How to Cycle An Aquaponics System

[@MorganHornets]

You are a prime example of how wonderful KZbin can be. You are changing the lives of people all over the world. Thank you from Houston, Texas.

[@RobsAquaponics]

Am glad I could help some MH. Cheers & all the best. 👍🙂

[@ryanbowen4526]

Im new to aquaculture and am located in Houston myself, any suggestions on local retailers for IBC or hydroponics gear?

[@samsunny6483]

After doing nitrite test , for few seconds its showing around 0.5 to 1 ppm , and then the color is getting completly change to transparent

[@samsunny6483]

After couple of minutes its showing 6.8 ph color (nitrite test )

[@93eclipseguy]

I've been watching you for many years. I am restarting my old aquaponics system that got neglected due to health issues. just stopping in to get a refresher. I have also bought your aquaponics guide. Thank you for all you do and have done.

[@RobsAquaponics]

That's great to hear mate. Don't forget you can contact me through the guide if you have any questions. I check there a few times a day so I don't miss any. Cheers & hope the build goes smoothly.

[@93eclipseguy]

@RobsAquaponics to get a response that quick on a 4 year old video, shows the respect and love you have for your viewers. You're awesome.

[@RobsAquaponics]

@@93eclipseguy Was just passing through & you got lucky. 😉 I try to get through as many as I can on a Monday & Tuesday mornings. Cheers.

[@dmherzer5848]

A great video resource to help me get my aquaponics education!

[@coleweede1953]

I'm happy to see you are getting the new system up and running again instead of leaving it down for a long time

[@RobsAquaponics]

Cheers mate. 👍👍

[@upailpt]

Hi Rob, thank you so much for your kindness to share your Auqaponics knowledge here. I enjoy viewing your videos which are very informative. I have just recently purchased a used IBC Aquaponics setup and now is working to cycle it. The problem is I am not too sure if the system is ready to put the fish or not. Here is the summary: - After I bought the setup, I temporarily stopped the system so that I could clean it. I did not wash the expanded clay balls. - I put back everything then started to put some plants plus adding the Carlie Carp solution to start the cycle. - I think I put too much as the initial Ammonia reading was more than 8 ppm. - After about 11 days, the Ammonia level started to decrease to 2 ppm. However I still couldn't detect any Nitrite, while the Nitrate level was already 160 ppm. - I am now adding the Carlie Carp solution every few days to maintain the Ammonia level. Do you think the reason why I can't detect Nitrite is because the bacteria is already there since the expanded clay balls were ex working system? Is it now safe to put fish on the system? Thank you in advance.

[@RobsAquaponics]

Hi Robert & sorry for taking so long to respond to you. I dare say that you're right & the nitrite oxidising bacteria are already there & doing their job. 👍 Have you popped some fish in there yet? Sorry again for not responding when you needed it.

[@upailpt]

@@RobsAquaponics , thanks for your respond. Yes I did put the fish in my system couple weeks ago. They seem happy. Thanks again for your great channel.

[@RobsAquaponics]

@@upailpt Glad to hear all's going well mate. Cheers.

[@GrownByMe]

best aquaponics award

[@RobsAquaponics]

Thanks mate. 👍

[@mathews.prabhakaran]

Thanks Bob for the advice of a right water test kit.

[@RobsAquaponics]

No problem mate. 👍 Have a top one MP.

[@arthurhascoet]

You're an absolute legend. Starting my own little system in Melbourne and I heavily rely on your teachings. Thanks!

[@RobsAquaponics]

Glad to be of some help Arthur. What sort of fish are you thinking of running?

[@arthurhascoet]

@@RobsAquaponics I was thinking growing some silver perch given the weather down here. Any recommendations?

[@RobsAquaponics]

@@arthurhascoet Silvers would be a good start. I do know folks that will run some trout through the cooler months. Not something I've been able to have a crack at up here.

[@arthurhascoet]

@@RobsAquaponics thanks for your messages 🙏 I do have one question, my growing bed is showing signs of beads whitening. What is it? Is it something I should be concerned about?

[@RobsAquaponics]

@@arthurhascoet It's normally just mineral salts drying out on the media Arthur. Most folks will get a little form from time to time & it isn't really something to be concerned about in small amounts. 👍

[@bolivarsanchez7329]

EXCELENTES SUS VIDEOS, ESTOY MUY INTERESADO EN PODER HACER UN FILTRO BIOLOGICO, PARA UN ESTANQUE DE TILAPIOS

[@RobsAquaponics]

Tengo este video aquí que podría darte algunas ideas, kzbin.info/www/bejne/i5DYnYdtZ8eMgc0 Saludos compañero. 🍻 (Google Translate) I have this video here that might give you a few ideas, kzbin.info/www/bejne/i5DYnYdtZ8eMgc0 Cheers Mate. 🍻

[@noahkamakeeaina5454]

thanks rob you really teach me alot cant get enough

[@RobsAquaponics]

Glad I can helps some Noah. 👍 Cheers & have a top one.

[@oliviahossell1747]

This is a awesome system. Thanks for sharing with us

[@RobsAquaponics]

Glad you like it!

[@katherinestout6928]

Thanks Rob. Good explanation of something quite complicated

[@RobsAquaponics]

Thanks Katherine. 👍 am hoping it will help some newcomers out as there's really not a lot of info on YT covering cycling. Cheers & happy growing.

[@shaynemckinlay6406]

Thanks for this information on cycling the system.

[@RobsAquaponics]

Hope it helps some Shayne.👍👍 Cheers.

[@WhenJigglesAttacks]

You can jump start a system by adding worm casting to the grow beds. Works great

[@RobsAquaponics]

Have seen folks add compost tea's as well to help add in bacteria. 👍

[@MyTube4Utoo]

Such helpful videos. Thank you, Rob.

[@RobsAquaponics]

Thanks & hope they give you a few useful ideas to play with. Happy growing.

[@TimothyAmos]

Great video 👍. I've always been successful just using goldfish to start off with and plant seeds directly in the system. By the time the plants start needing nutrients beyond what the seed provides, the fish have already cycled the system.

[@RobsAquaponics]

I prefer to cycle with fish as well. Have seen a load of folks kill their first batch trying that method so thought this method might help them out. 🤔😉 Cheers Tim.

[@dcranch1538]

How many of each do you start with? And do you plant the seeds in the same depth as you would in soil or just below the dry area in the media beds? Just about to finish building my system and was about to buy 150 tilapia fry and someone said don't. No plants just cycle first. Help!!!!

