How Robb & House Stark Could Have Won the Game of Thrones

Liam explains how Robb Stark could have defeated each of the following Kings, Joffrey, Renly, Robb, Stannis and Balon to have won the clash of kings and the game of thrones.
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• How Stannis Baratheon ...
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[@TheFandomeClips]

Which House should we do next ? :D Hit that Thumbs up and leave a comment so we know we're ont he right track :D

[@josephehlers2007]

House Greyjoy, they definitely have the most difficultly

[@steel12fire8]

House Martell, but they don't take on the Lannisters head on but through plots and assassinations.

[@emw6014]

the tyrells

[@emw6014]

The martels

[@remnantreacts9845]

Stannis

[@PtownSoccer15]

Now that you mention killing Jamie, it actually should have been the move. They killed Ned, granted that was joffery, but that showed that Robb and the north let that slide. It’s war, like Roose bolton said “the high road is very pretty, but I’m afraid you’ll have a hard time marching your army down it”

[@TheFandomeClips]

Exactly Dane, no quater should be given to an enemy that gives you none, honour is a fools prize at best! Thanks for watching! Liam

[@clementtroaming5435]

How about somebody staged a murder on Roose Bolton before the actual war & make Ramsay Lord of Dreadfort?

[@LordBloodraven]

While I know Robb would follow his father's belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword, he could have permanently secured Lord Karstark's loyalty by allowing him to behead Jaime Lannister and avenge his sons.

[@TheFandomeClips]

@@LordBloodraven It certainly would. The Starks are a force to be reckoned with as a faction. Its their pesky morals that screw them over 😂 -Liam

[@guilleyo161]

If Jaime was killed, so would be Sansa

[@mappingshaman5280]

Walder freys offer was genuine. He sent 5000 troops to help robb, led by his sons and grandsons. You don't do that if you're not picking a side. I think he picked his side with robb, then as every other great lord before him including tywin had done already, robb spat in his face so walder just decided "fuck it, I tried playing the game nice, now I'm just going to start killing."

[@clementtroaming5435]

That’s a valid point. Even Roose Bolton tried to back Robb. The problem was that Robb was high & mighty with honour to make his gains obtainable.

[@TheFandomeClips]

I hold my hands up 👐 Tom is right on further reflection. Although I think Betrayal was always on the table for Walder, unlike houses like Umber and Manderly! Thanks for watching! Liam

[@MiguelSanchezDelVillar]

@@TheFandomeClips indont think so, without Robb marrying one of his daughters until the end of the war Walder could always cancel the marriage if Robb was losing or if he was defeated in battle, that would leave him with a less strict punishment from the Lannisters than if he had married a daughter to Robb instantly, that was his escape route until Robb married Jeyne Westerling

[@polatpolatcan4749]

@@TheFandomeClips What would you do in Walder position as lord? While supporting the north is all nice and dandy. His primary loyalty is to his house, not the Starks. I think that most lords expected Walder to betray the cause the moment Robb started losing the rebellion.

[@williamsodonon7081]

I like the 'killing all male lannister" terms. Unfortunately it was highly unlikely. The starks aren't that ruthless. This theory assumes Rob knows all those who side against him present and future. Rob wouldn't have had a reason to be against Freys and Boltons. Also the Tyrells. The only move they made was marriage to Renly which isn't a direct move against the Starks.

[@patriot459]

I would absolutely love to see the chaos cersei would cause when she learns Jamie was killed because of Joffrey and Tywin.

[@mavric4048]

RIP Sansa Stark

[@Electronica27]

It would be fricken AWESOME, but ig the only consistency is that she has to always hate Tyrion

[@rias.gremoryyy]

Bro all the starks would be dead.. Tywin ain't playing around.. he defeated stronger foes than Robb.. people actually believe that robb stands a chance Tywin was the most powerful man in Westeros after the death of Robert

[@dennismarquez7354]

@@rias.gremoryyy it doesn't matter. All the Starks were going to be killed either way the moment the rebelled against Joffrey, whether they kill Jayme or don't. So kill him and you sent a message. You kill one of ours, we'll kill yours too.

[@sebastianb.3978]

@@rias.gremoryyy And yet he still couldn't defeat him without Bolton and Frey... Did you watch the video?

[@hughtube5154]

Dealing with Dani is fairly easy. You've just gotta wait for her terrible memory to kick in. "Dani kinda forgot about the Ironborn fleet." -> Dani kinda forgot there was a north.

[@LeandroBoon]

You wait for het 45 chromosomes to kick in

[@A_Black_Sheep94]

​@@LeandroBoonPretty much. It turns on and off.

[@callmekhaleesi]

😂😂😂😂

[@zebajemia-slif4089]

​@@LeandroBoonYes, another annoyance for me is sansa

[@s.e4572]

sansa didn't do anything ​@@zebajemia-slif4089

[@uniguy2126]

I definitely think Tom’s right. The Freys are constantly talking about how all the other houses spit on them for how they rose to power, so Walder would absolutely take the chance to take his family from lesser nobility to northern royalty status. It just fits his character more.

[@TheFandomeClips]

Aye I'm noticing a pattern of "Tom is right" I've given him one free "I told you so" 😂 for future use. Thanks for tuning in! Liam

[@codyturner9741]

​@@TheFandomeClips i disagree think he would do whatever he can to keep from being on one side or the other at that point i dont think he would pick robb yet yes jamie is gone but tywin is still leathal think robb would hafta show a little more to sway him or atleast post pone it long enough to get a raven gone and back

[@KA-bg6iq]

Tywin would end up offering Jamie to the Freys, and he'd have a whole connection to one day have kin that could be kings. Tywin would still win, and Robb would die.

[@Afdog]

@@codyturner9741 Tywin is lethal but Jamie is the heir to Tywin. If he’s dead then there’s high possibility that Lannisters start to fall apart internally (Tywin brothers could have made a move to become house patriarchs) plus it’s less point of other houses to make alliance with them as they don’t have an heir and it’s volatile situation by itself. So that’s a possibility as well

[@shuikai272]

Walder could try to ensure that his daughter does not become pregnant. But Robb of course can just kind of like.. take control of the situation by separating her from her family and manipulating his wife. Or you can always just kill the Freys for daring to blockage you.

[@MadridistaNICK]

Robb is THAT character, first 'King in the North' since Aegon’s Conquest 300 years before, who you truly believe will avenge Ned against the wrongdoings of the Lannisters but the Red Wedding throws EVERYONE for a loop. Now in hindsight the seeds for the Red Wedding were most definitely planted but with his death he became a martyr. Stories will most definitely be told of the 'Young Wolf', a boy King, calling his banners and rebelling against the throne and earning the respect of friend and foe alike, and his brutal end to life which came at the cost of honour. With his death marked a changing of the guard in the North and Riverlands, Winterfell and Riverrun.

[@akshaykumarjha9136]

True. It's going to be an interesting story, the Young Wolf who became the King of the North but was betrayed and murdered. But how his bastard half brother avenged him and completely destroyed the offending houses on the battlefield.

[@thalmoragent9344]

Facts. A promising man, though one who fell for love 😓

[@thalmoragent9344]

@@akshaykumarjha9136 Indeed

[@Usernumber777]

@@akshaykumarjha9136 it has a Targaryen dynasty lore to it as in betrayal wise and a stark lore about the young wolve avenged by the white wolf

[@l.jboylan6704]

the cost of honour?

[@wafflingmean4477]

It's interesting to think how many Lannister generals (aside from Tywin) would have been afraid to even face Robb's army if he straight up executed Jaime. Most would assume that if they surrendered the North would try to ransom them. This was quite common in our own medieval times and Lannister generals would have the money at home to pay their ransoms. So they would happily wage war against the Northerners as if it's any other job. But Robb killing Jaime, the ultimate hostage, completely overturns the board. Every one of those lords knows to face Robb is to face death, and most would likely prefer a more peaceful option once Robb had won a few battles, putting them at odds with Tywin who would be hellbent on revenge.

[@A_Black_Sheep94]

Yet they likely wouldn't have the power or means to over throw Tywin or change his plans even if all the lesser lords banded together as his grandson was king and he had the entire 7 kingdoms minus the north and riverlands at his disposal.

[@wafflingmean4477]

@@A_Black_Sheep94 Overthrow him? Definitely not. But feudal lords depended on their vassals in order to rally troops. If the generals of those troops just don't want to fight anymore, then it makes Tywin's job a hell of a lot more difficult. Additionally, many would be afraid of the consequences Tywin would enforce for deserting the field of battle or half arsing their command positions. But if Robb's able to make them even more scared of him, making sure they know that if they lose, they die, then Tywin ordering them to fight him when he keeps winning battles becomes a lot less appealing. They wouldn't switch sides or anything, but some of them might just choose to ride home and see whether Tywin or Robb comes out on top.

[@tater8251]

@@A_Black_Sheep94 He did not have the entire seven kingdoms, he only had the Crownlands and the Westerlands, the Reach hadn't committed any troops or resources to the war, neither had the Vale or Dorne, all three of those were neutral. The Stormlands was in open rebellion against him. The Crownlands don't really give many soldiers, its lands aren't very populated other than Kingslanding and most soldiers there are used to defend Kingslanding against the impending invasion. That really just leaves the thirty thousand men that Twyin has after they had lost the first few battles.

