How to Spot Covert Abusers

[@swwagner1]

It seems to me, the problem with spotting a covert narcissist is that you have to be IN a relationship with them before you spot these traits.

[@CraigMalkin]

Check out my early warning signs video. There are dead giveaways because *no one* with these traits is securely attached.

[@thepaintedlady4637]

Sooo true!! It can take a few months for the person to start leaking all of the traits and for the picture to become clear. If you only interact with them a few times or infrequently it is not obvious at all, they charm and make people feel good, and massage egos initially. Only later, once they have gained your trust and have you hooked on them do they switch over to the abusive stuff.

[@victorialadybug1]

Not always.

[@ellyess7203]

Susan Wagner: I think that is a very perceptive and important observation. Those of us here are already aware, and can learn, but the wider public have no idea. To someone aware of this terrible disorder, they may get a hint that the person is one, however, the Covert type, in my experience is so very skilled at seeming like that nice kind man. (I apologise to men who suffer from a CN female, but I will say "man" here because I was married to a man who was a really cruel one). People without any information about Narcissism and Covert type, will have not be trying to learn about it and will have no idea who is one on meeting them in the public arena. My CN husband made everyone think he was so kind and caring and even when he said rude and offensive things to me in front of our friends he had a way of getting round them so they thought he was just a jolly kind of funny man. When I broke down with bad depression because of him and the terrible life he made me lead, my Doctor said he wanted to speak to him. Somehow I managed to get him to the Doctor's surgery. I knew my Doctor was going to tell him to be kind etc. although he did not know the reason for or details of real hell my life was like. Yet when my husband came out, the two men were having massive belly laughs which disturbed everyone in the Waiting Room and on the way home my husband told me that my Doctor now knows what a whore I was in bed! It was so mortifying I cannot begin to explain. I grew up as a faithful member of my Church, reading the Lesson, singing in the Choir, if anything I was a bit of a prude. Sex with him was absolutely horrible and also painful (which was something I had had the courage to tell my Doctor) because of my husband's roughness and cruelty and the lewd things he said which made me feel ill. You are right. If you are not in a relationship with a CN you are unlikely to spot one. Especially if it is not something you have ever had reason to learn about. It seems that my husband was typical and he knew exactly how to deceive others into believing that he was such a nice man.

[@psk1w1]

I spotted that a fellow member of a community association was childish, hateful and a manipulator, so I made sure to distance myself from her. She mounted a prolonged hate campaign on me, alleging all sorts of wickedness on my part (it included allegations that I am violent and a dangerous sexual predator), which no-one would actually admit that she was doing. I continued to ignore her. Eventually there was a complete divide in that community - her flying monkeys and those who didn't participate. After four years of her complete impunity to slander, we left. And it's a relief not to be enfolded in an atmosphere of unspoken hate.

[@miahleissa9599]

The toll it takes on the health to live with a person who is Narcissistic is unbelievable. The energy it takes to protect oneself will kill you. seriously. If you can get away from them, please DO.

[@tim3854]

it really is a supernatural phenomena... the energy transference, it's not psychological stress cos it happens when you don't even know they're there

[@raghavendravishwas5929]

Yes..I'm from India.. recently I had to leave a well paying job because of such a dangerousness man..

[@fainitesbarley2245]

Yes. You can never just relax and be yourself. Everything - and I mean everything - is manipulative and unreal.

[@presence5426]

*We need a social movement to raise awareness and prevent Malignant Narcissists from getting power in society.*

[@cherylanne57]

They are already in power and running everything right into extinction - Very Important People completely self-serving don't care about anything else

[@miahleissa9599]

I think that's what's going on now, at least online. This term and explanations of it are all over the place. Yes. It's good to be educated. These people are dangerous.

[@JMilosh]

www.change.org/p/department-of-defense-test-federal-policymakers-for-dangerous-personality-disorders

[@rohithreddy75]

You cant do anything,They have other narcs helping them just like we have a community they tend to have it too.Just keep calm and enjoy your life and never look back.

[@smartcatcollarproject5699]

@Presence exactly raising awareness is the first thing to do ! get clear definitions, then talk about these disorders, while keeping calm - do not fall into their trap and become a radical ! Their covert methods, use of emotions to better manipulate people, their lies and cheats, etc... That said they are part of the highest sphere of society, that's true, and narcisstic traits help to succeed, plotting, manipulating people... and this is nothing new, Machiavel who is mentioned in the video was already using these methods hundreds of years ago for politics !

[@Pattie-o7f]

My ex has all these traits. He wasn't physically abusive it was more mentally and emotionally abusive. To the extent that no one was aware of this bit even me . It took me a long time to figure him out. He intentionally hurt me very badly and most people say just get over it and don't understand the true nature of this insidious abuse. It's very well hidden and he knew exactly how to hurt me. I'm also concerned he may be praying on a child in his family. He knows no boundaries. Disgusting

[@CraigMalkin]

I'm so very sorry. How awful. Are you familiar with @onemomsbattle on facebook? Such a great resource. I hope you're healing. Take good care.

[@MartinaBoyce]

I totally understand. No one without this experience understands it and I find that so frustrating. I'm unable to explain the depth of my emotional disturbance and therefore feel foolish and invalidated, sometimes even questioning myself. We have to validate and love ourselves to get well.Good luck! Martina

[@freddyjohnson6395]

Same with me!! You either have to be going through a relationship or have gone through it. Anybody that hasn't experienced it cannot walk in you shoes.My narc normalized it and i just got used to it as the norm. Until the cheating and discard i finally started to figure it out , Wow what a journey through the rabbit hole,,,, stay strong my friend

[@kieransimpson4965]

Sounds horrible and you are brave to speak out. Any way you can help the child you think may be prayed upon?

[@psk1w1]

@@kieransimpson4965 If a child is being preyed upon, they will find it hard to understand what is happening, or ask for help. Just being around and offering a kindly presence will offer a contrast with the manipulation of the narc, and may lead to the child recgnising the difference, perhaps even disclosing to you or some other. But also, being around may enable you to spot exactly what the narc is up to with the child - but be VERY careful in how you observe. If a narc is aware that you are watching, they will be careful to take steps against you

[@gwendolynwehage6336]

I have been in the narcissistic system all my life! It was a shock when I realized that all these weird and rude things people were doing to me were because of these family dynamics that seemed to be trained into the people. When someone like me comes along and calls it out as abuse, then the system grows as the narcissists engage others in gossip to turn them against me. When we talk about this,. most people would think we were paranoid, but it is real.

[@dannysze8183]

yup.

[@saminarose80]

I just can’t understand how they can plan everything and do it step by step so patiently and hide behind a very kind and caring mask! And they are not academically smart persons even! I just can’t believe how they can be so smart in that regard and abuse others like a cat playing with a mouse? And there’s no way to prove that they are hurting you constantly cause they are so good to hide it! 🤯

[@freegracecommunity]

Yep, my biological family

[@tim3854]

even when you can prove it, the law doesn't want to help cos you know why

[@robertandrocky5004]

Because they enjoy doing it : planning ....

[@JD-un2zv]

My nex emails me still, it all goes to spam folder but looked other day, sent me her bosses write up of her work review, bunch home listing expensive houses, forwarded vacation email..it's just crazy..have to block block block.

[@pamelapap]

They are good at it because most normal people can not conceive someone so evil until they live with it. The narchole knows this. For their partners they seek empaths on purpose.

[@NickyLindolls]

Brilliant!!! This clarifies my experience with my mother. Definitely a lot of darkness and manipulation of situations to steal joy and even illicit anger brought her so much satisfaction. 🤢

[@CraigMalkin]

Nicky Lin wow-thank you.So glad you found it helpful! But so sorry to hear about your experience with your mother. Wish you continued healing

[@NickyLindolls]

Dr. Craig Malkin thank you so much. I really appreciate your response and especially your kind words. Videos like yours on narcissism and specifically covert narcissism are what has helped me the most.

[@CraigMalkin]

@@NickyLindolls You're so welcome!

[@somebodysfalling]

I feel many people get really confused over the concept of overt vs covert when any type, grandiose or shy, can engage in the covert hidden abusive patterns. It helps to hear your explanation. In one experience with a more grandiose type, there was verbal and physical abuse, a fiery temper related to narcissistic injury. With a shy type, there was no physical abuse, but verbal, never yelling but name calling, but he seemed more sadistic in the things he said or did to try to cause harm or hurt. Both types were extremely sneaky, engaged in the same level of gaslighting, silent treatments, lies, cheating, manipulation. I guess that’s why in my mind I’ve labeled them all covert, trying to “cover” who they truly are.

[@CraigMalkin]

Most abusers work hard to hide their abuse, true, whether they're overt or covert narcissists, for the simple reason that it makes it easier for them to perpetrate.

[@libraryfiles4470]

Who fell and how?

[@whotelakecity2001]

What you describe is a very good description of my experience with "shy" type. Especially the inclination to inflict pain.

[@kamihimes]

Fifteen years, 13 married, hear I am thinking he was having hearing loss, memory loss (never did what he said he'd do), ADD, and then when the aggression started, thought he had early onset dementia. When I finally found out about COVERT (i'm a therapist!. Why are the spectrums not in the new DSM, or taught)... I get as if I had been raped for 15 years. Please tell me how the DSM never mentions this. I'm in hiding now.

