How Much Protein Do We Need? | Drs Stuart Phillips and Christopher Gardner | The Proof Podcast EP228

[@emilybarry9410]

Thank you Simon for continuing to ask the hard questions and for straddling the line between a healthy diet for longevity, health span and performance, etc. I so appreciate your balanced approach to the plant-based diet and I will continue to turn to your work for my own education and nutrition coaching practice. I also love the “debate-type podcast you doing, and would be very interested in a discussion with you and Dr. Peter Attia as well as you with either Dr. Laymen or Dr. Gabriel Lyon

[@ThePathOfEudaimonia]

Is Gabriel Lyon a legit and trustworthy source?

[@bscsmscs1578]

I am vegetarian (asian indian) & in early 60s. I have been on IF for >23 yrs (14-18/10-6). I am also D2M. A1c~6 to 6.2 all these years with only diet & excercise. I eat fruits, veggies, lentils, legumes, some yogurt, some cheese, lots of nuts, recently started taking 2.5 gms of fish oil capsules/day, 3-5 eggs/week. My numbers: BP-110/70, Trigly-47, HDL-57, Apo A1 -137 mg/dL, Apo B-101 mg/dL, small LDL - 330 mmol/L (limit

[@noreturn4396]

This podcast is cerebrally lightyears ahead of Huberman's podcast. These scientists actually understand statistics and don't shill products based on spurious studies with meagre effects. Good job!

[@arizonamickey1]

What a great interviewer….ask perfect questions and allows the guest to fully answer….so enjoyed!!

[@virginiemazy7054]

Very nice to see a normal discussion between 2 people. I’m tired of the food wars. Thanks to all 3 of you !

[@michaelanderson9208]

Phenomenal!!! Great information and what a pleasure to listen to two GENTLEMEN talk and be respectful to each other. So rare these days!!!!

[@suzanne2680]

Everyone needs to listen to this!! These are the kinds of conversations I enjoy the most - calm, reasoned, views from both “sides”, and, shocker, they agree 95% of the time. Mainstream media, our egos, like the conflict, division, shaming, and fear-mongering because it gets clicks and sells. But the reality is that a lot of folks are converging on agreement over a lot of good things, like these 3, and splitting hairs over other less statistically significant things or as here, different ways of measuring something, and that barely gets airtime because it’s not as sexy lol. Thank you, Simon! 🙏🏼

[@lindsaytoussaint]

I could listen to these guys debating like gentlemen all day long. Important points that they mentioned especially when in disagreement and adding context to their perspectives (“I study X and not y” for example). Yet again you have me regretting not pursuing science at uni 😭. Fascinating stuff.

[@k.h.6991]

This was clarifying. My dad(77), who is on several types of heart medication, walks about a half marathon regularly, and has better stamina than me, certainly doesn't have to worry about frailty and low protein intake. He eats roughly according to official recommendations. I agree with Gardner that it's probably the activity that causes the appetite and at his age, staying active is just even more important. When that's taken care of, protein intake follows. Philips is right that regulations for nursing homes should take higher protein needs into account. After all, people are there for a reason (and it's not merely age).

[@vhs10907]

Shouldn't nursing homes be increasing activity levels for residents, too? Or even more importantly than protein intake?

[@NicholasHallows]

A welcome listen after listening to a frustrating conversation with Gabrielle Lyon on Dr Chatterjee's podcast a couple of weeks ago. In my early 40s and recently upped my strength training and plant protein intake, and added creatine to my diet thanks to several of your podcasts. Keep up the good work!

[@laurenb4772]

@@TheProofWithSimonHill Are you still doing the debate/discussion with Dr Anthony Chaffe?

[@jimjim-hx6fd]

Interesting stuff! I did a low protein 80/10/10 type of diet years ago after reading the Starch Solution. Lost a ton of weight, slept like a baby, and was almost never hungry. Certainly lost some muscle and strength, but I felt so good otherwise I didn't care. Something really interesting that happened though was that some skin tags I had completely disappeared. In fact my skin in general cleared up quite a bit. Don't know if that was just a product of weight loss, but I've since gone through multiple weight fluctuations, and I swear you can gauge how much protein I'm eating based on how red my skin is. Don't know if it's some mild inborn allergy or if something else is going on, but anyone who knew me during that time will tell you I was never more confident with my shirt off. I did it for three years before getting bored and wanting to get back into the gym. It taught me a lot about the importance of calorie density and the role of fiber and resistant starches in satiety. I think protein matters, but not nearly as much as a lot of people think, especially if you're not hyper-focused on lean mass gain.

[@jakemasters4361]

Great conversation! As a plant forward person, I used to tow the "just eat whole foods and don't worry about it" line. But about a year ago I made a conscious effort to up my protein and, call it placebo or whatever, but my performance in the gym definitely benefitted. I still think most people are going to be fine just eating healthy whole foods and not worrying too much about it, but I appreciate that there's a space within the plant-based community where we can challenge certain preconceptions that tend to be bandied about uncontested much of the time.

[@charimilligan5326]

Dr. Goldner may help with some information you aren't getting.. Her STORY of recovery using PLANTS!! kzbin.info/www/bejne/f5KoY2CsmJh8jdU other great short videos kzbin.info/www/bejne/qqPRpGx5jbBkf7c kzbin.info/www/bejne/lZLGlYJrg6yKiJY kzbin.info/www/bejne/eIisdnidobqpmqc kzbin.info/www/bejne/mJ_NgK17nrmYra8

[@chasethemonsoon]

An interesting debate. I am a 66 year old vegan and recently I decided to up my protein intake as I was averaging 50g per day and weigh 55kg. I still find this hard and eat tofu and black bean or edaname pasta / quinoa every day to bump it up to around 100g. Sometimes prtein shakes. Plus more nuts than before. Initially I dropped my carbs to around 50g per day and was loosing weight even though my calorific intake was higher. I could not maintain the drop in carbs for long and now it is around 120 to 150 g per day. My weight has increased again but I am happy with that as a little fat and definitely more muscle protects bones.