[@HTownIron832]

I think I’m finally pulling the trigger on a small system to start off with. Using a lot of tips from your chop and flip to leave room for expansion. Expect a few more views on the diy videos as I try and finalize plans

[@RobsAquaponics]

Nice one Noah. Hope the build is going well. 👍

[@sumpop420]

As always, incredibly informative in an easily digestible way thank you Rob! 👍

[@RobsAquaponics]

Cheers Sumpop. Have a great one. 👍

[@twebster1948]

Hello Rob, I have been out of here for some time now; however I continue to watch your videos. thank you so much for the instruction. I will be getting back to building my system in the basement soon. Please keep the videos coming as I'm excited to follow the new setup in your back yard now that your home has been finished. We're just about to step into spring here in Colorado Springs, Co. so we will be setting up some outdoor beds as well. Thank you again

[@RobsAquaponics]

Is great to hear from you TW. 👍 Hope to be starting off some soil beds out the back this week & will post a general "garden" update this weekend if the weather holds. Not much to show but it may interest some. Have fun with the build & happy growing. 🌱

[@theSam91]

Great videos as always, I'm following the set up of your new system closely! Particularly interested to see when you start introducing fingerlings if you quarantine or salt their water for stress. All of mine are dying at the moment one by one even though my system is cycled and ph is stable. I think the first ones were a dodgy batch that were infected with something, which is now killing the new ones I bought from a different supplier.

[@RobsAquaponics]

Sorry to hear that Sam. I won't really need to quarantine the fish as they are going into a new system. I would do so if they were being added into a system that already had fish in it. I will be salting the system (with pure sea salt NOT table salt) to no more than 1kg per 1000L or one part per thousand as an insurance policy against brown blood disease/nitrite poisoning. Hope that helps some mate.

[@j.j.alexander9542]

Thanks mate for the direction to go. So informative.

[@RobsAquaponics]

Glad it's helped some JJ Cheers mate.

[@anthonycamacho3170]

I was lucky that a friend gave me some grow media from his grow beds to get my system started. A couple of gallons of his water helped too.

[@RobsAquaponics]

Nice one mate. hope the system is ticking along nicely. for you.

[@martiansonmaui1749]

Thanks Rob! A lot of valuable info int your videos. I’ll be cycling my system in June, thanks to all of your informative vlogs. Cheers!

[@RobsAquaponics]

Hope it's a hassle free cycling for you MOM. Cheers & happy growing. 🍅🥦🐟

[@clintonmerchant4821]

Trying to set up my system an these videos or helping alot

[@RobsAquaponics]

Hope the build is going well. 😁👍

[@nicolaiitchenko7610]

Another brilliant and educational video from the Back Yard Farm and Aquaponics master... Thank you for this brilliant, first steps instructional... I notice in the fish tank that your SLO is of a larger diameter than in the past...is this more efficient, more suited to the round tanks or necessary? The slo's I have built so far have all been 25mm in size and have been adequate for the IBC systems I use. Is there a recommended size for a SLO? As I add a second IBC to the system should I increase the diameter and therefore the amount of flow from the two IBC fish tanks (one containing Jade Perch the other Sleepy Cod) when I add the two more grow beds (making a total of five)? Thank you again for being the inspiration for what has become a genuine pleasure and considerable savings for my household.

[@RobsAquaponics]

Hi Frank. It's the same 2"/50mm SLO that was in it this tank previously. 👍 I found that size just handles the flow a lot better. I did have a 40mm/1½" in the older IBC system but found it didn't handle the 2000ish LPH flow rate too well. I prefer to use the 2" for flow rates over 1500lph as it isn't as easy to block up with crud & allows for a much higher flow rate. Hope that helps some mate & am glad the clips have been helpful in some way. Have a top one Frank.

[@OneMansWorld]

Wow rob that was such a well put together vid I love the info and educational things in this vid keep up the great work mate

[@RobsAquaponics]

Thanks mate. Figured I should have a cycling clip up on the channel seeing as we all need to do it when we start off a system. Have a top one Steven. 👍

[@OneMansWorld]

Rob Bob's Aquaponics & Backyard Farm you make things so easy to follow mate I can’t thank you enough for the info on your channel

[@Javinkay]

Great video appreciate you sharing

[@RobsAquaponics]

Cheers Javinkay. 👍 Have a top one.

[@bullsvitaminas7194]

Muito bom gosto muito do seu sistema, vejonto seus vídeos e estou programando para iniciar meu projeto de aquaponia.

[@RobsAquaponics]

Fico feliz que você esteja gostando dos vídeos. Espero que eles tenham lhe dado algumas idéias úteis. Tenha uma ótima semana. _Google Translate_ I'm glad you're enjoying the videos. I hope they have given you a few useful ideas. Have a great week.

[@smarthydroponics]

Another great video rob I’ve learnt so much from you cheers

[@RobsAquaponics]

Cheers Allan. 👍👍

[@Danielle33384]

It’s all very interesting, although it sounds awfully complicated. Great video

[@RobsAquaponics]

I suppose it can be. I forget how long it took me to get my noggin around it Danielle. Cheers & have a top one.

[@bensbullet]

good on ya Rob another top vid mate great to see the ponics up and running its been awhile looking forward to the many vids in the future cheers mate

[@RobsAquaponics]

Hi Ben & thanks mate. 👍 Hope to have it cycled over the next few weeks so I can get some fish in there. Have a top one mate.

[@sallyweiner4180]

Wonderful walk through!

[@RobsAquaponics]

Thanks Sally. 🙂👍 Hope all's well over the big ditch.

[@rafigrumi97]

Thank you

[@RobsAquaponics]

You're welcome Rafael. 👍

[@dallasmclennan9133]

Hi rod awesome videos you have inspired me here in melbourne to but a split flow system. Unfortunately I’m struggling to get my ammonia levels. I have been using Charlie carp 30ml at a time and haven’t seen the levels come up for over 2 weeks. I’m running 4 beds with a sump tank. I also have 2 x 1000l fish tanks connected to a settle out radial flow. It could also be due to the bell siphon not operating correctly.

