How The Z-Axis Works In Dota 2

In this video I explore the underdocumented mechanics of the z-axis in Dota 2. We take a look at some interesting spell interactions like stacking neutral camps with Kunkka's Torrent, as well as look at the difference between hitboxes and blockboxes.
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[@aliessa93]

Euls got a collision box as a nurf to sf combo in a certain patch you still can phase into it

[@dekdek5851]

Is that also the reason why you can target the Euls tornado with something like a nullifier or other dispel spells?

[@krnzzang84]

Yes my friend

[@Ortskhoev]

@@dekdek5851 In general, you can aim your abilities at the target under the influence of Eul, because you literally have to point the cursor at the character itself. This has nothing to do with the fact that there is now another collider under Eul

[@Ortskhoev]

I was wrong, I wanted to say that before it was possible to use abilities on the enemy, but it was necessary to aim at the very model that flew up, like when enemy was flying by invoker tornado or Eul, and enemy is invincible and can't be damaged. Tossed enemy still can be damaged in air, that's the difference between Eul/Tornado and Toss/Torrent/Lion's and Nyx Spikes

[@dekdek5851]

@@Ortskhoev Interesting, thank you for the insight!

[@TBPizzaz]

Not sure if they fixed it, but there used to be a lot of funky mechanics with the z-axis and Mars' arena. Where if you earthspike and spear them at the same time, the enemy would just fly over and out of the arena. Great vid

[@memelordozai8553]

They removed it

[@steffkepn2]

This, i saw tossed Antimage by Tiny that was speared at the same time by Mars, he just flew above Mars fences and ofcourse he just blink away to safety...

[@ameyakale2739]

Night Stalker in his ult could literally fly out of arena without bkb - it was hilarious 😂

[@pepes-6707]

@@ameyakale2739 they already fixed it, arena now cannot be bypassed by any means except debuff immunity (rage, spin jug, repel, bkb) and invulnerability (wind waker, shard astral)

[@shooby9496]

That's honestly funny. I'd like to see some reactions to that happening lol.

[@o.colpus]

That's really interesting. Few days ago I showed my brother the "trick" of stacking camps with Kunkka's Torrent. He didn't know how that was possible. He even thought it was a bug. It's a neat and mysterious part of DOTA 2. To be fair, the one for Puck's Dream Coil seems like one of the most clever usages of vertical movement. I knew it was possible, but thought it had something to do with delayed activation or effect like Lion and Lina's ults, so I thought it had a really really small margin to make it work. Knowing that now... This seems pretty OP.

[@LarsKuhlmannCourtwright]

To be fair stacking at all is technically, or I guess more accurately, historically a bug. There are other examples I'm sure of bugs that just became mechanics over time I just am big tired and can't remember atm.

[@suyunbek1399]

every bug is a feature that is too op to be left out. every feature is a bug that is balanced enough to be a part of the game.

[@justinv.9209]

You can simply say "Dota 2 is still in beta"

[@suyunbek1399]

@@justinv.9209 it is left ambigous so you really can't say that from the political point of view. and you shouldn't. undervaluing other people's work is not a healthy hobby even if these people are THE AUTHORITIES.

[@warrenchristopherson7496]

You can stack using Kk's torrent or lion's spike. But from what i know, you dont get the money when the stack is taken. Nor does it count as your stack.

[@elyb1494]

It's also worth mentioning that chrono will freeze units in the air if another spell is casted to put them their

[@msgdeletdbymod4471]

u can wind waker opponents or allies innthe chrono as well

[@abdulhameedalhajy4593]

Blood Seeker Ult and Primal Beast Ult work together and it counts as a movement when Primal lifts him up and down and it dose a lot of damahe😂😂

[@LarsKuhlmannCourtwright]

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that's because primal ult still has horizontal movement back and forth as he swings in an arc. The z movement shouldn't be what's doing the damage.

[@oscargonzalez3599]

that is a good theory really, I do wonder, also some of the more new skills and abilities seem to be broken in the game, like they don't follow some of the previews Dota system and what not. Don't have any example in the mind, but Primal Beast Ult. is one of those. @@LarsKuhlmannCourtwright

[@ClaudioBOsorio]

As a programmer who is Not involved in game developing. I find this video fascinating because it explains the thought process and design of the game. I also learn something new regarding the game I spent so much time on :P. Keep it up Adrian. :D

[@Alttoviulu92]

Euls did have the exact interaction you hoped for. Some patches ago, you could move under the tornado freely. However, euls was given a blockbox so people cannot cast spells while under enemy hero (mostly shadow fiend could use this to use his ultimate directly on top of an enemy).

