How to Talk to Progressive Christians (Part 2) With Greg Koukl

[@self-publishinghelp8596]

Alisa is a model interviewer. Love the active listening posture. She's really engaged and not just planning the next thing she wants to say. She gives input but never interrupts. I need to practice this skill in real life.

[@ONSTAGEMUSICPODCAST]

I also found from others that shaking your head YES in acknowledging is patronizing. Just say “Yes!” Occasionally. I’ve been accused of patronizing the person because I’m nodding and it’s like “Are you listening or patronizing me?”, so what I do is say “Ohh..” and then maybe a nod or few then when I hear something interesting I say “Wow! Excellent!” And wink. Alicia reminds me of the dog or the cow in the back window nodding. Very annoying

[@duncescotus2342]

Oh yeah, she's skilled, but that's not the same as forthright. "Where is the skilled debater of this age?" Paul asks in 1 Corinthians 1:20.

[@paulrivalto1974]

Where ever Jesus went He told the absolute, pure truth of all that concerned the individual that He was encountering. Then Jesus was not always warm and fuzzy about His delivery of that truth. He was very matter of fact with the woman at the well. He called the Pharisees vipers or snakes preying on others. He was even physically violent in running the money changers from His Father's house as He gave the truth of what the Father's house was there for! Yet Christ could be very meek in His presentation of the truth as well! The truth never wavered or changed yet Christ designed His delivery of that truth to whomever was in front of Him or present to hear that truth. You and I will learn to surrender to God's promise to give us the utterances of our mouths as we simply obey His guidance in each encounter. Remember, He alone knows what is needed in each encounter we have with others. Surrender then to His knowing in obedience as instructed us in Ephesians 2:10: For we are God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. We are never saved by works of any kind yet, we are saved for good works prepared and orchestrated by God, alone!

[@jaquirox6579]

The perk of not finding this great video until three months after it’s published, is that part two is already available! 😍

[@GraceAlone50]

I feel that way finding it 2 years later!

[@jaquirox6579]

@@GraceAlone50 :)

[@MizBee28]

This was so GOOD, riveting. I wouldn't mind a part 3.

[@julielee2600]

I kept hearing about this book from different people I listen to on KZbin or podcasts. I immediately bought it while listening to this video. I’ve just started it, and I’m telling all my mom friends they have to read it and get ready to train their children. I just got a message today from one who just bought it. We as parents need this tool to be able to give our children the tools to not be talked out of their faith by people who don’t even know what they believe. Thank you for all you do on your channel!

[@jdog5642]

This is brilliant! I wish I could remember this stuff 😀

[@jeffreyyauger4146]

Wonderful interview. Thank you for part1 and part 2!

[@donnahenry3772]

I have been reading your book based on the first conversation with Alisa. I appreciate having the tools in my hands. It's already pretty marked up!

[@bishoptom1826]

Invaluable. Will watch it many times in order to navigate conversations with Univ. students with grace. Thank you!!

[@patticarey9016]

Love STR and Greg's clear thinking. I've used so much of the materials on their website.

[@Galloway278]

Just ordered the book. For the last year I’ve noticed the progressive path our church is going and we have a lunch meeting with our pastor in 2 weeks. I have my specific questions planned and support for the Bible’s teachings vs. the culture. Ought to be interesting.

[@cynthiashone4016]

The subject of tolerance and being right as Greg explained has always perplexed me in that most are closed from the get go, being very guarded not looking for truth but rather wanting to either continue on their path of choices and or defense of their beliefs and values. It is so disappointing with the degree of blame shifting becoming so prominent that your love for them is totally missed and the relationship either dies or is estranged.

[@jeremybeavon4476]

Jesus said: "I am the truth." This means that anyone who is searching for truth will eventually even with Jesus, which is pretty cool. The main truth that people are hiding from is that there is something wrong with them. If there is nothing wrong with someone, then Jesus is irrelevant to them. So in order to make Jesus relevant to someone, they need to accept the truth that there is something wrong with them and that is really hard in today's culture. I do prison ministry and it's great because everyone know there's something wrong. Then the challenge is convincing them that they can be forgiven.

[@margaret3785]

@@jeremybeavon4476This is exactly how I see it!

[@jaquirox6579]

Oh man! I need his book, he’s wonderful.

[@prayersquad3391]

The book is AMAZING.

[@Dan-ch8kv]

Tactics is one of those go to books that I return to at least yearly.

[@jaquirox6579]

@@Dan-ch8kv Yah?!! I still haven’t bought it, just purely from forgetting. 🤦🏼‍♀️ I need to though, I’m glad to hear it’s worth it for you guys too! 🙏🏽

[@caprimungeam662]

Loving this information ..... ??? What do you do when someone won't/can't answer the questions?

