How To Change One's Mind {Episode 01}

  Рет қаралды 690,677

Counter Arguments

Counter Arguments

Күн бұрын

Пікірлер: 2 000
@technicality
@technicality 6 жыл бұрын
Going to watch 12 Angry Men now
@Halcypian
@Halcypian 6 жыл бұрын
While you're at it, maybe upload... possibly?
@alialmuhanna4938
@alialmuhanna4938 6 жыл бұрын
It's a great movie ! Enjoy.
@vakaresurvylaite1029
@vakaresurvylaite1029 6 жыл бұрын
Me too! xD
@Hart8
@Hart8 6 жыл бұрын
Hey, it's nice to see you here.
@tobibello4160
@tobibello4160 6 жыл бұрын
Same here...
@Captain1nsaneo
@Captain1nsaneo 6 жыл бұрын
The best line was given by the first person to change their vote: "It's hard for one man to stand alone."
@haydensewall2537
@haydensewall2537 5 жыл бұрын
A leader is nothing without brave first followers.
@ivanvasquezhirsch6132
@ivanvasquezhirsch6132 4 жыл бұрын
The line exactly is:” Is not easy stand alone.” But in the same way, the meaning is the same and powerful!
@ruskinpeter3396
@ruskinpeter3396 3 жыл бұрын
kzbin.info/www/bejne/fnqWfWSXpZiHn5o
@jsharp3165
@jsharp3165 2 жыл бұрын
9 is my hero in many ways. The first to support 8. The only one to closely observe the body language, appearance, and emotional signals of the witnesses. And of the jury.
@patsrule00
@patsrule00 6 жыл бұрын
While Juror #8's strategies are great to look at, I also should say that Juror #4 deserves a lot of credit. He picked his battles, admitted defeat in certain arguments (what were you doing 3 days ago), admitted other points that the other juror had. I wish that Jurors 4 and 8 were viewed in the same light, because from the beginning Juror #4 was always rational and reasonable. He had legitimate reasons to think that the boy was guilty, and just because in the end he turned out to be wrong doesn't mean that he fell into the "trap" of assuming guilt. Now, Juror #8 was the one that changed everyone's mind and undertook a much greater feat than #4 due to his patience and open mind, but #4 needs to be spoken about in my opinion.
@Zift_Ylrhavic_Resfear
@Zift_Ylrhavic_Resfear 6 жыл бұрын
The description of the video says it's the first of a series on that movie, so maybe he'll focus on #4 in a later video.
@thatdudeinthecotton
@thatdudeinthecotton 6 жыл бұрын
While we don't find out for certain whether or not the boy did it, we are actually given a hint as to another suspect (or should I say group of suspects) who could have committed the murder. In the boys story he says he bought the knife, afterwards he went to the movies. On the way there he says that the knife fell out of his pocket without him noticing. These are all the events the jury look at however there is one more event which occurs after the boy buys the knife and before he goes to the movies. He shows the knife off to his friends. Several boys the same age as the accused, who would know that the boy is going to the movies and would thus know that his apartment would be empty save for potentially his father. Now the boy doesn't know the knife fell out of his pocket, he assumes that based on the fact that it is no longer there. It is entirely possible that one of his friends saw this exotic knife and decided to procure it for themselves, afterwards using it to commit the crime. Such a criminal would be smart to leave the knife behind after clearing it of fingerprints such that the boy would come back and be framed for his fathers murder. The witnesses in the movie both have their ability to directly see the murderer questioned, so it is not unlikely that they assumed they saw the accused when in actuality they simply saw a boy of similar age. However as this detail is never explored further in the movie, there is never any particularly special motive given to this potential suspect beyond the fact that the victim was an utterly horrible person and wanton criminal himself. It would seem that he simply intended to rob the apartment he assumed was empty, taking the knife as protection should he be wrong, got into an altercation with the father and then fled the scene of the murder after wiping the knife of fingerprints.
@char6547
@char6547 6 жыл бұрын
This video wasn't about their intial conclusions though. It was more about the tactics they used. #4 ultimately failed because he was forceful with his arguments and unwilling to move, which puts people on the defensive. #8 on the otherhand was more passive and open-minded, which welcomed people into considering his point of view.
@jordansweet8054
@jordansweet8054 6 жыл бұрын
Hmm,fair point.I've always thought he was a solid character.
@thuglifebear5256
@thuglifebear5256 6 жыл бұрын
#4 and #5 were always my favorite jurors. Excluding the main character ofc.
@1990gollum
@1990gollum 6 жыл бұрын
You present a really interesting idea, but I think there is a factor you are not considering: The objective of juror #8 was not to convince them that the boy was innocent, but that there was reasonable doubt about his guilt. His thesis is not "the boy did not do it" but rather "we cannot know with certainty". It is not accurate to say that "everyone else has been convinced that the boy is not guilty" since what happened instead was that everyone was convinced that there was reasonable doubt and therefore they should not convict him. He was successful at driving them to reevaluate their own understanding of the situation, which was enough to achieve the goal of a not guilty verdict, but if his goal had been convincing them to reach a different conclusion instead of demonstrating the existence of reasonable doubt, then chances are that this strategy would not have been as effective.
@LordVader1094
@LordVader1094 6 жыл бұрын
@Drinker_Of_Milk Exactly. So while the points mentioned in this video are useful, all it generally will get you is creating uncertainty in whoever you're talking to, rather than certain agreement with you.
@oskarhenriksen
@oskarhenriksen 5 жыл бұрын
@@LordVader1094 I like to call 12 Angry Men "Reasonable Doubt, The Movie"
@aram00001
@aram00001 5 жыл бұрын
Great point. Typically, the goal of a debate is to get the other person to agree with you. I think this can be put in two steps: 1) convenice the other person to have doubt in the truth their position, and 2) get them to agree with you. Here, it was just to get everyone to have some level of doubt regarding their positions (step 1 only). The tactics covered here are great for step 1. But, they are not going to do much good for step 2. That usually requires more force and charisma.
@TheBBear86
@TheBBear86 5 жыл бұрын
Also worth mentioning that others in the room can be convinced by your presentation, demeanor, and argument. So while you may direct your point at one person, your impact may be greater on those who you are not directly addressing.
@nobodygh
@nobodygh 5 жыл бұрын
Yes, there's a difference between changing someone's mind and getting them to reach a certain conclusion. As a life coach, it is my job to change my clients' minds about their problems and I employ strategies. The conclusions they reach are always their own and often brilliant, and that's why I love my side hustle.
@evaadams4243
@evaadams4243 5 жыл бұрын
12 Angry Men literally changed my temperament whenever I find myself in the middle of an argument. Mr. Fonda's character's strategy does work!
@bendtfender2894
@bendtfender2894 Жыл бұрын
200th like ;)
@nottoday3878
@nottoday3878 Жыл бұрын
It only works with gentlemens and there are different people
@nstix2009xitsn
@nstix2009xitsn Жыл бұрын
@evaadams4243 "12 Angry Men literally changed my temperament whenever I find myself in the middle of an argument. Mr. Fonda's character's strategy does work!" Then you're a dishonest person.