[@turntablesrockmyworld9315]

50 grams a day? lol I am in my mid-50s and breakfast alone this morning was about 85 grams of protein!

[@scienceislove2014]

​​@@turntablesrockmyworld9315 and what makes you think that a whopping 85 grams of protein for breakfast is healthy? Moreover, protein requirement depends on body composition (lean body mass).. So, eating 85 grams of protein for breakfast would be ridiculous for this person weighing 55 kg.. well for anyone that would be abnormal. Also, more than 1.6 g/kg lean body mass apparently isn't really helpful ... I mean, isn't there a saying - " more doesn't equal better".. Aiming for 50 grams of protein per meal (4 meals I eat but one of em is slightly less , around 25 grams of Protein.. I'm 6 feet 1 ' tall 18 year old girl..) is ideal!

[@turntablesrockmyworld9315]

@@scienceislove2014 85 gr is fine in one meal. My total daily intake is around 140 grams to 180 grams over 3 meals. I know well about protein requirements in many contexts as I conducted research in the area w ile back and studied with a couple well known protein researchers.when I studied nutritional biochemistry. :) For the record I am 6 '1, 240 lbs.

[@carlaharmon4552]

I really enjoyed this. As a post-menopausal woman, I was looking for guidance on protein consumption. I find the idea that most people are at more than enough protein fascinating. I track my food, and I'm not a vegetarian, but I still struggle with hitting 100gms daily while taking in 1500-1700 calories. I agree that the requirements should be looked at from several variables. This is quality content. Thank you!

[@cyclamen831]

Simon, great podcast as always. I have a suggestion: could you do a dedicated podcast to address protein requirements with true examples of meals for, say from their 50s or 60s on or whatever age seems most appropriate? Perhaps divided into male and female needs? I think there are too many of us in this boat. I am a 56F and sadly a failed WFPB eater - 5 years into WFPB ( and I do blame myself) I developed severe iron deficiency anemia, while I also lost quite a bit of muscle when I was also losing weight too that, frankly, I had no need to lose. I have never been a big eater and I am tall and thin by genetics.Of note, my doctor would have never suspected muscle loss as I always" looked" so healthy, perfect cholesterol panel and perfect blood pressure even with a BMI of 17, so I think that the statement that doctors do not see protein deficiency is true only in the sense that there is no true marker or measurement to address the question of subtle chronic deficiency rather than the obvious cachexia of some ill people. I am eating more animal products now with my beans, but for the life of me I cannot really gain much muscle especially entering my very late perimenopause! Get your experts in !!

[@cyclamen831]

@@TheProofWithSimonHill Hi Simon, it's a long story (nagged by osteoarthritis, going plant base thinking to make it better- it did not- eventually hip surgery and slow recovery which I learned really you never do recover, so multiple reasons to have muscle loss) so my story likely is not reflecting the majority here. I do train now 3 1/2 a week and power walk 1-2 times a week. I do feel stronger but honestly I only started to feel better after multiple iron infusions. I still eat very healthy but I had to add 2-3 servings/week of meat/ fish / eggs/yogurt to my WFPB approach.I kind of fell for " just eat all the colors" and that was my mistake. I realize not everyone can do that but I had to become sick to wake up to this fact. When I actually started to count what I was eating in terms of calories ( 1500/day average) and proteins (30-40 gm as reference I am now up to 53kg- 169cm- at my lowest on WFPB I was 50 kg) it became apparent that I really was not taking in enough proteins. animal foods have a small volume so it is easier for me to keep up. I started some protein shakes now as I find it still hard to get 1.2-1.6gm/kg/day of proteins, but I have mixed feeling as they seem to me just another form of ultra processed foods. Anyway, I so appreciate your work, I think you are amazing! One day I hope to have a better approach to WFPB

[@deborahstensvaag2033]

Pretty much the same exact experience with not eating animal products and developing low iron…I still struggle my iron/ferritin levels, but hair is no longer falling out!

[@jade_roscoe]

Great editing! Makes the discussion more interesting to see the listeners, not just the speaker.

[@elliri3012]

I wish they had looked at protein more from a muscle retention aspect, both in weight loss and ageing. Dr. Gardner doesn't address that; his focus is on weight and calories, not gaining or keeping muscle. Dr. Phillips has addressed this issue for years, but didn't seem to bring it up for discussion as much as I'd have wished. I'd love to see Dr. Gardner and Don Layman together (or Dr. Layman and Valter Longo)

[@talks2squirrels953]

Chris with a beard... twists my brain... Always good to see him .. just very different

[@i3dont3care3]

I feel like I've struck gold watching this podcast. Amazing stuff! 🔥

[@wallyrbc]

A really great episode, Simon! Wonderful guest and you did an amazing job with the questions.

[@brianhowe2078]

Howdy, I have listened to these guys for a while now. Everything is very informative and easy going. My issue is that I started weighing everything for the last 2 months and putting in to My Fitness Pal to keep track and I only had 1 day in 60 where I even got 1g per kg. I feel I eat loads of protein but am always low. Don't know where to go from here other than a protein drink, but there are so many to choose from. I have also been trying to lose 50 kg and have only lowered my carbs so that I am losing 1kg per week. Really need a show on how to manage everything. Keep up the good work.

[@Alaskaventureswithbrodie]

More great info! I love when you have your debates..this one more friendly which I really enjoyed!

