How (Not) To Be A "Nice Guy"

[@xingcat]

I tend to say that nobody is obligated to go with you on a date, which is why it's called a "date" and not a "summons."

[@Valdagast]

And nobody is obliged to have sex with you because you paid for their dinner, which is why it's called a "date" and not "prostitution."

[@-nav-398]

Now I have this mental image of lonely prosecutors issuing summons to depose witnesses over dinner. =P

[@JillBearup]

@@MrAranton Buying people things does not entitle you to sex with them. Pretty sure that's what's generally known as prostitution. What entitles two people to have sex with each other is *the mutual desire to have sex with each other*. If you're buying women dinner so they'll have sex with you that's...I mean that's just really not going to work, tbh.

[@Cerbyo]

So your saying Emyia has to date Rin....? But Saber has to date Emiya.......I SENSE A FALLACY!

[@sownheard]

I have reached Level 75 Nice-guy. Remove they'n Trousers me lady. i have earn a peek at they'n garments.

[@fat1fared]

Speaking as a male, I can say this is a great video. I once had to explain to a guy who was complaining to me that no girls dated him because he was 'too nice' that his first problem was that he was blaming the other person for not wanting to date him. Different people are attracted to different things, and at the point people are not attracted to me, I feel I need to ask myself (not them) three things: 1 - what is about 'me' they do not find attractive (blaming others for how they feel about my behaviour is a good place to start) 2 - is this point something I would generally find unattractive in a partner if it were the other way round (as opposed to just a general incompatibility issue) 3 - Would I feel I am a generally better person if I changed this behaviour Another issue with the 'nice guys' is that they often also frame their interactions with women through a mindset of male-to-female interaction, rather than a person-to-person interaction. This is harmful in three ways: 1 - it means the 'nice' things they do are often framed as I am doing this because you are a women, not because of who you are. For example, 'I am paying for your drink because you are a girl I find attractive' rather than because 'you are a nice person, who I wish to do a nice thing for'. This leads them to often appear entitled and also makes their niceties appear fake. 2 - it leads them to treat women in a strict and rigid way that reduces that person's sense of individuality, such as 'you are a girl, so I must tell you these three 'impressive' things about myself' rather than 'you are a person who likes cooking, here is a funny story I happen to know about cooking'. 3 - It often makes them forget that this interaction is between two individuals, and therefore both individuals need to be comfortable with how that relationship is framed. If one of the people in the interaction is not willing to have the interaction framed in a certain way, then the other party either needs to respect that and work with the other party to frame the interaction in a way which is right for both parties, or accept that this interaction is not positive for either party because both want different things. If these 'nice guys' truly care about the other person, they will not just want to date that person to make themselves happy, but also they will want their interactions with that person to make the other person happy, and part of making other people happy is respecting their decisions on how that interaction is framed. Or put simply, they need to swallow their ego, and respect the other party's decision not to date them. Respect, it is important!

[@sofiapettala6747]

Alexander Matthews this comment is me and my ex-boyfriend relationship in a nutshell . I tried to explain this to him when he pulled the “why you breaking up with me, I’m so nice “ card . He ended up twisting my words and failing into a non-stop feeling of self pity . Wish more guys had your mentality, relationships would be easier

[@redforest9269]

The problem with "nice guys" is that they are no different than the "I only care about me and my own satisfaction" guy except that they're more clever. An actually good guy would NEVER do/say something purely to impress a woman, or complain like an incel when women don't want to date him, or want to manipulate women for his own personal enjoyment rather than ensure she's happy. (also applies to same-gender couples) Basically, it's just a tactic of deception, nothing more.

[@snowangelnc]

To add on to #2, it also reduces that person's sense of individuality in a sense that they are seen as objects that can be controlled simply by being exposed to the right stimuli. Such as "You are a girl and I did the required actions that girls like, so therefore you are supposed to respond positievely. If you do not then there is something wrong with you." It does not recognize the girl as a person that has the mind and freedom to make her own choices as to what makes her want to give her time and attention to a person. And what those choices are vary from person to person.

[@EcceJack]

Very well put!

[@solar0wind]

@BL They view the group of women as different from the group of men, and not as individuals, and don't treat people well in general, so if they think that they treated a woman more or less like a decent person would, they feel like they've already done something remarkable and want praise. That's because being nice doesn't come "natural" to them. That's at least my experience with people that according to the criteria mentioned here qualify as nice guys.

[@jesseturner6785]

Wow...that might be the nicest answer to this question ever.

[@JillBearup]

I reckon there are already enough things on the internet mocking people. Probably too many tbh!

[@bookofdaveandsteve]

Indeed! Now all I have to do is find a way to send this to 17 year old me. It's ok, I got there in the end, but I think this thoughtful answer might have saved me some time.

[@GGorsty]

@@JillBearup i have a guess of this topic being either too self-understanding for someone outside the sphere of someone who has not mastered social skills enough to understand this whole deal. I lost track, anyhow, my gratulations for your through explanation of this topic and have my fave as well as my thumbs up.

[@raspar6]

@@JillBearup You seem to respect their intelligence by asking them to figure some of these things out on their own, and I suspect that that might actually be a much more effective approach.... Self-identification is important to change I think, and that usually requires taking the time to think things through on our own. Looking at people we already know only increases the personal nature of self-reflection.

[@Bustermachine]

@@JillBearup There really are. And as someone who deals with crippling self doubt and existential dread when I try to self improve . . . Kindness isn't a guarantee that advice will be taken, but mockery is always a detriment.

[@isadoracostahamsi163]

My definition is: a "Nice guy" is a guy that is nice, until they get a *no*"

[@koolcat6320]

Or the following: Say/humble brag that they are a "nice guy" instead of letting their actions speak for themselves. Use the trick seen above to get sex. Wonder why they don't have a date and in the same breath say something creepy, inappropriate and/or misogynistic. Usually have the following: spelling errors, grammatical errors, slurs, wishing violence and threats of violence.

[@lowercase_ash]

How'd you put the little * things without it looking like *this*

[@koolcat6320]

@@lowercase_ash It probably the quotation marks at the end

[@MrChickennugget360]

no its not. Nice guys can genuinely be nice- but the issue is that often that is all they are- nice. Women are not attracted to passive men who are just nice.

[@coralecho2485]

@@MrChickennugget360 No, that's not what this means... Also, there are many women attracted to passive guys who are nice, but not many who like "nice guys"

[@alexandrudorries3307]

I would be insulted if someone called me a “nice guy”, I take great prode in being a “good boy”.

[@lowercase_ash]

Your pfp is an owl and I love this

[@lucassmart1473]

That owl is CLEARLY a good boy/girl

[@lowercase_ash]

@@lucassmart1473 definitely

[@radschele1815]

I would pet you on your head if i say good boy. If that is fine with you :D

[@ruzahel6287]

The owl profile pic is so cute

[@maxximumb]

Don't try to be the person you think she wants you to be. Be the best version of you. Your friends like you because of who you are. A girlfriend is, in general, another friend. If you don't mesh as friends, then you won't last as a couple.

[@tamarpeer261]

Me: gives a ball of wool to my cat Jill Bearup: gifts shouldn't have strings /s

[@atticstattic]

Gifts shouldn't _be_ strings...

[@llamallama1509]

Don't give string to cats. They can swallow it and it can cause serious health problems in their intestines.

[@MatthewSmith-sz1yq]

@@llamallama1509 Yup, this. Strings can seriously mess a cat up if they eat it. Best case scenario, they will have a poopy string sticking out of their butt for a while, and you can't pull it because it's tangled in their guts and it needs to come out on it's own. Worst case scenario, thousands of dollars worth of surgery at the vet's as they slowly and carefully remove the string. That, or death. It's fine if you supervise them and make sure they don't eat the string, but don't let them just sit and eat the string. When they gag, their instinct is to try and swallow whatever is making them gag, so they will just keep eating the string.

[@Qwentar]

🤣😂🤣😂🤣

[@standardtom483]

I'm sure it's more complex than this, but my feeling is that 'nice guys' can often misunderstand what it means to be attractive. Probably not helped by the fact that many of us have been raised on morality tales of 'it's what's inside that counts' and rom coms where nerdy guys get the attractive popular girls for no other reason than basic human decency which the attractive popular guys lack. Which leaves aside the fact that A) There do in fact exist basically decent attractive popular guys, B) The girls in these stories are meant to be better for the reason that they are attracted to that kind of thing and that's what makes the match OK and C) these are works of fiction that often massively simplify the human condition for the sake of a manageable run time, not a guide on dating. My personal feeling is we need more stories that challenge guys to push themselves - not in a toxic masculinity 'compete with everyone to prove yourself superior' but in a 'the best thing you can do for other people and yourself is to challenge yourself and grow into the sort of person that people consider attractive'. Obviously, that's not easy given how these can be read as 'let other people dictate your personality by turning into the sort of person they want you to be', but I think more films and stories that acknowledge a middle ground between the two extremes would be nice and really beneficial to guys who feel completely helpless when it comes to understanding attraction. Obviously these aren't excuses for this type of behaviour, but the more I hear things from 'nice guys' the more I'm convinced a good chunk of them suffer from being completely clueless about what what people 'should' be attracted to - as in, they don't get that it's perfectly acceptable to be attracted to any number of things, provided they aren't actually harmful. And the best cure for that cluelessness would be to educate them. Anyway those are my ramblings on the subject - great video, as per usual, loved your insight into this and the stuff about being someone who DOES things that you find exciting is a better answer to attracting people than being simply 'nice'. Hope it's helpful to the people that need to read it (and gave me a bit to think about as well).

