How To Know When Your Saddle Is Too Far Forward

[@Stratulax]

Dude! I could listen to him spew bike fit knowledge all damn day! So much knowledge and just makes so much sense, once you hear him say it, you're like, well, yeah, of coarse! Many, many thanks, once again!

[@adammillsindustries.]

Shame Neil is off the thread. Best bike fit advice on KZbin.

[@robvtec]

Thanks to this I adjusted 3mm back and the increase in comfort is immense. I was getting minor sores in the old position but they've vanished. Thank you.

[@rrluthi1]

I'm not sure if it's the same for everyone, but for me I can instantly feel when the seat is too far forward, my body wants to stretch back naturally and I can even feel pretty accurately where I want the saddle to move to, based on my sit-bones relationship to the curve of the saddle. I suppose if you are using a flat saddle, it may not feel as clear. The hamstring burning that Neil mentions is another big giveaway.

[@roadcyclingacademy]

Interesting to hear. Thanks for sharing on the thread Rudy.

[@yislam786ify]

Brilliantly explained. Thank you. Exactly I'm having this problem, moved seat forward to reduce reach but only caused more problems, mostly arm pain. Looking to get a shorter stem. Thank you

[@markusandersson1309]

Yeah you should never adjust reach by moving the saddle forward, adjust correctly with a shorter stem is the way to go! :)

[@davealston3881]

Outstanding humble and concise !

[@gerrysecure5874]

Couldn't measuring the weight distribution front/rear give a good idea to adjust saddle position ? If yes, what should it be ?

[@xBALL3R]

hey! maybe you can touch on the topic of feet length, and how it relates to bike fit. eg i am 183cm and have small feet size 41.5 so i am forced to move my saddle all the way forward and ride 0 offset seatpost. thanks :)

[@none5035]

When viewed from the side, if a curved saddle is used, the sitting position is limited and sensitive to the fore-and-aft position of the saddle, but if a flat saddle is used, the sitting position is relatively free, so it is not significantly affected.

[@arifazhari7598]

My case exactly, i use pro stealth curved. It was heck to set the set back

[@orangeorphan]

Wow, a 3mm window? That’s so fine tuned. No wonder I can’t find the perfect geometry on my own.

[@thisandthatandotherthings]

If you get out of the saddle then you are no longer engaging with a too far back/forward saddle so I think the reference is meant to be where the saddle is relative to your pelvis when you are stomping on the pedals sprinting above it ?

[@yannickokpara4861]

If you maintain the position except for moving the saddle, it means the reach must be reduced. Therefore, CoG shifts back.

[@__marshie]

Hunt for the 3mm zone begins! 😓

[@willwilling4728]

I have two bikes a tri bike with a ISM saddle and road bike with with a Bontrager saddle both saddles cause saddle sores in the crease between my legs and my private parts. Also on my road bike it took 600 miles befoe my triceps stopped hurting? Is there anything I can do to stop the abrasion cause by these saddles? Thanks

[@none5035]

In my case, I use a zero offset seatpost because the inseam is too small. If the saddle is pushed backwards, the angle of the hips is reduced so much that it is difficult to breathe. Instead, use a flat, long saddle and change positions frequently. Of course, the cleat setting is also pushed all the way back.

[@escamunicha4276]

Reduced crank length can reduce hip impingement on the top of the stroke. Its a must for short inseams

[@R0b3ert]

​@@escamunicha4276 Yeah, but this not a cheap change, when you have Ultegra, or Dura Ace crankset, with power meter😢

[@Tasha451308]

I've had upper back/shoulder/arm fatigue for the last few years and it's really deterred me from riding when I used to ride 100mi per week, it's really sad 😫

[@EnigmaticAnomaly]

What's a possible solution for a rider with long legs and arms, but a short torso? It's a problem I have. If I'm balanced, the seat it rather far back, but I'd need a 80mm stem; it feels fine when seated, but anything out of the saddle (sprinting for example) and I feel the stem is way too short, and come close to contacting the bar with my knees.

