How to mic a grand piano - Sound Advice 07

[@collinschoral]

I love the sound you get from those PZM's! Based on your recommendation, I have purchased some of my own for the piano in our sanctuary. I am still an audio novice, so having your board settings would teach me a lot. I know I will need to experiment with our particular instrument, worship space, board, player, etc., but I would like to use your processing settings as a starting point. Would you be willing to reply with the settings you use for each of these? I'm sure I won't be the only one to find it helpful! * Gain: * Frequency/Low cut: * Polarity (Ø): Invert for one, but not both, correct? * Gate: * Compressor: * Dynamics: * Equalizer: "Brighten" between 2,000-4,000 Hz. How much? What else? * Effects: * Pan/Balance: Thanks in advance!!

[@audiobuff]

Drew, a great question! We will answer this in 2 posts. I will take the approach from live sound-Front of House, and Jonathan will look at the recording/broadcast mix (here’s a behind-the-scenes look at the broadcast control room kzbin.info/www/bejne/a6ime6inj6tqb9U). We might be able to get Joe’s (piano player) input in the differences between pianos. Every venue has its own ecosystem and it’s all dependent on the type of sound system, style and needs of music and speech, room acoustics, style of instruments, and the ear of the sound tech. I love epic music, and tend to mix and EQ that way. When it comes to the piano, the sound I love is not a natural acoustic representation, even though most people would say it is. I want to feel the bottom register, but equally need the upper mids for the pitch reference and brightness. The acoustic piano tends to be naturally mid heavy. The two pianos on our platform are miked and tuned to that instrument’s sound and style. In our church, we have a Altec Lansing center cluster that hits every seat that has a clear line of site with the cluster. In addition, we have left and right Altec Lansing speakers that add a spatial stereo sound the center cluster lacks. And, we have 2 dual Altec Lansing 18” subs for the “epic” feel. I mix and EQ the pianos to help lead the congregational singing, so I look for a bright but percussive sound. The stereo mics are routed to the left and right speakers respectively and summed to the center cluster (which is tuned brighter than the left and right). EQ: HPF-60HZ, LF shelf-70Hz/+1.3 dB, LM-294Hz/0.9 Q/-3.5dB, HM-1.65kHz/0.6 Q/-3.5dB, HF-4.36kHz/0.7 Q/-2.4 dB. Compression: 3:1 Ratio, -1.5dB Threshold, 4.60ms attack, 500ms Release. Reverb: On the piano,I use a brighter reverb with a 1.5 second decay. I have the reverb in the left and right speakers only. I do not use any gates in live sound. Both mics are in normal phase.

[@scruggs.jonathan]

Hi Drew, On the recording-side here are the settings I use. Both mics have phase set to 0°. Gain: Same preamp as FOH HPF: Off unless needed for someone "thumping" the sustain pedal. Gate: Attack: 500μs Release: 1s Hold: Off/lowest time Threshold: Depends on your preamp level. I have it set at -28dB for our set-up. Depth: 20dB P-EQ: Band 1: 48hz shelf - 14dB Band 4: 2.5kHz shelf - 6dB Compressor: 16T Comp/Limiter Ratio: 1.5:1 Knee: Hard Threshold: Again, depends on your gain but we are at -12dB. Output Gain: 10dB Parallel Compression: On, -6dB Dry and -6dB Wet. My master output has the following: Compressor: Manual RMS Attack: 300ms Release: 2s Ratio: 4:1 Threshold: -15dB Gain: 18dB Knee: Hard Parallel Compression: Off

[@collinschoral]

Thank you both so much! Going to get these installed using Velcro per your rec, and going to start with these settings for our live and broadcast mixes!! Thank you for your ministry!!!

[@joemizer2841]

Joe here chiming in. To add to the discussion, every piano is different, sometimes even the same model from the same manufacturer. For instance, the piano in this video is a Kawai RX-6. At our college is a Kawai GS-60. They're very similar in size and of course manufacturer, but the two pianos sound absolutely nothing alike. In my experience, moving the mic(s) as little as an inch or turning a few degrees can make significant changes in the sound. You've come this far, so take it all the way by scheduling an hour or two with your main pianist, and have them just play while you move the mics until you get happy. Then take a 10 minute break, and then listen again to make sure you're happy. It may seem tedious, but it's definitely rewarding in the end!

[@scruggs.jonathan]

@@collinschoral Also, if you have access to a phasescope, use that as well as your ears to adjust the mic positioning. Pan the mics hard left and right and the scope can give you some helpful information. You want it anywhere between 0 and +1; 0 being a full stereo image and +1 being mono. If it goes into the negative, your mics are out of phase. If they are out of phase a little, it won't necessarily sound bad on a stereo recording but in a mono mix, the two mics will subtract different frequencies from each other rather than adding, which can lead to a hollow sound in mono. I hope to do a video explaining this in more detail with Jude. Here's a free one: www.voxengo.com/product/correlometer/

[@RickTheGreatestPosterEver]

No other video on this subject comes close to this one... it’s jam packed with so much valuable information.

[@audiobuff]

Thank you for the kind words-more videos to come!

[@DavidMalone74]

Good info here. Although I'm a trained musician and learning FOH guy, I had forgotten that I'm not primarily amplifying the strings but rather the resonance from the instrument. I have two excellent DPM mics that I'll incorporate from this thoughtful video. I've been struggling with this subject and your presentation has been a "duh" moment. Thanks for your efforts. To our Everlasting God, may we given undistracted excellence in our FOH work!

[@audiobuff]

I’m glad it was a help. I have those moments too. Thank you for watching and more to come…

[@codypirkle7113]

This video was helpful to our church! Thanks for the detail and insight.

