HOW TO install a flat tappet Camshaft! 68 Z/28 302 30-30 DUNTOV FIRST START! DONE WITH COMP CAMS!!

[@johnpena9165]

I've been running flat tappet mechanical camshafts (General Kinetics, Crane, Competition Cams, Lunati and Racer Brown) since the late 70's and fortunately have never had a problem with any of them going flat !

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks John, I did lose one in 1999, before we knew about the zinc issue. AG

[@victoroneill7924]

I built my first engine in 1963 when I was 20 years old. It was a 265" "Power Pack" Chevy in a low mileage '56 Chevy. I ported the heads, had the engine bored 1/8" and installed Corvette 11:1 forged pistons. The machinist suggested that I use a Melling "Drag Only" #22400 solid lifter cam. Melling had a more radical "Drag Only" cam but the machinist said was too much for my 3400 lb. Chevy. I found a complete set of dual quad carbs from a 270 hp '57 Corvette. With a good set of headers and 4.56 gears this car was very fast. I raced a '56 Ford with a 406" /406 hp engine in at our local 1/4 mile track and beat him by 6 car lengths. That engine would pull hard to 7500 rpm and was my daily driver for 2 years. I replaced that engine with a new "fuel injection" 327" ( I had one big AFB). The 327" with the 30-30 Duntov cam stopped pulling at 6500 rpm but it would spin the tires in 2nd gear. I should have put a Melling cam in it☺. I forgot to mention that I've never had a solid lifter cam lobe go flat.

[@goldsgarage8236]

Great story, thanks Victor. Sounds like a very cool old school build. I can relate to that.AG

[@ronaldlingle8766]

That just goes to show you how vulnerable anybody can be at a given point in time when what you think should be right is not and how to correct it and learn from it and go on. Keep up the good work man that's what keeps us coming back.

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks for coming back Ronald. I will do that.AG

[@JimmyMakingitwork]

Back in the day some of the guys didn't trust the shop air to hold the valves closed, so we would stuff rope in the spark plug holes until we couldn't fit anymore and we were good to go.

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks for the tips guys.AG

[@samuelanselmo4159]

I still believe in points ignition. I'm 69 and a retired mechanic and in my racing days I used Accel dual points distributor and separated the points and run two coils with a Maroso splitter.

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks Sam, they work fine, just need more maintenance. I had a Mallory 4 lobe dual point distributor on my C/MP car. I needed a distributor machine to tune it. AG

[@samuelanselmo4159]

@goldsgarage8236 I never had to do that. I always use a marine distributor. 17 thousands on the main and 14 thousands on the secondary. Separate the points on separate coils. I had to turn the fuel up. Something else I used was a tuner plate with stainless steel screen between the intake and the tuner plate. Increase the acceleration by 36%. Old school tricks I learned from HotRod Magazine

[@royalemurry4026]

Thank you for showing real results that flat tappet camshafts can still be used with positive results. Building 383 sbc been on the fence for awhile over roller or flat. But I’ve seen you make it possible more than once. Giving me enough confidence to go flat tappet. Thanks!

[@CULT539]

You sure?is it worth saving a few hundred bucks? I don’t think so.

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks Royale, the cost difference between a FT and roller all in is more than a few hundred bucks. AG

[@setha360]

Last year I built a 1977 chevy 454, cam break in, prelubed system with oil pump tool, break in oil high zink, got running and 2200 rpm for 20 minutes, cool down then again, was stressing using comp cam , went with a stock camshaft that was new old stock from 1980, stock was beefier than comp cam and works good, so lost 20hp, but no wiped cam lobe. Lifters were elgin,

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks for sharing your experience Seth.AG

[@toddbrown2236]

Good video, Allan. I'm happy that you were able to move forward with Tony's engine. It sounds great! I'm surprised however that he elected to not dyno the engine. Thanks for the video!

