How the Slippi cheater did it: Ludwig was right

[@Shawnp23]

Dude I just respect this man for no excuses saying “I was wrong”

[@JDLupus]

Agreed; I have SO much respect for people who are capable of saying that, and I think that it's one of the most sorely lacking traits of people in general.

[@MartinGarden]

More people should learn this in 2021 lol

[@aberrantreptile]

Huge respect for that

[@YourPalJamieEllis]

It's such a huge asset to so many pursuits being able to jump into an early version of your opinion, test it, and modify or abandon that opinion if it's clearly not holding up. Makes so many things in life much easier if you can quickly adapt your personal paradigm until it's in a place that holds up.

[@Pr0ject_Dusk]

I totally respect it, especially since nowadays almost everyone is entitled af and don't ever want to admit they're wrong. Hell, literally yesterday someone said "BOTW Link has a hook shot in Ult", I corrected him, and instead of being like "Oh you're right my bad" he instead is "UHHH can someone mute him?" AND that's just one example. Like wtf people.

[@greenbean4422]

Imagine being able to SDI everything but you can't land 20%

[@littlemisseevee2309]

imagine having such good cc but playing like a scrub

[@Jardonius]

@@littlemisseevee2309 I live that life every god damn day :C

[@littlemisseevee2309]

@@Jardonius :c

[@yurr7408]

imagine just being bad

[@littlemisseevee2309]

@@yurr7408 TRUE

[@sonriku7331]

Unrelated but have you ever tried jumping into those paintings in the background?

[@firewall5189]

if he says "no" hes lying

[@Acryte]

lol

[@Creepo_J]

Finding the secret star

[@testhekid]

here we GOOO

[@Bro-dot-]

I think most things in those stages would kill him.

[@jrobinsondrums]

"So right here, SAYU takes a laser to the dome."

[@Jardonius]

Man has a gift for commentary. I should've seen it coming when I saw the shirt~

[@Malysitos]

6:00 For AltF4's beautiful commentary and subtle jab at Sayu's late input

[@Jethorus]

I read this as it happened and it was glorious

[@HintsV2]

The controller input viewer is the absolute killing blow that negates all possibilities that this is a box-styled controller since we get to see the joystick movement. Thanks for including it.

[@fernando47180]

What?

[@HintsV2]

@@fernando47180 When it comes to movement controls, there are two types of inputs: Analog inputs - Seen in the Gamecube controller's joysticks and shoulder buttons. Having analog movement means that your controller allows you to move in a wide variety of ranges. You can perform from the slowest walks gradually to running. Digital inputs - Seen in the Gamecube controller's standard buttons. Pressing a button will move you in one direction. Think of it like the WASD movement system on a keyboard. While you have limited movement, you're able to comfortably do stuff such as pressing left and right in quick succession without putting too much strain on your hands. Since a box-styled controller uses only digital inputs, it is not possible for the player to perform analog actions (such as slowly moving from the origin to the corner of the joystick radius) made available via traditional joysticks. Prior to this video, people have argued that SAYU must've been a box player since they were able to SDI very efficiently; however, as the input viewer has shown, SAYU's joystick was moving in an analog fashion while occasionally teleporting from one place to another, which is not possible for both controllers.

[@fernando47180]

@@HintsV2 Thank you

[@donaldpetersen2382]

@@HintsV2 I thought you could plug a wii analog controller half into the boxx

[@HintsV2]

@@donaldpetersen2382 Yes, but there are two things to point out in this clip that prove that wasn't the case for SAYU: 1. People argued that SAYU could SDI because they were using a box controller for movement. If SAYU is indeed doing that, this would mean that they're using analog and digital movements at the same time, which is physically impossible as achieving certain angles also requires the modifier keys to be pressed along with the movement buttons. Not to mention, SAYU moves the joystick before every SDI. 2. SAYU's c-stick is analog in the replay. You can see instances of the c-stick bouncing back into neutral position as well as some gradual movements in other instances, all of which are not possible with digital inputs.

