HOW MUCH PROTEIN IS NEEDED TO GROW?

[@tommcgivern8020]

The man has a public service announcement.

[@davidt2407]

Great video. Ironically I have seen people misrepresent your argument in the past when its simply to illustrate what the actual energy needs to lay down tissue are. The point is to give some foundation for protein requirements so it isn't just some arbitrary number and to demonstrate going to extremes is not necessary to meet the ENERGY requirements (esoteric benefits to over-feeding like protein signalling or some other weirdo mechanism notwithstanding). It is also a bit reductionist that people are only focusing on one vector to maximize results from protein intake. Meadows was smart I believe one of his reasons for the intra-workout EAA+carbs was to reduce muscle protein breakdown, not just synthesis. Can we further optimize protein intakes through other means instead (removing liquid protein sources, using slower digesting protein sources so there is always aminos present, etc). Stomach / digestive health is an area that seems to get overlooked too that could help (disbyosis > malabsoprtion). Sadly I think the point you present is too cerebral for the average person who is just going to see the calculations on how much protein is "required" to lay down tissue and point at their screen with their mouth agape thinking you recommend only 40g of protein per day or something. You almost would have been better off just saying "this is the amount of protein that works, don't ask me why" but I understand this is for the sake of moving the discussion forwards. I've used your diet templates (shredded excel file) religiously for years, it is not low-protein at all.

[@troponinnutrition]

Thank you. I’ve tried to get the discussion going many times over the years-but like you said, people get stuck on assuming that I’m arguing for only eating a few grams of protein per day. I’m definitely not (as you’ve seen with my diet book Shredded). I’m simply noting that if we add 10, 15, or even 50lbs of muscle in a year, it breaks down to a very small amount of protein synthesis each day, which is interesting to me. It’s very likely that we need 300+ grams of protein in a day to get 10-15g of MPS out of that protein, but that seems too crude. It seems like we could be better off by optimizing the rate of MPS at any protein amount rather than just dumping more protein on the problem. It sounds like we might get a round table discussion going on the topic. Hopefully a new perspective and improved strategies for growth come from it.

[@davidt2407]

@@troponinnutrition On a positive note I do think the emphasis you put on real whole foods over the years has definitely moved the needle for the better. During the IIFYM era we saw fellas focus on macros only, ignoring (for example) cofactors found in real whole food (b-vits like thiamine required for optimal carbohydrate metabolism, magnesium/potassium, beneficial phenolic compounds, etc). Eventually IIFYM fell out of vogue, but it would be a shame if once again the community fell into the trap of viewing nutrition with a reductionist lens. The energy requirements to lay down tissue are what they are. You could go to extremes easily (at least in the short-term before your digestion gets blown out) by throwing in a bunch of shakes on top of your regular meals. The question is: is this more optimal than say, only using REAL whole foods that have all abundant co-factors in-tact (but eating slightly less grams of protein per day)? On that note, are some sources more ideal with regard to transit times? Are there phases where VERY high protein intakes can be cycled in strategically for improved results (like during the rebound phase)? What about acute over-feeding used intermittently? How does digestive health factor in as well (this topic is barely explored beyond 'eat some fibre/take a probiotic' in the fitness space whereas the alternative-health sphere is light-years ahead on this stuff)... I have a feeling this is sort of where you wanted the discussion to go, taking a holistic look at the problem is probably where the answers lay and probably where all the interest lays as a coach. I notice a lot of you top level coaches like to take a holistic look at a problem whereas I guess average fitness enjoyers just obsess over one specific mechanism.

[@dlloydy5356]

Fantastic information. Rational, logical thinking. Thank you 👍

[@Vibealive77]

At the risk of sounding like a COMPLETE creep... I REALLY enjoy listening to you speak. Your voice is really engaging... Thanks Justin!!

[@roydenmillar7047]

Justin! We missed you!

[@jeffreywingham5302]

I couldn't come near eating that much. Many sheeple put way too much emphasis on protein.

[@troponinnutrition]

I just want to emphasize that I'm not against high protein. I'm just cognizant of the fact that we're only synthesizing on average less than 10g of protein per day as new muscle tissue. If throwing down 600g protein per day is the best way to maximize that 5-10g of MPS we get, then great--but it seems more likely that there are ways to more optimally increase MPS. You wouldn't argue that the best way to fill a cup with water is to put it outside in a rainstorm that's dropping millions of pounds of water on the city because you know you can fill it much more precisely in the sink. Yet our approach to protein intake is just that--throw as much protein at the problem as possible and hope less than 1% of that protein is actually used to build muscle.