[@dave8650]

Sb phaseboots no problem

[@DrHydroxide]

Great explanation! This might be the first video on KZbin to explain the z-axis in Dota in such detail

[@olgierd245]

Coming from league this is fascinating, I wanna explore the engine a bit more and it's amazing that you're doing videos about stuff like that. Thanks!

[@luiszapata6864]

This is the nerdiest video I've seen of dota so far wp!

[@lordless12]

This is dope

[@m136dalie]

Was really cool to these interactions fleshed out, especially with the in-game examples. Awesome video as always

[@aliessa93]

also about the euls hight breaking the puck ult its the rocking forward is what breaks not the distance going up cause you can see in this example going up for much more than going forward but only breaking when going forward [ indicated by the circle under the hero (the hero hitbox) ] kzbin.info/www/bejne/paawhWiPZamEkNk

[@godsparticle7657]

Only thing to learn from this video is breaking puck coil with Euls by making use of the extra distance using hypothenus theorem.

[@berezki_plakali]

Actually it doesn't work that way. As you can see position of flying in euls unit is moving a little bit around. Once it moves out of the coil radius it brakes.

[@killaunamlbb6710]

high quality video as usual, keep up the good work. been here since 1.5k sub and still impressed

[@24.k.g.f.97]

Very cool thank you for taking the time to get this info out

[@Razomka]

Really cool, I knew that pro lion supports will earth spike enemy supports trying to body block the camp from spawning. Just spike them a second prior to the spawn and you'll get the creeps.

[@Asnilz1]

Great job explaining man. Well detailed. Z-axis is very interesting 😅

[@ValkRX]

Awesome video, super insightful!

[@arshiatavakoli7667]

Dude you re thinking about somethings that i would never notice but thx for teaching us and i always learn new thing with you keep it up

[@raulmontero8736]

Great job bro. Thanks for bringing this up! 👍🏻

[@MegaBundesen]

Very interesting video, a couple things. The Euls break the puck latch because euls spins you in a circle and the edge of that circle is outside puck coil range. Not the height of the euls but the movement sideways in euls. Also there is an interaction aswell. There is a way to perfectly time a toss straight up do dodge cataclysm damage. Try it 20ish times and you will notice it. You dodge usually only 1 of the sunstrikes but its still dodged by tossing straight up

[@anton6499]

I believe you're not dodging it with toss, rather, cataclysm's unreliability even against a stationary target

[@Jasoniswhat]

Love your videos man! You always do a great job

[@ChariTile]

sick video man. always see videos like this for TF2 and CSGO but never for Dota. Love them

[@michael_hutchie]

What a great vid, always been using stubs to stack camps:)

[@fieryfirefly5769]

Another thing to consider with the Z axis is that it counts for movement spells that go a certain distance. I've had a few situations with a spell like the Monkey king shard jump getting stopped short by an obs cliff that was in the way

[@calisama9215]

I never knew this until now, Thanks for the guide! You earn my sub.

[@xGenierationGTx]

God of explanations. My thank you!

[@VadimKrylov-yv9ov]

отличное и очень интересное видео. Спасибо! Давно интересовал этот вопрос. Продолжай в этом же темпе

[@muhframos]

Not sure if this has been fixed, but as Mars I've had a few scenarios where, if Spear of Mars hits an enemy affected by Lion's Earth Spike, on a few instances the enemy will go right over the walls of the Arena of Blood ability. It's been pretty sad experiencing this mechanic before lol.

[@Raggmunk81]

I'm fairly certain the Dream Coil interaction with Eul's on the edge of the break point is because Eul's also moves you a slight distance laterally, and the coil ends up breaking from X/Y distance rather than Z-axis distance.

[@luishurtado2170]

So Pitagoras is more far fetched? not sure about that one...

[@Raggmunk81]

If the added distance due to Z-axis movement was the deciding factor the coil would break close to the center rather than only at the edge. You can see at 1:15 how Eul's moves the cycloned target slightly, that slight distance is enough to move you outside of Coil's break distance if used right at the edge.

[@Z0REX]

This is correct

[@Pmon21]

love how you explore hitbox and blockbox. can you explain to us about Dota2's *overkill death animation* ? thanks and more likes in your efforts.