[@CraigMalkin]

I'm so sorry to hear about what you've been through. The DSM V has made some small movement toward including covert traits, but there's still a lot of room for improvement. One problem: these descriptions come from personality and social psychological (trait) research, not clinical research. Even Dark Tetrad comes from trait research. Clinical and trait researchers rarely work together. I tried to get something started last year--no luck, Too hard coordinating and finding funding.

[@Lu12340]

Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a well kept secret.

[@tebby3377]

Thank you so much for sharing your experience. It so resonates within me. Hearing loss? Memory loss? Dementia? ADD? As a nurse I kept thinking there has to be a name for this kind of behavior but I couldn't find anything. I too feel like I have been raped. They are insidious like cockroaches. So grateful to Dr. Malkin for pulling the blindfold off my eyes.

[@samariaj.m.4401]

Still going through your channel but I have to say the videos outlining some of these behavior helped me open my eyes from a 7 year relationship where I’ve literally went downhill and believed it was all my fault and deserved it because he has been so nice to me the entire time and what he did he could always rationalize. Your video on how to help my child who shows narcissist behaviors is going to help me redirect him and hopefully break the cycle

[@jofish420]

Thanks for this vid. I was with my ex for 17 years, and suffered through so much abuse emotionally, and also physically. It became progressively worse toward the end, where he was extremely covert in his plans to hurt me. oh..he had made plans very secretively for some time. I didn't even know what NPD was..but I had been abused in my first marriage very severely. He knew this and used this against me. The last night together, and part of his plan, he tried to strangle me the last night, and he went to jail. I also have C-PTSD, and it has gotten better. Once away, I found out about NPD, and I researched it diligently to find some kind of sense in what I had been through, and now I know how much I was gaslighted. Most often I have had feelings of "how could I have been so duped?" There were warning signs that I ignored, even in the beginning. He even told me "there is a side of me that you never want to see". I cast that off so readily, because he was so charming, generous, courteous, all of that good stuff in the beginning, and then he only was that way with others as time went on, and I began to see that it was fake. In that last week, he told my son, with his back to me, "you know you have to watch your mom, she can be crazy". My son is almost 30, and afterward my son and I discussed this, because it was just a weird thing to say. I got a great therapist that understood, and set me on a great path to rediscovering myself, and now I can go to sleep at night and not be scared that he's coming to finish the job. There is a restraining order, but for everything that I know about him, I cannot help but think that, because that final night he was intent on hurting me. The Dark Triad is definitely what I was dealing with. He is dangerous.

[@rhondadimas5545]

Bless you Jo. I'm glad you survived the abuse. My daughter is trying to divorce a covert. After so much verbal and emotional abuse (almost became physical) while being quarantined through Covid-19 lock down she finally filed after 19 years. She always tried to make improvements to herself, and took the abuse in the hope that he would love her and things would get better. He has his own practice, is smart, handsome, charming, caring to his patients, etc. All just a facade...They have two little kids and co-parenting with him is a nightmare. I'm so worried and terrified for her and my Grandchildren. She is seeking therapy through video connect. If there is any advise you can give that will help us, please let me know. God bless you!

[@jofish420]

If she is still there the first step is getting free, and take her children with her. If she is free, keep with her counseling. I went for two years. I am now in year 4, post abuse, and now I’m living my best life!!! ☺️. It DOES get better! She never needed to “make herself better”. It’s a ploy that they use to undermine and gaslight you.

[@G2thesecondpower]

Dr. Malkin, I have put up with what I believe to be covert emotional abuse from a partner for 12 years. It involves subtle put-downs, some gaslighting, guilt trips, stonewalling, withholding, etc; plus chronic invalidation of my feelings and needs, via conversations where I try to bring my feelings and or issues with this person's behavior to light. Generally speaking I will be invalidated and labeled either over-sensitive, dramatic, overreacting, and if I'm super lucky ;) histrionic, crazy, and emotionally unstable! My partner can be extremely passive-aggressive, including insults passed off as jokes, and other forms of contempt like eye-rolling, yawning, and it generally dismissive attitude. When I attempted to bring up problems, he will also deflect block, divert, in such a way that it feels likethis crazy Jiu-Jitsu move that now suddenly takes everything and turn it back on to me. it's been the most frustrating and maddening experience of my life it's taken me years and years of reading and research to figure out what the hell is going on. At first I thought he had passive aggressive personality; then that was taken out of the DSM because passive aggressiveness is too much of a trade of the other cluster B's. That is when I stumbled on the idea of narcissism; especially the idea of covert narcissism, because my partner is not outwardly grandiose at all; in fact he's more of a loner. However, despite some of the crazy things I've experienced with this guy, (there were a few cases of some pretty crazy gaslighting and guilt trips in the beginning, however I didn't know those terms at the time) I do not think he's a psychopath (he has friends, likes animals, and does have light behind his eyes...) or an extreme sadist--unless my understanding of these concepts is lacking. He does however have an intense need to deflect any responsibility for harmful behavior--thus making it next to impossible to resolve any issues with this person. I am almost always left feeling like I am the problem, no matter how insulting or how inconsiderate he has been, he will minimize his behavior, often followed by an attack on my character, usually followed by me getting upset and him acting like my behavior is proof that I'm the unstable one! This is totally crazy making behavior, to the point that it has affected my mental and even physical health at times, but it is never crossed the line into scary rage or frightening behavior. I'm aware that you can't diagnose, but I'd be curious to know if based on my description you would consider these potential indications of someone with narcissistic traits; despite not being psychopathic--I've seen no evidence for that. Cheers!

[@transformerboy06]

Gillian G you are describing my husband. It’s disheartening and so frustrating.

[@dianeconeby6887]

@@transformerboy06 mine too!

[@sunnybein1]

He’s NPD.Listen to vids by Little Shamen she’s an expert on them..and you’ll hear her describe the person your asking questions about.Exit the relationship asap.

[@MartinaBoyce]

Thank you so much, Dr Malkin. It is frustrating to be unable to explain the depths of emotion felt in the aftermath of a relationship with a covert narcissist/sociopath. No one would believe how insidiously evil they are. It's another form of gaslighting It leaves you feeling foolish, incapable, powerless and invalidated to the extent that you begin to question your own perception of events. At last, I understand what has happened to me through my maternal relationship causing my people-pleasing behaviour. Then came my predatory partner, a highly respected member of the community and an eminent member of the medical profession but an elite and malignant narcissist. With help from you and your books, I'm now free to self-validate, self-care and self-love. I have hope and I am healing.

[@mreloo]

i know how u feel...40 years with my covert narsicist Jezebel monster wife 10 months awake..my way of understanding this crazy behavior.. wierdo..crazy lady were my "pet" names for her and +50 -50 = 0 i was sooo messed up with being a codependent empath ,self love deficit disordered and due to recently discovering my childhood trauma of unworthiness, this bs demonic behavior was familiar to me...she (the demon) destroyed me physically emotionally, spiritually, and financially...still working and praying for an exit plan

[@janswimwild]

This is a reassuring description of my mother, as her handmaiden and scapegoat she appeared sweet to others but took spiteful delight in verbally and privately sweeping my legs from under me. While I was a child this was also her preferred physical punishment. Thank you for validating what had been a slow growing awareness over recent years after decades of being trapped in ‘good dutiful girl’ servitude. I can now see that it’s what she did to my father and my paternal grandmother while others can only see her saccharine front. She is very good at it! Though now that my father is dead and I have withdrawn contact I do wonder who her victim is now.

[@juliahart721]

I'm the daughter of a covert narcissist and when I stick up to her my father will become emotionally abusive and start to yell

[@missmerbella]

I love you for doing this. So many self-professed "experts" on narcissism with zero professional training... It'd be one thing if they provided references based on clinical research and/or inserted a disclaimer (as in, I am not a professional, these conclusions are based on personal experience only), but they don't. It's fortunate that we have someone of your background and experience on KZbin. Thank you. :)

[@CraigMalkin]

Thank you!

[@erynnpierce]

True- and I’m relying on clinical stuff to help inform me and “wake me up”, however I cannot diminish the impact a survivor with a command of the lexicon and self-education with such academics as Dr Malkin can be. Direct experience combined with educating yourself can edge out a clinician when a person is truly wanting to crack the code and come out of isolation.

[@betweenames]

If I could do the thumbs up a hundred times I would.

[@MsGlamourcat]

Honestly, sometimes the best "training" is the hands-on training of living through it, surviving and then healing from it all. You have no idea how many psychologists and therapists out there only have the education, but no real life experience. Both Doctors and "self-proclaimed experts" have something equally beneficial to share.

