How The American Church Fell Apart | Billy Graham, Dispensationalism, & Premillennialism

[@jamescook5617]

It's interesting that many of the comments seem in denial of the plain truth of history Joel shares here. At least in my experience, eschatology did loom large for me as a teenager. Watching Jack Van Impe, reading the Left Behind series, so many other things... the narrative was certainly casting a shadow to me being here now and raising my family in my now comparatively old age. Israel was a nation again, and tik-tok, the rapture has to happen within a generation of that passing. Well, a generation was 40 years, no, wait 70 years, what are we at now: 2023 - 1948 = 75, so apparently the prophets of late 20th century premillenialism were wrong. It's not that Joel is some snake charmer false teacher leading us away, it's simply a matter of remembering what we were told about timelines and upper bounds for eschatological events and realizing it doesn't add up. I'll grant it was plausible in my youth, but here we are, no secret rapture happened, Israel exists as a nation state for longer than a generation, the version of premill that was popularly exposited was wrong. Not Joel. Simply data. So, how to deal with history as we face it ? Should we stick with premil and find more tortured machinations to extend the meaning of generation ? Or, perhaps, we might look into all those viewpoints that premil dispy's either ignored or lampooned. I remember older folks saying "oh, those presyby's, they think they're going to make the world great for God" as if that was an impossibility. The pessimism about the possibility of working towards a more regenerate culture, it's baked into the cake of the premil dispy storyline. I've had multiple pastors who after making a reasoned case for pursuing Godly action towards social reform would cap it off with "but we just need to preach the Gospel" and "His kingdom is not of this world". The implicit idea has always been things are just going to get worse and worse, so don't sweat it too much, we'll all be dead in heaven soon anyway. So, while my pastors would raise the ire of folks like me who want to be salt and light to a dying world, we're always redirected from any action except personal evangelism. Read Jmac's Romans 13 commentary from circa 1990. He even argues against Christian involvement with protest movements, an obvious reaction to the Moral Majority and Operation Rescue of the 1980's in my view. Serious question, how much did this posture of non-engagement in politics figure into the decline of California into madness ? If we're not salt and light then who can be ? Answer, no one. Jesus is the way the truth and the life. We seem to be focused only on the way and the life, but not so much the truth. I think Joel lays out a very plausible historical sketch on how we got to where we are. Naturally there is more nuance, but to deny the themes of what Joel says here and say it's just strawmen, well, they're strawmen that filled stadiums and sold multiple best selling books. The existence of better arguments doesn't discount the reality that the simple, dumber, arguments have held sway with the masses.

[@DarthBalsamic]

I appreciate that you speak on this continuously. Alot of American Christians behave and believe like this. It's very bizarre, and from day one when I became a Christian I did not like this. This foolishness lends itself to many issues currently plaguing the nation as well, and these sorts of Christians feed it under the guise of fowarding tribulation and the coming of Christ. It reads as a cult to me. I'm a young guy, and the reason, among many, why many young guys have problems with the church, especially with those among the older generation in the church, is because they're seen as creating the issues these young guys have to deal with, and are to their own detriment. The young guys don't get everything right, but this is a point of disdain for them. They see the nations crumbling before them and they haven't had a chance to serve Christ while building a family, a home, and a legacy, yet Christians in America are pushing tribulation and end times instead of salvation and what is right and true. Even discipleship is completely warped to fit this destructive paradigm being forwarded. This Isreal sycophancy(Zionism) is yet another glaring illustration of the dangerous folly of American Christians to them, and myself, quite frankly. Keep speaking on this stuff brother.

[@Ransetsu]

You are not alone in feeling that way.

[@canadiankewldude]

@@Ransetsu *_God Bless_*

[@papaduck2443]

DarthBalsamic, you say that you are young guy and while I dont know your age I believe that for a young guy you have a very good grasp on reality and it is refreshing. One of the biggest reasons our nation is crumbling is because the pathetically lazy christian church has adopted the train of thought, “why polish the brass on a sinking ship,” due to a pre-millenial understanding of scripture. I believed the pre-millenial position for most of my life because thats what I was taught and for most of my life I read the bible with the pre-mil pre-supposition and for all those years there were things that just did not add up or make sense. Then I finally began to dig deeper to try to reconcile these issues I had all these years and I happened to stumble across Jeff Durbin with Apologia Church as well as pastor Joel Webbon, Dr. James White, and many many others that held to a post millenial point of view and when I got rid of my pre-supposition and studied scripture in the correct context everything fell into place and made perfect sense to me. For any christian that thinks that speeding up tribulation is going to somehow cause God to deviate from His plan and do something sooner than He has already predestined is simply rediculous. And, the idea that God would have the church disengage making the world better place and instead let it all go pieces is equally obsurd. This train of thought is destructive instead of constructive and I agree with you that it only serves to cause young men to walk away from the church or never have any desire to start going to church or study scripture. God would have His church work continuously to make the world a better place for coming generations. Stay bold for Christ Jesus my friend and share with your peers (assuming they are young like you) this truth so that they also can learn the truth and work to make this world a better and a more just place for generations to come. God bless!

[@DarthBalsamic]

@papaduck2443 Indeed. Good stuff. Here's my thing, I grew up in bad places. I also grew up with a shoddy family. I know foolishness when I see it. I was not on board with Christianity, as it was illustrated to me, until I was about 18 years old. I grew up in the church, but was a problem for both Christians and atheists alike as I got older. I also grew up watching shoddy church affairs-before and after becoming a Christian-implausible agendas by Christians in America, and so on. Imagine seeing all that while growing up in neighborhoods with gangs, drug dealers and violence. I shouldn't see arbitrary behavior mirrored in the church that I saw in the streets. Before I knew what any of these technical terms of theology were, that I understand now, it was just my own instinct and discomfort with what I was being told because I came from a place where nothing or nobody can be taken at face value. I had no reason to believe Christian Americans on anything because I'd seen no success from them, and then was told to not question questionable things. This only increased after I became a Christian, which got me here today and why it's a relief to see guys like Webbon talking about it. I knew a few years back after I'd researched, prayed, studied and experienced enough that we're way off the rails here. Frankly, it seems to get worse by the day. I would be considered a Right wing guy, but issues like what's been happening over the past few days has been a great contention between myself and many on the Right, especially among those who are Christian. This garbage manifests everywhere on the Right's dealings, worldview, and agendas, and it makes the Right intolerable to a guy like me. I think the binary between Right and Left, is also quite distorted, but that's another subject for another day; either way, the collective dynamic is doing tremendous damage. Those of us, especially younger guys, who call out or question any of what's going on here, are usually entreated with all manner of slurs and perjoratives. My view, based on my own comprehensive work, is very different and reality-based than what is casually thrown around on the American Christian church and Right wing. It's causing us, and the world over, great harm in more ways than one. It's astonishing to watch daily. Fortunately, I'm walking in faith so I can focus on what's important, but this is an ugly situation we're in. I'd be lying if my ability to trust or care for a majority of American Christians wasn't being challenged daily.