[@A_Black_Sheep94]

@tater8251 He had gold which would have gotten them whatever they wanted for nearly any lord whether men, resources, or what have you. He doesn't need to have direct control of the entire 7 kingdoms, though if Jeoffry was king it would all technically belong to Tywin since Jeoffry is a tool. I think you're trying to split a hair here. You get the point I'm saying.

[@rickdesper]

I suspect other Lannister subordinates would understand that the killing of Jamie Lannister was retribution for the killing of Ned Stark. They would understand that they, personally, didn't rate the same treatment (unless Robb made a public statement to that effect.)

[@KingOfWinter]

If Robb and Renly could come to a truce before Renlys assassination and have a ceremony in front of their bannermen recognizing each other as equals (or as close to equals as two Kings would allow themselves to look). There is a very big chance that after Renly is murdered the Tyrells come to Robb with a marriage pact with Margery and declare him King of the seven kingdoms. With Robb almost lucking his way into being king of the full kingdom instead of just half. People really respect and trust the Starks to do the right thing so while some bannermen may go to stannis I think most will see his claim as a lost cause and back the Tyrell/Stark alliance. That morning Robb crushes Stannis like Renly would’ve done and then been at the gates of Kings Landing by the end of the week/Month with the whole kingdom at his back except for maybe Dorne but even so Dorne hates Tywin so much they might even side with Robb if he had the backing of 4-5 of the seven kingdoms already. Ah a man could dream lol

[@quangvinh5202]

I'm 90% sure Dorne will join with Robb. After the sack of King's Landing, Ned was the only one who wanted justice for Elia and her children, surely Doran would consider that. Man, imagine Oberyn leading the army and fight along side Robb. That would've been awesome.

[@KingOfWinter]

@quangvinh5202 I didn’t even think of that but yeah that would be awesome. Then I could see Arianna marrying Willis Tyrell (I would say Bran but idk if she would go for someone so young), Edmure still marries Roselyn Frey to make up for Robb marrying Margery, Quentin Marries Sansa. Knowing Robb I don’t think he kills Tommen or Marcella so I think he would marry Arya to Tommen (make him lord of the rock) and Theon to Marcella. Edric Storm would be legitimized and made Lord of stormsend (I don’t think you have to marry him into your family since he already owes his legitimization and lordship to Robb but I could see him and Theon arranging Yara just to try to connect his house to the family in some way). I think you save Bran and Rickon a few years to see if any houses try to rebel that you might need to try and connect to you or marrying Bran to a highborn northern lady (maybe Mormont or Karstark) and give him Winterfell since he’s the second oldest male and Robb now has the iron throne. Rickon should probably marry someone in the Vale though I could see him turning out like the Blackfish and not going through with it or like the Rogue Prince were he marries her but doesn’t stay there or even like her or something lol. What say you?

[@god-in-schizoid-mind3120]

The one issue I see with this is the geography. Robb would've had to make the marriage pact with the freys way before any alliance with Renly could have happened. And as we have seen by the time he crosses the twins and gets far enough south to send anyone to meet with Renly it gives enough chance for Stannis to kill Renly and take command of his forces. Also once Robb breaks that marriage pact is when he loses the frey army. Killing Jamie like this video suggested was an option but I don't think Robb would have ever done it. The main problem fro Robb was the marriage pact with the Freys and then geography. He was just to far away to make any alliances with any of the other major houses, without having to make that pact with the freys first.

[@littleindio]

If Rob were to capture the mountain, and if he were to send him to Dorne so Oberyn could have his revenge, do you think Dorne would ally themselves with the north?

[@TheFandomeClips]

It would certainly be a good start to securing a bond. They both want the Lannisters dealt with so they have goals in common. The issue i think would arise when dorne has to pick between Rob and Dany. If my memory serves me right the dornish were famously loyal to the targaryns so they may break faith with the North if forced to make that choice. Thanks for watching! -Liam

[@kelanjames8429]

@@TheFandomeClips they were also the only one of the 7 kingdoms to kill a dragon and were the only one to not be taken over by force, granted when they joined willingly it was through marriage so who knows what would happen there

[@abdullahnaeem7275]

Personally Oberyn would be convinced but his brother would not be.

[@littleindio]

@The Fandome Clips makes sense. That said though, once it would come to light that Jon Snow is actually Aegon Targaryen, do you think they would switch from Dany to Jon's side?

[@francorodriguez-vr8ri]

@littleindio not sure. Jon may be a Targaryen but he is also the son of Rhaegar and Leanna Stark, not Elia Martell. If they found that Rhaegar forsook and set aside Elia for Lyanna, they could blame Jon as the reason the Rebellion happened or take out their anger on Rhaegar on his son since Rhaegar and Lyanna’s love story ultimately led to Elia’s death along with her children

[@ricopena2053]

The main reason they lost was because of Stannis and Renly. Renly should have been Stannis’s hand and heir to ensure the Reach alliance. And Stannis can avoid killing his brother. If Stannis just went straight to Kings Landing with the fleet, the city would have never made any of the preparations on time, and any of the merchants and lords loyal to Baratheons would have not been captured in the antler conspiracy.

[@shifterverse]

Wait for our baratheon vid Rico, we go into that very thing! Thanks for watching- Liam

[@user-op6kt8pg9y]

George is very anti war game of thrones and asoiaf is meant to represent that no matter what there are no upsides or winners to war

[@TheFandomeClips]

​@@user-op6kt8pg9y aye ASOIAF is far from subtle about that theme. It permeates through both the "good" and "Bad" characters of you can even categorise them as such. Liam

[@fox2569]

The war would have been over quick and the story not as good since the Lannisters stood no chance against Stannis and Renly combined let alone allied with the Starks too.

[@TheFandomeClips]

@@fox2569 Aye, moral of the whole 5 kings story seems to be, swallow your pride and keep your promises!

[@realSimoneCherie]

Moral of the story there’s a big difference between being honorable and being soft. Honorable doesn’t mean nonviolent, it just means being honest, having a code and sticking to it.

[@TheDoctorinspector]

Once Jamie is killed, there is a zero percent chance that Sansa lives. ZERO.

[@rickdesper]

Strong disagree. And for reasons of gender. Killing a female hostage is pretty much unheard of. Sansa would always have value to the Lannisters for the same reason she did in the books: she gave the Lannisters an easy pass to taking Winterfell by marriage.

[@TheDoctorinspector]

@@rickdesper Except for the whole part where she was married to a Lannister, the Lannisters were allied to the warden of the north (Bolton), and did NOTHING of the sort to try to claim the north. They literally gave it to a Bolton instead. Meaning they already have the north allied with or without Sansa..

[@TheDoctorinspector]

@@rickdesper Not to mention Missandei was a female hostage and Cersei didn't think twice to take her head within a fortnight. I think you're just wrong on all accounts in this comment.. xD

[@semanel2472]

@@TheDoctorinspector Missandei was big noone, Sansa is Stark.

[@TheDoctorinspector]

@@semanel2472 A big no one? Girl, sit down. You're embarrassing yourself..

[@spackofutzi]

I like that it all centers around Robb, he is one of the best and most badass characters

[@shifterverse]

We lost him too soon. RIP Wolf King! Thanks for watching! -Liam

[@TheFandomeClips]

Poor one out for the young wolf... so close.... yet so far. 🍷

[@LordBloodraven]

Forever Young. Even after Catelyn released Jaime Lannister, Robb could have still maintained the Karstark loyalty. Lord Karstark wanted to kill Lannisters, so let him. Not the boys, but Casterly Rock and Lannisport. They had already taken the Crag (in both the books AND the show), which is just north from the Lannister seat of power. Had Robb ordered an attack on Lannisport and then a siege of Casterly Rock, Lord Karstark would exact his revenge and the Boltons would be given an opportunity to prove their valor (and loyalty).

[@jasonfarrell00]

Never lost a battle 🤦‍♂️ bro was my favorite character and to see him go out that way HURT…yea everyone else too I guess meh but ROB WAS MY BOY 😩

[@zafferung4440]

He's a bloody thirsty idiot, who got lucky with a magic wolf.

[@jackbaldwin2307]

I think Walder Frey would've agreed to the marriage if he offered to do it there and then. At that point, Robb was the most powerful force and also the red wedding only happened because Robb married Telisa. Walder was a proud man and being related to The King In The North who would most likely win the war, he'd jump at the chance

[@TheFandomeClips]

Its official Tom's head will no longer fit through the door 😂 I give up he was right. Thanks for watching! Liam

[@koreancowboy42]

Even then Walder was a scheming old man. Don't let his old age and pride get to you

[@zortexboco306]

@@koreancowboy42 he’s very old bros like 100

[@Baratheon.]

iirc Jaime & Tywin both commanded armies the size of Robb''s which means they outnumber him by a 2:1 ratio at min.

