalyn Murray O'Hair, "The Most Hated Woman In America!"

[@megzasaurusrex]

So growing up in Colorado being atheist was no big deal. No one really asked me or talked about religion much. However that changed so much when I moved to OK. I feel like I can't tell anyone my views. Even if I'm not saying anything bad. Just like you said, mentioning evolution gets people mad at me. However, Christians feel just fine and safe saying all kinds of horrible opinions about my beliefs. I hate it.

[@mayamelina6]

Something that I’d appreciate you touching on is people who grew up without religion. It seems the topic is always focused on people who are either religious or who were religious and became atheist or agnostic. I personally grew up in the southern USA in a non-religious family (no label) and have decided to label myself as an atheist. (It has been a tough road…) I don’t meet a lot of people from the USA who were born into an atheist or non-religious family. Most of the people I know who have a similar background to myself grew up in certain areas of Europe. Your videos are really interesting. Thank you for the work you put in.

[@samhutchison9582]

Exactly. I see so much of the whole religion discourse as religious people and people who left religion. I know there are a ton of us who grew up irreligious. I guess the reason we don't hear much about our group is that most of us, coming from life outside of religion, don't tend to wade into religious discourse. In the same way that I who never grew up around or talked about surfing would never take the energy to join conversations about surfing. Overall, I do think people when discussing religion would address us. Not the demographic or amorphous us, but the real us.

[@quonit37]

I also grew up Atheist and I'm in America. No need to read this comment it's just me talking about my experiences growing up particularly in elementary school with this in mind. A lot of the trauma that I can actually remember from school was kids and teachers being mean to me over atheism. One time I mentioned I didn't believe in god to a kid and he started yelling at me and getting angry at me, and the teacher stepped in and was like "we shouldn't talk about our beliefs (not being on my side)" and I had to get in the car to go home before he stopped yelling at me It was one of the things bullies picked on me for, the stuff they'd talk about was stuff like "she picks her nose" or "she doesn't believe in god" and "she doesn't have a crush" mostly just "she's weird". St.Patricks day was celebrated by the school and everyone could dress out of uniform to wear something green and every year I would wear a red snake shirt instead, and explain to people that St.Patrick is known for "killing all the snakes" and snakes was actually a metaphor for anyone who wasn't christian, including atheists I remember there was this thing called Aftercare where if you got left at school too long they'd put you in a classroom with other kids so a teacher could look over you, and the teacher started reading bible quotes and I told her "I don't believe in god so I'm not participating" and she was really pissy about it but I left anyways I made a big deal at 6 about not doing the pledge of allegiance, specifically the "under god" part and other kids judged me for that and the school board got mad at my mom but my mom defended my legal right to not do it

[@mayamelina6]

@@quonit37 I think that your experience is interesting and unfortunate… Even though I grew up in a very Christian, conservative area, I didn’t have too much trouble growing up. Probably just because I kept to myself a lot and only had a few close friends. I also stopped saying the pledge of allegiance. I think in middle or high school. I still stood, but did not hold my hand to my chest or recite it. I didn’t start having issues until I became an adult. I don’t voice being an atheist much, but it’s no secret. Mostly it has been uncomfortable because I work in the funeral industry where almost everyone is very religious and older so they cannot fathom a “non-believer”. I wear a small pentacle necklace and one coworker asked me if I’m Jewish. 😂 I told her no and explained a Jewish star is different, but I didn’t go much further with the conversation. I get by, but sometimes I have to remind myself that it may be dangerous to be open about it. It’s the same thing with race and sexual orientation here… lots of bigots so you have to weed through that to find community that’s accepting.

[@quonit37]

​@@mayamelina6 I heard someone I trust the opinion of very much once say that "I think saying you're an atheist is anti-social behavior". When telling people I'm queer (nonbinary + aro/ace) the worst I faced was people calling me "weird", but even in accepting communities of people, bringing up religion just is not allowed because it is very deep in people's most emotional experiences they've had in their life, and it's also not just their religion but their community and upbringing. People are much more hostile to these ideas because they feel more personal, even in accepting and inclusive spaces.

[@ジュレジュ]

As an immigrant to the US who was mostly raised in the US, my family raised me secular and I too took upon the atheist label later. I appreciate the pain and religious trauma that afflicts many of those atheists with those backgrounds, and it certainly justifies a disproportionate focus on their demographic for purely ethical reasons, but I've always been super curious about the experiences of others like myself. What other correlations occur there, if any at all. How it affects our attitudes and relationship to religion compared to atheist who have previously been religious. What makes us self-identify as atheist rather than continuing to exist in a vague miasma of unreligion, or lack of attachment to any religion, compared to other atheists. Etc.

[@lucadivine3862]

When he said "nones" i thought he meant "nuns" and i was so confused until i realized...

[@Zookiethecrimecookie]

Same

[@NiglyasHoge]

I am so happy that I was born and raised in a non-religious environment.

[@NiglyasHoge]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363I'll believe that when I have evidence. Your book doesn't scare me.

[@uteriel282]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 even if you dont realize it yourself as long as you dont have evidence to support your claim its as good as a lie to anyone who doesnt believe the same thing as you. so how about you stop wasting everyones time trying to convert people and simply let everyone live how they want to?

[@uteriel282]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 everything you said is nothing more than the indoctrinated opinion of an uneducated person who has no understanding of physics, biology and chemistry. claiming natural phenomena were done by a higher being without any form of evidence is an affront to the aquired knowledge and dedication of people throughout human history. if you want to keep living in the past then by all means go ahead. but stop trying to drag others down with you.

[@Ambrosia-]

Me too, I am a free thinker and a free woman 😊.