@revengance4149
@revengance4149 Жыл бұрын
@@nstix2009xitsn Im not gonna ask why you think that. instead Im gonna ask you why you wrote ""12 Angry Men literally changed my temperament whenever I find myself in the middle of an argument. Mr. Fonda's character's strategy does work!" Then you're a dishonest person." rather than "Then you're a dishonest person.". it's really annoying when people do that. this isn't an english exam where you have to quote the source material. just write your response like a sane person
@nstix2009xitsn
@nstix2009xitsn Жыл бұрын
@@revengance4149 "it's really annoying when people do that. this isn't an english exam where you have to quote the source material. just write your response like a sane person" It's called courtesy, with which you are apparently unfamiliar, and which you evidently equate with insanity.
@dokidoki777
@dokidoki777 6 жыл бұрын
*_I'm gonna take over the world passively._*
@fredrickreloaded4488
@fredrickreloaded4488 6 жыл бұрын
The one punch man of debate
@maddie_1122
@maddie_1122 6 жыл бұрын
Welcome to Undertale.
@SideBurns
@SideBurns 6 жыл бұрын
...u might
@maddie_1122
@maddie_1122 6 жыл бұрын
@@SideBurns I would say please don't guilt trip me again but I set myself up
@HPPrintervx4p5q
@HPPrintervx4p5q 6 жыл бұрын
Plz don't anime pfp
@AtenaHena
@AtenaHena 6 жыл бұрын
i like that the video is in black and white
@kozstandsya1494
@kozstandsya1494 6 жыл бұрын
Why?
@kozstandsya1494
@kozstandsya1494 6 жыл бұрын
Oh you meant the counter arguments video or the movie?
@InfiniteRadiiEdge
@InfiniteRadiiEdge 6 жыл бұрын
Obviously, the film is [in black-and-white], but the fact that the usual colors the Counter Arguments channel is also channeled into the style of their film [12 Angry Men (1957) ] would be the most likely cause for praise-- the video and the film share an artistic style.
@jyryhalonen4990
@jyryhalonen4990 6 жыл бұрын
damn I didn't even realise before this comment
@cylejh
@cylejh 6 жыл бұрын
@Delta 029 That is a probable conclusion, but I am not sure in this case. Now i could be wrong, but shouldn't we at least take the time to figure out, before some channel ends up in the dumps because of our choices?
@shawesomest
@shawesomest 6 жыл бұрын
I like how the video is 12 minutes, and the video involves a movie named "12 Angry Men"
@Tsukiko.97
@Tsukiko.97 6 жыл бұрын
You like, I love.
@whoadermatespoodlefunk65
@whoadermatespoodlefunk65 6 жыл бұрын
11:59 u frick.
@Mixinnitup
@Mixinnitup 6 жыл бұрын
SAVVY!I like it
@RETVRNAVGVSTVS
@RETVRNAVGVSTVS 6 жыл бұрын
Seems somewhat intentional
@williamhughes2396
@williamhughes2396 6 жыл бұрын
In Australia time this was also uploaded at noon...
@valdemarsoderstrom439
@valdemarsoderstrom439 5 жыл бұрын
Wasn’t it technically 11 angry men then?
@deebs12
@deebs12 5 жыл бұрын
Noodleboy12 oof
@pinkocean310
@pinkocean310 5 жыл бұрын
Noodleboy12 11 aggressive men and 1 passive-aggressive man
@darkrealmlight92
@darkrealmlight92 5 жыл бұрын
Harvard would like to know your location.
@laserbrain7774
@laserbrain7774 5 жыл бұрын
No. It is correct the way it is.
@leebrown486
@leebrown486 5 жыл бұрын
Actually I thought there was only a few truly angry men haha. Although each character gets angry expressing their argument at least once in the film so the title stands true to the film.
@akhilbabu_
@akhilbabu_ 5 жыл бұрын
It is important to note that this method will not work in a contest or debating against a person's long-held belief, or in politics. Certainly, juror #3 has the best method there. That is what's effective since your aim is to not change your opponent's mind but to move the audience to your side. Expressing uncertainty there is a huge mistake. But if your aim is to change the mind of your opponent(s) specifically, like changing short term opinions, arguing with your family members to change their view etc, juror #8's method is the way to go about doing it. To sum it up, both the methods should be used and are effective in different situations and it is up to us to choose the best way.
@grain3880
@grain3880 5 жыл бұрын
Akhil Babu Muraleedharan that’s very insightful. If you show passion in what you believe you can persuade a majority, but if your brashly against a personal opponent it fails as you can’t compromise when your purely against someone, understanding the others point of view and showing why you believe what you believe neutrally is most affective if you need to talk to one
@reyaflygunn9243
@reyaflygunn9243 5 жыл бұрын
Yes, the method of number 8 is specifically geared towards changing a debater's mind. Its also strong in that elements of it can convince an audience. The reason why one would not want to use his method is due to time restrictions and the lack of a forced agreement at the end of a debate. You can take a lot from 8's methods and apply it to debates: not contesting useless points, presenting new arguments for the audience instead of reiterating old ones for the opponent, and showing that you have a mindset that could be changed is great for audiences to agree with you. Furthermore, while 3 is passionate, he isnt smart about his passion. He is often rude, angry, and dismissive; this doesnt create a connection with the audience because observers will contrast the angry one with the rational one. He disagrees with valid points, which opens up weaknesses in his arguments. Juror 3 is not suitable for any debate. If someone relies on an obstinate auduence who is already in agreement, that person is not doing anything to change minds.
@MindcraftMax
@MindcraftMax 5 жыл бұрын
Well, both these methods are useful in case you want to impress the audience or win your opponent to your way of thinking, but none of them actually sets you on the path to the truth, which I suppose could seem to be the initial goal of a debate. There is a third way, supposing the other people in the room are also looking for the truth: - for each possibility, assess what you think its probability is and why, - then see if the other people have new information that could update these probabilities, - state your reasons to the others so that they update their own probabilites and maybe come up with new argumentations that can emerge from the pooling of ideas; - finally if a unanimous decision must be reached, organise a vote while assigning a slightly higher weight to more knowledgeable people on the matter. Obviously that's an ideal method, in practice it's probably never going to happen like I described (e.g. human beings are not rational), but you can at least tend toward that, and _you_ - and every participant in the debate - should come closer to the _truth_, rather than making _other people_ - be it an audience or other debaters - closer to _your opinion_…
@shadowthunder
@shadowthunder 5 жыл бұрын
@@MindcraftMax 8 actually tried to tend towards the path you're describing though, finding the truth, but like you said he wasn't flawless
@Be_Rational89
@Be_Rational89 4 жыл бұрын
Yup, i agree. They are just tools that you can you use for different scenarios.
@Austioh
@Austioh 6 жыл бұрын
Starting the new year with a new kind of video you haven't done before? I like it.
@Xanthas998
@Xanthas998 6 жыл бұрын
I liked it too
@FixTheWi-Fi
@FixTheWi-Fi 5 жыл бұрын
I agree.