[@deddrz2549]

it's actually pretty sweet that the version of the game where it's easiest to cheat is the one that also easiest to catch a cheater.

[@DragonKirby]

Perfectly balanced as all things should be

[@solidsnakeandgrayfox]

Its the law of equivalent exchange.

[@reeepingk]

I mean, all you have to do is program randomness into the macro. First, program yourself doing the move a few dozen times. Then do statistical analysis of the button presses and timings, and apply that randomness to your macro timings. Catching someone cheating like this only works because the button inputs are TOO perfect. Make them imperfect and catching someone becomes much harder. They would have to do statistical analysis themselves to catch you (kinda like how the math people did with dreams minecraft speedruns.) It's still possible to cheat even with a keylogger, you just have to be a smarter programmer. (And of course this would never work if anybody else could SEE you physically playing the game.)

[@dezmennguyen9207]

@@reeepingk but what’s the point of that because at a professional level giving a free punish can usually lead to a lost stock

[@martmine4618]

@@reeepingk I get what you're saying but impossible inputs are what they are for a reason, even making then random they will still appear on replay .

[@Falcobird01]

To be honest, the cheating was actually making SAYU worse.

[@DaRkLoRd-rc5yu]

i mean it would take some time to learn how to play with macros, but even still this is a thing we need to nip in the bud before it gets to that point, otherwise this sort of thing might spread like wall hacks in counterstrike

[@SSB_Seal]

This is super super interesting! It was really funny watching it happen to Ludwig live, especially when his non-Melee-playing chatters kept saying it couldn't be fake after it did SDI that would make even Wizzrobe jealous. Of course that is humanly possible, but to see such an otherwise poor player do these things consistently should at least call it into question, haha. Thanks for making such a clean explanation video!

[@Pokehero]

Wild Seal spotted

[@Creepo_J]

When I saw the clip it had such baloney and bs that it was pretty obvious

[@stormchaser465]

i feel like ive seen you around siIvagunner's stuff often

[@rezyrektion6467]

@@stormchaser465 That's because he has been

[@7ukaa]

imagine admitting u watch ludwig

[@rg975]

Damn it's not even cool cheating, just basic batch macros

[@HamburgerTime_]

Off topic but ayy I see you with those Unhinged land arts

[@thedark1owns]

Right?! those are amazing lands and I want a set for myself.

[@mrpandasian8871]

Ahh, I see you're a man of culture as well

[@how2banana25]

They’re beautiful

[@sulIy]

I was thinking the same thing

[@vecvecvec]

damn i didnt notice this man really is based

[@sirmatic2776]

The technician behind the infamous SmashBot finally tackles this mystery

[@buddhaboy3874]

yes

[@mxcascade]

Although it was hilarious to watch everyone just auto agree it was a box player (with sdi which not even smashbox can input without a fucked up layout), it was really interesting to see the actual inputs and macros in your vid. cool stuff.

[@EEvisu]

DM me the cheat someone, I'm ready to get ranked

[@EliteDarkLordman]

You crazy, EE!

[@Rain1]

Lol

[@n13475]

Lol

[@weezahd114]

I knew it man, there’s no one who would be good enough to hit all those power shields on his new boxx that’s going to play like that, if you’re good enough to powershield at that level you’re not going to play neutral by standing around waiting to powershield approaches, you’re still going to play like a reasonably brained person.

[@br0wn676]

The thing I noticed first was how lousy Sayu was. There’s no way a player that bad could SDI like that

[@zaedis5629]

1:49 "Everything here seemed pretty normal" nothing about this was normal

[@IronicHavoc]

He was talking about a specific portion if the clip

[@albertgalan7829]

@@IronicHavoc yes we know -_-

[@papieverett]

@@IronicHavoc yeah. we all know.

[@orcfeseda]

My first reaction was “since when can you deflect lazzzzers?!” And then I saw that abnormal analog motion... no friggen way is that humanly possible to be that FAST lol.