[@Dell-ol6hb]

Robb had one of the smallest armies in the war besides Stannis(pre Renly's murder) and Balon, the Lannisters outnumber him by like 2 or 3 times and the Tyrells outnumber him by like 4 times, he had zero chance of winning the war unless he was going to just fall back North of the Neck and not even bother defending the Riverlands, which he wouldn't do

[@joolsturner5456]

Regarding the Baratheon choice, a smart play could have been to simply wait for the victor, when Kat arrives the two brothers were a few days away from going to war with each other, Kat/the north could have sat back and waited until it was over then ally with whoever came out on top

[@emmastokes64]

Roose was loyal to Robb initially. It wasn't until continuous mistakes from Robb and Stannis losing at the Battle of Blackwater Bay that he decided to betray him

[@shaycase1834]

Roose was loyal at first, if not completely. I think roose is a guy who keeps all options open, loyal but willing to betray for his benefit at any moment. Like when he lost the battle of the green fork, he used mostly men from other houses, so to lose less men from his on army from the dreadfort

[@pcharl01]

​@@shaycase1834not truly if I remember correctly. The 2,000 men killed in the divergence to capture Jaime were led by Roose and he made sure none of his perished

[@shaycase1834]

@@pcharl01 you remember correctly

[@ktvindicare]

@@pcharl01 That battle was different in the books. In the Books Roose Bolton had the majority of Rob's forces under his command when he attacked Tywin as a diversion. Rob only had a handful of Bannermen with him, and he was able to trick Jaime into an ambush with a much smaller force.

[@Keptaro]

Roose was an opportunist and stayed loyal with the Starks because there weren't any better options he could go for. He couldn't do much but ride with Ned Stark during Robert's Rebellion and make a name for himself. Aerys was mad, half of Westeros was rallied against him, too risky. That he didn't do anything during the Greyjoy Rebellion goes without saying, odds were 10 to 1. Roose always had that red king blood in him. He just waited for the right moment

[@hamzamahmood9565]

1) Catelyn keeps Jaime 2) Robb keeps his marriage vow to the Freys They may not have been enough to win the war but surely enough to not get killed

[@duecansam1248]

Jamie needed to die, and Robb let the Karstarks do it. The only way to get Tywin to take you seriously. Tywin would have blamed Cersei and Joffrey too by his eye-for-an-eye total war understanding.

[@Antidote-hx7if]

honestly he probably would have one as long as he made peace with stannis

[@thebasileus4793]

I think that Catelyn was a good influence on Robb. In the book there is an entire chapter devoted to Catelyn teaching Robb to lead and I don't think Robb would have gotten as far as he did without her. Maybe later on after she had given him the initial push he needed she could go back to Winterfell and help Brann rule the North but she was a must have in the beginning of the rebellion.

[@ricopena2053]

She should go home after the Frey arrangements. And Roslin Frey should have traveled with Robb, so the betrothal would be real to him.

[@thebasileus4793]

@@ricopena2053 I agree. She had already done what she needed to do and the Frey girl and Robb could have had some time together.

[@thisguy8106]

​@@ricopena2053 the freys were going betray them from the start. So was Roose. Roose sent Robbs army into a trap before Robb did anything.

[@ricopena2053]

I thought they Freys were hedging their bets. If Stannis took King’s Landing, I don’t think the Freys kill Robb. Stannis wouldn’t abide a noble house killing an ally in battle. Also, Renly would have land taken from them and lower their status. Roose might because he’s Dracula, but I am not certain he acts without the Freys. Roose’s hold on the North is tenuous at best, the other houses are undermining his every move in the fight against Stannis and he was forced to send out his strongest allies, the Freys, to fight Stannis. I don’t think Twenty Goodmen is happening in the books. The Lannisters accept the Frey offer because they have their backs against the wall. In Feast, they are scornful of Waldur Frey’s demands in the Riverlands and are constantly mocking them. Plus, the Red Wedding is seen as one of the worst acts by the common people who are sure that the Lannisters were somehow involved. One of the Sparrows says as much during a sermon.

[@lxfj2128]

She should be sent home war isn’t for mothers

[@Flowery1991]

It's funny that you mention it. When my boyfriend and I talk about Game of Thrones, we often discuss whether the Starks should have killed Jamie. My boyfriend says killing Jamie would have been a very smart move for the Starks. He gets upset with Catelyn for just letting Jamie go without discussing it with anyone and without any guarantee that it would really help her daughters. I, on the other hand, can understand Catelyn better because she acted like a mother. But I also agree that she took a risk, because Jamie could have just cheated on Catelyn.

[@abelrussell5556]

While I understand being sympathetic with Catelyn, it doesn’t change the fact that she lost the war with that move. That makes her a good character (flawed and multifaceted) even if I hate her for it

[@victorfergn]

@@abelrussell5556 yeah, but you can't kill Jamie.

[@IsaixLD7]

Nah, killing Jaime would have been stupid. He's a valuable hostage. If Catelyn hadn't release Jaime, I don't think Tywin would have risked the Red Wedding because the Starks at Riverrun could have executed Jaime as soon as they found out they were betrayed as I'm sure he would have been kept there.

[@victorfergn]

@@IsaixLD7 exactly

[@robbiewira5344]

The fact he didn’t cheat her and spent all that time and energy keeping his vow in the end was one of the best character development situations in any show/series ever though

[@GandalfderDauerblaue]

The deal with the Freys always bothered me. There is literally a wood next to the twins, so Robb and his 20.000 men could have just build some rafts and crossed the river wherever they liked to.

[@Aredel]

It's not well communicated in the show, but in the books the Trident is an incredibly dangerous river to cross. Sure, they could try with the rafts, but not only does that take an incredibly long time, but a lot of men will drown in the process, depleting his already miniscule force.

[@denusklausen3685]

Counterfactually yes, but in the show he was still trying to make it to King's Landing before Ned Stark was killed.

[@blecao]

But didnt the battle of the trident happened with the Targarian forces crossed the river and met Robert forces in battle? Wouldnt that mean the trident can be traverse or is the castle build on that point and the only point where it can be crossed?@@Aredel

[@fran3ro]

Most surely those woods are on Frey lands so they can't just chop them.

[@justincastellanos5647]

He needed to be able to cross the river with ease and speed whenever they needed. Thats the strategic value of the twins, whoever holds it has the best options as far as manuverability goes. Crossing without an alliance would have left him and his army stuck trying to cross a dangerous river anytime they needed to travel north or south of it.

[@zaklarey8446]

In one of tyrions book chapters it’s heavily implied that Tywin thought Jamie was lost and that’s why he made Tyrion hand because he was his only son

[@TheFandomeClips]

Aye very true, although there is a big big difference in THINKING someone is lost and KNOWING someone is lost. I've experienced it one too many times in real life to know it hits very different. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and watching! Liam

[@MrBell-iq3sm]

That's what Tyrion thinks at least, and his views of his father's actions are very biased.

[@treali]

@@TheFandomeClips Don't think that's the case for a battle-hardened individual like Tywin. In the end, you go with the optimal strategy for what you think is the most likely scenario. Is it a 95% chance or a 100% chance that Jamie is dead? Doesn't matter. In 19 out of 20 scenarios, you are wrong if you assume he is alive.

[@jonathanyaloussa]

I can't believe you have not mentioned rebuilding or at the very least fortifying Moat Cailin. Also, if you're going to send Lady Stark away, then I suggest raising the Black Fish as Rob's chief counsellor.

[@shifterverse]

Great suggestions! Thanks for watching! Liam

[@keegeebee5392]

If the Lannisters are on the defensive, why would one divert resources to reinforce Moat Cailin? That would also be discouraging to the Tullies, who could interpret that as a sign that the Starks are preparing for the eventuality that they might retreat that far North.

[@jonathanyaloussa]

@@keegeebee5392 Fair point. I think they would use it the same way The Vail uses the Gates of the Moon, then have it garrisoned by Riverlords and northerners.

[@ryanduffy1176]

@@keegeebee5392 because they’d only have to have the reeds fortify it as a precaution incase Tywin tried to storm the north

[@keegeebee5392]

@@ryanduffy1176 It would, certainly, protect the Starks from a Lannister attack. But, by preparing to fall back that far, they're telling all of their allies "we are willing to give up your lands to save ourselves" while also diverting resources away from the war effort. It would be a bad move politically, and may result in some riverlords plotting against or openly betraying the rebel cause - a far more real and present threat than Tywin marching his entire army North.

[@JonskuElf]

You mentioned in the end that the Wall events would play out similarly but if Jon is stabbed to death there is no one to resurrect him while Stannis and Melisandre are down south.

[@godemperorofmankind3.091]

jon wouldnt be stabbed

[@JB-xl2jc]

Well, Jon gets stabbed because he brought the remnants of the wildlings south because the Northern army was destroyed and thus couldn't reinforce the Wall (and so Jon used the wildlings as replacements). If the Northern army wins and can spare men for the wall, maybe he never even does so.

[@Th1sUsernameIsNotTaken]

@@JB-xl2jc That's in the show. IN the books they stab him to death for trying to get involved in a war, which is directly against their code. Many weren't happy with him letting the Wildings through, but that alone wasn't enough for a mutiny.

[@darklighter8968]

Well... do u think these jackasses would try to fuck with Jon, knowing that Robb is KotN? I reckon they would have had a brotherly drink and some laughs, comparing how one left as a bastard and now is commander, while the other just a young heir and now fking king. Yeah i dont think they would have had the balls to as much as sneeze without the Stark bros approval.

[@anonperson3972]

Another potential option for endgame is that they will side with Dany. This is possible because the Starks originally made their oath to the Targeryans and used the fact that they were no longer in power to justify their move for independence. When faced with a Targeryan with three dragons and a huge army they could change their mind and maintain their honour.

