How Much Faster are Modern Bikes?

Speed Test Results: docs.google.co...
Wheels Used for Project: creativecycles...
SL6 Rim Brake Available: www.alchemycyc...
In this video I am comparing a 2013 Rim brake BMC to a 2023 Disc brake BMC. Both bikes come with Shimano Dura Ace, although one is mechanical and the other electronic. I have also used the same wheel (Creatice Classics) ad tyres and tubes for this project. The tests I have completed are all relating to speed and not braking performance.
#roadcycling

[@CamNicholls]

Apologies for some autofocus issues with the camera. Not sure what happened there. Maybe Sony just dropped $20K on a disc brake bike - LOL. Also, SilverFox project is next week. Stay tuned. Exciting results there too. Cam

[@chrisgibsongolf1107]

Cam how did the bike feel on Saturday ride?

[@two-eyedRoy]

Mister Camshaft sir, I has a thinks of possible cause for noticeable discrepancy... 11 and 12 speeds. If both horses have same sized cranks and are (saaay) 11-28 cassettes there is the chance to be in a tooth or two inequality during tests 1 and 2. So whilst power might have been held was cadence? [was cadence recorded too, that should show up]

[@MotoWot]

Mate, I appreciate your efforts but there are too many variables with your bikes and testing methodology. The aero differences between rim profiles could have a greater effect than the brakes, so build a combo wheelset with center lock disc hubs and brake rims. Add or remove the brake rotors when swapping wheels between bikes. Replicate riding position and biomechanics on both bikes (same crank length). Do identical chain prep on both bikes. Eliminate test surface variability by doing all testing on a velodrome, preferably indoors. Differences in aero drag will be greater at higher speeds, so test at higher speeds. Instead of measuring average speed, create a scatter plot of velocity vs watts. If there is a difference between the bikes and you have enough data points, you will see a trend. Don't try to quantify gains from lower weight or rotational inertia with a 2 bike test, that is better done by adding weight to a single bike.

[@JonReid]

Love that Durianrider made a guest appearance.

[@DP-PhD]

haha not a perfect cameo, still had a jersey on!

[@benhaywood2510]

LOLZ 😂

[@BarrioBarranco1]

Should have had the naff "govegan" vest in shiite brown and lime green

[@SamuelBlackMetalRider]

Was gonna post the same hahaha

[@Bob_cherry]

Doesn’t Durianrider own a SL6 and a SL8?!? 🧐

[@garyj6670]

Cam, I have an Sworks SL6 rim (54) and a Specialized SL7 (54) and live local (Brisbane). You could grab that SL8 (54) on Alchemycycletrader and do a 3 way. Now who wouldn’t want a 3 way 😳……., and the cogs start turning.

[@darshenjason3164]

Thumbs up

[@Southerncyclist]

Can't beat that Offer

[@simonwarmer8777]

Same here, got a sw sl6 rim and a sw sl7 on enve’s 5.6/4.5 2022 The sl6 is more fun and the sl7 faster imo.

[@CamNicholls]

Extremely kind offer Gary, so thank you. However, I’m simply not comfortable with taking someone else’s equipment, changing things around to fit me properly and then riding it. There’s always risk of damage and things not being put back the way they came…I don’t want to be responsible for that nor put that risk on anyone. I am very grateful for your offer though. Appreciate it.

[@durianriders]

@@CamNichollsI’ve got an SL8 sworks tarmac that’s gathering dust now I don’t even use it for a shopping bike.

[@callumrich91]

crazy that durian rider came up to a sunny coast crit track to yap on about his golden years.

[@cannon1156]

He had no golden years .. he was aty best a C grade rider in Adelaide apparently

[@mettflow2648]

golden years?

[@durianriders]

@@cannon1156A grade. Did a few NRS races. Still have second place on the hardest sub10 min KOM in SA. Your turn😂

[@cannon1156]

​@@durianriders maybe when you were using the drugs

[@cannon1156]

@@mettflow2648 golden drug use?

[@parmijo]

This was a lot of work and variables controlled as much as possible. I don't see anyone else doing this at this level.

[@keith_cottongim]

I have both rim and disc road bikes. I go back-and-forth with riding them. Being a 55 year-old cyclist with where I ride and how I ride I don’t need the power of disc brakes. I do like the simplicity of rim brakes, but I’ve never had an issue with hydraulic disc. I do like the advantage of the disc for running wider tires. If manufactures made rim brake frames to accept wider tires that would negate one of the advantages of disc.

[@petersouthernboy6327]

Well, it might also require the caliper manufacturer to make wider brake calipers

[@richeeg3271]

​@@petersouthernboy6327I don't see how that could be a difficult task though. There are so many weird caliper designs, from ultra lightweight to aero TT specific. Surely designing them with wider tyres in mind can't be such a headache

[@petersouthernboy6327]

@@richeeg3271 it would take a niche aftermarket manufacturer like Cane Creek to do it. No OEM is going to make that investment for quite practical business reasons.

[@hutchy_4297]

well my dura ace 9100 brakes fit 30mm no problem, how big do you want your road tires?