[@griffinahrendt323]

Good video. Also wanted to give appreciation for your posts on investing. I’m in my 20s and invest in the S&P monthly regularly. I was so shocked and could not understand how people were hating on your recent post lol

[@troponinnutrition]

People hate on every post. lol

[@albiecho03]

would you be able to do table talks with just Dani and Justin? The Pro and the coach?

[@kiddfamilyfarmllc9962]

Thank you . Shot and sweet.How about 1 day eating with trading timing broken down.

[@troponinnutrition]

I'll get one together. Full day videos take a lot of editing and I'm less active on KZbin, but I'll get one planned

[@kiddfamilyfarmllc9962]

You wouldn’t have to. You are right that’s to much work. Use a white board already filled out on what did . Or just this is what I did today. Your content speaks for itself. What you say carries weight.

[@MrRheo29]

Lyle McDonald has a great video on this same thing. His protein book is great also.

[@troponinnutrition]

He has some good points on a lot of topics

[@MrRheo29]

So do you. I think the reason you have a few commenters arguing with you is because they missed the point of the whole video.

[@12496k]

💫

[@robrick5493]

I'm not arguing for 600g a day lol, but couldn't it be possible that although say only ~10g of protein is used to create muscle, the excess protein could be causing an increase in the RATE of "muscle creation?" For example, a 200lb person eating 150g of protein a day created 9g of muscle from that, but he would have created 10g of muscle had he eaten 200g (I pulled all of these numbers out of my butt for argument's sake). We have nutrient sensing pathways that can sense amounts of nutrients present, so it doesn't seem that unreasonable. Now, whether carbs or protein or whatever are needed to increase the activation of these nutrient sensing pathways, I have no clue. Likely some combination of both with some coefficients that determine the effectiveness of the respective nutrients? IDK, I'm just spitballing ideas.

[@robrick5493]

Also, with the whole using one day of protein intake and saying "it doesn't work like that 365 days a year," it could be possible that it doesn't work like that because the nutrient pathways get downregulated. Like I said before, I'm just throwing shit at the wall, most of which is probably wrong. Just some stuff to think about.

[@troponinnutrition]

Yes--it's possible there is something going on where an excessive influx of amino acids into the blood stream allows for signaling pathways to be such that the body says "whoa--protein is in abundance, our protein turnover needs are clearly met many times over. Let's take advantage of this amino acid surge and store some as muscle tissue for use later on" I have no problem with that line of thinking at all, and that's what I'm trying to do with this discussion.....actually have a discussion.

[@troponinnutrition]

@@robrick5493 Downregulation would be tough because we're going to absorb the calories one way or another (or we wouldn't have the obesity epidemic that we have), so in order for downregulation to occur, the body would need to have mechanisms in place that decide that in chronically high protein intake states, storing that extra protein as body fat--specifically at the expense of storing it in the form that we store protein in the body (muscle) is optimal. From an evolutionary standpoint, muscle can be good or bad--it's bad in that it increases your daily calorie needs. But it's good in that it increases your ability to hunt big game and to protect yourself and family. So for downregulation to occur, the body would have to decide that in times of excess protein (i.e., where animal meat is abundant and famine is unlikely) it's more beneficial to survival to store body fat to survive a future famine than it is to store muscle tissue to improve your chances of killing more meat and/or protecting your family. I don't think that's out of the range of possibilities, but it doesn't seem to be the most likely outcome to me.

[@Your__fit__realtor]

Milos Sarcev has entered the chat

[@troponinnutrition]

Again--whether you eat 100g per day, 300g per day, 600g per day, or 2,000g per day--if you gain 50lbs of muscle in a year and divide that by the 365 days of the year, you had about 19g of protein synthesis on average each day. I'm not arguing that high protein doesn't work--I'm simply stating that the vast majority of the protein we eat isn't synthesized as new muscle. Is simply throwing more protein at the problem the best way to increase that small daily rate of MPS? It might be--I don't know. I would like to have a proper discussion/analysis of the topic in case there are ways that are more optimal at increasing that rate of MPS. It doesn't have to be a personal attach on people, even though that's how everyone seems to want to take it.

[@Your__fit__realtor]

@@troponinnutrition i didn’t mean any disrespect. I am actually on your side with this one although I love milos and his theories! I think his hyperemia theory being the best one imo. That being said I believe (like you) if you are taking in 600g of protein and you weight 250lbs you are eating expensive carbohydrates 😂

[@troponinnutrition]

@@Your__fit__realtor Yeah--I'm inclined to believe that 600g protein to get 10g or less of MPS isnt the most effective route, but I'm not too arrogant to say I "know" it's not the most effective route. I'd like to see more people chime in on the subject and might try to get a roundtable together to do a video on the topic. It may come down to simply "when I feed guys this much, they grow faster...I don't know why, but it's worked repeatedly," and that's as good as we get...but we all benefit by discussing it

[@Your__fit__realtor]

@@troponinnutrition although I already know what milos would say, it would be very interesting to hear a back and forth exchange between you and him. I respect both of you very much!

