How We Burn Eproms - Troubleshooting An Exidy MOUSESTRAP Arcade PCB - Sound Is Stuck!

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[@joetripp123]

Hey Ron, I love that you've uploaded this even despite not quite taking it across the finish line. You're the only repair channel that can take us through 15 minutes of schematics and how your brain is logically working through it and still keep us entertained. Thanks man!

[@DemaGeek]

Sometimes it goes that way Ron, but you're reaching a lot of people here and the technique or answer may come to you from a viewer in time. If so, you learn something new that you get to keep and use from that point on. Great diagnostics and repair work guys, keep it up! You make me miss this work more and more with every video!

[@Golimorth]

Sometimes it doesn't work out in the end but its the journey that's important. Very nice to see these videos and see the troubleshooting process.

[@LyonsArcade]

Glad you enjoyed it! We learn as we go, i'm sure somebody will be along to tell us how to do it soon

[@naytch2003]

Spanky approves of that comment

[@86FxBdyCpe]

Hey Ron, bummer you weren't able to fix this one 100%, but another great series nonetheless. It takes a better person to admit defeat once in awhile (especially to the public), we all love what you do just the same. 👍

[@WreckDiver99]

Ron, you should 100% upload failed repairs. As you say, you can't learn without trying. There could be some items that pop that somebody has run into or may know how to fix, or maybe where to look. Yes, you'll need to filter all the "WHY DIDN'T YOU DO THIS YOU IDIOT" items, but honestly??? Yea...or you shadow ban the habitual offenders...LOL... Great work as usual!

[@LyonsArcade]

We try to respond to all the comments, but we get many a day telling us how stupid we are and how the other person could have fixed it, blah blah blah so youtube in general is a big P.I.T.A. because of it. We don't have many videos though of stuff we couldn't fix, in general we fix most of it. In general I don't like negativity so anything that attracts it makes me negative.

[@zyxxy]

@@LyonsArcade It's fine to fail once in a while. Especially when you are working on things that are over 40 years old or more. Sometimes fixing something is just impossible or not economically viable. Your videos are excellent win or lose (mainly win), and just think of all of the machines you have brought back to life that would have either just been parted out or ended up in landfill somewhere. Your videos are awesome to watch and your personality and knowledge shine through. 👍

[@WreckDiver99]

​@@LyonsArcade Ron, you can do everything PERFECTLY...and there is still going to be that group that just trolls. It's impossible to get away from. I watch a couple machinist channels, some of these guys have been doing this job for 50 years, and no matter what, a group trolls in with "dude, you don't know WTF you're doing, that's wrong"...no, it isn't, it's just DIFFERENT. People with 3+Mil subs, getting 5k+ comments...they actually stop reading them period. It just isn't worth it to them at that point. A) You can't, B) too many bloody trolls. In the end, comments feed the machine, good or bad.

[@MattJones-qe6ni]

Not an engineer? I don’t think so…….You sir are much more knowledgeable than a lot of engineers I work with.

[@wdavem]

I like the old eprom setup, and that you have several different ones. The ways the sound works in theses old games is very interesting. It's as though someone took one of those old 70's rom chip digital organs and replaced ALL the organ parts with a z80 particle board cabinet/CRT; and then there's the opposite where an endless loop tape from an old arcade game could be put into a melotron.

[@jussikuusela7345]

A likely reason why you might have a device occasionally reading the wrong "bank" of an oversized ROM is that the extra address line(s) of the bigger chip might not be accounted for in the board design, and are left floating. In that case the chip might not know for sure which bank is being requested. Instead of burning the same data in both banks you might just as well get lucky by tying the extra address lines high or low. Or you could burn different data in the banks and have chip select signals for the different ROMs to set the extra lines as needed, but it gets complicated. The same goes for using oversized RAMs. Unused address lines should be tied low or high to lock the operation in one bank. This said, double-burning a double size ROM might allow you to switch the banks by switching the extra line state if one bank was not properly burned. And the same goes for an oversized RAM, you could alter the extra line states if one bank is broken.

[@firehawk6188]

Kudos to you for uploading a repair that didn't get fixed. It happens to all of us but most don't show it!