[@Jalfred92]

My ultegras (whatever the last cable ones were) are taking tyres measuring 30mm too. 28s on wide modern rims and 32s on narrow rims (both come to 30mm). I think the wider rim could go up a size too because of how it shapes the tyre.

[@durianriders]

Come to Adelaide and you can use my SL8 sworks tarmac. It’s just gathering dust at the moment. I prefer my SL2 by far. Lighter, stiffer, stronger, quicker, better to service and fit. SL8 sworks tarmac is the best bike in disc land but still about 15 seconds slower up Norton summit than a $700 sl2 off facebook. Same watts.

[@franzkohlack8336]

Make it happen Cam! Make it the most epic vid of 2024 get and maybe together with Jesse and Chris haha

[@kubackjeee]

​@@franzkohlack8336 Jessica and Christina are 2 drama queens. We don't want them

[@devdroid9606]

How can SL8 be the best disk brake bike? You said it was floppy junk with an unreliable steerer tube design.

[@Danilo-uc8lz]

@@devdroid9606facts!!!! @durianriders

[@tonictones]

@@devdroid9606 of all the other disk brake junk bikes, he meant that's the best one out of them

[@MM-kt5dv]

The results don't surprise me in the slightest. Thanks for doing the hard work Cam!

[@ChinaCycling]

You should drop some money on upgrades to the rim brake one and get it even faster. ;) Still cost less than the disc brake one too.

[@DP-PhD]

True perhaps. However, until the mystic rim brake speed-sauce is disc-overed, it isn't broken so why try and fix it ;)

[@lucasherculano5563]

That’s interesting. Since there is probably more room to improve the rim brake than the disc brake one.

[@dominicbritt]

I know someone with that 2013 BMC rim brake bike and it is a genuinely fast frame - I don’t think that current BMCs perform as well these days… ideally your best comparison would be same model rim/disc. Brave to go there Cam 😂

[@begeistrat]

Agreed, I'd love to see a SL6 disc vs SL6 rim brake comparison for this reason! Really comparing apples to apples :) you wouldn't have the aspect of different geometry etc...

[@steveaguay]

It makes sense that rim brakes are slightly more aero. But one of the advantages of disc is ability to fit wider tires, be able to run them at lower pressures and be more comfortable which makes bumps take less wear and allow you to go faster longer. Either way I think it doesn't matter that much ride whatever you prefer. Better nutrition and training will out do any of these small gains anyway.

[@RevoltingRudi]

"more comfortable" is widely used in ads and a term you can´t measure because everyone has his own feelings. i have ridden on the same bike with stiff alloy frame, on the same roads from 37mm schwalbe marathon/marathon racer, 35mm Kojaks, 35mm Conti Grand Prix Urban, 35mm Challenge Strada Bianca. 32mm Conti Speed, 28mm Conti 4k, 25mm Pirelli P Zero and 23mm Michelin Power Cup Competition. all with a wide range of pressure. at the end the 23-28mm was fastest very consistent. and the bike was always at the lightest that way. how much more comfy was the 35mm ones? a bit more but not world changing. running them high on pressure, but still withing range, all of them are quite hard. the best in comfort was the Strada Bianca. very plush feeling. if time and performance doesnt matter that much, 32-35mm is a nice size i highly recommend.

[@phqnomenon]

this is mainly due to new bikes being made with more tire clearance. and since only few new frames are rim, quite a few older frames have less tire clearance. 28mm rims are officially supported by all recent rim brakes and some people have found brakes that can take even 30mm wide rims.

[@benverschaeren6467]

You should check out a 2022 Giant TCR KOM (RIM) vs a 2022 Giant TCR Advanced(Disc). That way you're testing the same generation of bike. They're the same geometry and identical frames the disc version even has the rim brake bridge. You could then do a circuit that involves climbs, descents and flats to see what bike is faster with the same avgs watts. Interesting results all the same. Nice video.

[@francescosaturnino113]

I think peak torque did that (not 2022 model, but both were the same model). He found no significant difference between the bikes.

[@albr4]

@@francescosaturnino113 but there were some differences in rider position, he said the bars were slightly narrower on the disc which for a rider his size would easily acount for a few seconds difference. Cam's testing also seems a lot more thorough by using different courses. PT just went back and forth on the same section of flat road which effectively removes the extra weight of the discs from the equation. I'm sure if Cam tested those 2 frames with the same bar width it would be a similar result to the BMCs.

[@AllanPhillips]

Thanks for doing such a thorough comparison and for trying so hard to make it a fair one.

[@ArnageLM]

That old school BMC is just a classy bike. Side profile is 🤤

[@U.s.e.r.3493]

BMC head office: "have to shut this down asap. Bad for sales"

[@testalino]

I think they don't care even more. They don't sell anything anyways.