@michaelpisciarino5348
@michaelpisciarino5348 6 жыл бұрын
0:00 12 Angry Men: A tale of argument and human psychology. 0:50 Title Card 1:24 Juror 8 vs Juror 3 (Innocent vs Guilty) 2:10 He says he is not trying to change anyone's mind Juror 8 Analysis 2:30 Passive Personality 3:31 Expressing Uncertainty 5:56 Does not contest every rebuttal (Chooses his battles, does not reason against reasonable points) 8:41 Rarely states his disagreement. Often states his agreement. Juror 3 is the opposite. The FOIL to Juror 8 5:13 Expressing Certainty 7:13 Impulsively fights every battle 9:32 Shout down any disagreement. Never states any agreement 4:12 How can you change someone's mind if your not sure of yourself? Well, it provides an opening to have a dialogue and allows everyone else the chance of changing their own mind. 11:09 Conclusion
@Kaixero
@Kaixero 6 жыл бұрын
Excellent post
@Clickle
@Clickle 6 жыл бұрын
This is great, thanks
@richcampus
@richcampus 6 жыл бұрын
Number 3 represents the far left in the modern decade on social media platforms. Perhaps.
@seiban8455
@seiban8455 6 жыл бұрын
I'm not going to say this is a bad post. It's a great post. Timestamp comments are great. I will ask you; why did you feel the need to make one for a ten minute long essay?
@alveolate
@alveolate 6 жыл бұрын
you actually think the far left is unique in being stubborn? have you seen alex jones' fans?
@AbnormalWrench
@AbnormalWrench 6 жыл бұрын
This may or may not have been a good video.
@whitedrake6933
@whitedrake6933 6 жыл бұрын
Probably
@SallyStangler
@SallyStangler 6 жыл бұрын
@R M But the possibility is improbable.
@matthewbeat
@matthewbeat 6 жыл бұрын
You're right.
@ForOrAgainstUs
@ForOrAgainstUs 6 жыл бұрын
I'm not saying it was or it wasn't. I'm just saying it's possible!
@safapresley
@safapresley 6 жыл бұрын
I don't know
@michaelsabando7962
@michaelsabando7962 4 жыл бұрын
Girls at my high school: “Shut up no ones talking to you!” “W-we were having an argument”
@ruskinpeter3396
@ruskinpeter3396 3 жыл бұрын
kzbin.info/www/bejne/fnqWfWSXpZiHn5o
@BallerDan53
@BallerDan53 5 жыл бұрын
I used to think this was a courtroom drama. It is actually 12 character studies rolled into one film.
@turevedin9968
@turevedin9968 5 жыл бұрын
this video is exactly 12 minutes long...
@diapysik
@diapysik 5 жыл бұрын
Nice hot dog girl pic
@turevedin9968
@turevedin9968 5 жыл бұрын
@@diapysik Ah, I see your a man of culture as well. fun fact: on my google account my profile pic is the actual gif. you can have a gif on your google account profile
@TylerJMacDonald
@TylerJMacDonald 5 жыл бұрын
@@turevedin9968 Lindsay Ellis being called just "hot dog girl" hurts a little, but is funny af
@nicholasleclerc1583
@nicholasleclerc1583 5 жыл бұрын
Ture Vedin Coincidence ? I think NOT !!!
@FlorissMusic
@FlorissMusic 5 жыл бұрын
All of his video’s are X minutes long
@BhaswataChoudhury-e2e
@BhaswataChoudhury-e2e 6 жыл бұрын
i love how everyone in the comment section has a masters degree in psychology
@herokiryu2652
@herokiryu2652 5 жыл бұрын
Like you? Seems like you shot yourself in the foot
@razalasreficul6902
@razalasreficul6902 5 жыл бұрын
@@herokiryu2652, no, it doesn't.
@SgtTeddybear66
@SgtTeddybear66 5 жыл бұрын
Sooo, People are not allowed to have a discussion?
@SgtTeddybear66
@SgtTeddybear66 5 жыл бұрын
@@omi691 I just like calling people out on their bullshit.
@SFgamer
@SFgamer 5 жыл бұрын
@@omi691 The point here that is people who are simply having a discussion, -- whether sharing their views or knowledge about a particular subject, _on a public forum -- are in no one way portray themselves as an authority or an expert in the video's topic at hand. I don't get why people (like the o.p.), posts comments like these.
@tsuvex2989
@tsuvex2989 5 жыл бұрын
People sympathize with someone they find agreeable. People on your good side tends away with more. Is what I learned Thank you
@kennethirgendwas4616
@kennethirgendwas4616 6 жыл бұрын
A debate isn't a fight at all, but many people, even politicians (i've seen some debates between politicians in my country) seem to see it that way. For two arguments to conflict each other there has to be one definitive truth and if you are interested in the truth you are gonna help each other find that truth by sharing your knowledge. If you are not interested in the truth and just want to 'share' your beliefs you'll get defensive and stubborn
@ruskinpeter3396
@ruskinpeter3396 3 жыл бұрын
kzbin.info/www/bejne/fnqWfWSXpZiHn5o
@eoghan.5003
@eoghan.5003 3 жыл бұрын
It depends on the purpose of the debate. In a jury room you are trying to convince your interlocutors to change their minds. In a candidates debate you are not trying to change your opponent's mind and have them go "you're right, everyone should vote for you". Instead you are trying to convince the audience. This also occurs in parts of 12 angry men, for example when juror 8 makes juror 3 look bad in front of the other jurors who aren't involved at that particular moment. These two call for very different strategies.
@adlanti-definitionleague8659
@adlanti-definitionleague8659 5 жыл бұрын
I watched this for a film class in college. You might not be surprised to hear that seemingly none of my class mates learned anything.
@Nobody-pv9jt
@Nobody-pv9jt 5 жыл бұрын
you could have changed their mind. missed opportunity
@s.k.8263
@s.k.8263 5 жыл бұрын
@@Nobody-pv9jt Actually, it is only them who can change their minds. Probably. Possibly.
@Nobody-pv9jt
@Nobody-pv9jt 5 жыл бұрын
@@s.k.8263 you're right. probably
@ssheeessh
@ssheeessh 5 жыл бұрын
It's a shame considering the relevance between 12 Angry Men's narrative and what is going on currently in the United States. So many differences are failing to be resolved simply because both sides involved fail to empathize and debate, rather than argue.
@coiledsteel8344
@coiledsteel8344 5 жыл бұрын
@@ssheeessh Best post here man! Great comments and analysis!
@donjon8328
@donjon8328 Жыл бұрын
What surprised me the most was which juror I disliked the most. It wasn’t the one who had polarising views on underclass people or the one who’s agenda was heavily obstructed by his own personal life. It was the one that didn’t care. There was a bit in there where he was called out for it and it was my favourite part of the film. It showed that regardless if your opinion is right or wrong, in a case where someone’s life is in jeopardy you must have one
@georgehiggins1320
@georgehiggins1320 4 жыл бұрын
I love how juror #3 screams at the exact same time John Coltranes solo starts at 7:44 😂
@bazalbaz
@bazalbaz 6 жыл бұрын
Great great video essay. This deserves more attention, as does the movie in today's age! Pride in our own stance and wanting to be a winner gets in the way. Making ourselves vulnerable opens other people up. Side note, great editing. Loved the moment at 7:44 when you show how #3 forced himself to contest, and as you turn up Giant Steps with Coltrane's chops going at full, #3 explodes. Subbed.
@Mr.Ford3350
@Mr.Ford3350 3 жыл бұрын
The short version is "They have to arrive at the conclusion themselves, but you can gently guide them there. They have to think they did it on their own, though."
