How One Player Changed Marth Forever

[@ChalerYT]

I keep getting comments that this aged poorly but I just need to let you know that I will win in the long run

[@brooksyang5834]

was abt to say man pulled out ice climbers lmao

[@thuperr2017]

i really think his ics is a super one trick pony that wont stick around, jmook/leffen are just demonic level sheiks in the marth mu

[@kirbmon64-mj5pl]

It was only against leffen right​@@brooksyang5834

[@maxlimit9129]

if I had a nickel for every dominant red Marth whose tag was just their first name, I'd have two nickels

[@unstablepc5913]

Wait... That's his real name? Crimson Blur???

[@Gabriel64468]

​@@unstablepc5913 No that's actually just Crimson when he came to his first tournament he had chosen "Blur" as his tag, but when asked for his name he said "Crimson uhhh Blur" so the TO put Crimson Blur down.

[@zog6940]

Which isn't a lot. But it's weird that it's happened twice

[@TheSleepKing]

Never thought about it like that. Ken and Zain, damn

[@moshadj]

Sephiroth?

[@jshcalebchang]

It's interesting that both Axe's and Hbox's well known loss to Marth prior to Zain was PPU. Definitely an underrated singles player

[@cjkmelee]

He was definitely known more when he played. For marth players he really was the proto-zain pushing tech skill and advanced techs (shield stopping was a big thing he pioneered) Its really only after loong inactivity that newer players don't know about PPU

[@Saskaruto16]

He was always known during the era he played. He was always considered super technical and innovative, but his his neutral and adaptation in the longer games always had him losing to the gods except for rare occasions where they couldn't deal with some new tech he implemented in his game. However once they adapted to it, business went back to the usual unfortunately for him. M2K and PP were the only ones with the strong enough neutral to actually win sets against the gods with Marth, and neither of them wanted to use Marth for his bad matchups when they both played other characters. Even Pewpewu eventually picked up a fox secondary for some matchups, other Marths picked up a Sheik, etc, because why play an even or losing matchup when you can play a winning one with your secondary/co-main? They were all also playing on Vanilla, which is significantly worse for Marth than anyone else because of the dashback and more inconsistent pivots which he needs in his gameplan especially in these non-spacie matchups.

[@orionwebster8727]

@@Saskaruto16 Yeah people forget how big a difference UCF makes and controller mods and whatnot. Plus at top level in anything doing something statistically worse doesn't make much sense long term.

[@atari_hmb]

@@cjkmelee Yeah like how Larry Lurr was the Fox to do it, then came Light who pushed the Fox meta for Ultimate and Smash 4. PPU is still a hall of famer for real

[@koth_harvest_final]

@@cjkmelee seeing people not know how dominant a force he was in norcal is crazy, he was my favorite player to watch for years and years. i miss u kevin.

[@Saskaruto16]

One major factor that never really gets brought up here is Vanilla vs UCF; the fact it buffed Marth the most by far, and that those buffs specifically helped him in these non-spacie matchups. Zain is amazing no doubt, but the entire reason M2K and PPMD didn't play Marth in those matchups was that in a game with inconsistent dashbacks and pivots, you can't play the way Zain does, especially against those characters, without incredible risk. M2K already had his Fox/Sheik, PP had his Falco. So unless they felt Marth had a better matchup they didn't use him as he just wasn't worth the risk of inconsistency losing them a games/sets when they had options that didn't get hurt by bad hardware to even close to the same degree in these matchups.

[@eddiestilll]

i'ma pika main who obv was inspired by axe but i couldn't help but cheer for zain at shine 2022 when he finally beat axe because it was so inspirational to see a solo marth main finally overcome their char's biggest demon 🙂

[@curtiss9116]

bro i was like the only person in that venue cheering for zain vs axe lmao. All my friends kept giving my absolutely devilish looks

[@Demopugz]

Well you can’t really blame them, Walgreens drake all the way!

[@jrodd13]

Never realized how determined Zain was, this video made me respect him all the more

[@FirePuff12]

I've been waiting for a good content creator to talk about this for SO LONG! Tysm. It literally can't be understated how much Zain has done for Marth. And you put it perfectly

[@Mach7tequila]

I used to go to the same locals as Zain at Virginia Tech and the news of him beating plup at bh6 blew our fucking minds. From sweeping our locals and being sponsored by a now out of business local gaming lounge to being number one feels unreal

[@KIRB881]

When I hear Marth, I immediately think Zain or Ken.

[@JustAaron94]

Really glad to see PewPewU getting the credit he deserves. He actually brought a lot of Marth's newer tech to the spotlight before Zain did, but Zain was the first to perfect it as his current level.