[@audiobuff]

Thank you Cody! This mic continues to provides quality sound reinforcement on several new pianos since you responded.

[@rizon80]

Amazing video please keep up those informative videos and thank you 🙏🏼

[@excellenceinchurchmusic3170]

Thanks for the mention! Very helpful information!

[@audiobuff]

Any time!

[@SecondBaptistPC]

Thanks so much Jude! This is exactly the information we were looking for!

[@audiobuff]

Glad it was helpful!

[@dwightshumate7614]

The information in this video is exceptional. I'm thinking about getting a PZM for our grand piano and I am wondering if a single mic solution would work until I can afford a 2nd mic? Thanks

[@audiobuff]

I used one on the piano for 15 years and did just fine. Thank you for watching!

[@SimonAZ]

I have 2 boundary microphones (Audio Technica type AT841R) as well and would like to try out your approach. However I am affraid they will not allow me to put tape on the grand piano. Usually I put them in front of the piano on the church floor and I am not fully satisfied with the result of the recording. For a small ensemble this works great however for piano solo I know it could be better.

[@peroidsteroids3050]

Hello! Great video!! I've got a pair of KSM44A's and would try it out ;). By the way, what song is this? Thanks!

[@audiobuff]

I’ve used the KSM32 and 44 in a recording studios. A very nice sound! The song Joe is playing is the theme song I use in the video intro and outro. It’s by Ian Post who makes a lot of music for content creators. I’ll try to find the name of the song.

[@peroidsteroids3050]

​@@audiobuff Thanks very much!! I am experimenting with microphones now on my school's Fazioli F308, recording some of my pieces with it. I felt this piece in the video sounded really nice in the video, so I was just wondering. No rush! Have a great day ;)​

[@WayneConnor]

This is great. How come the Velcro doesn’t dampen the vibrations? Also on a location where you do not own the piano have you got a temporary way to mount the mics?

[@MarkLedfordMusic]

This is a huge help! I would be interested in a video explaining the use of ambient mics - placement, processing, etc. Thanks!

[@audiobuff]

That’s a great idea, I’ll add it to my list of videos! Your talking about ambient mics in the room picking up the audience, correct?

[@MarkLedfordMusic]

@@audiobuff Yessir.

[@mikepruett1745]

good stuff mine is hard and making a funny compressed sound looking diff location ty

[@audiobuff]

Thank you for watching the videos-more to come!

[@godbeforeme]

Are your mains speakers in stereo? We run mono in our church as we only have a center speaker stack. Thanks for the great information.

[@audiobuff]

For the first 15 years of myself running sound, we had a center cluster (mono) only. About 5 years ago I added a left and right cluster and that is when I started playing with a left/right and summed mono sound. Also that is when I added a second mic to the pianos. Our primary sound still comes from the center cluster (mono), but the L&R add a nice spacious sound. Hope this helps-thank you for the kind words!

[@godbeforeme]

@@audiobuff Thanks for the reply. I’d like to move to a Stereo setup or at least put in some stereo fills like you did. I still feel like having 2 mics will help get a broader more even spread of the piano rather than just a 2-3 octave range that is picked up well and lack the rest.

[@DG-ss1gc]

I dream to make a piano , maybe a church would fund my project. But it would essentially be a mechanically enhanced piano. The strings would be much larger and re-engineered in order to hit the correct pitches , but they would much , much larger. Simply imagine shooting a piano with a shrink ray set to reverse so the piano is larger in every way, except the keyboard of course , the action would be enhanced so that they would strike the keys with equivalent force. The idea is to make a piano capable of using both in outdoor amphitheaters, stadiums, and would just blow the lid off a large music hall like radio city….

[@audiobuff]

What a cool idea. If you ever make this happen, I want to see and hear it!

[@2bescenecom]

Alhh Velcro that’s what I’m missing!! Thank you

[@audiobuff]

The Velcro is way better than putting screws into he piano lid - hanks for watching!

[@paparaphatv]

With your help, I have gained great wisdom in miking the piano. Thank you. I have 1 PZM microphone. The other one has the AUDIX SCX 25A. The PZM mic panned left toward the hammer, and the AUDIX mic was contemplating where to place it. I want to buy one more PZM microphone, but I want to use the AUDIX microphone. Can you help?

[@audiobuff]

Thanks for watching! I’m not familiar with the Audix mics. I would try pointing it over the bridge of the piano. But I fear you will get a much different sound from that mic. The PZM mic is a different sound from regular mics. Let me know what type of sound you get. I’m very curious.

[@paparaphatv]

@@audiobuff Thank you for answer. "bridge of the piano" Where exactly is this part? (High note?) on the keyboard of the right hand please

[@audiobuff]

@@paparaphatv the bridge is where the strings touch the wood. About 3:40 in the video.

[@paparaphatv]

@@audiobuff OMG! Thank you so much. Coud you give me email address? I would like to receive feedback by sending my miking recordings. :)

[@paparaphatv]

How to buy belcro? Good idea your idea! Thank you

[@audiobuff]

I get the Velcro from hardware stores or office supply stores. Thank you for watching!

[@timothyhaynie6327]

I like the cranial lid prop trick, lol.

[@audiobuff]

Yea, until you drop the lid on your head. I’ve done that. Thank you for watching - more to come.

[@josephal-batati8061]

I have been attending the church for years and have never seen the mics. That’s a well hidden and non standout mic

[@audiobuff]

Thanks for the comment and noticing how we mic the pianos!

[@nao1999]

Do not touch piano strings.