How Poisons work and Some Misconceptions (Path of Exile 2)

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

There should be a few videos on a Poison Concoction build in the next few days/week and a guide next week if its as good as I think it will be. Thanks for watching.

[@DravenphilupDoom]

Its looking pretty good?

[@lindleyhayes9736]

Please just post this gas arrow Pathfinder build, there are no videos for it. It's just poisonous concoction that people are posting, I don't want to run around throwing flasks like everyone else, I'm trying to sort out this specific build

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

I haven't seen a single pconc guide all I've seen is gas arrow builds.

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

@dravenphilupdoom it's pretty good so far I'm just waiting to get to t15 maps and like lvl 90 before I make a guide (I don't like to push things out just, I want it to be good and tested) Currently in t9/10 it's like I'm playing poe1.

[@m3zuss]

​@@lindleyhayes9736bruh what? Im using grobbs poison pathfinder and im blasting

[@Dewaholic]

Another big one folks are messing up is the way magnitude is actually working. Had several that think 10% increased magnitude take it from 20% to 30% of damage as poison, instead of the correct 22%. I am still doing a fair bit of testing as well, right now I am messing with bursting plague and chaining/proliferating poisons off screen in dense areas, proving very effective in most breach, expedition, ritual, etc.

[@JayBigDadyCy]

This needs some adjustment imo. As currently it takes an insane amount of investment to make a pure dot build. Maybe GGG doesn't want pure dot builds? But I can't see that being true.

[@RobertoCorsini]

@@JayBigDadyCy The soon to be deployed patch supposedly has changes to chaos damage over time things. "Improvements to Bone Spells and Chaos Damage over Time Spells in the Occult section."

[@michaelbart7014]

Yeah im running a pure poison build atm and it works but it definitely feels way more investment heavy than orher ranger builds. I dont melt bosses yet but im missing my 3rd and 4th ascendency and the big poison node on the outer rim, i think with those it will melt bosses but like the investment to get there as opposed to just a derp derp lightning ranger that melts things with 2 buttons is insane. ​@@JayBigDadyCy

[@tonhoang6115]

Hello, I have watched all of your videos about Pathfinder, and I have successfully used Poison Concoction to clear Ascend 4 and Tier 16 maps. I will share my build "Critical Poison Concoction" on the forum soon. Once again, thank you for making videos like this. I’m looking forward to your next video about the Pathfinder build.

[@lylechaussette9559]

Can you post here when u gonna make the forum post please

[@ryanlucas5504]

I have a feeling that crit is probably the most beneficial way to go unfortunately.

[@LesDoseursPOE]

When it comes to +Level Scaling, you can use poe2db to check the scaling of each and every gem. So you can actually extrapolate and see wether or not +lvl is worth for your particular skill depending on how it scales. Good video !

[@Noritoshi-r8m]

Great video. Do you have the passive tree posted somewhere? I am very lost with my pathfinder.

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

The passive tree is in the written guide in the description on the guide video on my channel.

[@Billy4321able]

It's pretty simple. The final damage of the hit (NOT INCLUDING DAMAGE TAKEN MODIFIERS) is used to calculate the initial poison magnitude. So wither, regardless of the damage type of the initial hit (phys/chaos) does not increase the magnitude of the poison, period. Modifiers to general damage taken, like wither or shock, will increased the damage the enemy takes from the poison after the initial magnitude is calculated. This means no single modifier affects the damage of a poison twice. It only ever gets applied once, for the duration of the poison or for however long the debuff lasts. Other modifiers to general chaos damage will not increase poison magnitude or damage unless the initial hit is of that damage type. So physical damage if you have a phys bow, or chaos damage if you deal pure chaos. Generic sources such as projectile damage will scale both allowing you to scale both flat chaos and physical damage at the same time. This means it's likely better to only pick up a handful of chaos notables, and anoint the strongest ones which require a lot of passives to reach. You absolutely can check whether a node is worth taking. You just need to check your numbers in game, and whip out a calculator.

[@NotSionnix]

So is it effective to stack a bunch of increase projectile damage % on the passive skill tree to scale the magnitude of the poison concoction dot? So for example, lets just say poison concoction does 500 base chaos damage, with base 20% magnitude the poison damage would be 100 chaos dps. With 10% increase projectile damage, the poison concoction would now do 550 base chaos damage. Again, with 20% base magnitude, this would mean the poison dot would do 110 chaos dps. So doesn't this mean 10% projectile damage increase (for poison concoction) would translate to 10% poison dps increase which is effectively 10% poison magnitude. If that's the case, projectile damage increase would scale way better than magnitude increases on the tree no? I see the skill has the "projectile" tag but idk if I understood this correctly.