[@marysadventures]

Very cool my dude 👌 great video

[@alparslanklc434]

Always fun to watch

[@Hershka1212]

The 'blockbox' you are referring to may be one of the BoundsHullName constants set in the npc_heroes.txt and npc_units.txt files. As far as I'm aware that is how units and heroes 'size' is set for gameplay purposes like pathfinding, unit collision, and spells like Pudges hook or Miranas arrow.

[@jefjeferson9886]

Interesting video, now to apply this in my pubs

[@Xaqetr]

Bro you hooked me just with title, whatever you do keep doing that, thx god there are people that do this stuff, im just in first second, but you can stack camp with lion q, also more heroes obviously, coz hitbox of thr neutral camp has height limit which is not shown in game

[@Xaqetr]

Oh well if i didnt stop it in first second i wouldnt explain all of that nvm

[@AlexRodriguez-cr8cs]

Amazingly well explained. Great stuff! Maybe for future video you could go into the beauty of when a target is in two places at once (getting stunned in base after a tp, or the famous tp in the last 2.5 seconds after relocate that gets you to base).

[@SubZeroSoundworks]

This was changed long ago, I know Adrian is a wisp player, as am I, I do not recall the exact patch but essentially they fixed this around 2018 or so. It is not possible anymore. That concept might spark another cool mechanic though!

[@BeaverOfDooom]

Yeah or when you get hooked and disrupted (by SD) at the same time leading to some visual shenanigans.

[@ModaFaca]

Congratulations for the interesting topic

[@mmortal8183]

Blink dagger and blast off also get affected by the z-axis. Your indicator will show one thing but wont take into account the height of the ward hill, leading to you cliffing yourself.

[@jaapgerritsen84]

Very entertaining trivia

[@christyantodorov7485]

You can see Z axis example if you hook SK while he is stunning. The blockbox is underground, but the hitbox is on the ground so you are getting hooked

[@iksbob_]

I finally realize now, why euls breaks the dream coil if used at the very edge! I always thought that euls moves you a few pixels to the side while spinning and that’s why you get out of the coil aoe (so I thought it basically had to be a pixel perfect trick), but now I understand that’s because of the z axis, so I can actually try to use it from farther away, good to know

[@iksbob_]

Also I think that cold feet debuff breaking because of z axis is kinda lame and should be changed

[@Isekai-Ojisan]

That euls coil break counter made my day 😂

[@heyhoe168]

1:30 this was actually introduced very recently as a fix for the eul SF nuke.

[@konstantinospalapanidis6414]

An interesting case to look into: Void makes chronosphere. Earthshaker jumps onto the chronosphere and gets stuck (i think) on the ceiling of the dome. Investigate!

[@zaslayer]

Best thing the internet has to offer. Thanks

[@wilgotwall]

There are a lot of these "info" videos about cool things on the TF2 side of KZbin, and it'd be sick if there were more of that over here at the Dota front. Love to see it. Keep it up with stuff like this.

[@blazemui]

Lmao all this time i thought dream coil eul trick is random old bug. Nice video!

[@KawatanGaming]

Also note the double jump (as I call it) bug that happens to every game (includes other non related to MOBA games) I've played. If a unit gets upward movement and while in the air, gets another upward movement, the unit jumps and kisses god in heaven (exaggeration since the upward movement will be on multiplication not addition). Some of the games I've seen/encountered this is dota 1, Dota 2, LoL, HoN, Special Force, etc. Just like I've mentioned, I think the variable that causes the upward movement is by multiplication (example: at normal, everyone is 1 unit on ground. Then an upward movement ability applied. That 1unit * (the ability's multiplier). So when two upward abilities applied consecutively in quick succession, a double jump bug occurs.

[@nukeofficial1103]

oh damn I always thought the coil breaks because euls spins you around a bit, so that at one point you're outside of the leash range (on the x-y plane)

[@lindbloom7]

Would've loved to see a discussion about the legendary toss buyback, on how it spawned you back to the toss destination, they "fixed" it of course due to it happening in tournament, but would love to hear everyone's take on it

[@Salammaleicu]

yo, this crazy, thanks. I dont think it's something that will make a difference in regards to win or lose or stuff, but its good to know this. one of 100 games, it will be useful xD good job tho, it is fun and interesting

[@asacarpenter1162]

You can use the z axis to escape Mars' arena. I was playing Lion with a Mars on my team. He trapped an enemy in arena and used spear at the same time I used earth spike causing the enemy to be high enough in the z axis to be thrown over the arena walls. A very small window of time for this to happen and I didn't expect it at all. It was my first time seeing the z axis in play.