[@jereesantacruz6989]

Out of 8 dogs throughout my life gave one only protein no grains she lived the longest=20 years= no heart problems no cancer n very strong n moving til the end.

[@InspiriumESOO]

You think there aren't dogs that are capable of living past 20 on a vegan pet food diet? Anecdotes are anecdotes. That's why science matters.

[@Laurie494]

I listen to almost every podcast you do, love the information. This was also a great podcast.. I and many people would like to hear about Osteoporosis, I am a 63 year old and recently diagnosed with it, I have been a very active person most of my life training horses etc. Do I have to go on the medication the doctors are suggesting? Can I maintain my bone health with exercise and improving my diet. I have been 100% Plant based for 1.6 years. Please do a deep dive on this subject. Thank you and keep the podcasts coming..

[@jellybeanvinkler4878]

I am here to listen to Stu, but as someone else stated, he is wishy washy in this interview. Vegans and vegetarians have a hard time getting enough protein, period. Especoally as you age. You don't have to agree with everything your host says, Stu! I know a few veggie/vegan women in their 60's, very active, and with full blown osteoporosis. THEY DO NOT GET ENOUGH PROTEIN. Eat animal products.

[@Starry_Night_Sky7455]

@@jellybeanvinkler4878 My diet is omnivore. I wonder if those vegan women with osteoporosis were on a rather long term caloric restrictive diet? Just an interesting question.

[@charimilligan5326]

Dr. Goldner may help with some information you aren't getting.. Her STORY of recovery using PLANTS!! kzbin.info/www/bejne/f5KoY2CsmJh8jdU other great short videos kzbin.info/www/bejne/qqPRpGx5jbBkf7c kzbin.info/www/bejne/lZLGlYJrg6yKiJY kzbin.info/www/bejne/eIisdnidobqpmqc kzbin.info/www/bejne/mJ_NgK17nrmYra8

[@chuckleezodiac24]

doctors push calcium supplements & D3 for osteoporosis. some say calcium accumulates in arteries. take K2/D3 to send calcium to bones & teeth instead of arteries. increase dietary calcium. increase protein (at least 1 gm/kg) & add resistance training. "Indeed, more than 50% of elderly men and almost 70% of elderly women in the US are considered regular users of calcium supplements." "in fact, calcium intake from dietary sources does not seem to increase cardiovascular risk, while calcium supplements might raise CHD risk." -- from study: Calcium supplements: Good for the bone, bad for the heart? A systematic updated appraisal -- Marco B. Morelli, 2020.

[@ThePathOfEudaimonia]

One of my favourite conversations so far!

[@garyloewenthal]

In studies of older populations showing an association between higher protein intake and better health, is there possible reverse causation? Do healthier older adults exercise more and have more robust appetites, and therefore consume more protein (and more calories overall)? As Stu implied, interventional studies may shed light on this.

[@TenTempeh]

That's a great thought process. Enjoyed it, thanks.

[@chuckleezodiac24]

probably. old vegans are too weak to exercise -- leading to decreased appetite, decreased food intake, decreased protein, decreased energy... it's a vicious cycle.

[@StephenMarkTurner]

I am 66, I try for about 1.5 times the RDA (1.2 g / kg). Mostly plants, a little cheese. I weigh about 70 kg, so 1.2 * 70 = 84 g. For a comparison, roughly 15% on 2200 Cal = 82 g, so very similar. If I were trying to add some muscle, via a month or two of hard training, I would have no objection to supplementing that up to perhaps close to double the RDA (112 g) for that period of training.

[@xtdude]

Best discussion on protein I've heard. Cuddos.

[@leniolesch896]

This was a great episode. I didn’t missed any fighting. It was just so interesting to learn so much nuances by this debate type episode. Btw I have a guest recommendation: Glenn McConell from Victoria State University in Melbourne. I recently discovered his podcast Inside Exercise.

[@oolala53]

Concerning land us, I have read that the best use of land to provide protein would not be just for plant agriculture but include providing grazing for dairy cows. I read Barbara Rolls's book decades ago and it did help when I turned the corner and committed to give up bingeing on sweets. I had already used her method at times, but bingeing is not about not being full from food, it's about an intense dopamine hit-not as strong by any means as drugs like heroin, but not about real hunger, either. So even though I was eating filling meals, I still binged on sweets just about every day and it got worse and worse. Eating real meals without sweets but usually with freggies and whole grain plus animal foods was key as much from a psychological side because I could tell myself I wasn't eating too little and didn't need that extra food when the urges came. Urges to binge on junk were more likely WHEN I WAS FULL. When I was really hungry, I wanted more savory, real food. It took quite awhile to wean myself off the insane amount of sugar I was ingesting.

[@happyvegancouple]

So glad to hear Dr. Gardner dismiss the myth of plant protein not having all essential amino acids. Just today I was reading Emeran Mayer's recent newsletter, and his health writer in an article on protein needs espoused the myth! I learned about Emeran from Dr. B and so it surprises me to hear this incorrect info coming from him. Simon, I teach WFPB nutrition to older folks. My question is this: If someone older, let's say 70, my age, eats a diverse WFPB diet, walks and does resistance, can balance on one foot for more than 30-60 seconds, can lift a 30 pound barbell over her head, can push 90 pounds on a leg machine, is there any reason to think this person has sarcopenia and is need of a higher protein level? What would you say an appropriate protein level is for the 70 year old I just described? This person is not an athletic competitor, just trying to be fit and maintain a healthy body and normal BMI. I love your work Simon and am grateful for all that you do to educate the public. Thank you ever so much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 🥰

[@wgg6188]

You should spend time discussing fiber and how it affects on the microbiome/immune system.This is something the public is misinformed and severely lacking.