[@maxxblack1525]

I like the Sermon on the mount. It is so good.

[@saskiascott8181]

Right??

[@beckybates543]

Really enjoyed these conversations! Thank you!

[@jenniebugs1]

I have known this man for several years now. He is not a Christian (I am) and I have often shared my faith with him. The first time I did he listened carefully (didn’t interrupt) and when I had passionately finished he told me that he had founded a church which he named The Church of Ultimate Truth (or C.U.L.T.) for short. So I avidly asked him questions about it. I could not believe his answers! Apparently, according to him mankind is evolving spiritually over eons of time. At the moment (he said) mankind is like children in the playground who fight and tussle with each other, but in some indeterminate time we will evolve into pure love and reach a god-like status. I won’t go into all that I said in return, but suffice to say, the bottom line is he does believe in the concept of a God, but actually got agitated and angry with me when I told him he could know God on a personal level through Jesus Christ. He has written reams of papers on his philosophy but he never shares his ‘truth’ with anyone much and admits he is the only member of his ‘church’. He accepts and endorses my faith, but there is no way I can penetrate his wall. He is dying of heart failure now and I so want him to know Jesus, but he is adamantly sticking to his belief that nothing exists after death. I have now purchased the Tactics book to see if it can help me get through to him (apart from praying for him ongoingly). It’s SO frustrating not being able to get through to him!

[@daniellewardd]

Did you get through to him or did he died unsaved?

[@johnarmstrong1491]

This discussion was a real blessing.

[@Joshuaandcalebsc]

This is great! Thank you both for all you do

[@amandapanda316]

Someone at my women's group this morning asked how to talk to their college age children. I'm going to take tactics to the church service with me tomorrow to see if she would like to borrow it from me. I just finished it a few days ago and I think it would be so helpful for her!

[@FronteirWolf]

Thanks for the discussion you've really helped me with being more relaxed and less stressed when it comes to talking to a housemate about Christianity, she is clearly interested, but 8s still rejecting it. I felt really scared with being the primary person she talks to about this, but I feel more able to handle the conversations now.

[@CynthiaMoon23]

What’s interesting is traditional cultures did and still do want the girl to be a virgin, not because they wanted to restrict the woman, but because, in the case of pregnancy, they wanted the MAN to take responsibility for the child.

[@prayersquad3391]

So true. Logic is against the law now though. It's all about FEELINGS "whoa whoa whoa whoa feelings."

[@FronteirWolf]

I was talking with a non-Christian and suffering was brought up as a reason for non-belief. I asked "Why does suffering show that God doesn't exist?" She avoided the question and got round it by saying how bad suffering is. When I repeated the question she got annoyed with me. People often won't want to engage with answering questions. That's okay, keep asking questions if you have the platform to.

[@EdKidgell]

Excellent. Buying the book...

[@jackjones3657]

Former Crystal Cathedral head pastor Robert Schuller is known to have said he didn't believe sin really existed as we understood it in the Bible. That was in the 1980s! This relativistic Christianity has been brewing in Western churches for a long time.

[@prayersquad3391]

Thats true. Nothing new under the sun.

[@micheleh5269]

The wisdom that comes from above is first of all pure, then peace loving

[@anthonybarber3872]

Good, good discussion! Go get em tigers!

[@mrsjaydie]

Great interview!

[@lsredden1]

Awesome discussion. Thanks, Alisa!

[@jazerlights8870]

God Bless you Alisa! Amen!

[@jked7463]

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[@jamisonrayned.7052]

Ordering his book... really enjoyed this 2 part interview.

[@SusanMorales]

Great discussion 😊

[@Hyumifu]

Part 3 please!!! 😭😭😭

[@joycelopez2151]

Loved this!

[@thefaith01]

Just reminded me I need to reread his tactics book. Haven't read it since it was first released I think

[@bereantrb]

Pick up the new 10th anniversary edition. Totally rewritten and expanded.

[@LadyCathryn]

The tactics books I prefer are Clausewitz, Jominey, Fredrick the Great and Sun Tzu (all of which are on military tactics. We need to take seriously we are in spiritual WARFARE and niceties don't work.

[@bereantrb]

@@LadyCathryn Have you read Greg's book?

[@LadyCathryn]

@@bereantrb No. I don't feel I need it. I've dealt with "progressive" Christians when I was involved with the LGBT community for 11 years. I was getting nowhere being nice.

[@bereantrb]

@@LadyCathryn "Being nice" isn't the message. I had a feeling you hadn't read it.