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks Todd, I am following your progress on the GTO.AG

[@bigal878]

Good video. I think that 302 needs more compression for that solid lifter cam. I would have decked the block and just stopped short so the engine numbers remain. I hope those pressed steel rockers survive the RPM that the cam wants to make power at. The other key area that people do not check with flat tappet camshaft’s is the tapper on the camshaft and the lifter face. These have a direct connection to lifter rotation in the lifter bores. I have recently built two customer Holden V8 engines with solid flat tappet cams and I had both sets of lifters re-faced. Camshaft’s are custom designed and ground here in Australia. These engines were dyno run in and performing well with no signs of cam or lifter failure. 👍🇦🇺

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks Bigal and welcome Australia. Those rockers went 7000 RPM all day long in the original 302s. AG

[@johnmilner7603]

If that was true then GM should not have lowered the compression on the 71 Z/28 from its previous yr of 11:1 to 9:1. The 70 ran fine. I have owned my 70 Z/28 since 1981 and sure the 70 is stronger but the 71 isn’t a slouch. In ‘74 I purchased a 1968 Z/28 for $3,000. That was quite a revver. A friend of mine is the current owner.

[@TimothyArnott-m7z]

Hey AG, Tim here, I used to do same with cold lash on a solid, thinking heat will tighten it up, BUT the OPPOSITE is the true case.....and I found THIS rule, and its tried and true: iron head/block .004 tighter, aluminum head/iron block .006 tighter, Al head/Al block .008-.012 tighter, when set cold......i've personally tested this, sans Al/Al.as i've not had an aluminum block to play with yet.....but i have verified this to be true.....cam card said .018 hot, (Al head/iron block) i set cold at .012 (.006 tighter) once warmed up, etc....lash was DEAD ON the .018 required!!.....I keep a file card with this rule on it for future reference.....so iron/iron .004, Al/iron .006, Al/Al .008-.012......it works......just a bit of info i use....and verified....GREAT vid.....TY!!....PEACE to you sir!!

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks Tim, and peace to you also.AG

[@hollowell427]

Did the same thing in the 80's. Installed a new cam and used lifters on a 307 sbc Ran fine for years.

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks Hollowell, sometimes what you don't know won't hurt you.AG

[@davidmarshall8628]

Give the folks at Bullet Cams a call. I've seen their flat tappet cams do very well several times on another respectable channel.

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks for the tip David.AG

[@Dogboy1960]

There are a lot of oils that are high zinc available today. It is important to make it part of the program for sure when running flat tappet cams. Brought a late 1970s Z/28 to life for my nephew a little over 10 years ago. The car needed an engine and one just fell into our lap. His next door neighbor is a retired Chevy Dealer mechanic. He had a 4 bolt School Bus 350 he'd rebuilt with flat top pistons. The build was too close to stock so we swapped in a Comp 280 cam for more performance. I was certain I had explained the need for "Zinc" in the oil change fluid choices after break in but when he wiped a lobe 4 years later I asked what he'd been using. He proudly pointed to faithfully timed Mobil one synthetic and filter changes. I blame myself for that one he was was barely over 19 years old at the time and obviously he'd taken the whole zinc explanation as a break in procedure only. Stupid reason to have pull apart a good rebuild so very early but sometimes you gotta learn the hard way. It does happen. On side note: Someone could correct me if I'm wrong but it's my understanding the Zinc was removed because it will destroy Catalytic Converter material if/when it gets into the exhaust system.

[@goldsgarage8236]

Good point, i am sure there are many good flat tappet cams out there being destroyed this way. My understanding is that Zink wasn't needed for roller cams, it was expensive and yes, it damaged catalytic converters. AG

[@gregmaggielipscomb9246]

Very nice, thank you!

[@johnmilner7603]

I bought my prime tool from GM Parts at my local Chevy Dealer. Works great on my 70 Z/28 LT1. I’m also done with running with solid lifter cams in my 70 Z/28 4 speed. After losing lobes on 2 cams I went with a Lunati roller cam. I believe todays cams are using cheap steel and a piss poor hardening process. My roller was built in 2013 and so far no issues and yes I still run with good brand oils that have ZDDP for insurance.😮 The good ol days back in ‘74 when I owned my 1968 Z/28 when we still had quality are no longer around. It’s like nobody gives a rats ass anymore.