[@tim3854]

experience is the best training, there's plenty of "qualified experts" who don't know what they're talking about, and there's a reason for that of course

[@kirstieferris7563]

I was well ingrained in relationship for a while before I started to realise that my depression, confusion, anxiety and lack of self worth had only started to manifest when in relationship with the ex covert narcasist. It is so insidious and damaging and slowly erodes self. I was a happy, confident, kind, sensitive woman before I became entangled in his web of destruction. I've been no contact and will not respond to any attempts of communication from him if they should arise. Part of me feels sorry for him but they know what they're doing and the pain their actions cause to others. I don't wish I'll will but I don't like, respect or care about him anymore. Thanks for video as not enough on the covert. 😊

[@Quiche543]

Not necessarily do you have to be IN a relationship with a covert narc to spot these traits. I had a neighbor who systematically terrorized me through various crazy-making events that were targeted toward me only. He turned on the charm for the neighbors around us, and would malign my character to these people. His campaign of terror was done often in the wee hours of the morning while others were sleeping & would vandalize my property among other things. He & his wife were a tag team. I always referred to him as a bully & I think she cooperated with him because it took the heat off of her. I referred to her as the secondary bully. BUT, there was something darker going on with those two. Anyway, it's a long, sad tale of woe, but it was a living hell living beside these two for a number of years before I decided the only way I would regain my sanity would be to move. Through therapy I learned that I was a target due to my background & some unresolved issues I was not aware of, but this guy saw me coming from a mile away. I'm not saying it was my fault in anyway, but these sick puppies choose their victims. It isn't just a coincidence, they look for traits in people that they will be able to exploit for whatever sick thrill they get from victimizing others. They are like vampires!! There is no reasoning with these types of people! The only way to deal with them is get the HELL away & don't look back!!!

[@attheranch873]

Lorraine Baker vampires is a good way to think of them. Vampires that need our blood to stay alive, wow!

[@breck5369]

Lorraine, they must be twins with my neighbors. I put up the largest fence possible according to zoning and can't wait for a couple of years when I too can move away from this toxic couple. I have lived in many other homes/places and never had one issue with my neighbors. Neither of them work and they have cameras trained at my property (cops say it is legal as long as they are not aimed at my bedroom) and just watch and wait for the next opportunity. They have charmed all the local law enforcement and so now I AM THE PROBLEM!!!!

[@jdglen24]

I didn't notice the abuse as an adult either until I developed ptsd...they don't realise the pain and hurt they cause...but i still am learning compassion and love for the abusers bc these are people who carried the hurt that I work through everyday...they are the child they accused me of being, they are the weak ones who couldn't heal themselves...they were ultimately the problem they tried to make me believe I was...and the same goes for you...you were the complete opposite and the strongest that's why you were targeted for this abuse...bc you could handle it and because you'd tell other people your story to help them through...and bc you are a light worker and that's why you need to heal yourself to go on shining that beautiful light you were gifted with into this world full of hurt people passing on hurt

[@freegracecommunity]

Nice post. Can you share the unresolved issues that made you a target? God Bless you

[@theharringtons2010]

Sound exactly like my neighbours..

[@rickiilatino]

The validation of what I have experienced has been very helpful to me. When someonee shares their story and I can relate so well to what they say, I am helped along my healing journey. The person doesn't have to be a professional in these matters. We can tell when we are really understood at a deep level.

[@usedabusedandmisunderstood8205]

You think you know someone, but then you dont

[@libraryfiles4470]

How can one remain vulnerable and yet protect their own heart? It seems that psychological pathology is the result of not having boundaries respected during development.

[@freegracecommunity]

Yes

[@Paarthurnaxdova]

We can’t stay vulnerable or you will get destroyed out here. Protect yourself at all costs

[@Paarthurnaxdova]

My ex Dismissive Avoidant has all of these traits. Very quiet, sneaky, never gave me my needs of communication, making me feel valued etc. after four years I discovered solid evidence that he was closet gay and had been sleeping with men the whole time, lied to my face about who and what he was every day. Had zero remorse for making me suicidal from all the emotional abuse and ghostings. Unbelievable how these people are capable of hurting good humans and not caring.

[@andypjhl]

Thank you for this insight. It has forever confused me (well, not forever... the past year and a half) that my narcissistic ex partner was not the grandiose classic kind, but rather the falsely humble, generous yet outgoing and charismatic kind which is similar to, but not the same as, the classic narcissist. The Dark Tetrad explains a lot. Covert abuse: the subtle, manipulative, passive aggressive kind yet combined with false modesty, extroversion and charisma; masking a sense of inferiority which he often vocalised in private. The abuse was only ever psychological and emotional -- not physical -- but still devastating. You're right, you do feel as though you've been robbed on the inside as time goes by. Thanks Dr Malkin.

[@CraigMalkin]

So glad you found the video helpful and especially glad you're free!

[@thepaintedlady4637]

This is such a good summary. I have encountered exactly this type of person. They had the combo of a charismatic and false 'do-gooder' persona, were falsely humble (but would leak narcissim and grandiosity occasionally), passive aggressive and would psychologically manipulate others with subtle put-downs, witholding, devaluation, gaslighting... only after a period of intensification of connection and idealization. They never get to the point of actual physical harm or violence, but the damage they do is just as bad and no one can see it. I actually have found that there are many of these types lurking in spiritual communities, which is both unfortunate and scary.

[@celinechau4285]

Andy - semper sapiens http

[@Kayenne54]

Mental, emotional, spiritual, financial abuse. As far as I'm concerned, these are even more valid forms of abuse than physical. God forbid these covert types should leave a tell tale bruise you could actually use against them. I bet your ex partner also used to say things when other people were around, which, if you answered in the spirit it was delivered (maliciously, but jokingly) everyone else would think you were the problem. My current partner made out in front of strangers that I was such a bitch, he was under the thumb. Joking of course, didn't mean it, just a joke. Yeah right. So when we got home I presented him with "how would you feel if I hinted I was so abused by you that I was frightened to make a decision about which coffee to order in public???...but hey, I'm just joking. He's not really abusive. He's an absolute doll. Really. No... really." He hasn't used the "henpecked husband" routine since, hence we are still together. But it's a common practice amongst men here in Australia to present with that kind of "she's a bitch on wheels" jokey comments. As I also pointed out to him, when he used the "lots of men say that" excuse, it's a form of put down to women. It's definitively not respectful to speak of your partner, in front of friends, family or complete strangers, as someone who is randomly mean or nasty as a matter of course, as though she's NOT responding to your bad behaviour, but just picking on you in a cruel way. Then I asked him when have you EVER seen me being cruel to others, ever? He had no reply to that. I also pointed out that when I'm cranky with him, I take the issue right to him, say his name, and call him on whatever, exactly as I was doing in this instance. I don't wait until we're in public to hold him up for covert ridicule. That passive/aggressive stuff really stands out for me now.

[@Star17venus]

@@Kayenne54 , appreciate you sharing. It's an echo, the same four forms of abuse implemented against me. Financial was the worst, as it meant a huge hurdle to escaping, which of course their reasoning behind it was just that...keep me from escaping....from the middle of nowhere country. 6 months free...Yay! Yet my financial credit is now ruined...during a gigantic economic recession & COVID lockdown that is also disrupting potential assistance with basic needs.

[@attheranch873]

That was very helpful, thank you. Just really cleared some things up for me, and I’ll be able to spot narcissists much better now.

[@moviemakerwannabe]

Would gas-lighting be an example of this?

[@ellyess7203]

Despite the difficulties of the name, we do need to classify the behaviour of the "Covert Narcissist" somehow. This is because until we recognise the abuse they enjoy delivering and give support to their victims, there will be people like me, who spend their lives married to a man who completely destroys their life. Education is essential, of young people and adults. Their hidden cruelty is indescribable yet when there are no bruises to show nobody understands. Then there is their accomplished lying, so that nobody will believe you, because they come across so plausibly and play the victim themselves, so the victim of their torture is truly isolated. Mine did evil things, the evening we were due to go to a special function of my choir, he even let our under one year old reach tablets I was on so that she had to have her stomach pumped and then letting me get all the blame because they were my tablets, yet I had put them up on a shelf so high a crawling baby could not possibly reach them. He had held her up to reach. He was trying to build up a picture that I was a bad mother, depressed, etc. I simply adored my baby and I know I was a very good mother, doing everything I could to give her the best possible start in life. I was a qualified teacher who had come top in my year on graduating, and I read everything I could about baby care, but most importantly I just loved her so much and she and I were so happy and had such good times together, when he was not there. It was difficult because those were days before mothers were able to easily return to work and child care was not available. He never gave me any money, not ever. So to buy anything I needed I had to earn my own money. One day, as I tried to keep up as he did his usual weekly rush round the supermarket, at the check-out he held a pack of sanitary towels high up and said loudly "I did not buy these, Why are these in my trolley?" Again, that was in the 1970s when I was terribly shy and acutely embarrassed about such a personal thing. My husband seemed to have had an unhappy childhood and I therefore was filled with compassion and gave him so much love and attention and let him always have the best of everything, always have his own way, which meant cancelling things at the last minute and letting people down many times. He was so utterly cruel in how he spoke to me but having forced me to marry him when I was only 19 (he said he would kill himself if I did not) and he was 33, I did not stand a chance. To the wider circle of people he met, with none of whom he had a close relationship, he was called "That nice Mr ......." I did not get away until I was 42 and then he committed suicide, leaving me with three daughters who were devastated. I also had to cope with his enormous debts most of which I had not known about, so had to sell our house. I managed to do this, having decorated the house first as he would not do anything to it, and even moved to a small but nice house which meant the children stayed at their same schools. My now adult children have no conception of his true nature and idolise him. One spoke as if she knew what he did to me and so I said something thinking she knew about it. This caused a terribly distressing rift between us which I feel so awful about. Yet I do not understand why she had made the several comments in the first place that showed she knew what he did to me, and then said some years later that she had no idea. His legacy has been to destroy what was a lovely relationship with my children and we used to be so close and get on so well. It has finished me, the pain is so terrible and I cannot bear it.