[@RobsAquaponics]

Hi Dallas. I just posted a video on the weekend looking at making & troubleshooting siphon issues if that helps at all, kzbin.info/www/bejne/nqG5q6aDlJyokNE At a guess, I would say that the bacteria in the system may be converting it or the plants in the system are using it as 30ml isn't very much. You could add quite a bit more if there's no fish in the system. It may take a day or two for the readings to show up when using the CC as well I've found. Are you testing for nitrite & nitrate as well?

[@bt1vn]

As always mate another fantastic video! Keep up the top work. Its your transparency that draws me to your channel, when mistakes are made you own them and you tell your audience what happened so we can learn from it too. I love that you aren't too proud to admit when things go pear shaped, this is why i trust what you say, you don't try to cover things up. Just straight to the point, very informative no b.s, its pure quality and such an awesome thing you are doing, growing your own fresh food, educating the community, and teaching us how to actually do it and do it properly. Thank you so much for all of your hard work. Oh and you are so aussie (im born and bred in melbourne, so don't take offence to that). I haven't come across it and i apologize if you already have done one of these types of videos but how about a top 5 or top 10 common mistakes that noobs make when starting aquaponics. It's just a suggestion if you are starting to struggle with new video topics

[@RobsAquaponics]

Hi mate & thanks for the kind words. 👍 I recently did a 5 aquaponics mistakes clip that might interest you, kzbin.info/www/bejne/ppKok3avg61lhc0 Cheers bt1vn & all the best.

[@VochosGranja]

Great info rob, thank you.

[@RobsAquaponics]

Thanks VG👍👍 have a great one.

[@VochosGranja]

Thank you Rob, you too 🤙🏻

[@mmcgartland2095]

Thanks

[@RobsAquaponics]

No problem😁👍

[@dwaynefrench4199]

Thanks Rob for your update it looks great what differences have you mad to your filtration system.

[@camel0147]

dwayne french there is another video about it, check it out and support ;)

[@Shane_O.5158]

Rob put in some shadecloth and other changes, watch the other video from about 1week ago.

[@RobsAquaponics]

Posted a walk through of the system last week showing the radial flow settler & basic mesh filter if you're interested Dwayne, kzbin.info/www/bejne/ooe8n6akrsxrndk Cheers mate & happy growing.

[@o.o1163]

Thank you so much for all this information you're awesome 🤗😊

[@RobsAquaponics]

Happy to help Lisa. 👍👍

[@andybush368]

Great vid as always 😀

[@RobsAquaponics]

Thanks Mr Andy. 👍 Cheers mate & have a top one.

[@dxbaqualogs]

Wonderfull video rob😊 My system is cycled but I am not able to bring my pH down, currently pH is at 7.6😑any suggestions on how to bring down pH

[@RobsAquaponics]

I would probably leave it there as the nitrification process will strip alkalinity from the water resulting in a lower pH. It won't happen straight away but once it does you will need to add buffers to help keep the pH stable. Hope that helps some mate.

[@dxbaqualogs]

@@RobsAquaponics Thanks mate🙂 now my pH is down to 7.3

[@glennjones3186]

G’day Rob, Thanks so much for your videos, you are giving us a wealth of information and I am learning heaps. My wife and I have a property in Thailand where we have a dam stocked with catfish, perch etc. I want to start aquaponics there and I want to know if using the water from the dam is advisable/preferable to kick things off. Hope you can help. Cheers Glenn

[@RobsAquaponics]

Hi Glenn. I can't see why you couldn't start a system using that water as long as it's not polluted in any way. 👍 You'll probably find it will take a while for the water to clear up. I'd still cycle it before adding the fish. Are you going to be adding fish from the pond into it?

[@glennjones3186]

Rob Bob's Aquaponics & Backyard Farm , Hi Rob, thanks for getting back to me. The Aquaponics will start off with red claws but hopefully we can go to fish in the future. The dam is a good size but not yet aerated (next trip) and it isn’t polluted.

[@mauricecoutanceau2297]

Thanks Rob for your amazing videos. If I have a stable system, everything is hoary, if I want to add a grow bed or twonto my existing two grow beds, would I need to wait until the fish are harvested and then start the cycling process again?

[@RobsAquaponics]

Sorry I missed this mate. You just add on new beds as needed & the bacteria will set up colonies as their numbers grow. 👍

[@周宏宏-j7e]

Hi Rob, do you happen to have a video that telling us when should the grow bed be replaced? Or have you tried deep-water raft way to breed the plants?

[@RobsAquaponics]

If you include a solids settler/filter in the design & don't allow the beds to be come choked out with solids you should get a number of years of growing before they need to be cleaned 周宏宏. The only time I've cleaned them out is when the solids collected around the roots of a plant & caused nitrite spikes in the system. I haven't used DWC as of yet but will be including some in the larger system I plan to build before next season. Hope that helps some.

[@周宏宏-j7e]

@@RobsAquaponics Sure, it helps a lot, its great to hv ur reply!And I look forward to seeing ur new videos!😁👍🙌

[@nigelkuipers8526]

G'day Rob, I have just put together my first chop and flip aquaponics system and just put new clay pebbles in. I was wondering- I have a fish pond in my front yard with regular pebbles in it already- It has a few large gold fish in it that have been in there for a couple of years. Would it be alright if I put some of these pebbles in to kickstart the cycle? Will it have the correct nitrifying bacteria in it already? I'm planning on putting trout in over winter and want to kickstart the cycle as soon as possible so I can get the climate suitable for the fish. What are your thoughts on this?

[@RobsAquaponics]

Hi Nigel. Sorry it took so long to get back to you. Adding the rocks will help to kick start the bacteria colony to build up. 👍 Hope the systems cycling well for you.

[@jaozinasd]

Greetings from Brazil Rob! Can I leave the growbed without plants and pump the water from the growbed to a vertical pipe with my plants ? I mean, the cycle will work normally ?

[@RobsAquaponics]

That should work OK as long as you have enough media to act as a biofilter mate. 👍

[@peterdraper4987]

Bugger...Just finished building my system today and was about to order fish. Double bugger, another 6 weeks..

[@RobsAquaponics]

Am sure it will fly by in your climate mate. ;)

[@JamieT914]

Hi Rob, Thanks for a great video! Quick question, how often do you add the seaweed powder? And does that change while you’re cycling versus when you’re adding fish?

[@RobsAquaponics]

I add about a dessert spoons worth into each bed once a month. 👍 I don't think I'd add more than one lot in a cycling system as there generally aren't a lot of plants in there to start off with & the nitrate levels are also very low.