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks for your comments John, lots of frustration out there for sure.AG

[@roberthirshfield3571]

Built a 351 Cleveland used Howard’s cam and lifters so far so good 1.5 years ago

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks Robert, I have used many Howards cams wit good results too.AG

[@richardsmith-qy6vl]

I had the DZ 302 in my 69 camaro and I loved it the motor ran great that cam with a set of lee shepard cast iron angel plug heads worked great on a 331 I built I also used that camshaft with those heads on a 307...lol it really woke that lil engine up I know years back chevys hi performance catalog you could get that camshaft there were 2 different cams they offered 1 was called the 1st off road design there was a 2nd off road design I just remember the last 3 numbers were 140 for the ones I used it was a very popular camshaft and worked great. Ì think mellin makes a copy of the cam from what I heard I dont know how close the specs are but I'd love to use it in a small block I build also trick flow makes a set of the double hump heads that suppose to flow pretty good I'd love to put them on a small block with that cam and paint the heads so it looks period correct.

[@goldsgarage8236]

Lot's of great information, thanks for sharing Richard.AG

[@JeffBarker-q2f]

I had the “140” cam in a 360 with 12.6 : 1 CR with 4.56 4 speed and that Nova would fly!

[@terrysmith8133]

did you check the taper of the lobe of the cam and the crown of the lifters? i assume that you bought the cam and lifters both from comp. sounds like comp could be going down hill.

[@goldsgarage8236]

Actually, that is a good thing to do but I did not do that this time. AG

[@jeffreyeaton9934]

Cam Motion/ NK performance & racing just won Eric Weingadner’s cam challenge

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks Jeffrey, I will have to catch up on that. AG

[@johnmilner7603]

When should you use a cam button? My 70 Z/28 had one on my rebuild in ‘85 with a solid cam and when I changed the cam lifters and timing set in 2005 and broke in the cam with my old springs I reused the cam button.

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks John, you only need a cam button if you are using a roller cam (with link bar lifters) in a GEN 1 engine. It is used to control the for-aft motion of the cam, usually between .005-.010". Flat tappet cam lifters naturally push the cam toward the back of the block, so no button is required. GEN 2 engines are designed for roller cams that are located by a thrust plate. so no button required here also. Hope this helps.AG

[@racer44x]

If you are using guide plates you should open the pushrod holes in the heads so it’s not makeing contact with the pushrod in two points

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks Racer.AG

[@roberthollinshead2325]

Nice work! I bet some 1.6 rockers on the intake would help make use of the port work Bill Little did. If the intake isn't handicapping it.

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks for your comments Robert, AG

[@pamdunn8454]

FYI - your audio is a little on the low side and when you show parts or tools - like the allstar cam bolt lock kit "can you show the part number ? ... thanks for sharing

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks Pam, I found the problem, it's not the microphones, its me, i tend to trail of and lower my voice at the end of sentences. I will work on getting better. The Allstar part# is ALL90060 Lock plate kit. AG

[@pamdunn8454]

@@goldsgarage8236 thank you

[@jims2286]

Yes you can deck the 302 without losing the numbers. My friends that built engines for 40 years showed me how they do it.

[@goldsgarage8236]

Yes, I am aware of that. Some Machine shops can, but mine was not willing to. That said, by using the OEM .015" head gaskets and we achieved good quench and CR numbers for a street engine without decking. AG

[@joracer1]

The failure wirh all the cams that started about 10 years ago was no taper on cam and no crown on the lifter. Its a Chinese knowledge issue.

[@doomman700]

So you saying no cam grinder knows how to grind a flat tappet cam? I can name a few that would disagree

[@goldsgarage8236]

thanks for watching and commenting guys.AG

[@doomman700]

@@BigBlockChevrolethe is saying grinders do not know how to grind the lobe to spin a lifter correctly, many cam grinders(manufacturers) can

[@larrysandberg2786]

As a fellow Canadian (Thunder Bay) I usually pick up a little tidbit of info.each time I watch that I can use on my next BB build .Re the mesh screen between the filter and block, is this something only used on initial startup or can it be left in place afterwards. Thank you!.