[@tofuguru941]

What about if it's too far back? I'm 6'4 on a 60cm cyclocross bike that I use for gravel and road biking... they have slightly different geometry from a strict road bike... I find myself never being able to find a true/perfect position. I'd say my limb lengths, torso lengths are all proportionate (in other words, I'm not 6'4 with long arms/legs short torso, or short legs long torso... I'm proportionate). In order to get full leg extension... I extend my seat post fully at its limit. Maybe 1cm passed it actually. Not only that, but I have to slide my saddle all the way back for a bit more leg extension, and reach (Since if I keep the saddle neutral or forward, I feel cramped up front). I even have a 110mm long stem. The position this puts me in.. gives me a feeling of kicking forward while my femur bones are too close to my torso (which doesn't allow me to put out as much power... although it puts me in a more aero position). Issue is... If I shorten the stem... I'm cramped. If I slide seat foward... I'm cramped. If I slide seat post down... legs don't get extension. I think I've come to the conclusion that my frame just isn't enough for me... Gotta go full road bike, maybe a 61cm. Thoughts from anyone? Looking for all the ideas I can get...

[@tn9274]

interesting to know that kinda counter intuitive. too far forward then more heavy on the front end instead the reach become shorter then should be lighter front end.

[@frapalapachino123]

I find it also difficult to get the seat far enough forward for tall riders ~2m. Too many bike manufacturers have pretty slack seat tube angles and there are not really any good options to get the seat forward enough in some cases. Maybe I have shorter legs too...

[@roadcyclingacademy]

Depends on the bike and seat but in some case you can purchase different rails that enable more flexibility there. Cam

[@baribari600]

@@roadcyclingacademy ISM saddles are great for people who need to slam their saddles forward.

[@xBALL3R]

might look at the lapierre aircode i ride it in size m because of it 74 deg seat angle seat angle stays at 73.5 even for xxl

[@artorepo2938]

I use rotated 20 mm offset round seatpost with slack 72.5 seat tube angle. Works well for me.

[@johnd1561]

I find the way I know my seat is too far forward is my foot engages the pedals at the arch, and when I move it back, it engages at the ball, which results in more power.

[@richardggeorge]

Love the BH. Aweome underrated bikes.

[@nodaklojack]

My hamstrings are never sore. I have never been sore from anything ever. They are very, very tight, always have been. Have never been anywhere close to touching my toes. No matter what adjustments I make, I can never seem to ever feel my hamstrings engage. It's always just lots of quad or less quad that I feel.

[@livibam]

I naturally move forward.. been riding a 00mm setback for years now. Long back & short legs.

[@grantmcalpine6364]

If you happen to lose flexibility, do you feel you'd want to move more forward. It seems like that would make sense. Great videos as always.

[@donkorleone20]

How does the saddle position make a difference when I'm out of the saddle sprinting?

[@andrewgrant3470]

So Neil, I believe that when you. Change the fwd aft of the seat you also need to change the height. So if you move the seat aft it needs to go down and if you need to move it fwd it needs to go up? Is there a rough ratio to use for this? Say 6mm fwd means 3mm up? …… thoughts?

[@xBALL3R]

Yes, but totally depends on the shape of your saddle.

[@roadcyclingacademy]

Assuming the height is perfect to begin with, going forward 5mm usually involves raising the seat around 1-3mm in my experience, and vice versa with going backwards. It's highly variable though and there are sufficient numbers of people out there who are outside of these ranges to make this a pretty sketchy generalisation at the best of times! - Neill

[@io8787]

Maybe a stupid question…but what if arm/neck pain occur on easy days while it is not there on hard rides/race day? I have been experiencing this issue with different position a bit more race-oriented..in particular, I have the feeling that on active recovery/really easy rides I do not engage sufficiently the core and I do not push ‘enough’ on the pedals, thus overcharging my arms and shoulders….while on hard rides/race everything is perfect and pedalling feels round and smooth..what to do in this case?

[@johnunruh1086]

I have the same issue! Please help

[@kimwarner6050]

Stem to long

[@davidc352]

When pushing hard on the pedals, you are actively unweighting your upper body. That's why you feel uncomfortable on your easy days (which means your fit is not optimal)

[@Wasatchwatts]

I relate more with the too far back issues but still have too much weight on my hands..

[@jayromasanta8072]

have you resolved the weight on your hands?

[@Wasatchwatts]

@@jayromasanta8072 I ended up going more forward than ever on both road and gravel bikes, bars cannot be too low. When I start to get pain it’s because I’m not engaging my core. Do some pushups and the ab wheel every other day and it goes away.

[@iceguy8112]

Hi Josh I wish I can get fitting from you here!

[@ProWeAreSo]

What we'd need to discuss is short femurs. If we use KOPS (as a starting point), someone with short femurs needs a considerable amount of saddle forwardness to meet the equivalent of that of someone with long femurs

[@phumeoli]

On point.