[@B1omaH]

Tested a few interactions with poisons, tested with gas cloud. If you socket exploit weakness gem, and break armor with another skill, you poisons will deal 50% more damage without consuming the broken armour. Close combat and Longshot doesn't work for poison gas cloud damage. Execute will make your poisons deal more damage to low hp enemies. Heft will make your poisons deal more damage

[@TheSamFalcone]

I thought armor break only affected physical damage? If the poison damage is only doing chaos damage.

[@TheSamFalcone]

I’ve also tested the gem that does 40% more area dmg with 50% reduced size. This does work directly with gas cloud and so far has been the most directly impactful support gem I’ve seen to damage

[@B1omaH]

@@TheSamFalcone Yes, if I only break armor, I do not see any increase in damage. But exploit weakness support should consume broken armour and make the skill deal 50% more damage. I am not sure if it's bugged or intended interaction, but since gas cloud's poison doesn't really hit, but poisons as if the target is being hit, it does not consume the broken armour, and still deals 50% more damage. Probably the exploit weakness support checks if the targer got broken armor modifier, applies a damage multiplier and on hit should consume the broken armour, but gas cloud doesn't really hit, so we have no downside :O

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

@B1omaH That is probably unintended but makes sense mechanically. Interesting concept 50% more is pretty good.

[@TheSamFalcone]

@@B1omaH definitely trying this out

[@Wespa64]

So from what I understand there are roughly 3 types of poison builds going around rn 1. Pure phys gas arrow where you go for poison nodes, projectile damage/ phys damage and crit but probably ignore increased %chaos damage nodes 2. Ele unique gloved where you try to get more damage through elemental damage stacking, Im not sure yet if this route is really more damage late game than just raw phys because of opportunity cost. 3. Flask thrower that do scale with %chaos increase nodes because its base damage type is chaos

[@DrunkGeko]

Does projectile damage scale the gas arrow cloud? I thought that portion of the skill would be just area damage and not proj damage

[@Whathappened875]

Probably scales the Toxic Growth explosion if using that with Gas arrow

[@B1omaH]

crit works for gas arrow? Here are some findings of mine about gas arrow: If you socket exploit weakness gem, and break armor with another skill, the poisons will deal 50% more damage without consuming the broken armour. Close combat and Longshot doesn't work for poison gas cloud damage. Execute will make your poisons deal more damage to low hp enemies. Heft will make your poisons deal more damage if you have physical damage

[@Wespa64]

@@B1omaH crit works for at the very least for "normal" poison attacks like poison burst arrow and attacks like snipe where you can make it to do poison. I am assuming that gas should also work with crits but It is hard to test that for myself

[@Wespa64]

@@B1omaH also whats really weird is that every time gas arrow ticks for poison application it seems to me to work like a normal attack. If I slot in an envenom support gem into it to increase my poison on hit chance the poison stacks up faster in the cloud.

[@alextros3549]

You can look up to see if +1 to chaos skills matters. For something like Poisonous Concoction, it matters alot, because skills scale exponentially with levels .This means that the +1 level will scale the base damage by quite alot more at higher levels, which then gets factored in with all other +% chaos damage.

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

Poedb is nice for that but I was talking more about exact numbers. It's always going to be good but at some point we're going to be able to minmax more to find exactly how good.

[@Tripleyou]

No. Your termionolgy is incorrect. No skill scales exponentially with levels. +1 skill level on spells (and poisonous concoction) 'should' be around 11% more damage. If it is not, then PConC might be an outlier. But certainly not exponential scaling.

[@marlonruvalcaba386]

The mana cost also scales with gem levels

[@butomakansabun]

​@@Tripleyou vine arrow is currently scaling exponentially, but it's getting fixed next patch

[@gipsydanger5020]

It's spell skills that scale well with gem levels. Some bow attacks in PoE 1 scaled gem lvl as an outlier, but that doesn't seem to be the case in PoE 2; apart from the aforementioned buggy Vines skill

[@user-yo3cg9ev8y]

how is the poison cloud of gas arrow calculated then? im throwing it on the ground and it clears everything for me, even my boss dmg is insane with it and wither+despair+vine arrow

[@firecapexcompany]

Great vid again, subbing. What have you found to be the most effective damage boost for poison? Ailment speed vs poison magnitude vs poison duration vs big inital hit

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

Poison magnitude, crit and ailment speed are the best so far

[@discofabio5009]

dumb question but how do you level the skill gem and or add sockets? Hanging for that guide!