[@ThecultofCon]

Anyone wise enough or brave enough to identify the Jew is good in my book. Although it isnt just an obsession that the church has. Zionism is a terror plague on the whole of Earth. These Jews which call themselves jews but are not zjews. The Synagogue of Satan which stands strong and in full control of Earth to this day.

[@joshuascott3428]

As a historical premilinialist i had a slight lifting of my spirit that pastor Webbon actually acknowledges that we are not the same as dispensationalist.

[@awatchman-um7vy]

Nevertheless, you are not Christians, and are the accursed of God. Repent!

[@awatchman-um7vy]

@@christalone71 ,...I know not think who I am speaking to. The totally blind, lost, and the deceived. Yes, I am an unbeliever to your 100% fake christianity. I am a believer in the Bibles Christianity. Those outside of the kingdom of God consider the truth of the Bible to be wickedness. They hate the truth of the Bible and those who bring them this truth, just and your Godless fathers hated Jesus and the truth he spoke to them. I in fact do know you (those I have spoken to) as a tree is known by its fruit. There is no such thing as a rapture. The rapture is a 100% fake manmade CONcept that is only believe and held by those who are Biblically illiterate and outside of the kingdom of God. Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!

[@joshuascott3428]

@@awatchman-um7vy What specifically is non Christian about my view,I would respectfully listen If you said I was in error but to go that far is beyond the realm of your authority

[@awatchman-um7vy]

@@joshuascott3428,...No, it is not beyond my authority,.... "These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee." Titus 2:15 KJV 2, "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3, For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4, And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." 2nd Timothy Ch. 4 KJV You refuse to listen because you refuse to listen to the truth of the Bible (sound doctrine). Your fake manmade rapture is nothing but the fables of Godless men. No Christian believes in the Godless worlds false manmade rapture. It is the kind of thing 2nd Timothy is referring to. Repent!

[@awatchman-um7vy]

@@joshuascott3428 ,....Also,...."So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me." Ezekiel 33:7 KJV

[@unknown36187]

God The Father, God The Son, God The Holy Spirit is in control. Period. Man is not the mover of the Faith in the LORD. Faith is a gift from God. God provides our works He has prepared in advance. It is happening the way it ought to happen.

[@markshaneh]

So when Jesus said your faith has healed you Jesus was wrong 🤔 Or should Jesus have said The sickness I gave you can’t be healed, I’m going to give you special faith to heal the sickness I gave you And I will pretend you had faith and say Your faith healed you 🤔

[@edwardelliott5756]

Excellent sermon. I appreciate your bold and thoughtful preaching.

[@delbert372]

Billy Graham was global evangelism done right, the modern church has many problems IN SPITE of the great example of Billy Graham. All Christians should have great respect for him and thankfulness for how God used him. He was an evangelist, not an Elder in a local church.

[@mikeconnor4736]

Billy Graham was the modern apostle of compromise

[@fritzco55]

2 Timothy 3:16-17 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. This doesn't say all scripture is given for salvation alone, but for all good works.

[@dougnewman3935]

what hammered the Christian church in America wasn’t internecine debates on eschatology; rather it was a plummeting birth rate over decades among Christians. Everyone decided to try to live the good life instead of doing the hard work of raising a large family of believers.

[@rzella8022]

And Hollywood, MSM, and Marxism in the education system.

[@shacker2222]

Having lot of children is not a guarantee everything will be fine in life. Look at the Duggars and the train wreck they caused.

[@impalaman9707]

I belong to a Calvary Chapel and I feel like as Pre-Mil Dispensationalist, we're the ones becoming increasingly marginalised as more people are abandoning that view for Post trib, and we're all alone, still clinging to what we believe. I would argue that didn't cause the American church to fall apart. What caused the American church to fall apart was the "be all things to all people/circus-like" atmosphere of seeker sensitive megachurches

[@tedrobinson5713]

Morris cerullo believed in Mid - Trib which is in his Theology

[@impalaman9707]

@@tedrobinson5713 I meant to qualify that. I knew very few people who hold to a mid-trib position, actually. I think Jim Bakker may have been another, but I'm not sure

[@tedrobinson5713]

@@impalaman9707 He reminds me of a Survivalist hoarding Food in a Bomb Shelter somewhere. He sells Prep Food and other Survivalist Equipment .This is quite evident in his current Program.

[@impalaman9707]

@@tedrobinson5713 Yeah, when you're selling survival food, that makes me think you at least think we're going to go through part of the tribulation

[@paveli1181]

Its always a confluence of factors, not one thing. Also it was a series of steps that built on one another. But premil did contribute in a major way in the way that it interpreted scripture. The obsession with literalism overlaid over eschatology resulted in some really bizarre narratives and practices. All of which made Christians appear insane. And some of them were. Some people should not have been allowed at pulpits.

[@Redo12able]

The problems of the church just keep manifesting from generation to generation. Although interesting, they become tedious and wear thin. This guy is right, it is all about salvation and nothing else. Keep it simple.

[@marymckay7154]

Salvation to and from what?

[@marymack1]

Billy Graham and His Friends is a book written by Dr Cathy Burns. It can be downloaded as a pdf online.

[@unit2394]

Return to robust, confessional, sacramental, historic Protestantism. Not watered down modern evangelicalism.

[@angiemcdonald3097]

How about robust, confessional, sacramental, and liturgical Catholicism, the original? Tiber Swim Team 2016 :)

[@awatchman-um7vy]

@@angiemcdonald3097 ,...The Godless cult of catholicism has nothing whatsoever to do with the Bibles gospel nor its Christianity.

[@unit2394]

@@angiemcdonald3097 I knew someone would comment this lol. I won’t go as far as our friend below here. I think many within Rome are good Christians, but there are some very serious issues with your communion and it’s Biblical and historical claims.

[@zenyattamondatta7757]

In other words, you believe that Jesus will return once the fullness of the Gentiles has been achieved.

[@winburna852]

Joel hit the mark on this one.

[@awatchman-um7vy]

No, actually, he didnt. Joel dose not understand the Bible and is not a Christian.

[@toddott633]

@@awatchman-um7vy Wow, is the accuser of the brethren your father?

[@awatchman-um7vy]

@@toddott633 ,....I have spoken the truth for your edification. For those with ears to hear.

[@toddott633]

@@awatchman-um7vy No, you have judged a brother. It edifies no one. It only exalts you.