[@SolidSiren]

Dr Malkin, after having watched many videos on "covert narcissism", I think the general idea of a covert narcissist as opposed to an obvious, "overt", grandiose narcissist, is that these peoples sense of grandiosity, self importance, etc, only seems to come out at certain times. A narcissist being overt, grandiose, and obvious, is EASY to recognize. For example when any person says something like "You cannot even FATHOM the amount of pain I have experienced in my life." or "The world has beaten me down my ENTIRE life. Nothing good has ever happened to me." or maybe "You have hurt me FAR more than I have ever hurt you." Those statements automatically stand out as extreme, dualistic, competitive, grandiose, and shows they lack the ability to understand that others experience the same levels of emotions they do. But "coverts" seem to hold back saying statements like this much longer than an "overt" would. Experts say that every narc fluctuates between the 2 states. I believe these people tend to believe they have suffered more simply because they tend to ruminate, obsess, and constantly feel shame and constant negative thought patterns, and do not see others doing so. They do not appear to understand that people who are well adjusted and have found happiness or at least acceptance of life, have suffered too, and choose positivity despite the pain. They seem to believe those people must not have suffered as much as they have. They seem to me to be people who do not value the wisdom of others, and I think that stems from their internal belief that they are special, different, extraordinary.

[@CraigMalkin]

Yes! all correct. Excellent description.

[@AnnK.-vu2yp]

Great observations

[@mncat7034]

Thank you, doctor. You described my soon to be ex-husband precisely. Just knowing there exists a name for the weirdness, neglect, emotional abuse and finally the physical abuse I endured helps.

[@TheShanshuprophecy]

For me there was an overwhelming sense of being ‘managed’ emotionally - definitely Machiavellian - the first time I was bewildered but by the second/third cycle is was clear as, unlike machievelli, he was a one or two trick pony .. craziest thing is he would attack me as always wanting everything ‘my way’ .. which was astounding .. hhhmmm .. maybe he was a 3 trick pony 😱

[@usedabusedandmisunderstood8205]

Or a three year old in a mans body

[@TracyAMalone]

Both my ex-narcs were covert narcissists but I have never heard the covert abuse said like that - thank you! I read the trump book thank you for your bravery.

[@CraigMalkin]

Thank you so much, Tracy. That means a lot :-)

[@creatingdigitalassets]

Covert narcissists are charming and cunning planning every move. Fake and no emotions. When the masks drops, when you finally figure them out… You will look at them and see a total stranger. A monster. It’s scary . My ex.

[@DarlingNickki777]

Thank you for this. Question: What type of counseling or help should a mother and her children seek out to heal from this type of abuse? Thanks for the videos!

[@oscarwilliamson1264]

Nicole Frias,hope you are not with a narc 🙄?

[@SK_TorON]

The type superiority that covert narcissists are not afraid to flaunt is moral superiority, which is safe for them to show because it is socially acceptable and also because the more subtle, to wit "covert", the presentation of moral superiority is, the more effect it has on people, who tend to feel both awed and diminished by it.

[@thepaintedlady4637]

Such a good point. I was just reflecting on the fact that it is common to find these types in spiritual communities. Have seen this more than once, where moral stuff is used in a manipulative fashion and a narcissist pretends to be the epitome of morality (yet actual behaviors do not reflect this, but they manage to get everyone to believe they are spiritually and morally superior).

[@majidali9665]

“Moral superiority” this is one no one has mentioned in regards to narcissists. is the main avenue they openly use to make people look up to them. They wanna be seen as the ones to correct everyones affairs esp women’s like a hero rescuing a woman from their “dull and boring lives” from their husband who’s working hard because they know women are easily persuaded and will believe they are getting a bad deal in their current relationship not knowing that narcissist is million times worse. One psychologist did mention they will have access to lots of women as it gives them the grandiosity. They only wanna use women for 1 thing.

[@christinecooper4256]

Definitely noticed this as a major trait in my covertly abusive ex. To the point where he regularly argued heavily for the death penalty because of how assured he was about the moral hierarchy.

[@wendyandfriends]

Thank you for the light that you shed on the very "off" things that have confounded, demoralized, and hurt many of us in our lives. Thank you for the work that you do! It helps those of us who've been under its horrible "spell" to understand that it was not us that deserved such insidious, bad and demoralizing treatment. Thank you for the light!

[@CraigMalkin]

You're so welcome.Wishing you #courage in your healing

[@oscarwilliamson1264]

Wendy Clark,hope you are not with a narc 🙄?

[@wendyandfriends]

@@oscarwilliamson1264, not anymore.

[@oscarwilliamson1264]

@@wendyandfriends Wow😊😊😊😊😊😊😊🌹🌹🌹!,I am so happy to hear that.I'm Oscar Williamson from Alabama.You?

[@oscarwilliamson1264]

@@wendyandfriends which country are you from?

[@MultiA3b]

I think my mother is the inventor and leader of the 'Dark tetrad'.

[@AA-in3ok]

Best explanation I’ve seen. Thank you!

[@ronfirek5824]

BLESSINGS Those with Attachment security do not perpetrate abuse. Great notes Dr. Malkin.

[@creativebea]

Question below… ⬇️ Thank you for this new video, Dr. Malkin! I have your book, Rethinking Narcissism, and discovered that one of my siblings is usually a 7-9 (according to their behavior and results of family members rating the sibling using your Narcissism Test). I have been subject to this person's bullying, verbal and emotional abuse. But I don't think the origin of all narcissism boils down to parental flaws or abuse as your book and videos suggest. Rather, my sibling was teased and bullied relentlessly in school regarding their physical appearance and so, instead of socializing with peers, spent most of their time at home and in school on the computer (this was pre-social media). So my question is: When there is no parental (or sibling) abuse present, cannot narcissism come from outside experiences, such as longterm peer-to-peer teasing, bullying in school and lack of social experiences and development during formative years?

[@CraigMalkin]

It can, yes, but --sometimes through no fault of the parents, sometimes as the result of limitations we *all* might encounter as parents--someone who develops pathological narcissism still lacks attachment security. Something must have interfered with their ability to turn to others to cope with the bullying, for example, and feel comforted and protected and cared for. Sometimes a difficult temperament makes a child resistant to attempts to comfort and nurture. And it can make them more likely to identify with the aggressor (the strategy is if you can't beat them, join them). Secure attachment is the result of a complex interaction between caretakers and the child's ability to take in care. As sad as it is, some children (those born more predisposed toward aggression or narcissism) require expert handling and coaching in order to prevent their temperament pushing them towards pathology. Said another way, pathological narcissism can't develop without attachment insecurity, but some kids have a harder time attaching.

[@breakthroughmoment1647]

My mother is all of the above. Thank you for this video.

[@teraclouse2766]

I wonder if dark triad/tetrad is ‘end stage’ or high spectrum rather than a separate disorder. I experienced this ‘covert’ abuse for 12 years. He did fluctuate between overt behavior (in public) and covert, was definitely self loathing and very angry, but worsened and had less control over time. The sadistic behavior didn’t really start until about year 10 when I confronted his behavior...my patience and tolerance snapped....he then lost all control and was an emotional wreck who basically turned up the heat on me until I left.

[@betweenames]

I'm trying to understand the sadistic tendencies. I'm not sure what that would look like. Is mockery very subtly done in front of others considered sadistic or would it be more specific stuff like when they are nibbling on your ear and repeatedly tell you how they dream of biting it off?

[@justlookalittledeeper9953]

They can be so subtle in their putdowns and manipulations ... but they keep it all hidden from themselves, to remain in denial. They can't even start to self-reflect. Like my older sister: "Oh yeah, but you don't drink." "Oh yeah, but you're watching your pennies." And I'm thinking, why don't you just come out and say what you actually feel. She never did that. I think she had two emotions: confusion over being rejected or thwarted and that rush of power she got when she could get you to do something you didn't want to do. So, she insinuated repeatedly that I was a wet blanket and cheap (with the occasional childish rage attack). I never shared a drink with her ever my entire life, but suddenly when I stopped, she spent years trying to coerce me. "Just one sip, come on." Did she think she was lesser than I, because I made a difficult life choice, simply for health reasons? I'll never know. She talked a lot, but never about real things. I disappointed her. I thwarted her plans. She could not control me any more. The end of my echoism was the end of the friendship, and that's ultimately a good thing, even though the rest of family may turn their backs on me because of my decision to stop contact. I wanted my life back... took three whole weeks away from her last summer. She tried exclusion and triangulation, rubbing it in my face, and finally projection: labelling me what she was feeling... telling me I was angry. So many tactics in a short period of time. My throat feels choked up just thinking about it. She could not respond in a healthy way to the words "no thanks." She would just ramp up the sales job. You feel slimed with these covert types. It is insidious. You can't talk about it with them. I wondered why, I so often craved to have people in my life who are forthright and authentic. I would see someone who is authentic and wish I could be more like them. Tell it like it is. If you're not happy, don't bend to someone's pressure to act happy. The irony is, this covert narc seemed to understand when I struggled to get away from a histrionic-style woman who talked in code. She called it communication that was "not clean." It amazes me that she had this insight, and yet she started doing the same thing. It's next to impossible to find an expert who understands the subtle manipulation these types do in order to get their needs met and how it affects relationships. I gotta admit, initially I thought the doctor was a bit of apologist for covert narcissists because of last month's video... because maybe he didn't have first-hand exposure to one, or simply because he has helped a narcissist improve (they're great pretenders doc and love the quick fix or ego boost). But hearing this video, I do think he has some understanding of coverts. It happens over time. And you cannot correct their point of view or ask for clarification or help them modify their behaviour one little bit, because they get defensive... oh yeah, their intentions are pure as the driven snow. They may not get defensive in the therapist's office because they play along and seek approval from those those they see as well-educated or superior to them.