[@marcristina6669]

What do you mean?

[@wocket42]

Yeah, fibre caused all my issues. I'm glad I got rid of it in my diet.

[@risky725]

I'm 60. I admittedly don't know too much about optimal protein intake, but I'm always looking at research and data. My IGF-1 reading was 220 from a recent blood test. While within the normal range, I want to try, and have no idea if I can do it, to get it to the mid 100's. For ages 50-65, based on a study I read (which I will link later, and yes, there are limitations) the recommended protein intake is 0.7-0.8g/kg if an animal based diet. After 65, up it to 1.0-1.2g/kg. Currently, 90% of my daily protein intake is plant based now, and typically constitutes about 25% of my diet. However, I still eat small portions of wild salmon and tuna 2-4x week so the IGF-1 still may be a concern. I ditched beef, chicken and turkey and will abstain until my IGF-1 lowers, if it ever does, or until I'm 65. I don't miss them at all. I resist train along with other strength exercises during the week, and feel and look good at about 60-70g of protein/day. Opinions welcome. Between the ages of 50-65 and eat a lot of meat? See this: www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131%2814%2900062-X

[@risky725]

@@TheProofWithSimonHill and by the way, thank you for making your videos available to all of us. You present thoughtfully, logically and with claims support. I have learned a LOT, and have modified the way I eat to almost all plant based after doing keto, from which I lost a lot of weight, but eventually made me feel like an old wet sock and destroyed my bloodwork. Now, my labs are all acceptable and improving with every test and my workouts are now WAY more productive!

[@TenTempeh]

@@risky725 that's heartwarming to read! And yep, Simon's content is awesome indeed.

[@contrarian717]

​@@risky725 no scientific comment from me... but for what it's worth, just my opinion. I agree I also feel comfortable in more than one way at about 60g protein. Example - if I'd do 3eggs at 8am and another 3 at 2pm that's a fair amount of protein a day Id say (and my grandmothers would agree I know). Still, 6eggs are about 40g a day, which is way too low per modern experts on YT. Still, my common sense, gut feel, says differently. I'm naturally sceptic on all these studies, experts etc. In these days of conflicting views and information overload, common sense goes a long way. Yeah, just my opinion 😉

[@davidhogg1216]

Surely the “RDA” has to be dynamic. The dynamic is surely the intake of calories. 0.8 is a figure based on the 2000 cal intake per day. Now if I’m an Olympic swimmer in training I intake at least 4000 cals. So CLEARLY for repair and muscle development then I will need a dynamic of 10% protein on calories intake. 4000 cals intake @ 10% = 400 cals = 100 gms protein. As long as we use the 0.8 static RDA we will always have arguments beginning with athletes . Dynamise for physiological realities and we solve the problem: 10% protein on calories intake. Both Stu and Christopher’s points are valid.

[@kateandalan1721]

You asked good questions Simon and I loved the friendly tone of the discussion. But I think the longevity issue was not properly addressed. It is not really Chris Gardner's field so he was not well placed to counter Stuart's comments. The mechanisms by which protein restriction (particularly methionine restriction) extend lifespan (and improve health span) are many and they are via nutrient sensing pathways that are conserved across all species, not just interbred mice. Luigi Fontana or Valter Longo could speak to this.

[@careyjamesmajeski3203]

This is an incredibly helpful discussion. Thanks for setting this up.

[@toms8879]

where are the keto/carnivore centenarians?

[@mayurim9839]

Learnt a lot of new information from this conversation. Thank you to all the professionals and Simon for taking the time out to allow us to understand the nuance!

[@smilebot484]

great discussion. thanx for raising the environmental question. it deserves to be front and center. without a healthy planet none of this matters.

[@peterfaber7124]

Maybe the best conclusion is simply that if you eat real food, plant and animal based, you will naturally eat healthy and macronutrient ratios will naturally be whatever they need to be for you. I think it's fair to assume that evolution has optimized our food choices the best possible, IN the context of real food. But the artificial foods we produce, they confuse us. They pretend to be something that they're not. And as a result, we eat more of them. Processed foods are engineered (literally) to bypass our signalling system so that we eat more of them. This is even true for so called "healthy" processed foods. Perhaps not intentionally, but that's what processed foods do. They confuse our bodies.

[@peterfaber7124]

@@TheProofWithSimonHill Yeah that's possible. :). I believe that the elderly play (played?) a necessary part in the survival of our species. Becoming (great)grandparents wasn't rare. But I think it's important to realize that nutritional needs seem to change with age. That's my experience at least and I see it in all elderly people I know/knew. "I can't eat that anymore" is a pretty standard phrase. When you look at what the very healthy elderly eat, what you find is that they're not exactly following the guidelines. But they do eat real foods and very little processed food. Not a carnivore diet or a vegan diet, but something that's quite in the middle. It's not SAD either. High in animal foods but also high in plant based foods. But most importantly,.. they're eating enough. Frail elderly's main problem seems to be that they don't eat enough. I don't believe that longevity requires special foods. Just real food and enough of it is all that is needed.

[@kamanashisroy]

Did you guys see the new research where protein aggregates get into mitochondria to make it dysfunctional? But it does not happen if AMPK is activated(less carbs are there). I tend to think that less protein intake means less protein aggregates and easy proteostasis.

[@cherij7000]

Good episode. I was confused by Dr. Phillips assertion that there is no "need" for carbohydrate. He stated it more than once, and neither Dr. Gardner or you retorted. Is there a reason for that, given that our bodies preferred source of fuel is carbohydrate?