[@tinkergnomad]

I can't get your amazon link to work, and I'd really like to support your channel.

[@RobsAquaponics]

Thanks TG. 👍😁 I just clicked on www.amazon.com/shop/bnbob01 & it took me to the store page. Does that one help?

[@rubinbruce9898]

Would it be possible to take a buckets of let's say catfish out of a pond and introduce it to the system along with the water they were in to do this in a week or so?

[@RobsAquaponics]

If you used water from the pond I dare say that it would speed the cycling up a lot as the water would be teaming with the required bacteria. I'd still keep an eye on the ammonia & nitrite levels. If they get high you could do a 50% water change with water from the pond. I'd also not feed the catfish more than a small bit a few times a week either as they will be producing enough ammonia to get the ball rolling without being fed. Hope that helps some & sorry for taking a while to respond.

[@hjhuk555]

So I am shutting down an attempted 10 gallon system. What is a good sized indoor beginner project for this sized system? I live where we get all 4 seasons and want to work up some knowledge before building this in a greenhouse.

[@RobsAquaponics]

I think a 130gal is the smallest I would go for table fish so maybe only be practical for a garage or basement. How much room do you have available?

[@monstacoin8236]

i was wondering if I add a new grow bed to my system do i need to cycle it? will it affect the fish in my system? could i just take out half the medium from my existing bed and mix it in with the new bed? will it be ready for growing and will the fish be okay? sorry for so many questions. love your vids!

[@RobsAquaponics]

You should be able to bring it straight on line with no issues MC as the other beds will have the right amount of bacteria in them already to process the waste for the fish load you have. 👍 Hope that helps mate.

[@thomaskuttukaran2935]

Hey, I really like your videos on Aquaponics and it has inspired me to setup one for myself, using a fish tank and crates. I had a question about cycling, for how long or how many days do you add the ammonia, in the graph it showed ammonia at its peak on the 10th day, so for how long do I have to keep adding them ammonia?

[@RobsAquaponics]

I would keep adding it until the day before the fish go in, even after it's cycled as it will be providing food for the bacteria. If you stop then the bacteria levels may decrease in number & you might (or might not) get another spike when you add your fish. There's a lot of variables so I can't say you will for sure as you'd understand. 😉

[@thomaskuttukaran2935]

@@RobsAquaponics Thank you

[@coleweede1953]

At what point in your setup/cycling process of getting it up and going again do you plan to add composting worms to the gravel beds again?

[@RobsAquaponics]

Probably best to wait until you have some plants & fish in the system Cole. There won't be much for them to feed on otherwise. Happy growing mate. 👍🥦🐟

[@MrVicious101]

Hi Rob. My thai basil keep wilting and dying off in my aquaponic system. Other plants seem to be doin fine. Do u hv any advice or info on what is causing this. Tia.

[@RobsAquaponics]

I had that issue when the weather started to heat up here. Another issue could be mites or some small pest sucking the life from them. Sorry I'm not much help there MrVicious.

[@brendanmurphy4718]

Hi rob so this is something that dosent need to be done once fingerlings and seedlings are in the system or is this something can keep doing to help the system preform ?

[@RobsAquaponics]

I would only add the fingerlings once the system is completely cycled & you see trace ammonia & no nitrite in the test at all. As for seedlings, they can go in fairly much straight away. Cheers Brendan.

[@joependergrass3042]

Hey Rob, I wanted see if I can get some help in the cycling of the water. We have been running the system for over a few weeks now and we are not seeing Ammonia, Nitrite, or Nitrate when we test. I must say that we did not start test until last week when we seen the fish no longer dieing. We do have gold fish in the system and we have had 1 or 2 die in the last few weeks. I saw that your system was showing nitrate when you said that it is cycled and starte to get the fish ready. Thanks alot you have tought me so much so far. I hope your MOM and Dad a staying safe.

[@RobsAquaponics]

Hi Joe. Sorry it took so long to reply. How's the system going now? Are you seeing any ammonia, nitrite or nitrate?

[@joecanales9631]

Howdy Rob. Great info, which would have been much better a couple weeks ago, but still very informative.

[@joecanales9631]

Oops pressed send prematurely. I had just started up my new system, had sterile media (Hydroton clay balls) in two beds, 4x6’; and a 12x3’ water trough. Using captured rainwater as well water in the area has high calcium content. Added nutrients in the form of fish emulsion, but mostly ammonia I found out. System had no good bacteria so ammonia was maxed out for about a week and already had some cilantro trying to grow. When I figured lack of bacteria was the problem, I first threw in some aquarium gravel and biomedia I had from years back, and worried it wasn’t enough, so went into town (50 km. down the hill) to an pet shop with good aquarium department and got some Stability, beneficial bacteria in a bottle for setting up new aquariums. Two weeks now and ammonia at about.25 ppm, 2 ppm for nitrites, and about 2-5 ppm for nitrates. Plants doing much better (cilantro is damn hardy!) and just now added a bit more fish emulsion as per your video. Great information!

[@joecanales9631]

By the way, still need to set up the fish tanks, but wanted to be sure my filtering system was up and working.

[@RobsAquaponics]

Is good to read you got it all sorted in the end Joe. 👍 What sort of fish are you thinking of using in the system? Cheers mate.

[@joecanales9631]

Rob Bob's Aquaponics & Backyard Farm I’m debating between bluegill or trout. The water may be too cold for talapia. I am planning on putting the fish tank inside a garage but an aquarium full of water I had been testing for water temperature had a year long range of 10 - 25 C. We live in the high desert of New Mexico, over 2000m elevation. Sunny days and cool nights. Thanks for your help!

[@RobsAquaponics]

@@joecanales9631 From what I've read the trout folks use here (Rainbow) start to die when it hits about 25°C so it might just do OK for you there if you can keep the temp down just a bit. It's too warm to grow them out here but would like to give them a go one day. Happy growing mate.

[@aharonneill-stevens8239]

Hi ROb - would like to know where you get your 'Root and Ramble' shirts from.. Thanks

[@RobsAquaponics]

They have now shut up shop I'm sorry to say Aaron. 😕 I managed to snap up a few just as they were shutting down a few months back.

[@aharonneill-stevens8239]

That's a shame.. But many thanks for responding Rob..