[@Lauriestrode1978]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363you live a lie, oh you need to love god and love his son and have a pretty relationship with them so you can avoid being tortured by him in hell forever, the fact you have to bring up hell and say you don’t want to go there just proves you coward to this god out of trembling fear and your blind enough to call it love, that’s not how true relationships work, you don’t love someone out of that person insecurely using terror and great wrath on you just to get you to so call love that person, that’s the brain rot of your religion, you call loving something out of fear true love.

[@paigeharrison3909]

Also born in East Texas. Borh of my parents are atheists, but my mother was much less outspoken about it than my dad. My grandparents took me to church and i even attended vacation Bible school. Not until middle school did i decide i was an atheist. My father used to bring me books about all different religions, which basically taught me that while i can learn something from all of them, there's also not a single one i could really take seriously. In 9th grade i was asked to write a paper on someone i thought did something heroic. I wrote about Madelyn Murray O'Hair. This resulted in my teacher making a call to my parents because she was "concerned. " My parents thought that was pretty funny.

[@patrickwoods2213]

As an atheist myself, I don’t consider Madalyn Murray O’ Hair to be a hero in any sense. She disowned her own son for becoming a Christian- and even tried to force her kids to become Soviet Citizens. She was arrogant and smug, and was verbally abusive towards anyone who dared to disagree with her. There wasn’t a compassionate bone in her body as far as I’m concerned. I’m all for keeping prayer out of schools, and taxing churches. It was just too bad that a person like her was the poster child for secular thinking at that time.

[@andrewtime2994]

I think O'Hair is the reason that atheists are hated. Not only did she hit all the talk shows insulting people with as much hostility as she could, she happily labeled herself the most hated person in America. And bragged about it. I think that a lot of people say they hate atheists because they think atheists want to be hated and enjoy it. So it looks pretty funny when those same people consider being hated a cause for concern. This is most confusing for younger people who do not remember O'Hair, who died in the mid-eighties.

[@martin2289]

Here in Canada, with the exception of certain areas of little concern, being an atheist is generally no big deal at all. Our country these days is very much a "live and let live" society for the most part. That said, the pernicious toxicity and hateful rhetoric coming from demented U.S. religious zealots is still prevalent in online spaces, especially those infested with right-wing political propaganda.

[@mikej238]

lol, I knew you would bring up " right wing " Which areas do you think being atheism is a problem? I'm a conservative atheist living in Calgary....its not a problem. You sound like the typical left wing eastern bag of 💩

[@jtnachos]

May I please move to your beautiful country? I'm so tired of this crap, it's everywhere. Can't escape from it!

[@FactStorm]

Yup, Canada is indeed more chill in most aspects really..and this is coming from an American.

[@chee.rah.monurB]

Everything you said is right,BUT I'd also like to oint out that when this same country increased gasoline prices (thus forcing a lot of people to pay more money to travel the same distance),and a lot of truckers protested the decision,YOUR GOVERNMENT tred to supress them!Canadians can also be zealots,just over different things.

[@deductivereasoning4257]

I'm all about the comments and have been for about 12 years now, and well, I've seen comments here and there, but prevalence is not something I've observed. Show me any popular grifter channels that condemn anyone...

[@teeellingson6788]

I grew up with and were surrounded by multiple religions. Best friends were a Jehovahs Witness and Baptist, teammates were Seventh Day, Christian and even Jewish. I attended a Catholic College and a Nazarene University. Years ago I discovered organized religion is too controlling and left no room for faith so I became a solitary Wiccan and have never been happier being closer to nature, my faith, my family, my sanity, the universe in all its glory and my purpose 🥰

[@adriancarter7787]

Thank you for working with an expert who showed their data and sources. That's the level of discourse we should encourage on this platform.

[@soccerruben1]

Though the graphs and data are very simplified and not as accurate. Like, just because you’re an independent voter doesn’t mean you’re a moderate/centrist, and just because you vote Democrat doesn’t mean you’re on the left. That’s my criticism of it.

[@elohi]

My family loves to gaslight me when I call them out for treating or talking to me differently when it comes to my non religious beliefs. I’m “crazy” or “being mentally tormented.” Prolly by demons oooooohh noooo.

[@vivitan7782]

Who do they hate more, Pagans. I'm a humanistic Pagan, when I came out I lost a bunch of Christians friends. They have tried to disrupt our festivals, they have fired gun over our heads at rituals. Some of them have taken "suffer a witch to live" much too seriously.

[@tonichan89]

It's especially infuriating that traditions they are so protective of and gung ho for ("christmas" aka yule) are stolen and culturally appropriated traditions of pagans.

[@zephie531]

I’m an atheist pagan and wow do some atheists hate us too. A lot of atheist spaces don’t feel right because I get challenged for my ‘irrational’ beliefs and the ‘harm’ I’m doing by being religious even though I’m a very relaxed and completely solitary practitioner. That’s why I tend to go with the ‘none’s since even though I’m an atheist I don’t feel like I fit.

[@captainnarwhal1064]

@@zephie531 Out of curiosity, what exactly does being an atheistic pagan entail? I'm guessing atheistic paganism is more along the lines of taking the teachings of pagan stories/gods but not actually believing they really exist, kinda like the satanic temple using lucifer as a symbol/figurehead for rebellion and knowledge but not believing in an actual satan? I'm not very familiar with paganism in general beyond the same "evil baby eaters" stereotype that p much all non-mainstream religions (or lack thereof) have so it'd be nice to actually hear what it means from someone who practices it.