[@TheMrStaubsauger]

if my first hit procs poison, do the hits after that go ontop of the poision debuff / does it stack? or do i have to wait until the debuff runs out, before i can reapply it. / lots of small hits = bad or good?

[@ever_grey4468]

My God, so many questions... My extensive Example that I am using for some time now to understand scaling and stuff: 100 base Physical dmg. +20% Physical dmg +10% Attack dmg +100% Extra Chaos dmg +10% Chaos dmg = 130 Physical dmg & 120 Chaos dmg (physical gets 30% obvious, Chaos gets 10% from Attack and 10% from Chaos mods) Now, default Poison from that hit would be 1 stack of Poison that deals 50 dmg. Correct? Scenario 1. If I add Wither to the mix, let's say 50% of bonus Chaos dmg from Wither. No resistance, no armor. Now I deal: 130 Physical, 180 Extra Chaos dmg and: a) 75 Poison dmg b) 62 Poison dmg ? Scenario 2. Let's assume base resistance of a target is 50%, no armor. I deal: 130 Physical dmg, 60 Chaos dmg and: a) 50 Poison (poison gets calculated before resistance) b) 38 Poison (poison gets calculated after the resistance) Scenario 3. Target is afflicted with Shock (+20%dmg), No resistance/armor. I deal: 156 Physical dmg, 144 Chaos dmg and: a) 60 Poison dmg (because sum of hit = 300 and 20% magnitude of that is 60) b) 72 Poison dmg c) 50 Poison dmg d) 60 Poison dmg (because sum of hit before Shock mod = 250 and 20% magnitude is 50 Poison dmg, which gets amplified by Shock to deal 60 Poison dmg) Also, what does poison stacks do? Does it apply 2 stacks of Poison from the same hit? What happens when I hit more times within duration of 1st Poison? Is the dmg added, or 1st poison needs to end before applying next one if i'm limited to 1 stack? What about skills that hit multiple times? I'm fun at parties. I couldn't sleep, had to ask this.

[@Billy4321able]

Both shock and wither do NOT affect poison magnitude. They only increase the damage taken by said poison for the duration of the debuff or the poison, whichever runs out first. So with your initial example that dealt a base of 50 poison damage the modified poison damage would be 75 if you maintained maximum wither stacks. This is because wither increases the chaos damage taken and poison ONLY deals chaos damage over time. The damage of the poison after magnitude is calculated is NOT split between physical and chaos poison. It only deals chaos damage. Since sources of damage taken are additive then by shocking an enemy with a 20% shock the damage of the initial 50 damage poison would be 85 if combined with max wither stacks. Just keep in mind that damage over time happens over time, so if the debuff falls off before the last damage tick of the poison then you won't get the full benefit.

[@brainwreck667]

So if you are wondering on those nodes at the top of the tree I can give you some easy math. The 4 Points to get Wither away will net you 20% more poison damage and 20% more damage with the chaos hit but will not double dip for the poison because poison is calculated from the hit before mitigation and damage increases so shock and wither will not scale poisons base damage. Wither normally increases Chaos damage taken buy 5% per stack and has a max of 10 stacks. With the 40% Increase in Wither Effect 5 X 1.4 = 7% there for at max stacks 20% more damage for you poison vs 10 stacks at 5. Now for the other nodes you care gaining 44% increase to chaos which does not scale poison magnitude because that would cause it to double dip which ggg nerfed out of poe 1 after patch 2.6 something like 8 or 9 years ago. but you also gain 11% of damage as Chaos damage so any type of damage be it Physical elemental or chaos will be gained as chaos damage at 11% the way gain works is if a hit of 50 physical and 50 chaos you will gain 11% of each yielding a hit of 50 physical and 61 chaos this occurs before any increased modifiers or more. this is going to give you a delta of 22% more to the base of the hit then this will be modified by %increased physical and % increased chaos and if you have any flat elemental damage 11% of that will be added in as well. now if your bow only has physical you will still gain 11% as chaos to the base of the poison which is still very strong and at a min this will be increased by 44% from the travel nodes to get to it. so in summary if you can maintain 10 stacks of withered you gain 20%more damage for 4 points and for the other 4 you gain 11% of each flat base damage as chaos which is then modified by a minimum of 44% increase or (1+.44). so over all i think they are quite strong.

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

I appreciate the write up. PoE2 has changed how ailments are calculated, in PoE1 poison is calculated on the attacker side based on the base damage from the hit. In PoE2 it's calculated on the defenders side pre mitigation. I believe that is why poison magnitude wasn't affected by crit in PoE1 (they get 50% increased DMG over time but the crit doesn't affect ailment damage otherwise) and now magnitude is affected by crit in PoE2. I'm not 100% positive but I believe this change also might make wither affect poison magnitude now. At the end of the day I'm just going to play the game for now and make decisions based on feel and hopefully PoB2 will exist at some point.