[@glaubecampusministries8988]

Hi Rob, I'm about to start a aquaponic, design is already done according to some of your tips - thanks! I was thinking to add the fingerlings and use them for cycling as it would reduce time. Of course I want to make sure that water quality is appropriate for the fish. Regarding ammonia, nitrate and nitrite, I assume the only thing to consider is the ammonia that should be below 4.0 ppm, right or do you see any problem with this? I also assume that I would need some veggies in my seedbed then. How and how big should the veggie's already be before transferring the fish?

[@RobsAquaponics]

I'm sorry I missed this. Ammonia at 4ppm would be very toxic to the fish. To cycle with fish you need to make sure that your water temp & pH fall to certain levels or you'll poison them very fast. You'd also need to salt the water with pure sea salt to prevent them dying from nitrite poisoning (AKA Brown Blood Disease). How is the system going for you, did you cycle it successfully?

[@krieegs1]

Hi Rob, I have had a crack at two chop and flippies but both times the fish have died. After watching this I think it's because the system wasn't cycled. I've fired it up again with no fish and put the charlie carp and seaweed stuff in, butter leuttice kale and some leafy greens are growing. Problem is ammonia is not going down - and I have some white chalky salty looking build up on my clay balls. I fear there are no bacteria in the grow media - is there a way to add the bacteria or something that can be done to attract them / stimulate their colony?? Thank you - you've inspired my aquaponic journey!

[@RobsAquaponics]

Hi SK. Have the levels started to drop yet? I wouldn't worry about the salts building up in a few small patches, it happens quite often. You can add additional bacteria by getting some media from a healthy cycled system if you know anyone else that does aquaponics. Are you here on OZ?

[@krieegs1]

@@RobsAquaponics Hi Rob thanks for the reply! Yes I'm here in NSW. The ammonia went down, yes. Nitrite went above trace but no sign of any nitrate! Possible the plants are using it all? I have since added more Charlie carp and restarted the cycle again and watching the results.

[@RobsAquaponics]

@@krieegs1 It is possable. Are you regularly adding the charley carp?

[@krieegs1]

@@RobsAquaponics not regularly no only after the ammonia goes down. I might have to do more frequent tests to try and see if I can detect more than trace 😁

[@RobsAquaponics]

@@krieegs1 As soon as it starts to drop you could add a little back in 👍

[@pewithstew8975]

Hey Rob, great videos. I have built a chop and flip from one IBC. I have started the cycling process. Just wondering when I add the salt? Also how long should it take until I get nitrite and nitrate to appear. I'm at 21 days with no evidence as yet, ammonia appears to be staying around the same level. I have a few cos lettuce planted in the system. Thanks Stew🙂

[@mrbrown3546]

Can be a little slow and stubborn in some systems, colder weather can also slow things a little. Hopefully your system is kicking along by now. If not harass Rob again and good luck.

[@pewithstew8975]

@@mrbrown3546 Thanks for the reply! Nitrite is there now as is nitrate. Ammonia is super low and I am adding it each day. Just waiting for the nitrite to lower now, so I can add the fish.

[@awebster653]

Are you using a venturi on your fishtank?

[@RobsAquaponics]

Not at the moment but have one to pop on there come summer when the water temp rises. 👍 Cheers.

[@hoib0i]

Hi Rob, thank you for the informative videos. I've built my own chop-flip system based on your design! I've now been cycling my system for almost 2 months now, and my graph looks similar to yours, but my Nitrite has been stable at 2ppm for a month now and doesn't seem to go down any further. I have been topping off my ammonia at around 3ppm every other day, so I know there is bacteria, but I am unable to get my Nitrite levels down. Is it safe for me to throw in Goldfish at these levels?

[@RobsAquaponics]

Sorry I missed this mate. How's the system traveling now? What are your nitrate levels at? If they're present then the nitrite is being oxidised. If you have salted the system to 1 part pure sea salt (not iodised table salt) to 1000 parts water the fish will be protected from nitrite poisoning.

[@hoib0i]

@@RobsAquaponics I am very glad you asked, because the numbers have not changed since then. Nitrates are at almost 160, and Nitrites are at 2.0 consistently. I have tried starving my system of ammonia to see if the levels will "flush itself out", but it has not. Also, when I gave ammonia again after a week (normally every other day), ammonia was consumed in a day, so I know the bacteria are doing well. Could it be that I am not growing enough vegetables? I followed your IBC chop-n-flip tutorial, so I have just one grow bed, but I do have a whole separate IBC for the fish so tons of water. If I put in sea salt, do I need to switch to salt-water fish? I'd like to raise rainbow trouts. And thank you for responding even after a month!

[@jeremysalas5390]

Question, I've had my new system cycling for almost 2 weeks. Ammonia level is around 3ppm , but I can't get any nitrite, or nitrates. What am I doing wrong? I've put fish emulsion in and still nothing.

[@RobsAquaponics]

Hi Jeremy & sorry for taking a while to respond. At a guess I' say that things are running OK now? It can take a while for the bacteria to set up colonies & start to process the ammonia depending on your climate. Would like to know how you're getting on with the system. Cheers.

[@ukaquaponics8855]

Hi Rob, i have 1 ibc with 12 koi in. It only has a small canister filter with 3 internal sponges. I plan to expand to 2 ibc tanks + 2 more cut in half to create 4 media beds. If I plumb in what will be my Aquaponics filter before hand will that be enough to colonise the bacteria or will the increase in water volume put me back to the beginning?

[@RobsAquaponics]

All should be fine as long as you don't increase the fish/feed load & include the canister filter into the build UK AP. 👍 You could probably get away with adding the filter material itself under the grow bed inlets to help seed them & remove them at a later date.

[@trustmoyo4755]

Hi Bob can you explain how aquapoincs system with soil works

[@minty737]

The whole point of hydroponics and aquaponics systems is that they don't use soil.

[@RobsAquaponics]

Some folks will place post with soil in them into the grow beds & use the water to irrigate the plants. It's actually something I'm considering trying with this system to see how it goes. Some folks call it "dual root zone" but I tend to think of it as a way not to forget to water my plants. 😉 You'll find a lot of cannabis growers in the USA are trying this method to see how it goes. Cheers.

[@bigwavefla161]

Where do your levels stand right now, Are you close to adding the perch?

[@RobsAquaponics]

I took that pic I used in the clip yesterday so I think I'm about a week or 2 away BWF. 👍 Had a local chap offer me some of his oversupply so will be popping out to visit him this weekend to see if they're suitable for our needs. Cheers mate

[@beevondewitz2794]

Hi! I am busy building an aquaponic system. When I start to cycle it...is it a good idea to use a used filter from my fishpond (old system with healthy fish) to get healthy bacteria in? Just a thought....