[@TheChristianImperialist]

Dany's father killed Robb's grandfather and uncle, its the same injustice Eddard recieved.

[@mandodw2341]

@@TheChristianImperialist She could apologise and acknowledge he was mad because the Lannister’s are gone by the time she’s back in this timeline her “conquest” will be a bit different this time. She had people on her council that would have had experiences with the starks if she can’t remember any herself. There’s also the info of Jon being her nephew and with her under the belief she is the only one left of her bloodline it’s in her favour to keep him around.

[@warmike]

Specifically because that Targaryen is a young unmarried woman. It's not that important whether Robb swears fealty to Dany or not as their children will have it all either way.

[@robertsmiley2207]

It's simple Robb could have won by ignoring his mother and sending her home to raise bran and rickon the son's that actually needed her and not marrying Talisa

[@LFC_Fan23]

One of the times Robb ignored Cat was when he sent Theon to Pyke to ask Balon for help. Look how that turned out. If Cat had went to Winterfell, she'd have probably died making the connection Robb has the Riverlands and the Eyrie less secure. Like it or not, Catelyn was vital.

[@sheru.punjabi]

The show villified Cat. In the books, she is Robb's mentor

[@Gunleaver]

Why does everyone think that marrying a Frey would solve his problems? Edmure married a Frey. He ended up a captive in squalor, having to cooperate with the surrender of his family's castle. The only reason he ended up back in his lordship at the end was through things totally out of his control. The Freys are treacherous and self-serving. Walder's castle is "the Crossing" and is called "The Twins" because it consists of a bridge with two identical castles at either end. Walder Frey is Lord of a Double Crossing. This is the author telling us that they are traitors by nature. They plotted this with other enemies of the Starks. Roose didn't stab him, because of his marriage, and they played Tywin Lannister's theme song when they started the massacre. What are they going to do, tell Ramsey Bolton's father "the deal is off, Robb's going ahead with the wedding." Are they going to tell Tywin and Joffrey "Sorry, we're not going to carry out our plot, we've got a new son-in-law!"? If Robb marries Walder's daughter, it's going to be HIS wedding with crossbowmen playing Rains of Castamere. Except he doesn't have a Stark uncle holding Winterfell whom they will need Robb alive to get him to surrender. The Lannisters promised Winterfell to the Boltons and were plotting to have Tyrion take it later anyway, so they don't need Robb alive for anything. His wedding would have ended with him being dragged not to the honeymoon suite to consummate the marriage, but a quiet room to be murdered. Or, given what assholes the Freys are, possibly the battlement to watch his army being massacred while feasting, before they push him over. Besides all that, if, as many people seem to believe, the story's message is "honor gets you killed" why would they have a major character die for a dishonorable action of breaking a promise? If Robb's murder was the outcome of his own actions and choices, that completely contradicts "honor gets you killed" because he is getting killed for DIShonor! No, the only way this all makes sense is that Walder Frey basically sold Robb out to get in on the winning side after the Lannisters had taken the Baratheons out of play and made an alliance with the Tyrells and Martells. It had nothing to do with anything Robb did or didn't do, and everything to do with Walder's selfish and treacherous nature. As for sending Catelyn home, Robb actually did need her, and the boys were more or less okay at home. Catleyn didn't ruin anything for him. She's a victim of her society's expectations, which tell girls growing up that as long as they follow the rules and are dutiful and faithful wives, daughters and mothers, everything will work out and they will be taken care of. So when everything is falling apart around them, because the author wants to the Starks to lose everything in order to set up their dramatic underdog triumph, Catelyn blames herself. And way too many readers simply take her self-doubts and recriminations at face value and blame her.

[@johnnynieves6362]

​@@sheru.punjabi She f***** him over when she released Jamie even in the books

[@jedodedo]

"Bran can become the 3-Eyed Useless" I- 💀

[@TheFandomeClips]

😂 I mean I don't know what else to call him lol. Thanks for watching! Liam

[@kevyndelva2782]

you can't just dismiss the Lannister's basically holding Sansa hostage as the sole reason Robb didn't kill Jamie.

[@duecansam1248]

That's why you leave Catelyn at home. Holding out hope that they wouldn't kill Sansa after they already killed Ned is naive. Killing Jamie is the best option. As Rob's counsel would have wisely encouraged him to do. Thus keeping Karstarks at your side.

[@kevyndelva2782]

@@duecansam1248 Agreed but killing Jamie turns Sansa's death from a possibility to a guarantee.

[@Edmures_rampant_manhood]

​@@kevyndelva2782 charge it to the game🤷🏾‍♂️🤣

[@MrBell-iq3sm]

@@duecansam1248 In the books Catelyn was repeatedly sent away by different people, who gave her prudent orders, yet she inserted herself into the conflict time and again. And she was left at home, when she stayed in Riverrun, where Jaime was held captive. A much saver place than the field.

[@Th1sUsernameIsNotTaken]

@@kevyndelva2782 Disagree. Tywin might be extremely upset by it happening, but he isn't a fool. Joffrey killing Ned makes it justified. If he still has hopes for winning, he NEEDS Sansa to attempt to bring in the North after the war.

[@business_casual_rex]

The longer the video the better! Great content

[@lupin5489]

I love how dealing with the Boltons basically amounts to gerrymandering or “packing and cracking”

[@TheFandomeClips]

Aye, all I know if is that if I were Rob I'd have been keeping a closer eye on the house who has been my ancient enemy for hundreds of years, regardless of how nice and cordial the current Lord of the dreadfort is with me, their dam banner is a flayed member of house stark if my memory serves me right, not the guy I want to trust with big jobs and large forces 😂 Thanks for watching! Liam

[@duecansam1248]

It's a great strategy really. Have the honor of serving as our vanguard. You will probably all die but you will redeem your selves in our eyes. Boltons will have no choice and will lose a lot of men and be forced into an honorable alliance.

[@TheKonkaman]

This was the perfect length, i enjoyed the short quick ones but always wanted more

[@shifterverse]

Thanks Konka! We're looking at branching out to lengther videos all round! Thanks for watching! -Liam

[@gifs_for_the_peasantry]

Bonus: if Rob Manager to kill the mountain he could send the head to Prince Doran. With the Lannisters seemingly losing the war the Martells might want to get their vengance quickly, before Tywin is dead. With the head of the mountain they would be more inclined to ally with the north

[@fran3ro]

I don't think Robb knew about the hate the Martell had for the mountain and the Lannister

[@beaubellamy2999]

The “send Ramsey” was kind of a younger in cheek line but I think that is the strategy for the Bolton and Freys. You have your Northern enemies fight each other and if Roose does betray you he has to do it then and join the Freys in which case you have the war for the North right then and when it’s over you indisputably have united the North.

[@merengueatang4]

The only things I would change/add would be to make sure he has a strong, legitimate heir, possibly by legitimising Jon, but also it's not impossible that they could hold off the Targaeryans in the same way Dorne did, by essentially using guerrilla tactics and their knowledge of the land to quickly strike at valuable targets before disappearing back into the snow.

[@shifterverse]

It's a thought and it's speculated it was also harder to invade the north for the Targaryen's because of the frequency of Wargs. Warged Dragons are a scary prospect. I like the legitimising Jon idea and wish I'd stuck it in and explored it a little more than a quick point at the end. Thanks for watching! -Liam

[@hectordavidhernandezgonzal9356]

I dont think they could do that. When Aegon got to Westeros, Torrhen Stark, the last King in the North, kneeled because he saw the bloodshed and eventual defeat that the Targeryans will produce. There is no hope of winning against dragons, at least not from the Starks since we see the situation in the past.

[@VioletAeonSnowfield]

@@hectordavidhernandezgonzal9356 Aegon and his dragons were a far greater threat that Dany and her dragons. For one thing, Aegon's dragons were older during the war; and for another far more important thing each of Aegon's dragons had a rider. Dany's dragons are strong, but they lack tactical know how. With the exception of whichever dragon she happens to be riding, they really only act as brute force; and they act as unit. Aegon's dragons, given each had their own rider could act tactically and could safely separate - something that actually did happen. Aegon, his sister, and his queen were able to lead multiple armies at the same time with each army having a dragon and a rider. There was no winning against that. But just Dany and her dragons? Compared to Aegon and his dragons, she's barely even a threat.

[@indigomoraes7105]

The dornish used guerrila warfare essentially retreating from their strongholds, poisoning wells and overall taking a very strenuous approach to avoid direct confrontation from the royal army. In the northerners case I believe it would be much harder to mobilize enough men for quick engagement and retreat due to snow and weather conditions, not to even mention the means of supplying an army through winter. Yes, winter has always been the norths biggest ally during war for defensive purposes, its chokepoints and strongholds certainly make it almost unconquerable from the neck upward, but its a whole different story when you include dragons.

[@Outlaw8908]

@@indigomoraes7105Yes, but if I recall Dragons are not fond of the weather in the north. Then there is the age of the dragons, they are not that old. Powerful? Yes. But not Vhaegar, Balerion, or the third dragon of the conquest. There is also a distinct lack of tactics on Dany’s end. She would have a hard time with it, especially in supplies, disease, and weather attrition. Sure she could burn the strong holds, but as with Dorne it would not work. There is also historical examples of hard winters to observe as well. So the argument is a bit more… Do the Starks have the guts to fight a hard battle of Fabian tactics against Dragons.