[@FIDreams]

Not to mention the fact that some of the girls I've talked to say that their just plain Scared of 'Nice Guys' they feel that they have something to hide. That no one can be that nice unless they're hiding something.

[@neosoontoretro]

@Standard Tom Hmmm... I don't think the mantra that claims "it's what's inside that counts" is really a bad thing to believe. I think people really need to think before they vilify the so called "nice guys" otherwise they may realize that they may part of the reason they exist in the first place. "'the best thing you can do for other people and yourself is to challenge yourself and grow into the sort of person that people consider attractive'." Errr.. so what matters is that they confirm to other people's standards on what's attractive? Rather than be the best version of themselves they can be? Sorry, but trying to be what other people want you to be just cause resentment and this resentment breeds hostility which then creates the "Nice Guy".

[@standardtom483]

@neosoontoreto Oh, yeah, that's what I meant by films and the like should find a middle ground between the two extremes. 'It's what's inside that counts' is tricky, especially when it comes to a topic like attraction. What's on the inside being important should be about self-worth, about believing that what you have to offer is unique and valuable. In my opinion, it should be a starting point, and give you the confidence to push yourself harder, particularly in your interactions with other people. But when it comes to being attrative - well, if I had someone tell me the shyest, quietest girl on my course was actually the perfect girl for me because she's actually really funny and clever and kind and all, it wouldn't make me attracted to her. I'd just say 'cool for her, but she hasn't shown me any of that.' I think it's a very sweeping statement to assume that there's a difference between being the best version of yourself and being attractive - that's a complex topic and one I'm neither qualified to talk about nor do we have the time. But from what I've seen, to be attractive - well, first you need to understand that you won't be attractive to everyone, and that's OK. That's actually the main thing to learn in all of this, to be honest. The second is that it's not about changing yourself but learning how to present your best self, the attitudes you bring to a conversation, the way you make people feel and so on. I don't think anyone doesn't want to be a positive influence in a social situation, and a good chunk of being more attractive simply comes down to how well you can achieve that desire. It takes a lot of honesty with yourself and a lot of resilience to be able to admit you aren't always but try to do better. Doesn't mean changing who you are as a person but being willing to grow just a bit wiser and stronger at a time. But you will always feel like you're caught between a paradox of 'you are good enough as you are' and 'no-one's perfect, everyone needs to be willing to change for the better'. I can't give a generalisation to apply to every 'nice guy' out there, there will always be exceptions and people that are in rough positions. My argument is against... complacency, I guess? Against an entitled attitude that can bring resentment to others when expectations aren't met. And that it's always better to look at yourself, focus on what you can do and learn from the frustration of rejection or lack of attention and throw your energy into that rather than sitting around feeling sorry for yourself and angry at the world. I feel like this got a bit rambly and off topic, but yeah. Aren't any easy answers when it comes to dealing with people, is all I can conclude.

[@standardtom483]

@FIDreams I don't know which 'Nice Guys' these girls have been speaking to but that sounds a little overly pessimistic. Everyone's got bad qualities but you shouldn't use that as a reason to discount good qualities you can actually see. Though like I say, they're under no obligation to be attracted to anyone, and a healthy amount of suspicion around people you don't know that well who insist on being nice to you specifically certainly isn't the worst thing in the world.

[@neosoontoretro]

@Standard Okay, your shy girl analogy is kind of messed up because how she is supposed to show you that she's kind, funny, clever, etc. if you don't get to know her first? And sorry, but there is a difference between being the best version of yourself and being attractive. Because you can be "attractive" while also pretending to be something you're not. If you're really against complacency then it's seems odd that you be complacent to narrow notions what is or isn't attractive. As for someone feeling sorry for themselves and being angry at world, I think this just encourages more anger and resentment when make people feel obligated to confirm to your arbitrary of standards of what is attractive.

[@kingbeauregard]

This is a complicated topic, and I feel an underappreciated element is how our culture teaches boys / men that the woman they're interested in WILL take an interest in them, and all they have to do is persist. Think of "The Office" (especially the American version), where Whatshisname just sort of hovers around Whatshername until she finally falls for him. If we do that in show after show and movie after movie, I really can't blame poorly-socialized guys for expecting that's how things will work out. Now, at such point as guys learn the hard way that life isn't like TV, they can react a couple ways: they can figure out the right way to be on their own, or they can turn bitter, or they can turn manipulative, or they can keep doing what they've been taught and marinate in frustration. Whichever way a given guy turns out, I think we could eliminate at least some of the discomfort for all parties by not teaching guys wrong in the first place.

[@songbanana8]

I agree with your overall point but The Office is not a good example as it’s pretty clear from the beginning that they like each other, she just happens to be already engaged with someone she’s clearly not into anymore. A better example might be Zoolander, Dodgeball, Superbad… the woman gets with the main dude just because he’s there and it’s the end of the movie.

[@AvitalShtap]

So incredibly well said and it shows the power of media. I'm glad that things still tend to be improving drastically in terms of love stories...I highly doubt women would want to be with a "nice guy" like Werther, and yet Napoleon's generation all cosplayed as the titular character in The Sorrows of Young Werther and obsessed over him...

[@kingbeauregard]

@@AvitalShtap I've read "Werther", and yeah, that jerk is so focused on himself, he's paying no mind whatsoever to the woman's wants, needs, or interests. Of course, it's not like Goethe is writing her like a well-developed character either, with her own independence and agency. Now I want to read a version of "Werther" where Charlotte's a lot more 21st century. "Dude, quit being such a creepazoid! Find a Wertherette who's actually into you, I've got enough problems trying to teach Albert that I've got a mind and a will equal to his."

[@haydentravis3348]

On the gentler end of the scale, you are right. On the more extreme end, you have people without empathy or human connection, playing along until they have power. Then it's whatever flavor of depravity they were hiding the whole time dialed up to 11.

[@kingbeauregard]

@@haydentravis3348 Yeah, manipulators are a whole 'nother thing, and there is no redeeming them. Best you can do with them is shove them into a wood chipper. (Consensually of course!)

[@michaelgoleniewski2553]

Speaking as a former nice guy who realized many of these things a long time ago (and am all the better for it), very well done. Short, sweet, to the point, and full of language that's easy to understand with a tone that's firm but not condescending. Great video! :)

[@teamcybr8375]

I came so close to falling into that trap. Bought into all the primers for it, the whole I'm a nice guy why isn't anyone interested in me thing, etc. But I never actually hit the point of being bitter about it or feeling like I was entitled to those things. I was just kinda sad and confused and wasn't sure what I was doing wrong.

[@SHIFTY225]

The most salient point here is "be interesting" - a caveat to this fact is, "be interesting" in context to the person you're speaking to, if you like science fiction and/or sword fighting for example, then perhaps talking to a person who clearly doesn't find those subjects interesting is your first clue as to whether or not you will be able to hold their attention, A good way to ask someone out, after initial introductions, is to have an event or activity you find fun and interesting and simply invite the other person along, don't make it strictly about asking them out to date and sex and all that other stuff, let that happen naturally once a mutual feeling has grown in you both, for example; "Oh by the way, I am going to X thing this Saturday, would you like to come too?" (gauge their reaction, facial expression, body language etc.) then move forward or move on. Always maintain your internal sense of dignity and remember they have theirs. Don't beat yourself up, social interaction is learned over time through experience.

[@quietone610]

When considering that a hobby was a "heck yes" for your favorite "one that got away", always be open to the fact that anyone ELSE you may be interested in, or even aware of, that hobby.

[@cactustactics]

Like honestly, I feel like a big part of "be interesting" isn't so much having hobbies that perfectly align with someone else's, so you can go around looking for people like that. It's more about being interested in ~something~, having things you devote time and energy to, so you grow as a person. Just that in itself can make you someone that people want to be around and talk to, even if they're not into the same things as you specifically. Maybe they'd like to hear you talk about them though! Or the experiences you've had while living a full life Another part of it is that having a lot of stuff to do means you're not looking for someone to fill a void in your life. If you happen to meet someone interesting, then great - you can make time for them and see what this is about! But you're not treating every new person you meet as a potential partner, and that can make a big difference in how your interactions go and how comfortable you both are

[@quietone610]

Oh yeah, like "I know of things in the world besides my work, and what the binge-pipe throws at me when I eat dinner."

[@cmm5542]

So, apparently, normal people who aren't especially interesting (and no one can make themselves interesting whereas people CAN make themselves nicer and better people) will never find love. I would say 'good to know', but it isn't.

[@colleenlongua9752]

The problem with the "nice guy" mentality is that being nice isn't enough to sustain a long term romantic relationship or even a friendship. Being nice is not the same as being kind, interesting, emotionally available or compatible. It's a jumping off point, not an identity.

[@maleahlock]

I think this goes back to basic empathy. Would you, yourself, be ok with someone demanding a reciprocal love when you don't feel that way towards them simply because they have either made displays of affection or spent time fantasizing about you as a love interest? Always take time to put yourself in the other persons shoes. You may be surprised at how petty and mean spirited your demands seem after such an exercise.

[@IncendiarySolution]

I like your answer at 3:09 where you're like 'Learn to like yourself before you'd expect anyone else to do the same'. I like that. Thank you.

[@violetstarhaze]

I like do think there is a difference between "nice" guys and kind/good guys. That's how I like to explain it.

[@anonymous-dirigible]

There are nice guys and there are "Nice Guys." You want to be the former, not the latter.