[@freedustin]

@@orcfeseda someone just came up with a method to hit 20hz on an NES d-pad with just hands consistently...it's called rolling. They position 1 finger on the d-pad and drumroll their fingers on the other hand on the bottom on the controller upwards into the finger on the d-pad which can switch which direction it's on whenever. Maybe a similar trick can be discovered for analog sticks?

[@blaize5436]

those mario paintings are dope asf

[@Erosis]

Where did he get them?

[@MidnaMistfire]

@@Erosis I want to know too!

[@virus2339]

Yee those are some dope art!

[@jjdttn]

no kiddin. i'll drop a link if i find em

[@The-Divey]

My favorite is the Snowman's land painting

[@7of475]

AltF4: "Hey everyone, I'm AltF4" Me: scrolls down slightly to see channel name "No cap?"

[@plaguis1391]

...what? There's a capital letter in his name.

[@TheEvilCheesecake]

Literally no body:

[@guesswho6941]

The simple ms paint red cheat was ironically such an excellent thumbnail choice

[@mymyscellany]

I mean cheating will still be possible, it will just have to be a lot smarter than this extremely stupid cheating. Like using macros with random frames built in with imperfect inputs.

[@WookieChoi]

Cool video! I'm glad there is already anti cheat measures using slp inputs. Also, I'd like to point out that some of the SDI that the cheater did aren't even possible on the B0XX and the Frame1. In one of the clips, it looks like the cheater did 1 SDI input on the first hit of Fox's up air and 3 SDI inputs on the second hit. The b0xx and frame1 actually limit your SDI to a max of 2 SDI inputs per hit. That said, keyboard isn't limited by this (which I use lol).

[@jeppekjer6138]

Only the b0xx does this, Frame1 does not have this nerf. But even then, this is way too much SDI for Frame1 users.

[@Budymryo]

How could you look at those power shields so close up and say "yea must be the b0xx" lmao

[@CameronKujo]

Right

[@MondayHopscotch]

Great video! Slippi has been amazing for melee, and I've been able to significantly improvement my enjoyment of the game as locals are not convenient where I live. Thanks for the technical breakdown

[@SeisoYabai]

I absolutely adore the art in the background! MTG lands are so pretty and the SM64 portraits are actually rather nice in real life!

[@irishbatman2100]

Very interesting to see the breakdown of how they managed to do it, great video

[@irishbatman2100]

Also after the new slippi patch on april first, the lib melee menuhelper stopped working, so I reinstalled the GALE01r2.ini file and it would navigate through the menus, but crash when it gets to the character select screen. Has anyone else had this problem?

[@seanathan1]

@@irishbatman2100 wouldn't it be better to ask in the slippi cord

[@irishbatman2100]

@@seanathan1 maybe, but its more to do with libmelee considering its the .ini file you need specifically for libmelee

[@nightattak95]

Love the art, those lands are so pretty always wished I could actually get my hands of like a playset of each but never did. M64 art is just timeless.

[@memeskeepmealive2585]

im just sitting here and i dont get a single thing but still amazed

[@FortWhenTeaThyme]

Feel free to ask.

[@weilzudope]

i love those mario 64 paintings in the background, are these in oil?

[@andrewlazar4804]

They look like displate

[@Jerome616]

1:55 i feel attacked...

[@joolian4763]

The SDI makes it pretty obvious

[@KPKaiza]

Loved watching you dissect something I’ve been waiting to see for a long time.

[@FourheadWeapon]

Alternate title: local know it all admits he’s wrong

[@Jabrilgalien]

Summary: Shots 1-5: Clearly missed. Shots 6-9: Missed due to recoil (bad spray control). Shots 10-11: Very close, but recoil and inaccuracy make these reasonable misses. Shot 12: Likely didn't actually fire because Ludwig was already dead.

[@SurferFlash]

1. I loved this video. Instant like. Well put together. 2. Once you open the door to altering the game, I believe it's challenging to argue things like this shouldn't be allowed. Using non-standard controllers purposefully provide an advantage. This, can be seen as a non-standard controller. So unfortunately if players are interested in using non-standard controllers, it will be very challenging to draw the line for what is fair and what isn't. 3. Full art MTG lands in the background? Classy.