[@ThornForTheWynn]

​@@AndyMcFarland-lu9ft I'm not anymore, but at one point I was an atheistic pagan. For me, it was using the gods as representations of my values: The Morrigan, the Irish goddess of death and battle, was for my respect for new life coming from the death of other things and strength in the face of adversity. Ogma, the Irish god of knowledge (and, I believe, strength) was for my value of knowledge and learning. Dionysus was for my identity as a queer and nonbinary person (although I don't think I had realized I was omnisexual at the time, so it was probably for the latter). It's a question of symbolism, not belief.

[@zephie531]

@@AndyMcFarland-lu9ft because paganism is an umbrella term that covers any non-mainstream religion. It doesn’t require belief in a deity. Also as the original commenter said, a lot of atheistic pagans use gods as symbols, not actual beings. A lot of Satanists for example don’t believe in Satan but use Satan as a symbol of free will, and yes they fall under the pagan umbrella too

[@vexywexypoo]

I hate how America was founded for freedom of religion and to escape persecution yet nearly 300 years later, look where we are. Edit: I'm really doubting my history class rn

[@that_one_MM]

Yeh, because they were even more extreme and zealous than their fellow christians over in Britain. That was actually the reason for the original settlers.

[@valfreyaaurora4922]

funny how European history says they were religious extremists that left for America - wonder whose history is more accurate?

[@glenncalkins4764]

The government tries so hard to not persecute religions that it favors them. Talk about not paying their fair share of taxes!

[@artorhen]

I thought it was founded for the freedom to colonialize the native Americans.

[@vexywexypoo]

@@artorhen to be fair I never said they did it morally

[@Thomas_Schwarzenbacher]

Where I am in Germany it's completely normal to be an Atheist (tho most people probably never even think about this term). Most people around here are technically still Christians, but I know less then a handfull of people who PROBABLY go to church regularly. So when, shortly after Covid started, someone posted on a neighborhood site something like "let me know and I will pray for your health" he got quite the shit storm thrown his way. (I later met with him and tried some of my debunking knowledge I got from channels like this one on him, was a pleasant conversation but I don't think I "won" :=)

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Really excited for this one! You are one of my top influences. Thank you for all the work you do!

[@XenneI]

Hello mindshift!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

@@XenneI Hey there!

[@colinellicott9737]

I have lived over three decades in the US and successfully avoided revealing my hard atheism for most of that time as I know how it is anathema to the ethos of the American ideal. Anyhow, occasionally someone in the group I am chatting with brings up the church they go to, and starts asking everyone in the group what church they go to ... my go to response is "I was raised C of E" and leave it there, however, that does not always work. Some questioners pursue that and need more. At which point I let the cat out of the bag and say "I've only been to church a few times in the last six decades for weddings and funerals". At that point people start stepping away. Then you know who cannot be your friends.

[@amicaaranearum]

If pressed by colleagues or casual acquaintances about my religious views, I usually just say that I approach life from a scientific perspective. It gets the same point across but results in less hostility.

[@debrachambers1304]

What's "C of E"?

[@colinellicott9737]

@@debrachambers1304 Church of England. It's basically Protestant. Thx Henry XIII and all his wives ; )

[@quonit37]

As An Atheist I have been discriminated against for atheism and I feel Ike I can't talk about it bc the public view of Atheism has been sort of taken over by racist white men. A lot of the trauma that I can actually remember from school was kids and teachers being mean to me over atheism. One time I mentioned I didn't believe in god to a kid and he started yelling at me and getting angry at me, and the teacher stepped in and was like "we shouldn't talk about our beliefs (not being on my side)" and I had to get in the car to go home before he stopped yelling at me It was one of the things bullies picked on me for, the stuff they'd talk about was stuff like "she picks her nose" or "she doesn't believe in god" and "she doesn't have a crush" mostly just "she's weird". St.Patricks day was celebrated by the school and everyone could dress out of uniform to wear something green and every year I would wear a red snake shirt instead, and explain to people that St.Patrick is known for "killing all the snakes" and snakes was actually a metaphor for anyone who wasn't christian, including atheists I remember there was this thing called Aftercare where if you got left at school too long they'd put you in a classroom with other kids so a teacher could look over you, and the teacher started reading bible quotes and I told her "I don't believe in god so I'm not participating" and she was really pissy about it but I left anyways I made a big deal at 6 about not doing the pledge of allegiance, specifically the "under god" part and other kids judged me for that and the school board got mad at my mom but my mom defended my legal right to not do it

[@florian8599]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Oh shut up, proselytizer! Threatening hellfire is a surefire way to get atheists to "believe" -- not.

[@darlalathan6143]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Bogus superstition! People are innocent until proven guilty! Your god is a bigoted mythical war criminal, who sent his grown Jewish son into Roman-occupied Palestine to start a persecuted minority religion, then let Roman war criminals torture him to death. Hell or Gehenna is really the Valley of Hinnom, a park in Israel, south of Jerusalem. It has no demons or ghosts in it! Heaven is a mirage called a Fata Morgana, commonly seen over mountains. Lots of mythical deities rise from the dead, such as the South African Heitsi-Eibib, the Egyptian death god Osiris, the Irish Oisin, etc. God is based on 72 Mesopotamian gods, such as Yahweh, El, Adonai, etc.

[@njhoepner]

Another perceptive and well-thought-out video from GMS! I really appreciated this one. In 26 years as an evangelical (and white and male) I remember how desperately we tried to see ourselves as persecuted, to the point of crying "persecution" if someone said "happy holidays" to us instead of "merry christmas" (the so-called "war on christmas" hang-up). The Evangelical world tries to model itself on the "early church," and therefore creates a need to be "persecuted" in order to measure up. Ironically, they don't want any of the conditions that made the early church what it was - being a tiny minority, having little money, and ESPECIALLY having no access to political power - no one wants any of those parts.