[@memelordozai8553]

Removed now

[@Library4Lich]

Duuude amazing video

[@nandaiser]

There's also interaction with techies suicide jump that actually really matter if you jump over a higher terrain you wont land on the supposed indicator you'll stuck on the hill instead

[@krakan33]

I've knew about smth like that? but explaination was really interesting

[@romansmirnov467]

If I am not mistaken there's a certain ward in the game and it has an animation of tossing its little eye up and your projectile also needs to go higher in order to hit, so technically if you use this ward you'll get the advantage (the ward will live longer or you'll have more time to deny it)

[@The_Boulder_]

The type of content dota needs

[@d_Rub]

Iirc, in the earlier days of dota Rupture did work in a combo with Tiny's toss

[@jamesmcdonald5120]

lovely video!

[@philcajurao]

sheeeesh beating the game by its own game. this is what we needed

[@johnhofmann2828]

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that Eul’s breaks Coil not because of the Z-axis, but because Eul’s moves you in a small circle. So if you’re right on the edge, it can push your X-distance past the Coil radius.

[@nelsonchacko2086]

How did u edit this video??? You are becoming something that I always aspired to be. A true researcher in Dota. Now let’s research the topic on what are the effective ways to improve in dota. Replay analysis and such.

[@_HaSSaaN_]

Really informative video, although I already know most of these matters

[@Rnjeazy]

That thumbnail is hilarious 😂

[@hate-po8bn]

1:15 it was worked like normal z-axis, and was changed in 7.23 to fuck up SF

[@dota-ed4638]

Euls interaction with puck is not due to vertical elevation, it is possible because the center of the unit is rotated around the eul tornado, which allows you to move away from the coil ever so slighlty. Which makes the margin extremely small. Further proof of it would be no other elevation snaps the coil in the game

[@sneakydoom]

I'm curious about burrow abilities effect on the Z axis. Burrowstrike, nyx burrow, meepo burrow, do these negative z axis movements have any exploitable axis advantages?

[@mohammedanwer9322]

sorry for bad english but i have to say some stuff I'm a game developer in i know some little stuff about it, usually when making a game charcutier we give it "component" and those component are the one who give the charcutier it's behave , like that hitbox(for getting damage) and collision(blocking), also there is the mesh component, it's the one that show the design and animation. even the tossing is a component that the game give it to a hero for a moment and make it behave the (toss). and the heroes not the only objects that have those components, also almost any projectile have some of them too, and when it reach a hero, one of 2 (or both) things happened : 1- change hero stats (like get hit, or getting slow) 2- give it a component (like stuns) the problem begins in the link of all of that, like the component of stun should be connected to the hitbox component or the mesh component or the collision component?

[@DarioVicentini97]

Unity works with components, but the dota engine could be different, we don't know because is proprietary engine. Anyway your guesses of components are probably kinda off, even if the engine works with components the toss is not necessary one of it, but probably part of an ability system. Same about stun ecc. We can't explain what we don't know, but only guess

[@lamMeTV]

Please include which camps can be stacked by which spells!

[@maxdroulez7305]

Nice video, however for the representation of the heros's hitboxes it is very unlikely they are detailed hitboxes like in fpses, it's probably just a sphere or a capsule. Also you may want to check wether having a height difference with the target reduces the effective horizontal range of targeted abilities. If it doesn't, it mean the distance check is not done via the hitbox but via a vertical distance check with the target.

[@jhonreduss9079]

hello can u make a video about fatal bond warlock's third skill? i still can grasp how the spell actually works thanks!

[@rezakiyan8844]

Thank you so much ♥

[@EDOukr]

What about primal beast's ultie with Rupture? Does it work because it's not only moving the enemy in the z axis?

[@CodeBoxDE]

good work. i like

[@idwg560]

I think dream coil and euls mechanics is a bit different. While flying in the euls your hero spins around and breaks the link, which is not happening with windranger arcana since she is not spinning. Try it out, maybe i just can’t hit it with arcana somehow, without arcana wr breaks coil just fine

[@Joshua-lv9cj]

Great video

[@zacwong2151]

ive seen a video explaining the euls trick with puck's coil before, and essentially casting euls on yourself causes ur hero to move around very slightly. When your hero moves slightly out of the coil's max range while still in the air, the coil breaks. Is this the explanation, or is it cos the z-axis mentioned in this vid?

[@suspensionstudios]

Something I've noticed but never tested, the range of earth spirits spells in relation to rocks on different elevations appears to be incorrect, as if it takes the height into account of the range of the spells. For example: if a rock is below you, it's near impossible to kick it even if it appears to be close enough to you. Not sure if they ever fixed that.