[@gerstein03]

I think if Robb had gone to treat with Renly himself, he'd've left with the Tyrells at his back and possibly the rest of Renly's army as well. Obviously he'd be made to marry Margery immediately but I imagine the Tyrells would see Robb as the horse to bet on given how he was beating Tywin. Plus he'd finally have a safe place to stash Jaime

[@TheFandomeClips]

Agree with everything apart from a safe place to stash Jaime! those Tyrells are slippery devils 😂 Thanks for watching!Liam

[@gerstein03]

@@TheFandomeClips the Tyrells are slippery but they'd never betray someone their daughter is married to

[@orlandorolon7338]

I think if rad had treated with renlybhimself he would have at least had an alliance with stannis or renly even if it meant giving up the northern crown again. And at best and alliance with house Baratheon and and the lords of the storm lands and the reach

[@chigbomichaelofomata2874]

This isn’t true…the tyrells wanted an alliance with the future crown and not the north

[@giorgiamoretti6642]

@@chigbomichaelofomata2874 yes but the tyrells at their core want the best growth for their family, if renly dies and the Lannister are not an option, the tyrells will revaluate and restart their waiting game, as they have always done. and if stannis looks like the winner their only option is Robb or Dany and at that point they do not have the infos to go for her

[@Uzair_Of_Babylon465]

Fantastic video keep it up you're doing amazing things

[@ashleybies1694]

In depth is great ~ thanks!

[@VampireNewl]

I'm pretty sure Walder Frey would actually be quite happy with a direct marrige, he saw nothing wrong with marrying his daughter to Edmure, he has no real shortage of daughters and there's nothing stopping him from going behind everyones back and doing the red wedding if he thinks he's gonna loose.

[@shifterverse]

I think with direct marriage he's gained some lawful advantages that become burdens in terms of betrayal. I think if he ties himself to the starks legally through blood he gains a lot of what tywin can offer him (though admittedly not exactly as much) but I'm not sure if without the disrespect of been snubbed and already having already achieved significant status that the risk of turn cloaking becomes worth it. Especially if Rob follows our suggestion of ethier depleting or redistributing the Boltons. Thanks for your 2 cents (they help us make the flowing videos more air tight logic wise) and thanks for watching! Liam

[@bayarsejar5831]

It would be very hard to do a red wedding when there would be no wedding to happen at all because the marriage already happened so it would be hard to try and get them to do it

[@VampireNewl]

@@bayarsejar5831 Red Box Social?

[@bayarsejar5831]

@@VampireNewl what?

[@EmperorJohn]

I actual prefer this length it has more......DETAIL!!!

[@shifterverse]

😂 thanks for watching! -Liam

[@heathhelm4210]

And also more passion, more energy, and more footwork… Great video.

[@rundowngameing]

Currently 4:44 in the morning and I discovered your channel down the rabbit hole I go

[@imahorse4960]

I want to add a couple of points to this. First point, after the Robb-Stannis truce ends even if Stannis have a hard time attacking the North, the Riverrun however is open to him. Robb, as the king in the North & Riverrun (Riverrun did come under him), has to defend them. As their king and for the blood bond between them. Stannis has to siege Riverrun and bring Robb to south again. And if he has the Tyrells, he'll have the soldiers needed for this campaign. Secondly, successful negotiations is the best case scenario against dragons. However, there's one way of dealing with dragons if all negotiations fail. Do what the Dornish did. Guerilla warfare. Dorne did not bend the knee to Aegon the conqueror and his successors for....100 years or so? I forgot. Anyway, they didn't face the Targaryen army in open battle. They vacated their castles. The dragons burned their castles sure, but there wasn't anyone in them. They ambushed, raided soldiers on the ground. IRRC, more targaryen soldiers were killed while trying to occupy Dornish lands than during the invasions. In the end, no matter how many dragons you've got, to control a region and it's people you need men on the ground. They even managed to killed Aegon's sister queen and her dragon. Yes, Dorne lost a lot of people and still came under Targaryen rule. But they did that on better terms than any other kingdom, with a diplomatic / marriage alliance. The North will suffer greatly. But it's an option.

[@TheSamuraijim87]

No, it's not an option. The North is not Dorne, where the climate is always warm, nor is it arid like Dorne, with little of value to destroy. It has huge open lands, which are required for the small amount of farming the North can manage. The North is also on a very tight schedule. The longer they fight the south, the more time is spent not focusing on the conflict beyond the wall, which is where the north needs to be looking. The North also needs to keep an eye on the calendar, since as all Northmen are aware, winter is coming, and the northern population cannot survive being out in the cold of winter, because exposure to the winter is certain death. Even in the novels, where fighting is almost entirely in the south, the individuals in the northern army are extremely aware of the need to end the war and complete one last harvest before winter. The North has no navy and without southern food and supplies, it will eventually starve.

[@elijy6160]

Hey there, a couple of points. 1) Alliance with Renly and/or Stannis: losing a Kingdom, nevermind two, is a huge loss to the Iron Throne, as it basically sets up a precedent for independence for the other 6. This is the reason why Renly's proposal wasn't to receive some genuflection from Robb, but to let him style himself as King while also remaining a vassal - albeit more autonomous - to the Iron Throne. This is the same situation as with Dorne, where Doran is called Prince (because that was their title, but it'd be the same as King in their independent times). As such, Robb would be put in a difficult spot: losing the Riverlands (as the IT would likely not allow two kingdoms to unite) and the respect of the North (since they made it clear they want independence) or fight once more against the Iron Throne, this time controlled by the Baratheons. At this point they might be in luck, with the Vale siding with them, or with Stannis as King, which basically assures no great house would be loyal to the man. If Renly is King, however, and the Tyrells are with him, it's going to be a difficult war. 2) Geography: the Riverlands aren't the North. The main issue here is that the Riverlands aren't as defensible as the North. The rivers don't cover all of their borders, and they don't have other geographical chokepoints to defend. This means that in every situation (against Stannis or Renly), Robb would have to fight against an enemy focused only on him in a difficult terrain to defend. If he stays there, he might lose due to numbers, if he leaves for the North, he will have lost the respect and control of the Riverlanders. You made very good points, but I think that on top of everything you said, the North needs the Vale to side with them as well. Enjoyed the video a lot and absolutely love these what-if discussions!

[@shifterverse]

Thanks for the input 👍 jolly good stuff! Yeah this bloody universe is so hard to "what if" scenario, its so well crafted and a hell of a lot of thought has already been put into the logic, so its dan hard to deviate and keep it as consistently logistically sound 😂 Thanks for the kind words and thanks for watching! Liam

[@elijy6160]

@@shifterverse Absolutely! And we can't even factor in everything that happens with Bran, which is the main thing in the final fight against the WW (D&D kinda forgot of course) as you already mentioned in the vid!

[@Luwi1996]

Yeah the riverlands are kind of the norths biggest weakness. Was it ever explained what their long term goal (besides not getting raided) was? Were they planning to become indepent as well, or join the kingdom the north? Or would Edmure just have sworn loyalty to Stannis or Remly?

[@Dell-ol6hb]

@@Luwi1996 no that's another major problem with the war is that Robb kinda had zero concrete goals once Ned was executed and so the whole point of calling his banners was gone, and then the Northern Lords in their foolish fervor crowned Robb as King and they began an aimless war of independence against the Iron Throne. The problem with this is that they just do not have any real goals for the war besides become independent which is pretty vague, and this is only made worse by the fact that they have way less manpower and resources than their enemies, and the Riverlands are a nightmare to defend since it's being attacked from every side besides the North and the Vale.

[@frankjennings4489]

I don’t think this scenario included the Riverlands becoming part of the North. They just united to protect and then avenge Ned Stark. Once Stannis is King, he may even allow them to remain neutral in his war against the North, as not doing so would just force them into Robb’s hand.

[@Futurist94]

Love the strategic long take on the conflict! You're going to be getting more subscribers for sure

[@TheFandomeClips]

Thanks Dillon! We've always tried to deliver our takes in a "friends sat around the table at a pub/bar talking geeky what ifs" format. We're trying to get a bit more thoughtful now 😂 Thanks for watching Dillon! -Liam

[@Ian-zf5ss]

Amazing video. I was shocked to see that ur channel only had 3K subs.

[@TheFandomeClips]

Thanks Ian! Aye we're quite shocked at the reach we've had so early, we're both extremely grateful and a little overwhelmed by it to be honest!Thanks for watching!

[@Ian-zf5ss]

@@TheFandomeClips All deserved. I would love to see some content on the source material as well (asoiaf books) kinda like Alt Shift X does. These in depth analysis videos make the asoiaf so much fun to delve into. Let’s hope that George R R Martin release the Winds Of Winter soon

[@glowhoo9226]

There is one thing I think could factor in when Dany comes knocking. Brandon Snow seemed convinced that his weirwood arrows that he crafted with blood magic would be able to kill Aegon’s dragons. He never got the chance to test this because Torrhen bent the knee. I think that in this scenario, bran would come south, tell them about the vision of Brandon Snow, and they would repeat it, going on to kill Drogon. Rhaegal and Viserion escape. Rhaegal later ends up bonding to Jon, and Dany is left riding Viserion. Leaving us a dragon rider showdown between aunt and nephew. Resembling the duel between Daemon and Aemond over the God’s Eye.