[@njhoepner]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 So says the mythology, I'm well aware of it. There's no more reason to believe that particular mythology than to believe any of the thousands of others on offer.

[@njhoepner]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 People have "visions." Members of every religion make the same claim. Members of every religion also make miracle claims. Still not a good reason to choose any particular one over any of the many others. What would make a difference? Something that you see that I would also see if I was standing next to you at the same time. If one of those times you are talking with Jesus, I would hear and see the same person at the same time saying the same things - like happens with real people conversing. If I was standing next to you when you had one of these visions of hell, what would I hear and see? If I would not hear and see the same thing, then it seems to me that it's all in your head. In other words, is there something I can see or hear or touch without having to first believe that it's there?

[@njhoepner]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Right. I know there is a pilot because I've seen planes with pilots, AND because I know how planes work. I've never seen any god doing anything, and neither has anyone else, ever...so at least one instance of evidence IS required before we accept it. Here is the main question though...if I was standing right next to you when you "heard" this "audible voice of God," what would I have heard? When you had this healing, if I had been standing next to you at the time, would I have seen your God there doing the healing? I think we both know the answers.

[@davidallyn1818]

Great video as always. As a high-ranking data dude, I'm always having to remember that poll/survey data doesn't always reflect what we think it does. Often this comes to play in differences in the question terminology. For example, to some "non-belivers", the term "born-again" could simply interpreted as "crazy religious people", so they will answer the survey very differently than a person that knows specifically what it means. The same happens with "working-class". To a billionaire, a mere hundred-thousandaire may be considered "working class", where to a farmer it may mean his hired hands or himself depending on the context. We just always have to remember to take these "... as seen through a glass darkly..." (if you will). Thanks for sharing Dr. Burge's insights!!

[@themightymcb7310]

Surveys really should be specific and define their terms better. If it says "working class" but actually means "poor people" then how am I supposed to know that when my understanding of "working class" is "exchanges labor for pay"? Doctors who don't own their practices are working class. Doctors who do are not.

[@davidallyn1818]

@@themightymcb7310 You're right! I'm often wrestling with my own colleagues on how they should word this question or that. Sometimes when you send it to a group that knows (e.g. a survey about harvesters sent to farmers), you don't have to spell it out. But when you send that survey to polar opposites from each other, then somehow you need to define what terms mean. But also this is a cautionary tale for us people that look at charts in the news or KZbin videos - if someone says "54% of people..." we always have to take it with a grain of salt and not "gospel" (so to speak).

[@joshshultz1250]

Yeah but the same goes for atheists. There's a stigma around the word, even in this comments section. People claiming agnosticism only to explain later that they don't believe in god, which makes them an atheist by definition. If "non-believers" are dancing around the word that much it really says something about how it's interperated.

[@christophervanoster]

My father was not persay an atheist but more open minded about knowledge and finding the truth. My mother was and still is a devout Christian but we’ve grown past that in our relationship. We just don’t talk about it because we’ve both come to terms with it. Before my dad passed I started to question my faith when I was a teenager and when I was in senior year I was being taught things that irrevocably changed my outlook. After actually reading the Bible and questioning my mom about both our faiths multiple time I openly started not believing in it. Granted this was when I was 17-18 but I’m 23 now living on my own for a year now and I haven’t seen anything to change my mind. Nowadays Christians will randomly bring up religion (not my mom/family since my dad is long dead) in conversations so I just try to shut it down but either ignoring it or flat out saying I don’t believe in any religion. I get the worst looks and sometimes get called names like ‘evil’ or ‘vile’. Like dude I don’t believe in a book written by random people in a desert 2000 years ago

[@yoshigottagun]

Awesome discussion. I hadn't encountered Ryan Burge before and when he opened saying he was a baptist pastor, I was expecting something different. Guess I need to reexamine my own biases a bit. Amazing guest!

[@travcollier]

They don't tend to be very "successful" (as in big congregations and/or $), but there are quite a few genuinely thoughtful and good pastors out there.

[@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic]

I highly recommend his books! He’s dispassionate as a social scientist and compassionate as a pastor. He’s not evangelism-focused so much as community-focused, so he cares more about people living happy and healthy lives than believing a specific thing.

[@Cup_of_tea424]

I love love love data like this... super satisfying to have someone actually explain it too!!!

[@leighfoulkes7297]

You can't win with a Christian if you're a nonbeliever but you can do no wrong if you are a believer. They act like I've done them a wrong if I can't believe in them and this is leading me to despise these people.

[@dandromeda1]

I don't despise the ppl, they've been indoctrinated since childhood for the most part. It's still their fault, just not completely. I despise their religion, ignorant beliefs, and their inability to think or consider how dumb they've become because of it. But the ppl themselves are just humans who deep down want the same thing everyone else does, to be safe and happy. They're just lost.

[@juliabriggs1141]

Believers can do wrong as they are still imperfect but rather the opposite is true you cannot win with atheists as they are too obstinate in their unbelief.

[@dandromeda1]

@@juliabriggs1141 Tell me you've never met an atheist without telling me lol. You're either very young and inexperienced, or very dishonest. Either way it's clear that someone has lied to you about atheists.

[@waerlogauk]

I suspect a lot of the none category would say they are spiritual and possibly do believe in God but have rejected all the religions.

[@travcollier]

​@@chrisohalloran9106Have you ever hung out with Unitarians?

[@patrickdallaire5972]

Man, I dream of the day where the bible and other holy books are all moved to the section of the libraries and book stores they deserve to be in: fiction.

[@jorj4270]

I just want them to all have 18+ ratings, and be kept away from kids in all their forms.

