How to Record Grand Piano -- Earthworks PM40 PianoMic

[@soundpurestudios]

@Fichtezxc Thanks or the comment! Honestly, we were shocked... we knew it would sound good/passable, but we were not expecting something this simple to sound so incredible. It's making us rethink how difficult recording a piano needs to be!

[@phoenixrising1576]

I wish there was a poor mans alternative. Fantastic sound and playing though.

[@davidiliyn]

that seriously sounds amazing, i have been using a handful of different mics at my church to mic our grand, and have never been able to archive a sound anywhere close to this truly amazing

[@dollarwil1234]

Lid closed was amazing, not boxy at all. It brought up the low-end fundamentals which made the piano sound more intense. I generally hate the closed lid sound.

[@soundpurestudios]

@thrillscience Great question. We appreciate your excellent comment, perception, and support of all that we are doing here. Keep up the great work. ;)

[@soundpurestudios]

It's undeniable that piano samples have improved over the years, and for some applications they're probably good enough. One of the main problems remaining is a lack of expressiveness - a great pianist is able to get more than just various different volumes out of a single key depending on how it's played. There's a whole other level of interaction between a great player and a great instrument. That is what's still lacking with samples, and why we still find it worth while to mic a real piano.

[@soundpurestudios]

@Edside0 Well, we only use the tube pre towards the end, and honestly, it wasn't saturing as much as it could hvae saturated. Honestly, out of most microphone systems, this is one of the most neutral, accurate, and truthful piano mic systems out there... for ease-of-use it can't be beat. The great thing is that as you have mentioned, you CAN color the microphones with a preamp, but the mics themselves are all about truth and accurate representation.

[@soundpurestudios]

The truly best part about them is that they are easy to use... and easy to recreate the great performance. You can get world class piano sounds in minutes. Sounds like sales BS, but it's the truth - it's why we keep around a collection in our studios, with all the mics that we have in the locker.

[@soundpurestudios]

Thanks. It really does sound great, and it was really easy to set up. On top of that, once you've found a great sounding position for these mics you can just leave them there permanently. Reposition the piano somewhere else in the room and you're mics are still exactly where they were, sounding as good as they did before. Try that with a pair of stand mounted condensers...

[@soundpurestudios]

@jlr430 Absolutely- the system works wonderfully in that capacity as well. Basically, the system works well in any application where you are looking for accuracy, detail, and precision in representing the instrument exactly as it sounds. If you are in a good room, the microphones can do a nice job also picking up the acoustics of a hall, or nice sounding room, but also performs well with the lid fully or only partially closed. The ease of using this system is incredible.

[@soundpurestudios]

@maestro2be on a well maintained piano there is minimal "swoosh" from the piano's action and this system is generally placed far enough from the dampers where the sound from the piano should drown out the "swoosh" of the hammer and damper movement - even on pianos that see less than stellar maintenance. The pedal noises are also far enough away from the actual placement of the microphones where they too will not be heard by the microphones [even if they are heard in the room].

[@soundpurestudios]

Well, it's a great idea for sure, but the actual microphones used on the kit are top notch Earthworks omnis, that even outside of the kit are not inexpensive. We'd be glad to give you a quote if you are interested in picking one up. You can see the setup, and request a quote on our webpage, which is linked to on our product description in this video.

[@soundpurestudios]

You can position the microphones slightly further away from the hammers and dampers and reduce mechanical noise. But, any sensitive microphone near the instrument, will certainly pickup mechanical noises when recording the piano - this is why some people opt for recording piano with a much more rejective element such as a large diaphragm mic or ribbon - however, this subtlety, nuance, and detail is very desirable for a lot of engineers/musicians, and somewhat inherent in their nature.

[@soundpurestudios]

@gnrfanatic141414 It is the Sound Pure Steinway B 7-foot grand. These microphones really capture the essence of the instrument beautifully.