[@awatchman-um7vy]

@@toddott633 ,...You are incorrect. We are not brothers. I am inside the kingdom of God, and you are outside the kingdom of God. You are in the kingdom of the Godless world and the worlds (the beasts) counterfeit (antichrist) christianity. The truth I spoke will indeed edify those with ears to hear. Those who do not have ears to hear will revile me for speaking the truth of the Bible and they will accuse me (the actual brethren) as all those who are inside the church and outside of the kingdom of God are the accusers of the real Christians. You are all exactly like your blind, lost, and deceived fathers who killed Jesus for giving them the truth. You are not of the truth, and hate the truth because the truth is, you hate God and the Bibles Christianity. You only want and love the Godless worlds (the beasts) counterfeit (antichrist) christianity that the 100% apostate church (the false prophet) sells/sold you. Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!

[@gloriateff9071]

Excellent, love this

[@timcummiskey1178]

Many good points. 🎯

[@awatchman-um7vy]

Such as?

[@timcummiskey1178]

@awatchman-um7vy listen for yourself watchy, it's a 7 minute clip.😬

[@brenthecht8554]

Right on!

[@marymack1]

According to Spencer Smith, doctrine matters.

[@awatchman-um7vy]

The fact is, both biliy graham and spencer smith are Godless men who are not christians but are deceivers and wolves in sheeps clothing.

[@travismgraham]

Thanks for the video!

[@dannorris8478]

You failed to mention the Evangelical world’s descent from the Reformation doctrine of Sovereign grace to the heresy of synergistic grace, which unfortunately many in the Reformation tradition believe is error but NOT heresy. If you do not believe God is sovereign in salvation then their is no reason to believe he is sovereign over anything else including culture.

[@toolegittoquit_001]

In addition to the ongoing creep of Ecumenism, but that's pretty much a given

[@luboshcamber1992]

@dannorris8478 Nailed it!! All the other problems stem from it. Plus, Premillenialism was the Early Church position so only ignorant or... maybe utterly biased ... person can blame church's decline on it...

[@roddumlauf9241]

@@luboshcamber1992 The Early Church had multiple views on this.

[@dannorris8478]

@@roddumlauf9241 yea well that means nothing they also tried to interpret scripture to accommodate Greek philosophy.

[@luboshcamber1992]

@roddumlauf9241 That is claimed by Postmill and Amill folks over and over again with one little thing missing. Proof. There's always very rare and obscure pieces of some writings they try to bring up and claim that this person "couldn't be Premill..."

[@davewatkins1970]

Theological minimalism is a real problem but he's speaking to broadly on the issue. It's ecumenicalism/ liberalism over the last 100 years that have the largest influence on this. I'm a 1689 BCF guy and Joel is a good example of a theology/doctrinal snob that blames those he differs with on secondary and tertiary matters.

[@the1der]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that lol. But, i understand the sentiment. Also, as one who is split between Historic PreMill and A-Mill, I find it funny when Post-Mill guys act like the Church is the reason for A boy being a girl and the foolishness that is plaguing society, when his whole argument lends to the fact that Post Mill is respected by me but also Bunk, IMO, for the very same things he stated LOL. The reason society will not reach a Golden Age is because society is depraved and warped. Always has been and always will be. To say one day it won't be, is a long-shot hope, not a Biblical guarantee. Period! Irregardless of your end times position (tho disp premill is least of which I agree with), if we're going to chant God is Sovereign and we're going to allow God to use us and we are loyal to the cause, He will draw out His Elect in every generation until the fullness is reached. WE DON'T NEED A GOLDEN AGE, SIR. Be faithful to the Lord. Guys need to stop making things complicated.

[@ben.duffour]

​@@the1derIsaiah 9:6-7 LSB [6] For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. [7] There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of Yahweh of hosts will accomplish this. Psalm 82:1-8 LSB [1] God takes His stand in the congregation of God; He judges in the midst of gods. [2] How long will you judge unrighteously And show partiality to the wicked? Selah. [3] Give justice to the poor and the orphan; Justify the afflicted and destitute. [4] Protect the poor and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked. [5] ¶They do not know and do not understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are shaken. [6] I said, “You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High. [7] “Nevertheless you will die like men And you will fall like any one of the princes.” [8] Arise, O God, judge the earth! For it is You who will inherit all the nations. Isaiah 45:22-23 LSB [22] “Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. [23] “I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. Matthew 13:31-33 LSB [31] He presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; [32] and this is the smallest of all seeds, but when it is fully grown, it is the largest of the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches.” [33] He spoke another parable to them, “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three sata of flour until it was all leavened.”

[@joshcarz]

I wonder why God determined it that way? Wait, I know. For His own glory!

[@keith3362]

It's true if you are a calvinist complaining about the state of the church or whatever you are complaining about what God actually decreed from eternity LOL

[@ginahabig]

I used to like Joel and I agree more than I disagree with his views; however, the focus here is not on encouraging brothers and sisters who need this encouragement he results in rebuke. There is only one real heretical view of eschatology and that is complete spiritualizing the book of Revelation including the return of Christ. All views want to see the great commission fulfilled but we believe there is a difference in how that will be fulfilled along with other logistical things. We all support the same thing. How about the sinfulness of the human heart that even in very good spiritual times still is corrupted? Yes, the church has been lazy and is to blame for how the world has turned out but it isn't the only factor. Let's stop demonizing those with different eschatology views and move on together!

[@luboshcamber1992]

@ginahabig Joel needs to find someone to blame, so he does this. Where were all the Reformed churches during all those years?!? That didn't get to his thinking? Reformed churches in our area are predominantly Dutch Reformed and I can hardly think of more prideful, legalistic and lost groups of people. Are we now gonna blame reformed theology and Ammillenialism for the decline? Joel says something good here and there but he is mostly far out in the weeds of pride and arrogance. Not surprising knowing that he's fanatical follower of Douglas Wilson. And I myself am Reformed. Just not so blinded. We were sleeping like few were. When is he gonna call that out? MacArthur is some sort of Dispensationalist yes he did more work and wrote more books and caused more awakening than half of the Reformed in the whole North America together. Humility is what Joel needs to find. If he won't Lord will humble him.

[@carynborland1549]

I would really like to see the whole sermon, but I have no idea where to get it. There are so many of them and I’m not sure which one this is a part of. And there isn’t a link in the description. Can anybody give me the title or link or something to the full sermon? Thank you.