[@ivanyhtang]

Another brilliant video! With respect to the last point to change to a shorter stem to change the reach, how short is too short? Is 50mm acceptable for a gravel bike doing 50/50 road/gravel? Cheers!

[@colecoleman1499]

I have the shortest available. Not a problem

[@roadcyclingacademy]

It depends on the head angle, and fork rake/trail as each bike is individual, but with most gravel bikes 50mm is no problem, especially when paired with a wide bar which gives heaps of steering input leverage! - Neill

[@ivanyhtang]

@@roadcyclingacademy thanks!! Neill the bikefitting legend!

[@ivanyhtang]

@@colecoleman1499 great to know! Thanks Cole

[@robertmcfadyen9156]

The downside of integrated bar / stem units is apparent .

[@useport80]

as a starting point, would you recommend moving the saddle fore as much as possible or move it aft as much as possible? then slowly move it fore/aft 5-10mm

[@ShadowzKiller]

The best place is the middle of the sail rails. If you go to one extreme or the other, the saddle tilt can be very quite challenging, because the saddle may tilt up or down excessively when too far back or forward.

[@ShadowzKiller]

Thank you ! Could you please provide a quick comment regarding inclines since this one was mentioned in the other video of the saddle being too far back? In other words, will it feel difficult/easy to go up or down hills?

[@roadcyclingacademy]

I didn't mention it because if the seat is too far forward you won't have any major trouble as the road tilts upwards - you'll still be well over the top of the pedals on the power phase of the stroke and it won't present much of a problem at all. - Neill

[@ShadowzKiller]

@@roadcyclingacademy Ok, thank you very much for your reply.

[@jerrydixon9865]

Roughly 85% or maybe more have the seat slam too far forward at every race I’ve ever attended. If you looked at the bio-mechanics of that pedal stroke people aren’t even applying pressure to the pedals until 3 o’clock most times….

[@standekoster4291]

I honestly struggle to understand that you can notice your saddle being too far forward when you are riding out of the saddle 4:45

[@Andrew-st5nw]

Great. How about sharing how to measure for proper fore aft fit to start and adjust from there?

[@TubePut]

Can sliding forward on the saddle also be a sign of a saddle that is too far forward?

[@martinpaul9880]

thanks very much for your vids Neil - much appreciated 🙂 Over the years, my saddle has edged its way forward - i feel i can generate more power with it forward. Is that generally true? I saw your UK counterpart, Scherrit Knoesen, for a bike fit in March and he moved my saddle 4cm back!! Despite only doing easy riding, I immediately started getting old medial left knee pain which i don't get with the saddle further forward...so i moved it back to the forward position. I'm pretty lightweight but i am aware that i'm probably slightly overloading my arms and it's probably contributing to a bit of trap tightness but it's felt like the "right" position for me....I've been doing some knee / anterior chain strengthening work (as i've invested 10 years in posterior chain stuff!) and was thinking of experimenting with slowly edging my saddle back....any words of advice? what do you think about being able to generate more power with saddle further forward? is that why time-triallists are often sitting on the nose of the saddle? many thanks and be well 🙂 martin

[@roadcyclingacademy]

Hey Martin, sorry Neill is no longer on the thread, but thanks for the comment. Cam

[@Galaxieguy428]

Has Neil done a foot pain video. Got some outside foot pain going on now.

[@roadcyclingacademy]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/f4S8qWOioaqnnc0 yes

[@devinmorrison7131]

What about Adam Hansen?

[@darinsteele7091]

adam hansen was a total freak, his seat was like 2 degrees down too slammed all the way forward, but he worked a lot on core strength and spent a ton of his life on the bike to handle it, theres no way a normal human can handle his old setup.

[@gregorymartino4561]

I think there is a lot of helpful information from these guys, however, I think not enough attention is looked at regarding foot size when setting up your bike fit. foot size plays a major role in cleat setup, saddle height, whether you pedal toe down or heal down will make a major difference in cleat fore and aft position. anyway, thank you

[@pagey007]

Integrated bars , So over rated expensive and non adjustable , Makes resale of the bike more difficult , Great vids on seat fore/ aft 🙂

[@kokonanana1]

The saddle on the yellow Factor is all the way forward!!

[@gideonnaude1496]

When will you start causing pain on shins?

[@christopherrichards387]

As you get fitter/ more flexible would you want to move the seat forward or backward?