[@JZBai]

I think the term "nice guy" is a bit misleading since it's pretty vague in what that can mean. Nice behavior in-of-itself isn't bad, but the intent is something else entirely. The more on point term IMO, is "passive aggressive kindness." Being nice because of your own personal beliefs/values/convictions/whatever is fine. Being nice to try and get what you want isn't and it shows when a person acts "nice" and they don't get what they want. A person who is of the former attitude will be able to accept the result since their nice behavior means something more to them that is core to their being than a person who only acts nice for an ulterior motive. That is the difference between a "nice guy" and a "Nice Guy (tm)."

[@violetstarhaze]

I should have made clear. I do know the difference between them. But I find that nice guys are kind people. And "nice" guys are polite people (until they don't get what they want). Thus a way to explain that doesn't just use the same word twice.

[@Cryogenius333]

@@JZBai unfortunately perception is King. It doesnt matter how good or kind a person you are if the people you are kind to are the type to quickly lump you in a box as a "nice guy". It's become damn near taboo to be kind to people because acts of kindness, random or otherwise, are either taken with several grains of salt(mistrust), or elicited from that person because you KNOW the person will do it(conceit).

[@somebodycooliguess1597]

The difference between niceness and kindness is intention, I think. That can be hard to ascertain as an outsider but more useful if one wants to regulate one's own behaviour

[@shmendusel]

I think I used to be part of the nice guy group, so I'll chime in with this conversation from the perspective of a "nice guy". I wanted to be in a romantic relationship, and I wasn't, and I knew many people that were, and I couldn't understand what the difference between us was. many of us had similar hobbies, similar senses of humor, and were generally good friends constantly affecting each other, so it seemed strange that after years of slowly learning from each other I hadn't become as good as them at dating. And I think the key difference was "game". the idea that dating isn't just two people comparing personalities, and checking if their personalities are compatible, but some game with unknown rules and common strategies, which I wasn't aware of. And it bothered me because the game seemed completely pointless, like the feathers of a peacock, they lead to successful copulation even though they have no actual value. being good at the game didn't signify anything important about your personality, and most people let go of the game and all of its pretenses the minute they were actually in a long term relationship. Why was I being judged on this measure which had no impact on the relationship, or who I was as a person? looking back, I don't think this part was particularly terrible, only the part afterward, where I blamed women, without realizing no one can control who they are or aren't attracted to, and even if they could, women can date anyone based on whatever preferences they prefer, and I have no reason to judge them, it's their love life. the problem isn't the statement "women date douchebags instead of nice guys" because that's just a statement, and regardless of if it's true or false (from my experience false), it doesn't blame anyone. the problem is the implication that women are evil or stupid for doing this, and nice guys need to teach women how to be attracted to the right people, so they'll have better lives, which is super condescending. It's ok to be sad that people won't date you, or that people don't see qualities that you really value in yourself; It's not ok to then hate those people, or scream at them that they're all bitches and whores, just because it hurts you that they don't think you're attractive.

[@evilsharkey8954]

Are you on the spectrum, by any chance? The “game” is a complex mix of innate and acquired behaviors and responses that are normal to most people, and people who don’t pick up on and respond to social cues in expected ways can come off as weird or creepy, even when they’re not. I’m on the mostly functional end of the spectrum, and even as a woman I have a hard time with the “game”. Being demisexual/nearly asexual makes dating a challenge, too.

[@shmendusel]

@@evilsharkey8954 I don't think I'm on the spectrum, I'm just very awkward and antisocial. But the game isn't just communicating with other people, it can also manifest in more overt senses like negging and waiting three days to text back, and if I'm not mistaken negging was shown in a study to raise the chances of a successful date. It's like acting less interested makes others more interested in you, so instead of just being myself I'm supposed to act a certain way to express the fact that this relationship isn't supposed to be a platonic one, but a romantic one. And my friends use these tricks, they don't really act like themselves when flirting, but it works.

[@evilsharkey8954]

Dobeye Eshel, oh, that crap. I hate that kind of game playing since I’m bad at it and find dishonesty and emotional game playing to be a huge turn off. There are plenty of other women who feel the same way. If I were you, I’d state right up front that you’re not interested in game playing and want any relationship to happen organically. You won’t get as many takers, but the ones you do will be more likely to be compatible in the long run.

[@shmendusel]

@@evilsharkey8954 That's a fair point, though neither I nor my friends really say anything upfront. When my friends flirt they don't contextualize the interaction by saying something to the form of "I am here on a quest to find love/lust, would you like to aid me?". They just speak with a debonair tone and express emotional distance and others perceive that as a mating call. I express (or at least from my and my friends perspective I express) an interest in what others are saying, so I listen and try to ask thoughtful questions, actions which I would label as nice moreso than cool or attractive, and so I'm perceived as a good friend (or again at least I hope I'm at least considered that) because a good listener and a source of support and affirmation is something you'd look for first and foremost in a friend. Maybe you were right in your first comment, and my romantic problems stem from social inabilities. I've been told by others that I might be on the spectrum, though I'm sure if my parents haven't had me tested I must be somewhat normal. I dunno

[@PeaceOfMake]

@@shmendusel I'm sorry, but "the game" or whatever you might call it bullshit. Your friends didn't sit in a class of "how to do to have game", it just comes to them naturally. I often hear this word in the context of manipulation and it's toxic. You say "I'm a good listener so girls don't find me attractive". Really? Do you really believe that?

[@teamcybr8375]

I came so close to falling into the "nice guy" trap. Bought into all the primers for it, the whole "I'm a nice guy why isn't anyone interested in me" thing, etc. But I never actually hit the point of being bitter about it or feeling like I was entitled to those things. I was just kinda sad and confused and wasn't sure what I was doing wrong. I guess depression is good for something after all lol.

[@coralecho2485]

Then you were not one of them ^^ sense of entitlement is crucial here

[@mittenvonscrufflears7233]

I always hate it when a guy does something nice for me and then expects me to go on a date with them or do something... sexual. When you give a gift to someone, there are no strings attached, otherwise it isn't a gift, it's a trap. If you ask if you buy me a smoothie, I will kiss you, I will say no and it's even worse when they DON'T ask because now they are basically trying to force you to do something. People aren't treasure chests where if you pick the lock, you get something inside. We're living, and we have just a right to live and have freedom to make our own decisions as you do, you shouldn't force us. That's the very mini form of slavery. And to prevent people from getting mad at me in the comments from that last sentence, I will point out that I am saying it's a "very mini form", not that it's nearly as traumatic and damaging as actual slavery. But it's a similar concept to what the enslavers and the "nice guys" thinking are, on a much smaller scale. And no, "nice guys" are not just as bad as literal slave drivers. Just wanted to clear that up, thank you.

[@awookieandagerman]

Went into this video interested that my sword fights KZbinr was giving dating advice, got through most of this video going "oh well this isn't all that relevant to me but I may as well watch it anyway in case some part of it is," then unexpectedly got just great life advice snuck in the middle there. Thank you Jill! The "heck yes!" principle is something I sorely need in my life.

[@daaknait]

As a former "nice guy", I can say this is correct. Everyone should be spending time the way they actually enjoy and learn to accept themselves as who they are. This helps you become more confident and you start to notice that some people grow interested in you, as long as you treat them with respect. If you start blaming other people, it's a tough and sad road.

[@ladypipflemmbini4133]

“I know a trick to make a man’s colors show. If he sees something he wants… tell him no.” -The Crane Wives Also: “You would think that I’m so lucky- that I have so many things. I’m realizing that every present comes with strings!” -Barbie: Princess and the Popper

[@doll_dress_swap12]

Barbie Princess and the Pauper? I see you are a person of good taste. 😄

[@PabbyPabbles]

If you're actually interested in the guy, though, telling him "no" just as a "test" to see his "true colors" would absolutely be the textbook definition of playing dumb games, and might not leave you socially unscathed yourself

[@dandelily9224]

I love the crane wives but don't recognize that line. Which song is it from?

[@ladypipflemmbini4133]

@@dandelily9224 I think it was from Pretty Little Things! ^-^

[@jetpage6788]

I think the frustration around this comes from faulty or misread expectations. Two easy fixes. Ask directly if you wanna know your romantic status with someone,and don't let wishful thinking cloud your perception. A third important point is that a girl's initial level of interest is likely to be pretty constant,not go through a sudden increase because you learned Italian. The answers are there,let yourself see them. Was she dancing with someone else at the club? Does she not return phone calls? Do you call way too much? Never hold a grudge,but never pine.

[@hongquiao]

The Nice Guy: a toxic stew of self-pity and entitlement.

[@timschantz3233]

Heavy on the self pity.

[@MrChickennugget360]

there is too much judgement of the "nice guys" here. one thing people need to realize is that in general highly agreeable people tend to develop bitterness- (its not uncommon because they often can start to feel like they give way more than they get) this can lead to resentfulness an bitterness and passive aggressiveness. Sometimes nice guys get a sense of "moral superiority" since they are "nice" yet sometimes being "nice" is simply weakness. Jordan Peterson pointed this out- there is a difference between being "good" and being "harmless" being harmless is not a virtue and sometimes nice guys think it is. why guys end up as "nice guys" can be for many reasons. sometimes good reasons sometimes bad reasons but at the end of the day love and attention can only be given and not demanded.

[@ravenfrancis1476]

@@MrChickennugget360 Nope, Nice Guys just feel entitled to sex for bare minimum human decency.

[@PeaceOfMake]

@@MrChickennugget360 Nice guys are usually far from harmless. Having a fit because someone said no to you is neither harmless nor agreeable. Try again.