@jamesdrynan
@jamesdrynan 10 ай бұрын
This is a perfect film. Brilliant screenplay, superb actors, splendid directing, excellent lighting and camerawork with a memorable music track as the cherry on top. A classic!
@outfield243
@outfield243 6 жыл бұрын
This video honestly just helped me a lot. I’ve been arguing with my ex for months trying to save the relationship and get back together but this video right here just helped me realize I can’t change her mind. Thanks a lot I really needed this. Update: she broke up with me a couple days ago. I figured it would happen I just wish I knew why she stopped loving me.
@dcj991
@dcj991 6 жыл бұрын
I'm proud of you vro
@marshallsamford3240
@marshallsamford3240 6 жыл бұрын
Do what you did in the beginning of the relationship and there will be no end.
@outfield243
@outfield243 6 жыл бұрын
Marshall Samford I wish it were that easy
@sambaker734
@sambaker734 6 жыл бұрын
I feel you man
@jubaugga
@jubaugga 6 жыл бұрын
Marshall Samford; That doesn’t really work out because there is a high chance of burnout. People do change and will not enjoy the same things
@GEORGETHOMAS2001
@GEORGETHOMAS2001 6 жыл бұрын
12 Angry Men is a perfectly crafted movie, and this video is similar...I'm just trying to say this video is good
@UnbreakableRukawa
@UnbreakableRukawa 6 жыл бұрын
Maybe for its time, but just from the clips shown, the characters feel very one-dimensional. #3 is just an amalgamation of that angry person everyone knows - always fighting verbally but never convincing anyone. While the main character just goes around planting doubt on a topic that almost ALWAYS leads to a not-guilty verdict IRL. (No one wants the responsibility of putting people to death if there is even a slightest doubt) The movie's big point is to mislead the audience that its 11-1 and is a David vs Goliath tale but it is very much the opposite IRL, the accused must have done a crime beyond redemption and even then it doesn't always end up successful on the first attempt - because "i just don't want blood on my hands" mentality.
@Khepriem
@Khepriem 6 жыл бұрын
@@UnbreakableRukawa You clearly live in a more moral area than I do! Where I live, people would brag about being able to put a murderer in prison. Also, Does a movie have to be perfectly realistic to be a masterpiece? Art is much more than simply realism, and some of the best stories use characters as vessels for particular perspectives on philosophy or even as incarnations for certain emotions or States of mind. From Shakespeare (a LOT of Shakespeare) to inside out, this is a way in which film makers have been expressing their view on reality using a format that most audiences enjoy. 12 Angry Men is just about the best form of that you can get. No fat to trim, no unnecessary backstory, no pointless over characterization that only goes to muddle the overarching plot, just... well... 12 Angry Men!
@UnbreakableRukawa
@UnbreakableRukawa 6 жыл бұрын
@Zephyrus Auron its just statistically averages of the american jury and their reasoning to why there are so few executions despite having so many convicted criminals. Murder is committed often in emotional rage, which if you have to sit on jury and listen to every perspective, will make it hard to kill because we are all capable of emotional rage. Personally, I myself come from a place without a jury system so I am pretty much on the other side of the camp, but i did have to write a paper on it. Art is important but I don't believe in putting art on a pedestal. There are many masterpieces of different times, and each reflect the sentiment of its time and importance. What art is - is culture. They teach a younger generation their backstory to their identity - which everyone seeks in their formative years. That's why Shakespeare is still alive, it is required reading for many countries when you are young. Just like Charlotte's web and Animal farm. All have political agenda for why they were selected over other stories regardless of the artist's original intent, and that is what becomes education - which both unites us and enlightens us but dyes most of us in a specific mindset before we are old enough for cognitive thought. That's why religious education start young, before you understand your world and political studies target late teens to early 20s, when you are seeking your identity/purpose. Art at the end of the day requires both skill and more importantly, heavy financial+influential support to be constantly reinforced and immortalized - which for Shakespeare's time was Queen Elizabeth I. Does 12 Angry men check off the skill category for me? It makes a point and did teach some interesting values for its time, but they are pretty common traits now. The angry man that people ignore is a common troupe. Which is my biggest critic with film. Replace the poor antagonist with anyone mild competent in that scenario and it would be probably in reverse. The negotiation is also weak by today's standard and can be negated by even a minor character who uses "expressed uncertainty" but against the protagonist. Your story's hero is only as strong as its antagonist, that's why the dark knight is considered a modern classic today and has spawn endless copycats with bigger budgets that failed to emulate its essence, while giving Nolan the golden "i can do what the fuck i want" ticket to creative movie production. (hint: no more cartoon heroes for him) 12 Angry men has a terrible antagonist and tries to hide it by making the illusion of 11v1. Its lesson is good but fleshed out as realistically as it has been done today. Is it an ageless masterpiece? Well no, it is too specific in it's purpose to be ageless, but it works as a casestudy of both history and a few specific negotiation ideas.
@Khepriem
@Khepriem 6 жыл бұрын
@@UnbreakableRukawa Well obviously I disagree with most of that, and I'm not sure why you went political... But 90% of what I already wrote works as a counter to that. I mostly just think you don't know a lot about art in general, so you've put it all in one box, so I'm not going to argue that point. I do think that your main problem with the story, that countless others have since ripped it off or have been inspired by it and so it's not original, is kinda stupid. No offense. Literally every masterful art piece will be ruthlessly copied, that's kinda how you know it's a success. Calling it a cliche and throwing it away for that is weird, but whatever.
@GEORGETHOMAS2001
@GEORGETHOMAS2001 6 жыл бұрын
@@UnbreakableRukawa You should watch the entire movie and get back to movie
@paulb8030
@paulb8030 6 жыл бұрын
This video is quality and so is the information within. Thank you for taking the time to make it.
@furiousmat
@furiousmat Жыл бұрын
Very good points there. Echoes a lot of the things I've learned over time on this: 1- Before telling someone everything you think they got wrong, first start by telling them what you think they got right. 2- Refrain from any kind of show of exasperation or condescention. If anything in your demeanor suggests that you feel superior to the other person, the discussion will turn into a battle of ego. The person will never concede because they cannot concede without feeling humiliated. 3- As a corollary to point 2, remaining respectful will also preserve your own open-mindedness: if you've talked down to someone who was disagreeing with you, you put yourself in this same defensive position. 4- Admit when you're wrong about details of the case. Reconsider your position and assess whether this one element changes your final conclusion. If it doesn't, explain why you remain unconvinced. Don't brush it off. People need to understand the landscape of your opposition. If they feel like you're going "whatever" every time something about your argument proves incorrect, they'll assume you're closed to changing and they will be too. It's all a matter of perception. People change their mind only when they have space to do so. We are often, maybe unconsciously, more worried about protecting our ego than about being right. If someone has ignored the points above and painted themselves into a corner, where you see that conceding would exact too high a cost on them, you need to realize that fact and find a way to give them an out in some way. A way for them to agree with you while saving face.
@Trentsum
@Trentsum 5 жыл бұрын
We had to watch the more recent color version in high school but after I graduated I watched this old black & white version and liked it way more.
@Boulder7685
@Boulder7685 6 жыл бұрын
Saw this movie in my 8th grade Civics class. Quickly became one of the hypest movies I’d ever seen, and I actually love it. And I refuse to watch black and white movies still. Best movie I was ever forced to watch.