[@mbfrommb3699]

The reason I come back to comment on this channel is because I like Joel. I just think he's misguided. Let's debunk the idea that "Dispensational premillennialism" is a new idea. We can at least debate the merits if we understand it's not a new idea. Proof the Early Church taught Premillennialism: Barnabas, AD First Century “Therefore, children, in six days, or in six thousand years, all the prophecies will be fulfilled. Then it says, ‘He rested on the seventh day.’ This signifies at the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus, He will destroy the Antichrist, judge the ungodly, and change the sun, moon, and stars. Then He will truly rest during the Millennial reign, which is the seventh day.” Epistle of Barnabas 15:7-9 Commodianus, AD 240 “We will be immortal when the six thousand years are completed.” Against the Gods of the Heathens 35 “Resurrection of the body will be when six thousand years are completed, and after the one thousand years, the world will come to an end.” Against the Gods of the Heathens 80 Victorinus, AD 240 “Satan will be bound until the thousand years are finished; that is, after the sixth day.” Commentary on Revelation 20.1-3 Methodius, AD 290 “In the seventh millennium we will be immortal and truly celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.” Ten Virgins 9.1 Proof that there were teachings from early Christians on Dispensational Premillennialism. Irenaeus (about 180 AD) who wrote his 5 volume works called “Against Heresies” who was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the Apostle John. “In 2 Thessalonians, the ‘falling away’ is an apostasy and there will be a literal rebuilt temple. In Matthew, the ‘abomination spoken by Daniel’ is the Antichrist sitting in the temple as if he were Christ. The abomination will start in the middle of Daniel’s 70th week and last for a literal three years and six months. The little horn is the Antichrist. Against Heresies 5.25 Before the time of abomination (which Irenaeus says is in the middle of the 7 years; after 3 years and 6 months). of his desolation having been made legal, he takes the empire, and, just as it is said in the Psalm: “They have been made for the undertaking for the sons of Lot” Psalm 83:8 The Moabites and the Ammonites shall meet him first as their king. Therefore, when he receives the kingdom, he orders the temple of God to be rebuilt for himself, which is in Jerusalem, who coming into it, he shall sit as God and order that he be adored by all nations, since he is carnal, filthy, and mixed with worthless spirit and flesh…Because the very wicked serpent shall direct every worship to himself. Because he shall put forth an edict so that people may be circumcised according to the rite of the old law. The Jews shall congratulate him, because he gave them again he practice of the first covenant; then all people from everywhere shall flock together to him at the city of Jerusalem and the holy city shall be trampled on by the nations for forty-two months just as the holy apostle says in the Apocalypse, which become three and a half years, 1,260 days. Now whether or not Dispensational Premillennialism is correct or not we can get into now knowing that it was something the early Church fathers taught about. What we have essentially is 2 worldviews. When you believe we are or aren't in the Millennial reign of Jesus it affects your worldview and biblical understanding. If you believe that the Church will prepare the world by building the Kingdom for Jesus's return, your view is vastly different then the Pre-mill view of a satanic entity called the Antichrist leading the world isn war and chaos until Jesus returns and casts him into the Lake of Fire. Pre-mills are looking for The Rapture by Jesus or at least the 2nd Coming but Post-mills see there's a lot of work left to do to create this Christian kingdom ready for Jesus. That we may be another 2000 years away. So who's right? Well Jesus when talking about His return in Matthew 24 says (NLT) 21 For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again. 22 In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones...29 “Immediately after the anguish of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will give no light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. If the Church is sharing the gospel and the world is being saved then why does Jesus call the time just before He returns as the most terrible time of anguish in all of human history. That if He doesn't come back when He does we would cause our own self-extinction. "22 In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive...." Verse 30 And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. Why is all the people on earth in deep mourning when Jesus returns? Revelation 19 We see Jesus return verses 11-16 then in verse 19 19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. How is this beast able to gather the armies of the world to make war against the LORD is the vast majority if not all are saved? The first question we should ask is when did these early Christians think the years 6000 would be? We see here the extensive work Christians have done to create a biblical calendar. amazingbibletimeline.com/ Notice that Adam and Eve are said to have lived 4004 BC. BC is based on our Gregorian 365.25 days per year calendar. In Genesis 7-8 it shows us a different calendar. Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened." 2nd Month 17th Day. Genesis 8: 3 And the waters receded continually from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days (150 days) the waters decreased. 4 Then the ark rested in the seventh month, the seventeenth day of the month, on the mountains of Ararat." 7th Month, 17th Day. (5 months later =150 days means each month is 30 days). Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord. One new moon to another is 30 days x 12 months = 360 days per year. Daniel 9 shows us a 360 day calendar to get to the death of Messiah. So from these 3 passages we see that the entire Old Testament uses a 360-day calendar. 4004 BC converted to a 360 day calendar is 3,946 years from Adam to Jesus. If we convert 2023 from Jesus to now into a 360 day calendar it 2,052 years. Together that's 5,998/5,999 years (using the decimal numbers) Or if we keep 2023 as is we're at 5,969 years. Now I'm not saying that Jesus is coming back this year or next year but this is evidence that Jesus is coming soon. We see in Revelation 3 sets of 7 events. 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, and 7 Bowls. Then Jesus returns. Seal 1 in Revelation 6:1-2 says Now I saw when the Lamb (Jesus Rev 5) opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer. Now compare this to Revelation 19:11-16 where Jesus returns. Both ride a white horse but the Rev 6 rider has a bow but Jesus has a sharp sword. Rev 6 rider has 1 crown, Jesus has many crowns. The Rev 6 rider goes out to conquer, but Jesus returns to rule. Seal 1 is an imposter, a counterfeit, a false Messiah. Matthew 24:4-5 4 Jesus told them, “Don’t let anyone mislead you, 5 for many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah.’ They will deceive many. Then again in verses 23-26 where a false Messiah does signs and wonders. John 5:43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. Do you know what the word "Antichrist" means? The term Antichrist is a Greek word. The prefix "Anti" means "in place of", "instead of", or "in opposition to" and Christ means "anointed one. Guess what Messiah means? Anointed one. The Antichrist could also be called The false Messiah. He is a person and he will be received as the Messiah and declared to be the long-awaited Messiah by the Jewish people in place of Jesus; the true Messiah. Here's the Jewish belief around this "messiah" aka the false Messiah aka the Antichrist. When we look to see the signs of this false Messiah being revealed we see the Jewish rabbis think it's any day now. Why? They believe he will arrive during the year of Jubilee which some thought was last year and some think it's this year. www.israeltoday.co.il/read/israeli-rabbi-says-hes-already-holding-meetings-with-messiah/ www.israel365news.com/339505/israeli-rabbi-reveals-date-of-messiahs-arrival-according-to-kabbalah/ Since the year of Jubilee is the 50th year of a cycle and the 6000 year is a 50th year of a cycle I believe we are now in the 6000th year could I be wrong? Yep. But I'm watching to see when the Jews reveal their "false Messiah" watching for Jesus to Rapture His Church before the 70th week of Daniel. Now there's much more I could get into but the point here is it's sad to me to watch good men of God be so uneducated on the topic. I hope this helps. Take care.