[@JohnDoe-gq3tm]

"It amazes me that she had this insight, and yet she started doing the same thing." YES! Narcs know what's right and wrong. But they can't recognize when they themselves are doing something wrong. Narcs can't take accountability because it would shatter their false self. They believe their false self is genuinely who they are. That's why even if it would be in their best interest to simply admit their wrongs and apologize - They'll refuse because they can't admit to themselves that they did anything wrong to begin with. They'll have a justification that sounds fine but never quite makes sense. Narcs don't understand their own malignant emotions that drive their behaviors. They believe they have good intentions even when others can see otherwise. At least that's my understanding of it.

[@justlookalittledeeper9953]

@@JohnDoe-gq3tm So true. It took me a while to wrap my head around the fact that they need to defend against the shattering of the false self. There's no educating them on the benefits of admitting wrongdoing as a way to grow or evolve.

[@Journeyoflove13]

Thank you very much! Especially the explaination part of the dark tetrad is helpfull.

[@CraigMalkin]

So glad!

[@nefiseHphotography]

Thank you Dr Malkin for this video and breaking down what Covert Narcissism looks like in such a succinct and understandable way. Also really insightful to learn about the Dark Tetrad traits associated with this type of disorder and how it manifests as abuse. It has really helped with my recovery and healing process and it feels very reassuring coming from a professional with expertise in this subject.

[@CraigMalkin]

nefiseHphotography so glad you found it helpful!

[@derekwhitaker9451]

Thanks so much for these video series Dr. Malkin! Here's my story (an abstract). My dad is not violent but he's a master manipulator who often controlled my mom using just his body language (say she mentioned wanting to go back to school, all it took was a worried/disappointed face). When confronted over sabotage/passive-aggression/manipulation he'll adopt a martyr stance and say "let's not come apart over this." Doesn't see how his behavior/personality harms us, only how talking about it "destroys us as a family." He's so charismatic in a good guy/pillar of the community way that police once lied on a report to protect him, he didn't have to ask them to. Very dominant (angry?) guy in a sheep's dress. Recently asked him to vacate the living-room so I could be examined by a doctor/EMT I'd just called, he did not budge, actually sat closer to where I was. I'm not Einstein but I'm pretty sure it was a power demonstration. Having an honest conversation is an exercise in futility as the moment you start expressing grief about his behavior he refocuses on how much he's sacrified/suffered/endured and (implied) keeps enduring because you're not willing to let some things go. I don't know whether he's a proper narcissist or "only" a high mach charmer. He recently donated the entirety of my belongings while helping me move back home (claims it was a mental breakdown but had been complaining for years that the house was too crowded and 2 psychologists told me based on his emails/texts from that day that there was no mental breakdown). He never breaks character though, even if his excuses makes no sense. He's just too cool-headed, waits 'till you lose it, then you're the villain. Whenever he talks to my mom, he expresses concern over my "problems" (presumably OCD, GAD) but I can't shake the feeling that he's implying I AM a problem as I keep calling out such an "amazing guy." I grew up with a codependent mom who cried all day (to me), sometimes threatened suicide (over his covert abuse/gaslighting/discouragement)... then told me how good/misunderstood he was, even defend him from teenage me. So heck yeah I am insane. On the one hand I'm desperate to go no contact, on the other I feel like the real villain for wanting that (doesn't help that the cunning fellow keeps saying he'd die without my children around). If I didn't have children, I think I would off myself just to 1) finally get away from this guy plus 2) not have to deal with the guilt of it. Sadly I'm separated and disabled and do live with him atm. Does an adult child have the right to disengage from someone like this?

[@BigDangerousDan]

I had a covert, some one i'd known since infant school, always thought he was a great down to earth pleasant guy. It wasn't until he joined a band i was in that it became clear, in fact it wasn't until the band had been destroyed I sussed out what he was. I did get a feeling of some thing not quite right with him after a few months, something dark but just couldn't put my finger on it. I have learned a lesson from it, although it got me down and depressed for quit some time.

[@ellyess7203]

I married at 19 to a 32 year old Covert. I did not want to, but I was unable to stop my Narcissist mother and him pushing this dreadful snowball down the hill. He threatened in writing to kill himself if I did not marry him. It was village England 1969 - the Church in which my parents, grandparents etc had married and features in many movies (e.g. 'The Wedding Date', (a poor movie tho), 'Bridget Jones the Edge of Reason' and many more.) My point is that I had never heard of Narcissism. He was a Teacher from another school and friends with a Teacher - who happened to be world famous at that time - in my school. I was snatched up somehow at 17 and was very naive then more like perhaps a 13 yr old now. I thought all teachers knew best. I did as I was told. My parents were humble people my mother had undiagnosed psychiatric problems which because I grew up with her I thought were normal even though I had learned never to talk because she would lie and twist things. I spent from 17 to just 42 with this immensely cruel exceptionally clever man. He could do the difficult newspaper crossword in about 5 minutes. He made plays on words - spiteful ones - all the time. He even collaborated with his "friends" (all academics, all at least 10yrs older than I) to let them make attempts to rape me. I was terrified nearly all the time BUT I had to look as if I were happy and coping or he would do even more terrible things to me. My problems are not over even though he committed suicide in 1991 when I was granted custody of the children. I am struggling to come to terms with the waste of my life, how I spent all my young adult life up to just after my 41st birthday living in terror. How it continued after his death, at first from his older brother. How I walked into another spider's nest a few years later, not marrying though, but crucially, despite seeing red flags, I was unable to recognise Narcissism - not knowing it existed - thinking this next man was so different because he was kind and talkative. I fell for his hard-luck stories. Later , not much later, I found him to be a drastically bare-faced liar! At the beginning he would talk me out of my concerns, even bully me into staying with him. He would not leave me alone and was phoning and arriving on my doorstep all the time, even in the night. But he would play tricks, make me so frightened then say it was a joke. He too was a torture. Very selfish, putting his wishes above the needs of my 13 year old who had already had a very hard time. I saw that he was a crazy person, so self-centred. He kept me awake all night when my new-born grandson had nearly died 4 times that day. He knew I intended to drive to my daughter, 3 hours on a difficult road, that I am disabled by pain and get horrendous migraines (he'd done research on migraine!) and lack of sleep is a causal factor. Yet he kept shouting at me all night long about his car! He retired and came to pester me every day. He would not leave me alone. I could not do anything when he was around as he talked in riddles of mind killing madness the whole time - I could not even think. He kept on at me especially when I had no more money to give him. He refused to see a doctor despite strong signs of prostate trouble. he was a Hospital Doctor in a totally different field. Eventually he went to the Doctor. He had cancer and it was past the stage of complete cure. He was doing well on drugs which stopped it growing and was active and pain free. But he was very angry with the Consultant and everyone at the Hospital. To him, they were not giving him 5* "Private" level treatment for one thing. I was appalled at how he behaved. The Consultant was such a good man! And so busy! Like my husband, this Narcissist too committed suicide. He let me find him. In the bath with rigor mortis, apparently reaching as if to grab me. He pushed two carving knives, one into his abdomen twice and the other into his carotid artery. The Senior Paramedic would not allow his colleague to enter the bathroom at first. I am not recovering. This is because mainly I see myself as so stupid and weak- yet I gained a First-Class Hons degree in Psychology after my husband died with top marks in my year. But people constantly take me in with their confidence tricks. My father and I would never lie like that or harm anybody or any animal. One man, whom I had known from childhood but lost contact with during adulthood and was never close friends, suddenly came to my house, raped me and did something behind my back to my 2 months old puppy that made her scream so much I was so frightened for her, but he just smiled and refused to speak despite that I was saying "What happened?" and desperately trying to find out what was wrong with her. She is so nervous now especially of tall men. I hate myself for being so stupid about not knowing who is deceiving me. I just found out a "friend" (female) has been stringing me along for over 30 years to stop me reporting something her then husband did to me. I have told the authorities under whom he works now, because something arose and I thought she would be glad that his true nature and behaviour was made known. But she was furious and told me I should have asked her permission to report it first! I apologised and felt terrible but later, when the person to whom I had written contacted me, I realised that in all this time she had never been sympathetic about the terrible thing I went through and which still troubles me. She brushed it off as unimportant, probably something I didn't remember correctly (I did and do still ) and even threatened me about could I afford a law suite for slander? But the Head of the Establishment's first words to me were to say how sorry he was and he realised how hard it must have been to write about it. It did not happen to her she was not there . She stopped me talking at the time and for over 30 years and I can't tell you how hard, how painfully lonely. how dreadful it has been. The thing I am trying to understand and explain is that I have never felt as if I have rights. I have not even realised that I felt like this. I did not know I had the right to have rights! It took a very senior man in charge, to suddenly make me realise that what had happened then was a terrible assault against me and that how I dealt with it was my business not anyone else’s and should I choose to, they would support me in reporting it to the Police. This had never been apparent to me before and I am nearly 70. It has made me realise that, in a life-time of cruel hidden torture, rape in marriage, abuse by others, raped twice outside marriage, and being made to feel I had to keep quiet “or else”; I have never known or understood that my pain is my right to express. It just keeps screaming inside me silently. Furthermore, they were wrong to intimidate me into silence and make me believe I had no right to speak. Yet now, I really think I have done a terrible thing because I did not report him then. But then I just knew he would lie and no one would believe me against him. Mainly because of the role he held. Sorry, when I write I go on far too long. I just want to say how wonderful it is for all the people today, especially young people, to be taught by you, with such kindness and understanding and wisdom. My life cannot be lived again, it has been lost to these people. But through your help, thousands of lives will be saved and people will go on to live fear-free, fulfilled, happy lives. What you are explaining is the most essential thing to teach our children. Thank you.