[@cmm5542]

@@MrChickennugget360 I agree with you. I also think its sexist because as a girl, I never was judged when I felt hurt that no one wanted to date me: no one told me that made me an entitled and awful person because I wanted love and companionship in my life, and wanted to give love and companionship back, and no one wanted to share that with me and that hurt! I think it's awful to blame guys for feeling the same way, and I certainly don't think that being hurt by rejection is the same thing as entitlement. It is crushing to anyone's self-esteem, male or female, to feel that the entire opposite sex despises you and will never give you a chance to meet that one special person, because they can't very well find out whether or not you are their special person by immediately refusing to date you before they know you at all!

[@Shindai]

"If it's not a heck yes, it's a no" is a great way to live, I read something along those lines last year and it made me think of things I did that I wasn't comfortable with because it was expected, and the mess that resulted.

[@thaddusbone2077]

I'm going to try out this "whatever I do gives me a heck yes feeling" thing. If I like it, I'll come back and comment that I did unless the unexpected happens. Wish me luck.

[@lowercase_ash]

It's been a week, how is it?

[@thaddusbone2077]

@@lowercase_ash Oh well I have two things to report. 1. I have been writing a book about a villain who is planning out a heroes entire life. Could come out on web novel in like a month or two. 2. I went to a party where I gave everyone goosebumps at a game of Left Right Center. And got a few calls saying how I was the life of the party. ( Also I drunk Tequila for the first time ever.) For a guy who's a shut in it was pretty hard to relax and do things like that. I hope that counts.

[@lowercase_ash]

@@thaddusbone2077 Yep, it was great! I'm so proud of you! I'm excited to read your book when it comes out

[@thaddusbone2077]

@@lowercase_ash Thanks. Maybe I'll post a link here when it's done.

[@thaddusbone2077]

@@lowercase_ash Hey Ashley D. How's it going? Happy easter

[@TWX1138]

I could have fallen into the "nice guy" rut. In my late teenage years I realized that if I wanted to meet ladies, I needed 1) to do the sorts of things that ladies enjoyed doing, and 2) to be be interesting enough to warrant any given woman's attention. The second plays directly into the first. Being smart or clever, having good prospects or good income, even having well-developed hobbies doesn't mean that one is a good prospect if one isn't enjoyable to be around. One can insufferable even if one is strong financially or with making sound decisions. Changes to appeal may not mean completely changing who one is or falling into the sorts of behavior like the fictional Howard Wolowitz in the early seasons of _The Big Bang Theory_ tried, but it usually means some kind of growth of personal character, and usually means expanding one's interests outside of things that appeal to only a very, very limited subset. And part of the irony of it is that I married the sort of mythical unicorn of a woman who's incredibly smart, skilled, capable, I mean she has a bachelor's degree from MIT in mechanical engineering and works on NASA JPL programs for chrisssake, *and we met at a ballroom dance.* Like me, she sought to widen the sort of circles she operated in too.

[@Ocker3]

I was told over and over as a kid and a teen (by a lot of well meaning women) that I should be Nice. It never got me anywhere. What Is effective is being a Good guy, someone good at things. And polite, a gentleman, certainly. It's actually much easier to be a gentleman when you have the self confidence that comes from knowing that you are good at things, that you bring value. That's what we need to teach boys and young men, how to be Good at things, and then how to draw people towards you by being kind and gentle with your power.

[@brumbybailey6599]

Hear, hear!

[@darthvader0219]

Exactly, parents need to learn how to raise adults, not mindless drones!

[@catatoblob8598]

What were they telling you that being nice is going to achieve? Because it's actually also important to be nice, just not in the field of getting dates. Being nice is about social reciprocity. If I hold open doors for people in my workplace, I'm setting a standard of social behavior. Many of these people will then feel obligated to either hold open the next door for me, or pass the kindness forward and do something nice for the next person they run into. Initiating multiple acts of kindness can ultimately lead to a more pleasant and cooperative workplace environment where everyone can feel good and be more productive.

[@Ocker3]

@@catatoblob8598 it was relationship advice, and woefully inadequate.

[@catatoblob8598]

@@Ocker3 ooof. Maybe they were trying to tell you that they thought you were too mean?

[@jimithi5543]

"Be interesting" You are really tying my hands.

[@kevinaustin6971]

looks like the same person writing same question and she handled it really really well, the politest "go away" I ever seen.

[@johntabler349]

As a guy who sincerely tries to be nice I got a little hung up on the terminology, and despite being very unpopular with girls in high school I have managed to be married to the world's best woman for over 30 years and going strong. All I did to go from the nice guy who had 0 dates in 4 yrs of high school to being the happiest guy I know was stand by my morals, treat all women with respect, try to be financially sound as I am old fashioned enough to want to be a good provider and be patient to find a woman who appreciated my strengths and could be gracious to my weaknesses, I know she has made me better and I have faith that I have done the same, I am and will likely always be a not overly attractive farmer who is so boring that the thought of going on vacation repulses me because I enjoy my work so much. Don't know if this will help anyone or if I am missing the point entirely but there's my life in a nutshell (Psalms 37:4)

[@emanuelldaluzcaminha9122]

Do things that would make you say " heck yes ", what a nice idea, gonna do that now.

[@maleahlock]

This is still one of my favourite videos. It's kind, concise, unapologetically fair, and doesn't get sidetracked by whataboutery.

[@thetalantonx]

Translation of the asks: "I Other the people I want to exchange fluids with, and when I put the Kindness coins in, the Sex doesn't drop out." Speaking as a guy here, those Asks create a rather unfortunate mental picture. He's viewing the person as a machine, he has no idea how the "machine" works, and he's a few wrong button presses away from trying shaking and hitting to get what he wants, or declaring that like claw machines the whole thing is a scam (because he hasn't figured out how to work those, either.) He's the dude you never let borrow anything because you know he's going to break or lose it. As that guy's friend, the answer would be "No." "No what?" "No, bro. We're going to get you a hobby." "I have a -" And then point the dude here so he can see what he needs. Something active, out, where he can develop mastery and thus confidence, and he can develop skill interacting with people in a safe environment in a collaborative and non-transactional way.

[@therealxunil2]

I’m listening to your words,but I’m watching those coloured bars in the background.

[@evilsharkey8954]

“Learn to like yourself...” is great advice for people who find themselves always dating people who treat them like shit because they’re not happy with themselves and are afraid to be alone. When you’re happy with yourself, a partner is a bonus, not a necessity, so the desperation fades, and you can pass over the assholes who sometimes say nice things to let better partners get a chance to know you.

[@aknorth1053]

The saying "Hope springs enternal" comes to mind. I think a lot of "nice" guys get stuck in the hope trap. If I'm just a good enough friend.. If I wait for the right time...For myself as in most things in life be direct with your intentions and be willing to walk away. If your intention for being with a woman is because you are romantically interested let her know at the start. A woman is in no way required to reciprocate. On the flip side a guy is not a "bad" guy if he stops seeing her after she indicates she's not interested. There is inclination to say if all the guy is interested in is a romantic relationship and isn't willing to be friends he is a "bad" guy. I think this where sometimes "nice" guys get trapped. They don't wan't to look shallow or having a one track mind for severing contact after she as her right expresses disinterest. On the flip side woman need to also be straightforward about how they feel if a man express romantic feelings and not think less of him if he walks away if she doesn't reciprocate the feelings. Rejection is hard and it is hard to tell someone something you know will hurt them but it is the most emotionally mature thing you can do.

[@cactustactics]

I think the problem with what you're describing is that you have a "nice guy", who becomes a "good friend" to a woman, who also wants to break off all contact if he finally makes a move and she's not interested. That's not what a friend would do, so it sounds like you're describing someone who's only pretending to be friends so he can pursue someone. Who's only interested as long as they think they have a chance at a romantic or sexual relationship, and if they don't get what they want, the "friendship" is gone That's pretty much the nice guy mentality - behaving nice and friendly to try and get something from someone else, and changing their attitude and hurting the other person if they don't get it. That's a pretty bad way to act, and I'm not really sure why you'd expect a woman to respect that! It's like being used and manipulated I agree about people being up front about their intentions (y'know, within reason and with a bit of tact and respect) and there's nothing wrong with genuine friends developing feelings - that can get messy, and maybe it gets to the point where you can't be around each other anymore, but you're still ~friends~ and care about each other, it's the situation that's awkward. But if you get close to people purely because you want something from them, and you want to work them into giving it to you, that's a bad situation - it's not the basis for a good relationship, and people are going to get hurt. So don't do that!

[@nicobones9608]

I will expand on this a little to say that part of why some people end up with this "nice guy" complex and being upset that women aren't interested in them is that they see some of the women they are interested in dating truly horrifically bad men on a regular basis. Men who cheat, men who are racist, men who are prone to anger, men who bully others (usually other men) etc. What these "nice guys" need to realize, though, is that the women they are so pursuing who are so enamored with mean guys are probably mean girls themselves. Even if they don't seem like it, deep down they probably are just as rotten as the rotten guys they are dating. Nice guys, if you truly are nice, know that women who are interested in cruel men will probably not be kind to you if you do somehow manage to date them. Hold out for a true nice girl.

[@francisweller839]

I used to hear people complain about "Nice Guys", then I said that I was a nice guy and that I didn't understand what was wrong with that. I didn't know that was a term to describe this disappointing and entitled mess of a person, and I was really embarrassed when someone finally took the time to explain it to me. I just put a lot of effort into being respectful and supportive of the people who were circumstantially forced to exist alongside me, but this "Nice Guy" is everything wrong with the modern day male. 'Course, I stopped trying to ask girls out entirely and just try to be a good friend, so I guess it's a moot point

[@Anthro006]

I dearly love the way you state the problem and possible solutions! You are BRILLIANT ❣

[@seancampbell7884]

I definitely used to think this sort of thing when I was 14-15ish and what I find really funny looking back was I would get annoyed that particular women wouldn't go out with me despite the fact I now know I would've hated being in a relationship with these women because we had nothing in common! I guess my advice to "nice guys" is maybe the reason you have no success dating is because you're going after women who you find physically attractive but you have nothing in common with.