[@marcusanthony488]

Here's the issue: when you come into a conversation withe the Truth, you don't entertain the possibility that YOU may have something to learn.

[@nicholasprice6902]

Marcus Anthony doesn’t everyone on all sides of every issue believe they know the truth? Human beings find it very difficult to live a lie. Sure, the degree may vary and open-mindedness and listening skills are certainly lost arts, but does that mean we shouldn’t converse and at least attempt to explain our views?

[@marcusanthony488]

@@nicholasprice6902 Sure

[@nickthombley675]

Wow wow Wow!!!!!! Great instruction!

[@kerik9512]

Excellent!!! Thank you

[@Galloway278]

Can any of you out there recommend a sound Bible study I can do? I have just left my church- for all the reasons this video talks about and it does sadden me that the teachings became so confused. I need to correct the “off” teachings and get back to the truth.

[@johnwatt2748]

The 5 Day Bible Reaing program is excellent. You can print it off the Inter6

[@aldrinvendt8524]

So, this is and part 1 are the first videos I've seen of yours, and as an atheist, I obviously have a lot of thoughts. Despite what you said near the end, it feels like you are trying to win the argument or change the person's mind rather than just have a discussion with them. Next, I am very surprised by what Greg said about christians being more willing to admit their uncertainty. Maybe it's the way he phrased the question, having doubts is very different from saying I could be wrong about the whole thing. But in my experience, christians are never willing to admit that a God may not exist. I haven't looked at the rest of the channel, but I think having a video about how to converse with an atheist would be helpful too. Quoting bible verses at us and saying things like, "you know morality is objective." just annoys us more than anything. Which I guess if that's your goal, then congrats... Anyway, if anyone wants to practice stuff from these two videos, I'm always down for a good chat, and I usually stay pretty civilized, lol.

[@Hyumifu]

So, what are your views on morality then? 😆

[@aldrinvendt8524]

@@Hyumifu Quite the complex question. I'll assume that you are asking about subjective vs objective. If not, forgive me. My view is that morality is subjective, but once a morality is chosen there are objective ways to achieve that goal. For instance, it is my view that we should minimize human suffering. Nothing in the universe says that this is a good or bad thing, the rest of the universe doesn't care, so it is simply my subjective opinion that we should cause as little human suffering as possible. However, if we both agree on this goal, then we can come to objective conclusions on how to act, ie we shouldn't go around killing people. Hopefully that made sense!

[@redeemablesoul]

Wow...I'm not an apologist.. just prophetically inclined..and I can sense eventhough you want to debate Christian's.. you are looking for what we have..otherwise what are you looking for on this platform...

[@aldrinvendt8524]

@@redeemablesoul Surprisingly, I'm not actually that interested in debating or de-converting people. I'm just genuinely interested in learning how other people think and why they think that way. And improving communication with people I disagree with is very important to me, which is what made me click on this video. A little disappointed it wasn't quite for people of my beliefs, but it wasn't a complete waste of time. I'll confess that I really enjoy having discussions with people about this stuff, but with the quarantine still in effect, it's kind of hard to find new people to talk to. So maybe that's why I commented. Also, could you elaborate on "what we have" means?

[@nicholasprice6902]

Aldrin Vendt I’m game for a discussion. However, YT is a terrible venue. Would you like to exchange emails?

[@anthonybarber3872]

I've actually encountered someone who said "evil doesn't exist!"

[@ardbegthequestion]

and what did they say when you asked, "what do you mean by that?" I bet seemingly implying that they are foolish because of what you may think they meant, may bite you when you actually listen and consider how they would respond, even if you don't agree. Most likely this is an equivocation error in communication and then a bait and switch often ensues. Like - "Oh Hitler is bad you say, then you believe in God..." Yes, most folks simply think "evil" means - profoundly immoral and wicked. But if you unpack people's judgements on evil, a lot of times you'd get this - profound immorality and wickedness, especially when regarded as a supernatural force. So if I were to grant someone's use of the latter definition, then I too would say that I don't believe that that evil exists. But then acknowledge how I could see how someone would attribute immoral actions to some mysterious dark force.