[@AKATEATime]

Whewee, I haven't erased/programmed an EPROM since at least as far back as 1995. One machine we had ran CPM (think pre-DOS) and booted off of an 8" floppy, which was OLD even then. I didn't like using that machine too much because its full-blast fan sucked air in the top and it shot out in all directions between its probably 1" legs, but it didn't run hot enough to warm the air up, so I was always cold using it. lol

[@johnpawlowski8949]

Ron i have some Exidy machines in my game room. They are extremely high maintenance. But i do whatever is necessary to get them working. I enjoy the games that much. The first Exidy arcade i played was Crossbow back in the 1980s.

[@summerlaverdure]

even if you can't fix things 100%, i like seeing the videos from them! always upload your videos please :3

[@timhagemann6354]

Hey guys! Amazing video - not only this one, all the other ones too (I am working on a pinball - that's how I found your channel). Maybe I can shed some light on the sound board issue - all remote diagnosis, so don't blame me, if I am wrong. The MC3417 is a digital transmission chip for phone (audio) signals in 80ties style. So you needed two of them to create a bidirectional, digital transmission of an audio signal. In the MouseTrap, it seems to be used as a DA-converter, converting an audio signal coded bitstream (I guess inside the EPROMs) into a sound again. This is done by the Z80 CPU. It is feeding the 3417 by putting signals via its ZD0 data line in the E2 latch. It does this using the simple address decoder build around E3. The bit stream has to be synchronized with the 3417 clock, which the Z80 can read via ZD7. Since you changed E3, I assume the adress decoding thingy is working. And since the board is producing real sounds, the whole 3417 logic also seems to be working. What not works is that the main CPU can control the sound board. This is done via the rest of E4. By pulling Pin 1 of E4 low, the Z80 can read the /EAT, /PTER,... signals on its data lines. This is the case when ZA7 is low and /IOREQ is low (so using an IN or OUT command in the Z80 assembly language). Again a very simple address decoding. The Z80 can signal the main CPU that it has no time (or is playing a sound?) by the /BUSY line, which flows from the Z80 to the main CPU board. On the other side the main CPU (the 6502 / B4) is using a PIO 6532/B7 to talk to the Z80. What could be the cause: - If parts of the LS367 / E4 are broke, the signals would not come through. - The 6532 / B7 could be broken. It seems not to be used for something else - The address decoding for B7 could be broken. B6, C6, C5 and B2 are involved here. I have seen 74LS00 where one gate was fried, but the other ones worked well Cheers, T.

[@mfranzusan3014]

Smart. "It's illegal to download proprietary technology like game files... Hypothetically, if you need game files there's this website..." Genius. Lol

[@davidcountryman]

I love all of your videos. Thanks for doing what you do.

[@GenerationalGamers]

Come on, Ron, you know exactly what was wrong with the sound chip set. "It's Broke." Joe could have told you right at the beginning. 😉😁👍

[@pezjohnson]

Bummer that you didn't get it working. But I appreciate you uploading the video anyway. Someone will make good use of the video for sure. I hope you guys are doing well otherwise.

[@atmazee]

I figured out what was wrong with the sound board. It's broke.

[@jasonsteverson4609]

More arcade videos, please.

[@PlumGurly]

Yeah, I think they come "formatted" to all 1s and programming puts in the 0s. And there are options in case you can't get them, like use NVRAM and build a socket board to make the pinouts compatible. From what I hear, burners may think they are EEPROMs. So using them with a burner or in place of an EEROM should work. The '138 is a 3-to-8-line decoder. So it converts 3 binary lines with values 0-7 and converts that to 8 unary lines. That is mostly used when one uses memory chips with fewer lines than the address bus. So a 3-to-8 decoder would allow you to have 8 banks of the smaller chips. An inverting one would be used in that case so that all the lines are driven high except the /CS line on the bank you want. The decoder itself also has a /CS line. In that case, if it is high, all the lines would be high. That way, you can use decoders through decoders (or at least an inverter since they don't make a 1-to-2 decoder) if you must. The largest decoder is a 4-to-16, and if you need a 5-to-32, you'd need 2 decoders and an inverter chip. So in that weird configuration, you'd need to run 4 lines to both decoders (and the data and lowest address bits that will fit to all the memory). Then the highest address line would run directly to the low decoder's /CS (or /CE) line and through an inverter to that line of the high decoder. Then the encoder with /CS low and the bank of memory with its /CS low would be what is active at any given time. Now, a non-inverting decoder might be used in things such as a light display where the lights are mutually exclusive. So a 4-to-16 decoder could display 1 light out of 16 at a time. Speaking of 1 and 0, that reminds me of how vintage TVs worked. The weaker the signal, the brighter it is. So you see snow when the signal is weak, such as during bad weather. Personally, I like analog television better since you miss less of the show when the reception gets spotty. The digital stuff is all or nothing. To make it worse, it is compressed. So if a small amount of the packet is corrupt, you may lose the entire packet. Plus, it works incrementally. That is why a person's mouth may appear messed up, but not the rest of them. So only the parts that change within a given timespan will get updated to the TV,. So if someone is speaking, their mouth is moving, and if some of those packets get messed up, that will be what part of the picture where you see corruption.