[@CL-go2ji]

Short, simple, often true ... thanks!

[@Conformist138]

There is a second subset of the "nice guy" group - the guy who complains that no woman wants him, but if anyone points out there are women who might want to date him he rejects them all. I think this comes from the fact that the sort of "nice guy" we're talking about doesn't want to admit that he doesn't actually want a girl who is also "nice" even by his own standards. Point out to this seemingly normal guy that there's a seemingly normal woman who might want to get to know him and suddenly the tune changes. Somehow they want to still be seen as "nice" while insisting that they should settle for nothing less than their idea of perfection. Ask that guy to push himself to be better (in better shape, better job, etc) and suddenly they switch right back to the idea that life isn't fair to the average man. It's almost amusing to see the flip flopping.

[@AnnekeOosterink]

Part of the Nice Guy (tm) mentality is often also that women are a monolithic entity that all require the same kind of things in a partner and a relationship (plus the idea of women are vending machines that you put niceness coins into until sex falls out) and completely ignores the fact that (shocker) women are human beings with their own individual quirks and tastes and aspirations. If you explain that "women" don't want anything in particular because "women" aren't a hive mind they scramble to yell that women go for the douche bags and women only go for rich guys etc etc etc.

[@rd6203]

@@AnnekeOosterink One Hundred Percent.

[@adiposeNarnian]

I remember the first time this really clicked for me. A teenage guy wrote to a relationship column in a teen magazine I subscribed to (long ago, clearly) and talked about how he was an ordinary guy, not bad looking, not a model, heart of gold, yada yada yada, and then these words exactly: "how can I get pretty girls to recognize that it's what's inside that counts?"

[@dkrhino65]

@@AnnekeOosterink "...insert niceness coins until sex falls out..." priceless

[@CL-go2ji]

@@adiposeNarnian O gods and gremlins ... "how can I get pretty girls to recognize that it's what's inside that counts?" ... 🤣🤣 ... that is PERFECT!

[@spacemanspiff3052]

Great words of wisdom, Jill. I’ve had the “Nice guy” brand seared into me for years. It used to get me down because I though, “hey, I’m a good person, I’m mildly attractive and interesting to at least a small segment of the female population, I LIKE ME, so why is it so hard to get a girlfriend?” Well, that’s partially the wrong question. The missing piece of the question is, why is it so hard to get the girlfriend I want? I’m sure that I or any guy could find someone willing to date us easily. However, since we are attracted to certain kinds of people much more than others (sorry, our relationship with our parents tends to weigh heavy on this, it’s just the way it is), it is often the case that the kind of woman you like may not be the right kind of woman for you and your temperament. Yes, I’m talking self sabotage, Mr. Nice guy. So, if you are constantly Friend-Zoned by the women you like, expand your horizons and try dating women who are different then what your normally drawn too. Or, this works for me (dating women your not initially attracted to does have its pitfalls because you could end up never really falling for them), try embracing the Friend-Zone. Women do love nice guys, they just don’t want to be in a romantic relationship with them, so if a woman who Friend-Zoned you truly has genuine love for you as a friend, and you really like her, try valuing the platonic friendship and you may be in for an incredible and rewarding relationship.

[@tildessmoo]

I can't understand the "nice guy" sense of entitlement, to the point that, before I read their own accounts of what they think they deserve, I was actually a little insulted by what people said about nice guys, not realizing that they weren't talking about someone like me who just tries not to be a jerk. (To be fair, I don't always succeed. Most people are jerks in some way; I happen to be an arrogant-know-it-all jerk, which is particularly annoying, but also pretty much harmless, which is why I don't try all that hard to avoid it.) But, yeah, I hope anon learns how to be a nice guy instead of a "nice guy," because a scary amount of sexual assaults are apparently committed by "nice guys," from some of what I've read. (It's all pretty anecdotal, but then again any sexual assault is too much.)

[@esm1817]

Jill, this is like the millionth comment so you'll probably never see it, but I totally love your videos. And I agree about the main points of the video, but I feel like people are missing one of the main reasons why people develop this kind of "nice guy" complex. Before I make my points, I concede that the "nice guy" thing is an unhelpful defense mechanism. That's especially true when a guy acts as though (being a "nice guy") he is a gift from God. But I have more complex feelings about this, having married a guy (possibly my husband has Asperger's) who was a bit awkward and could never land a date because he wasn't sauve. He came across as creepy. We as women label men as creepy all the time without thinking about whether that label is truly justified. I once went to country dances every week. My friends pointed out to me the "creepy guy." I asked why he was creepy. The answer: "he just is." "He just is." In other words, we feel uncomfortable around him, therefore he must be a creeper. Based on no words. Based on no groping attempts. No nothing. Just mannerisms, nothing else. That guy is doomed before he has even begun. For what could be no reason--a too-wide smile, wearing sandals with socks, or having a funny laugh. My husband lived his entire dating life seeing guys who he felt like were absolute idiots and jerks date the girls he liked. He couldn't even get one date with those girls because what they said they wanted, "a good guy" was (as my husband saw it) not actually what they wanted. They wanted "a smooth guy," and it's not always the same thing. Sometimes it is, for sure. Not always though. I wanted a smooth guy, I admit it. But I also wanted an honest guy, and partially because he wasn't the smooth guy, he was the honest guy. After watching somebody "smoother" continually waltz in and take the girls they like, can you blame guys for developing a bit of complex? Does it make them unattractive to have this "nice guy" issue going? Yes. Do I understand it? I kind of do. Why should some guys have to give themselves a complete overhaul to even be glanced at? Assuming that those behaviors are simple or easy enough to change that it can be done? What if a guy has a limp? A congenital defect of some kind? A speech problem? And he can't get a date no matter how hard he tries to give himself a guy makeover? I know, for my husband, he tried getting advice but the advice never worked. He just couldn't carry it off. It isn't always as easy as just going out and buying a new suit, you know. Sometimes you're just different, and it hurts. You just can't seem to "mesh" well although you're a decent enough person. And that's the fact of the matter. The nice guy complex is just a way to cover up the more difficult question, "Is something inherently wrong with me? Why can't I receive the love and attention that I so badly want from other people?" Sorry for the essay. It's over.

[@KristofDE]

Oh god, I used to be one of those a long time ago. Glad I had the right people around me to slowly but surely lift me up from "niceguyness" o_o

[@1wordtroll]

No worries Jill. Anon recently met Q and they are getting on fabulously.

[@ChaosRayZero]

**Mental image of John de Lancie intensifies**

[@SHADOW1414]

Every 'nice guy' I've known has at some point told me that he's a nice guy and if you have to tell people you're nice, you're probably not.

[@nigeldepledge3790]

Well done, Jill. You got through that entire video without saying any of the words I was thinking about your persistent correspondent. I have Asperger's, and one of the ways it affects me is that I have difficulty with the nuances of context-dependent rules. And even I know that I'm not entitled to anything from another person. Unless it involves a contract. I don't even know if you'll read the whole of this comment.

[@alejandrogangotena9033]

you won me over after "unrequited love happens to everyone"

[@patmacken5130]

Having been both rejected and not and having been rejected for what seems like being “the nice guy” I can only say where some of that attitude comes from. Not from a sense of entitlement. I had been rejected by women for clearly better men than me. But when you see somebody reject you for somebody who seems to treat the person you were interested in like dirt yet you were not good enough. That is when you find yourself feeling/thinking that way. Like most thing none of it is ever quite so simple as “ be interesting” or “be confident” or “be friends first” or any of the rest.

[@emmasilver2332]

Things you should expect people to do for you (provided that you're not an absolute dirtbag): treat you with respect. That's it. Of course, exceptions exist (especially when it comes to children; children shouldn't have to worry about where their next meal is coming from or where they'll be able to rest their heads at night), but that's the general rule. If I pay money to eat at a restaurant, I can and should expect that I will actually get my food, that it won't give me food poisoning, and that the employees I talk to treat me like an actual human being. What I shouldn't expect is to be charged less because I couldn't finish my food, or to be exempt from certain rules and regulations because I'm mentally unstable, or that my food will be brought to me before the people who have already been waiting for half an hour. I should expect to feel safe, but I shouldn't expect special treatment. If I go out on a date with someone, I can and should expect that they will be respectful of my personal boundaries, that they won't treat me like an object, and that they will take the time to actually get to know me instead of being on their phone all the time. I shouldn't expect a goodnight kiss, nor should I expect them to put my own pleasure above their personal boundaries. I shouldn't expect them to pay 100 dollars for dinner. I shouldn't expect them to shower me with gifts and affection. I shouldn't expect them to break curfew just so I can spend more time with them. I shouldn't expect them to marry me, become my boyfriend, or even agree to a second date. If I pay for an Uber, I can and should expect that I will get to my destination safely (provided that I wear my seatbelt), and that the driver won't call me names or mistreat me in any way. I shouldn't expect them to get me there at a specific time, that they'll want to be my friend, or that they'll be talkative with me. In every situation, there are things to be expected should or shouldn't happen, things that would be nice if they did or didn't happen, and things that are just plain out of the ordinary. And depending on the scenario, those things may be different. A child should expect their parent(s) to provide for their basic physical and emotional needs, but shouldn't expect them to give them whatever they want. But as you grow older, more and more of that responsibility falls on your own shoulders. I'm 20 years old, and still live with my parents. They don't have to let me stay. They don't have to buy my special gluten free food. They don't have to pay my medical bills. They don't have to drive me places. They just choose to do all those things for me because they love me, and they know that I'm not yet financially stable enough to survive on my own. The only thing I should expect from them is that they'll treat me like an actual person. All the other stuff is just a bonus. It's just extra things that they're choosing to do for me.