[@nothanks4469]

This couple tried to prove that and then were murdered by ISIS: www.outsideonline.com/2405861/tajikistan-bike-murders-jay-austin-lauren-geoghegan

[@ardbegthequestion]

@@nothanks4469 - I skimmed the article. Presuming you actually mean Jay, was this the proof he was claiming, “Evil is a make-believe concept,” Austin wrote on his blog on April 5, 2018, day 273 of the trip. “By and large, humans are kind. Self-interested sometimes, myopic sometimes, but kind. Generous and wonderful and kind. No greater revelation has come from our journey than this.” I agree that he seems to be making the argument that most people are inherently good. I bet if you had a chance to have asked him though, he'd probably say there are certainly bad actors in the world. I would probably guess he's writing hyperbolically as they had found acts of generosity when they didn't expect it. I hope your not saying he got murdered because he thought this though. Like somehow denying evil is what, in part led to his death. Maybe he was so naive, that he didn't put a higher regard to safety. Maybe... My point, my current belief, the evil is really just the circumstances in the life of the murderer that led him to become such a hate-filled terrible human (and ironic that it was most likely very much religiously influenced), not some "the devil made him do it". It's actually worse and more tragic when we have to face our shortcoming and how we can become dangerous to society when trampled down ourselves. This is probably what the Christian should actually appeal to as "original sin" or "sins of the father".

[@nothanks4469]

@@ardbegthequestion I stand by the fact that this man was naive beyond belief and paid dearly for it. His beliefs didn't "cause" his death per se, but I have no doubt that they most likely skewed his sense of self-preservation and vigilance. Too bad he dragged his girlfriend into it. Regardless, if morality exists, evil exists. That is obvious.

[@ardbegthequestion]

@@nothanks4469 - well what do you mean by evil?

[@MichaelMechsner]

I didn’t see the link in the description to Greg Koukl’s PragerU lecture or the link to his 45 minute lecture on tolerance - am I missing something or is there a reason the links could not be provided?

[@S62r]

One thing that gives Mormons confidence in their departure on certain terminologies is modern revelation including prophets that actually talked with god and ancient prophets. Just like anciently God still calls prophets today and authorizes his representatives on earth via transmission of the priesthood. The Bible is great but where is the biblical precedent for relying only on a book as opposed to continuous revelation direct from the source?

[@FrostinthePines]

Man there needs to be one of these for talking with conservatives. "Disagreement = Not believing the Bible?"

[@yvonnecrozier4536]

I'm genuinely curious, what do you mean by that?

[@FrostinthePines]

@@yvonnecrozier4536 I mean that whenever I talk with conservatives and fundamentalists, a common claim when I disagree with them is that I just don't believe the Bible. Which is nonsense. I just don't agree with their interpretation. There's a basic lack of comprehension and understanding of the role of interpretation.

[@taylorbaxter2006]

Paul the Apostle speaks of moral relativism when he refers to matters of conscience.

[@mytreasuredcreations]

I bought the audiobook. 😃

[@onepetalleft]

Liberal agnostic here. Serious question. Are y’all really encountering that many progressives who are initiating these types of conversations with you? Where the progressives are the ones trying to prove a particular point or advance a particular view? I’ve watched all of part 1 and 2 with Alisa and Greg, and most of what I understood from Greg is that his tactics seem to be rooted in a defensive approach, where you’re literally defending against an accusation (such as the one about being judgmental or bigoted); as opposed to an offensive approach, where you might be the one advancing a particular point. I just can’t figure out how this would work unless liberals/progressives (religious or not) are the ones approaching you to start a conversation with a particular point or even an accusation. Does that really happen a lot? Or is the idea that you (the conservative folks) would be the ones initiating these defense-oriented conversations with progressives?

[@jeffmuller1489]

No matter how, Conversations happen. The point is that Conservatives, by nature, want to defend what has been true for millenia against so-called progressive fallacies that challenge long held truths, but instead, should be making progressives prove and support what they say, and more often than not progressives have no facts to back up what they say because it's more emotional than intellectual.

[@hwd7]

40:00. Love Defined.

[@jessitabonita]

27:55 If only Greg would have ended that sentence, “you have your small ‘t,’ I have my small ‘t,’” with, “let’s have a T party!” 🤷🏻‍♀️😂

[@jeffreymorgan2417]

Does Alisa have any videos where she talks to a progressive Christian? That would be good to watch

[@PSYWARRIOR71]

That would be impossible. Progressive Christians don't exist.

[@jeffreymorgan2417]

@@PSYWARRIOR71 well, it's a video entitled "how to talk to progressive Christians," so it would be a nice compliment to this video to see an actual conversation with a person who aligns with that description, whatever one might think about the status of that person's faith.

[@grayexperience]

@@jeffreymorgan2417 I also crave this. I see so much talk on KZbin, but if they want to use it as a helpful platform, then please (to Alisa) don't just help those only in your own fold!

[@robertlight5227]

Do you have any physical evidence for JC?