[@goldsgarage8236]

Hello Thunder Bay, Typically I do remove it after break in but you can leave it in. I think it is a great diagnostic tool, like cutting the oil filter apart but less messy. We used it in the race car engine to provide an early warning if something is happening. AG

[@mikeowen9667]

Light valve springs is a good idea

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks Mike, it works for me. No failures yet.AG

[@davidtrue8956]

Competition products has a duntov 30-30 grind in stock

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks for the tip David. AG

[@k3cars]

Best way to my experience to eliminate worn lifters is fire up the motor with new lifters without oil, to give a chance for easy filling and easy load with Vasline lube. Thanks

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks for watching and commenting K3. AG

[@MVPisME383]

Think my brother's cam went flat in brandnew crate longblock from AutoZone, he used nothing but royal purple oil, on initial start 2 rockers were ticking they left both of number 7s loose, thought we got away with it but nope, he's in Louisiana too and we live in Alabama

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks MVP, lot's of sad storys out there about cam failures.AG

[@greggc8088]

Great video. Love the idea of using the weaker valve springs for cam break in. Question-I don't use them but don't usually spin an engine over about 6500, what's your opinion on cam thrust buttons? I noticed you didn't use on here but haven't paid much attention to if you did or didn't on your other builds.

[@yurimodin7333]

thrust button is for retrofit roller cams. Flat tappets are tapered to make the lifter rotate, this causes the cam to pull itself back into the block.

[@Hillbillygarage1215]

Flat tappets don't need cam buttons. The taper normally keeps the camshaft centered. Additionally a double roller chain isn't gonna allow the cam to walk either. Even thought that is not it's intended purpose.

[@goldsgarage8236]

All good comments guys, thanks for responding for me. AG

[@flinch622]

Weird that cam card is missing the 108icl posted online - proofing printing job must have fallen down. But this video reminds me of the 90's where torrington setups caught on. I recall some aftermarket manufacturer recommended drilling something like a 0.036" hole in the block [at 12 o'clock] to feed extra oil to the inner diameter region of the torrington for their timing sets. Anyone out there that tried this: happy with results, or not?

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks for the question Flinch. I have not done that. I think there is plenty of oil spilling from the lifter valley. AG

[@billhendon1017]

Nice !

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks You Bill.AG

[@shane-222]

With a grade 8 cam bolt do you increase the torque spec?

[@flinch622]

He went from 7/16" to 1/2" so... definitely

[@yurimodin7333]

no

[@goldsgarage8236]

For cam bolts, 20ft.lb. is ok.AG

[@Sunspot-19]

All you need is a can of spinach, Alan, then you don't need the test springs! 😉

[@JoshuaABartlett]

I would expect that a damper with that much wear from the seal would need changing just due to the age of the rubber ring.

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks for your comments Josh. AG

[@pontiac411]

Might look into Isky or Powell, not many small cam companies left.

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks Pontiac.AG

[@MVPisME383]

28:46 think you just voided your warranty 😂

[@joe-hp4nk]

It seems to me back in the day hi-performance street cams ie the duntov cam had long duration and a mild lift. To day hi-performance street cams have less duration buy higher lift. The high duration will give you higher rpm range but I think the torque suffers from the mild lift and with the high lift mild duration you get more low and mid range torque for better street performance. I know that was a mouth full but I hope you get my drift. Maybe there's another reason for the change in cam specs or am I imagining things. All the best.

[@goldsgarage8236]

Those are good points Joe and I agree. The stock 302 cam is a great example. AG

[@OwhyeeVdub]

I'm confused about the discussion in general. 99% of camshafts used in Volkswagen air-cooled are flat tappet camshafts. And aside from the oil issue some years back. It's not a problem.

[@yarrdayarrdayarrda]

The air cooled VW's have weak springs and little cams. Lawnmowers have flat tappet cams and also don't have valvetrain issues.