[@loferium4580]

your videos make melee look beautiful to someone who knows nothing about it

[@gsubs2008]

As a huge Zain fan I am not exaggerating when I say this is one of the best videos I've ever seen! Gonna binge your other videos and looking forward to future ones!

[@EDEdDNEdDYFaN]

This is your best video yet man. Great narrative and clean/easy stats to back it all up. Good shit

[@sinfinite7516]

Great vid, made me realize even more how legendary Zain is

[@saspa2366]

And now it’s aMSa that Zain needs to adapt around

[@bossfrg]

I think the dash grab aspect of the hbox matchup really oversells zain. That was very very established tech at the time that every Marth had been using for years.

[@Willyzzy]

Been watching your videos for a while now, and your content is getting better and better, but this video is special. Well done, love what you're doing!

[@Yamulo]

lovely video. Love the positivity and loved watching zains rise in real time

[@benumbrardor8708]

Zain’s progress year by year is amazing

[@blackh4ze778]

thank you already for the first minute of the video. Idk man marth vs samus for example or also marth vs peach is sometimes really hard, but I cant say it openly cuz everyone says "marths broken haha, what you talking about. Youre not allowed to whine"

[@EZmode420]

Great video bro. Keep up this amazing research and work. It shows.

[@lankyjuggler]

Love your analyses. See you on the next one 😊

[@porknbeanz]

****ICE CLIMBERS****

[@Grannit666]

So funny that you end the video with "Zain will never pick up a secondary" right before Zain starts playing Ice Climbers.

[@ChalerYT]

Sometime you miss

[@TheBeggies95]

@@ChalerYTBut you didn’t this time ;)

[@nontoxic9960]

I love your content thank you for uploading I appreciate your hard work

[@Spyder-Marth]

I play Marth in Ultimate but this is super inspiring to watch. Seeing Zain take Marth all the way when nobody else would is exactly what I should do in Ultimate.

[@taylorbee4010]

So he plays his main like a true character specialist by studying the matchups

[@eeveewithcoffee9554]

Wait so actually Marth players always jump cancel grab and risk missing a crouching Jigglypuff? I never knew he could grab her dash or standing. That’s so weird

[@simanolastname2399]

(Competent) Marth players almost exclusively boost grab against Jigglypuff

[@loganmyall660]

@6:45 something people don't talk about enough in this matchup is that marths frame data I believe is actually better on his dash grab on start up, it's just the end frames are better on jc grab. But it doesn't matter because you're getting rested anyway, so there's really no reason to jc grab in this mu imo. At least while puff is grounded

[@megamangomon]

Ty for making this video on one of my fav players

[@lorenzoram6025]

Axe winning 69 - 0 against Marth in a decade. What a run !

[@taciprince7400]

And yesterday he beat Jmook with solo marth. My goat 🫡

[@lukus1013]

Zain picked up IC’s for Jmook lol

[@TheBeggies95]

Did he really tho? :)

[@jeyserreacts3444]

One thing about crouching puff dodging grabs is that she undulates on the ground and you have to grab her when she is high. On the low part of crouch the dash grab will miss.

[@paulcochran7007]

The conclusion of this video is funny considering recent events

[@ChalerYT]

tbf he did say the icies are on the bench for now cause they feel "dirty" so im still right for now!

[@TheBeggies95]

@@ChalerYTYou were still right since he stick to Marth to beat Jmook. I feel like he got really good in the MU. If only he learns how to beat Amsa again

[@stayontrack]

8:42 blurring out the moon is so dumb

[@Slimeypattycake]

def my favorite melee channel and not even 5k subs what

[@ApacheSmash]

I called Zain becoming the best player in the world to AADS in like 2017

[@rannynihilius8481]

Zain, Jmook, Hbox, aMSa and Axe are my favorite players in Melee because all of them broke the walls and limits of their characters with an own style and way of improvement. Hbox went through a nightmare number of Fox gauntlets literally beating them so hard in an losing MU that many were convinced that Puff should be banned while being the best player in the world against Falco and Sheik of all time. Axe's rise to the top as the first real Mid Tier threat ever since Hugs, his dominace over Marth and his road to the summit after years of heartbreak in 2019 is probally the most inspirational story in Melee- -Is what i would say if there wasn't a red yoshi bit by bit rising to the top until he turned from a Top 50ish international player into the number 2 player in the world defining Yoshi as the only top player ever in every MU and making them look doable somehow. Zain and Jmook are really parallel to each other in a lot of ways like their tourney win drought for a year only to become the best player in the world after winning Genesis and their sudden bursts onto the larger scenes when they got capeable of travelling. Zain and Jmook are both probally the most high level players we ever got till this point besides mang0, Armada and Hbox and stand as the defining players of their eras for Zain the doc kids and for Jmook Slippi. All of these players broke through barriers and are the only ones able to play on this top 10 level woth their characters turning a small roster of viable characters into this gigantic crossover of possibillities. Last Top 11 concisted out of Marth, Fox, Falco, Puff, Sheik, Peach, Icies, Pikachu and Yoshi not even counting the possibillity of Cap being robbed of the chance bc Wizzy suffered from sickness.