[@RobsAquaponics]

Hi Bee. That's a great idea & have used that method myself. 👍 Hope the cycling goes swiftly for you. Happy growing.

[@PeterDosRamos]

Great video Rob... As always. Can't believe that 1 person didn't like this video... Lol

[@RobsAquaponics]

There's always one Peter. 😉 Thanks mate & have a great one.

[@exclusivefrenchies343]

I have a few questions? 1) Dose nitrous simon need to be added to the system after build? Or does it occur naturally? Also same question for the second bacteria 🦠 as well? 2) can this system also breakdown animal pee ammonia? Mainly dogs, because I own a kennel and have a big dog run that is cleaned very well every day and I’m trying to recycle ♻️ all that water in some sort of natural cult ration system or like this and be put back in to plants as nitrate. please help with this question.

[@RealMac101]

Hi Rob! Would it be possible to run the system only with the fish emulsion without adding fish? If so what would be the advantages and/or disadvantages. I see a few bioponics videos on KZbin and I was just wondering.

[@RobsAquaponics]

I suppose it could be done on a small scale but think you might still need to flush the system like a hydro one to prevent particular elements from building up. I think I'd probably go for an organic based hydro solution like the Bloom packs I'm using on the Kratky hydro tubs RM.👍 Hope that helps some.

[@RealMac101]

@ Rob Bob's Aquaponics & Backyard Farm- that does help thanks much cheers 🥂.

[@jethercalope6378]

Hi Rob. My system is now cycled I think. I have zero amonia and zero nitrite, but my nitrate is zero too. What happened?

[@RobsAquaponics]

Hi Jether. It could be that the plants are using up all that is being created, which can happen in over planted newer systems. Have you got the fish in yet?

[@jethercalope6378]

@@RobsAquaponics well I think so since since green leaves are growing rapidly and I have only 1 400g catfish. I'm using 2 blue 200L barrels, only 1 has the fish and 2 grow beds (the top part of the barrel)

[@xyooj96]

if you wait on the plants until you have sufficient nutrients for the plants, what do you use to filter the harmful products to the fish before you release those water back to the slump tank which eventually go back to the fish tank?

[@RobsAquaponics]

In a single loop system where the water goes from the fish to the beds before entering the sump. You'll have no issues once the system is cycled as the bacteria would have set up colonies on the growing media in the beds. 👍 In the split flow systems, like ours, you can have issues with ammonia & nitrite going back to the fish & that's why I don't like the way they're promoted. I add a biofilter after the solids settler & before the fish water enters the sump to help convert all ammonia through to nitrate & recommend everyone does the same.😉 In this clip, it's the little blue drum in the sump itself that you can see just over my shoulder. This clip will give you a better look at it, kzbin.info/www/bejne/kJ6ucoKYgdWSiNk I'm actually in the process of upgrading it yet again which I'll be showing in an upcoming clip. Hope that's helped some. Cheers.

[@samsunny6483]

Can I use any other fertilizer, for ammonia cycling, I'm from India I don't find the Charlie carp

[@RobsAquaponics]

Cleaning ammonia like I mentioned in this video can be used. Just make sure it's pure ammonia & only use a little at a time. Urea is another fertiliser that you may have available to you. Add a VERY SMALL amount & continue to test until you see ammonia turn up. May take a few days. Don't let the levels get too high as I mentioned in this video.

[@samsunny6483]

@@RobsAquaponics thanx mate 👍 cheers

[@Shane_O.5158]

can you take a bucket of water from a mates system to start cycle ? ( I know you said rocks ).

[@RobsAquaponics]

That would work as well Shane as the bacteria can be found all through the system. 👍 Just need to make sure it's a healthy system though. Cheers mate.

[@MichaelHoffmannG]

This is how I cycle my system. A couple cups of water from an established fish tank is plenty to get my 60 gallon system cycled in a few days.

[@MichaelHoffmannG]

Winter is just ending here in the northern hemisphere, so I'm ready to get peas and broccoli planted. Do you have any recommendations for "de-winterizing"? My system was mostly frozen for the last 4 months. Thankfully goldfish are excellent at surviving cold and low-oxygen water and all 5 of them made it through the winter, but I'm worried about the bacteria. I have a test kit on the way but until it gets here I have no idea how they're doing and I'm worried the fish are going to die in their own waste before I get the bacteria recolonized.

[@RobsAquaponics]

It's not something I've had any experience with sorry Michael. Ammonia is mainly in the form of ammonium when the water temp & pH are low. It isn't as toxic in this form so that could be one reason they're still doing OK. If you've been feeding the fish regularly I would think that there's enough bacteria alive in the system or the pH & temp are low enough to keep them safe. If that's the case, I'd think the bacteria colonies will slowly increase as the water temp does. I would hold off increasing the feed amount until the kit arrives just to make sure you know what the numbers are. Sorry I'm not much more help than that. Would like to know how you get on if that's OK. Cheers mate.

[@MichaelHoffmannG]

@@RobsAquaponics Thanks for the reply and the great videos! I actually didn't feed the fish at all for about 4 months prior to yesterday- my tank was totally frozen except for a bit at the bottom so I couldn't get food to them at all. I'm using goldfish and, incredibly, they're adapted to survive those conditions ( www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/now-we-know-how-goldfish-produce-alcohol-180964502/ ) but I'm worried all the bacteria froze to death while the fish weren't producing waste. I'll keep you updated when the kit gets here though.

[@RobsAquaponics]

@@MichaelHoffmannG Thanks mate. 👍

[@MichaelHoffmannG]

@@RobsAquaponics My test kit arrived and all the levels are great! pH is 8 which is a little higher than ideal, but ammonia is

[@peterdraper4987]

I'm struggling to find pure ammonia here in the Philippines. How do I go about cycling the system using fish from the start? Or isn't that possible?

[@RobsAquaponics]

You can cycle with fish but it's more involved. Low pH (6.8 or lower) & water temps under 20°C will help protect the fish against ammonia poisoning. You'll also need to add some chloride to help prevent nitrite poisoning. Easiest way to add that is by using PURE sea salt (sodium chloride) not table salt as it can have additives like iodine that will cause issues. 1kg per 1000L of water is the rule of thumb used by most. I'd suggest that you look up cycling with fish & read up a bit on it as well just in case I missed something.