@Paelorian
@Paelorian 6 жыл бұрын
You're denying yourself many other great experiences. Films were commonly produced in black and white until the 1970s. Many of the greatest films of all time are black and white. Try watching Citizen Kane, City Lights, King Kong, Sunrise: A Song of Two Humans, Harakiri, Seven Samurai, etc. Some excellent modern films have even been made in black and white on purpose, like Ed Wood and The Artist, and they wouldn't be better in color. Don't choose to be close-minded or you will stay ignorant.
@antimonycup7066
@antimonycup7066 6 жыл бұрын
Boulder7685 By that token you're probably also averse to watch foreign flicks. Nevertheless I'm gonna suggest one to you, of comparable quality to 12 Angry Men in my opinion: Ugly, Dirty And Bad. An Italian film from the 70s.
@Boulder7685
@Boulder7685 6 жыл бұрын
To be fair, I’m not big on most movies. Will frequently choose to work on my gaming backlog instead. However, should I find myself particularly interested at any given time, I’m putting all those recommendations on a list for later.
@antimonycup7066
@antimonycup7066 6 жыл бұрын
@@Boulder7685 Cool bro, and I get it. I game way more than watch movies. To entice you though, I'll give you a small spoiler that might motivate you a little extra reason to see Ugly, Dirty And Bad (Bruti, Sporchi e Cattivi, by Ettore Scola 1976). So this family, living in a total slum, decides to off the padre de familia, the father, by poisoning his spaghetti, and as soon as he notices something's off, he's eaten something bad, he jumps on his bicycle, manages to reach the shoreline and with his last efforts, pumps salt water into his stomach with his little bicycle air pump! A hilarious and gruesome scene, and utterly brilliant. Ok, that's it. No pressure, lol.
@daneballard6175
@daneballard6175 5 жыл бұрын
Boulder7685 who was your civics teacher?
@MudakTheMultiplier
@MudakTheMultiplier 6 жыл бұрын
This is the kind of content that I was hoping you would release after your announcement video. Part of why I subbed to you originally was to see new and better ways to argue with people. I often find myself in a #3 situation, and I never really understood why I was so bad at it. I have facts, figures, proof, and the gumption to say it, why would there be any disagreement? Obviously that hasn't really worked out for me in the past, but I've never really known specifics about what to do to change it, or even really had my problems explained to me. Videos like this really help me take a step back and look at my situation with a much more critical eye, thank you.
@beayn
@beayn 6 жыл бұрын
I'm a mix of the two. I often agree with the opposition because I know it's important to sound rational, but I also straight up disagree and feel the need to confront every opposing point. The biggest thing for me from this vid is that your opponent has to believe your mind can be changed before they can change their own.
@gben82
@gben82 6 жыл бұрын
Mudak The Multiplier yes. I also notice that most people dehumanize their opponent (a type of ad hominem) and if you’re that misanthropic towards your opponent in your language then it puts your whole position into question, in my opinion. A little empathy goes a long way too
@WuWeiAllDay
@WuWeiAllDay 2 жыл бұрын
Your series on 12 Angry Men is one of my favorites on KZbin period. I miss you
@Ari--d
@Ari--d 3 жыл бұрын
Every time i come back to your channel it is like a warm blanket. Your smooth narration and intro jazz reminds me of simpler times. Please come back.
@enderben2805
@enderben2805 2 жыл бұрын
This series of videos changed me as a person a few years back
@enderben2805
@enderben2805 2 жыл бұрын
I can't be not greatful
@enderben2805
@enderben2805 2 жыл бұрын
I loled the film, and had a lot of moments with a close friend of mine over this film
@enderben2805
@enderben2805 2 жыл бұрын
I took away the idea of not building a clash in a dialogue, if I say they're wrong, they'll just think of a way to prove themselve right just more His passive unsure, open minded position is really what I remembered to try through the my life since, even if with time I began to forget the picture of a jury film in my head, I still abstractly remembered the idea floating around in my head, as an unobvious strategy in a debatte
@enderben2805
@enderben2805 2 жыл бұрын
I love this series, more people should see this
@forrysc
@forrysc 6 жыл бұрын
This movie has been one of my favorite movies over the last 60 years. It's brilliant. Great topic.
@firebembum4751
@firebembum4751 6 жыл бұрын
Hi CA, I've been waiting for you to give an opinion about this! And thank you for your last video, introspection is important when it's just you making videos
@chuck2469
@chuck2469 6 жыл бұрын
8=======D ---------
@chuck2469
@chuck2469 6 жыл бұрын
@CreeperManCreeps mostly
@natefreedman2972
@natefreedman2972 6 жыл бұрын
I liked the giant steps in the background
@dcj991
@dcj991 6 жыл бұрын
A man of culture
@kyyngslyme2807
@kyyngslyme2807 6 жыл бұрын
I feel like Giant Steps is too energetic. Maybe Take Five by Dave Brubeck?
@awsome4564
@awsome4564 6 жыл бұрын
That one vox video
@natefreedman2972
@natefreedman2972 6 жыл бұрын
DCJ lol
@benjaminmarks8765
@benjaminmarks8765 5 жыл бұрын
@@kyyngslyme2807 or nah 11/4
@MajkelKerman
@MajkelKerman 6 жыл бұрын
I've subbed to you around 4 months ago and I respected your ability to not only logic your way through others words but explain both your and their point in a comprehensive way. When you made the "Dear Subscribers" video a month ago I didn't really know what kind of videos you were aiming for, as I had little to no comparison and I liked your videos anyways. But now I know what you meant and I must say that the new content is even better than I expected! Wow.
@raginbakin1430
@raginbakin1430 5 жыл бұрын
I gotta say: your music selection for this video was a giant step in the right direction
@marcelklimczak4841
@marcelklimczak4841 2 жыл бұрын
Well, to be honest, it was not on "how to win them over to your way of thinking", it was on how to convince others to THINK and RATIONALLY ANALYSE in the situation, when someone's life is at stake. It was also sooo relieving to see the free world where rationality won, without any gender, racial, personal, emotional ("feelings"!) arguments being raised! Thank you very much for a great material! You make many people THINK! :)
@nstix2009xitsn
@nstix2009xitsn Жыл бұрын
@marcelklimczak4841 10 months ago (edited) "Well, to be honest, it was not on 'how to win them over to your way of thinking,' it was on how to convince others to THINK and RATIONALLY ANALYSE in the situation, when someone's life is at stake." Garbage. It was on how to deceive people into submitting to your own evil position, in order to aid and abet murderers "of color."
@Minx5892
@Minx5892 11 ай бұрын
Well, not really. One of the reasons #8 gives for voting "not guilty" is his sympathy for the boy, which is more emotional than rational. Rationally speaking, the boy was more guilty than not. But #8 made a convincing argument that one should not assume that all the evidence is accurate and one should always question themselves before coming to conclusions, which can be affected by personal prejudices. If anything, #8's moral feelings towards the case and the gravity of it were the start. Then he used rationality to explain his reasoning. Morals and feelings will always be there, but they should not be the whole basis for your thinking or argument.