[@fredEVOIX]

@@testalino mtber here XC with a BMC team outfit (road cycling) and SPD clip pedals like many other brands too expensive for what they are, for 10'500$ >< they sell a bike that even for 5000$ I wouldn't buy spec/components wise this is why all those big bike brands have giant stocks of unsold bikes in 2024 they downgraded components one at a time year over year and reached a point where it's too obvious and people go elsewhere

[@williamko4751]

All serious cyclists know rim bike 10 years ago is better than the disc bike today

[@mrvwbug4423]

To be fair he was setting up the 2023 bike very sub-optimally. 26c clinchers don't go on a modern aero frame, 28c or 30c tubeless (or tubulars if you're super bougie) or bust

[@albr4]

@@mrvwbug4423 30c will always be slower than 26c, it doesn't matter if they're optimally setup, wider is always less aerodynamic. For every +2mm of tyre width you add, you lose about 2w in aero drag, and you usually gain less than 0.5w of rolling resistance savings. So theoretically you go from 26c to 30c you'll lose 3w at best and that's not taking into account the loss from the extra weight of the bigger tyres too. Also that 2013 bike isn't setup anywhere near it's potential, there's tons of improvements you could make whereas that 2023 bike is maxed out other than minor tyre changes.

[@damage113]

Great follow up video, thanks for sticking with it!

[@radut18]

Cam The greatest. Waiting for The s-works tests 👍👍

[@musclelessfitness2045]

Finally ! I've been waiting for this video for a long time. Thank you !! Good impression of DurianRider, but you forgot to say to carb the F up 🤣

[@niels3591]

This is really interesting. Also as I am thinking about building a rim brake "old school" bike . The margins in your test is very small and for me the conclusion is that the old bike actually can keep up with the modern very expensive bike . Thanks for the good work

[@durianriders]

Can’t deny rim is best for road performance 💯❤️ Great vid C💯💯

[@franzkohlack8336]

🎉

[@Pablo_Coach]

No, no rim are worse. You must using more power in hand to braking, and with carbon rims they are many many problem with rim brakes. Disc brakes are ahead of any rim brakes, and are very ease to mainetance.

[@christiankeim]

​Don't argue with durian. He's a full blown troll who is in a sketchy relationship with an internet whore, not gonna win that argument mate. ​@@Pablo_Coach

[@franzkohlack8336]

@@Pablo_Coach You would need a good carbon rim wheel set like the Winspace Hypers to adjust for your describes problems. Go to Reginald Scotts channel and watch his 30min deepdive on why rimbrakes are better. Any Durianrider Video on that will also do. If you think that disc brakes are better to maintain you are just delusional my friend... Sorry to brake (pun intended) to you.

[@Pablo_Coach]

@@franzkohlack8336 BS. Any Carbon rims are delaminated with that high temperatures on descends, and need More power on levers (with disc brakes I use one finger only)

[@SecwetGwiwer]

Colnago and Time both do disc and rim brake versions of the same frame. Test them.

[@krider7296]

This is a great idea, but these frames are even more expensive than the Specialized ones.

[@SecwetGwiwer]

@@krider7296 The Colnagos maybe, not the Time.

[@CycoWarriorx]

Those parking lot convo’s with “certain” other cyclists must be universal…. 🤣🤣🤣🙌🏽🍻

[@Billcasiopost]

Thanks Cam, appreciate the HOURS you put in to this video.

[@hamishosborne8740]

Can confirm Michael at Creative is a legend. His wheels are excellent!

[@thebreakdownwithWB]

love these bike test and taking them pretty serious instead of just a afternoon stroll type of test... always pretty interesting.

[@johncoates6039]

Do it! The tarmac sl6 seams to be the most coveted rim bike frame ever made.

[@Shadowboost]

I had the opportunity to grab a SL6 Ultralight, but I already own the other most coveted rim brake frame, the Supersix Evo Black. One day I'll grab one

[@amankarwa1305]

Loved this type of content....need more of it!

[@johncoates6039]

The tarmac SL6 rim brake review was the very first video I ever watched from cam.

[@mariovr8416]

I would like to see the old Cannondale Supersix evo rim vs modern Cannondale. They were quick.

[@asiantrick24]

i would assume the modern Evo is quicker on the flat due to its aero shape while the older one is quicker on the hill due to its weight.

[@heinik4349]

And Caad 10

[@Shadowboost]

I have two CAAD10 and 3 Supersix Evos, all rim brake. The latest Evo would be faster, just because of aero and big tires. Still love my Cannondales though

[@heinik4349]

@@Shadowboost how much faster than Caad?? Biggers tires arent faster, just more comfort.

[@Shadowboost]

@@heinik4349 bigger tires are faster. On the rough roads that are more and more commonplace, they roll faster. Current Evo is 15 Watts faster at 40 kph. I'm faster on my old Evo than my CAAD10 on any acceleration or climb. That said, there's a 4 pound difference between my bikes, same size and fit

[@Thecuxspm]

OMG! A 2013 teammachine with dura ace mechanical. My Literal Dream Bike

[@shaunhoulahan4080]

Thanks for doing this Cam. I think the work you did ahead of the test making the equipment as close to identical as possible made a big difference. I was expecting the modern bike to be faster so to see this is significant. I think if you compare a rim brake SL6 with a disc brake SL8 the result will be similar.