[@brainwreck667]

@@KassSaiYaJiN wither does not affect the magnitude if you read the poison wiki it says the poison is calculated premeditation and increases to damage so shock and wither will not affect the front end of the poison calculation, but wither will affect the damage taken. but yes, crit defiantly affects the base damage of the poison. I'm playing hex blast poison blood mage and those 8 points were worth their weight in gold imo don't know how they will fell for the pathfinder. glss.

[@Habib_Osman]

Wither can be stacked 10 times, and increases chaos damage taken with 5% per stack. 5x10= 50. + 20% wither effectiveness = 60% more chaos damage taken in total.

[@KH-zo8zm]

Do you know if Wither is applied by Vine Arrow? I'm not sure if it "hits". Also, is it applied by Gas Arrow's tick? Or only the initial arrow? Trying to find a good use for the Wither support gem.

[@sha_s2]

Vine Arrow doesn't hit. To apply wither it is better to use Rain of Arrow.

[@SamNewman1984]

perfect video, thanks. ive just been taking every poisoin passive i can find and its been working great. im still wondering if elemental damage affects the poison damage since it increases the hit

[@gettinyukky]

Only if ur using plague finger

[@SamNewman1984]

@@gettinyukky thanks. i think it clicks for me now. it takes the physical and chaos dmg on hit and calculates poison with that.

[@gettinyukky]

@@SamNewman1984 yup! plague gloves give all hit damage ability to scale poison damage also :)

[@bluerversion]

This could all be so simple if they just put a test dummy in hideout.

[@AchedSphinx]

i have a question. how does "poison deals damage faster" effect the damage of poison? is it the same as poe1?

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

Yeah it's just faster ticks pretty sure.

[@TheSamFalcone]

Great video, thank you very much for an explanation. So I have a question for you then. If you are using the Cultist Bow, which does only chaos damage, will the +% chaos nodes therefore increase your poison damage? Because gas arrow should be only poisoning off of your bow damage, which would be only chaos damage in this situation. Let me know if this is correct! Thanks again

[@jeanchen194]

So is it not worth using Wither Away anymore? I saw your previous video and it seems to do good, but I am also trying to figure out what works best for this poison ranger.

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

Just play what feels good man. At this point everyone is just guessing.

[@khianidude]

Dont let them fool you! One of the strongest skill gems in the game is a poison skill! ...but most of its damage is Chaos Damage over time :)

[@marlonruvalcaba386]

Incoming nerf hammer

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

ANNNNNDDDDDD ITS GONE XD IMJUNGROAN

[@ugset191]

Widowhail bow with a quiver that has double crit chance rolls From implicit and suffix crit damage project skill and increased damage corruption may be huge for poi conc

[@ugset191]

I think if get a good widowhail you can get almost 500% quiver bonus with passives included and gems

[@TopalSeytan1234]

does chaos dmg on bows increases poison dmg?

[@Shvnobu]

Yes if you are doing Chaos dmg with the bow. It’s the same as adding phys dmg to a phys bow

[@BuddyMocha]

Yes, the tooltip says both physical & chaos damage will scale poison. There's one pair of unique gloves that lets the other elements scale with poison as well

[@andrewhelms6249]

What gloves are you talking about? I looked on the trading site and nobody was selling them. ​@BuddyMocha

[@baconbankai]

important note there are no chaos damage modifiers for bows so you are likely better off grabing a physical damage bow and with physical damage modifiers atm.

[@philophobic8023]

i believe that fubgun or someone else already proved that level of skills that scale poison based damage is insanely good , it might be just one spell specific but he was doing widowhail + quiver + quiver stats from tree to get a spell to lvl 40 and it pretty much insta melted a boss

[@philophobic8023]

*it was jungroan kzbin.info/www/bejne/f6uso5iHqLtgirM

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

Jungs build wasnt a poison build it was chaos damage overtime. But the general idea is correct +lvls of gems is always good but some skills get significantly more base damage than others based on lvl. When I'm saying we don't know how good something is, I'm not saying it's bad. In fact I'm saying the opposite I'm saying it's good but I'm not sure how good. We won't know for sure until we have a concrete way to calculate damage outside of the game. (Technically you could do this math on your own but I'm not about to do that for every build I make lol)

[@mallwen3955]

The poison stacking passives seems confusing too, I have +3 poison stacks but my gas arrow will only apply 1 stack, if i want more, i have to use other abilities. Also seems to not be interacting properly with comorbidity

[@sionbarzad5371]

gas only applies poison on 1st contact so that's just 1 source of poison, +x means you get to add x sources...