[@ultimatist]

You have more option to move backward, cause your body can fold over easier. Doesn't mean you want or need to though.

[@tonypowers123]

Amen! God Bless you! Knowledge and experience. If we want to learn,( and ride pain free) we must listen and apply. Thank you for educating us ❤

[@jamesmckenzie3532]

Thinking my saddle is too far forward as I end up with severe triceps issues after three hours or more of riding. I'll look into moving the saddle 5mm back.

[@irenes1983]

hi james, how did it went?

[@jamesmckenzie3532]

@irenes1983 Didn't move the saddle, but where I was sitting. Issue has gone.

[@ryankenner]

I have the SMP dynamic on my bike. I recently angled it down approx 14mm as you have mentioned in one of your videos. It feels much better now. I did notice that my weight is often on the nose of the saddle and I feel the seat is too far back. I am already using a zero-offset seatpost and the seat is almost slammed forward. Would a solution be to move the seat forward the remaining centimeter (and lower) and subsequently enlarge the stem to keep the reach the same? what other issues could make it feel like the seat is too far back?

[@JohnnyRabbitQC]

1.If your saddle is too far forward, you might be overloading your quads and they are pulling you forward. It's counterintuitive but more setback and a lower saddle will help engaging your glutes and keep you well balanced. 2.If your saddle is too high, you will skate towards the nose of the saddle to shorten your legs. 3.If your stem is too long it can have the same effect. To properly identify the problem I would reset the SMP saddle position in the middle of the rails since you have a zero offset seatpost first. I have the Dynamic as well and the number 4 on the rails corresponds to the middle. 1. Check if you need arch support in your shoes 2. Reassess cleat placement 3. Set you bike on a trainer or go for a ride and set saddle height. 4. Fit a shorter stem if you have one. I do this and I find it helps me focus on how the position of the saddle feels in the next step. 5. Do the balance test to set your seat setback. Check Steve Hogg website on seat setback. 6. If you feel cramped after all of the above is good to go, put a longer stem by 10mm increments only. 7. Handlebar height is a tricky one but start with the highest setting on your steerer and go down from there until you are comfortable, relaxed shoulders and not too much weight on your hands. Your can also film yourself, sometimes it's easier to see what's wrong with the position on video. I'm not a bikefitter but this is what I do for myself with all I've learned on this channel so far.

[@nationsnumber1chump]

Seems like you can have a seat farther back with longer cranks to get the smoother rotation? Thoughts or just confusing? Lol

[@roadcyclingacademy]

I'll leave this Q to Neill Sheldon. Assuming he can get to it. Cheers, Cam

[@escamunicha4276]

seat to the back with longer cranks will increase hip impingement.

[@discbrakefan]

@@escamunicha4276 Yep, this wouldn’t work for me. I have short cranks and the seat relatively far forward (despite having very long legs)

[@johnboyginger]

This is why integrated bars and seat posts that cannot be adjusted have no benefit other than lining the pockets of the manufacturers.

[@EverythingWasGreat]

I want to take it even further. This is why bikes shouldn't come as complete builds. I dont want to pay for a super expensive frameset or a complete bike with too wide bars, too much offset on the seatpost, to long cranks, to long stem, crappy wheels and saddle.

[@cameronALR6]

But if you know your fit already and are not tinkering, what’s the downside?

[@johnboyginger]

@@cameronALR6 bodies and fitness/flexibility changed over time plus injuries; all of which will require ongoing slight changes to fit.

[@CyclingPrecision]

​@@EverythingWasGreat too* long.

[@brianmcg321]

100%

[@ajbarnes777]

For me personally, I believe the diagnosis is too forward because my thighs are FRIED during rides flat or climbs! lol. Just moved it back a few mm, can't wait to test it out in the AM. Thanks for the helpful vid.

[@SpriteHide]

Relatively easy to assemble kzbin.infoUgkxMesz3KOGEmwmvyKQfLfrRSUXLFzfVHZA (note that is does not come with tools, so please have a set of hex/Allen keys and Phillips screwdriver handy). The bike weighs 27 lbs fully assembled, which is not bad.A couple quirks about the bike:- left brake lever operates the front brake (something to get used to if controlling the front brake with your right hand is what you usually do)- Shimano thumb shifters for the gears are positioned close to the center. This is a bit of a nuisance because changing gears involved taking your weight from one hand to change gears, a hassle if you are regularly changing gears. However, gear shifters positioned at the drop bars are very expensive compared to thumb shifters, so I can understand, given the price of the bikeBike is otherwise of good quality. Gears change fairly smoothly and fit/assembly is of good quality. A totally competent product for the price.