[@vitapugnanasagar]

Is it really necessary to add external ammonia, fish waste will produce ammonia right?

[@RobsAquaponics]

If you'e cycling a system with no fish you'll need to add in ammonia to allow the bacteria to set up colonies in the grow beds. Cheers.

[@rafigrumi97]

I was wondering if the colored water resulting from the tests (pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, KH) can be thrown back into the system's water

[@rafigrumi97]

Amazon product's description... Danger - Harmful if inhaled. - Harmful if swallowed. - Causes serious eye irritation. - Causes serious eye damage. - It causes serious skin burns and serious eye injuries. - It can be corrosive to metals. - It can irritate the respiratory tract. - Suspected of causing genetic defects.

[@RobsAquaponics]

Was that the API kit Rafael. ?

[@rafigrumi97]

@@RobsAquaponics I double-checked API's website, apifishcare.com/product/freshwater-master-test-kit you can scroll and find the safety sheets, pH and Nitrite tests seem not dangerous (as for the specs but i wouldn't risk), but the rest are all highly dangerous/corrosive!

[@marcelwright7083]

What are ideal ammonia/nitrate levels with fish before adding plants?

[@RobsAquaponics]

Trace ammonia, 0ppm nitrite & once you're cycled you should have a decent amount of nitrate.👍👍Plants can also go in as you're cycling.

[@matthenry894]

At what point in the system are you taking your test samples from?

[@RobsAquaponics]

For ammonia & nitrite I like to check in the sump as that's the water that will be delivered to the fish tank.👍 In theory, the water in it should be clear of ammonia & nitrite as the water would have had to pass through either of the bio filters, them being the grow beds or the moving bed biofilter. Hope that helps.

[@warren7565]

Than k you for another useful video. Regarding kick starting the media bed. I have a number of aquariums with waterfall filters that I also put wool in as an extra filter. I'm assuming that I could place one of the pieces of wool in each grow bed to give it a kick start. Maybe even cut it in half and put half in each end of the beds. This should help shouldn't it? Also I have a couple of cichlet tanks. These guys are messy eaters and ammonia tends to build up in the tanks so they need regular water changes. So I'm thinking of putting their old water into my system (it's still a number of months away from setting up :/ ) to help keep the ammonia levels up, if needed. A friend will also give me 2 adult maybre 2 years old jade perch that I will put in early on. It will be a 5000-6000L system so I'm not worried about killing the fish. The system will be 2000L fish tank, 500L radial filter, 500L bio filter with between 118-150L of K1 style media 3x 1000L IBCs that will form 3 grow beds and 3 sumps I'm planning to amke it a ?? split flow system as the tank and two filters will be on the other side of a walk way to the grow beds and sumps. The end game plan is to have 100 fish inthe 2000L tank and when they are 6 months old put 100 fingerlings into one of the sumps. That sump will also have sponge filters in it and I realise that I will more than likely need to clean that sump like a fish tank needs. Is my thinking sound as long as I take it slowly and keep an eye on my levels as I for my fish tanks?

[@RobsAquaponics]

Hey Warren & sorry it took so long to reply. Using that water would be a great way to add ammonia & also help to seed the bacteria colonies.👍👍 I'd probably only stock to 80 in a 2K tank starting out but it sounds like you're fairly experienced in keeping fish. Have you made a start on the system yet?

[@warren7565]

@@RobsAquaponics I've just started by raising the 2000L 40cm and need to position the 2x 500L radial filter and bio filter. I'm thinking of trying a sponge filter between the 2 500L filters. I'm going to make it so if the sponges block up it just over flows and still passes through.. I'm planning to start a subscription with you and I'll share the progress. Thank you for the reply I know it must be hard to reply to everyone.

[@RobsAquaponics]

@@warren7565 Have been spending a few hours a day over the past week & am almost there. Have another days worth then I can start my holiday. 😉😃 Cheers mate & have a top one.

[@asdf1324]

Hello! i have a quick question, wouldn't 2 sump tanks be much more beneficial for the fish and the plants? having one sump tank collect the RAS water and the other sump tank be the clean water, or just have the water from the Hydroponic units flow directly to the fish tank sounds more beneficial for the fish and plants? is it better to use one sump tank and one pump to flow water to both aquiculture tanks and hydroponic units? i'm planning on building an aquaponic unit using 2 sump tanks. is this not a good idea after all?

[@RobsAquaponics]

2 sumps would be a great idea if you have the space asdf 👍 Ultimately, I think it would be best to have the clean water from the beds to flow directly into the fish tank if you have the room & ability to set the system up in a "stacked arrangement" so the components can be a different levels. Hope that helps some.

[@asdf1324]

@@RobsAquaponics yeah. It has already been redesign. I will be utilizing 250 gallon (946.353 liters) tank for the fish, a 35 gallon (132.489 liters) solids collection tank, a small trickle system, And 2 flood and drain beds (size undetermined) and 1 sump tank. All will be a single loop system. I already have my electrical plan already delt with using my solar powered shed to run the pump all day and night even through a couple continuously rainy days. I just don't know if I will be able to hold enough fish that I want, I will be using enough biomedia beds to hold 12 rainbow bass but I'm afraid the tank is to small for that amount of fish for up to the recommended pound.. I will be fine with using less fish but I was going to harvest and sell some of the fish to coworkers of mine as well (were all cooks in a restaurant).

[@RobsAquaponics]

@@asdf1324 Sounds like you're on your way mate. Hope the build goes smoothly. 👍🐟🐟

[@asdf1324]

@@RobsAquaponics thank you so muchhh! 🙏🍅🥬

[@bolivarsanchez7329]

BUENAS, SI ME LO TRADUCES AL IDIOMA ESPAÑOL FUERA UN EXITO PARA MI, ESTOY MUY INTERESADO EN ESOS PROYECTOS

[@RobsAquaponics]

Hola Bolivar. También me gustaría traducir los videos de KZbin, pero el costo es un poco elevado en este momento. Ahora tengo una guía hecha por Retrieve que tiene traducción de texto y voz en español si eso ayuda en algo. Lo puedes encontrar aquí - robbobaquaponics.retrieve.com/g/XL0J6T2P#/content/90525 Saludos compañero. 🍻 (Google Translate) Hi Bolivar I would like to get the KZbin videos translated as well but the cost is a bit much at the moment I now have a guide made by Retrieve that has Spanish text & voice translation if that helps at all. You can find the guide here - robbobaquaponics.retrieve.com/g/XL0J6T2P#/content/90525 Cheers mate 🍻

[@samsunny6483]

How much should be the ammonia, nitrite levels in water after adding fish

[@RobsAquaponics]

Nitrite should be 0ppm but you will nearly always have a very small amount of ammonia, 0.25ppm or lower would be ideal there.