[@ag9k]

So do I need a pure Physical Bow ? Chaos ? Or Chaos with some physical ? Help !

[@Habib_Osman]

This is clearly explained in the video. Phys and chaos damage are both equally able to poison.

[@jeanboyden8769]

That begs the question, if you have something that changes your physical/chaos/poison damage into another damage type, how does that affect calculations?

[@Habib_Osman]

Conversion affects the final hit, so if you convert damage into chaos or phys, nothing changes. if you convert it into anything other than phys/chaos it will decrease the poison damage.

[@alejandrohayling8381]

does this mean that you can have mana leech with gas arrow since we are focusing on phys? this would work out well with chayula and mana leech ci mom eb

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

yep mana leech shouldnt have any issues

[@acab3146]

So does "increased projectile damage" scale poison damage?

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

If you are using a poison skill that has the projectile tag it will increase the poison magnitude. Increasing poison magnitude increased the damage of a poison but it doesn't increase the poisons damage. It sounds confusing I know but think about it as two separate things, the hit you do that causes the poison, then the poison itself.

[@lindleyhayes9736]

Dude, PLEASE post your build gas arrow Pathfinder build

[@Muftaay]

I'm playing poisonburst arrow with a pure physical damage bow. I did spend talent points into "Dark Entries" and "Pure Chaos" Are those essentially wasted talent points then? Should be right? I should probably only look for magnitude modifiers then I assume

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

Both those notables still work but probably arent the most effective use of your skill points. Pure Chaos is basically 11% extra flat damage so its not bad and same with Dark Entries +1 gems is nice if you are stacking gem levels but for the most part the nodes before it are doing nothing so you have to weigh the downsides. Likely you keep Dark entries since you path that way for the poison nodes then drop pure chaos. Id suggest wasting and fast acting toxins.

[@Frank_Art]

so, if the bow used is pure phys, increases to phys would work on the poison, right?

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

It works on the poison magnitude but not the poison itself. Poisons are applied after hits. And poisons are always chaos damage

[@jeffersonsosa1660]

There are specific numbers, the left arrow on skill gems right beside dps

[@timperman9883]

It wasn't clear to me but is the 20% magnitude damage per second or the full duration? My assumption is damage per second.

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

Its per second. I guess thats not super clear in the example, but thats what it also says in game.

[@SlamDance87]

Bro does crit scale poison ? like if I build a snipe ranger charged it to max stacks with 500 crit multi. And had 100%. Chance to poison on hit since the base hit from physical is a bajillion would the poison scale ? Or would it jsut go off the flat damage before the actual crit?

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

Crits do scale poison magnitude and it's EXTREMELY powerful.

[@poom323]

Kinda weird that *increased chaos damage* do increase chaos damage over time but not poison.

[@VincentCarter-t1y]

I understand the logic here, i guess, but it still seems like it's not working as intended because we are able to scale ailment magnitude and speed of ailment damage. why is applied poison (chaos) magnitude not included in that?

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

It's because the hit you do is causing the poison, not technically you since it's after the damage you do. Damage in poe works like this (Base DMG + added damage) * Inc damage * more damage (then other stuff that doesn't matter in this example) %Increased chaos damage is applied directly after (base+added damage) once the final hit is calculated then that's when ailments/poison in this case is applied. So poison magnitude is separate from all of that. It's something like this Hit DMG (the formula above) * poison magnitude (base is 20%) = poison damage per second then duration is taken into account. I hope that makes sense this is how I believe it works but we won't really know unless a dev confirms the actual formula like they did for PoE1.

[@dennis___1181]

What about poison stacking? As a pathfinder I have 10 which I assumed was good but not sure how that scales:x

[@sionbarzad5371]

you have capacity for x poison but you still need to provide x source of poison

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

Stacks are exactly as they sound. Each hit applies a stack until you hit the limit. Each stack is independent of the other stacks since it comes for a different hit. The main thing to point out here is duration, you get a lot less duration from comorbidity and the double poison stacks ascendancy. This won't make dps lower but will make it so you need to hit more often which could lead to lower dps. The most important thing is to ensure you always have max stacks applied.