[@casualguy393]

Excellent video! The amount of attention to detail for this test is amazing. I often do my own little comparisons between my rim brake road bike and my recumbent but not nearly as in depth as this.

[@daviddjerassi]

No stone left unturned i enjoyed it a bit of an eye opener cam thanks food for thought.

[@TGShunai]

You could also look into Canyon Aeroads, they haven't changed as much over the past 4 years, and you can easily find rim brake vs disc brake versions.

[@sail5820]

Very brave to post this Thanks mate!

[@floriansiedenburg2368]

As an average rider and way below average descender, I think the biggest benefit of disc breaks is the confidence they give me on long, steep descends. I therefore think that disc bikes will win in technical descends. I can go much faster and break later to make it round the next hairpin. However, the associated disadvantage is the potential lock-up if this is taken over the edge.

[@22seb22]

Rim for the win. I sold my disc brake road bike because it was heavy and would rub. Got a Sworks SL5 rim brake and love it

[@kpsig]

SRAM or Shimano disk brakes?

[@falconbike_onfire]

I did the same recently. Changed my “modern” disk brakes di2 bike by one S-Works SL6 Di2 Rim brakes. From the change, a new Personal Record in strava every day! In climbs and also in downhills. Why ? I don’t know, both bikes are very similar in groupset, wheels, etc

[@kpsig]

@@falconbike_onfire What model/brand/groupset was your disk brake bike?

[@falconbike_onfire]

@@kpsig Shimano Dura Ace in both bikes.

[@22seb22]

@@kpsig it was shimano

[@Oilyhands749]

Perfect balance of humour and nerdy facts Really enjoyed this and hopefully get to see “another brand”

[@BennyHubba]

Yeah would love to see the specialized comparison. Great video!

[@JamieVeinotte]

Thanks for doing this comparison video. Hope to see another in the future

[@EdsterTube]

Great content Cam. If only you had the rim brake bike with you on that epic ride with Mitch in France.

[@SkylarsRnD]

Thanks for doing these tests AND throwing away the litter!

[@johntripodi4048]

Great vid. Appreciate all the testing between rim & disc. Lots of lol’s as well. Keep it going!

[@ryjayhar20]

Keep going with these projects until you get results that help me feel better about all the money I spend on newer bikes😀

[@sampetty5768]

Fantastically well presented video. Just about as thorough as you can be with 1 person.

[@d9dga]

Top work, Cam. You should hit up your mates in Sydney, they're always chatting about their TCRs

[@melbournecyclingsegments7510]

Geez you're a funny bastard. I've shared the video with my mates titled it "no I'm still going to ride the ten year old weapon"

[@randomname8442]

There’s an SL6 rim bike size 54 for you here in Singapore and more SL8s per capita then anywhere else in the world. Pop over.

[@randomname8442]

Or just ask Durian…

[@Moto_Plus]

I could have told you all this... Rim Brake = "Faster" because its lighter Disc Brake = more "Reliable" braking, your wheel lasts longer Love seeing your videos Cam

[@benm468]

Ridden for decades and never had 'reliability' issues with rim brakes or worn out a wheel. These are urban myths

[@Moto_Plus]

@@benm468 just meant you get more consistent braking when going downhill and you aren't eating up the brake track on the rim. And by consistent braking I mean where you don't get the wheel brake track squeaks when it's glazed over.

[@rquinones27]

I love this kind of content. Well done! 👏🏼👏🏼

[@Lio2coolPlays]

The bike industry and the people who support it, deserve more of this independant research. I would love to see a pro use a rim brake bike for certain stages in the tour in 2025, purely because theres no argument against it being faster.

[@Pesto581]

Thanks for doing the hard work Cam! You are are real bike nerd. Love it!

[@Jerzj]

First of all huge thanks for your effort and time! Really interesting results.

[@richardhyde5091]

Great to see a review of the Rim v Disc bikes that makes a good attempt at isolating the difference between both bike types… (unlike others in Australia whose findings pushed disc brake gains using completely different bikes types). Apart from the performance gain with rim brakes and weight advantage shown in the video, the rim brake bikes are much easier to live on a day to day basis with due to the ease of required maintenance of rim brakes and much lower cost life cycle costs … which makes them a clear winner for me …. Especially on road bikes and given 99% of my rides are in dry conditions

[@casualguy393]

Yep. When riding in a group that small difference isn't going to matter since almost everyone is drafting anyway. And if it is raining, where disc brakes seem to have a slight advantage you aren't going to be riding like an absolute madman anyway.

[@FringeWizard2]

99% of rides dry? Where do you live? Near 90% of my rides are in rain.

[@jswisher893]

respect the hustle, my man trying to get an SL8 out of this👏👏

[@whynotride327]

Last month I asked a friend of mine, who has ridden for a couple of world tour teams and is still racing in Europe on a pro team, what was his favorite bike and his least favorite bike of all the bikes he has ridden. Here is what he replied; "I think my favorite bike so far was the Giant TCR. It was light and handled really well, I could immediately descend better on it. And it’s less expensive than a lot of other high end bikes. I always thought the BMC road bike drove like a boat. Even after 4 years I never felt great on it. But their TT bike was the best " BTW, who in the world changes wheels by turning their bike upside down like that??