[@iwersonsch5131]

"Religion, mythology, and fantasy" could be separate from other fiction like Hamlet and Star Wars

[@popopop984]

Ruthless but valid.

[@purshottamadevadhikar5035]

Wow edgy bro

[@TheberryY]

​@@jorj4270yes

[@sourisvoleur4854]

I was a teacher for a few years before I finally retired and in one of my classes, when we had a free period, one of my students let it be known he was an atheist. (This was a surprise to me, although I always really liked his spunk and independent attitude.) This led to a discussion about religion, and "how can you not believe in God?" and so forth. I was prepared to step in if the other kids got too rough, but my little friend held his own, and faced them all down, and to their credit they did not descend into name-calling or hell-baiting or other ugly behaviors.

[@judeautenebrae5837]

My mother's entire side of the family has no clue I'm an atheist. My parents and my father's side of the family (which is essentially just my grandparents) know, and all of my friends do, but two of my grandparents, my cousins etc. don't. Now that I'm an adult I've wondered if I should tell them, but I'm fairly certain it will be the end of my relationship with most of them. I have a cousin that is now in her mid teens (and thus at the age where many people make incredibly stupid decisions) that I worry about severely, and I want to be there for her if possible; I suspect that coming out as an atheist would affect my ability to do that. So, for now, I simply nod my head and say "yep" without actually offering anything of substance when my relatives discuss religion. It's hard, and it feels like I should feel bad for lying to them, but their almost guaranteed reaction necessitates it.

[@Byroad3]

Dr Burge I was also born in ‘82 columbine happened when we were 17. Just a few years off. I was also beat over the head with “would you say yes?” Nonsense from my church.

[@danielcrafter9349]

The shooters were also evangelicals.... so.....

[@JasonAMauss]

I was born in 80 and when I heard him say 82 and he was 12 I had to go look it up cause I was pretty sure he was way off there. Yeah 5 years off

[@hayvenforpeace]

I remember this, too (we are around the same age; I was in middle school when the shooting happened). I don’t think it was “nonsense” so much as a way for people to try to make sense of their grief and fear. Columbine was the first mass shooting that had a wide social impact, at least for those of us from Generation X (and older Millennials too). Remember, the whole reason religion exists is because humans fear death and nonexistence, as well as the lack of “justice” / fairness in the world. It gives people a way to make sense of small and big tragedies without falling into despair. Atheists do this too, just through other means (drug use, sex, consumerism, politics, excessive work, etc.).

[@triplejudy]

As an outspoken atheist my entire life, I never cared what people thought; I just knew I was right based on the evidence.

[@Max_Doubt]

You're lucky to have slipped the nets.

[@triplejudy]

@@Max_Doubt not lucky, just correct in my analogy … beliefs require data, proofs and evidence for them to exist in realty.

[@JacquesMare]

....or lack thereof...

[@EdithBromfeld]

Yet, you have no evidence that you are correct. You just lied. You will lose badly weighing the evidence. Typical atheist. Liar.

[@EdithBromfeld]

@@triplejudy Where is your proof, evidence and data REQUIRED (according to you) that atheism is correct? Same for your belief that proof is required for something to be real? You sir, are an irrational, dishonest atheist fool.

[@strangementalitypaperYT]

I remember watching Fundie Friday's video about the Duggars in which she calls a guy an atheist. The first time I saw that I thought to myself, "Don't call him an atheist just because he doesn't believe in God." That's when I realized that I'd been conditioned to think of atheism some irreversibly evil, terrible thing, and that's when I finally decided to call myself one.

[@fredphilippi8388]

I am a Christian, but I respect agnostics and atheists. (In fact, I think they "know" God better than most "Christians.") I do not understand those who cannot accept and love those who think differently from Christians. Guess I have never been a missionary. But I understand those of different experiences.

[@theboombody]

First step to being a good missionary is to respect anyone you've been sent to. I don't like a lot of what that Matt Dillahunty guy says, but I think he was in the navy for something like 8 years, and anyone serving our country in the military for that length of time is worthy of some respect. By a similar argument, Jon Lennox definitely deserves respect as a theist. He has a PHD in mathematics, and I guarantee you they don't give those away. I had to stop at the bachelors level in math and switch to accounting at the graduate level. And that isn't easy either.

[@eragon78]

I mean, the bible itself says that atheist are basically the worst kinda people. It is THE unforgivable sin. Thats why so many Christians are so intolerant. The very bible itself tells them to be.

[@FactStorm]

Ah, the nominal Christian who doesn't take his religion seriously. You are so close yet so far..you have no use for the dogma..but don't seem to realize it at least just yet.

[@fredphilippi8388]

@@FactStorm While it is true that I am not a formal member of any particular Christian denomination at this time, having graduated, so to speak, my reference to atheists and agnostics "knowing" God better than most Christians is a reference to a Christian tradition of apophatic theology, i.e., knowing God by knowing what God is not. See the Wikipedia article on "Apophatic Theology." Apophatic theology has a mystical dimension to it.

[@swiggydswirl330]

@@FactStorm Why make such a backhanded, pretentious comment as if people respond well towards those attitudes? You're doing a disservice for what you're attempting to accomplish

[@ruski77]

I grew up in a Christian conservative family. You can imagine how it went when they found out I was atheist, then bisexual, then transgender. Luckily I had learnt my lesson and didn't come out as trans until I was living elsewhere. That would've been a nightmare.

[@نسيتكلمةالمرور-ذ5ب]

I feel sad for your parents I hope my children are not gonna be like you

[@ruski77]

@@نسيتكلمةالمرور-ذ5ب I feel bad for your children. Forcing onto them trashy propaganda. People like you do that shit and wonder “why don’t my children visit me anymore?”