[@BOLANAREDE321]

How did "nice guy" come to have this definition? Seems a bit messed up to me.

[@Inaxces]

If I may...I am in no way a professional at dating but i have suffered from the "nice guy" label and when a friend pointed it out i expressed I am NOT nice i am kind there is a HUGE difference. when you become the "kind guy" at least you stand for something you have a set of boundaries for yourself and others...Thank you Dad

[@Baum_Mann]

the "OG-nice guy" is "you are nice, but..."-guy brutally oversimpified it´s what you get for insulting him by trying to prevent "hurting his feelings"

[@JackReynolds-w7g]

To edchew niceness is simply inviting destructive behavior.

[@tomworks8004]

I love what you do and what you say! Kindness is the key. We're losing the concept of being kind and decent and polite. Unfortunately my country, USA, is one of the worst offenders.

[@fatboy7609]

How not to be a nice guy/girl. Ahem... Do (or don't do) nice things without the anticipation of direct reciprocation, especially romantic reciprocation. It's kind of that simple. Oh, incidentally, if you are a nice guy/girl, and get taken advantage of, very few people will be sympathetic.

[@Fahrenheit4051]

Your solutions were generally good. Quid pro quo really isn't a good foundation for a romantic relationship. And you're right - acting civilly doesn't entitle one to anything other than people being civil back. But, it still sucks to see people who DO shout out of car windows, slam doors in peoples' faces, and are racists or general scumbags still "killing it". And displaying frustration with consistently not getting things is not the same as feeling entitled to things. I don't consider myself a "nice guy". I have enough introspection to know I'm not easy to get along with. I understand why someone with better looks, more money, and nicer things than me gets more attention than I do - even if they're a total prick. But it still sucks, and I can empathize with people who feel this way.

[@numeristatech]

Been there, been that nice guy. My lessons: - Be nice, even if karma doesn’t exist, you don’t need to be a c**t. - Karma doesn’t exist as noted above. Just being nice does not mean that the universe owes you something or someone. The universe doesn’t owe you s**t. Also the universe does not care much about you, so don’t fear what others think about you: they probably don’t think anything special to start with. Go out and dance if you are an introvert. Nobody will think anything more or less of you. Really, nobody cares so don’t be scared how other people view you and think of you - they don’t! - STOP OVERTHINKING EVERYTHING!!! - If you want to ask someone on a date, do it. If you get turned down, it’s not the end of the world and the whole universe won’t point and laugh. Lighten up. Somehow caring less is actually caring more. - Widen your horizons. See more people. Don’t focus on someone who seems perfect for you: they probably are not and there are 7 billion other people in the world - your co-worker you work 10 hours a day with probably isn’t the one. - Lend a listening ear to people but don’t get too focussed in helping out - beware of transference where you end up projecting your feeling on the person you are listening to or running the risk of misaligned expectations. - You can’t help everyone. And nobody owes you anything for helping. - If you are feeling depressed in any way by your current life situation, go and talk to a professional: it could literally change your life for the better. Yep I’m still an introvert and I’d love karma to work, but I don’t care any more. I can be nice, if I want to help out for any reasons, I’ll do it because I like doing so, and I don’t care what others think about me, and it’s been a huge weight off my shoulders. Also, some pointers to help me understand why I was acting the way I was was eye opening and has helped me turn my life around. Your personal mileage may vary. Peace out everyone!

[@owlsilverfeather]

Ugh, Nice Guys. Being turned down/seen only as a friend when you have other affections for that person sucks. Absolutely can suck. But you know what sucks more? Losing that person as a friend because you feel entitled due to "time put in" or whatever (FRIENDSHIP AND DATING IS NOT A JOB) and going on to treat them like crap. Sometimes if you get turned down and your heart gets broken, you'll need a little distance for awhile, depending...but remember why you liked this person in the first place. Because they're probably awesome. And they might think you're awesome too. And...isn't that kind of the awesome part of friendship in the first place?

[@williamfletcher5146]

As a man when I get friendzoned it isn't about the money/time/effort aspect. It is the feeling of being rejected that cuts me down and then I either have to remove the person from my life and just find a new person to befriend/avoid/whatever. But it isn't about time/money/effort. I wouldn't want to bribe somebody to like me romantically. But it hurts to not be good enough for somebody in some way... and I don't know how these two issues get conflated. So I agree with the video. I just think men need to face up to the fact that it is the cutting feeling of rejection that hurts and just cut ties with the person if they can't endure that sort of situation. But men are stuck in scarcity sometimes and think they have like one option only.

[@DaWelshman]

@@84C4 perfect

[@dorkangel1076]

@@84C4 You basically just described my life through my 20's. (I'm a lot older and a little wiser now). Sometimes you have to walk away. If the other person cares about you they should understand why and realise it's no more personal than them not fancying you.

[@cactustactics]

@@84C4 but whatever the personal reasoning behind it, the fact is that you're friends, and breaking that off to protect yourself is hurting the other person. That's nothing to do with entitlement - if you develop a personal bond with someone and sever it (especially because of how they do or don't feel) that's a huge deal. If you're truly friends, you'll recognise that - and if you still have to leave them, you'll at least realise what you're doing to them, and how they're not to blame for any of it. It sucks, but that's the reality of it, and why it's a big risk to confess this kind of thing to a friend instead of trying to find someone else If you can easily hurt that other person though, someone who was supposed to be your friend, and call their pain at losing a good friend "entitlement", then that does start to sound like you weren't really friends at all, and you only pursued that relationship because you expected something else out of it. That's the Nice Guy attitude right there I'm not saying that's what you're describing (especially if you just developed feelings for someone who was already your friend) but it's skirting pretty close to it. And that's what the OP was getting at I think - if they're actually your friend, how do they find it so easy to justify walking away and hurting you?

[@bellevoor]

Cue Ryan Higa's "Nice Guys finish last that's why I treat you like trash. It's not really what I want to do"

[@petervitkov361]

Some food for thought, this is gonna be a long one: As easy as it may be to mock these people, we have to acknowledge that members among both sexes are to blame - we can't go "men bad, women good" or vice-versa. The notions that "women like jerks" or that "a man must pursue a woman, even after she rejects him, in hopes of winning her over through sheer perseverance"...didn't pop out of thin air and they weren't just thought up by a man one day as a fantasy of some kind. Some women have greatly attributed to these false notions - not just in fiction, but in real life. I'll start with the former: Just like there are men who watch movies where the guy chases after a girl who's clearly not interested in him and has said "No" to him more than once, by the end of the film, he's impressed her with his decency and now all of the sudden, she wants him, there are women who watch movies where a woman chases after a male who's obviously a toxic, manipulative person (evil wouldn't not be too strong of a term to describe him) and through the "power of love", he becomes a decent fella who loves and cherishes her with all his heart, for "saving him from himself". I've seen this happen - I've been on the receiving end of it. Women, WAY OUT of my league, have been interested in me for a serious relationship, and I've legitimately asked myself "WHY?! Are you stupid, lady, what the actual FUСК do you think you've seen in me that makes you think I'm a worthy candidate for a potential partner?!" I'm not ugly, but I'm nothing to write home about in terms of looks, I'm definitely not what I'd define as a good person, I'm an absolute weirdo (my manners are something between those of an over-the-top video game villain and Mr. Bean's) whose hobbies, while I myself find them interesting, are often times considered more boring than collecting stamps, and to top it all off - I have health issues which are INCREDIBLY off-putting. But they want me. Why? Because they wanna FIX me, they want me to be their little "project". Why am I saying all of this? There are myths and false beliefs among not only men, but women too, and they have to be unlearned, because they turn into self-destructive behaviors. An entitled "nice guy" who says women are bad people for not wanting to sleep with him will wallow in frustration and self-pity, he'll jerk off to porn and vent his anger online, but the ones who acknowledge something about their behavior isn't working and intend on changing it, BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY, until it results in them "getting laid", are the ones who are more dangerous, in my opinion. I've seen this happen, too. You have a "nice guy" who wants to "win women over" by "being nice", he's unsuccessful, so he "changes the tactic". He gets pumped full of steroids, he attempts to grow a huge beard in order to hide his imperfections (not that I have anything against beards, it's just...they can be used as "the male equivalent of makeup"), he gets into hobbies that he perceives as being "interesting to women" (because just having A hobby doesn't cut it. I don't think there are thousands of women who get wet upon learning a guy collects stamps) - football, soccer, boxing, bodybuilding, jock stuff...and soon enough, you've got a bunch of immature bitсhеs who've watched/read too much 50 Shades and believe it's "a how-to guide on finding the love of your life" flocking to that absolute POSER, who more often than not labels himself an "alpha". Now he's got the life experience why "treating women like dirt wields results", and he's more than happy to share it with his fellow males. These are the kind of guys who say that ALL women are, deep down, attracted to men who abuse them and are backstabbing gold-diggers by nature. These are the "red pill preachers", those who view themselves as "The Morpheus-es inside the Matrix" who go around, saying "If you wanna get laid, be an asshole". And other men, especially some "nice guys", follow that advice. And sadly, often times, it does result in a spike of female attention towards them. Then there are the "nice guys", who, for whatever reason, DON'T follow that advice, so these women and men become the living, breathing example as to why their love/sex life is a mess, which results in misogynistic sentiments, built upon feelings of entitlement. I've never had that problem myself, because my parents were very strict and it was at a very young age that I was forced to learn that the world, believe it or not, does not revolve around me, and also because I am not interested in dating, as far as relationships are concerned. I like women, I like having sex with attractive women, and that's it. I get laid rarely, because even though, not to brag, there's a substantial number of women who are interested in me...what THEY want and what I want are two very different things, hence...we're incompatible, so I've become accustomed to a woman walking away because we want different things - she wants a relationship, I want sex, and my mother didn't raise no sociopath, so no, I'm not gonna lie to that I have feelings for her just to get in her pants. That's too low even for me. Few people want what I want - a "friends-with-benefits" sort of deal, but they do exist, and when I find them, and we're both interested in each other, nice stuff happens. That's the mentality I have - "there's always more people". Long story short, don't be entitled. If your interest, be it romantic or purely sexual, is unreciprocated, either because that person doesn't see you as worthy or because they want from you more than you can give, don't fret about it - you do you, and eventually, you'll find someone else. Or you won't, I don't know, a Lilly Evans and Severus Snape situation might occur, but at least you won't be hung up on that person, waiting for the impossible to happen. Also, feelings are involuntary - if you're truly a decent fella and you catch feelings for a girl who loves dating projects and not partners...you don't want that girl and you're better off without her. Trust me. Don't "chase" people - they're human beings, not trophies. If it doesn't work, don't force it, no matter how much you fancy that person. And finally, while it may sound like a stupid cliché, it is true - a person who truly loves someone realizes the uncomfortable truth that they might not be the person who makes them happy, so they should let them go. Wanting to be with someone for the sake of "reaching that goal" means that your feelings are not genuine.