[@ben.duffour]

This is pretty informative(postmil guy here). The 70 weeks though represent 490 years don't they not? Why are 7 years removed from the 490 and placed at the tail end of human history? Im genuinely interested

[@blckandwhtknight]

Post-mil teaching is blinding you and the people you teach. It's is going to leave so many just as lost and confused as the pre-trib crowd when the world starts to burn. Preach the gospel, teach patient endurance in faith, and hope in a God who has overcome the world, that's what matters now.

[@TwentyTwoThirtyThree]

Keep reading your Bible, you'll get there.

[@luboshcamber1992]

@TwentyTwoThirtyThree Nobody has ever came to Postmillenialism by just reading the Bible without outer influences. 😉

[@TwentyTwoThirtyThree]

@@luboshcamber1992 Guess you haven't read much church history huh

[@luboshcamber1992]

@TwentyTwoThirtyThree Didn't you say that you came to that idea by just reading the Bible? 🤔

[@TwentyTwoThirtyThree]

@@luboshcamber1992 So explain this to me, by me pointing out to you that many many many men over centuries have come to that conclusion of a posmillenial hope by simply reading scripture....is somehow flawed because it's not the scripture? I'm not saying you will come to that conclusion by reading church history, I'm pointing out to you that the examples of people coming to that conclusion and are everywhere and east to find. Don't twist my words.

[@marymckay7154]

Always keep the whole counsel of THE WORD OF God before you. Let Scripture interpret Scripture. Love truth more than anything & be willing to slaughter your sacred theological bulls on the altar of truth if necessary.

[@marymckay7154]

John 17:17

[@stormhawk31]

Sorry, but Pre-Millenialism is correct. Post-Millennialism has ABSOLUTELY NO biblical support. It's just mutated Amillenialism, and Protestant Amillenialism makes no sense without the Roman Catholic church (which is where Amillenialism comes from, thanks to Origen and Augustine). Even WITH the Roman Catholic church Amillenialism still has ABSOLUTELY NO biblical support. Post-Millennialism is just a Protestant attempt to compensate for the OBVIOUS failings of Amillenialism. Neither would be necessary if y'all would just BELIEVE THE BIBLE. And no, I'm NOT saying that Amillennials/Post-Millennials aren't saved, I'm saying that y'all don't believe what the Bible says about Israel (both the land and the Jewish people). Y'all think the church has replaced the Jews and that God has cast them aside. This despite the fact that the Bible specifically and repeatedly says that this is NOT the case. And because you get your Israelology wrong, you get your eschatology wrong. That wouldn't be so bad, except that, in the process, you inadvertently make God out to be a liar and a covenant-breaker. THAT'S bad. Just read the Bible - the WHOLE Bible, not just the New Testament - and BELIEVE what it says. If you do that, you'll get your Israelology right, and that will set your eschatology straight. THEN we can debate about when the Rapture takes place. 😉 As for Post-Millennialism (and the related NAR, 7 Mountains Mandate, and Christian Nationalism stuff), it's a waste of time. NOWHERE does the Bible tell us that WE build the Kingdom for Jesus. All that mindset does is lead people into thinking that we need political solutions to spiritual problems, and it sets them up to embrace the coming Beast, who will seem like the perfect political/religious leader. WE don't build the Kingdom for Jesus. That's not our job. Our job is to preach the gospel and win as many souls as possible to populate the Kingdom. But there are those who belong to Jesus who will not come to Him until driven to the wall by the Tribulation period - including the Jewish remnant. And that's the point of the Time of Jacob's Trouble. When THAT'S over and Jesus returns, HE will build the Kingdom HIMSELF. And the world He builds it on won't be crummy and polluted like the world is now; it'll be restored and renewed by His power to nearly Edenic perfection. Trying to take over the world is a fool's errand. And even if we COULD do it, we'd be no better than any other tyrants or despots, because we're HUMAN, and human nature is the problem. We won't have good government and good society until Jesus Christ HIMSELF is the government. We don't build it. HE does.

[@luboshcamber1992]

@stormhawk31 I agree with your point that we do not build the Kingdom. I consider it almost blasphemous. He builds His church and He builds His Kingdom. Yes, He uses us, but not the way Postmills are dreaming it up. It is very deceptive eschatology. Unfaithfulness of men can never break faithfulness of God. If that were possible we are all lost...

[@awatchman-um7vy]

Storm,.....Wrong! Premillennialism is a 100% fake manmade CONcept. If you were not completely Biblically illiterate you would know this. Everything you have stated here is wrong and is absolute unbiblical nonsense. You have shown yourself to be completely spiritually dead and blind. Repent!

[@awatchman-um7vy]

@@luboshcamber1992 ,...You are as blind, lost, and deceived as storm is. Repent!

[@sflclee]

You left out “go and make DISCIPLES of all nations” and “teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” Isn’t that building the kingdom? The Holy Spirit is the one who wins the souls, after we preach the Gospel. We don’t win souls; but, we are commanded to “go and make disciples” and we do this because Jesus said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. THEREFORE (because of this) we CAN go and make disciples (build the kingdom). What we CAN’T do is win souls (change hearts). ONLY THE HOLY SPIRIT can do that. And Matthew 28:18-20 does not tell us to win souls. It tells us to go, make disciples, baptize & teach. I’m 56 & what I have experienced in my lifetime is that the church has focused mainly on getting people to make a decision for Christ & has not made disciples or taught people to obey. We have churches who are filled with people who made a decision to NOT go to hell, but have no desire to follow Christ & obey His teaching!! They are NOT SAVED, but have been given a false reassurance that they are saved because the church did not teach obedience nor disciple them. What a sad tragedy it will be when Jesus says to them, Depart from me. I never knew you.”

[@forthosewitheyestosee8183]

@@sflclee ,.... The idea of soul winning and the churches freewill gospel does not come from the Bible, they are false manmade CONcepts. No soul is won or lost. Every soul has been predestined from the foundation of the earth to become saved or to be cast into the lake of fire. Please understand, the entire church is 100% apostate. It is just a marketplace for the buying and selling of the apostate churches false manmade freewill gospel that is bought and sold as an insurance policy. Like you said, something they think will keep them from being cast into the lake of fire. The Bibles Christianity is not found in anything known as the church. The few who God chose to save are all outside of everything called the church.

[@chingersgolucky7512]

Billy Graham didn't believe that Jesus is the only way. That would explain a lot.

[@r_r_rye2441]

What a horrific straw manning.

[@youBrakeIHonk]

"Watch the sermon.." How?? There are no links.

[@hondotheology]

don't forget classical apologetics

[@marymckay7154]

There is a visible and invisible church. There are "many", and then there are " few". There is a broad way, and then there is a narrow way. Godspeed to the Seekers.

[@fritzco55]

Amen! "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."

[@ricksanborn6667]

Is it just me, or is there a reason this video can't be shared?