[@soundpurestudios]

@KwazyTwang No problem at all... if you want to try and identify a less expensive alternative, we can definitely help you out there as well, just let us know!

[@phoenixrising1576]

Hi is there a cheaper alternative to doing the same procedure but with an old German Kaps Upright? It has Great even but mellow tone. I have made my own poor mans DPA system from Primo omni,s and attach them near the sound board. Cheers, beautiful playing.

[@soundpurestudios]

@Sliem1998 No problem... keep fighting with what you have, you will likely contineu to improve the quality of recordings that you are able to achieve. That being said, serious recording gear, are the only way to tackle serious acoustic instruments when professional caliber results are the desired end game. Thanks for your comments and post!

[@soundpurestudios]

@Sliem1998 Guess this is your first encounter with professional microphones? No worries, but this is actually a pretty fair price for a stereo pair of truly professional-caliber microphones. Not everything that we sell costs this much, obviously, but this is a really excellent solution for professional recording and sound-reinforcement applications.

[@soundpurestudios]

In any of our videos featuring Todd Atlas on piano, it's actually just improvisation. Thanks for the love though!

[@soundpurestudios]

What would you recommend? The mics in this system are actually quite high end microphones, and to suggest that the cost of this system is merely tied up in a mounting system is absolutely ludicrous. The piano would benefit from additional microphones at a distance, but for musicians that don't have the luxury of a silent, great sounding room, this system is perfect.

[@soundpurestudios]

@l1lac123 Thanks for the comment. It is an incredible system- when you are ready Sound Pure is here to help!

[@soundpurestudios]

@remyleloup Thanks a lot Remy. It was pretty dazzling hoe much of a difference that the Sebatron made. The Earthworks really "soaked up" all of the tube coloration and saturation that the Seb provided, and we agree, it provided a ton of texture and warmth to the sound. Cool stuff... we were surprised to hear such a huge difference in this particular preamp change, but it was extremely obvious, and pretty fun to hear.

[@soundpurestudios]

Sorry dude... if the playback medium is a boombox or a laptop, perhaps you are right. While samples, keyboards, etc. improve, there is no substitute for a real acoustic instrument... not this decade, anyway. If you are satisfied, I suppose that's all that matters, but there isn't a serious professional pianist on the planet that is going to trade his Steinway B and Earthworks PM40 for a Roland Keyboard. And not any time soon. Touch, Tone, Sublety, Musicality - there's no substitute.

[@soundpurestudios]

@southflaboy18 Thanks, yes it is an extraordinary-sounding system that works on every grand piano we have tested it on, and in all rooms we have tried (in homes, and concert halls!) We would love to chat with you more about your exact configuration and determine what the best next move would be for you. The pieces were all improvisations, hope that you liked them!

[@soundpurestudios]

@PoonMusicProductions @PoonMusicProductions You can find pricing by searching PM-40 on the SoundPure website [there is currently a demo unit available for a good bit less than standard pricing] -- as for "cheapest" and "best"... its very rare that those two things go hand in hand. If you want to do it on the "cheap" you can probably get something for a couple hundred dollars - if you want to do it "best" - then you should plan on spending a good bit more.

[@soundpurestudios]

@KwazyTwang Pianos are universally difficult to record. Unfortunately, this Earthworks PianoMic system is designed to work with grands. Our video kind of erroneously mentioned "all pianos" but we are pretty sure that they intended this one primarily for grands... not sure how well it would work on an upright, but we would definitely check into it for you if you were interested.

[@soundpurestudios]

@PaulBartonPiano Hi Paul, The microphone system with no preamp has just had a price reduction now putting the system under $3000. While it is certainly not cheap it is an incredible solution, and an effective system on every piano out there. I think that this will solve your problem that you mentioned in your personal message, but we will reach out to you directly there.