[@dansmith3vdhrj]

From years later..Very nice (heh) PSA, well done!

[@leejay1936]

Self-proclaimed nice guys are usually the opposite of nice. They're the ones who claim all women want jerks, while they personally disprove that claim.

[@AvitalShtap]

LOL, this comment got a chuckle out of me, I love the phrasing.

[@monsoongirlnyc]

You’re always wonderfully smart and funny, but this is even better than usual. Ty so much. It’s always lovely to come to your channel after a ridiculous day.

[@itisi7027]

i just found your channel thanks to your derry girls video and now i'm binging through your videos and... i really really like what you do and how you think, you're really awesome and thanks for your work!

[@flybeep1661]

Take a no as a no...only... for some people it's always a no and never ever a yes. And with that not even a chance of a yes and the best and closest to have ever had was a yes which was a lie. So excuse me to have expectations for not being an asshole at all. And then you have people who are utterly surprised when people snap after decades like that. Expect fairness, expect equal chance....nope you should not expect because you're entitled then and that's not good. And this is mostly said by people have had a yes multiple times.

[@kaeljae]

That was informative. And a little scary that you had to make a video because of all these emails.

[@Bustermachine]

It can be especially tricky if you were poorly socialized at a younger age for any number of reasons. There are ways I behaved when I went off to college that, looking back now, I kick myself for, for instance. But the cool thing is . . . you can learn from those mistakes . . . so you can kick yourself!

[@prince_nocturne]

How to be a nice guy and not a "nice guy." Respect others. Simple as that. Respect other's opinions, privacy, wants, needs, and don't make assumptions. Or at least make an effort. I like to think I'm a decent sort of person most of the time. I try and do nice things for or with my friends. What do I expect in return? Not a whole lot. Just for them to be nice back, to tell me if they're not up to doing something such as hanging out or playing a game or just generally chatting that day. To which I say that I hope they feel better soon, or good luck on whatever's going on at the time, or just a general 'okay, I'll catch you next time.' It depends on context.

[@tarmairon431]

"People like and are attracted to interesting persons." Well, yes maybe, but the vast majority of people are ordinary and not very interesting and they still can find partners. So, a lot of people are also attracted to not especially interesting persons.

[@snowangelnc]

It's ok, we're not talking "the most interesting man in the world" level. Just enough that someone enjoys your company. Here's an example. In college there was a guy that liked me. The thng is, he was a nice guy and was very eager to please. The problem with that was whenever we had a conversation he wouldn't risk giving his opinion on anything; he'd ask what I thought and just agree with whatever that was. Once we were talking about something simple, a movie that had had mixed reviews or something like that, and I decided for once I'd like to get an original thought out of him. He kept asking me what I thought first; so I just said "Well, there's....." and I gave one side of the argument. He agreed to that wholeheartedly. I continued with "....on the other hand, there's also....." and gave the exact oppostie side. He agreed with that one just as enthusiastically. Now, I don't want to be around an arrogant jerk that can't handle being contradicted, but I do want someone with a brain of their own. Carrying the whole conversatiion every time got old really fast. I was bored out of my mind.

[@sobermind9885]

Different people can have different opinions. Something that is not interesting for you can be for someone else, even if you don't particularly understand why.

[@AnnekeOosterink]

Interesting does not mean extraordinary/famous/the best at X ever. It just mean you have something (anything) that another person may find interesting. For some that's going to be a hobby, others a political opinion, others will like a well read/educated person, and for yet another just both loving dogs can be the interesting thing. Ordinary and interesting are not mutually exclusive.

[@hailexiao2770]

Interesting to them, not necessarily to you.

[@cactustactics]

If you like, you can think of it like "who this person IS, beyond being nice and doing things for me". Who are they? What are they into? What are their beliefs as an individual? What can we talk about? Are they fun and interesting to be around? That's all totally subjective, but the point about Nice Guys is they tend to think that Being Nice is what produces results, that that's all it takes and anything else is just secondary. In a lot of ways that backfires, because a lot of people ~don't~ want a partner who's sort of an obsequious servant, they want an equal, and that unbalanced relationship is uncomfortable. "Be interesting" is more about filling that hole and being a more rounded person that the other can actually connect to

[@martianpudding9522]

I do think it's probably also not a good mindset to have hobbies and do things with the express goal of being interesting to a date. Better would be to focus on creating the lifestyle you want for your own sake, and then finding someone who enjoys that same lifestyle. It may sound similar but for example don't pick up a hobby of skydiving because you think that would sound attractive, when what you actually want to do is run a DnD campaign.

[@gildardorivasvalles6368]

I wish someone had uttered the advice you give many, many years ago. I arrived at essentially the same thing (eventually). I won't deny I was close to that kind of "nice guy" (more or less), but after a time I realized that that type of "nice guy" is (most of the time) a jerk who hasn't gotten a chance to blossom, so to speak. I would add one thing to what you said, though: what most "nice guys" (and the guys who really are nice but have no clue) don't realize is that the attractive "jerks" are attractive (to a large extent) because of their self-confidence (not to be confused with cockiness, which is a totally different thing). It's kind of a Zen thing -- confidence, that is, in that you either have ir or don't. And what you say goes a long way towards becoming confident. Doing interesting things, makes you interesting, and it also makes you more self-confident. Sure, it may be tentative at first, but as time goes by it becomes ingrained. More or less, that is, as I can't say I don't have a tinge of self-doubt when in front of a woman I find attractive, but hey, you don't know if the parachute won't work until you open it mid-air, so BANZAI!!!

[@TheGPFilmMaker]

Oh wow that "heck yes" idea is fantastic! I'm implementing it right away!! I'm a married woman so not in relation to "Nice Guy" issues...just in relation to being a happier and more interesting person!

[@Holagrimola]

this might not be one of your most viewed videos, but gosh darn it's an important one!

[@bryceehret8149]

Best advice I've seen I wish I found this years ago. I've had alot of success when I realized I had to just work on my social skills and be forward with my intentions. I agree that hobbies are so important. I quite gaming and to get more into boxing, punk music and, rock climbing as well as left leaning politics...my dating has thanked me for it!

[@AnastasiaCooper]

the "heck yes" attitude can be applied for anybody - I'm currently doing crafts while being on a Jill marathon - so at the end of this afternoon, I not only learned new things, but also created something I like myself :D

[@mbryson2899]

I wish I could like this video more than once. SOLID advice, great observations!

[@Qwentar]

Thank you for that explanation. It's given me food for thought.

[@derekhughes347]

I completely understand that and feel many people of both genders go though the “nice person” mindset at some point in their lives, but what happens when someone who truly is good gets constantly mistreated by people who truly don’t want to believe that the individual is as nice as they are? Like what if you spend your time trying to do as much good as you can but get hurt by people who either want to believe you aren’t that good or take advantage of you for being that good? Wouldn’t you want to give up past a certain point and I don’t mean give up as in stop trying to be good I mean give up trying to do anything in general when the whole world wants to believe you are not as good as you try to be because they either don’t think it doesn’t exist, set you to an impossible standard or don’t want to believe you are in particular based on lies they heard about you from another or the because of the terrible experiences you’ve been put through in your lifetime they believe that an individual with such trauma couldn’t possibly be good or even worse some people play the “they deserve it” game because they want to justify the mistreatment one way or another, wouldn’t it also become harder to truly be yourself the more you get hurt as well? There are so many ways this idea can be turned on it’s head that it’s near impossible to for some to truly understand who is in the right and who is in the wrong. I do agree with you on the part that you shouldn’t expect anything for being a truly nice person but they also shouldn’t be pushed into something you don’t want or don’t want to be a part of just for being to nice to say no to people who they don’t realize want more out of them than is completely reasonable to ask of any one person. There’s so much to talk about here that I feel as though the conversation could go on forever and we would never actually come to a conclusion about it because it’s so circumstantial.