[@TheFandomeClips]

Epic!!! would be a sight to see! Thanks for watching! -Liam

[@darth3261]

Rhaegal would never betray Daenerys, she had a special bond to all three of her dragons despite only riding Drogon. She wasn't called Mother of Dragons for nothing.

[@robbiewira5344]

@@darth3261but it’s stated dragons only bond to one person and one person to dragon fully so there’s definitely a chance Jon being targ he could bond a dragon of hers easily

[@ragingjavier0075]

Tom was right. Walder Frey was always looking for the best option for his house to make them stronger and Robb breaking his oath was a huge slight to him so his revenge was justified in his eyes but the marriage fulfilled would have made him happy. He was so invested he even wanted to marry more of his children to the Starks and gave Robb some of his troops with his own blood squiring for Robb in battle to represent the Freys union to the Starks.

[@TheFandomeClips]

Exactly! We didn't mention it but they had a bunch of Freys become Robbs squires and they were seemingly upset when they were recalled before/during the red wedding. Hitching his cart to Robb was a win win for Walder, married off a couple of his children to a prominent house and was no longer the butt of the joke when he daughter becomes Queen of the north and with the North + The Riverlands they were going to become quite the power, especially if they got the Vale on side too, its basically the Northern Kingdoms with Walder in a juicey notable position. -Thom

[@BDnevernind]

I agree that Tom is right but who the F is Tom? Your channel is like 2 weeks old and you're already assuming everybody knows who's behind it?

[@TheFandomeClips]

I mean... its like 5 months old i think.... :p I'm Thom - The Editor and sometimes voice and narrator - and Liam is the one who Wrote and Voiced this piece, there's 2 of us :D Welcome to the Channel @Brain D

[@shifterverse]

​@@BDnevernind haha we're trying to start off on the right foot and be personable, as much as its more often than not my voice you hear, Tom puts in a ton of work and also gives an extensive 2 cents on the scripts so I like to acknowledge him as much as possible 😂 thanks for watching! Liam

[@BDnevernind]

@@shifterverse Awesome thanks for the replies fellas. Are you a show-only channel? Ha and yeah the 2 weeks remark was pure snark, glad you took it well.

[@rumbabygal-5758]

Can’t wait for your channel to blow, this made me feel much better after a nasty day at work dealing with Boltons of my own😭

[@TheFandomeClips]

Get your equivalent of Arya to sort them out!!!! Thank you for the kind words and thanks for watching! -Liam

[@El-Toro-Nica]

I love this version!!!!! More details the better!!!

[@alibekmurataliev9979]

Imagine the scenario, where after the successful war, Robb abolishes house Bolton and places new house instead with the Theon in charge. And because Theon always wanted to be Stark he takes a new name Greystark (Greyjoy plus Stark), thus reviving the extinct cadet Stark house and becoming one of the loyal vassals.

[@tezz2698]

And why would he do that if Roose didn't betray him.

[@alibekmurataliev9979]

@tezz2698 I am not saying, it doesn’t matter. I like the scenario and the idea of the outcome

[@darth3261]

Sounds like bad fanfic, destroying a northern house without motive and planting a Greyjoy in its place would be a very unpopular decision, even though nobody likes the Boltons, without motive I don't see the other houses supporting Robb on this.

[@skeletonbuyingpealts7134]

At least use Ramsay as a motive

[@Gunleaver]

@@darth3261In that kind of situation, every House immediately starts thinking "what if I'm next?" Yeah, the Bolton's are assholes, but what if the Stark in Winterfell turns out to be an asshole someday, and Robb's abolition of House Bolton has set a precedent that they can do this, and new Asshole Stark can turn around and do it to families that are not evil, but who have crossed him. Also, on the occasion that such a punishment is merited, such as for rebellion or treason, just slotting in a guy who brings nothing to the table except his friendship with Robb is also going to aggravate the other Northern Lords. After all, the Boltons are not going to hand over the keys to the Dreadfort and slink off into oblivion without a fight. The Starks are going to have to fight and crush them. And to do that, they need the help of their bannerman. So the Manderlys and the Glovers and the Karstarks and Umbers are all going to have to bleed and spend money ... to make Theon Greyjoy a powerful lord? What's in it for them? If Robb is going to wipe out the Boltons, MAYBE he can put one of his favorites in as Lord of the Dreadfort, but he's going to have to hand over a lot of the Boltons' former lands to the other lords or else grant them other favors. And there is also the point that the Greyjoys were historic enemies of the North and Theon came to Robb's attention as a hostage for his father's compliance. Presenting him as a candidate to replace the Boltons is going to make all sorts of noble families object and present their own candidates. What about Robett Glover, younger brother of the master of Deepwood Motte, who seems to be one of the more accomplished commanders in the North. Or the Greatjon's uncles, or Wyman Manderly's younger son Wendel, or one of Rickard Karstark's sons or his uncle Arnolf. All good Northmen, whose families have served House Stark loyally for centuries. Who is this punk kid, the youngest son of a glorified pirate, that he deserves to be elevated over their own?

[@schleimhafer3990]

that is my opinion(books): 1.don‘t give Bolton any Comands (he was the reason 12000 deaths). 2. tell edmure about your plans to trap the lanisters in the westerlands. 3. try to get other lords of vale 4.keep jaime at riverrun save. 5. keep theon 6. marry in a better house than westerling

[@schleimhafer3990]

*for 12000

[@Aredel]

3: Lisa Arryn made her stance clear that the knights of the Vale were forbidden from joining the conflict. In the books, the Lords of the Vale begged her to declare for Robb, but she refused and chose to remain neutral. Defying your liege lord is an express ticket to the hangman's noose. 4: Robb already pointed this out at the start of Season 2. Leaving Jaime behind is an extremely dangerous notion because someone on the chain of command will receive the dreaded letter from Tywin: "Free my son and you'll be showered in riches that you can scarcely dream of. Refuse and your entire family will be put to the sword." As Robb said, he trusts his bannermen with his life, but not Jaime's. The best move to keep him close or to kill him.

[@schleimhafer3990]

@@Aredel you are confirming my point" they where begging her." do you really think timid lisa could do anything against powerfull lords like the bronze john

[@AKAGhostPhoenix]

Subbed! I needed more videos to watch while I edit.

[@Alex-wk2xf]

an interesting thing to think about is would jon still be alive at all if the events played out like this? jon was only brought back because the red woman was nearby to bring him back, but if the starks still rule the north then the watch likely would've sent to them for help against the wildlings instead of Stannis

[@AkumaDaniel-dz1oe]

So glad I subscribed to this channel!!!

[@TheFandomeClips]

Thanks Dan! We're glad to have your support!

[@ddess2030]

I like both lengths. More detail is always great but I really like the short ones too.

[@shifterverse]

Thanks Ddess, we're looking to start been more selective with our vids and make them longer! Thanks for watching! -Liam

[@robertsmiley2207]

Nothing is better than hearing your Bannerman yelling the King 👑 in the north that shit gets me hype every single time it never fails

[@TheFandomeClips]

THE KING IN THE NORTH!!! Aye was a hairs on the back of the neck moment! Thanks for watching! Liam

[@brendanrego5018]

Wonderfully well made video. Bravo!

[@Foretelling]

Oh yeah man I like this channel. Very easy sub. Bring on more of this sort of thing.

[@danielbulmer299]

so glad to see a longer video these just have something about them

[@TheFandomeClips]

Yep, should have seen the size of the script ! 😂

[@danielbulmer299]

@@TheFandomeClips 😂can imagine good job though

[@shifterverse]

Oi Tom you slagging off my overly long and wordy scripts? 😂

[@lubeall9285]

Great video, found this channel from this video, more content like this, I think you should go with 15-30 minute videos, this was fantastic, I haven’t watched a short but I assume it’s the same quality.

[@TheFandomeClips]

The shorts were us "testing the waters" so to be speak, Tom puts a hella lot of effort into the editing side of things and I do my best to make sure the audio and music good as can be! Now we've found some working formulas we're looking at longer vids! Thanks for the input buddy and thanks for watching! Liam

[@SnowTheParrot]

Although none of this is groundbreaking (in fact I think it's very obvious how they could've won), it's cool hearing it and seeing it in video form. I like how you break it down. Thanks for the video! Would love more!

[@KamikazeCommie501]

It's not so obvious if you looked at the comments. The video is to start a discussion and plenty of people have contradictory ideas down here. Too bad most people never check their reply notifications on this site.

[@JervisGermane]

One thing I always think of, even the way it went down in the books, is that it's well-established in this culture that a king can have more than one wife. I think Robb should have made clear to Walder that Jeyne/Talisa was his lady wife and would be the mother of the Stark lordly line while his Frey wife would be his queen and her offspring the King in the North's royal line, the heirs to his throne. He could've named Walder Warden of the Crossing, and maybe made his rank equal to that of Riverrun rather than subordinate to it. That would have been enough to keep the Freys. If the Freys never desert, neither do the Karstarks, and without the splintering of his forces Robb would've probably won the war the way he was already planning to.

[@darth3261]

Can you tell me which king other than Aegon the Conqueror had more than one wife?