[@yonglingng5640]

But it's the TCR Advanced SL he raced on, no?

[@seansims8805]

Saw this bike at a lbs on Wed and I'm gonna test ride it hopefully today . 2022 disc. Black n white it's calling me ....

[@stijnw5336]

Best video i've ever watched, woawh. If i'd have a big company, i would sponsor this guy immediately!

[@Baggellyh]

Keep this up Cam, its very good public interest citizen science.

[@bigfoot6449]

A very nice test. Would love to see more of those with other brands.

[@benhaywood2510]

Great video, Cam. Balanced, transparent and honest. And as a bonus, rim brakes came out on top and we had an interlude from everyone’s favourite vegan.

[@FringeWizard2]

My favorite vegan is the Austrian artist who made Germany great for a time before the bolsheviks ruined everything.

[@seansims8805]

Cam , mate , brother , I just was at my lbs and they have that teamachine same paint , 54 with 105 hardly rode . 2k USA$ here in Seattle and i nearly bought it on sight . I ride a 2014 izalco pro 10spd ultegra , few wheels , sl45s 28mm conti or 26mm pirelli, nothing new but it's great as I'm 55 . I do want more speed and this helped

[@1carusjohn32]

I've had a custom steel rim brake frame built using 1'1/8 tubes except for the rear stays. I had been riding a SL6 Domane (2017) Disk bike and although a great all day ride I was always concerned with the tube diameters, the down tube in particular. The down tube here is getting on to be nearly three times the width of the steel tube, so any claimed aero profiling of the Trek tube would have to be nearly 3 times better than a cylindrical shape. It is actually wider than it is long... so that doesn't seem to stack up either. The steel bike rear brake cable pops in and out of the top tube and I went sram axs on the build so I did not have to run any other cables, so it is fairly clean from a cable perspective. Basically a classic looking steel frame with modern parts. It is an absolute weapon compared to the TREK. It is probably an unfair comparison, but I have certainly noticed that most of the tour bikes have much skinnier tube sets/frame than what they were riding say 5 years ago. A think like for like, rim brake frames will probably be more aero and lighter than disc brake. In a dry climate it would be hard to justify Discs, but like me, when it is wet and cold with grimy roads --- I still take the Trek--- with full mudguards!

[@Lwmuth]

Good on ya old mate, keep it going

[@b.smitty5273]

Thanks for the confirmation that I don't need to get a new bike any time soon, still love my 2018 rim brake trek emonda. I'll stay away from wallet weight savings a little longer

[@bartolovelo8976]

Same here😊 I will stay with my Emonda for longer 🎉

[@damonvanopdorp2905]

Fascinating. I speculate that the stated measurements of the two bikes might be different than the actual measurements, but you'll need some fancy jig to figure that out.

[@toriwangjanim4886]

You just made my day. Great to see! Thanks.

[@Lio2coolPlays]

Hey Cam, I have been VERY tempted make a video and put my Sworks SL6 rim up against a SL8, because I thoroughly believe my SL6 was the fastest bike Specialized made, possibly the fastest climbing bike ever made. Its basically an SL8 but lighter and more aero due to the lack of rotors.

[@josh33172]

Its all well and good until you're riding in the wet and raining weather of Northern EU. Sure if you're in Denmark or NL where it's flat (Limburg is an exception). But we all know that this environment is pretty much the fairest of weather...and doesn't represent everywhere else. Also long term, if you aren't somewhere flat and dry..enjoy replacing your wheels after you wear through the carbon rim. But it is a good fair test, I admit that, but sometimes the controls aren't really controls because in the real world, controls go out the window.

[@sapiens7821]

Hey Everyone let’s start a petition 😉 Can Durian Rider make a cameo on his SL8. Durian versus Cam on the SL6 🙏on the crit track and a climb. We know Durian Rider loves climbing

[@jascollinscork]

Thanks for this testing!! I think it would be fair to say that our old rim brake bikes STILL have a place in our would 😁🤔

[@davidgarza2267]

Nice touch with the captain planet soundtrack.

[@lexington476]

0:06 yes! the hat man 🤠 is back 😀! Everyone needs a good critic 🙂.

[@davidtyler5129]

You’re a funny bugger Cam. Great clip and content. I use to own an S-Works SL6 Tarmac, before I got the 2023 SLR01 and so I’ll be keen to see how the next project goes. Keep putting out these reports Cam. Always interesting 🚴🏼🤙🚵‍♂️💪

[@paulclark895]

Loved the concept and the resultant video. Yes please try to replicate with other brands. I would expect the heavier setup to roll further down a hill.

[@ozgurinsan]

So rim brakes win in virtually every situation.

[@seandunderdale]

possibly not in races with lots of fast descents, and mixed conditions like rain.