@fetacheese2227
@fetacheese2227 6 жыл бұрын
In conclusion, Be seen as open minded and Don’t have your pride or stubbornness get to you or It will make you be seen as a bad guy. Because even if you are logically correct in the argument, the way you act will convince people the most. I learned this the hard way. Feel free to Correct me if I’m wrong ;)
@benjoleo
@benjoleo 6 жыл бұрын
Feta cheese Although it might not help you win a debate, in general it will also be useful to actually BE open minded instead of just being seen as open minded. None of us will always be right
@MrMultiPat
@MrMultiPat 6 жыл бұрын
It's an old favorite movie of mine. Such a classic.
@jasper8961
@jasper8961 6 жыл бұрын
I can never get bored by this film
@siddsen95
@siddsen95 5 жыл бұрын
Argumentation has no place for emotion. Except when you are wrong. Exceptional critical analysis of an exceptional piece of cinema. Thank you.
@mr.rpg-gamer3906
@mr.rpg-gamer3906 5 жыл бұрын
I started this video (thanks youtube recommended) and from the get-go, I thought I would like this movie. So I stopped the video, watched the movie and now came back! Thank you for this explanation, which was great, but also for introducing me to a great movie I might have otherwise not seen :)
@Ladondorf
@Ladondorf 6 жыл бұрын
I'll keep this in mind if I ever confront Steven Crowder.
@nikosorf4250
@nikosorf4250 6 жыл бұрын
lol, his mind is unchangeable
@blindeagleace3629
@blindeagleace3629 6 жыл бұрын
Ladondorf I don’t think he’s very interested in having his mind changed.
@Khepriem
@Khepriem 6 жыл бұрын
Except the second you allow him any common ground he'll take it and act as if your entire argument is renounced. I agree with him on many fronts, but his "Change my mind" segments are little more than cheap fun. I've actually always wanted CA to make a video on his argument style!
@andrejosue98
@andrejosue98 6 жыл бұрын
@K4nler Well no one had ever given him reasons to change his mind, there are people that give good opinion, but they sometimes get so offensive that every dialogue gets lost and it turns into fallacies and not "change my mind". People want to prove him wrong, when they can't... since it is a subjetive point of view. Lets take "socialism is evil" he had a guy talk to him. And he gave excellent points. But instead of changing his mind, he started attacking capitalism and the people that support capitalism. Socialism can still be evil even if capitalism is evil. In the end he failed to change his mind... because he was not even trying to do so. He even stated that he was winning the debate .-. When it is not even a debate
@therambler3713
@therambler3713 6 жыл бұрын
@@KhepriemI think he gives people allot rope , even the ones insulting him to his face. But when someone says something crazy like 8-9 months old abortions are ok, what do you expect the response to be?.
@braedinkolar8357
@braedinkolar8357 3 жыл бұрын
i had to analyse 12 angry men a couple years ago in year 10 as an assessment at school. it was actually extremely thought provoking...
@looselytelling
@looselytelling 9 ай бұрын
I know this series is quite old but I gotta say, this is my favourite analysis of anything ever.
@truth.speaker
@truth.speaker 3 жыл бұрын
I literally was just praying about if I should speak this way, just earlier today. It feels like your video is an answer to a prayer 🙂🙏
@ademparik
@ademparik 6 жыл бұрын
Well done video. Glad the change from character assassination to argument analyze. You stuck to your promise from the last video. Thank you
@Advent3546
@Advent3546 6 жыл бұрын
A video on 12 Angry Men being exactly 12 minutes long? Clever.
@firebender1174
@firebender1174 6 жыл бұрын
12 minutes ago
@darksummoner9503
@darksummoner9503 6 жыл бұрын
11:59.
@amincade7791
@amincade7791 5 жыл бұрын
And no one is angry
@trinityp1214
@trinityp1214 6 жыл бұрын
Man I love this movie ^_^ That was a very well-made point. Awesome video!
@AdamOwenBrowning
@AdamOwenBrowning 5 жыл бұрын
You just made me watch this film and it was an incredible display of social dynamics. I do not watch films often and this is the first black-and-white film I ever sat through. Thank you for this.
@skydickey5518
@skydickey5518 Жыл бұрын
This youtube series changed my life and made me a better man more capable of listening and understanding
@rayflyers
@rayflyers 6 жыл бұрын
Counter Arguments is BACK, baby!!
@leilanibetts27
@leilanibetts27 5 жыл бұрын
I love this video! I've watched it over and over again.❤️ 12 Angry Men is one of my all-time favorite movies. It really made me think.
@itsmealex8959
@itsmealex8959 6 жыл бұрын
*Steven Crowder has left the chat*
@stickmandomination9730
@stickmandomination9730 6 жыл бұрын
Wait, are you saying Crowder isn't the master of changing peoples minds through open minded dialogue?
@gafeleon9032
@gafeleon9032 6 жыл бұрын
@@stickmandomination9730 yes, yes he is
@the500mphtortoise
@the500mphtortoise 6 жыл бұрын
Steven- using the word autistic hirts my feelings- crowder
@the500mphtortoise
@the500mphtortoise 6 жыл бұрын
@Havla Fitta so? He constantly talks about not getting offended by offhand remarks like that when it comes to rape etc (which i agree with). Came across as massively hypocritical.
@mongol62
@mongol62 6 жыл бұрын
It's impossible to change the mind of Steven Crowder. Change my mind.
@ReMeDy_TV
@ReMeDy_TV Жыл бұрын
@ 1:30 Thinking on it, while juror #3 might seem to be the antagonist at first glance, the guilty party advocates were truly defeated when the guy with glasses admits defeat. He was the ultimate roadblock. That guy provided good reasoning why he felt passionately about the guilty verdict. By contrast, juror #3 just yelled incessantly to a quiet room before collapsing in tears.
@ArtekGeneral
@ArtekGeneral 3 жыл бұрын
To this day this channel's greatest work.
@opsoc777
@opsoc777 6 жыл бұрын
That moment you can't watch counter arguements new video because there might be spoilers for a movie you want to watch... Moral: -12 Patience: -5 Will to live: still nonexistent
@chuck2469
@chuck2469 6 жыл бұрын
I disliked this comment
@CipherSerpico
@CipherSerpico 6 жыл бұрын
OP's OC lmao same here.
@WileyBoxx
@WileyBoxx 6 жыл бұрын
do you even speak english
@opsoc777
@opsoc777 6 жыл бұрын
@@WileyBoxx いいえ
@opsoc777
@opsoc777 6 жыл бұрын
​@@chuck2469 Now I'm double sad.
@Andre-uu5xv
@Andre-uu5xv 5 жыл бұрын
I honestly have to thank you for introducing me to this movie. I mean HOLY SHIT is it good! The cinematography, the acting, the story! *Mastapeece*
@caesar1700
@caesar1700 6 жыл бұрын
12 Angry Men is a great film but let's not forget the fellow behind it all, Sidney Lumet. He directed movies like Network, Dog Day Afternoon, Murder on the Orient Express and Serpico; why do we never talk about him?!
@densealloy
@densealloy 6 жыл бұрын
I was going to say the same. Glad I read the comments first. Dog day afternoon and this are such great films. Lumet was a master and actors loved him as well.
@briankelly1240
@briankelly1240 3 жыл бұрын
12 Angry Men has been a gem of a film I have enjoyed for decades; so glad to see it getting attention it deserves!
@theflev-matic4892
@theflev-matic4892 3 жыл бұрын
Giant Steps AND a discussion of 12 Angry Men? Oh YES!