[@ardbegthequestion]

Though certainly a lot of people think relative truth is all about "you be you bro...", I think this whole part of the conversation around "relativism" may be a bit wandering into strawman territory. Seemingly like a theme in these discussions, my observation/judgement is that ironically, definition of terms seem to slide around, which is OK, as long as it's understood. But I think all too often, we all can slip between what we mean and what is understood. So that being said: Objective truth is a bit different than (Christian) absolute truth - something is absolutely true in all ways, at all times in the same way - like god himself purportedly. Objective truth is true in regards to a stated or understood goal/perspective/frame of reference. Take American Baseball... Does it absolutely exist or objectively exist? Ask a person from 1750... Is it objectively true that instant replay is available to settle a disputed call? Ask a person in 2013... Does Baseball even need to exist? Take an apple. What color is the Golden Delicious? Is it objectively yellow or absolutely yellow? Ask a dog, ask a tree, ask god (who should probably be able to "see" outside of the human visual color spectrum). Yes, for the most part, we make truth statements that are objectively true and allow us to live and continue to move about our lives holding the "truth". But there are probably a lot of ways we could render these "false", just by changing the frame of reference. But maybe more accurately, showing that what one thinks is "T" true is really only a small sliver of an emergent property of reality that we have the unique benefit of being able to understand and communicate to others. To be able to understand absolute truth, would indeed like the professor was touted as saying and like scoffed at by these two, only the maximally everything god Christianity seems to portray would be able to know absolute truth.

[@grayexperience]

Yes! Thank you!

[@hwd7]

34:30. Tolerance defined.

[@jamilabrownie]

That was a great moment

[@lesliemukwedeya1295]

Thank you

[@EdKidgell]

Is there a Rosetta Stone doc showing some common terms and their definitions that christians use and which are also used by Mormons, JW's, Prog Christians and any others we might come across?

[@jeffmuller1489]

Rosetta Stone, lol

[@tomkeller6982]

I always appreciate these podcasts. But why are you editing them on "FAST FORWARD?" Why are you speaking so fast? How do you expect the listeners to hear and make sense of what you've said? How are you benefiting by doing this? I for one do not think it's working.

[@jeffmuller1489]

Love is defined in the Bible.

[@jmdsservantofgod8405]

Everybody has a book!….. how liberal!🤪🤣😂

[@mattparsons6487]

Whaddo you meme by that

[@CynthiaMoon23]

Postmoderns really do A LOT of mental gymnastics.

[@saskiascott8181]

I did a lot of mental gymnastics as an evangelical. Humans are quite contradictory creatures.

[@marcusanthony488]

How to talk to evangelicals who don't know how to listen!

[@CB-cc1wo]

Why assume that everyone can be "converted" to Christianity. Jesus gave us another option in dealing with people who are set in their beliefs... Mat 7:6 "Never give what is holy to dogs or throw your pearls before pigs. Otherwise, they will trample them with their feet and then turn around and attack you."

[@MrSASA51]

A great advert for progressive Christianity....

[@taylorbaxter2006]

Gender dysphoria has a high suicide rate because the culture is judgmental, not because of gender dysphoria itself. And just so you know, not all individuals who gender transition have had gender dysphoria.

[@amarcaccini7177]

This is a guide for bad faith arguments. You're not seeking real connection, just defense and redirection. "Get in the drivers seat". God is in the drivers seat.

[@scottharrison812]

Interesting about tolerance tho’ … but how tolerant have Christians been of others throughout the history of Christianity (not only of ideologies or religions)? How tolerant was Luther of the Jews, or Calvin of the Anabaptists, or Catholics of Protestants or Protestants of Catholics or Puritans of Quakers? Seems disingenuous for you to be lecturing people on ‘tolerance’ given the intolerance which is rife amongst fundamentalist Christians and Christians in the past?!

[@timisa58]

Anyone teaching false doctrine is not of the lord(?). So, disagreement more than implies someone thinks someone is going to hell to be tortured for eternity. Nothing more hateful than that.

[@Martha77]

They do not see the problem of relativism because they are not born again. They need the gospel.

[@samdung5630]

I would love to see YOU have a conversation with a Progressive Christian. Why are YOU avoiding that?

[@grayexperience]

From a true place of learning, I also would love to see more debates/discussions concerning truth and religion and, in particular, progressive vs fundamental. Unfortunately all I get when searching KZbin is Alisa Childers and her friends. And that's fine but where are the two sided conversations?

[@angietorok8389]

Relativism always makes me think of The Taming of the Shrew. It seems the whole world has become the shrew.