[@mkshffr4936]

All interpreters take some things literally and some things symbolically. The difference is only in which things.

[@toolegittoquit_001]

Context, Context, Context

[@luboshcamber1992]

@toolegittoquit_001 Yes. And context tells you that everything will go down prior to Christ's return. Only lovers of the flesh aant to have earthly Kingdom built here...

[@mkshffr4936]

@@luboshcamber1992 Wrong but thanks for playing.

[@lufesaro7741]

​@@mkshffr4936not really

[@luboshcamber1992]

@mkshffr4936 "When the son of Man comes will He find faith on earth?" mkshffr4936: oh absolutely Jesus, didn't you know that we Postmillenialist were gonna built your church and subdue all the nations and rule them in some sort of theocracy?!? In Millenium?!? There's gonna be sooo much faith when you return Lord. Read how much we wrote about it! 👍👌🤔🙄🤦

[@News2morrow]

02:53 It's interesting that he speaks about the differences in doctrine among Church leaders. Meanwhile, he pushes his own (wrong) perspective, pushing the idea that the Olivet Prophecy was entirely fulfilled in 70 AD. That can't be so, since Christ hadn't returned to "that" generation. 70 AD is a type of what is to come in the future. The Olivet Prophecy had a duality fulfillment, as is many other Biblical concepts: First & Second Adam, Old & New Covenants, Old & New Testaments, Elijah fulfilled in John the Baptist but another to come (Mt 17: 11-12), Old Testament prophesies Christ's coming in two stages, etc.

[@awatchman-um7vy]

Christ coming in two stages? What?

[@News2morrow]

@@awatchman-um7vy Christ had to first come as a man to die for the sins of mankind & to be resurrected. And THEN come back again as King of Kings & Lord of Lords. Even after Christ came the first time, the Jewish Christians didn't necessarily understand Christ would come in two stages. They thought that Christ would come once and restore the Kingdom of Israel. They asked Jesus, "Wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1: 6) Only then did they realize that when Christ returns will He restore the Kingdom to Israel.

[@awatchman-um7vy]

@@News2morrow ,...Well, first off, Jesus did not die for the sins of mankind. Jesus came for only, and died for only the few who are his chosen ones, his elect. He did not die for anyone else. Second, when Jesus returns it is the last day, judgement day when God will destroy the earth. The kingdom will not be restored to Israel. That is a false teaching from the 100% apostate church. Everything the church teaches is Biblically incorrect. Israel has nothing to do with anything, they are completely outside of the kingdom of God and will remain so until Jesus returns and destroys them all.

[@AgeDeo2009]

Christ did not say that He would return but that He would come, fulfilling David 7:13, which was when "He came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him" coinciding with the Judgement on Jerusalem that included the destruction of the temple and the abomination of desolation just as He predicted. This disaster vindicated Christ over those who opposed Him. Unbelieving Jews who entered the city, died but His followers whom He instructed to go the opposite direction, survived. Thus, Christ's prophesy was fulfilled in that specific generation as He foretold.

[@AVoiceCryingInTheWildern-vt6ed]

@@AgeDeo2009 ,...Sorry, but you are wrong and have spoken unbiblical nonsense. Jesus is returning and when he does, he is going to cast all those snared into the apostate church (the abomination of desolation/the false prophet) into the lake of fire. Repent!

[@caroledwards9381]

No one is going to “speed up the clock”.

[@boughtdeadbyChrist]

If I could make Choc Knox's gunfire audio noises right now, I would!

[@indigatorveritatis7343]

This guy actually says @ 3:10 that "... instead of taking Jesus in a literal sense ...." regarding His 2nd coming, that postmils are the ones that actually do? Seriously? I mean, if anyone allegorizes the text it's postmils

[@brianlee9990]

Wow. Talk about straw man arguments.

[@arcanum3882]

Yeah I know, dispies are wack

[@awatchman-um7vy]

@@arcanum3882 ,...Can you please show me where the Bible speaks of "dispies"?

[@arcanum3882]

@@awatchman-um7vy it doesn't thank goodness

[@awatchman-um7vy]

@@arcanum3882 ,...Then what is it and why are you using it in a Christian (Biblical) comment section?

[@INTOHISIMAGE]

Wash of Hog

[@RevRKellyJohnson]

Preach....

[@adventures8977]

The events of 70 AD were more severe in both content and scale than all the other "tribulations" that have occurred since then including the Jewish Holocaust of WW2? (Matthew 24:21; Mark 13:19)

[@AVoiceCryingInTheWildern-vt6ed]

You are completely wrong and deceived. Repent!

[@fatalheart7382]

Good points

[@spitfireap77]

I think Joel doesn't have a good grasp of how Pre-Millenial dispensationalism affects day-to-day life.

[@awatchman-um7vy]

Sadly, Joel does not have a grasp on the truth and the Christianity of the Bible.

[@christalone71]

@@awatchman-um7vy You are being very unkind and un-Christian with remarks like this one and another you made!

[@awatchman-um7vy]

@@christalone71 ,...Yes, speaking the truth of Gods word is considered as unkindness to those who are not Christians. The unsaved hate the truth of the Bible. Joel is not a Christian and as I stated, he sadly does not understand the Bible or the Bibles Christianity. He, like you, only understands the apostate churches counterfeit (antichrist) christianity. Sure, he has some things correct, but also many things incorrect. Holding to and teaching false doctrines is adding leaven into the mix and this ruins the entire thing. A man of God must teach all things correctly, not just 25%/50% or 90%. The Bible tells us the actual Christians are taught all things, not just some things,..... "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." 1 John 2:27 KJV The simple, sad truth is, those who do not understand/teach all things correctly are not Christians, they are counterfeits.

[@jessejones3545]

​@@awatchman-um7vyStand for the truth, brother. Joel also teaches replacement theology. It's what brought me to this video to confirm my sneaking suspicions: That this man is a false teacher.

[@awatchman-um7vy]

@@jessejones3545 ,...Yes, I stand for/with the truth of the Bible. What is called replacement theology is correct Biblical doctrine. The church (the actual spiritual) church has replaced Israel. What the world knows as the church is not the real (spiritual) church, it is the counterfeit/fake church. Just as Israel went completely apostate from God so too has the church. And just as God rejected Israel he will also reject the church. However, there was a remnant in the old testament times, so too there is a remnant in the last days as well. The remnant (the actual Christians) have nothing to do with what is considered to be the church. In the new testament age Israel is the church, the real (spiritual) church, not the physical church that is all apostate just as Israel was/is. The nation of Israel has nothing to do with God/Jesus and are completely out of the picture.

[@matthewstanger1423]

I'm an Allmillinist no Rapture and some of the book of Revaluation is fulfilled already.