[@pasta-and-heroin]

not in smash community at all but this was fun to watch. cheers for explaining it so succinctly. Going to subscribe cos it'd be really cool to see you do more of these; analysing games to determine a players legitimacy. cheers mate

[@aceofashot]

Appreciate the effort put into the video! From a guy that doesn't understand the fundamentals as well as they would like, it was fun to hear this!

[@irvingtamez3449]

This guy is the living embodiment of "oh hi, I didn't see you there"

[@hompa1670]

I never played smash competitively and haven't touched it in over a year. This video was recommended to me and I didn't understand it at all, but I still watched the whole thing and enjoyed it. Nice vid!

[@christianolsson2898]

It was obvious on stream as well to anyone with extensive Melee experience. The Peach player is an obvious beginner but with some perfect movement that can only be plausibly explained by the use of macros. Some people just refuse to "believe" that cheating exists; THE most common cheat fighter players use is by far macros. It's easy to implement, easy to use and will as easily be detected by any experienced player because it really stands out. A pro-player will do some of the "macro-user" things quite consistently but a macro player will NEVER fail and do it ALL the time which quickly becomes suspicious if they sorely lack in other much easier departments.

[@ZidaneTheTribal]

Those mario 64 paintings are incredible

[@colekastner3775]

Really digging the big full art basics posters in the background

[@RTB1400]

Algorithm bump. Also, I think you have a great knack for exposition/explanation.

[@fittogan]

Someone tell Sayu about DJLOOS lol it's embarassing to see wavedash down oos on peach

[@bradbucknerfl]

I’m out of the loop

[@fittogan]

@@bradbucknerfl Peach can jump out of shield and then instantly double jump, which causes her to land on the ground. It incurs significantly less lag than wavedashing down

[@t9t9t9t9t9]

didnt need to review this to see lud was right lol... you can see the peach has literally NO NEUTRAL AT ALL LIKE BRAND NEW PLAYER yet powershields and sdi's insanely... that's just not how it works out as far as how players develop, not ever lol..

[@Buglin_Burger7878]

To be fair... if someone practices skills specifically they can learn them but lack neutral. Let a high level AI beat up on you and practice Powershields/SDI. You'll have no neutral but be good at those.

[@t9t9t9t9t9]

@@Buglin_Burger7878 it's not impossible, but it's impossible

[@link0192]

My favorite thing as usual, the cheater is dogshit, proving that cheats may beat lower skill players but once you play better players it’s still gonna come down to skill depending on the game.

[@donkylefernandez4680]

Somehow has perfect tech timings without any idle animation fidgeting. (repeatedly wavedashing off of platforms, foxtrot dancing, turnip play- that came out wrong.) Basically, you can't have hours of practiced timings either from gameplay or labbing and not have some sort of favorite form of fidgeting. Even slow ass characters like Bowser have Up-B onto ledge. Sayu has perfect tech timings without performing any tech; a borp wet dream. This could only mean one thing. *MASTERED ULTRA INSTINCT!*

[@MonTheRapper420]

me (not knowing what a powershield is): ah yes he is doing the thing

[@banana1729]

I literally understand none of this but you sounded really convincing with your arguement.

[@jumpythejester6814]

Not even hacking can get you far a good player is a...Good player!

[@funa2865]

I am sure ludwig enjoys the vindication

[@nickmominee9432]

Love the mtg land art in the back. Also shout outs to Bob omb battlefield. Keep rocking my man

[@kellamyoshikage286]

At face value, I read SAYU as a Japanese name, which would leave the pronunciation as more "Sah-yu" instead of "Say-yu".

[@VolanWark]

Nice set on Unhinged lands.

[@schweagfilms7116]

I really watched this whole video not noticing your full art land prints. And you’re on about melee? Easiest subscribe ever.

[@someonehandsomewithoneeye]

i love your sm64 paintings

[@master_productions]

This was so good we need more melee content like this!