[@realnumber_9]

Progress Christian? What does that even mean? Either you understand the doctrine, or maybe at least have a philosophy of the doctrine. I don't see a progressive gateway

[@rochellecaffee1417]

Jesus asked questions because He loved them, and was serving. He actually cared what they seemed to need. . I have dealt with my own needs deeply. Most people have some basic needs, that are common. If you don’t know your own troubles, then it’s not possible to understand others. The issue that is brought up is not equality, but equity. The ideology of equity is the Marxist view. Equity has been made known to be the issue. But these 2 words are not the same. When i get into a conversation with someone who wants to fight, i get quiet and listen for the principle or main issue in conversation. I am not interested in trying to prove a point to someone who can not understand Spiritual truth. Oil and water. Someone is steeped in human wisdom or trends are really not worth the time. If someone will not accept the Gospel, then there is no point to share more. All relativism is subjective. Subjectivity is not objectivism which is not Truth that never changes. Gravity is not relative…..sometimes it works and sometimes not? All physical Laws, are truth and never changes. There are spiritual Laws as well. These are Laws like sowing and reaping….contemporary as GIGO. God’s Laws are black and white. That is why Grace is given to allow life to continue under these never changing Laws. Human wisdom is relative. God’s wisdom is not. But in Hebrews 4? I think it says that God saw the need for the New Covenant and grace was given to us everywhere to all who believe by faith in Christ. Create questions to ask them about their thoughts on things that don’t change. In Jeremiah 9? God tells us to know Him. Do you like it when someone comes into your house unwelcome? Jesus said TO THE JEWS, do not condemn…only God can condemn to death. But we are told that as Christians we “have the mind of Christ and do judge all things, which means to EXAMINE ALL THINGS. Does someone examine the produce at the grocery store? Does someone examine who you allow into your home? Is that ok? That’s why you must deal with all of your own insecurities before you can STAND in the TRUTH. According to your views of intolerance you are correct. But i know that i have a different point of view. What is intolerant about me? Is it part of the issue. Do not let them take you into the weeds and away from the issue or principle. That is the most common thing that happens in a conflict. I speak for myself only. You are all over the place with issues. Too much info. But God also gave Paul a thorn in the flesh. Why don’t Christians do like God says and “go to someone in private?” If you believe all the Bible, why don’t you protect all of it?

[@killajedi907]

What do I do if my girlfriend is a progressive Christian :(

[@samuelwatkinson]

Whatever you do, do NOT follow the superficial advice of Koukl here of contenting yourself with pulling the "self-refuting" line out of your apologetics toolbox. Instead, try to sympathize with why she might have become a progressive Christian in the first place, aiming not necessarily to re-convert her back to conservative Christianity.

[@PSYWARRIOR71]

Realize that she's pretending to be a Christian while being a genuine leftist. Then dump her.

[@susanzumback7711]

😂😂😂👌

[@lifefreedom7269]

@@PSYWARRIOR71 hahaha... Good one!

[@tracys4161]

I was faced with the same issue a few years back. I miss her still.

[@CynthiaMoon23]

Ad hominem attacks, they’re called

[@ljmad2493]

Greg & Prager U video kzbin.info/www/bejne/e3-ue3V6grSdqpY

[@stephanmarcus448]

10:00 There you go. The same sex marriage debate was about gay men and women getting the same affirmation of their relationships that hetero couples get. Period. It was not about paedophilia, polygamy or incest. The anti camp refused to clearly state their objections to same sex marriage, but relied on the incoherent definition argument* and lumping gay relationships in with practices most people find disgusting. Do believers find Richard Dwakins equation of instructing children in your faith with child abuse a convincing argument? No, you think it is crude and insulting. (As do I) So why do you think would a proponent of marriage equality respond positively to a strawman argument that implies that same sex marriage is the same as child marriage? That not a stone in the shoe but a fist to the face. *Including "bodily union" in the definition would have prohibited all marriages between hetero couples incapable of coitus through accident or birth defect and put in jeopardy of annulment any marriage between voluntarily celibate couples. William Craig's "debates" are as enlightening as a robocall. He just stands there and reads from a script often irrelevant to the question he was asked. He is smug, condescending and loves the ad hominem questioning of the questioner's knowledge or expertise. And the Kalam cosmological argument is honestly a tedious exercise in question begging. He is only convincing to people desperate to be convinced.

[@duncescotus2342]

How do I talk to regressive Christians? I thought I'd ask you all since you are.

[@jeffmuller1489]

What do you mean by "Regressive"?

[@duncescotus2342]

@@jeffmuller1489 Going backward to Calvinism/Cessationism aka "Reformed" belief, now nearly 500 years old.