[@TheRimBrakeGuy]

No surprise there, disc brakes were introduced really to force a full renewal of the bike "fleet" to drive sales momentum. Really a true marketing moment for the industry.

[@ozgurinsan]

@@seandunderdale I also use disc brakes and will never return to rim brakes, but truth is truth.

[@fredEVOIX]

not a road cyclis but I know one and I can tell you why he changed because you don't want rim brakes failing you when going down a mountain at 44mph >

[@goodeggnoggs]

@@TheRimBrakeGuy spot on.. a total rebrand to make your current rim bike look obsolete..I notice the nicer paint jobs started to appear at the same time too lol!

[@carlosgaspar8447]

for some of those tests (like coasting), the rim brake bike could have used the disc wheels; but the main thing is how to explain the 10% gains in this year's tour (not marginal); this meant that some records of the climbs were bested by the top 10 riders and bardet even said that he's pushing 40 watts more than 10 years ago.

[@whichwayiszigzag]

Great vid! I find myself riding rim brakes more and more as well. I'll probably sell off all my disc bikes next spring and spend it all on gucci steel bikes.

[@patrickarchibald6787]

Thanks for the vid, im hanging on to my 2010 Dura Ace equipped Merida Scultura now, no need to change if its just as quick as modern bikes. Just a thought, hope you can respond to this Cam. The rider produces by far the most drag, aero frames in comparison give marginal gains. Most modern aero bikes have a lower stack height, and put the rider in a more aero position with a flatter back and so less frontal area. I would ague when other KZbinrs have tested modern aero bikes and compared them to older rim brake models, it is the body position on modern bikes that makes them faster when they test them. You have replicated the body position on both bikes you tested, so it makes it a more level playing field.

[@WenqiZhang]

Crazy that your 2013 bike ended up faster despite the aero improvements of the 2024 bike. I wonder if some of the later aero rim brake bikes (like a Bianchi XR4, Pinarello Dogma F) would be faster still - or if they'll end up being slower than the disc brake bikes because of their weight? If you ever get a channel sponsor would love to see you test a Dogma F rim vs disc (or the same design in rim vs disc) @Pinarello

[@IlPinnacolo]

Aero frames are mostly BS. Once you have bottles and a rider on there most of the airflow is disrupted anyway. I would wager that 99% of the aero in this condition comes from the fork, bars, and head tube. P.s. they quietly dropped the 3:1 rule around the same time they started pushing disc brakes. So they were granted a tube profile advantage. This is why you see forks with super wide chord lengths now. A rim brake bike without the 3:1 rule would be even faster.

[@mrvwbug4423]

Set up matters too. He set up his 2023 bike like a 2013 bike and didn't take advantage of things like wider tubeless tires. I think with a set up 28c tubeless and a well matched rim that gap would close right up. 26c clinchers is not how you run a 2023 road frame.

[@clinlashway9147]

Cam, great effort in getting high quality data! I believe the climbing speed difference is very significant, at 2.5% = 5 seconds/200 seconds. I strongly suspect the differences you measured are real. But, as much as we might want to draw a conclusion that rim brake bikes are faster while climbing etc., we simply cannot do this. Even if somehow every other aspect was truly identical, which it isn’t because that’s essentially impossible, there’s always the potential for some unknown error. This of course is the reason that scientific tests, which this is, have to be independently reproduced by others. Just as you brought up at the end of the video. Just looking at the climbing data, something doesn’t add up. The disc brake bike is 235 g heavier. I’m estimating the total weight is around 110 kg. So, this weight difference is only about 0.2% weight difference. So, weight couldn’t possible explain the 2.5% in climbing speed. If we then look to aero difference to explain this, I get some back of the envelop estimates that using the rim brake bike would have to be about 8% more aero (8% lower CdA). There’s simply no way the rim brakes are going to be 8% lower total CdA. We know the rider dominates the aero losses. Also, other testing I've seen shows aero differences are very small to non-existent between rim and disc brakes. So, if there really is something in the range of 8% aero difference, it’s not going to be due to the rim brakes vs disc. It pretty much would have to be rider position. My point is not to poke holes in your efforts. Getting good data, which you have done, is very hard to do and takes a lot of time and effort. For those who have never done this type of testing, it is much harder than you think to do it well. I just don’t think the majority of the difference, at least for the climbing test, can be attributed to rim vs disc brakes. I think there’s something else going on. Cam, thanks again for this effort.

[@TomHir-i9k]

Strongly agree, I tried to estimate the difference needed in weight assuming a constant efficiency, for a 3.6% slope over a distance of 1.47 km at 353 watts, using the formula P=m⋅g⋅v⋅sin⁡(θ)/n. and it would require the bike-rider complex to be 3 kg heavier to explain a 6 seconds time difference. So there must be something else going on here. Would be curious on Cam's hypothesis on this

[@FringeWizard2]

I am getting tons of these videos recommended to me and I suspect it is a hidden agenda to drive more consumer cycles by making us all think we need a new bike again and have to buy rim brakes now.