[@timmasters1195]

Armada is the goat mate, no shot you said Mango is a higher level than a dude who has a winning h2h vs everyone he played, including prime Mango.

[@rannynihilius8481]

@@timmasters1195 i don't remember asking let alone talking about this milked playground debate.

[@rannynihilius8481]

@@timmasters1195 i just told you to screw off with that milked out goat debate because i've never once mentioned anything about it in my comment yet you're obsessing over it as if i insulted your boyfriend.

[@timmasters1195]

@@rannynihilius8481 ah, so someone asked you to write out a long-winded mess about JMook, Yoshi and Melee before made your first comment? Hush now.

[@rannynihilius8481]

@@timmasters1195 what first comment tho? I only wrote a little love letter on why our best solo mains are my favorites to watch under a video about Zain's success as a solo main. All i see is you being a massive weirdo about a done to death argument that just doesn't matter and wastes my time even tho i did not even mention anything about the debate in this comment.

[@Zaxh01]

I still remember when zain was playing with chillindude. He’s come a long way.

[@PreacherJenkins]

Absolutely GOATED thumbnail Edit: 3:03 Chllin 🥹

[@Sigmaairav]

6:13 I know that song from Custom Robo, I loved that game

[@Roiku15]

great vid and editing

[@TheBeggies95]

You understand Marth 100% I would not be surprised if you mained him

[@miyamotomusashi6991]

Kinda insane that you didn't mention UCF. The really notable thing about pre-UCF melee here is that pivots don't work on controllers with PODE. This means that the controllers that all of the top players had to use to be able to dashback consistently were incapable of performing this tech. UCF gives controllers emulated PODE that doesn't prevent pivots, which makes pivot heavy combo routes possible where they were otherwise not. This is the main reason for the change in the puff matchup. Zain didn't invent any of the tech. The non-jc grab is a kadano tech and there had been flowcharts for those grab combos years prior to UCF. It was never implemented because dashback was more important

[@Bladieblah]

The modern era needs to be hyped up, don't bother the guy with facts that don't fit the narrative

[@youtuberobbedmeofmyname]

​@@Bladieblahbruh this is the smash community its full of nerds

[@youtuberobbedmeofmyname]

​@@Bladieblahits important though

[@Shlaf]

Great vid!!

[@Frank7489]

Haytch Box is so good he makes ppl reinvent themselves

[@Sethekk11]

6:22 I NEVER KNEW THIS

[@Winter101Storm]

rip zain, we will miss you.

[@DarrienGlasser]

Melee content in 2023 dang. I like it

[@TheyCallMeLord]

The last statement aged like fine milk

[@patheticworm]

The pmd music got me cheesing

[@dylanpenniket8648]

Zain said on stream he’s picking up an IC’s to counterpick jmook on certain stages - interesting to see how that plays out if it comes to fruition

[@beardalaxy]

I've been saying that Marth was great for Jigglypuff for years. I'm glad Zain finally turned up.

[@spage0]

S+ tier thumbnail!

[@Elianlara009]

Someone know the name of the song in 3:27 ??

[@pavandarbha9407]

Jr. Street from Mario Hoops 3on3

[@15MinuteUpload]

can i ask for the music that starts at 1:08?

[@gregm7598]

Persona 4 - specialist

[@NicolasMuñoz-p8g]

Can someone tell me wich song is being used in 4:45 ? Thanks

[@TheBjmac7]

Driftvail city - Pokemon Black & White

[@NicolasMuñoz-p8g]

@@TheBjmac7Thank you so much

[@y-hat868]

Great video but this got outdated real quick with him picking up ICs LOL

[@damana1000]

We don't know, Zain picking up ICs for Jmook might end up like Cody picking up Sheik for Zain. This means he might talk about it, but in the end still return to his main

[@TheBeggies95]

@@damana1000You guessed it right

[@ShadowD3mon25]

insane it took zain less than half the time to cement himself into melee history compared to m2k

[@colinmurphy2214]

M2k started playing 2005 with fox and was best in the world with an entirely different character by the end of 07