[@seanplays16]

add chaos infusion to rain of arrows THEN add withering touch. Its basically a despair curse for rangers

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

It's super nice if you aren't using it for another skill. Unfortunately I'm using it for my main skill so I had to find a work around

[@rhirune]

The thing is that Despair and Wither are 2 different effects and we can make use of both, with some investment in Int. To apply Wither with Withering Touch there are 2 good ways (that I know): Dark Effigy and Rain of Arrows. Dark Effigy is a totem that shoots projectiles that deal chaos damage, this alone is enough to trigger Withering Touch. Problem is that the totem dies too fast. Rain of Arrows can be used with Chaos Infusion OR a secondary bow that have chaos damage, like Cultist Bow. Problem is enemies moving out of the area. This is what I'm doing: I put a Cultist Bow on my secondary set and set RoA to only use it while all the other skills only use the primary set (buffs checked to both). The change happens automatically when I use the skills, there is only a little delay.

[@bamzx1]

Does this apply to bleed?

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

I have no idea sorry. Id assume it would be the same like inc physical DMG only scaling the hit not the bleed. But I've never played bleed.

[@bamzx1]

@KassSaiYaJiN thank you that's what I though like you said 50chaos+50physical= 20 poison in bleed version should be or at least for my build 80fire+20physical= 20 bleed I would dive deep on it because I want to make bleed build for the merc

[@rb98769]

I just hope they don't make vine arrow useless in the next patch

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

It'll probably still be good as chaos dot just not 700k base dot lol. Like thats just a scaling issue obviously it wasn't intended.

[@rb98769]

@@KassSaiYaJiN On the bright side concoction just got huge buffs

[@masonhales]

Damn I was hoping you would explain the math behind poison magnitude, I'm not high IQ enough to understand the in-game tooltip

[@ImSoSharky]

If i understand this correctly, it makes no scence to use chaos damage increase as an attribute on ring or amulett or skill tree if you wanna focus purely on poison damage right? If not, please correct me :)

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

Correct. Basically if your hit doesn't have any flat chaos damage, % increased chaos damage does nothing. It's better to have things like increased ailment magnitude and increased poison magnitude or even attack damage or projectile damage.

[@ImSoSharky]

@@KassSaiYaJiN damn time to swap my rings then lol. ty!

[@ImSoSharky]

@@KassSaiYaJiN but whats with Mings Heart, it gives 40% of damage as extra Chaos Damage, isnt that op af?

[@opposed2logic]

@@ImSoSharky it works as 40% more damage for a poison build. you can corrupt it to 50%.

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

the downsides on the ring are pretty bad tho so unless you are playing a build to 1 hit bosses while not dying then its probably not worth the downside.

[@EricJackson233]

With my testing shattering concoction is the best because you can scale it with cold pen and attack damage. Unique gloves that literally give you freeze build up and you one shot freezing everything on maps and you freezing the boss every 7 seconds . I respec to poison concoction after your 2 button video but honest I been spoiled with the freeze it doesn't seem worth. Additionally there are several passives on the skill tree that gives you extra damage to monsters are affect by aliments which is freeze. For maps i use only one button which is shattering concoction For boss or hard elites i have combat frenzy+barrage with snipe. So when they are frozen still i charge my snipe to full pull back and just one shot them. Givent that everything you hit gets frozen instantly if not dying instantly you conserve alot of flask charges . I have had no problems in map clear. Poison might be better damage with bossing because the max tick damage but shattering is my opinion is better you do not have to worry about the boss doing anything crazy, i dont have to look for any weird game mechanics. Ranger my second class and i been playing this since level 21. All the bosses i fought previously on merc i just literally was in the boss faces becaue they are perma froze. You should try it i know i didnt min - max my skill tree

[@Mineral4r7s]

thats neat and all but did u post under the wrong video?

[@EricJackson233]

@Mineral4r7s what? Lol no

[@Criti307]

Do hou have a discord where we can share our pathfinder poison builds ?

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

I don't sorry.

[@blondiwithstyle]

Feels so weird that % chaos dmg does not affect the poison tick (which the game says is chaos dmg) :/

[@ooanticsoo4475]

Yea I really am curious when it comes to plus chaos skills. Cause gas arrow got the chaos tag. And usually levels were insane. The other thing I'm curious about is if armor breaking effects the physical aspect of the hit......compared to with for chaos. So if you break a mobs armor (the hit should do more?) Idk but I'm going to still test it.

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

Armor break only works on physical damage. It should increase the hit damage but I think that depends on the specific mob and the amount of armor they have. It might be something that is used situationally.

[@ooanticsoo4475]

@KassSaiYaJiN right so if we stack only physical......wouldn't that theoretically change what a mob is hit for? Same thing for physical nodes....hell there's a node that gives armor break based off physical. We could try that and know for sure how effective it is?