[@JervisGermane]

@@darth3261 Maegor the Cruel did

[@KaiHung-wv3ul]

Polygamy is seen as a grave crime by the Old Gods and the Faith of the Seven and even the Targaryens stopped doing it after Maegor.

[@heloisx1015]

It wasn't necessary to tell Walter Frey about this. Robb could have done this before the marriage, securing his relations with Frey and his mistress (Talissa). Like Bolton's bastard

[@QO-7]

Nice one guys fun video to watch ! GL in future with this project! Waiting to see video about what Dorn could do anything in that universe XD

[@TheFandomeClips]

Dorne ! Interesting. Im hoping we do Stannis the Mannis next!

[@Charles-In-Charge]

When Stannis takes King’s Landing, Sansa (if she survives) falls under his custody. The Lannisters know that, and that’s why Cersei has planned for her to be killed should the city fall. Sansa isn’t safe; unfortunately the price of a successful Robb/Stannis alliance is Sansa’s life.

[@TheFandomeClips]

I think Littlefinger and Varys were watching over Sansa and while we have no proof I think both for their own reasons likely had a contingency plan to get her to safety should her death be ordered! Fun to think about though and you could well be right! Thanks for watching! LIAM

[@PomorskiWilk]

@@TheFandomeClips There was also the Hound, who was somehow keeping an eye on Sansa

[@jackashmore]

I really wish we could have got an entire show dedicated to Robb and his battle. Not just the side plot it became due to show runners rushing.

[@EVER_PRINCE]

I love coming back to this video to rematch and imagine the ending going that way

[@mycroft_moriarty]

Okay, I don't normally do this with less than a half hour of content, but the quality, logic and realism play out entertainingly and are right up my alley. Sub earned! I appreciate the longer-form videos as it both allows you to play to your strengths of realistic analysis and your presentation, while...bombastic, is not at all grating. It's a good way of delivering the information in a memorable and punchy way, and while sure it could use some polish, you just started and have plenty of time, and plenty of Star Wars (focus more on the "Legacy" material when you exhaust the "gritty" recent material) and GoT/ASOIAF material to assess. To be honest, while I am a lover of the finest tinfoil, watching you tear apart over-the-top fan theories (and things that led to the fan service of the later seasons of GoT) in your trademark style would be rather entertaining.

[@shifterverse]

Oh we're on the tail of the fan theory's, there's a few we want to do a video on! Thanks so much for the kind words and thanks for watching! Liam

[@DodgyHagrid]

Roose Bolton served Robb Stark well and offered him sound advice only to be constantly ignored and dismissed

[@clementtroaming5435]

That was mainly shown in the show, where Roose knew full well of the situations better. In the books, he’s a whole lot worse person than in the TV series.

[@TheFandomeClips]

Clements already covered it. Yeah he's a touch more sympathetic in the show, in the book (combined with the lore and history of the Boltons and Starks) hes much more of a bastard. Thanks for watching!Liam

[@SpunkyGrubber]

Dang dude this was really good and thought out!

[@MrDagren]

I was hoping you'd mention the Riverlands being left vulnerable once Robb decides to go on the defensive in the North.

[@flapablesteak8986]

Maybe a way to at least temporarily deal with Littlefinger would be to use Kat and his love for her to get him to bend the knee. Maybe

[@shifterverse]

Its a good idea, he's a slippery bastard though and I'm not sure if his live for Cat trumps his ambition! Thanks for watching (again 😂) Liam

[@clementtroaming5435]

How about making like a partnership between Baelish & Catelyn to see what kind of results work?

[@parkeydee]

I found your channel because of this video. I much prefer long form videos on tv/movies. Was entertaining and descriptive. Will be subscribing for sure and hope to see even longer videos from you

[@TheFandomeClips]

Wait... even longer?!!! *faints* Thanks ParkeyDee! Hope to see you around in the comments in future :D

[@chigbomichaelofomata2874]

Ur analogy is correct…but one thing is for certain…killing Jaime meant disregarding whatever the Lannisters would’ve done to both Sansa and Arya because they’d both have been killed…stannis wouldn’t also have agreed to any form of temporary truce as long as Robb called himself the king in the north

[@abelrussell5556]

If I’m interpreting his character correctly, Littlefinger isn’t merely a “pick the winning side” kind of guy. He’s in it to win it, and would have been a problem until he’s either on the throne or dead. Maybe his betrayal would have been delayed, but he’s not just going to become a side character and be content

[@flapablesteak8986]

I like the length cos he keep it straight forward and didn’t repeat yourself. Also have you thought about setting up a discord? I think it would be a great opportunity to discuss this topic more and maybe get some ideas for future videos?

[@shifterverse]

We have two discord buddy, they should be linked in the video! If not, Tom what you playing at? 😂 thanks for watching! Lian

[@novatheraven]

Sadly no matter how smart Robb is i think he would send Theon regardless, he trusts Theon like a brother and needs the ship and he offers the ironborn a very sweetdeal. He would always send theon sadly

[@TheFandomeClips]

Aye a healthy dose of "everything comes up roses for the chosen house is applied in these hypotheticals" Thanks for watching! Liam

[@novatheraven]

@@TheFandomeClips facts lol

[@Gunleaver]

It does not matter. Balon has already ordered the Iron Fleet to muster and they are already gathered for war when Theon returns home. This actually worries Theon, because he knows that the order had to have gone out before they learned of his release. In other words, Balon was not taking Theon's hostage status into consideration, he was planning his attack no matter what. He is already treating Asha like his heir and calling her a son. Balon wrote off Theon long before the events of book 2. Even when he greets Theon, he is looking for excuses to find fault with him, noting that he has spent as much time with the Starks as he had with his own family. Balon is trying to rationalize writing Theon off.

[@novatheraven]

@@Gunleaver yeah i also believe he was already going too declare himself king, but Theon Taking winterfell with his inside knowledge of the the castle and how Northern lords work meant he could secure winterfell and “kill the stark boys” (which he didnt but robb thought so which was the worst part and gave him cause too turn home which made him get caught in the red wedding) so all he would need too worry about was victarion at Moat caitlin (he would leave after Balon dies) and Asha(yara) at Torrhen’s Square (same as victarion) so the iron born wouldnt be a big problem

[@albrechtvonwallenstein2952]

It was a good move, on paper, as well, being a sign of good faith, but Balon was already preparing for war, anyways, without caring for Theon's safety. Balon brings up Robb's letter a slight but it likely didn't matter what Robb wrote either. Robb could have probably pledged himself to Balon and Balon would still have found fault in Robb thinking himself worthy of being Balon's subject.

[@mevgod2160]

Much prefer this over ur shorter videos. Please keep ‘em coming

[@TheFandomeClips]

We'll do our best! Thanks for watching! -Liam

[@Borgcow]

Ok, marrying the Frey girl immediately is a really good point, and unlike a lot of the other stuff you mention it’s pretty foreseeable by Cat as she thinks Lord Walder did the exact same thing in Robert’s Rebellion. I do think Walder would have accepted though, I mean he sent almost his entire army off with Robb, including his heir and a bunch of grandsons, so he seemed pretty damn committed to the cause until Robb betrayed him

[@FernandoBaruja]

yeah, robb was a idiot, he was so young..., if he act like Ned in the rebelion, Ned love the dornish girl but for his house go with caty, and win the war, Robb marry with the usseles girl and lost the war.

[@liamroberts2576]

My favorite Lysa Arryn line “AND NOW THERE ALL DEAD!”

[@shifterverse]

My favourite Lysa line "ahhhhhhhhh" as she fell through the moon door 😂😂 Thanks for watching! Liam

[@azhurin8703]

Is this enough detail your grace? Bobby B: Bring me ... MORE!

[@TheFandomeClips]

Liam... bring out the script stretcher. - Thom

[@shifterverse]

More...... Kylo face MOOOOOORRRRREEEEE

[@Luwi1996]

Any thoughts on Robb sending Theo the iron isles later? If Robb kills Jamie maybe the ironman don't attack the north right away and if Robb keeps winning after that and the Lannisters seem to loose, I think Balon could be convinced to attack Lannisport or the reach instead of the north

[@samacadaniel6]

You mentioned several times the Lannister video but I wasn’t able to find it. Can you please link the video?

[@VDA19]

Robb had to ally himself with one of the other contenders. Should've declared for Renly or Stannis, then they would've won quite handily. The mistakes of marrying Talysa/Jeyne, executing Karstark ( should've taken him hostage ), taking his mother to war ( should've let her home, then Jaime doesn't get freed ) and trusting Bolton ( why the FUCK would you trust Bolton ) are all huge.

[@TheFandomeClips]

Was a snowball that kept rolling down hill.. Winter truly was coming. Cat was useful at first, especially with the Frey Negotiations, but perhaps her role should have ended there at that point.

[@i5m1thy]

I agree with Tom with regards to Walder Frey. I think that being married into the North's royalty and the confidence in Robb thanks to his victories over the Lannister's would tip him over the edge and he would throw in with the North. The man's biggest flaw is that he's incredibly greedy and that would be his best offer. An immediate wedding would prevent the Lannisters from dissuading him.

[@ditmars1986]

On how to deal with the boltons robb did in fact kind of send them to die in the books. He set Roose with 18000 foot against Tywin main host creating the opportunity for him to take whispering woods fast with all the horse.