[@conemedemelee20]

anyone remember the name of the japanese marth main player who is actually a top player in japan that amsa talked about in an interview a few days ago? i want to see that marth in action

[@ChalerYT]

I imagine you are talking about ingen he played at scuffed world tour most recently for a big profile event

[@TheBeggies95]

Theres was Rudolph a couple years ago if Ingen was not the one

[@heldon7951]

YOOO THE PMD MUSIC

[@MuddyMoleMania]

Another certified classic

[@weebemo1]

zain WH OMEGALULed the 5 gods era

[@Lenno94]

Marni's theme, nice

[@Doxsein]

I remember tryna get good at this game in high school and seeing him use pivot technique is crazy, isn't it a frame perfect action?

[@laggyninja202]

Great video

[@NoobSauceee]

Whats the song at 5:36?

[@anonwalkerr]

what is the music at the end of the video its driving me crazy

[@KieraQ0323]

off brand serious lazerbeam

[@oscarbalfour6851]

Can’t believe this wasn’t about Branspeed smh my head

[@floatingshoppinglist5193]

marth stan

[@yeet9420]

Melee is so interesting and cool but by god I would never want to seriously touch that game

[@Meshric]

That custom robo music

[@micahbernard2532]

hes switching to ICs vs Sheik LMAO

[@randomistough0]

zain is the name of a video game character I created.

[@coyrex1250]

Not to be too nitpicky, and I may even just remember wrong, but wasn't dash grabbing vs puff already very common before Zain?

[@Nightwalker86]

I knew that Zain would beat Plup. Not because Zain is so good (he is). But because Plup is weak to Marth and jumps too much in that MU. Sheiks air-to-ground conversions are really good against Fox / Falco so I can see where that habit was formed, but Sheik has to stay grounded against Marth. Jmook and Leffen are much better at not being in the air in neutral against Marth.

[@MrKynzer]

Plup too Freestyle for his own good

[@krokoza8807]

Hard disagree. First of all (SS6)most of the time when Zain got a grab it was when Plup was on the ground. In fact Zain was going in the air at bad times more than Plup.Plup was getting grabs or stuffing Zain the way he was trying check Plup with his drift back fairs and closeup landing fairs and Plup was ready to catch him in the beginning, and in instances trying to up air plup when standing uptilt wouldve sufficed. The big thing about that set was how Zain was ready for the ways Plup was crossing center stage and him countering Plups patience with his own. Theres a decent bit in this set that could’ve swung the set either way. Also what? air to ground conversions are super good against marth too. And anyways he was trying to pop zain off the ground not catch him on the ground with aerials into something which actually he didnt a lot or really get to.

[@vladventura1928]

How did hbox do that 2:23 he glidin

[@wewiskane2691]

bro wavelanded irl

[@Abigdummy4life]

This guy took both Marth AND Roy far. Don'tTestHim

[@SecsecGoesRawr]

Song at ~9 minutes?

[@joshuaadams5295]

Ice Climbers

[@vengeance8924]

hey buddy, i don't even know who the hell " plup" is but i know zain. Plup is literally a nobody. AXE ON THE OTHER HAND IS IN FACT AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN A LEGEND.

[@deathangeleas2401]

he didn't tho, he's just aggressive marth but optimal.

[@E-Brightvoid]

Zain Train CHOO CHOO

[@simanolastname2399]

tldr; zain is pretty alright i guess

[@nothingnesslol9538]

Reminds me of hbox

[@Kawaiilolrofl]

This video would be so much better if you didn't stand in front of it all the time. You're adding the disadvantage of an in-person presentation to an online video. Good job.

[@timmasters1195]

Marth didn't struggle really. PPMD and Ken both won a lot, the issue was M2K. Same for Sheik, the character was underrated based on a dude who had choking issues.

[@TheBeggies95]

Ken won in a time where people weren’t as good. PPMD was using Falco for most MU + M2K was using Sheik for Marth’s bad MU. Really no one was developing Marth aside from PewPewU during the god era despite having two gods playing him

[@timmasters1195]

​@@TheBeggies95 cool, but my point is that M2K had the winning problem, not Marth. The character has always been top tier and tournament viable, from Ken to today. I also think Armada was a big problem for the character, and him retiring may have changed the grand finals landscape

[@TerahMohrmann]

Wow tho aged so poorly 😂😂 Great vid tho!!

[@darrelleffingeez]

Thumbnail look like will smith

[@Halibut86]

boring

[@MonaryMenos]

inb4 Donttestus KEKW

[@Kaheiyattsu221]

Congrats you're the best at a dead grandpa game

[@kyhxx]

. based. i