[@markjackson1444]

A first for me …. the first time I’ve watched a video where you couldn’t sort it out. …. This should make a lot of us feel not so dumb now. If Ronnie has trouble, we’ll then we’re allowed to have trouble too, right? …. It was actually a shock to watch you surrender on this. I’ve read the calls for more arcade games …. my call is for more great em pinball machines. …Just can’t get enough of them. Is that Mayfair getting closer to the top of the queue?

[@sguttag]

At some point, you might want to get an inductive pickup as used in signal tracers. That is like having a microphone where you can trace back an audio signal to see where it may be stopping or combining with other things.

[@LyonsArcade]

I might get one of those for my radio repairs, I don't know how I could use it to fix this though, I don't completely understand the circuit unfortunately

[@dashcamandy2242]

@@LyonsArcade Check out Mr. Carlson's Lab here on YT. He occasionally uses a homemade tube-based signal tracer while restoring tube-based AM radios, if you see him use that tool in a repair, I think you'll understand... The probe is super-sensitive and can pick up RF and audio signals simply by being somewhat near the source. You could pick up signals anywhere on the board and follow the traces with the probe to locate where the signal ends. I didn't even think of using a device like that in this application, but having read the suggestion above, it does make sense.

[@WonkoTSane]

I use a GQ-4x4 and with an external power supply it has no issues with the 27xx and 25xx chips. What it won't do are GAL and PAL chips.

[@SiaVids]

I use a 2816 or a 2832 EEprom in my modern USB programmer and then put that as the master ROM in my old 1980's Eprom programmer to program the Eproms. a bit of a roundabout route of doing it but it works very successfully. 😀

[@tectalabyss]

Thank you for the video. I remember Mame back in the day. I had fun getting it to work. I am sure you will get the sound card fixed. I have faith in you. Love all your videos. Has always I liked and shared. I am looking forward to your next video. All my best.

[@Ren_G.]

Good try bro! Great lesson in arcade repair regardless! 👏👏👏

[@goddessesstartrekonlinefle3061]

Feels like you where nearly there with this. So close! Thanks for sharing this, I know it must have been a hard choice to go against your long held policy of only uploading the ones you fix (though I guess you mostly fixed it by getting the main game running without sounds). Anyway, thanks again :).

[@danijelcar5184]

Nice EPROM burn machine😎👍

[@NivagSwerdna]

@28:35 I suspect you were on to something here... 74LS367 is active low enable (despite that not being marked on the schematic)... would have been tempted to replace E3 and/or E4.

[@-IFFTI-]

17:00 > This is epic loudspeaker word fun! 😁

[@NotsureOk]

very interesting video. looks like its a lot harder to fix an arcade game than a pinball machine cuz that looked like one complex 10000 piece jigsaw with 1 piece missing or 1 piece that looks fine but isn't fine while trying to diffuse a bomb or maybe whatever is causing it is not on the boards Are you sure its not George in the machine as the ghost who wont stop barking n meowing 👻

[@pajamamar2011]

Hopefully you will have a Targ, Space Fury, Space Invaders pinball or even a Omega Race to repair..

[@pauz2175]

Loved the vid anyway. And I'm not even an arcade guy. Good vid.

[@spiders-tours]

pter is probably pointer, what to I'm not sure. Maybe, which sound to select, as having both at the same time wouldn't work. Agree with others, failure vids are equally important as success ones. Here most of the box was saved as well.

[@AlexFalkenberg]

Yeah, feel free to upload the fails as well. Learning is learning. :)

[@TheRealScooterGuy]

Quick Google search during the video: MC3417 chip is listed as a 16-pin Delta Modulation System Cont Var Slope (whatever the heck that means). Anyway, those first two words: Delta Modulation, or DM, might explain the "DM" on the schematics.