[@jeffmuller1489]

@@duncescotus2342 Thank you for responding and clarifying. I'll just assume your question is sincere. I'm not regressive or progressive, but I'll try help you here. It's difficult to talk to any person about the falicies of their belief systems, but religious people, whether spiritual or otherwise, are particularly tough because they are typically set in their ways, brainwashed, stubborn or disinterested because they think they know everything they need to know. While what you call "regressive" Christians know Christ and be saved, the application of that truth may be inconsistent with the Bible. This I know, the Bible has everything we need to bring folks to the Christ. Pray. Fellowship with God. Read your Bible. Study your Bible. Know your Bible. Understand your Bible. Make sure your beliefs are consistent with scripture and in context. God's Word is the final authority. Offer the truth in love. Jesus died for all sin. There is only one sin that His blood will not cover and that is rejection of the Gospel through unbelief - because salvation is by grace through faith. Ephesians 2:8,9. One cannot be good enough or perform well enough or do enough good to earn salvation. The things we do to "earn" salvation are trash, but the things we do because we are saved are treasure stored up in heaven. God be with you as you are with Him.

[@duncescotus2342]

@@jeffmuller1489 Thank you for your reply, brother. You made my day. The wisdom you speak fills me with joy and hope. The Bride shall be made ready. The Bible is sufficient. Grace is sufficient. The Gospel is sufficient. Personally, I reject the "solas," as that word goes to far, meaning "only" or "alone," and captures the wrong essence. "All things work together for good...." The Church now needs to rebuild bridges without compromising the truths of the Christian faith. Christ is not divided. It's up to us to figure out what this looks like. But what you said to me just yesterday, fills me with hope for tomorrow. And if I say anything inflammatory, it's because I want to kindle that flame. So thanks for responding to my "bait." We are after all, "fishers of men." I feel like I caught a really good one.

[@CB-cc1wo]

People assume that everyone can be "converted" to Christianity if (somehow) we can just use the right words or the make the right argument. Jesus gave us another option in dealing with people who are intractable... Mat 7:6 "Never give what is holy to dogs or throw your pearls before pigs. Otherwise, they will trample them with their feet and then turn around and attack you."

[@readthebible7429]

Great discussion. However, I would prefer that you try to verify that your beliefs are the original biblical Christianity, not what you call, "historical Christianity". In multiple instances they are not the same, as much of Christianity has been repackaged through Greek philosophical thought instead of the original Hebraic thought. No, I am not referring to the so-called "Hebraic Roots" movement, just plain old Hebrew thinking. This is Paul's hermeneutic. He writes, "What, then, is the advantage of being a Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God." Romans 3:1-2 This shows that Paul counts the Jewish understanding of Scripture as being the most reliable. Of course, even within the Judaism of Paul’s day there were differences, but somewhere within those differences was the correct understanding, in contrast to a non-Jewish, typically Greek philosophical or allegorical reading that rejected the Hebraic basis of the texts. This aberrant misunderstanding of the text is what has led to so much confusion within Christianity today.

[@Luke-db9fc]

I would not want to get into a "religious" argument with anyone. Whatever you believe, O.K. Whatever I believe, O.K. Let's not get into a shouting match over an "invisible" being or whatchamacallit. I won't try to convert you, and you won't try to convert me. That's it.

[@jeffmuller1489]

Yeah, unless the Bible happens to be true, in which case what you believe about God determines whether you spend eternity in Hell or Heaven.

[@christopher4688]

It's easy to discuss things when you have no representative of the opposing view.

[@christopher4688]

What people mean by intolerance and bigotry isn't about those Christians who disagree, but about those who wish to legislate their beliefs on everyone else. I don't care that you disagree, but you should have just as much respect for others as you wish them to have for yourself.

[@christopher4688]

People commit suicide often times because of how others treat them. If family disowned their own child because of a lifestyle choice, that can be devastating to the point of suicide. Your treatment of others has consequences.

[@marcusanthony488]

Evangelicals don't engage in dialogue. They come armed with presuppositions and their biblical talking points until u simply walk away exhausted.

[@nicholasprice6902]

Marcus Anthony is your point that only Christians have presuppositions and talking points?

[@marcusanthony488]

@@nicholasprice6902 I think my point is that I am have found it ifficult to have a thoughtful discussion. with a fundamentalist literalist Christian. The thinking is so narrowly shaped scripture. Bible verses are just tossed at you like so many ideological hand grenades. Perhaps not all are like that, and I certainly do have my own assumptions , no doubt.

[@nicholasprice6902]

@@marcusanthony488 what’s the setting for these discussions if you don’t mind my asking?

[@stretchiebutwhole1458]

I wonder if Greg Koukl actually believes the stuff he says. After all, he is just another career Christian. His income is dependent on him saying this stuff.

[@jeffmuller1489]

Good question, cuz only people who work for free can be trusted. LOL

[@stretchiebutwhole1458]

@@jeffmuller1489 If we worked a legitimate job, and then did this stuff as a hobby, I would be more inclined to believe that he actually believes what he is saying.