[@ski4life108]

Do a follow up about what can and can’t go over arena

[@anirudhranjan2934]

This explains why pudge can hook a Eul'd target. Hook detects the hitbox rather than Blockbox

[@fifofuko1864]

euls also used to proc sand king's shard (before it got destroyed)

[@invictapro2087]

some interesting shit here, nice video

[@RuddenLyter]

Very interesting one

[@cooh2]

You should talk something about primal beast's ultimate, since it is different, it isn't even showed on the list of abilities. And I guess it moves hitbox, since I remember Dota wtf moment where Hudwink didn't land her ultimate because of PB's ultimate. Eul should work like this as well, but probably aoe doesn't work because of invincibility.

[@Kik4s]

I've been thrown and ulted as Huskar into the Chronosphere, and it always felt like it stopped me accurately. So does it work off the collision box or the hitbox?

[@the_primal_instinct]

Being able to walk under elevated units is actually pretty useful if you're trying to escape and want to avoid bodyblocks.

[@tasede]

Hoodwinks bushwack can be dodge by getting hit high enough ( Tusk punch is the one ive noticed the most.

[@Cyrus_II]

A long time ago I saw a clip of sanding, stunning someone inside a mars arena, And they were lifted by the sand King Stun, And while they were lifted, Mars shot his spear And the spear push them out of the arena Instead of nailing them to the wall of the arena. They may have changed this since

[@cameronchen2346]

I know some heroes can jump out of things like disruptor's wall. Curious about that. Also nightstalker can fly, when he is flying can camps respawn under him?

[@Tsunam1_]

i enjoyed this, but how did you made visiblie there net(grid) for whole map on terrain? give me console command pls

[@sebastianbonilla1323]

In a nutshell: pick tiny vs aa and toss anyone with ice feet -Learn the trick with puck

[@howiieb]

Euls breaks Dream Coil not because of the Z axis, but because of the way the animation slightly moves the hero's X and Y positions. Windranger's arcana has a different Euls animation that doesn't do this, and as a result doesn't break the coil.

[@ITZBROKENhotDOG12]

Holy shit this game is so complex I love it.

[@oscargonzalez3599]

I think the Eul block really make sense, there is a mini tornato lifting a hero to the air, pretty sure you should be able to pass that freely X,D But yeah, this is something that I have notice and learn with time, which is very interesting, like I learn that you can get out from Mar's Blood Arena if you are lift up AND push to the side, moving out of the Arena. EDIT: Also, regarding to Enchantress, I think that it does not increase the damage for the same reason as the Hit-Box concept, it is in the ground AND as you say, it does not break the spell limit range. Enchantress is using a modifier skill/ability, I bet it affect the Hitbox, not the Blockbox. Same with Blood Seeker Ultimate, affect the Hitbox and not the Block Box.

[@MowwGamingofficial]

Cool documentary

[@frasermcaulay8]

Invoker staking with tornado looks op as supp inboker, Don't even need to walk to the camp

[@sunnymaharjan4999]

Magnus can't skewer the tossed unit if he skewers while unit is mid-air right?

[@andriyveklych4251]

Isnt height axis called y instead if z? X - forward backward z - left right y- up and down?

[@TheVillageFarmer]

This is great, when I play Lion I always try to stack camps more efficiently by earthspiking them. Now I know some camps can't be stacked that way/are harder due to taller Z-axis boxes. Are you able to make a quick guide of which boxes are shorter and taller at all?

[@sp1n1n68]

He kinda showed in the video, so if you need it, look for it here

[@anthonymercuri8885]

I never tried stacking with earth spike, it seems like it would difficult. I didn't even expect it would lift high enough. It always seemed just like a visual effect, a very slight lift. And also, doesn't it hit the units closer to you a fraction of a second before the ones further? So it would be hard to have all the creeps in the air at the same time in order to not block the spawn box.

[@TheVillageFarmer]

He touched on the fact some are similar some are different, but then mentioned that many have different sizes. Not easy to tell what are stackable with Q and what arent.@@sp1n1n68

[@TheVillageFarmer]

Yeah that's why it's such a split-second mechanic, you got this mexican wave of creeps to try to throw into the air at the same time as the clock hitting the next minute. It's in no way a reliable method but I've found a few times where it'd be useful for multistacking as I'm pulling another camp at the same time and you can't reach them in time for a normal pull.@@anthonymercuri8885