[@mac-ju5ot]

He knows I. Not who.I am calks me a whimp. He held me in a chair spit into my face give years ago....we had been broken uo.....hes moved calls me every two mo this says he doing much better than me called me a whimp.sp ive told him off.hes nought two him brags about how u dont need a lisence I. Florida I'm so done with his posturing..thats what hes dine devalue out me diwn.

[@deboraharies3155]

He went to Harvard, Law School. Let us get this off the table. Narcissism does not pick or choose. I am not stupid, though I entered into the craziest place of my life. I spent 3 years trying to make sense of this, 5 years recovered. This channel and definitely Sam Vankin helped me find my way back...

[@Snowleopard6711]

So I’m going to admit that I’m seriously afraid of being a covert narcissist and I really really don’t want to be one, I want my life on track and I don’t want to hurt anyone anymore..I never thought I would become something like this but my mind has been so messed up for so long that I’ve been trying to figure out, “what’s wrong with me? Why am I like this?” And have been researching and researching..maybe I got in contact with one? Maybe I’ve been like this for to long..I refuse to continue to be like this and am going to accept god in my life to help my mind and soul

[@caracopland710]

Well done. A caregiver has definitely moulded you into this behaviour. Hope your feeling better. Caroline, 37 Dingwall 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿✌🏻❤️💪🏻👏🏻

[@zion367]

I highly doubt you are one, they rarely admit they are. Always blaming others.

[@wesmartino64]

I currently work with an overt narcissist, and he's somehow charmed most of the unit. I'm scared bc I sort of crossed him recently. I'm not sure how to prevent him from trying to sabotage me at work. He tried and failed once already.

[@jeanneeber]

Now THIS is my family. AND Trump! He does it outright & covertly!

[@annmccaslin5985]

Thank you! This video was helpful in clarifying some confusing issues for me. The Tetrad explains a lot.

[@jennodine]

Thank you so much for making this distinction. I recently uncovered sabotage that was done to my car when my husband was pretending to be helpful and kind to me. Looking back at the details and understanding the level of methodical calculation he undertook so he would not be suspected, I knew I had to run for my life. And I did. I’m staying in a shelter now, I’m safe and alive. And today I am applying for admission to college, as I put my broken life back together in a new way: the way I want it.

[@hypsnos]

For me one of the big confusions are parents (and (vs) siblings) vs love relationships (vs other people.) Even though I see the similarities we have totally different relations in between us. There will be different agendas/automatic responses/reasons for the things happening.

[@SydneyWest]

Hi Dr. Malkin, Thank you for the follow-up. Can someone with Machiavellianism be healed? Also are they different levels of Machiavellianism? Can someone be mild?

[@CraigMalkin]

Anyone can *if they want to* And yes, Mach is on spectrum like any trait.

[@VengefulPolititron]

covert: overpowering people by lying overt: overpowering people by force

[@SydneyWest]

Hello Dr. Malkin. Can you speak to covert manipulators more in-depth please? Through your explanations I think my experience was with a very covert manipulator. A lot of the tricks mimic the Narcissists like: Idealize, devalue, discard, but he doesn't quite make it to that level. He doesn't have 5/9 of the traits. But something is definitely wrong.

[@cathyb5013]

Thank you. This explanation was very insightful and helpful.

[@ali-es2ye]

I think Sam Vaknin introduced it under vulnerable narc

[@CraigMalkin]

ali the terms were all introduced by researchers. Wink introduced *vulnerable* narcissism. It’s not the same as covert abuse, though-different concepts.

[@DeAtHaToMiC88]

In my opinion, covert narc's and bpd is almost the same... Overt narc's (and I don't mean to playdown anybody pain here). To me, covert narcasissim and bdp abuse needs more defining, more explaining and aftercare than any other type of abuse. Overt narcasisists leaves a trail of abuse that is definable, it's horrible and wicked but once you know what to call the abuse you see it for what it was and you process it, a knowliage that you have been the victim of abuse learn and understand what happened then you can mentally try to move on. Coverts and bpd's on the other hand, have less definable features... Yes, I agree with everything that was said in the video but the TYPE of abuse and the scars that are left from the abuse is so so different to that of overt. The seeky and covert tactics of both covert and bpd seam to overlap... But in a relationship the devalue and discard phases seam completely different in the way they are manufactured. Instead of a cold, instant and obvious stream of abuse there seams to be the need for blaming, shifting guilt and the need for the victim not to fully comprehend what has taken place. Therefore after abuse it becomes harder to label the abuse as such... Confusion, foreboding questions of self wrongdoing, guilt over projected issues in the relationship. In my opinion, an untreated borderline can be the most mentally destructive of all in a relationship... Not only can you not see many if any overt traits, but the covert traits also come and go, you'll be abused and the person won't have fundamentally changed from who they were, the devalue stage lumped with stages of sympathy and apparent confusion one minuet but abuse and rage the next, you never know who this person really is at this stage. The disguard, full of blame and slight sympathy about how they wish the self sabotage they instigated could have been different, logic won't be implemented but sadness and a broken sense of empathy will be shown... All this and more leaves the victim unable to understand what has taken place, why they feel they way they feel, confusion as to if they have just been in a normal relationship or not, no clear way to define the abuse, or who was the victim and who was the abuser, and portrays and very twisted reality that isn't completely void of empathy unlike in narcasissm.

[@CraigMalkin]

I don't have a lot of time but there's a strong overlap between covert narcissism and BPD. And given that people with BPD have high rates of abuse in their past--usually extremely severe--what many believe (including myself) is that this can often lead to a horrible internal conflict, as if two selves are at war: the part of the person who can be caring empathic and longs for comfort (as they did as a child) and the part of the person who protects themselves by identifying with the aggressor (the logic being better to be a victimizer than a victim). The result is a struggle where you're not sure who's going to show up--the best version of them, or the the aggressor. The one thing that's certain is that for people who've been horribly victimized, the thought that they could be hurtful or victimize someone else is absolutely intolerable: hence the person who lashes out while presenting as the victim. They disown the aggressor within, if you will, through projection ("why are you attacking me!") and remain only conscious of the part of themselves that felt victimized.

[@DeAtHaToMiC88]

This isn't in depth but also, perfectly worded... and accurate to what ive seen, felt and studied... the active part of this split of self seams to occur when the person with BPD seams most triggered. For example when triggered by closeness, variability or abandonment of main supply. I would like to call this part the PTDI (post traumatic dissociative identity) ... i AM NOT a medical professional, but its the term i imagined while i thought about my own girlfriends actions and issues and also the way i see people at this stage in my mind. But i think this post traumatic stress of past issues renders the split of idealistic and positive reality. They appear to create a false paranoid reality, where they slip in and out of psychopathy, experience suppressed traumatic events and apply the same lessons taught to real life... distorting reality to the point they need to achieve an escape of self but cannot fully achieve it. i don't actually personally believe that the bpd ever really truely splits, i don't believe that BPD's or covert narcasissts could allow themselves too unlike overt narcissism, still allow the empathy and after thought for bad actions they KNOW that what they did wasn't acceptable or correct... but deep shame and pain forces them into self preservation and paranoid ptsd fueled beliefs future and past abuse that renderes the abuse as acceptable. I don't always feel like the jackal and hide part of them is chosen and it's more of a coping mechanism to suppress and forget ptsd like feelings over past issues, like you put it "They disown the aggressor within"... they allow the aggression because they are projecting a paranoid false reality... where they feel they ARE reacting reasonably and appropriately in in the reaction of long term PTSD trigger. The reason i think that BPD and narcissism is so different and the abuse is so much more worse in BPD is from the outside you can actually still see the person inside BPD suffering, even if it's not obvious to see the weak and variability inside, you seel glimpses of empathy... facts and situations rewrote to fit the need of the paranoia... a fight ensues where reality meets paranoid ideation and PTDI... trust is severely tested, wrong doings of the smallest kinda are mulled over and both picked at with an abusive hammer, then this is followed up with a skewed view of empathy and sympathy of not being fully able to come to terms with the issues they have usually made in there own mind. This leaves the partner confused, "yes i am not perfect, yes i did things wrong but this is way over the top and presumptuous at best", "did i really cause this to happen?", "did i abuse my SO into being this way? i didn't mean to trigger her/him". such rumination and unobvious abuse is torturous....and so mildly destroying of mentality for the victim it almost feels like they have been lowered into abuse, not dropped... the abuse becomes something of a life event that lingers as a life lesson, a cptsd reaction that MAY crop up at any time... such an indefinable abuse that it almost ingrains the abuse felt from the person with BPD onto the victim, and then the victim then goes around without a clear way to label the abuse as such a "life lesson" and applies this to his or her future relationships, becoming ever so much codependent or BPD like themselfs.