[@urednik1]

Yes, of course PM 40 purpose is crystal clear to me it only lacks big time in the high end as far as this KZbin video has a noncorrupted audio. I know there is a bit loss in quality here, however it usually don't take away the essence. Big room is sure the best practice to record a F Horn, since it is entirely different as a trumpet. You never point the bell towards the audience - hence it should be taken in space and not at the bell only. However I surely will give Blumlein a try one day!

[@mrsean333]

These sound great. Like being in front of the keyboard! Nice!!

[@soundpurestudios]

@kinselgto01 It really wasn't designed with an upright in mind, as it is designed specifically for Grand Pianos. It is not inexpensive, but worth it for serious grand piano recording. That being said, if you need to record an upright, we can help! Whatever your recording needs are, we really are here to help in any way that we can!

[@soundpurestudios]

@Edside0 Our modern Steinway B is identifiably dark, mellow, rich and subdued... by its nature not a bright instrument like a lot of people are used to hearing on recordings.

[@soundpurestudios]

@jlr430 We have had incredible success using the system on classical as well, anywhere we want to record the instrument exactly as we are hearing it in the room- we would be glad to discuss the system in depth with you if you'd like, and specifically how we use it on classical performances (in terms of mic preamp pairing, a/d converters, etc). We do a huge variety of classical piano recordings with this system as well as with others on our Steinway B here at Sound Pure studios & in halls near us

[@soundpurestudios]

@cholapat Quite Honestly, it works exactly the same way with classical music- just an incredible easy, simple, and repeatable microphone system.

[@soundpurestudios]

Perfection for a piano recording will constantly be at odds with the playback environment - duff notes could happen with the piano, or with the mics, but a lot of times, it has more to do with the playback environment (bad converters, speakers, or even more common, a bad or imperfect acoustic environment) can create all sorts of problems that tarnish an otherwise great recording. You can get great gear for recording, and work closely with a tech, but playback will always be a factor.

[@KwazyTwang]

Nice. That would be handy. Trying to record an upright with one condenser is difficult. Even though it's a good mic.

[@soundpurestudios]

I honestly don't remember the "geometry" - it was a good while ago. The session was in the "A" room at Avatar in NYC, which is a fairly big, open room. I've recorded the instrument elsewhere as well - though the gigs were in professional caliber studios, and not a "home studio". Getting back on track - the PM40 isn't appropriate for French Horn, its appropriate for piano - hence the video. I'll be happy to get into more depth - but not here - give a call and we can sort it out for sure.

[@soundpurestudios]

@viceadmiraal61 Actually, these microphones are extremely accurate- our piano sounds exactly this way- it is a brand new Steinway B piano, and by the very nature of the instrument a dark and complex instrument- if the pinao was bright, these mics would give you exactly that- there are a very accurate representation of the instrument that they are used in front of, really.

[@KwazyTwang]

@soundpurestudios Great! Thanks a lot! I let you know when I'm ready.

[@soundpurestudios]

All good mate - I didn't say it wasn't a struggle... but it does get a whole lot easier with top flight tools and a top flight room. A very dear friend of mine has two Grammy's for best produced "classical" -- I've been advising him on his studio for 15+ years. I'm quite sure I could be of assistance to you as well should you decide to give a call. Peace

[@soundpurestudios]

@jlr430 I wish that we had something to send you... the reality is that because I (the in house pianist) have such rusty chops, I wouldn't attempt classical music on camera. That being said, we've used these extensively in that context, and they sound incredible, whether you are recording in a controlled studio, an uncontrolled home, or in a concert hall. I'd love to discuss the system more with you and determine if it's going to the optimum choice in your situation- want to give us a ring?

[@soundpurestudios]

@Piano0397 Thanks for the comment- we don't have one here at the studio, so it makes it a little difficult to pull off the video. But, if you would like, we can simply give you all the advice that we have on the topic over the phone, just give us a call!!