[@contrarian717]

​@@TheProofWithSimonHill good reply, well said

[@karawaller9772]

Enjoyed this chat. I enjoy about 20-25% protein, 50-60% carbs then fats fill in the rest. Some times I eat more fats which are usually lower carb days. I believe are bodies are highly adaptable. Eat real food, not processed crap, no processed sugar and no oil for the win. I’m an active female, who lifts, healthy at 35 and people often think I’m in my mid 20s.

[@mactri95]

From watching this video I believe I will continue focusing on getting my protein primarily from animal sources. Yes I will and always continue to eat plant foods too.

[@chuckleezodiac24]

omg, you eat like literally for real -- plants and animals? that's cray cray. you ain't trendy, player. pick a tribe and Get Woke!

[@freedomforestlife]

Great convo, thanks all - really enjoyed how everyone conversed so very respectful, but honestly too, as a vegan, got some useful info/reminders to take away, as I had been stuck in a bit of a thought process (I think after listening to a zach bush podcast, that I really should now revisit for clarity) that we don’t need as much protein as we think … but I feel I should have paid more attention to what segment of the population he was referring to probably. Always enjoy your podcast - thanks heaps ✌️🌿

[@carolyn4407]

I haven't watched this yet but I'm glad to see it posted. I just listened to Peter Attia with Dr. Don Layman which was a great discussion, but all the time I kept wishing you were there too! As a 57 yr old woman with hypothyroid, who is trying to rebuild lost muscle mass through resistance training, I'm beginning to question my choices. I've been vegan for almost 10 years and I really fell for the "don't worry about protein" that's touted in the WFPB world. I'm beginning to now believe it is more important, especially being female and my age and hearing how muscle mass is so important or health and longevity. How do I get my leucine? And how do I get enough protein while not eating too many calories? I've got about 10 or so pounds I cannot shift. It would be so much easier if I didn't care about the animals and our environment. But how do I stick to my ethical values and maintain health that I'm as close to thriving as possible. Okay, ramble over. Going to watch this episode and hope I can find reassurance that being vegan and thriving is indeed truly possible, even into old age, just like they all said it is ;) Thanks for all you do! EDIT: back after watching/listening to this just say thank you! Brilliant discussion and I feel much better now :)

[@chezqyah]

If you only eat a WFPD you just need a variety of plant sources to meet your protein needs and if not you are higher risk for deficiencies. The question is are these clinically meaningful and for what severity and duration. If you eat meat or not you still need a varied diet to aboid deficiencies. See m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/qWTSYYqqfriorrM

[@JC-ct4yc]

As a 61 year old, vegan female, I had also hoped that this discussion would answer my concerns about eating enough protein, and in particular leucine, to trigger muscle growth. Simon, do you agree with the information that Dr Layman and Dr Gabrielle Lyon are promoting that older adults should eat 40 - 45g of protein 3 times a day after exercise? I would really appreciate if you could directly look at these doctors' recommendations. This podcast has only slightly allayed my worry on this topic. Thanks Simon for the great podcasts and interesting discussions.

[@JC-ct4yc]

@@TheProofWithSimonHill Thanks Simon. I see you hope to interview Dr G Lyon and I look forward to you perhaps challenging her statements more than other podcast hosts. Her Rangan Chatterjee interview left me feeling quite hopeless in battling sarcopaenia as a vegan.

[@smilebot484]

I think when they refer to elderly populations they mean 70+. But extra protein can easily be met on wf vegan diet even at the higher levels. But from what I’m hearing even this number for the elderly is disputed. If you’re concerned add a vegan protein drink to the mix.

[@wocket42]

Stu suggests to supplement a bit of leucine to the meals where you might fall short on it. I've recommended to to my 80y old mother, who struggles with eating enough animal protein and certainly with slightly overeating on plant protein per meal to hit high leucine for muscle synthesis.

[@markburnham7512]

Love the sanity here. I am 70, with obvious sarcopenia, and I've been driving myself crazy with protein.

[@charimilligan5326]

Dr. Goldner may help with some information you aren't getting.. Her STORY of recovery using PLANTS!! kzbin.info/www/bejne/f5KoY2CsmJh8jdU other great short videos kzbin.info/www/bejne/qqPRpGx5jbBkf7c kzbin.info/www/bejne/lZLGlYJrg6yKiJY kzbin.info/www/bejne/eIisdnidobqpmqc kzbin.info/www/bejne/mJ_NgK17nrmYra8

[@krzysztofh6308]

If you could do this kind of debate on environmental impact of different food production, that would be great. But it would need to be with quests that are really into that topic and really questioning staff and digging rabbit holes. There are so many things not taken into account in those studies looking at the environmental impact that this is ridiculous!

[@drewbuffington]

Everybody agrees when nobody says how they actually feel.

[@DocSiders]

As a Physical Construction "Building Block" Nutrient, it makes no sense to apportion your Protein Intakes based on any % of Calories. There is a minimum amount (The RDA) and an Optimum amount Protein Intake...and an Optimal MIX of Amino Acids (especially Leucine - where there's a 2.5g TRIGGER DOSE for muscle rebuilding). Optimization is ~ 200% of the RDA...maybe a bit higher than that for the elderly.

[@oldmango8606]

really well moderated, thanks

[@cattleprods911]

Great discussion! Shared!

[@saklan_territory]

This was super interesting. I eat a whole food plant based diet so found the convo re complete protein very interesting. One question it left me with is, do I need to make sure I get all of the amino acids with every meal or is spaced out during the day ok? Example: I ate a large quantity of protein at breakfast but didn't get several of the amino acids I needed until dinner. Did I "waste" the protein at breakfast?

[@woodlakesound]

Any talk about the body's ability to recycle protein?