[@sarahthedreamcatcher8357]

DeAtHaToMiC88 the last part you wrote is exactly how I am feeling right now. My partner is trying his hardest to be back with me but I've been doing a lot of research and I have had nothing say anything about them being healed from this toxic behaviour I really don't know what to do.

[@DeAtHaToMiC88]

Sarah Oliver I'm sorry I wish I knew myself, if he is I therapy or is self awear of what he's doing then there is hope. I am no expert and I have no qualifications when I say this so please don't take what I say as fact it's based on my own opinion research and experience. I feel Sometimes the person with the BPD does too much damage to the non and there own mentality... The guilt and paranoia grows too great that they start not to separate facts from reality to the point there delusions become a part of there reality... That's I believe when the discard comes in. In that time if the BPD person can find someone else to get close too and use as an emotional support or a new supply they may never come back.

[@sarahthedreamcatcher8357]

DeAtHaToMiC88 thankyou for your reply I think the same as you. I actually feel sorry for him because I can see him self destruct. Every video I have watched is to say to get out. But I do believe some people with this are a product of there trauma. I am not saying all at all but surly if they recognise there behaviour there is hope. My partner has said to me he doesn't know why he does some of the things he does so could this be a coping mechanism he has learned.

[@jill2497]

Thank you so much for clarifying. Very helpful.

[@forestofthoughts4223]

One thing that actually makes me hate narcissists even more is the fact that they are not actually psychopaths but they behave worse than most psychopaths, like, they can fully recognize and empathize with other peoples suffering but because they have decided that you are so far below them they still dont mind seeing you suffer, while still being sensitive to what you think about them and being fully aware of your suffering. They want to watch you suffer and admire them at the same time. It's so messed up. And I also feel disgusted by people who pick the abusers side even when they are aware about the abuse, these cowards are part of the problem as well.

[@forestofthoughts4223]

While I know that there are psychopaths that do awful things, my theory is that most of the people who are psychopaths without narcissistic traits have no drive to hurt people and instead they try to avoid it. They dont relate to people much on an emotional level but it doesn't mean they want to be jerks. There are probably way more psychopaths in the world than we know of, and I can even imagine that some people are in long term relationships with them without even realizing.

[@Healthnut1909]

It would be easier to understand if you provided examples.

[@maatlove597]

Great information and so helpful. Thank you 🦋

[@CraigMalkin]

You're so welcome!

[@NAJAlliance]

This is excellent!

[@CraigMalkin]

Thank you!

[@nathaliedufour3891]

Story of my life. 55 and still trying to heal from a mother malgnant overt, boyfriends, " best " friend, covert narcs. They ruined my life. But my husband isn't, nor are my children, and they are my life support amidst all this unbelievable pain.

[@hunglikeaslave6793]

If you’re using your children as emotional support, it sounds like you may be the covert. Just saying. Our kids lean on US. not the other way around.

[@KikkiK89]

May all be blessed with peace, love, light, abundance, safety, happiness and care. May narcissism no longer exists on this planet. Amen.

[@Nuance_nusoul]

These are great! Please do more on covert narcissim 🙏🏽

[@Harry-qw5jv]

Dr Malkin, thank you very much for this one. I have been struggling with this so much. Like you said the term covert narcissism often seems to be used to describe that vulnerable narcissistic personality style where the grandiosity seems hidden or collapsed. I've been struggling so much to understand my mom who is not vulnerable at all but also does not abuse overtly. She has psychopathic and malignant narcissistic traits and her abuse is undeniably planned out and designed in such a way as to hide itself. She acts very sweet. But she is also extremely sadistic and dangerous. Thank you again

[@LesliWebandMediaSvcsonYouTube]

I found both videos helpful - I didn't find either to be invalidating to victims. I actually have known "both kinds" of people. My impression was overt are the ones who rage outward and covert are the ones who silently stew in their anger, not raging outward but going inward, like silent treatment and stonewalling, etc. So that was my interpretation - I never interpreted it to mean one is more ore less manipulative than the other. Regardless of the label and appropriate terms, I think the information has been helpful. Who coined the term "covert" anyway, out of curiosity?

[@Volleyballislife1234]

Your “Rethinking” is rejected by me. It’s really simple. Think of it in this visual metaphor if I can paint it right. Society is represented by a herd of simple sheep. Simple sheep need some protection. Protection from selfish wolves. Shepard’s protect the simple sheep from the selfish wolves, best they can. However, the most dangerous and selfish wolves of all, are not even wolves... appearance wise. These creative wolves wear the “sheeps’ skin” of their last victim in order to hide and to trick the Simple sheep and Shepard to gain easier, quicker, more effective access to their fuel and also, they have now more opportunities for denial of self accountabilities bc they were never really there. They lie and deny the existence of being a wolf to the sheep and even being a sheepskin dresser to their fellow wolves. They are the most dangerous enemy to society. All wolves have NPD. The wolves in sheep clothings are our Covert Narcissists. Society are the Simple Sheep Herd. The Shepard are the Super Empaths.

[@attheranch873]

MICHAEL MURPHY it’s more complex than that.

[@mrcanky6818]

It's not always physical abuse it's verbal abuse as well to the outside world their a mouse the inside world their a snake

[@victorkroud8839]

Hello Dr Malkin: I appreciate your explanation of covert narcissism. I began watching KZbin videos to sort out my life after 60 years of abuse from my parents. Very overt and violent behavior exhibited by my parents. This KZbin venue has been a Godsend. I was careful to marry a man who is even tempered (quick note- I'm a woman, I use a man's name online, as it gives me a greater feeling of safety ). But as I researched narcissism I started recognizing traits in my husband. Most specifically, lack of empathy. I like how you broke narcissism down to three traits. He has them all, including a propensity toward addictive behaviors. My husband isn't violent or physically abusive, but because of my past, any disfunction in our family was dumped on my shoulders. A burden I gladly carried because I was trained that anything negative is my fault. But now, hmmmm.... I recognize the gas lighting, the lies, lack of empathy (he's trying in that arena, but like you mentioned, it's forced) . We continue to live together in peace, but it's becoming more difficult because I'm always sad. I wonder if I'm too old to create a better life for myself or if we can improve. He doesn't seek counseling because if there's a problem, it's mine. Thanks for what you do. It's a light in the dark. VK

[@ladybug947]

Pay attention to anything that you seems off

[@RhodaStone]

It’s obvious to the person receiving it

[@sarahthedreamcatcher8357]

Do they know they are doing these things my narc portrays these behaviours when I don't show enough gratitude for his liking for a simple thing he may have done for me. He will call me horrible names and ignore me then he will go ghost for about a week then blame me. This time a woman has messaged me on FB telling me she thinks he is contacting her when we fall out. She has sent me all the messages and he is totally lying to her saying he is single now and we split a month ago. I sent him all the messages his reply was he wasn't going to meet her he needed his ego stroked and was feeling he need someone to talk to because he is feeling sad. I really need to try and understand why they self destruct and are they this way through some kind of trauma they have been through in there life please help.

[@canadianlady777]

Sarah the Dream Catcher ...my husband was caught out and then he freaked...He then tried to blame me by trying to commit suicide albeit in a very botched attempt...He could never have been successful because of the way he attempted it. He just needed to let me know he was hurting because I caught him out lying and deceiving me and he was only interested in punishing me...I was then enraged at this switch he did and had him Baker Acted...The police took him off to an addiction rehab...

[@KS-dx5ln]

That's my ex narcissist.....poor Timmer👹.... GOD saved me from the follower of his true father.....Satan.

[@barryrichardson3910]

I have been reading your books and watching your videos, you explanations make real sense and help me understand my relationship with my ex. Would you be willing to talk about how such personalities can contribute to Parental Alienation? Thanks.

[@jakezo369]

Dr thank you for your videos. I feel I have been abused all these years by an narc mother but am not sure and try hard to explain it to others. I am afraid I sound like an idiot who is attacking the person whom I am supposed to love and respect. I am very sure about my abuse, but don't know how to explain it. Small incidents in my life are enough to convince me but I am afraid if others will be able to see the way I do.

[@gillyjaynes8558]

I have just found you Dr Craig, and realise that my mother is a Covert Narcissist (she is 93 and I am 67) Throughout my life I have been put down, belittled, made to feel I was stupid and inconsequential. I thought it was because I looked like my paternal grandmother whom my mother despised, and therefore she despised me, but I know differently now. My middle sister doesn't seem to have been treated in this way at all, but my younger sister is the recipient of it now, as I still am. Having this knowledge will not change anything, but will give me the understanding to move forward. How very sad that I have no feelings for this person only a sense of duty. I can't thank you enough for shedding light on a situation which I thought was of my making and try as I might I was unable to resolve. You have answered so many of the questions and although I am not in a position to walk away I now feel in control.

[@everglade345]

These videos are so illuminating! My brother and I grew up an abusive family, I believe my grandmother had BPD or NPD, and my mother has severe trauma and also a BPD diagnosis. My brother became an abusive narcissist (his psychiatrist says he has BPD with narcissistic traits), and I became an alcoholic (sober 9 years now) and struggled with ADHD and ASD, now getting treatment. I wonder why one sibling developed narcissism and the other didn't? When I was in active addiction I showed narcissistic behaviours like selfishness and denial, but I went through intensive 12 step work and therapy and am a lot better (but must still watch my triggers which have led to abusive behaviour in the past - something which I have worked on in earnest as I couldn't face the thought of becoming like the people who hurt me and took my childhood). At 42 years old I've finally gotten the courage and wherewithal to un-enmesh and walk away from them. I have a wonderful husband and good friendships with healthy people.