[@CB-fb5mi]

'Having sex outside of wedlock causes pregnancies and STD's'. So does sex in marriage. Yikes, that was cringe... They seem like nice people, but I dont appreciate these immature word games. Speaking of marriage, imagine if a couple communicated with these 'tactics', that would be quite the toxic manipulative marriage. "I am not feeling loved or respected right now'...'I don't know what you mean by love and respect, please define your beliefs'... Believe what you want, but pay attention to the context in which people are saying these things about conservative Christianity. This discussion is not happening in a historical-cultural vacuum. This affects the well being of real people, its not a playground word game. Why do so many think you are against the gay community? Could it be because of what they have seen with their own eyes and heard with their own ears for decades? Why do so many think Evangelicals are bullys? Could it be because 81% of them voted for one? I don't think that I have the written word of God himself at my disposal, do you? I don't want your marriage to be illegal, do you want my friends to be? I do not think you are going to Hell, do you think I am going there? We both have our beliefs, but don't pretend that mine are 'just as intolerant'.

[@kclark777v]

I don’t follow your complaint. Please explain why asking clarification questions is a word game? Do you think people who ask questions isn’t interested in what a person believes and understanding their viewpoint? Is that what you mean?

[@rampartranger7749]

Why do you think they are discussing “how to communicate in marriage,” or all communications generally? People make claims about truth, sometimes our beliefs are well thought out, and sometimes not. It’s true of me! I’ve been blessed with an awesome spouse, sweet, kind loyal giving. One of the things I especially appreciate is that she is “contentious.” She will contend with me if she thinks I’m making a significant error. Her ability to make me “explain myself to myself” is incredibly enriching. It’s not about acceptance of me or rejection of me. Though there is the temptation to become hyper-defensive, because I want what I want for irrational reasons (Which sometimes I do!).

[@CB-fb5mi]

@@kclark777v There are different ways to ask clarifying questions. The mature way that someone would use if they actually want a deeper understanding and conversation, would focus on peoples experiences. Say someone says 'I think the Church is intolerant'. A helpful clarifying question would then be 'help me understand where you are coming from on this?' or 'what experiences have you had that make you feel that way?'. Furthermore, most Christians know damn well what people are talking about when they say the Church is intolerant or anti gay etc, so even if you disagree with that, you could then say 'my guess is that you think that because of xyz experiences, is that true?' and then go on to say why in your experience you do not think it is true. That is the natural give and take of a person centered conversation. Contrast that with: 'So the church is not loving towards LGBT community and is intolerant toward other religions... how do you define love? 'How do you define intolerance? Is it making a judgement against someone? Are you judging me right now? So your intolerant of my beliefs? Seems like you are not being loving and tolerant towards me right now huh? That is a defensive, immature word game that belongs on the playground, not between two adults having a conversation about spirituality. At best it is using debaters tricks to avoid having a real human conversation, at worst it is mean spirited gaslighting. Every conversation happens in a cultural context, especially these kind of ones. Peoples problems with conservative Christianity come from their experiences with it. Don't try and bypass that by playing rhetorical games.

[@CB-fb5mi]

@rampart ranger I am glad that you have been able to make that communication style work in your relationship. It sounds like you have a lot of mutual trust to do that. The kind of 'tactical' conversations Greg is talking about would almost never have such mutual trust already established. I think communicating with maturity is something that carries over into almost every kind of conversation. A spiritual conversation in particular, if it is fruitful would be a vulnerable conversation, and not making someone defensive is paramount. I am aware of the irony, that I have made seemingly a lot of people defensive my with posts on this youtube channel. Communicating in a place like a youtube comment section is difficult, and I think I would be better at not making people defensive in person. I do not think the perspective of this podcast or its fans is stupid or mean spirited. I believed pretty much all the same things for most of my life, and I was not stupid or mean spirited while doing so. So I get that people are doing the best they can with the belief system that was given to them. Posting here is one of many choices that I have made, to try and be more vocal about why Progressive Christianity has been so lifegiving to me. Calling out the toxicity in conservative Christianity is part of doing that. I know that it will activate some peoples fear and anger, and I don't enjoy that at all, I am not a troll. However I think progressive Christians have for a long time done a really good job of being silent and invisible, and I want to be a (small) part of changing that.

[@kclark777v]

C B // Okay. How should someone ask you to clarify what you mean by “intolerant”? It’s hard to have a conversation if we are using our terms differently, don’t you agree?

[@T-41]

More homophobia. Oh well. Time to move on.

[@MarkDouglass-dt9ky]

Alisa looks beautiful