[@scienceislove2014]

You're soooo underated!

[@antmark72]

Fantastic episode. Very informative and eye opening.

[@theslacker]

thanks a lot for this interview. awesome !

[@chillpurr275]

Learned a lot, great podcast!

[@kathleenbefittwell]

Really great podcast! As a nutrition student, future registered dietitian, and plant-based eater, it's great to hear the science, freely available to the public, not just random people sharing their opinions that often aren't even correct!

[@sandyglover736]

Great interview. I have a lot of respect for both of these gentlemen. They both shared some great information and I found it helpful. I do have to say though, that Christopher looked a little less friendly than I am used to seeing him look. 😅

[@chuckleezodiac24]

Dr. Gardner is my favorite Berkeley hipster Vegan. but he usually appears on Vegan-friendly sites so he's not accustomed to a little pushback.

[@carolwong9279]

I’m 65 year old female. I consume 1.2 G protein per kg BW. Do you think I should push my protein up to 1.6? I am very active and have no health problems except arthritis.

[@chezqyah]

Simon your guests and discussions have been quite good. I am a medical oncologist. My bias is that I am a whole food plant centered practioner I eat whole foods most of the time plants I am 95% adherent. I am concerned about the link of cancers in food and most of the links are to excessive calories or animal products. My questions if any guests can answer them are that it appears that several amino acids found in higher quantities in animal proteins are linked to cancer promotion such as methionine, lysine, leucine, glycine, serine see Dr Oliver Maddox work, Dr T Campbell and several others. Could limiting consumption of these prevent cancer? There appears to be an ideal amount of most nutrients. There are some who are studying chemical or dietary restriction of some of these amino acids for cancer treatment. I wonder if the lower ratios of some of these amino acids in plants explains why in several population studies there are trends for less cancer with more plant over animal protein consumption? Could it be that the lower quality of plant proteins helps in ideally regulating growth as to not promote cancer? Can animal proteins be likenend as the processed sugar of protein and do our bodies benefit from the so called poor quality properties of plant based proteins which take longer to process and have less ratios of some essential amino acids does this deficiency clamp down on unregulated growth of unwated cells less than desired cells? Do these amino acid deficienies aid in beneficial autophagy to limit cancer causing cells? I assume some day we will show that if you eat the right quanity of animal products consumed in the right way meaning avoiding processing and certain cooking methods then animal products may be ok in limited amounts but that for overall health we are best eating moslty whole food plants.

[@wsipittsburgh]

my wife was diagnosed with leukemia 12 years ago during an annual physical, and we both gave up all animal protein, based on the work of Dr. Campbell documented in The China Study. She has her blood tested every six months. We can't prove it's the diet, but 12 years later, she is still at stage 0. Her cancer has never progressed.

[@carnivore-muscle]

With respect, as a healthcare professional you should know better. We know definitively that there is no link between animal protein and cancer, not in any instance ever. Please reconsider your comment 🙏

[@thalesnemo2841]

OMG another factually wrong comment! But this is vegan video so the nutters are out and about ! There are NO essential dietary requirements for any dietary requirements for ANY carbohydrates! Eat meats for an evolutionary appropriate human diet!

[@Yeastextract]

Nothing is known ‘definitively’ please reconsider your comment.

[@wgg6188]

This was a great discussion!

[@timothys9288]

I'm vegan, 6ft tall, 180 pounds, 50 years old, exercise multiple times a week and eat mostly a whole foods diet with maybe 10% of my food being processed. I regularly eat right around 50 grams to 70 grams of protein a day and get around 1,500-2,000 calories per day depending on the meals I make. I have zero problems with muscle recovery post-workout, zero problems maintaining my mass/body weight. I've been vegan 8 years. My meals are pretty darn generous in portions, so I cringe when I hear fools who call themselves "nutrition experts" try to say a human being needs 80grams+ of protein per day. You would have to eat in excess of 2,000 calories daily and unless you're an athlete or a naturally very tall/large mass person, you simply don't need more than the RDA of 67 grams of protein, even with it being all plants. I don't need it and I have tracked and figured out all of my meal recipe macros years ago. So, please stop with the high protein myth. You don't need more than the very generous RDA of 67 grams of protein on AVERAGE. I literally go some days with only 50 grams of protein in an entire day and I'm not sick or thin or weak. I'm nearly the size of a heavyweight boxer.

[@contrarian717]

Me too, doing fine with about 50 a day. I find protein hard to digest and not as good energy/fuel food as carbs/fats

[@scrumhalfwing]

They present academic research that shows that a higher protein diet than the RDA is beneficial to most people, your response is to cringe and cite your own non-scientifically monitored wellbeing? Quite funny that a scientific debate brings such non scientific response

[@timothys9288]

@@scrumhalfwing When you actually put together meals for a diet that contain high protein like over 80 grams a day, you end up with calories that would be inappropriate for most people where they would end up overweight. The RDA was calculated with a very generous over estimation. Only the largest people need the upper end of that RDA. Most people are overdoing it at 67 grams per day. Also, older people become more cancer prone with high protein diets, especially animal products. Only athletes or post surgery patients need around 80 grams. Any more than that and you're over eating.

[@Mrm1985100]

If you read some of Joe Millward's work, world expert on protein at the University of Surrey, it seems that people need time to adjust to lower protein intake, 1-3 months, but when they adjust they enter positive nitrogen balance. People also need to be eating sufficient energy calories in order to not use their protein for energy. Otherwise the amount of protein needed seems fairly low, with around the RDA being more than sufficient for almost everyone.