[@brandonmcalpin9228]

Isn’t the consensus among respected scholars that Vulnerable and Grandiose are mental states of the same pwNPD, rather than different subtypes of NPD? Kernberg, Kohut, Levy, AL Pincus, Mark Lukowitsky, etc, etc. Aside from their peer reviewed articles *chefs kiss*, I know this because I live it. Anyway. Yes! Thank you. Covert and overt are presentations of grandiosity, not abuse. You can be Overtly grandiose, while covertly vulnerable. Or Covertly grandiose, while overtly vulnerable. Meanwhile, vulnerable and grandiose work the exact same way. The only issue I take with what you said is, Dark Triad traits.. That’s not actually thing, is it? Definitely not in the DSM, not like that matters. I mean, that’s fine! Scapegoat something that isn’t real. Lol. Anything to get these people to stop their smear campaigning against NPD. It’s ridiculous how many people HATE Narcissists, yet they don’t know the first thing about it. Most people couldn’t point one out even if you gave them multiple tries. You guys should really fix the DSM-5 though. I can’t imagine how many actual Narcissists are walking around, misdiagnosed with major depression or bipolar or even BPD. Which is funny, because I bet so many of these Anti-Narc people, are close to a misdiagnosed Narcissist 😂 Imagine that.

[@thepaintedlady4637]

This was really helpful, really clarified a lot for me. Discussion of the covert type is really widespread, every self-described expert on KZbin seems to be weighing in on this. It was interesting to hear the distinction between covert narcissism and covert abuse. That makes more sense to me, to refer to the covertly abusive behaviors rather than blanket labelling it as a type of narcissism. Because in truth, these types of abusers could be APD, BPD, NPD etc... I have noted that many people who claim they are describing a covert narc, actually sound more like they are describing a psychopath. I definitely get why people want to call it covert narcissism - because the ugly truth about the person is never evident when you first meet them, they hide themselves so well and you don't see it coming or get the red flags initially. It is only after a longer period of contact that the abuse starts in a progressive fashion, usually with mild transgressions at first which test your tolerance levels for it. And these individuals do seem to be really good at managing their public image and perceptions, so a lot of the harm they are doing goes on behind the scenes and seems to target specific individuals.

[@ozzyoz5210]

Whoa I've seen this in my spouse. It's hard for me to believe what has happened! How dangerously naive I've been !

[@macaroniandcheese8892]

Edited comment.

[@susanpollock3153]

Would you have any tips on how to articulate the covert,.insidious type of abuse to legal professionals? I'm finding it difficult to describe and prove.

[@usedabusedandmisunderstood8205]

@Not my nameOnly someone who has lived it will understand what you went through. Pure insanity. That is why no contact is the rule.

[@LisaRichards_123]

It seems KZbinrs have re-defined “narcissist” as “anyone that does anything I don’t like.”

[@WhateverNullPointer]

Yes, seems like it! Also a lot of narcissistic professional victims

[@Paarthurnaxdova]

My ex Dismissive Avoidant has all of these traits. Very quiet, sneaky, never gave me my needs of communication, making me feel valued etc. after four years I discovered solid evidence that he was closet gay and had been sleeping with men the whole time, lied to my face about who and what he was every day. Had zero remorse for making me suicidal from all the emotional abuse and ghostings. Unbelievable how these people are capable of hurting good humans and not caring.

[@elsahelgason]

I don’t like to hides myself feelings all the times, that’s who I am .

[@shcap3]

I see him saying what he thinks is the right thing to say, in public and sometimes in the home. I see him like my 5 year old, maybe she has picked up on his traits, although her first year wasn't spent around him. He struggles to problem solve, he cannot express emotions in a healthy objective way. Nor can see my emotions and how they came to be without getting uspet thinking I'm attacking his character. He is always always on the defense, trying to defend himself. And we can never solve problems, as he doesn't take to critism, Ive even stated, "when I talk about what you've done and how that affected me, I am simply talking to be understood." I can objectify my emotions see to solve the disconnect, the issues. But he gets overly emotional about what I say.he acts like he's confident, but he will bring down everyone around him and I can see his insecurities a mile deep within him. He won't acknowledge his emotions. fear and shame drive him.

[@musicandeye]

Mine sucked so badly, he was only lucky because I was young, naive, in love and believed in the goodness of people. Now I'm so trained, no narc can pass by me. Mine is psychopath sadist. It was so much fun, puke. Thank God I'm not dumb anymore. Cunning. Careful. Planning. Piece of shit.

[@sirensexy27]

I'm high on the echo scale and have survived the tetra. I struggle severely with self worth. Even when knowing I shouldn't.

[@wattlebough]

So covert narcissism combined with the dark tetrad is what we would call “covert **malignant** narcissism”. I’d love to know where the line is between covert malignant narcissism and psychopathy. I can’t tell the difference, unless maybe psychopathy is everything in the dark tetrad just minus the narcissism?

[@lisashafer346]

Thank you for further explaining the differences, especially for highlighting the dark tetrad traits. You just described my psycho stalker neighbor that I could never catch in the act, and at least one of my family members, with that dark tetrad explanation. It doesn't change any of the outer circumstances or their behavior, but somehow it really helps me when I understand such behavior from a more removed point of view. It's also validating to know that there are enough people who know about such behavior and disorders that cause such behavior, that there is a name for the traits, a lot of peer reviewed clinical research, etc. because it seems less likely they can successfully gaslight someone who has been made aware of such things. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. These videos can't be easy to squeeze into your schedule, but when you make time to share your knowledge in such an accessible way, it makes a huge difference in people's lives. i'm sincerely grateful.

[@lynnsalzwedel6812]

The narc I'm with, I swear that he isn't self aware at all. Yes I believe he lies and knows that he is purposely hurting me. He has been a drinker since adolescence and I think this stunts the mental growth of anyone with alcoholism. I have stayed because and it has become quite rare now that I see what I call Richard versus Rick. I just can't figure out if he does know exactly what he's doing all the time or if he's going into a second or third stage of Narcissistic personality disorder. I am the super empath and can not keep my mouth shut when he spouts lies, projects, gas lights and I would go to my death before I lay down and submit to injustice. However I have felt that I may possibly be in danger... Is the rare human I call Richard a total fake or is there any humanity, love, empathy, etc inside this person at all?

[@69birdboy]

I think everyone has elements of this or virtually everyone...especially the narc but...when do we know if it becomes pathological.

[@rebeccacorrea5811]

Dr. Malkin. I handed your book to my now Ex. Partner 3 years ago and asked him if he might be able to see how some of those behaviors were similar to how his father treated him (which he always talked about.) Now 2.5 years after separating from him I have had to defend my case more than 250 items on our docket. I just found out today that he has filed a restraining order against me submitting 575 pages and requesting 32 hours of court time to have his case and witnesses heard. I can not tell the court my story any more and I owe 2 years of salary to my former lawyer. I almost shut down in court today and do not want to attend moving forward. I can’t do this anymore.

[@anuksunamun0494]

Can a covert narcissist get help? Because my mother is one, and me and my sister were through "hel" in ours childhood with her. Although she is not so bad at times but when she is tired, oh my, we all, still have to stay out of her way, and I'm 39 in August and still strugle on how to talk to her. It's always about her, can I do the "cold stone" tactic by ignoring or dismiss her arguments. What wil help a narcissist become "normal" again, if I could say it like that???

[@nryane]

Not all covert NPD individuals are physically abusive. My experience with the Nex, of almost 30 years proved that, while he was emotionally abusive, he took pride in NEVER being physically abusive! “I never hit you!” was his “ badge of honor”! That said, my trauma therapist warned me to never tell the Nex I was leaving, as that could precipitate physical violence. Apparently, it is more common that coverts ARE physically abusive. Thank you for this video.

[@AnnK.-vu2yp]

It turns out my father was a covert narcissist, took me 35 years to realize it tho. He was physically abusive, but only when I complained about being mistreated. It didn’t even have to be about him. Tell him I’m being mistreated by the babysitter? Beat. Stand up for myself against a classmate after months and months of being bullied? Beat. But tell him I’m tired of him treating me badly? Hit in the face. No one would ever believe me. But I know what happened to me and I have the PTSD to prove it.

[@robertandrocky5004]

The only way to,spot them is to live with them for years . Even then they wear mask . And abuse in indirect ways by covering up by : religion, knowledge , authority in some ways .

[@barbararay1389]

Coverts do have trouble presenting, thats why we ( the victims), are being abused covertly, behind closed doors.

[@joebobpoker6478]

I have just began listening to you. I am hoping you are going in the direction that todays therapists , etc. are not aware of how covert abuse is done or even what it is. In fact therapists are easily taken in and begin to help the abuser .These people do not use or threaten physical abuse , it is much worse. It goes so deep and it seems to be natural to the abuser that even their victim's have no clue that their abuser is a bad person and that they are being abused. They are control freaks and they rule their "kingdom of covert abuse" and the leader of course of their group , and they simply know ways to cause the most damage and never be suspected......Just finished the video , I am seeing we may have differences but that we are for sure on the same track. Am I understanding you correctly?