[@bucknash]

It seems to be exactly the same process as cycling an aquarium. What about using filter media or gravel from a healthy aquarium to help it along. I imagine many of not most people interested in aquaponics would already keep fish tanks.

[@RobsAquaponics]

Fairly mush the same process. 👍 I started one of ours using media from another system & it works a treat. Cheers & happy growing.

[@MichaelBrown-kk6ck]

Where does the bacteria come from initially if you don’t pinch it from your mates?

[@RobsAquaponics]

They're around us in the atmosphere & on most surfaces Michael. Is a case of build it & they will come. Cheers.

[@samsunny6483]

Can we use laboratory reagent ammonia. ?

[@RobsAquaponics]

if it's pure ammonia (NH3 or NH₄⁺) it should be fine.

[@samsunny6483]

Yea its working , its pure ammonia

[@samsunny6483]

Any possiblitiy to send phots of my system

[@RobsAquaponics]

@@samsunny6483 It's best to upload a video to KZbin & send me a link. 👍

[@samsunny6483]

@@RobsAquaponics sure mate ill do that ,

[@fragile1976]

There is a green tint in the water behind you, is this normal?

[@RobsAquaponics]

That might just be the way the camera in the phone picked it up. It's actually a bit brown due to the tannin in the feed & the kelp we add in.

[@rehoboth_farm]

Operate the charging handle?

[@RobsAquaponics]

Huh???🤔

[@ZuluAltang]

Hey Rob Here in South Africa Got my go slow new system build on the way.. Need to bother you just a bit for some advice... How do I contact you?

[@RobsAquaponics]

Hey Zaakir. Using the comment section here on YT is probably the best way for basic questions & I'll get back to you when I can. 👍 You can post over on my Facebook wall if you pictures. facebook.com/Bitsouttheback If I pop my email up here I get swamped unfortunately. Hope you understand.

[@ZuluAltang]

@@RobsAquaponics Yup I understand totally! If you need my email address again let me know please . Have a few questions with layout and sunlight hours since the area I have doesn't get full sun throughout the day. I'll check out the Facebook page meanwhile. 👍 👍

[@RobsAquaponics]

@@ZuluAltang I'm sorry mate but I don't recall getting your email. I get swamped at times & lose emails/messages.

[@ZuluAltang]

@@RobsAquaponics Alright. No problem It's [e-mail]. Send me just a test right now before you get stuck into something else lol

[@muller135]

Throwing in a few dead prawn would work also I am guessing

[@RobsAquaponics]

It will work but you need to make sure there's a continual supply of ammonia. If you don't the bacterial colony may not be large enough to handle the fish waste when you add them. Cheers.

[@savioborges1311]

Rob, Hi my name is Savio from India I got this NH3 Ammonia concentrated one can I use that? Bought it from amazon.in.

[@RobsAquaponics]

I'm sorry I missed your comment. Hope the system cycled OK.

[@savioborges1311]

@@RobsAquaponics Not yet due to lockdown I could not travel from my work place to my greenhouse but by next Monday I should get all the assembling done for the test kit and start the cycle.

[@savioborges1311]

@@RobsAquaponics Thanks a lot for your reply mate, I know you are very busy and your reply meant a lot to me. 🙏

[@marcusk7855]

I'd just pee in it to get it started. It'd be organic.

[@RWSBrowning]

Even better pee after eating asparagus.

[@andyreid7274]

Just as long as you are not on heavy medications. Otherwise youre "golden"!

[@RobsAquaponics]

Have done that myself & use it as fertiliser all through the patch. 👍 You still need to test the levels & do it regularly to feed the bacteria. Also don't do it if you're on meds as they may cause issues with the bacteria.

[@周宏宏-j7e]

Seriously？😂

[@organiccleanfoodconnection]

Rob Bob's Aquaponics & Backyard Farm no one can think outside the box :-) just a quick five minute video to give you a big thank you I appreciate all your help. kzbin.info/www/bejne/hnfCoX6Za6-ZraM

[@samsunny6483]

Can we put dead fish to cycle the system? Instead of using ammonia source

[@RobsAquaponics]

You certainly can.👍 Might be a bit hard to judge the amount so keep an eye on the test readings.

[@samsunny6483]

@@RobsAquaponics so once the ammonia has generated, shud we take out those fish immediately.?

[@RobsAquaponics]

@@samsunny6483 Only if it goes over the 4ppm 👍

[@samsunny6483]

@@RobsAquaponics thanx man for the info would be lot helpfull for me. 🙂

[@samsunny6483]

@@RobsAquaponics is it a organic fertilizer Charlie carp ?

[@thetropicals5355]

Can you make a vid about diy organic pesticides safe for aquaponics?😶🤪

[@RobsAquaponics]

?🤔?

[@thetropicals5355]

@@RobsAquaponics my tomatoes in aquaponics is affected with miners and is spreading fast

[@fredyalextelloidme88]

Muito obrigado. Please subtítulo em português ou spanish 🙏

[@RobsAquaponics]

Eu gostaria assim que puder. obrigado (google translate)

[@samsunny6483]

My system has ammonia around 2 to 4 ppm , nitrite is at 5 ppm and nitrate around 15ppm ,but its inly been 3 days

[@samsunny6483]

My siphon isnt breaking properly , are there any reasons

[@RobsAquaponics]

Nice one. You're well on your way then. 👍

[@RobsAquaponics]

@@samsunny6483 I have a siphon 101 video that may help some Sam, kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHyolouErLirjbc

[@samsunny6483]

Its breaking properly , i dint make a hole on bell siphon , so it wasnt doing good , now the problem is solved mate

[@samsunny6483]

@@RobsAquaponics after doing nitrite test after a couple of minutes the colour is changing to 6.8 ph colour

[@devono7230]

Those clay balls cost a fortune. Does anyone know where to get them at a good price

[@RobsAquaponics]

I found buying in bulk & playing the hydroponics stores off each other helped save a few bob on them Devon.