[@avocado6779]

Training with rage most important. Then the drugs dialed in. Then the nutrition. Gh overrated. Insulin overrated. Think about if you didn't train with steroids, and just trained and did gh and insulin.... What nonsence logic are people saying about IGF insulin gh being most powerful anabolic hormone..... #upthetren. #team2gramsAAS

[@Mike-xq7ib]

~1600 lbs of new muscle per year sounds ridiculous but you forgot to subtract muscle breakdown from that number. It's not all New muscle but also muscle being replaced by natural wear and tear and the breakdown due to training. You have to figure muscle breakdown and maintenance into your calcs too. EDIT: Or maybe you already did but figured it would be a nonsubstantial amount?

[@Biglenny-v9r]

Isn’t it proven that muscles “breaking down” and tearing is a myth?

[@flintsrevenge]

Justin I have been following you for a while and have always been curious about this argument, I am not saying you're wrong or that I disagree. If protein synthesis is capped at a fixed rate, how do you explain guys like Paul who have off season's in which they gain 50lbs or more of lean tissue, in his case he explains it is muscle memory. I understand that the primary driver of muscle memory growth is the presence of myonuclei, but does that not also require protein synthesis? Just very curious to hear your input.

[@troponinnutrition]

Good question. I want to emphasize first that I've never once in my life said that protein synthesis is capped at a fixed rate. I'm simply taking grams of protein in a day and multiplying it by the days of the year. As for Paul, I do Paul's diet--so that's a perfect example. He gained 50lbs of lean tissue in a year. Take 50 pounds, convert it to grams, divide it by 365 for each day of that year, and then multiply by 0.3. That's how many grams of protein he converted to muscle each day. That amount is 19 grams--which is exactly what I state in this video. The 19g per day case that I use in the video is in fact Paul Barnett.

[@sorenlindberg8816]

@@troponinnutrition Sorry I have not seen Pauls diet, how much protein is he eating a day?

[@flintsrevenge]

@troponinnutrition I worded wrong sorry, I just meant that for a given individual there is a finite level of protein synthesis that can occur in a given time frame past a diminishing point if return in protein intake, which is what I understood ur point to be. But in extreme scenarios where someone gains 50lbs of lean tissue in a single year, like in Paul's muscle memory case, then we typically see a massive drop off of lean mass gain past that previous muscle memory point. So is protein synthesis drastically elevated in a muscle memory scenario like that? And then drops off immensely to the typical 5-10lbs per year or is there something else happening allowing such massive muscle accrual in a short period that isn't mediated by highly elevated baseline protein synthesis?

[@flintsrevenge]

@troponinnutrition bc as you have said several times we typically never see 50lbs or even 20lbs of lean tissue growth in a year. Even for gifted guys like Nick Walker it's typically far less.

[@troponinnutrition]

@@sorenlindberg8816 Paul is eating around 300g of protein per day

[@TheModernPioneer]

The idea of 600g a day is absolutely absurd. I can’t imagine any living human in history hitting maximal protein at any higher than 250-300g, and even that is on the high end of realistic. Even the highest studies put maximal effective protein at like 1.2g per pound of lean mass.

[@troponinnutrition]

I agree that it doesn't make sense from a historical standpoint, but we also haven't historically looked to be 300lbs with abs. It very well may be that the best way to maximize the few grams of MPS we get each day is by eating massive amounts of protein. But for me, it seems like throwing 600g at the problem to get maybe 10g of MPS can't be the most efficient method.....perhaps there's value in looking at how insulin increases amino acid uptake at the bound cell...or utilizing IGF-1 at times of increased protein synthesis...or any number of other things that could be looked at and discussed. But social media is where discussions go to die--as this one did

[@Dave_Bee]

So eat more carbs ?

[@troponinnutrition]

Insulin increases amino acid uptake at the cell, so yes--more carbs will improve the rate of muscle protein synthesis on cells bound with insulin that have also received a signal for MPS and where all 20 amino acids are present in the bloodstream.