[@albertobellavia]

Thank you so much for your video , very good . Please , could you tell me which Are the best mic for recording grand piano ? I have Rode NT 2000 , Apogee 76 elements , mic - pre Neve Amek 9098 system. I have Yamaha C5 grand piano . Thank you in advance

[@mattwalsh9413]

That's a great-sounding piano. The mics do a great job at picking it up. It's a bit pricey, but how are you gonna do better than this? If you record a lot of piano it seems worth it.

[@soundpurestudios]

Thanks so much! Unfortunately, this is pretty much all we have of that particular recording... if you'd like we can always e-mail you the high resolution file, but it's going to be chopped up the same way that you are hearing it on this video...

[@soundpurestudios]

@jmanthirtyseven Thanks for saying so!

[@MbandiComposer]

How can you tell how good a mic performs when mostly chords are being played. Good mics shine when multiple notes are thrown at that them in rapid succession even if still playing soft and emotional

[@AlexosMusic]

what's the name of the song starting @ 0:12 ?

[@KwazyTwang]

@soundpurestudios Thanks for asking. I could probably do the research. I wouldn't want you to go through all that trouble just yet because I'm kinda low on funds. And it might be a while before I bought it from you. Thanks Again!

[@stuartpoltrock7325]

Wow. Just. Wow.

[@southflaboy18]

Very impressed. I have a three year old Yamaha C7 that i think this would pick up just beautifully. Just curious, what are some of the pieces you're playing in this demo?

[@soundpurestudios]

What sorts of "regular high end mics" cost a fraction of the price of this mic system? This set of mics is going to drastically outperform budget mics like SM81's, Rode NT5's, etc - there's just no contest. Also, not everyone can get great results from more traditional mics on booms - we have tons of customers with grand pianos in noisy environments like NYC apartments that need to isolate from sirens and car horns. Try that with the lid up and some SDC's on booms...

[@JuanDelgadomusic]

Great! What Piano brand and model is being recorded? that would be a great reference, thanks! JD

[@soundpurestudios]

@AlexosMusic Sorry, there is no name to the song, This was some of Todd's improvising in the moment.

[@gepinomus]

An amazing improvisation and sound piano and recording too

[@LeeBlaske]

Great sounding piano. Interesting to compare the sound of this microphone system to your other video of the same piano using the Peluso tube mics and the 1073 and Vintech clone. I do like the sound of these Earthworks mics, but your video with the Peluso mics really tops them, for me.

[@JordonRenn93]

AM I watching an infomercial? Kidding, this is pretty unique, I woould probably invest into this in the future

[@Sliem1998]

@soundpurestudios Yes this is indeed my first encounter with Prof microphones. I play the piano myself and was sick 'cause of the bad quality. Then I searched en searched en found this video, it was truly really good! But i'm just a kid that's 12 years old xD. Tough i find it unfortunate that I have not the equipment that I need. I make my own music and what I just want is to get the most of my piano and pc. Btw: Really helpfull info.

[@soundpurestudios]

Due respect, if you're not an audio engineer, if I told you I'd recorded French Horn with a pair of ELA M 251s in a Blumlein configuration through an NPNG QMP-4NW would it mean anything to you? I've also had brilliant success with an AEA R-88 as well as an RCA-44BX with Siemens V-76/80 amplifiers. There are as many ways to record a piano as there are pianos - the PM40 is an elegant solution when you have a restricted recording environment - it permits you to work fast - with workable results.

[@mrsean333]

I think it's actually the hammers I'm hearing when you take your fingers off the keys. Is there a way of eliminating this sound with this setup or is it inherent to the way the mics are physically coupled to the piano?

[@maestro2be]

How do you avoid the "swoosh" sound from the dampers leaving the strings and pedaling noises?  Does this system help prevent that from being in the recording? Those mics seem very close and on my grand would seem to be drown out by the "swoosh".

[@soundpurestudios]

@takupapa1217 Thanks for the comment- the Earthworks PM40 is an incredible solution when one is looking to create extremely high quality recordings, easily, in any environment, in a completely repeatable way.