[@davidlilja9180]

Cam, another very interesting series of test outcomes. Real world back to back tests are hard to find. Perhaps if you carried the extra 235gms in your jersey pockets (hidden from aero influences) on the 2013 bike as a comparison, we'd know more about aero, etc. Extra mass should make your rolling distance greater, momentum does matter, after all, just as it makes climbing slower, even on slopes below that 'magical' 7-8%. If mass is different, what can the results actually show us? I've always wondered why pros don't add 2 bottles at the top of each climb before a long descent. So, my 61cm 2018 RCA @ 7.2kgs with 45mm/28mm OD aero wheels/tyres, aero bars & a slammed -20 stem with Tri-Rig brakes could be faster than a current R5 with discs & Di2? These tests do of course open up the chance to test climbing bikes vs aero bikes, an R5 vs an S5 perhaps? I love my rim-brake bikes, but I'm not so certain the marketplace does, unless buying a cheap rim-brake 'old-school' bike becomes a thing for many others, too. 🤔

[@imranwahid11]

Great video Cam. Clearly you have put a lot of effort. Thank you for that. I have few observations: (1) 6.8kg disc vs 6.4kg rim (UCI illegal) (2) Light weight bike climbs faster uphill, that's the science. But in a race, you'll have to have the weight at UCI limit of 6.8 kg which means both disc and rim brake bike will have same weight. Current model S-Works SL8 stock built is 6.4kg. You cannot run that one without adding weight. (3) Disc brake bike's one of main advantage is wider tire and lower tire pressure. This was tested on same narrow tire and 90psi (goodness!) pressure. 30mm & 60psi standard for most modern disc brake bikes. Wider tire and lower pressure mean superior grip, better cornering and better vibration dampening. All of these result into increased real life speed. (4) Disc brake bike thrives in challenging braking condition like sharp conrning, steep descent, hair pins, wet condition, etc. None of those were present in this testing. In isolation, a light weight rim brake bike may perform better in it's favoured terrain. That is why rim brake 'mutant' version super lightweight bikes are used for hill climb challenge. But in a stage race or crit or a gran fondo, where you have enough climbs, descent, cornering and variable weather conditions, a disc brake bike will always perform much better.

[@IlPinnacolo]

If you are using any more than a light dusting of brakes in a crit here and there you are doing it wrong. Not that it matters, any healthy man can lock up rim brakes easily. Wider tires aren't faster. 6.8kg from a decade old bike is going to be 1/10th the cost. More money saved for skin suits and days off work to train. You bought a disc brake bike and are trying to justify your expensive purchase.

[@Fatbutnotflat]

It's been proven that good rim brakes stop just as good. Ceramic brake line etc improves it more. And descending is never put to equation because a ton of other factors. So pure flat or slight climb is the fairest test. Lastly there is a wide tyre medium reach rim brake bike.

[@imranwahid11]

@@IlPinnacolo I own a Pinarello Dogma in rim brake and Trek Madone in disc brake. Neither of them are cheap. It's my hobby, I don't care. I have own more rim brake bike than disc. I know which bike I am taking for my next gran fondo event. And there no point debating with someone who says wider tires are not faster. Pogacar just did his triple crown on 30mm tire. Even Michael Matthews sprints on 30mm tire. You are telling us world tour riders are intentionally chosing 'slow' tire. 🤦

[@lovedogs8599]

@@imranwahid11 Per the results of this test, every world pro is using a slower bike because they are all disc. So I guess the answer would be a resounding yes as to tour riders "choosing" to ride a slow tire. But we all know that tour riders don't get to choose what they want to ride...

[@imranwahid11]

@@lovedogs8599 'Per this test' is the key word and I have already given my observation about 'this testing'. Secondly, every year the average speed of world tour riders are increasing? How is that possible if they are running a slower bike? Thirdly, world tour teams have some restrictions selecting their equipment. They need to use the equipment from the brand sponsoring them. Team UAE use Conti tire. However, they have full freedom to pick and choose which type or width of tire they want use. For a regular road race they consistantly use GP5000 S TR 30mm tire, for a gravel or cobble stone stage S TR 32-35mm tire and for time trial GP5000 TT tire. Clearly they have the freedom to decide the tire width to suit their need.

[@lawrencehallett5669]

If money was no object it would be fantastic to see the Colnago C68 against itself !

[@CB-ss9gj]

Nice to see more tests on this (long debated) point of contention. I guess the million dollar question for you is ... now that you seem to have shown its faster , are you going to be riding that 2013 rim brake BMC from now on or are you going to stick to 2023 disc brake version and why? EDIT ... I took a look at few online calculators. Based on those and holding everything else constant (and using some assumed other inputs calibrated to the faster run). I see the following for a 3.6% climb ... 400g of weight for the uphill test is a bit less than a 1s difference ... a 5 second difference over the climb is equivalent to about 14 watts.

[@rugiOHHHH]

thanks for the research, looking forward to the next one

[@morph__]

Great vid. Keep fueling the rim/disc fire!!