[@roddumlauf9241]

Matthew, you are correct. Actually most of the Book of Revelation has been fulfilled in it's historical and literal sense, although much in Apocalyptic language of the OT prophets. But it could be fulfilled age in the future on a broader scale than 70AD.

[@luboshcamber1992]

@@matthewstanger1423 Every single sound Christian believes Rapture. Every single one. We just disagree about timing. So you're very wrong there.

[@awatchman-um7vy]

@@luboshcamber1992 ,...Wrong! Every single fake christian believes in the fake manmade rapture. Wow! Are you ever deceived. Repent!

[@awatchman-um7vy]

@@roddumlauf9241 AD 70 was not a fulfillment of, and had nothing to do with anything. The cult of preterism has nothing to do with Biblical truth.

[@roddumlauf9241]

@@awatchman-um7vy 70 AD is the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy that Jerusalem and the Temple would be destroyed within the generation.

[@nealray3247]

Pretty easy to destroy a straw man. Premillennialism and Dispensationalism teach when the Gospel is preached around the world, Christ will return? We can all agree that theological laziness and ecumenism have destroyed Western Christianity, so should our rebuttals to these problems not avoid these characteristics? Just a thought....

[@Heath580]

I really dont like the blanket term "evangelical." Disagree with him all you want, but John Macarthur and Billy Graham are not the same as Joel Osteen

[@awatchman-um7vy]

Actually, they are exactly the same. All three of them and all of those deceived by them are all going to the very same place, the lake of fire. Repent!

[@Heath580]

@awatchman-um7vy are you Catholic or something? Even the guys in the video wouldn't go so far as to say Graham or MacArthur are hellbound. Do you even know who they are?

[@solideomusical]

The more I hear about these camps the more agnostic I become about eschatology. Everyone sounds like they make a good case until you hear the next person's take. I don't believe the 'Great Commission' is for us today. Yes, we should be salt and light, give testimony of Christ, try to snatch sinners from hellfire etc. but not because of the Great Commission. Just because we want others to be saved.

[@marymckay7154]

I understand where you are, or have been. Read the Word ...and don't join the boys club.

[@glennkrieger]

As a premillennial dispensationalist there are things that are said in this video clip that aren't true amongst those that believe like I do. But, the things that are said do make me and others like me look like idiots. Careful there.

[@AlwaysHopeful87]

Isn't the mission of the church to make us all feel warm n fuzzy?

[@Delgen1951]

No, it is to bring a sword, to fight the good fight. To tell the good news of freeing the captive, heling the sick, feeding the hungry and lame. And being ready to suffer hardship like a good soldier.

[@AlwaysHopeful87]

@@Delgen1951 Thanks.

[@luboshcamber1992]

Not that you are wrong in everything you're saying but if Premillenialism is the reason then the Early Church was about to fall as well. And voila, it only started to go down once Postmillenialism and Ammillenialism came on the scene. Wonder why...🤔

[@awatchman-um7vy]

Are you trying to say that there is such a thing as the rapture?

[@luboshcamber1992]

@awatchman-um7vy It is completely irrelevant what I or you are trying to say. What is important is what the Bible says. Rapture is believed by all sound Christians. We just disagree about the timing. Besides that, what on my comment led you to this redundant question?

[@awatchman-um7vy]

@@luboshcamber1992 ,...The FACT is, the 100% fake manmade rapture is believe by absolute zero Christians. Anyone who has been deceived by the 100% fake manmade rapture CONcept is not a Christian. Premillennialism of course is not the reason for the church going astray. It is only because the entire church was astray and completely apostate that they were deceived by the 100% false manmade rapture CONcept. The church was 100% astray and apostate right from the very beginning. And has only continued to go more and more astray. What the world (christians) think is the church, is not the church of Jesus and those Jesus came to save. it is the counterfeit (antichrist) church the Bible repeatedly warns you all not to be deceived by. Again, no Christian believes in nor is deceived by the 100% fake rapture. It is only fake christians that have been deceived by this manmade abomination. Repent!

[@Greshman076]

@@awatchman-um7vy The rapture has the same level of Biblical support as purgatory (i.e. none)

[@AVoiceCryingintheDesert-tq4vw]

@@Greshman076 ,....You are 100% correct!

[@keith3362]

This is what the bible says about the last days - 'This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; (2 Timothy 3:1-4, KJV) What this person believes about how things will go doesn't add up to scripture. And if people become this way it doesn't mean God made them do it - that's Calvinism (but this person is a calvinist). The devil knows his time is short and people have a choice to give in to him or believe in Jesus.

[@arcanum3882]

That verse you quoted was directed at the Apostles and referring to the tribulation (destruction of second temple) and took place roughly 2000 years ago.

[@keith3362]

@@arcanum3882 It doesn't say that at all. It just says 'in the last days' That's an interpretation from a pre-formed view - you didn't pull that out of that scripture. What about 'But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. (2 Timothy 3:13, KJV) It doesn't say they'll get better and better. And this verse - 'Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, (2 Peter 3:3, KJV) Later on in that same chapter Peter is talking about the 'day of the Lord' that will 'come as a thief in the night'. It's not 70AD. Peter does say in the same chapter how 1 day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day so I think it could apply to the last 2000 years but it doesn't ever go into this idea of the world becoming so much better before the Lord returns. He is the one that will make it better, even perfect.

[@arcanum3882]

@@keith3362 dude take a hermeneutics class. Audience is the subject of who's being addressed, Peter asks the question. Be historically and biblically literate.

[@WordMadeFlesh777]

@@arcanum3882the Pretorist view is completely backwards.

[@keith3362]

@@arcanum3882 What question? Where is the promise of His coming? Then he goes into speaking about when the Lord will come as a thief in the night. Show me one place in the bible where it confirms this post millennial idea that things are going to get better and better and be so great then Jesus will come back. It doesn't exist, unless I'm missing something. But so far you haven't given one scripture to back it up. You're not biblically accurate, you've given NO scripture that supports what is being said here. Just show me one scripture that says it's going to get better and better and Christians will be in control then Jesus will come, if there isn't one then the whole thing is made up. Also you said what Peter wrote was directed at the apostles? 'Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: (2 Peter 1:1, KJV) It was to believers. So are you just making this up too or where are you getting it? Also whether is gets better and better or worse I'm going to follow Jesus the same. The whole point of this video is really calvinists (and post millennial) are right and everyone else is wrong, but hey that's what calvinists do online.This pastor has a conference coming up with 'seven doctrines for ruling the world' in the title. And he's not talking about when Jesus returns. I know another group who has a '7 mountian mandate' which seems eerily similar; they also believe christians will take over the world.