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

It's based on the mob you're hitting pretty sure. You can't armor break past 0, so mobs with a lot of armor take more damage and mobs with no armor take the same damage. Basically you are bypassing mitigation the higher mitigation the mob has the more benefit you get.

[@Shekleor]

​@@KassSaiYaJiN let me rephrase what you just said to put it in another perspective. Basically, if an enemy has 60% phys dmg reduction to your instance of dmg and another one has 20% pdr, fully breaking the armour of the 60% one is more beneficial than the 20% one. So armour breaking is situational, although it always helps.

[@ooanticsoo4475]

@Shekleor oh i understood it, from both explanations. And maybe it is only cost effective against end game bosses etc. Just was bringing it up into the discussion. Just like gem level used to be king for poison bows. Eventually we will get it down. But until we know for sure......projectile damage works just fine.i hope I didn't come off as argumentative etc. Its to attempt to get brainstorming going. Usually the best builds take advantage of as many more multipliers as possible.

[@edelmond6453]

Does that mean that the passive from gas arrow ,, Does not Hit, but Poisons enemies as though Hitting them,, is actually not hitting ?

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

The arrow does hit the mob but it does almost no damage (you can test this with brutality support)

[@Mineral4r7s]

theres atleast 2 parts to the dmg of gas arrow. the arrow part and the gas cloud part. u can see the different parts ingame if u extend the dmg tooltip from the gem menu

[@edelmond6453]

@@KassSaiYaJiN one quick question to see if i understood correctly. the chaos dmg doesn't scale poison, only increase magnitude scale poison and also part of the physical dmg that hits?

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

If you have a source of flat chaos damage then increased chaos damage will increase that source when calculating the hit/magnitude. If you are pure phys then increased chaos damage does nothing since there isnt flat chaos damage to increase. The actual arrow hit from gas arrow is basically meaningless, the gas cloud is calculated like it was a normal attack skill but doesnt actually hit. Its a little complicated but hopefully that makes sense.

[@edelmond6453]

@@KassSaiYaJiN i think i got how the gas arrow interaction works. i was just wondering if i can scale physical dmg with poison , poison magnitude. Like if i take armour breaker with chance to poison, make it poison 100% of the time, would it scale with physical dmg ?

[@abeheron]

I am not 100% sure you are correct about this. I know the tooltips don't update. But it doesn't seem consistent. If you put the support Brutality(say in gas arrow) - 'supported skills deal 35% more Phys damage, but no chaos damage', your gas clouds will not poison the enemies. If the 'added chaos damage' only based on the original hit damage, wouldn't the gas clouds have worked?

[@abeheron]

I also tested with poisonburst arrow + brutality. 'no chaos damage' negates the chaos damage that would have been caused by the cloud, thus negating the poison. Not saying you are wrong necessarily about the nodes on the tree (I need to test it), but it certainly isn't consistent ingame throughout.

[@abeheron]

it looks like as soon as you put on brutality as a support 'chance to poison' goes to 0% on any skill in the tooltip.

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

Brutality is literally do NO chaos damage so it doesn't even check for poison chance or if something can poison. This is coded different than other modifiers. I too tested this at first and had a similar conclusion but its just an outlier. At the end of the day Aliments always happen after hits so if you have a mod that is applied specifically when a hit happens (ie increased chaos damage) its just another source of increased damage in the hit calculation.

[@Jdtre]

How does an Ele bow scale with poison?

[@Mineral4r7s]

not at all because only phys and chaos can poison unless u have some uniques that change what can poison

[@Jdtre]

@ sure so like Plaguefinger gauze wraps can then “all damage from hits” into poison magnitude.. but this long term is innately worse than just pure phys?

[@dylan-sk8mt]

@@Jdtre no its better IMO you can turbo scale the ele dmg, build is shredding t15 bosses rn

[@Mineral4r7s]

@ the unique gloves should enable all damage to poison for 20% of the hit. so 100 fire dmg will apply 20 poison dmg as 20% is the base poison magnitude if u wear the gloves

[@Jdtre]

@@Mineral4r7s hmm okay so in that case, if I have gloves on and a bow with all 3 (fire, light, cold) n it all 3 hit for 100, would that then be 60 total applied as poison… I could see how this could scale higher than phys because phys would just be 1 dmg type of 100 vs. 3 dmg types of 100 (fire, light, cold)

[@Beoorc]

There are gloves that let all damage count towards poison, plaguebringer or something

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

Plaguefingers, idk if they are good its probably fine but it all depends on how much flat ele you can get on a bow and if its more than flat phys on a bow.