[@bananamaniac2]

I fucking love your mario 64 wall art

[@IoSkyBoyoI]

Would it be possible to explain a few of the already dumbed down explanations. It took me a while to work how who was cheating let alone what the cheats even meant or did or what benefit is being had. Found it really interesting but I felt like I missed a bunch of information.

[@HappyBeeGaming]

Might be worth looking into a few technical details of melee that you might not be familiar with. For instance, do you know what Smash DI is and how it works? Do you know what power shielding is? Do you know how wave dashing works? I’m not trying to be condescending but it’s hard to help you without knowing what level of knowledge you have (I don’t want to waste both of our time explaining something you already understand). If the problem is that you aren’t familiar with some of the advanced tech of melee then there are already great sources on KZbin explaining what these are and how they work. If you want help in this comment section, a good start would be to start by explaining what you DO understand so that others can pinpoint exactly what doesn’t track.

[@salamandar259]

Loving your sm64 pictures!

[@fletcherhartwell7702]

Im sure this was a great video, but I was too busy loving those unhinged prints

[@NixDolores]

AltF4: Sayu only jumps with X but their macro uses Y Me: Ah, the classic booster mistake of switching Flash keys

[@LazyLee]

Broken clock is right twice a day

[@Aefax]

nah it was obvious to ludwig as it should have been obvious to everyone sometimes it's just that redditors need to have an "actually, im an accredited freelance astrophysicist" moment, even when they're wrong. this guy owned up to it though, which is big.

[@LazyLee]

@@Aefax its a joke

[@tree_0550]

Deadass looking like a level 9 cpu

[@maplemox]

Love the John Avon arts on the wall

[@lukejensen1222]

Great video and those Mario 64 paintings are great!

[@fgbhrl4907]

I feel like macros can be more advanced; if you add some jitter / fuzziness to them, I doubt you will be able to detect them. You could either design a system that cycles through a set of slightly different macros with different timings each time, or just had a random amount added in real time. Eg, button A pressed for 30 ms the first time you activate the macro, 32 ms next time, etc. You could also interpolate into the macro and out of it, so it looks more natural.

[@FamilyTeamGaming]

I know this comment is a bit old, but I'm fairly sure that kind of stuff would sadly be undetectable, yes. That's how players, even high level ones sometimes, aimbot for years in FPS games and don't get caught. I think there does reach a point where the cheat is helpful but subtle enough to where you can't realistically tell apart a cheated player from a legitimate one. I'm fairly sure this is precisely why some games like Valorant are controversially opting for extremely invasive anti-cheat methods and trying to stop cheats before they even happen.

[@Apocralyph]

That's a very nice collection of paintings.

[@Sonderasf]

3:06 melee wave 😈

[@cerealhit555]

It's funny because I haven't played on Netplay for like 6 years, and I remember than a few "high ranked" people (that were unknown outside of Netplay) were acting and doing some impossible looking stuff like this.

[@cadetsparklez3300]

0:19 enough said lol

[@caerulemusic]

he has what's called the "teleport wizzy to your room" macro

[@coatlessali]

If Slippi gets anti-cheat, I'm dropping Smash

[@tonythegoat69]

Why?

[@connormcnulty6377]

Tried to look up your channel and my window closed itself

[@irangrymom]

I really enjoy this kind of content. Great video.

[@Balthazar228]

I Guess Slippi finally has a Peppi (Peppy) so you can tell when someone has “done a barrel roll” by pressing Z or R twice Player Execution Press Pad Index

[@gasser5001]

Slippi keeping ranked Smash safe. Props, gents. Doing gods work.

[@charl3282]

Is it me or does this guy look exactly like Werner Ziegler from better call saul

[@Cristeve]

Imagine if the cheater was playing as a Low Tier and he wins, everyone would hate him even more

[@danOC25]

Do i know what slippi is? Do i have any idea what is going on? The answer to all these questions is no. Did i watch through every second of the video anyway? Yes, yes i did.