[@RevanReborn3950BBY]

@@نسيتكلمةالمرور-ذ5بyou are not a good person

[@Ysucj743]

@@نسيتكلمةالمرور-ذ5بi feel bad for your hypothetical kids, thank goodness your kids will be forever hypothetical.

[@Pagigan]

​@@نسيتكلمةالمرور-ذ5بI feel bad for anyone you talk to

[@ImmortalLemon]

I like how you can predict people’s behavior the way you can predict animals. If someone knew my psychology well enough they could predict fairly accurately how I will react to something. Or my neighbor, or any random person. And it just gets easier and easier when you’re trying to predict the behavior of groups the more extreme they get in ideals. Same as animals

[@rikk319]

That's because humans are a species of animal.

[@tricksterjoy9740]

Your correct, but there’s also only so far those prediction models can go, and there’s a severe moral dilemma with taking action on said predictions. The biggest issue is human error and bias, the second biggest issue is data collection, how do you collect enough data on an individual to make a truly educated prediction, without severely invading their privacy, for years and years.

[@pierrot-baptistelemee-joli820]

Maybe for the 13% of the atheist that would be displeased if their children married an atheist, they just would be displeased with marriage in general. I know that growing up in an atheist family, my grandmother would often tell me that mariage is not a good concept because you should not get the approval of anybody, neither church nor state, for your love life. She would also often argued that mariage only puts people in very difficult situations that can put a lot of stress on the relationship and on the finances! Edit: I leave in QC, Canada, so the situation is completely different!

[@dawnmoore9122]

I assumed the question implied you were fine with them marrying a person, and the emphasis is on the fiancé's religion. Not everyone might make the same assumption though.

[@celestejones6315]

Thank you so much for sharing this Drew, and I love the data and work he's presented here. As a sociologist, I feel like this really shows the limitations of quantitative (statistical, numbers-based) research methodology. It's useful, but not as flawless as it's often regarded to be in a society like ours that's empirically obsessed with the quantitative approaches (with a history deeply rooted in colonization, particularly), and it doesn't always paint an accurate nor complete picture... I say this in part because we see studies eerily similar to these findings here with LGBTQ groups, POC, and other marginalized groups where respondents or study participants say things like how they "approve of gay/trans people" or have "very positive attitudes toward black people" or "condemn r*pe" and so on, but then more qualitative research studies (in depth recorded and transcribed/data coded interviews, etc.) will paint a completely contradictory picture of experiences, behaviors, and attitudes with those same people who SAY they have such and such opinions on any given scale or questionnaire, but then come to find out it doesn't match their actions and attitudes that can't fit neatly into a multiple choice format. Sometimes more in-depth questionnaires can indicate this pattern of cognitive dissonance that's commonly harbored toward oppressed populations, but it usually takes more qualitative work to dive deeper and get more accurate answers. And don't get me wrong, qualitative data has its own limitations too, as any research does. And ALL researchers can't completely eliminate bias from their work. But it's still extremely underrated and under-utilized. (For instance, we can assume what those few Atheists not wanting their kids to marry other Atheists were maybe thinking, like his assumption that they want to be the only Atheists around or however it was he said it. Or we could assume they made a mistake. But if we were directly communicating with them in qualitative interviews, or through more open-ended questions with essay type answers rather than scales and "yes/no" types of survey items, we could better understand it. Like for example, maybe they're a rare conservative Atheist who assumes most Atheists are liberal and would prioritize that over their religious identity, but that entire piece is missing and we'll never know for sure if it stops there. That's just one example, but the possibilities are endless. I'm curious to see if he does go into qualitative measures with those kinds of methods in the future, whenever he does more thorough "teasing out" of those issues like he mentioned. I'm excited to see more on this from him!) A perfect example, backtracking a little though to what I was saying, like how he mentioned that a good sized portion of Americans seem to have a very "live and let live, so long as they don't force it on me" (I'm paraphrasing, around 20:37) attitude toward atheism and religion of others, in general. But the same could be said about most people's attitude *on paper* that they'll purport having toward LGBTQ+ people. But then when you dig deeper, you do see the ways these negative biases and prejudices they're denying actually affect the LGBTQ+ individuals in their lives more directly. And for any of us who are LGBTQ+, myself included, we know good and well that even though this attitude *sounds* appropriate, like that same mindset verbatim that he described, it's still a more passive and covert way of asserting that we're still actually "wrong" existing the way we do in their eyes, they still don't accept it deep down but try to hide it, and they still want to downplay or erase our experiences because they don't want it "forced on them" (when it's nowhere near the level of hegemony we experience with heteronormativity/cissexism being forced on us on the daily, lol). These are the same people many of us had as parents who, again if explored through qualitative methods, would likely say on a survey they feel this nonchalant way but then still react poorly when we come out - saying it's fine from a distance and that they're okay with it in general, but who can still kick out their own children for coming out, or refuse to attend their wedding, and so on. I'd say the same is very similar to Atheism/nones in this case, too, per the thousands of comments I've read over more than a decade of being in Atheist circles online, and also hearing people say this before cutting off contact with their loved ones at a later point, disowning the very people they claimed to have tolerated in past conversations, solely because they came out as nonbelievers. (Fun personal fact, this was the attitude my dad had toward both LGBTQ+ people and non-Christians my whole life, and then I ended up coming out as both of those to him in the same conversation, lol. I came out as LGBTQ+ first, but he took the Atheism part MUCH harder, which blindsided me. But I've spoken with hundreds of others who have described similar experiences, and I'm sure so many people in the comments here even would be able to relate...) This is just one of many examples I could give. But I think it's worth noting too, particularly regarding the point made around 26:09 just to add, that unlike other marginalized identities, unless you're displaying through your apparel or otherwise that you're an Atheist in a very outright manner or yelling about it loudly enough for others in your proximity to hear you, no one's going to necessarily know, obviously. Therefore, you're not nearly as likely to be targeted for being an Atheist in public or even as regularly as you might be as a marginalized person for many other aspects of identity, per se, because you don't have it inscribed on your body. So the marginalization of Atheists is going to be much more intimately experienced rather than experiencing it as more of a "walking target". For example, if you have dark skin and you're in a store, you're more likely than white people to be followed around by staff suspicious of you potentially engaging in criminal activity, on the basis of their racial biases. This is a known, well-researched fact. But if you're an Atheist, it's not like strangers will be aware of this fact enough to approach you for the sake of condemning you to hell, lol. However, if it's outed somehow, you're more likely than Christians to experience the ways that a significant portion of Americans (though it's difficult to say how many, but likely a majority, more than what's likely self-reported in this research I would go as far as to assume honestly, just as it is with any other numerical majority who has negative implicit biases toward marginalized groups) *really* feel negatively toward Atheists. Whether that means being essentially disowned by loved ones, fired, harassed, etc. Also, side note, for anyone who's seen Leah Remini's docuseries and all the graphic horrible stuff that the Church of Scientology has gotten away with, with almost no accountability in proportion to their actions (surveillance, threats, forced abortions, and more really dark stuff I can't say here per the guidelines), I really don't think it's so surprising that so many people feel so negatively toward them, lol. I'm much more surprised when someone just doesn't care at this point, honestly. 😂 Again, thank you so much for the work you do, Drew. You always give off the best vibes of empathy, compassion, and... Honestly, I'd just say "tranquility", too, lol. You help so many people in so many ways that are just really admirable, and you're so deeply appreciated beyond words for so many of us.