[@truthdealer2121]

Let’s be ready for Jesus to come , and not do anything …

[@biblehistoryscience3530]

The church is not spiritual Israel, and the great commission is not about church leaders sitting on Jesus' earthly throne and cleaning up the world before Jesus can come. AND Dispensational Premillers do send out evangelists and build churches. There will continue to be tribulation until the righteous saints who prayed to escape the great tribulation will, then everyone else will freak out, many Christians will get mad at God for not rupturing them, in spite of their unbelief, and many will fall away because of the heavy persecution.

[@ThecultofCon]

The rapture already happened 250+ years ago. Tartaria/mudfloods/worlds fair. Do a little thinking.

[@awatchman-um7vy]

The church absolutely is Israel, spiritual Israel. There is no such thing as a rapture. The rapture is a 100% fake manmade CONcept that is only believed by the completely Biblically illiterate and the totally willingly ignorant. You are completely steeped in darkness and deception, Repent!

[@newhopecommunitychurch2355]

Wow, where did Joel get his info from? He certainly mischaracterized some dispensational theology. By the way Joel, I take it that you are a preterist so what was the "abomination that causes desolations" (Matthew 24:15) in 70AD? We know what it was during the Maccabean time (Atiochus IV Ephiphanes erecting the statue of Zeus in the Temple), but what was it in 70AD? Jesus doesn't tell us, but letting Scripture interpret Scripture, it seems like, following Antiochus' example, it will be some kind of idol (being a dispensationalist I believe it will be the image of Antichrist). Preterists like Joel say the "abomination that causes desolation" in 70 AD was the Roman army (that carried pictures of their gods on their armor) when they stormed the Temple. But that seems to a stretch in interpretation. I've studied eschatology for 25 years (all the differing views) and yes, their are many differences in these views, and we can debate these views and learn from each other. We need to develop a biblical view on the end times, but not be stubbornly dogmatic because God left many of the details unsaid. However, saying that a certain view has led to the demise of the church is arrogantly irresponsible.

[@JR-rs5qs]

Oh Joel, just a matter of moments before you have that epiphany and you subsequently say, "I'm not a baptist anymore." Quietly to yourself first, then to your wife, then to others pastors, then publicly.

[@arliegage1380]

I'm a Post Tribber, ❤

[@indigatorveritatis7343]

Some basic truth here to prop up the failed post-millennial "things are going to get better", then blaming premillennial adherents? Yeah, sure. Laughable

[@paulchamberlain4810]

Especially when 100 or so years ago it was largely the premils that remained faithful and the post mills that went social gospel and liberal.

[@indigatorveritatis7343]

@@paulchamberlain4810 Yes, many of the liberal scholarship of the early 1900 (and before in Germany in the 1800's) began questioning scripture, leading to that.

[@jjemsnd7]

In the essentials unit, In the nonessential liberty But in all things charity. I'm Post-Trib having come from pre-trib. I still have pre-trib dispy friends . This seems to be a nonessential, it's not a salvific. Issue. I personally think it's wrong. I also think the what people believe about the future has an impact on how they behave in the present. I just don't think it's something that church needs to divide on. I'm not flushing my friendships with pre-mil dispy friends Because we have different views of escatology anymore than I would separate from an Armenian for the same reasons.

[@AVoiceCryingInTheWildern-vt6ed]

It is 100% a salvation issue. If you were a Christian you would understand this. The entire church is 100% apostate, and there are no Christians in anything known as the church. Repent!

[@rickhall517930]

Yep

[@rhesabrowning]

Jeez. Lots of heat but not much light

[@tomcox5063]

The hatred shown by men like this is sad. Why disparage others that don’t share your view? these are secondary issues… Stay in your lane

[@johngalt4657]

'AND BY TRYING TO SPEED UP THE RETURN OF CHRIST BY TRYING TO STIR UP WARS AND AN ARMAGEDDON IN THE MIDEAST' said by the bloodthirsty Christ hating Dispensationalists. Dispensationalism is a Heresy and a False Gospel. God will punish them for their warmongering on the Day of Judgment.

[@M-j1k-j3g]

As a person who enjoys listening to a a variety of opinions, you are just flat out lying about dispensationalism. It’s the same lie I’ve heard time and time again. It’s understandable that you have a different opinion based on your own interpretations of scriptures but instead of emphasizing that and showing how what you believe is correct, you choose to go over awful dispensationalist are. How they choose not to have children nor help others. Give me a break.

[@pjetri24]

It is ironic hearing a postmill saying that premills took things not literally.

[@crushedrighthand3090]

well, they didn't take the Olivet discourse literally.

[@pjetri24]

@@crushedrighthand3090 they take the whole revelation allegorically though 😅

[@nando7522]

Did Joel say premil people didn't take "things" literally (so that now you can define "things" to be whatever you want) or did he actually say that they didn't take Matt 24 literally? Specifically Jesus' "this generation" statement. Go back rewind. Listen again and we will wait for you to correct yourself. 😂

[@dannorris8478]

Do you mean the way premills believe Jesus rides a horse, has a sword coming out of his mouth and judges the world with a sickle?

[@crushedrighthand3090]

@@pjetri24 the first verse in Rev states that these are signs, signifiers. But by all means, believe in a literal beast rising from the literal sea making people take a literal mark from a literal creature with 10 heads and 7 horns with a prostitute literally riding on it's back....

[@emree8833]

Pre or post or preterist, put your faith Yeshua! I Love all of you!!! We need to be United in the Fact that we SERVE THE ALMIGHTY!!! The Enemy wants division, but in Christ we have salvation!!

[@AVoiceCryingInTheWildern-vt6ed]

You are completely blind, lost, and deceived. Repent, and learn what the truth and the Christianity of the Bible actually is.

[@cherylfarmer6086]

Good luck on trying to speed up God, lol. God is God and He operates on His own time clock, His own Will and His own Plan.

[@ThecultofCon]

Why arent the kids in some kind of nursery? Got loud mouth kids screaming in the crowd ruining the speech.

[@TwentyTwoThirtyThree]

Because God has commanded believers and their children to be in the house of God. Sending them to a room in the basement to colour blasphemous pictures isn't raising your children in the fear and admonition of the Lord.

[@awatchman-um7vy]

@@TwentyTwoThirtyThree ,...You are completely wrong. Nowhere does the Bible state to allow children to be in the mist of the teaching. The reason these Godless children are allowed in is because no one is listening to what is being said, and no one cares. They just want to have their little gods there with them. Anyone who brings a child into a church service has shown absolute zero consideration for others. If a child is at the age to be completely quiet, this is a different matter. People's children are their gods, God is not their God, their children are.

[@RightResponseMinistries]

@@TwentyTwoThirtyThree God bless you.

[@jamescook5617]

@@TwentyTwoThirtyThree thank you. Well said. Bonus point for dunking on coloring questionable illustrations.

[@TwentyTwoThirtyThree]

@@jamescook5617 Hahaha you're welcome