@cauesilva679
@cauesilva679 3 жыл бұрын
This is still one of the most beautifully well crafted videos on this whole platform. 👍
@fastestabdullahxxx
@fastestabdullahxxx 5 жыл бұрын
Love Coltrane playing in the background
@lambchopsmtl
@lambchopsmtl 5 жыл бұрын
To win this argument, you might have to take some giant steps.
@Jhincks
@Jhincks 5 жыл бұрын
Vegechops *finger guns*
@WillTheBassPlayer
@WillTheBassPlayer 4 жыл бұрын
2020: Living in a world where everyone is a #3.
@maplekandayo
@maplekandayo 5 жыл бұрын
love the giant steps in the background. it didn't go unnoticed
@Komeii
@Komeii 3 жыл бұрын
One off my hobbies of arguing/debating with people on the internet has just been improved.
@TheShocker345
@TheShocker345 6 жыл бұрын
CA - I wanted to ask - do you have any recommendations on interesting books to read or things to watch about argumentation or persuasion? After watching the movie and then your video I'm really interested in looking into argumentation and persuasion techniques, methods, etc a bit further than your channel, but I'm not sure where to start. If you have any recommendations I'd love to know! By the way, as a long time fan, I really think you should look into making more videos analyzing debates/arguments between people and characters because I feel it's where your best content comes from.
@Uranek01
@Uranek01 6 жыл бұрын
Shocker345 great question
@tomkent4656
@tomkent4656 5 жыл бұрын
Surely this should be titled "How to Change Somebody Else's Mind".
@Woodside235
@Woodside235 4 жыл бұрын
It's the biggest irony that it's almost impossible to change another's mind if you yourself are unable to have your mind changed.
@dheerajhazarika1836
@dheerajhazarika1836 4 жыл бұрын
This is a classic by a master. This is master class on Human Psychology. Hats off to the actors and above all the great Sidney Lumet (whom academy have ignored every time - 12 Angry Men, Serpico, Dog Day Afternoon, Network. Respect!
@paulyzish
@paulyzish 3 жыл бұрын
Enjoyed the video. Yay for the "soft-sell"! I played juror #2 on stage a few years back. Wonderful show:)
@martinhorvath4117
@martinhorvath4117 5 жыл бұрын
New drinking game idea: Take a shot everytime he said guilty.
@CybeargPlays
@CybeargPlays 6 жыл бұрын
I'll definitely need to watch this film, and you have a very interesting idea, here. But I'd like to see some real world demonstrations of this technique working. It's easy enough to propose passive disagreement and uncertainty as means of persuasion in a work of fiction, but is there some reason to think it's really so effective in practice?
@luminomancer5992
@luminomancer5992 6 жыл бұрын
Probably the most relevant real life comparision to these points I can find is Jordan petersons stuff, still being completley neutral is rather impossible but the other points stand up in the arguments I've seen him in
@abicus3502
@abicus3502 6 жыл бұрын
There is a problem with this. Often reality is not as we think it is, and stuff that works in fiction does not necessary work in reality. There is even a term "It looks good on paper". So, where is the proof that this strategy would work in real life just like in the movie?
@blackearl7891
@blackearl7891 6 жыл бұрын
Try it out.
@abicus3502
@abicus3502 6 жыл бұрын
@@blackearl7891 I'm sorry, but this is not a proof. Proof must be a burden of the accuser. Otherwise I could tell "Somewhere in the universe unicorns exist, prove me wrong!", and you would not, because it would be impossible to prove me wrong.
@blackearl7891
@blackearl7891 6 жыл бұрын
@@abicus3502 well yeah if you take it too its absurd value the argument loses any sort of meaning. However, one shouldn't led one's own adamant view in the way of actual conversation. As long as its maintained with the realm of possibilities concessions can be made. However, this technique becomes also difficult because of our own biases and idealism.
@abicus3502
@abicus3502 6 жыл бұрын
@@blackearl7891 I don't see how this is connected to what I wrote. Sorry, don't wanna blame you, but...
@blackearl7891
@blackearl7891 6 жыл бұрын
@@abicus3502 I am arguing that one shouldn't allow for absurdist arguments, and try and keep it grounded. Also in case someone does bring up unicorns you could argue for a mistaken perception of that animal having a cutaneous horn which is why they may have mistaken it for a mythical unicorn. It's a possibility (aside from them being crazy, or gullible) and it causes them to doubt its claim.
@zak686
@zak686 5 жыл бұрын
I will never stop recommending this video/series by you!
@paineoftheworld
@paineoftheworld 6 жыл бұрын
Beautiful. A simple point about minds but a complex argument for the validity of cinema as art, science and philosophy.
@braindead5283
@braindead5283 6 жыл бұрын
refreshed the page, and the video went from 11 views to 118
@chuck2469
@chuck2469 6 жыл бұрын
Cool
@Stanton_High
@Stanton_High 6 жыл бұрын
Counter arguments OBVIOUSLY has never met my girlfriend. 😂
@saraha6571
@saraha6571 4 жыл бұрын
😂😂
@andre2k518
@andre2k518 6 жыл бұрын
Great start into 2019!
@ican4ever
@ican4ever 3 жыл бұрын
One of my favorite films of all time.
@PkmariO64
@PkmariO64 5 жыл бұрын
I have this movie on VHS and I’ve watched it several times now. It’s really entertaining the whole way through.
@AzusaNym
@AzusaNym 6 жыл бұрын
Will you ever make a Discord server for your KZbin community?
@AzusaNym
@AzusaNym 6 жыл бұрын
It would be nice to have, I could only imagine the type of cool people I will meet on a 'Counter Arguements' Discord.
@Khepriem
@Khepriem 6 жыл бұрын
Yeah but sooooo muuuuch arguing would ensue!
@PressA2Die
@PressA2Die 6 жыл бұрын
Knowing this community it would never get past the: -We should have a discord -I disagree because...
@AzusaNym
@AzusaNym 6 жыл бұрын
+Zephyrus Auron Well no, his fanbase is really mature I would presume, just like Lemmino's, and Lemmino has some mature people on his Discord server and they debate and what not because they are mature.
@SheevPalpatine66420
@SheevPalpatine66420 6 жыл бұрын
If you have not yet i would love too see your argument for morality whether it be subjective or objective and to see if there are any middle grounds. Such as murder being objectively wrong but killing can be moral such as defense of one's life.
@DashSlashDash
@DashSlashDash 6 жыл бұрын
Thing is, it would have to be someone's particular argument. There are many arguments for objective morality (which I would consider the positive claim out of the two), and the counter argument would entirely depend on which one to address. Imagine Sam Harris and William Lane Craig's different arguments for objective morality, and how you probably can't make a counter argument to both at the same time without having to actively argue for subjective morality.
@SheevPalpatine66420
@SheevPalpatine66420 6 жыл бұрын
@@DashSlashDash i completely understand that i just want to see how he would argue or evaluate these arguments with that topic
@Khepriem
@Khepriem 6 жыл бұрын
@@DashSlashDash Exactly what I was thinking lol. Plus the topic of objective morality is almost without exception linked to the existence of a higher power... And CA knows that's one place he should probably be careful around. There are a lotta people who can be great at arguing and critical thinking but somehow have never faced that one particular delusion and will snap if you bring it up!