[@ovalteen4404]

Well, I can't just say what's wrong with it, but I'd love a shot at trying to fix it. Edit: The Z80 seems to be the source of the digital sounds. It has 4 ROM chips and no RAM. It polls the 4 inputs, EAT, PTER, 0LINE, and K9. K9 almost has to be the dog bark sound. A 74LS367 is used to gate those signals in when it does an IO read. What the chip's program might be doing, is that it loops through memory, checking if the next sound effect is supposed to play or not by reading IO. If so, it begins playing that sound effect. If not, it jumps past to the next sound effect polling point. Hard to know for sure though since these seem to the ROMs that the ROM sets don't have... or if they do, they're labeled differently. It might be A1-A4 since A5, A6, and A7 seem to be the only ones needed for operation of the 6502. Edit 2: Looks like A2 has the Z80 code. The routine is pretty simple: Set BUSY inactive. Poll the 4 sound inputs as a number. They are active low, so it inverts the result and then treats it like a sfx number. If the number is 0 (all high), it keeps sending alternating 1's and 0's to the demodulator while it waits for a nonzero amount. Otherwise it looks up the sample size and start in ROM from a table using the sample number, sets BUSY active, and shifts the sample data out 1 bit at a time. When the sample is done, BUSY goes inactive again.

[@davewilks847]

could it have been a jumper/wire setting on the board? to accept 4k or 2k roms?

[@AvengerII]

Is that Windows XP loaded on that old laptop, Ron? I shouldn't make fun of you because I ALSO still run XP-era programs in Windows 10! LOL I prefer the term "miserly" to "cheap"! Seriously, though, couldn't The Fonz have done something with those EPROMs with a simple tap? The Fonz may not be the most computer-literate guy out there but even he knows you don't burn EPROMs with a welding torch OR toss them in a firepit to load programs into the ROM! For people who aren't bright enough to look up how to do proper EPROM burning or get someone more knowledgeable to do this for them all I can say is "Shazbot!"

[@jasonsteverson4609]

Hey Ron!!

[@ribbit876]

Bad trace maybe. I thought for sure you had it when you found the missing enabled signal.

[@kingdbag]

My logic is STRONG people!!!

[@jeromewink557]

I bet you could fix it now that there is a good board to compare to. Is it worth the video income to offer to fix the bad board for free? Such that you get a final part to this series and he gets a spare working board?

[@LyonsArcade]

I don't think I could repair it, we have a lot of boards we're unable to get going (I'm messing with a Donkey Kong Jr. right now)

[@ginkumpow3726]

Surprised you didn't swap out the 6532, they're one of those flaky chips.

[@DrMurdercock]

0:19 The guitar controller. EVERY game shop in the world has about 10000000 of these. One of the most popular games of all time, even getting non gamers to buy the stuff to play, then it all just vanished. Anyone know why the Rockband/Guitar Hero stuff went under when it was so wildly populart?

[@LyonsArcade]

Unfortunately the bigger the attachment is the quicker it gets thrown away by mom :)

[@DrMurdercock]

@@LyonsArcade haha never thought of it that way, how many do you have? About 100?

[@seancurry2863]

I think that the zero with a line through it is the Greek letter Phi, pronounced “fee”, so that line is likely “feline”.

[@theTemplar08]

What is strange game. I never played it more than once as a kid just didn’t see it. But most machines have the joystick on your left hand. Well, this one has all of its control buttons on the left side be fine for me as I am ambidextrous. But just as a general game player, I’m used to having my control buttons on my right side

[@LyonsArcade]

This game was so early they hadn't figured that out yet. Centipede was backwards too.... basically their thinking was you didn't have to be dexterious on the buttons so they just put the controls on the right.....

[@NivagSwerdna]

@27:30 I predict a RIOT; PIA with knobs on.

[@DjResR]

It is possible that when you loaded the file to buffer it is already corrupted so it compares corrupted to corrupted and still gets a match. It's better to have a software from some other resource and compare that to what is on these eproms._

[@sixtoes2313]

👍 💯%

[@lileveretteyoakumiii]

Yodelayheehoo

[@KabukeeJo]

A game you could not fix??? Impossiburrrr!!

[@1000davetron]

Did you try jiggling the audio cable? You got to jiggle it, people.... Come on, people!!!

[@jeffo881]

"It's "about" to drive me crazy". ummmmmm I don't know how to tell you this but.....

[@johnmeoff]

sum is a result i could be wrrong

[@CorbinDallas_Doc]

1st

[@LyonsArcade]

Thank you for watching louisv8817!

[@Pitbull0669]

OMG I LOVE MOUSE TRAP