[@ethanlewis1453]

RIP to the 5,600 Christians who were murdered in 2021 for simply being Christian according to an Open Doors USA study of Christian persecution.

[@celestejones6315]

@@ethanlewis1453 I would definitely agree that that's tragic, but religious oppression is relative to each society in what religious ideologies are privileged or oppressed, and Open Door tends to ignore the bigger picture because they deliberately want to frame these issues as the world being against Christianity. For example, Hinduism may be the dominant and privileged majority religion in one society but a suppressed and persecuted minority in another. That's why in some societies there's extremely high levels of Islamophobia but other societies where Islam is the dominant faith, other religions would be oppressed and you wouldn't see Islamophobia in those societies as a prevailing narrative. And it's also why there's varying forms of religious nationalism that are relative to each nation and the cultural and sociohistorical context around why that religion is dominant/privileged (e.g. Christian nationalism here in the U.S., for example, and Christians aren't systemically persecuted here because that's like saying white people are oppressed within a nation plagued by white supremacy - the Open Doors map even shows the nations where Christians are "persecuted", and America isn't one of them, but they only focus on Christianity, too, not a cross-cultural analysis of religious oppression in different historical contexts). It's also worth mentioning, a lot of places accused of "persecuting Christians" are countries that have been on the receiving end of U.S. imperialism, and Christian evangelizing, whitewashing, indoctrination, cultural erasure, etc. on the part of colonizers who have used Christianity as a tool of imperialist domination, genocide, etc. But whenever those countries say "No more - we're taking our culture and our sovereignty back, enough is enough, get out!" then American Christians can be quick to play the martyr and say, "Omg, look! They're persecuting us!! How dare they! We're just good-hearted colonizers killing in the name of God!" And not just Christians do this - the same could be said for literally every major religion, like with Buddhist nationalism, Hindu nationalism, Zionism, etc. throughout history, and in many places it's been seeing a surge in recent years. I hate for anyone to be killed for something they believe in. And not that I *want* to make this comparison or downplay their loved ones' losses, but 5,600 also pails in comparison to the number of innocent people killed who belong to other faiths, and it seems selfish to me that an entire organization would strive so hard with all the work they do to make it seem like they're the world's biggest target... The U.S. alone had in recent years killed more than 435,000 Muslims within a 30 year span, averaging out to about three times as many as the 5,600 per year, but that's JUST Muslims killed by the U.S., not the entire world either. Look at the dozens of shootings, bomb threats, etc. that have been on the primary basis of targeting Jewish synagogues and other gathering places in America in the last several years alone. Most mass shooters and most prisoners who are incarcerated for violent crimes are Christian, and victims of faith-based hate crimes in America are never Christian. And these are just in the U.S., but the number of non-Christian religious minorities targeted and killed each year around the world is exponentially higher... And don't get me wrong, because again, all of this is horrific and shouldn't happen at all and can't possibly be justified. But most Christians being "persecuted" in the world today are finally seeing pushback against the violence that Christianity has inflicted on other nations who are fighting for justice in the name of decolonization. Most of the world's deaths caused by Christianity, on the other hand, is in the name of obtaining power and dominating other countries and exploiting entire populations and violently confiscating the resources of other nations. I know Open Doors and organizations like them seem to always want to play the victim in the same way that cops like to shout "blue lives matter" in response to them killing POC, but if they really cared about religious persecution they'd be willing to not just focus on Christians and understand that ideological tyranny and violent religious nationalism of any kind is an atrocity, as well as acknowledge the harms of all forms of religious nationalism with Christian nationalism and terrorism both domestically and abroad realized, too.