[@ZmogusJaponija]

I'm 47 6-3 165 lbs. Exercise all my life, rowing in my younger years. Recently got bit anxious due to overall obsession with protein, so much drama, to the point of Peter Attia saying that it is better to take statings and eat lots of animal protein, than 'lose" muscle. But I my case I was around 165 lbs all my life and the only attempts to "build" muscle ended up in building fat and feeling like shit :D Plus, I made tons of research and protein excess is linked with aging and cancer (D. Sinclair for example). So I'd rather stick with mild calorie restriction and moderate protein.

[@theslacker]

it would be extraordinary if you could have Luigi Fontana on your podcast. he studies longevity in Sidney, and he came to the conclusion that low protein diets are a key factor for longevity.

[@giuliam2531]

"people don't go out buying protein" * Challenge accepted *

[@luca6635]

I still don't understand how Christopher Gardner can say that we eat enough proteins, and recommend that we stop worrying about it. As I am doing exercise to build up muscle mass, I am aiming at 1,6 g/kg per day, which means 115 g per day. Divided by three meals, it's 38 g per meal. Considering that vegetables have very low amounts of proteins, and that rice, pasta, tofu or legumes all have significantly less of the protein amount that can be found in meat and cheese, I don't see how I could get to that daily target without consuming 1-2 portions of animal proteins per day. You'd have to consume lots of nuts, or a really significant amount of starch-rich food such as pasta, which would spike your glucose levels. Let's say that in one meal I consume a moderate amount of rice (65g) and a good amount of vegetables (200 g), that makes about 10 g of protein. I am still missing 28 g. I would have to eat 400 g of beans in a single meal to get to my target of 38g.

[@alexandarpetrov]

Use cronometer, 240g of black beans aka 1 drained can is 37 gr of protein. 6 kg of watermelon has the same amount. Lentils 1 can 240 gr has 34 gr. it really isn’t that difficult but however I do find animal to be better for gym and worst for health so u decide what u want

[@luca6635]

@@alexandarpetrov A drain can of beans is only 15 g of protein. With lentils you may get to 22-24 g, and it's a lot of lentils for a single meal! Dry legumes have a high protein content, but once you boil them, they soak water and the protein content is going to be ¼ of what you find in meat or cheese. Pasta have twice the amount of protein than boiled beans.

[@OmaKahn]

Great conversation!

[@barryth]

Just pointing out that the discussion of g/kg of body weight, shpuld really be focused upon g/kg of LEAN body weight. If you have an extra 20kg of body fat why would you need more(24g) protein! Let’s say a normal man is 6’ and 80kg (178lbs) carrying 15% body fat for a net LEAN weigh of around 68kd(150 lb) requires 1.2x 68= 82g of protien. If the same man puts on an additional 20kg why would he need 24 more grams of protein ? Would be pleased to know .

[@dwwolf4636]

​@@TheProofWithSimonHill Fat cells are metabolically active. They would require amino acids to sustain themselves.

[@educational-101]

Morning Simon. Great podcast as always. BTW I'm getting about 23-27% protein in my diet from exclusively plants. Now my question. This is a topic that's gaining more and more traction of late - ADHD. I'm wondering if the future holds an expert in this field that can potentially shed light on the disorder (hate saying that) and what part exercise and nutrition play in the treatment? In advance thank you.

[@carnivore-muscle]

Get in healthy animal fats and ditch the lower quality proteins for species appropriate ones :)

[@educational-101]

@@carnivore-muscle No such thing. Also, keep your poor advice to yourself. But feel free to experiment - so long as it's you.

[@carnivore-muscle]

@@educational-101 my advice isn't poor. I have 14 years in the field and I am a qualified nutritionist with a BSc. Get rid of your arrogant attitude and start doing research son 💪

[@educational-101]

@@carnivore-muscle Its poor and unwanted, simple enough? You know nothing about ADHD, simple and easy to know you can't treat or diagnose it with such little qualifications. Drop the ego and leave it to correctly qualified personal👍

[@carnivore-muscle]

@@educational-101 I am correctly qualified in every position. I am in a position to comment on it, I have autistic spectrum disorder and have successfully reduced ADHD symptoms. Get a grip, and learn some respect you absolute imbecile.

[@kencarey3477]

I do believe that older adults do need more protein as well as resistance exercises

[@TenTempeh]

That was great. I love Chris, he is hella moody. His and Stu points were complementary. Your questions always on point. You've inspired me that scope of 'protein quality' time ago and I'm fond of it, it's so strong. Systemic thinking babyyyy!

[@TenTempeh]

I'll check some of the studies tomorrow. That's also a huge positive point of your content

[@Arugula100]

What is the height and weight assumption these experts are saying for U.S. adults for their protein recommendation?

[@stanleyniezrecki2469]

Excess protein isn't a good thing for Joe Average. Several people I know have had gout and the consequences they described to me were really bad. I'm glad you brought up the Protein Leverage science of Simpson et al which shows well enough we are better off with very little protein. I wish the discussion could have covered the effectiveness or lack thereof of protein supplements. I didn't like how the RDA of 0.8, which is already excessive for most, got spun up to 1.2 or more especially by Dr Phillips. In the US we have a protein pandemic with insane obesity levels.

[@davidhogg1216]

Words of wisdom 🙏🏽

[@deadmanswife3625]

Tough on the kidney or liver I can't remember which one and the protein will just be peed into the toilet

[@brucehutch5419]

Protein pandemic. HAHA Double Mask to help save yourself

[@careyjamesmajeski3203]

@@brucehutch5419I have tampons in my nose holes right now.

[@ute.fritzkowski]

I never trusted these RDAs, simply because I'm short and should weigh 52 kg. All those recommendations are for people at least 10 cm taller and 20 kg heavier than me, or what ever the average for women is. Those averages never fit me, be it in clothing, the height of furniture, the size and weight of tools, whatever it is.