[@samuelbrock]

Ok, is no one going to talk about the impeccable green screen editing Jill has going on here?? Even around her EARINGS it's crisp and clear!!

[@id3794]

It becomes a real problem when “getting a relationship” ends up being far too tied to self-esteem. That means if someone rejects them, they end up taking it too personally, as if it’s a slight on them as a person rather than just a general lack of interest/compatibility for whatever reason. They may then end up projecting this onto the other person or make these feelings of worthlessness the other person’s problem/responsibility, and end up blaming them. Doesn’t help that in media, getting a romantic partner is too often portrayed as a reward. Basically, there’s a difference between wanting to be with someone because you like being with them, and being with someone because you think that will fix your issues when you actually need therapy and to work on yourself.

[@geoffwaldon]

For the genuinely nice guy who truly feels thst he us always finishing last remember these points: 1. By your reasoning, the nice girls are also finishing last. 2. To come ladt means you've run the whole race - a lot of people aren't even 8n the race at sll , or they drop out early because it is too hard. 3. When you do finally meet that special someone, wouldnt you prefer someone who was willing to stick around until the end?

[@Leo99929]

We can answer why people don't like "nice guys" with the answer to why people don't like "Bad boys", but often choose to enter romantic situations and then regret it. And why people like "Good guys": "Bad boys" do not consider other peoples happiness or well being, quite often because their motivations are purely selfish. Think Hedonism. They know what they want and they are willing to do what is necessary to get it, regardless of what other people think about it or what effect it will have on other people. Bad guys just don't value the experience of others. Narcissism is a common trait. This can be attractive because they have a lot of fun and you can too, if your happiness does not detract from theirs. They can be an ally against your perceived oppressor. The problem inevitably comes when you need them to be a team player and do something not in their own self interest but for the good of the group. This is when the "Bad boy" differentiates themselves by only doing what makes them happy. They don't care about you or your happiness at all. In this way they are seen as "leaders" as they present a direction and ask others to follow if they are needed to achieve his goals. They are often casually dismissive of others reservations, as they don't care about other peoples experiences, only their own. They will also leave you stranded at the drop of a hat when you are no longer useful. "Good guys" know what THEY like, what THEY believe in, and they have the motivation to go and strive towards that. A common trait is the maturity to acknowledge that they will find it hard to be fulfilled and happy if that comes at the cost of others fulfillment and happiness. They will not bring others down to build themselves up, but they also won't sacrifice themselves to help people who won't help themselves, or who have ignoble ambitions. A good guy has plans, ambitions, goals, aspirations, that came from within them, and not from their friends or romantic partners goals, desires, or ambitions. They have thought deeply about what THEY believe in, and work towards "the greater good". They will help you when you need help, but will prioritise those who need the help the most, so your selfish desires for attention will almost always go unanswered. And if they persist then they are likely to cut you out of their lives as a toxic one sided relationship which is taking up room that they could be using otherwise to maximize their positive impact on the world. This is an example of how "Good guys" won't help you do something that is ultimately not in your best interests. In this way they are seen as "leaders" as they present a direction and encourage others to follow. They have thought about it robustly enough that they encourage debate on if it's the right thing to do, as they want to be sure that they are doing the right thing. "Nice guys", conversely, do what ever they think the other person will appreciate most, regardless of if it's good for them or others. They are followers, and that makes them infuriating, because they need constant guidance on what is right, what is wrong, what is desirable, and what isn't. They cannot be trusted to do what you would want without supervision, because they are trying to guess what you would want, rather than work out what is the right thing to do autonomously. They also are often motivated to do what they think others want in the naive misunderstanding that they think that will mean the other person will reciprocate. The reality is that people help "bad boys" and "good guys" because of common goals, not out of a sense of debt, entitlement, or obligation. And building relationships on a basis of "tit for tat" will lead to petty problems down the line. People might date a "Nice guy" to take advantage of them, because they know they can get what ever they want, so "Nice guys" often end up in unhealthy relationships where they are abused to do what ever their partner wants with no regard for the well-being of the "nice guy". The nice guy would benefit most from not being sucked into that dynamic where they are only giving and never receiving. But this would also make them no a paragonic "nice guy" and instead move them on the spectrum towards "good guy" or "bad boy", depending on their intentions. This trichotomy spans the integrity spectrum also as "good guys" act with unwavering integrity, "Bad Guys" are willing to lie, cheat, and steal, to achieve their goals, but will also straight up tell you they are going to screw you over if there is nothing you can do about it, and "Nice guys" have no integrity what so ever and blindly do what they think they other person wants most. Integrity is attractive because you can be depended upon. You are demonstrating trustworthiness and reliability.

[@jirivorobel942]

And here I am, watching this at a couple of minutes to 1:30 AM, because for some reason the algorithm recommended this to me. And, while I haven't learned anything new, I've enjoyed your take on this a lot. Heck yes!

[@evilspacech1cken]

Two things: 1. This video is exceptionally useful and much appreciated. 2. “If you want to become someone who people are actually interested in spending time with, become the sort of person *you* would be interested in spending time with” absolute GOLD advice right there, spot on.

[@pheenix42]

Sadly, when did 'nice guy' become a negative idea?

[@Torquemadia]

There is a difference between doing something nice, because it's nice, and doing something nice because you expect some sort of reward for it.

[@primus1d]

Nice guys may finish last, but last guys never finish nice... Quote from Saul Alinsky... NOT a nice guy.

[@allanlank]

HECK YES! (I'm going to write that down and frame it. Thanks)

[@totalnewb123]

I’m happy to grow up with black sisters because it helped me learn how to approach women. “If you can’t come correct, don’t come at all” sisters. Thanks.

[@bryandonahue8302]

Can we just take a sec, and point out the stellar background editing... Great video!

[@EthanKristopherHartley]

"Gifts shouldn't come with strings" - Jill Bearup, last place present wrapping championship contestant 2019, 2020, 2021. 😁🎁

[@Valdagast]

I think this is something deeply buried in the human psyche. We seem to have an instinct for reciprocity - I'll scratch your back and you'll scratch mine. That's why skilled sellers start their bids a little too high - by "giving in" (lowering their price) they activate your social instincts and it's easier to get you to agree to raise your price. The Hare Krishna got a lot of donations by handing out (dirt-cheap) flowers at airports - that's using the same instinct. So this "I bought you dinner, you owe me something" may not be rational or reasonable, but it is understandable. Doesn't make it right, though.

[@ebuzzmiller34]

Isn't this the same kind of argument 'homosexuality is deviant' types use when they say biology made us to want to reproduce so heterosexuality is normative?

[@Valdagast]

Does it matter? The important thing is if it's true. Reciprocity is as good a candidate for a natural instinct you can find. It is a so-called human universal (it appears in all cultures we know about). It is ubiquitous in social species in the human kingdom. It comes out naturally in computer simulations in building and maintaining social networks. Furthermore, I'm not arguing that this instinct (if it is one) is always a good thing. I think it's a good thing in general, I don't think human societies would function without it, but this is clearly a case where it produces wonky results. By the way, if you want to know everything about reciprocity worth knowing I recommend watching the first scene of _the Godfather_ . It is a brilliant piece of psychology.

[@jayp.7197]

The intro to this video is a wonderful example of why people struggle to ask for help improving.

[@96unique2]

A couple other practical points: hygiene is important, please take care of it; don’t wear fedoras on the regular ; that sense of entitlement is very easy to transmit in a short period of time , aka please be cognizant of the time and place of your first impression.

[@JONQPiD]

Like a whipping foil... such surgical precision. It just went deeper and deeper. 😶😯😮😲. Well done.

[@kayq3231]

Nice (kind) is the bare minimum. Everyone should be nice (kind)

[@rsacchi100]

Good points. There is one angle though. It's possible the person wonders why their friend is so successful in finding dates and wonders how come, despite making the same "moves", they have zero success. It's like watching someone negotiate an obsticle course with easy then when attempting the course find it a major struggle. In both cases the answer probably varies depending on the person.

[@bearowl4101]

Great video! I think it’s also important to mention that the idea many so-called ‘nice guys’ have that all women like jerks is so stupid because it dehumanises women. Women are complex human beings with their own wants and desires. They’re attracted to different people so the idea that ‘all girls like x’ is just unrealistic. The internet rule that everything has a fetish for it with no exceptions does not just apply to men. Sure, some women like powerful, charismatic guys who turn out to be jerks but others have different tastes, and we probably shouldn’t judge women for their tastes in men (or anybody) either way (and if the person they’re dating turns out to be a jerk, people can try to comfort them and help them get out of the relationship safely but that’s not the same as judging).

[@quietone610]

Y'ever hear the phrase "fail faster"? This came to mind because "Nice Guys" try their absolute best not to get to 'fail', where in this case, it's their Crush taking a hike (or a powder). Lay out who you are, what you prefer to do for fun, and your intentions for a meet-up later in as direct a manner as is proper and polite. Fail faster. Do not waffle--do not hide your intent behind innuendos, do not shuffle your music preferences (for example) to the side for the sake of appearing 'cool' (she'll know), and do not wait to appear interested. Fail faster. At one point, I read that pickup artists use the bluntest lines because anyone that says yes is an instant-win--that person knows exactly what's in store and how soon and is ready to go. Nine failures in a night is nothing--nineteen, 29, however many-- if one says yes. Fail faster.