[@brasstinmancrazy]

What I was curious to know, is how did each bike feel in each type of test? Speed is one thing and it's very interesting to see those results and I appreciate the effort, time and money you put into these tests. Maybe a video on how each one felt to ride each segment, the pros and cons of each would make for an interesting video. I own disc brake bikes and I love how they stop but I also love how the rim brake bike feels when I ride it, it's more responsive and nimble and just feels more spritely if that makes sense. Of course I don't have the same model in disc to do a back to back comparison though. On the forums when someone rides a Ritchey Road Logic rim brake and a then a Ritchey Road Logic disc brake, effectively the same bike apart the design changes due to breaking types everyone says the rim brake feels more lively/springy and enjoyable to ride over the disc brake which feels like, to quote one person "like a pig" which could be attributed to the reinforcement to cater for the disc brakes.

[@MagicFrisby]

Good video, love your style. For the conclusion you mentioned that the body position could have been different from the bikes. I think Niel could have helped you to check the position to minimize the difference between both bike positions

[@henrycichoski81]

I would love to see more of these comparisons of rim vs discs! However, I am sure most bike companies would not as it goes against the narrative most bike brands are pushing today. And yes I am a BIG fan of rim bikes but do own a disc one. Rim for fast days disc for long days.

[@phillip6987]

Thanks for the great video Cam. I don’t think your testing with these bikes are done. You’ve evaluated the differences well between frame/brake systems on climbs and flats using mostly controlled wheels and tyres. Now we have a picture of how weight and geo makes a fast bike. What I would love to see is how the modern bike allows us further advantages (wider tyres and wheels), that the rim brake bike just can’t afford us. I would love for you to test maybe the same brand of wheels and tyres on the disc bike, except with wider tyres and wheels, as that is the main advantage and trade off with the heavier bike. Maybe test them both on smooth and rough roads just to see if theres a course specific bias to the bike platforms. I do think modern bikes with wider tyres are advantageous for most people, as smooth roads are not that common. This is coming from a Rim brake bike rider (2010 and 2018 rim brake bikes).

[@paulwebster4499]

Excellent video. Ive been asking Norcal to do something similar for months. So can we assume that Jessies claims on the Niel Millar show that a new aero bike is at least 20 watts faster be classed as bollox. I can also recall Chris Horner stating on one of his channels that when he finished Trek wanted him to do a commercial stating that the new Moadone was x watts faster, Chris stated if it was x watts faster he would still be riding the world tour 🤣

[@lawnchair4]

Rim brakes for the win!! Thanks Cam.

[@willyjammer]

Great video Cam, I really enjoyed it.

[@Pastamistic]

Identical geometry would be best obviously. Body position should be identical between each bike. Otherwise making them identical is totally inaccurate because it's ignoring the advantages disc frames have which is the entire point. Wider fork blades isn't just for wider tires but it's more aerodynamic keeping the fork blades away from turbulance off the tire. Something you can't do in a rim brake frame because you need the rim brake calipers to be closer. The disc brake rim profile should also be optimized to be as aero as possible in both rim width and shape since you don't need a brake track or a narrow enough width to work in a rim brake caliper. While tire construction should be identical that doesn't mean the width should be if using the wider clearance available on the disc bike means you can get a faster combination than the tire width you can fit in a rim brake bike. If you aren't exploiting the advantages that disc has then you're knee caping the entire point of performance gains. Potentially down grading it to the limitations of a rim brake bike. It would be like adding weight to the rim brake bike so you have a "fair" comparison with the slightly heavier disc bike. Personally, I don't think there's going to be any statistically significant results one way or the other. Body position, good fitting jersey, having a clean drivetrain, good tires and good bearings makes up the overwhelming majority of performance. Everything else is so minor it's extremely difficult to measure outside of a laboratory setting.

[@two20john]

Buy what you want, that way, you can't go wrong. For decades nobody moaned about needing more brakes. The bike companies had exhausted the "fixie" phenomenon and needed a new tool to sell bikes. hence... That's run its course and now we all need to buy a gravel bike because your road isn't made for the job:) Ignore Paris-Roubaix on 25mm tyres, what do they know about cycling. Happy marketing!!

[@sebroache3558]

Interesting video Cam! Big fan of BMC, disc brake and rim brake bikes. I have a 2008 cervelo which feels fast and very light to this day, but is noticeably less comfortable over time and i'm less confident on descents than my 2020 BMC teamachine with discs. The extra weight does go somewhere for performance but it's hard to demonstrate that with tests out on the road. Something to consider would be a "sketchy" decent test, but it would be hard to show differences aren't related to bike handling. Another thing would be spin down test of the wheels to show the bearing resistance is the same. Qualitative experience about the way each bike feels during each test is also scientifically valid, I'd be interested to hear what you think in terms of bike feel, vibration, stiffness in sprinting and cornering etc. Thanks for the interesting video!

[@warrennelson]

Great content, well done.

[@1mesonyx]

I've got myself disk brakes only on commuter bike. Solely for the looks and to have new bike instead of a 20+ years old one. When it comes to stopping power the v-brakes on the old one were more than enough for 110 kg system weight.

[@TESTA-CC]

Cam you legend, 2k Video Quality 🤙🤙