[@soupsandwich685]

This entire video feels like robb stark on his second playthrough breezing through all the correct options

[@bayarsejar5831]

I really loved your video. You talked about some things that I did not think about at all. I would say little finger would be dead if the starks work for Stannis because of Ned’s betrayal by Littlefinger. I would also say that the north might surrender to Dany because they said they did it because they bend the knee to the targaryens because of the dragons so if she came back with 3 then they might just surrender.

[@TheFandomeClips]

Thank you so much Bayar! Aye Dragons are a problem for any medieval society. Especially if only one lingerie has a monopoly on them 😂 Thanks for watching!Liam

[@Marqhll]

I think that if Robb had killed Jaime then there is a 0% chance that Tywin wouldn't have burned the world in order to destroy the Starks.

[@TheFandomeClips]

True, but problem is he couldn't beat Rob head on, that was why the Red Wedding was needed in the first place. If he threw everything he had at Rob in provoked anger, he'd be swiftly put on the back foot. Thanks for watching! -Liam

[@johnnyboogalo4897]

It would have made him careless.Robb wanted to trap him in the westerlands and robb could have done that sooner before the tyrells even join them as tywin would be filled with rage and march right into robbs trap.I actually agree with killing jamie but after robb has secured the westerlands and drive tywin into the trap.

[@zafferung4440]

Quite rightly.

[@zafferung4440]

​@@TheFandomeClips the starks are overpowered. The lannisters should have beaten them easily. But it's a story...

[@phobics9498]

@@zafferung4440 I mean the north was way more militaristic than the south and has a very significant morale advantage for the common soldiers and strong loyalty for the leadership. The only way for the north to lose was basically the red wedding or due to economic circumstances. In a military sense, the north would win and if they didn't, they could just retreat back north and then toss around the enemy force until it had no men in it

[@reid_dreamcatcher6017]

Good video. Totally agree . The grey area is the whole frey situation. But the right away marriage is key for sure.

[@brentbradshaw221]

I like this style. When will a video about Stannis come out? Is there a how to gain victory for the smaller houses like Tully's or the freys or are you only doing only the great houses like the Martells? Also Rob needed the bridge quickly wether he could take it or not is meaningless if he is not fast enough although Walder probably would take the offer.

[@charlottewalnut3118]

Realistically while he has Jamie, what he should do is have Jamie write a letter to Balón essentially telling him they’ll give him a crown and insulting him directly

[@techngames49]

Walder Frey has no shortage of daughters. He can still betray Robb and sacrifice one of his daughters in exchange for the Riverlands.

[@TheFandomeClips]

That's a fair point, but marrying to Rob might really give them a boost up that social ladder so to speak.

[@clementtroaming5435]

Actually you are right. Walder Frey has some gains & little to no loses if he betrays Robb in the Red Wedding. That’s due to the fact that he is eyeing the Crown too & keeping his options open.

[@albrechtvonwallenstein2952]

Even in canon, the Iron Throne didn't give him the Riverlands, though. Riverrun, itself, was given to a Frey but Littlefinger was made Lord Paramount and was, on paper, supposed to rule from Harrenhall.

[@fightsports66]

My first time seeing the channel, who is Tom? Enjoyed the analysis, thumbs up.

[@jack-o-claus]

tom was right on, concerning the Freys. before the marriage pact was broken, they sent thousands of troops and were already bleeding for a Stark victory. calling the bluff would ensure, at the least, the troops wouldn’t leave the army high and dry.

[@carloscollazoii]

I believe that if Robb Stark had the marriage done immediately, it would have forced Walder to commit. As a bonus, Walder was getting his heart's desire-his house would have the legitimacy of the bloodline of a king through the children of Robb Stark. I think these two reasons make it unlikely for Walder to betray Rob later if Rob simply had kept his word.

[@jamesives4375]

8:47 Frey was never above flipping but he only did it in the end because Rob married another girl and “spat” in his face. I think he would take the marriage then and there.

[@jakejohnson2334]

These are a lot of fun, Thanks. My reoccurring thought through a couple of these is the Reach commands the largest army (especially in the books), and if memory serves, it's not close. I know the reach is the most populated, the home of chivalry, best provisioned, and maybe the richest. It seems any attempt to siege highgarden would result in the other reach houses coming to lift the siege, which isn't a great place for Robb to be, especially with a smaller force. That to me is a losing strategy without some serious luck. I think you have to hope that they stay out of it, and give them incentive(s) to do that. So here is my go: Securing the Freys is needed, making the wedding happen right away is the best option, and keeping Theon around is obviously important too, or send him with Cat. Machinations 1 & 2 are to get Dorne and the Vale in the fold, Dorne seems easy because they have more independent nature, and well established hate for the Lannisters. It may end up being pretty difficult because of their secret schemes, but worth a shot and the timing is pretty convenient. The vale would need to be won subverting lysa, which again wouldn't be an easy feat, but it seems most of the lords know lysa is insane. Make it known that Jon Arryon was murdered, use the Blackfish who probably has more loyalty earned than Lysa does, do all you can get the Royces and Graftons on your side (marriages, lands, titles) and go from there. Give the Lords an option outside of Lysa. Rob needs envoys going everywhere. He has a few victories, he needs friends. My hope would be that the Reach would wait it out to pick the winning side, and I would send an envoy to encourage that (which seems possible because of their actions in Roberts rebellion, but unlikely because if ambitions they hold, and the fact they are nervous from rebelling Renly, and picking the wrong side). My longshot would be to see if you can incept the idea for the reach to marry into Dorne, and split the kingdom at the god's eye, and Dorne and Martells rule the south. (Doran has an ambitious daughter Arianne, and at this point they know Visarys is dead so Dorne's scheme is melted, but don't know about the dragons, so that makes this the best time to sway them) Willas, the eldest son of the Tyrells is unmarried and actually has a close connection with oberon despite him being the one to injure Willas's leg. He seems would be a good king: is praised by the queen of thorns (no small feat even for family), has connections to Dorne, was almost already was married to Arianne, and she seemed pretty into it. But if you wanted to just go with crowd pleasers, and do the knight of flowers AKA the peoples champion, and Arianne who is also loved in Dorne. The best you can get from Stannis is a truce, take it for now, and plant some seeds to reshape the south. Convince Stannis not to take kings landing, but instead option A, starve out the city a bit and it will basically fall for you, the fact that the city is tinderbox is hinted at several times, and a short siege would save men and the gates would probably open on their own with betrayers and riots. But the ideal option B would be to knock out Tywin by coming up the kings road and pinching Tywin's forces with foot troops of the north (hopefully this is Jon Umber, or a Mandrelly leading and not roose), kings landing will keep, and probably get worse. If he ignores you and attacks kings landing, I think Tywin goes south regardless and that should do good damage to whomever survives. All the while subtly working on the Martell-Tyrell Southern kingdom schemes, and knocking out or heavily weakening the reigning and rebelling army should help persuade them. This may compromise Robbs honor, but if it's going to work at all, it probably won't take much effort, plant the seed and let it grow, both houses are schemers, they can take a hint. Stannis won't be loved by the people for his god, and won't be able to hold his kingdom, and without the Tyrells the Lannisters fall. If Cat meets littlefinger while talking to the Tyrells, he may even give her the Vale, for a hefty price (maybe Cat... or Sansa... or just Warden of the Vale) This seems optional as the best the Lannisters can do is give the Tyrells a broken kingdom and a awful king for Margery. To be secure in independence, having whoever is ruling the south also be recently independent would be a huge help. Anyone taking the throne by "right" will feel entitled to the entire kingdom, thus Robbs kingdom is at risk. Mellesandre is still an unaccountable wild card, but I think this strategy does well to neutralize littlefinger and Varys as best as possible. You still have dragons and white walkers coming... which is a bummer, but a future problem.

[@giorgiamoretti6642]

the reach will never let itself be ruled by dorne

[@jakejohnson2334]

@@giorgiamoretti6642 Maybe, but this is the best of both worlds. Dorne can play it like Arrianne is the Queen as the eldest child, and the reach can play it like Willis is King. And this would be from kings landing once Tywin and Stanis beat themselves to death. And any internal houses can be married off to Margery or Loras, or the frog (and maybe Tristain). Details to iron out, but nothing Dorane and the Queen of thorns can't handle, and they seem above those petty rivalries. Dorne : gets revenge and power, The reach gets power.

[@LadyQuotes]

I like longer videos! It was really interesting!

[@matthicks1129]

Rob had no chance to take the twins in time without massive losses, its why he made the deal. It wasnt about honor Frey was already negligent in supporting his liege.

[@TheFandomeClips]

Just swim across the river Robb, it's easy, its half fish anyway... -Thom

[@condeeemployee]

Walder son was also married to Tywin sister he literally had closer blood ties to the Lannister than to the Tully's who along with other River Lords have constantly disrespected him throughout his reign.

[@matthicks1129]

@@condeeemployee True, which is why marrying a Frey girl on the spot would have been a good idea.

[@Dustaroo]

I would be completely fine if down the road they chose to remake the show but make it an alternate spin on events and Jamie being killed would be a great split off point and the red wedding never happens and just go fanfic who cares. The idea of tywin going all out after losing his true heir would be compelling.

[@The_Malcontented]

Liam's Stark accent impression is A+; I wish he'd done it even more in the video 🤣