[@jereesantacruz6989]

What about absorption rates? Eggs 49% absorption vs whey absorption 18% 4 example?

[@larsnystrom6698]

A perfect setup for getting a sensible discussion. I know that Stuart Phillips think we need rather much protein to maintain, and build, muscle. And from years back I remember that Christopher Gardner was a vegitarian. So he must have looked into how to get enough protein from that diet. This will be interesting!

[@deadmanswife3625]

Beans and rice leafy greens nuts and seeds civilizations have been getting complete protein by combining these since before time began. Eating animals is okay as well

[@kardste8114]

?? If someone only eats a raw diet of 2 pounds of cruciferous and dark leafy veggies for 4 weeks, plus 1/4 cup of flax seeds per day- plenty of water... Would they become Protein deficit?

[@davidnadig9611]

I’m on the side of needing less protein. The body will conserve nitrogen with lower animal protein. We can also make amino acids de novo as well as recycle as part of the conservation. And animal protein digested to amino acids is a nasty chemical process going on in the gut. Try to find a plant even fruit that has no amino acids. Amino acids are everywhere other than in highly processed foods.

[@toms8879]

1.5 per pound of bodyweight that's a lot of protein you need to eat. how do you do that on a plant-based diet

[@cristinareiser5447]

per kilogram of bodyweight, not pound

[@jakobw135]

What's the RDA for protein if you're vegan?

[@Joseph1NJ]

I still don't see consensus here. Criss, anything over RDA, .8g/kilo is probably superfluous, and Stu, 1.6g/kilo is optimal. That's a 100% delta.

[@kamanashisroy]

Anyone discussed if some proteins have more inflammatory response than some other proteins ?

[@TheIgnacio777]

So if average pop consumption is 16-18%, then half are lower and need to worry especially if vegan?

[@Starry_Night_Sky7455]

28:23 Eat Like the Animals (book reference)

[@jereesantacruz6989]

So sounds like many soups may be highly satiating too. Cuz of water? The 2 big men in my home love soup n it doesn't have a large amount of protein. (N easy for the elderly too.)

[@jellybeanvinkler4878]

Took me a minute to figure out what skoleetle muscle was. 🤔

[@tk4329]

The guy who said that carbohydrate are absolutely not necessary is total nonsense and that shows you what basis knowledge he got about nutrition.

[@TheIgnacio777]

Why would i use population level data to drive individual protein intake? We r not driving public policy here, we want to optimize our own health

[@purchengee]

Yes, just 10 pounds of broccoli every day and you're breathtaking😆.

[@samanthab5006]

When saying 1.5g/kg body weight do they mean total body weight or lean body weight?

[@giuliam2531]

Total

[@250txc]

I can't go with the point that ~everyone is getting that high rate of proteins daily ...

[@sallywolfe535]

Stuart insists there is no evidence of protein’s effect on longevity or disease states. He ignored or has never heard of/read the China Study by Colin Campbell from an extensive high quality epidemiological study (funded by Cornell, Oxford, and the Chinese Government) in the 1980s, The correlation of animal product intake (with measurement of macronutrients) with Western Disease was linear, consistent, while looking at over 600 variants.

[@rbabados9967]

you could say that protein is mostly coming from meat but if the question is what are most people mostly eating....its plants not meat. at around the 1 hr mark. I thought thats what Simon was going to ask but yet made a statement that protein is mostly coming from meat. but thats not really the question that seeks truth in that segment

[@peejm1424]

Ok, so no questions answered.

[@richbunnell7426]

So much was said during this podcast. And at the same time, nothing was said.

[@cherylgabriel9551]

Delete this darn keybrd

[@oolala53]

Maybe it's because I gained and then lost around 50 lbs in adulthood, but I have not consistently eaten more than 1800 calories a day (female, 5'5", senior citizen) for more than a decade, and way less for around two years (because I have tracked most of that time.) It's more like 1500 most days. Don't gain weight! Gaining and losing definitely lowers maintenance needs.

[@sabby123456789]

A high animal protein diet only made me feel weak and sluggish. I had to urinate a lot and night and it was bubbly. And I felt sick after eating all that protein.

[@timmat8029]

How high did you go and what did the rest your diet look like?

[@sabby123456789]

@@timmat8029 100+ grams. Mostly chicken drumsticks without the fat, lean ground beef, and beef stew meat.

[@sabby123456789]

@@BloodGangBrazy Less than 20 g.

[@marcristina6669]

I did have the same he excatly the same i am eating now more healthy carbs

[@contrarian717]

Sabby same. Too much protein exhaust me.

[@WayneW64]

Dropped at 24 minutes. The “we don’t know” and the hell of incessant relativism from Stu was too frustrating. If you don’t know then why are you an expert. I mean come on there has to be a number you think is best/right.

[@lindsaytoussaint]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/kGSWf4SCd8uHbLM

[@TenTempeh]

@@TheProofWithSimonHill Godlike comeback. Holy fck

[@mackinprof]

Sorry for the "incessant relativism" Steve. Science is a process, not an absolute answer (ever). Have a look here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qGmnhKOFmZWBkMU

[@contrarian717]

Nobody really knows friend. The mystery of health and the human body

[@delishme2]

Dr Don Layman may be able to answer that for you. He is a retired Stanford Professor who is published and cited over 40 000 times. It changes according to age, gender, health etc but the RDA's are the minimum to NOT cause disease and are inadequate. He recommends approx 120 to 150g a day, and vwry important to spread that out over 3 meals, if requirements are higher, maybe 4 meals. 😊✌️

[@delishme2]

The RDA IS the minimum.