[@lewie8136]

So scale poison by hitting harder and increasing the magnitudes

[@Mineral4r7s]

and the chaos damage they take through curses, wither and sources that lower resistances. chaos pen doesnt work tho! another vector is poison stack size as u only have 1 by default. poison duration and skill speed come into the equation aswell. if u have a 100% uptime of max stacks u can reallocate points out of duration / skill speed to other things.

[@new_af28996]

i have to ask, do you know how important is to have + level to projectile skills? im trying to figure out what to buy on trade

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

It depends on the skill but generally it's very good to have more levels the only down side is cost and attribute requirements.

[@sims2310]

Thank you for this!

[@mickaelm5229]

increase chaos dont work with poison.

[@Bling92]

🤯

[@VGBiggielicious]

You are wasting so many nodes going for chaos and withered out the gate. You’re missing out entirely on MOST of your damage. Pro tip: Nodes that increase attack or physical damage increase your poison damage. Since your Poisonburst and Poisoncloud arrows are attack based hits.! Go back and focus purely on poison magnitude, attack damage, and physical damage nodes. Thank me later for helping you stop playing Ranger on hard mode by ramping your damage to 10x more effectiveness.

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

I'm not playing gas arrow. I'm playing pconc

[@F-aber]

And projectile damage as well

[@F-aber]

@@KassSaiYaJiNdo pconc count as projectiles?

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

@F-aber yeah? but its chaos based and why my tree is the way it is in the video like the og comment was saying... theres a reason im taking these nodes after stating in the video they do nothing for phys based poison builds.

[@BeAcHPa]

​@@KassSaiYaJiN i want to play p conc too, csn you post a build in mobalytics. I am rly interessted how you sustain your flask charges....

[@vamps3000]

So, poison is absolute trash in POE2

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

It's still early, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw some big changes or new skills.

[@jdRamza]

​@@KassSaiYaJiNI think daggers will be good for poison. New bases and skills

[@Anger]

It's actually not bad, my poison pathfinder can do t15 waystone without any issue, and the damage is really nice. For content harder than the t15 waystone, I am not too sure because I am still improving my gears. But basically, the high skills level of Gas arrow, vine arrow, and plague with 10 stack of poison on boss, I can already burn the boss really quick.

[@Anger]

Just make sure you get your physical damage as high as possible and skill lvl as well. A lot of poison skill they get crazy basic damage/scale up after skill lvl 28-30.

[@bruvkek4629]

@@Anger it gets nerfed soon

[@briankern9687]

Plaguefinger gloves are so OP because all damage you do including elemental damage scales your poison dmg up. Got pathfinder to maps with gas arrow and it is insane. So if you have elemental damage on your bow your poison will fuck

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

Im still not 100% convinced that ele is the best option for poison iirc phys based bows have much higher base damage than ele. That also might be when compared to one element not all of them. There's a ton to look into and test, elemental based poisons are pretty far back on my list.

[@mazgill8780]

But then you play without snakepits, which adds +1 poison, or +2 for pathfinders.

[@marlonruvalcaba386]

The gloves are for using spells to poison. Imagine a chalupa using comet and hitting the 100% extra chaos damage and propagating that damage with the herald of plague. Or use spark to apply the poison to everything without aiming

[@TheSamFalcone]

Great video, thank you very much for an explanation. So I have a question for you then. If you are using the Cultist Bow, which does only chaos damage, will the +% chaos nodes therefore increase your poison damage? Because gas arrow should be only poisoning off of your bow damage, which would be only chaos damage in this situation. Let me know if this is correct! Thanks again

[@PMaugans10]

I am wondering this as well!

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

Cultist bows can do both physical and chaos damage. It only has base chaos damage instead of base physical. Now let's say you have a cultist bow with only chaos damage on it. In that case % increased chaos damage would increase the hit from the skill. That hit is divided by 20 and that damage is the base poison damage. As for gas arrow, the gas cloud does not hit but poisons as if it hit. So this means it calculates 20% of a hit to apply poison but it doesn't actually hit for the damage that was used to calculate the poison. Personally I think cultist bows are bait. You can get a ton more physical damage on a bow and it makes it so you can skip some of the increased chaos damage nodes.

[@TheSamFalcone]

@@KassSaiYaJiN so does armor break only benefit from physical bows too? Does the poison from gas arrow calculate based on the physical damage that would hit (if it did hit) before or after the armor break?

[@KassSaiYaJiN]

Armor break does nothing poison is calculated pre mitigation. If you hit an armor broken target the only DMG increase you get is on the hit itself and it's AFTER the ailment is calculated. So it has no impact on the poison.

[@TheSamFalcone]

@@KassSaiYaJiN ok this is really good to know, thank you!