[@flinch622]

@@yarrdayarrdayarrda To hone in on that, a rough estimation of an average v8 hyd flat scenario is in order. Lets say springs are 420 pounds per inch and seat pressure is 105. Lift is 0.480" and 1.5 rockers. Over the nose force multiplied back to the cam is 460 pounds, but lifter radius vs [flat] lobe taper presents a proximal tangent - lets assume 0.090" x 0.090" area lobe presents to the lifter [if no oil], which is 0.008 square inches. So... peak load area has 57,500 psi working against the oil. Most break in oils are in the 46,000 to 52,000 range from what I can discover which means the user is relying almost entirely on the zddp package to carry the load with little margin. Is that smart? There's some old 16mm film converted to digital on yt somewhere showing Ford engine plants only did a 10 minute run-in. Maybe they knew something? A product designed to increase wear through reduced protection needs an absolute max run time limit, not a minimum. In that light, builders taking out inner springs for initial run are maybe doing a fan dance to survive their break-in oil? Seems to me that if surface ra on lifters and lobes is satisfactory [sub 40], the only parts truly in need of burnishing are the rings.

[@OwhyeeVdub]

@yarrdayarrdayarrda This is just one example of a set of springs needed for the high lift camshaft you can choose. O.D. - 1.445" Inner I.D. - 0.775" Seat Pressure @ 1.800 installed height - 200 lbs. Open Pressure @ .650 lift - 460 lbs. Coil Bind at 1.100" Spring Rate - 393 lbs. / in. Depending on the application taller lift valves and springs can be purchased to achieve the desired lift. These rates start with the use of a 1.11 rocker. You can also go with 1.25, 1.4, and 1.5 from the everyday VW part store. 1.6 and 1.7 can also be purchased from racing shops. So I'd say the spring pressure can easily match any American build.

[@yarrdayarrdayarrda]

@@OwhyeeVdub Fair point however in terms of stock or near stock, the springs are still quite light. It also looks like the lifters are of a mushroom design with a 28 MM contact face whereas the GM lifters are only 21.38 MM.

[@OwhyeeVdub]

@yarrdayarrdayarrda one thing to keep in mind. The lifters also do half the work. Any camshaft in a V8 engine has one lifter per cam lobe. In an air-cooled engine, the lobe works 2, one on each side. Twice the workload, double the spring downforce. So the abuse my build goes through to achieve any range of rpm is more abusive. These VW builds can achieve 7000 with no problem for a street application. Far more for a 1/4 drag engine.

[@pontiac411]

2.2 There is a KZbin video on how to deck a block and keep the numbers. Should be obvious but i guess not.

[@kens8311]

Can't deck the block and retain the factory stamping on a sbc

[@goldsgarage8236]

My MS was not willing to try. AG

[@jims2286]

Why don't you have a used cam regrouped to 30 30 specs my friends that built engines never had a reground cam go flat but had many aftermarket cams go flat!!!

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks for the suggestion Jim. AG

[@jack-nv3ty]

Well I’m going to just stick to the boring LS engines. They work more power for the money. I’m cheap and after doing a LS swap in my Jeep jk with just a 5.3 with 250,000 I was very happy with the power. It would be easy though to build a SBC roller just get a Vortec block.

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks Jack, all good points.AG

[@richardfehr1838]

Duntov had nothing to do with the 30-30 cam. His contribution was the 097 solid cam used in the hot 283s. The 30-30 cam was designed by GM engineers.

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks for the info richard.AG

[@yarrdayarrdayarrda]

That cam should be world's better than the soggy factory cam in terms of drivability.

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks Yarrda, sure sounds like it.AG

[@shawnbins203]

Comp Cams sucks. They have for years. They’re in this for the money. They don’t care. Years ago they took over all the advertising in the magazines. Every engine build used Comp and they drove the market. They knew years ago about lifter failures. Didn’t do much about it. Would not Warranty my failed cam. That’s when I was DONE with them.

[@goldsgarage8236]

Thanks for watching and commenting Shawn.AG