@SiMeGamer
@SiMeGamer 6 жыл бұрын
@@SheevPalpatine66420 there is a case that is based on pure logic for objective morality. But it's very unpopular and dismissed because of the person associated with those ideas. I'm talking about Objectivism and Ayn Rand. I can make an objective argument on why God or a parallel universe cannot exist for example, but most people are close minded and think I'm just full of myself
@SheevPalpatine66420
@SheevPalpatine66420 6 жыл бұрын
@@SiMeGamer make the case then. Also you just missed his point. The point of argumentation is start out saying you're not sure about your position and are willing to question it. Yet you give off a hint of trying to show superiority about your view of objectivism.
@thejosh0000001
@thejosh0000001 6 жыл бұрын
Do you have any sources for your points in this video. While what you are saying is how argument should work and how reasonable people would like it to work, I've yet to see this born out in reality. In debate, the appearance of confidence matters more than being earnest
@ghans2305
@ghans2305 5 жыл бұрын
I'm not a psychology buff or anything like, but I feel like if somebody confidently states a point that is outright false and is called out on it they will be more reluctant to add more points to the argument, which would be a loss for both sides since there wouldn't be a healthy back and forth. Confidence can be useful, sure, but I don't think the entirety of a debate or argument should be the two sides butting heads at each other with no real problem solving or compromise.
@thejosh0000001
@thejosh0000001 5 жыл бұрын
@@ghans2305 Again, that's how we would like to think it works, but look at literally any public speaker or policy maker in the recent history. Calling people out on outright lying doesnt slow them down at all. They cry fake news and move on. No one cares about facts anymore, and the more I learn the more I would be hard pressed to find a period of time where anyone did care about facts. Persuasion is about narrative. Tell people a story that can fit their world view and they buy your argument. Tell someone a better story that fits more of their world view, theyll "change their mind."
@hoodiesticks
@hoodiesticks 6 жыл бұрын
It's been a long time since I've found myself wishing I could like a video twice, but this video deserves more than a single paltry like.
@TechnicalHotDog
@TechnicalHotDog 6 жыл бұрын
Just watched 12 Angry Men again yesterday. One of the best movies ever made.
@derekkraje3985
@derekkraje3985 6 жыл бұрын
Steven Crowder sponsored this video.
@YostPeter
@YostPeter 6 жыл бұрын
What does _that_ mean?
@YostPeter
@YostPeter 6 жыл бұрын
@@poptropicadude3 I'm an idiot and didn't catch the joke.
@noahogrady5274
@noahogrady5274 6 жыл бұрын
Peter Yost this basically sums up Steven Crowders change my mind videos. He always starts with saying he wants people to change his mind
@briansinger5258
@briansinger5258 6 жыл бұрын
This is an objectively good joke. Crowder can go fuck himself.
@briansinger5258
@briansinger5258 6 жыл бұрын
Noah O'Grady Until he gets triggered by a national socialist and adopts the tactics of the liberal snowflakes he hates so much ;)
@NavyOneKC
@NavyOneKC 5 жыл бұрын
You almost ALWAYS argue/debate for the benefit of the audience and not the adversary....
@lain2236ad
@lain2236ad 5 жыл бұрын
NavyOneKC this video is directly about changing the opponents mind and no one else
@MrRayne911
@MrRayne911 5 жыл бұрын
No, YOU almost always argue/debate for the benefit of the audience and not the adversary...
@lain2236ad
@lain2236ad 5 жыл бұрын
there isn't always an audience to benefit, 1 on 1 arguing is very common
@CrashSable
@CrashSable 6 жыл бұрын
Very interesting video. You see 12 Angry Men as an exercise in how to debate well. I see it as a condemnation of humanity as well as trial by jury. A jury made up of 12 men assumes that 12 is a sufficient sample size to get at least one reasonable person into the mix, in reality number 8 is one-in-a-million and most juries just assume everyone is guilty because "the police arrested him, so he must be guilty" - which is doubly atrocious because the police are at best lazy and at worst terrorist scum who just throw anyone they can to court to keep their numbers up. We like to think they have punishments in place to keep the police from doing their job poorly, but they really don't.
@PlagueDoc25
@PlagueDoc25 6 жыл бұрын
I Don't know how this channel does not have more subscribers. Great video as always.
@xcell8638
@xcell8638 6 жыл бұрын
The first in a series about this movie. I look forward to your further episodes.
@zardox78
@zardox78 6 жыл бұрын
You make several good points here. But you have to remember this is a work of fiction. In real life there would probably be more than one "number 3" in that room. I seriously doubt that in all of human history anything like this has ever _really_ happened in a jury room, where one juror changed the already-made-up minds of the other 11. It would be an impressive thing to see if anyone ever managed to pull something like that off... which is why somebody wrote (a play and then) a movie about that happening. But... yeah. Real humans don't work like one-dimensional characters (who are all controlled by an author's whims) do.
@brandonluck159
@brandonluck159 5 жыл бұрын
I couldn’t listen to the video because giant steps went on in the background
@ronanhiggz9364
@ronanhiggz9364 6 жыл бұрын
A video about 12 Angry Men is 12 minutes long. I see what you did there.
@Ignas_
@Ignas_ Жыл бұрын
Here I am, back again for like the 5th time. This series supplements the movie so well and is an excellent course in argumentation.
@MarekNR
@MarekNR 5 жыл бұрын
It just opened my mind. Thank you. You don't even know how grateful I am.
What To Make Debates {Episode 02}
14:00
Counter Arguments
Рет қаралды 233 М.
How 12 ANGRY MEN breaks screenwriting rules
22:57
Script Sleuth
Рет қаралды 245 М.
Cat mode and a glass of water #family #humor #fun
00:22
Kotiki_Z
Рет қаралды 42 МЛН
Каха и дочка
00:28
К-Media
Рет қаралды 3,4 МЛН
Sigma Kid Mistake #funny #sigma
00:17
CRAZY GREAPA
Рет қаралды 30 МЛН
It works #beatbox #tiktok
00:34
BeatboxJCOP
Рет қаралды 41 МЛН
30 years ago today: Kissinger on Russia & NATO expansion Dec. 5, 1994 PBS Newshour, w/ Jack Matlock
16:46
UCLA Irv and Xiaoyan Drasnin Communication Archive
Рет қаралды 241 М.
The Perfect Response to Trump and MAGA - From 1957!
12:53
Steve Shives
Рет қаралды 651 М.
12 Angry Men | The Perfect Script isn't Enough
13:26
Alex Boucher
Рет қаралды 6 М.
DoubleSpeak, How to Lie without Lying
16:15
What I've Learned
Рет қаралды 11 МЛН
Drinker's Extra Shots - 12 Angry Men
7:31
Critical Drinker After Hours
Рет қаралды 218 М.
12 Angry Men- A Lesson in Staging
7:42
The Royal Ocean Film Society
Рет қаралды 143 М.
The Rules for Rulers
19:33
CGP Grey
Рет қаралды 21 МЛН
How To Win (Almost) Every Argument
11:21
Charisma on Command
Рет қаралды 13 МЛН
Isaac Asimov talks about superstition, religion and why he teaches rationality
24:44
Cat mode and a glass of water #family #humor #fun
00:22
Kotiki_Z
Рет қаралды 42 МЛН