[@scabycat]

Also , no matter which concert grand is played and no matter how much it has cost , I have recordings where I would absolutely SWEAR there are duff notes on certain pianos. For eg liberace " never on a sunday " -Baldwin or Oscar peterson " wheatland" - steinway or Artur Rubinstein Saint Saens piano concerto 3 - steinway. Perhaps though I should mention I am a little OCD and once I hear an imperfection it bcomes almost an obsession !! Perhaps I will NEVER be satisfied !!

[@wavetuning]

I'm usually using a matched pair of Neumann KM184 or RODE NT5 for my recordings on a Yamaha C6, but my major limitation is the room. Would this microphone concept be a solution for getting rid of unwanted reflections I get from my room?

[@urednik1]

I guess I can follow that so far. I use tripple AKG Solidtube with a standard stereo setting (low budget), however not directly by the bell - one is recording from the opposite site and the 3rd one is catching an enviromental sweet spot. I find it interesting to use a Blumlein config - have to give it a try one day, however could not find a room good enough yet. What I am more interested would be how exactly did you set it up geometrically and could you give me some audio samples? Thanks.

[@takupapa1217]

I did not think that I was able to confirm the demonstration of this mike on the net. I am making the recording system of a similar idea by oneself.

[@soundpurestudios]

@AlexosMusic Thanks so much!

[@mrsean333]

I did pick up what sounded like sustain pedal noise to me. Is this just due to a problem with placement or is it inherent in the physical coupling of the boom arm?

[@jmanthirtyseven]

Nice mic.. NICE piano

[@urednik1]

Yes French Horn. Look my question is simply what geometry (distances, angles) have you used to record it, and did you record it in a dry studio or have you done it in an acoustic room? Squalid, hehe ... I guess you are a bit right about the characteristics of it, however I somehow do not believe to any professional who claims such a product to be useless. I would rather say you were not able to find a fit for your needs. I am having good results with it (not that I am totally satisfied).

[@phoenixrising1576]

I love it and would buy it but way to expensive for me. Its sounds beautiful though and so does the playing.

[@Piano0397]

Can you do a video on recording an upright piano please

[@cholapat]

Any advice for classical repertoire recording using the microphones?

[@AlexosMusic]

@soundpurestudios ooh, sounds cool!

[@soundpurestudios]

@rabbidhedgehog Well, you know how the saying goes, you pay for what you get. There are certainly microphones that cost far more money than this that don't come anywhere near as close at reproducing the piano accurately, much less microphones that are so easy and repeatable to setup in any situation. It's a small price to pay if you are serious about your piano sound, especially when it's a central part of an album, or you have a serious amount of oney invested i your piano as we do!

[@soundpurestudios]

These types of microphones are not really coupled to the instrument- they inherently have basically no handling noise at all - same reason that the Earthworks QTC40's don't require a shockmount. As far as the mechanical noise, that will depend on the piano, and the pianist - these vary widely, but any microphone inside the piano will be closer to that mechanical noise. Honestly though, mics off the piano can pick this sort of thing up if they are sufficiently detailed and sensitive.

[@FreedomBeats]

Is there somewhere I can get the file of the piece at the end? Its beautiful.

[@darwinwallace77]

How does it compare to the Helpinstill?

[@urednik1]

Thanks for your input and willingness to discuss this per telephone, I just might call you one of this days, since I have to record a CD of music for F. Horn and piano. And sorry for being rude but I still think that statement of yours is fairly biased (I used to follow a lot of classical music recordings and have seen many experienced engineers to struggle with things, since I am a musician myself, so my viewpoint is very strong - however not professional ... ;)

[@soundpurestudios]

I guess we're still talking about French Horn? I can not provide any audio samples as I don't have a copy, nor do I think I could get a copy [the gig was like 5-6 years ago] and I doubt I could permission from the label even if the sample could be located. If you'd like to talk more about this I'm at 888-528-9703 ext1010 FWIW - on my worst day I would avoid a squalid tube for that application - horribly strident mic - something rounder sounding with a bit of air is a better tool for the job!!