[@Dave_Bee]

@@troponinnutrition what’s crazy is metzler was a bit off the chain but he always emphasized high carbs, not protein or fats. 30 years later nothing has changed and people still don’t believe it. I admit I tried the alternatives myself a few years ago 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@ralph3538]

Yeah but Phil viz always right and is undefeated in debates. Lol 😉

[@troponinnutrition]

He took it as me attacking him, which it probably came across as given that I used the protein amount he listed in his IG post. It wasn't an attack on him or any of the high protein guys. It was simply a statement that if you take someone who's gained X amount of muscle in a year and divide that out over 365 days, you see that very little is synthesized each day. Perhaps going mega high protein is the best way to maximize those few grams of MPS per day, but maybe it isn't. I just wanted to start a discussion on the topic in case we could all find a better mousetrap to eek out those few grams of MPS, because adding even 2g of MPS per day would result in a dramatic increase in rates of growth. Social media doesn't really bode well for discussions though. The people in Phil's comment section are going to agree with him and the people in mine will agree with me. Which is silly because the value in the discussion is in trying to find ways in which your approach could be improved.

[@UncleMike81]

Can you give me a link to buy a pet rock?

[@troponinnutrition]

www.amazon.com/Generic-Pebble-Pets-Assorted-Colors/dp/B0CYNBDHY3/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1DFZQY6OMLO6Y&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.NxXVwCn5sOwjkVLESP51FolcJhPq9k1UDiSjyMd4ld41m0w5YEoba_XDMlEFErppNZ5b_Y8XIoMGSJnGB19HzgXgW-0eHB9W9Xhi4jGrwBrBKr1wgaVKbqyBBD3R_my6P62zD7Urr31srcrxx3Z1tyVwje64Jp1xEN4PXcP2jZheSYekEwsswZDKtgW-Kzmkpv5Ze2-PQkQUWEPjcGsEq30xmsTUv9hEmTbjMzAxWq32B3d0hQyOyl7o0zAnFddnV7gZKjVySS4c4XHii8I6xl9WQxx9loadrZ0z-uyN6cU.47a3_1H_Js3d2S6wCCBJY1ZjTKxLScZPWdkz5IGR-zM&dib_tag=se&keywords=pebble+pets&qid=1716994976&sprefix=pebble+pets%2Caps%2C119&sr=8-2

[@ericolmos7816]

The biggest problem with this video is Justin is assuming all the protein you eat goes to muscle tissue. Hair, skin, nails, hormones, etc. Comes from amino acids whatever is left AFTER your body utilizes aminos for necessary functions to grow new muscle. So after this video and all that is said is roughly 1 gram per pound of bodyweight lol which is what most already do lol

[@troponinnutrition]

Holy shit....you've completely missed the point in every way possible. I'm not assuming that at all. I'm simply taking the end result - X pounds of growth per year and dividing that up into 365 days. THAT is how much average daily protein synthesis occurred. Yes--every gram that is synthesized as new protein is synthesized as new protein. That says absolutely nothing at all about daily protein intake or daily protein requirements. People take everything so personal that you can't have a discussion on the topic. If you break down the total muscle weight gained by someone in a year and divide it by 365, that is how much protein synthesis occurred on average each day. When you do that, you see that it is a very small number. Now, we can all just ignore that and decide on an arbitrary daily protein intake because it's always been done that way, or we can take that information and try to find ways to optimize things in case there is a way to increase that daily protein synthesis rate.

[@ericolmos7816]

@troponinnutrition holy shit your video changes nothing about what we already knew how much protein to eat lol. Most guys are doing 1 gram per lb of bodyweight and most guys are between 200-300 lbs at most. So your recommendation of between 250-350 grams is already being done. If your going into details about how much of that is actual tissue that's fine but IT CHANGES NOTHING about how we NEED in order to get the grams needed per day to build muscle. Do you think your changing Chad Nicholls mind on how much protein he gives his guys? Lol the title of your video is how much we need to grow and again it's roughly 1 gram per lb of bodyweight lol. As far as having a discussion about it....discussion about what?? Your discussion changes nothing about what needs to be done so get into the nitty gritty if you want it still changes nothing about what needs to be done

[@IgorVolyn]

Its nonsense to say to build 10 grams of tissue you need 10 grams of protein. Plus we need protein for a lot of things more important than building muscles. So if you dont eat enough of it the body will not let you build a 20 inch biceps over using protein for organs for example. Some fools claim you need to eat extreme amounts like 4-5 grams per pound like chad nichols. Others claim 2-3g and some fools 1g. Dont be a fool and go in the middle with 1.5g assuming you are in a surplus with plenty of carbs.

[@troponinnutrition]

It is nonsense--which is why I never said that lol I simply said that when you store 10g of amino acids, you've stored 10g of amino acids. How much protein is needed to optimally store that 10g of amino acids is the question I'm asking and the entire point of the video.