[@angelikaskoroszyn8495]

Tl;dr Someone might be ok with trans people existing but providing them with health care (or God forbid providing children with it) - that's a completly different question

[@g.d.graham2446]

Awesome analysis, ngl

[@celestejones6315]

@@angelikaskoroszyn8495 Lol, thanks. I meant to put in a TLDR note before getting distracted: It's common for people to say they feel one way explicitly, but to implicitly or otherwise demonstrate the complete opposite.

[@timandmonica]

I was watching Dale Martin in an interview talking about church history and how there was a real problem in the early church with people trying to get themselves martyred. They finally figured out that it was probably best to try to not get yourself killed. I like Ryan. He did a good job with this.

[@m4641]

Can you point me to the Dale Martin interview? I'd like to listen to it.

[@timandmonica]

@@m4641 I've seen a bunch by him but I think it might be this one kzbin.info/www/bejne/fYrVhn2kp9GoqZI

[@standuser9696]

I've been an out atheist since i was 14. My "goal" is to normalize atheism in any small way I can. However, I started a new job about 1 year ago and I have gone out of my way to hide my non belief. Prior to starting, I made a new Facebook account that didn't blatantly display my atheism like my original one did. I didn't want my new coworkers to know right away and begin making judgements about me. Whenever religious discussions start in the work placrle (it does A LOT ALL THE TIME) I leave the room to make sure I'm not included. Every single person I work with is so religious and I've dealt with coworkers in the past judging me and just overall making the working environment hostile. I feel like I'm doing a disservice to my community by behaving in this way but damn I don't want any unnecessary drama or judgment. I've dealt with it all throughout my professional life, I've gotten tattoos removed to limit the questions/discussions about my beliefs/lack thereof and it sucks that I'm compromising my convictions to just have a normal work life. My coworkers can literally pray for each other at their desk and I have to go hide to keep the peace lol I hate Texas.

[@amicaaranearum]

At work, it’s generally best to avoid the topics of politics, religion, and sex - _especially_ if your views are unpopular or unusual. If pressed about my religious views, I usually just say that I approach life from a scientific perspective. It results in less hostility than the A-word.

[@eeg-rh7jv]

Ignore the people judging you, if they hate you for not believing a fictional character they don't deserve your respect

[@ianbuick8946]

My advice: Don't let yourself to be deceived. Claim you're an atheist and stand strong to defend it. Guess who is the Father of Lie?

[@jas1049]

In Europe, my experience would be that people are generally fine with people being religious (of any faith) provided that they keep it more or less exclusively to themselves. As soon as it becomes at all apparent that you are religious, however, people tend to raise an eyebrow and not engage. And if you are very open about being religious, particularly outside of a religious context (I.e. beyond going to church etc) you are more or less viewed with some disdain. We would view religion in the U.S. as being the feature of your society that is the most alien to us, along with your attitude to guns. I have often heard people in Europe express that view that the protestant churches in the U.S. are the result of all the most radical protestant religious groups and sects in European society having been driven out of Europe in the 17th and 18th centuries because they were viewed as being unacceptably radical in one aspect or another.

[@Steve-Cross]

I live in the UK. Like most northern European countries, we are fairly secular across-the-board. Atheism certainly isn’t frowned upon. Yet we have the same evidence, or rather lack off, for any God, as the USA and decided to reject it ,on the whole. I really do not understand, why the USA is so hung up on the ill-founded proposition of a God, in this day and age. I know it is big business and that is probably what is driving it. We don’t have mega churches, or pastors flying around in private jets. Perhaps the poor religious people in the USA, need to take a long hard look at themselves and stop perpetuating, this massive scam. No matter what the scam merchants tell you. You can’t buy a place in heaven, even if one existed. Just be a good person. 😊

[@Steve-Cross]

@@Едентийф That is the problem in the USA. The good men are afraid to put their heads above the parapet. Some religious nutcase, is bound to shoot it off. 😢

[@DrgnZip]

I think it started when you Europeans kicked out all the religious nutjobs and sent them to the new world.

[@rikk319]

Remember who it was that came from Europe to America to found colonies--religious zealots and gold-hungering sociopathic libertarians. They built a society based on those two ideals: faith and greed. It's true that, much of the time, personal liberties were thrown in, but the hypocrisy of applying those liberties unequally has failed to fix the problems in this nation with the basic ideas of faith and greed.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

The concept of a non-evil monotheistic God was thoroughly debunked hundreds of years before christianity became a thing. It didn't stop them from convincing the ignorant masses to believe. And once they had their trust, they teach them to ignore criticism, ignore reality, ignore evidence. That believing in spite of overwhelming and incontrovertible evidence was a sign of superiority, not idiocy.

[@zacharywheat6371]

The fact that Republicans ranked _the military_ higher than working class people had me rolling

[@Amsterdampardoc1]

@@solosolo8610it not about military wages it’s about overall spending in military

[@kyliejones8827]

Great discussion!👍Thank you. It took me FAR too long to realise you were both talking about "nones" and not "nuns." I was listening to the video, not watching and was very confused for a while. 😂 Cheers from Australia 🇦🇺

[@TenTonNuke]

Way back in like junior high, a girl was doing some survey thing for some class (the memory is hazy if you couldn't tell). She asked me what my religion was. It was the first time I had been asked to definitively state my religious beliefs. I said I didn't believe in any gods. This was so unheard of that she didn't even have an "atheist" or "no religion" option on her paper. She was confused and said she was just going to put me down as Christian. I remember feeling like something was wrong with me.

[@labranehit7687]

That would have ticked me off. Can't she add a "not religiously affiliated" column?

[@scipioafricanus5871]

@@labranehit7687 "Survey says no"

[@cutienerdgirl]

​@@labranehit7687 Like...she could've literally wrote down on the paper "1 Atheist" 😂

[@labranehit7687]

@@cutienerdgirl yes!!!! XD