[@PianoUniverse]

You can buy some very high end mics and mounts at a much better cost. Most of the money is in the novelty of the mounting bar it would seem.

[@soundpurestudios]

Thanks so much, will pass along the message to Todd - we've recorded a lot of drums with the Sebatron 4000, and most recently, overheads with the Axis (stunning). Please shoot me an e-mail, or call, and I can discuss your situation, and possibly shoot you some sound examples... you can e-mail me: Doug(at)SoundPure(dot)com, or call [phone]. Thanks for tuning in!

[@scabycat]

Well u r absolutely correct I'm afraid !! But technology is always on the march and the sound from some of these digital pianos is truly astonishing. For the price difference ( perhaps 170000.00 compared to 500.00 with a 300.00 laptop- how lomg can it be b4 more and more professionals are opting for the cheaper option? U cannot argue with " Blind " tests where so often a digital is mistaken 4 the real thing ( in some cases actually preferred ! )

[@PianoUniverse]

I would recommend people save a lot of money and buy regular high end mics and booms at a fraction of the 3k for this system.

[@soundpurestudios]

Really? ...are you sure it shows a "big lack of knowledge"? I've recorded French Horn many times, its no where near as complex an instrument to record as piano!! While a French Horn has a complex overtone structure, that overtone structure is far more structured than the complexity of properly capturing a piano. The Earthworks PM-40 is a very helpful tool for restrictive recording environments, its VERY unique!!

[@urednik1]

Now I do not want to teach anyone since I am not an audio engineer, however 99% of recordings of french horn of bassoon are problematic, since you need to catch a proper reflection and not the source only. On the other hand there are 90% of good recordings of a piano. Your recording of the GP however lacks the High-end though for classical music (thus it is not counted among the 90% in my opinion). Now honestly I would love to hear how you recorded a french Horn.

[@mrsean333]

Hi, thanks for the reply. I looked at another video of the same mic system here kzbin.info/www/bejne/aGikgo2AZd97qZY and there was a lot less hammer noise which would support what you were saying. These mics are really amazing!!

[@Achase4u]

While I am certainly impressed at how far the sampled pianos are coming with scripting etc, theres still no sub for the real deal. Just not yet.

[@soundpurestudios]

A badly recorded original, no matter how much you pay, can be out-performed by a set of modern day samples. But ask any pianist, the samples never respond the way an actual pianist plays - so, you will find yourself suffering not only tonal quality (if you can get yourself a decent instrument, and a nice set of mics and recording chain like the one that we used here), but you will also sacrifice the musicians musicality as it relates to the natural interplay of a harmonic instrument resonating.

[@thrillscience]

Why would you want to record that new-age noodling?

[@Sliem1998]

Haha, it costs $2,999.00 - That is more than my PC!

[@renejrhodes88]

No disrespect but why do all the people in Piano Videos play soft? I want to hear how the piano sounds on the mics when you hit it hard. Play a fast boogie or some Latin-Tumbaos. And I'm sorry but Scabycat's comment reflects my experience as well (checked on good speakers), at least for Music which is less acoustic like Pop, Rock etc. Not at least because the Samples from a good E-Piano are made with excellent Pianos and Recording techniques!

[@falconboy757]

It's $ 3,000 dollars :(

[@urednik1]

"piano is one of the most difficult instruments in the world to record" hahahaha. Has he got a chance to record a french horn yet? This statement shows a big lack of knowledge :(

[@scabycat]

For anyone who has spent perhaps £150000.00 on a concert grand piano and then another few grand on recording equipment , I have some very bad news!! I have a digital piano and a 10yr old imac computer. I record strieght from piano to computer then to disc. U professional people will laugh at this amateur set up yet I have had musicians with over 60yrs experience not be able to tell the steinway from the digital piano in blind tests !!