[@IamSpiders]

Don't really understand how the seat being too far forward affects your out of seat efforts? you're not sitting anymore? Wouldn't you end up in the same position regardless of seat position?

[@DR_1_1]

You can not understand this kind of things, you need to feel them. Imagine having to jump starting on your knees or sitting bottom on the ground vs an Indian squatt position.

[@savagepro9060]

" . . . Your Saddle Is Too Far Forward . . ."

[@Jefs-Aerial-Lens]

Why do many pro cyclists nowadays slam their saddle all the way to the front (as mush as UCI allows them to)? I understand this would open up their hip but wouldn't this be way less efficient as their hamstrings are not engaged and all of their power has to be produced by their quadriceps? I experimented with a more forward saddle as well and my quads started burining a lot faster while my hamstring were perfectly fine.

[@darinreisenauer453]

Cleat position and shoe fit. They wear shoes that FIT. Ball of foot inside the shoe is more forward (relative to the cleat mounting holes) than in a shoe that's too big. This effectively "moves the cleats back" on the shoe, shortening your legs(for the same ankle posture). Moving the saddle forward ALONE effectively "lengthens" your legs, which could explain your experience with unfamiliar/unbalanced muscle fatigue?

[@sturdyvw]

Most powerful position is far forward and up high. This engages the glutes. Engaging the hamstrings is the opposite of what you want.

[@ceftx2375]

Well, fine, now I have an urge to move the saddle back a few mm's just to see how it feels. 🤔

[@amjan]

I think much of this related to hamstring work is only relevant when your feet are fixed to the pedals. So not relevant for normal bike riders.

[@ds6914]

Surely you're saddle position's irrelevant when you're out the saddle?

[@IwNouko]

Great video, but for those, like me, not have english as native language, understanding problems may arise. A general picture was ok, thank you. Maybe you write down the wording and we can copy-paste for translation?! Kalimera from Greece.

[@5amba]

that stem tho xD

[@purpleaki7135]

Great content but too loquacious for me to sit and watch the whole thing.

[@evdb7246]

Interesting, I find 100% the opposite. Too far forward for me means 100% hamstring/glutes and lack of quad engageent

[@jimmyhor78]

Same here. Too far back always burns up my quads and reduces glute engagement.

[@ShadowzKiller]

@@jimmyhor78 Probably means your seat is too high because quads are over engaged and the glutes are turned off, but then again some people experience the opposite in the crazy world of bike fitting :)

[@hendipray1016]

Your saddle is too high.. Quads always do extra extension & work if the saddle is too high, and your glutes off power because they were busy stabilizing your pelvis.. On correct saddle height, if your saddle too far forward, your quads burning.. Too far back, your hamstring got strained..

[@YuriThorpe]

Call me crazy but the audio is out of sync

[@donwinston]

That middle saddle has Peyronie's disease.

[@roadcyclingacademy]

The old BH in the background (my bike) has the same seat with a single layer of sheepskin glued over the top to provide some extra grip. It's awesome if you're 60kg, super stable and your position is well balanced! - Neill

[@MichaelJulio]

1st

[@EwanSupple]

"saddle may be too far forward...if you're out of the saddle and rear wheel is jumping from power/weighting" Has nothing to do with the saddle position, lmao.

[@bluntsnhalo]

Can you get to the point more quickly in your videos and then explain? Thanks.

[@gasken2182]

Absolutely garbage. All of this was just said for clicks

[@user-cx2bk6pm2f]

He calls clients "patients"? This guy is full of himself. He moves bicycle seats up and down but equates that to being a doctor. 😂

[@roadcyclingacademy]

Hey spud, I'm a sports physiotherapist and we call our customers patients.

[@busking9113]

Absolutely no way is “this guy full of himself”. Clearly Neill is a passionate, dedicated expert who is trying to help people… for free as well. Pretty humble actually, thanks for all your work Neill & Cam

[@orangeorphan]

Wow, a 3mm window? That’s so fine tuned. No wonder I can’t find the perfect geometry on my own.

[@IwNouko]

Great video, but for those, like me, not have english as native language, understanding problems may arise. A general picture was ok, thank you. Maybe you write down the wording and we can copy-paste for translation?! Kalimera from Greece.