[@Gwydion_Wolf]

What was suspicious to me when i saw this today.. was the fact that the one playing Peach was constantly standing with their 'back' to the other player...... That just screamed 2 things to me. 1) Either he's waiting to counter something a specific way. 2) Macro is being held in check so that all they have to do is 'turn' and it triggers whatever he's using.

[@WindBrahmin]

Don't care about who is cheating, or why. I just love the pictures on the wall. Both the Mario 64 paintings and the MTG basic lands.

[@kyleyuen245]

That Falco grabbing, then the bs DI, into another grab was priceless

[@renakunisaki]

I have no idea what most of these terms mean, but seeing that analog stick and trigger moving so fast and precisely is a dead giveaway. Perhaps the easiest counter is for the system to analyze the input log, counting the number of frame-perfect inputs and especially looking for input sequences that are exactly repeated or known to be macros.

[@DeadPlayin]

Caught in 4K UHD

[@frankaxe6700]

Good thing I am learning lines

[@samh4294]

Just letting u know, there's some audio desync with the video

[@kelownatechkid]

Awesome clear breakdown!

[@michaelbanks1207]

Sayu, say me, say it for always.

[@solrpowredflashlight]

Yo those Un lands in the background are straight 🔥

[@sutfolsemaj]

I love those unhinged basic art prints in the back. Wonder why someone would cheat in an unranked game...

[@snazzlevelzzans7093]

Imagine if Sayu put as much time into practicing as they did into cheating and still sucking

[@cetitanenthusiast776]

I think it's evident that he actually was practicing, but most of that energy went into engaging the macro instead of actual tech skill. So say he keeps using the macro and eventually gets good at using it, learning to cover up the final frame of his macros and whatnot to prevent unwanted rolls. His reactions would then be trained to the macro and not the actual game mechanics. So I think this is actually practice that will make him worse at the game overall. If he had devoted his practice to that tech he was missing instead of relying on that crutch of a cheat, he probably would've been a lot better by now. It's a shame that he seems so short sighted.

[@saltyscrub3192]

If he put that much time in he would still suck because melee is melee

[@Aefax]

if this player is doing macros for all this, and is obviously a horrendous player, why is everyone acting like this player is actually capable of powershielding all these lasers and not using a macro for that too? i get that people want to brag about how powershielding lasers is actually super easy but that's irrelevant since this dude is actually cheating

[@GaussianEntity]

Yeah I doubt the powershielding is legit. The first one already looks sketchy but the second one is definitely cheating. They shielded late for the first laser but they don't shield the fakeout? Then, they shield perfectly after doing the same back and forth movement as the first time? Looks like a macro to me.

[@Buglin_Burger7878]

The problem is how is he doing it then? If he has macros that makes very little sense as you need to time a powershield. The only way is using an bot or something... which makes it very unlikely. Macros are typically a combination of pre-set inputs tied to a button... but powershielding requires timing it with the attack hitting you. Only bots and scripts work for such things to my knowledge. In other words if he is cheating... it is a complete and utter mess.

[@foxepunz4849]

off topic, but I love your magic the gathering land prints in the background! : )

[@jordanzazulak4375]

That was actually super interesting to me and idk why. Thanks for making the video 👍

[@seanh3479]

FYI B0xx can't (shouldn't) input more than 2 SDI inputs per 9 frames of hitlag due to a built-in nerf (in Hax's 2020 documentation). Unfortunately everyone is going around blaming the b0xx for being broken at everything

[@mia_2043]

b0xx SDI nerfs don't work on dolphin because emulator polls differently than console

[@seanh3479]

@@mia_2043 The nerf is built into the arduino. Wouldn't it occur before it reaches the emulator? Or does dolphin emulator inject its own arduino C++ code?

[@exeledusprince9165]

Unrelated but those super mario 64 canvases are dope

[@dustinmichel7608]

I stopped playing ufc 2 because it was like I was in mud and my opponent was going faster than his normal stats.

[@keceti9606]

the fact that a french person was right keeps me up at night

[@bonkstephenson4803]

Those full art wall prints are insane

[@bradensorensen966]

Even at double speed this video is too slow. HOW?!