How You Misunderstood Sonic Level Design (+ Shadow Generations Impressions)

[@bubbletea_]

every game got people like "is sonic gonna be good again?????"

[@spritvio639]

Can't really blame them with Sonic's track record. We went from Generations one year to Sonic 4 Episode 2 the next.

[@amari648]

@@spritvio639then we went from Generations, one of the best Sonic games to Lost World, a ok game to Mania, another great Sonic game and then FORCES💀💀

[@fireshade3778]

Didn't expect to see my Persona guy in the my Sonic guy's comments

[@why-ub9mt]

They've been good again since Frontiers

[@amari648]

@@why-ub9mt Frontiers was a good game but the main comment basically said that because of how inconsistent Sonic Team/Sega is with Sonic Games. They can go from Heroes to shadow and 06. Then they give us three good games back to back which are Unleashed, Colors and Generations and then back to mediocrity with Lost world(underrated game) BOOM and Forces.

[@Wbubbles3998]

Great video mate, I always hated the “linear=bad” mindset, it’s not that the levels were linear that made the Forces stages bad, it’s that they didn’t require much from the player

[@lks19]

Linear is bad when the level feels empty and doesn't offer obstacles while you progress through the stage.

[@PayForViewsJST]

Open can be equally as boring and Uninspired. @@lks19

[@leonardowynnwidodo9704]

I just figured that the pathways in Forces and Frontiers are too “linear”, as in there are no windy roads which may decrease Sonic’s momentum while running.

[@Samazuwhite]

I've said this one and many times and I'll say it again, Sonic Forces is the equivalent of PTSD for the Sonic fanbase. The very moment we see a linear path or little automation we start loosing our mind, both of them can work when having constant interactions with the level heck even Adventure two has some bits of automation and linear levels but people don't have a problem with those, and that's because of how the game made you interact with the level, you are constantly on your toes trying to go for the high score or cool trick. Could that been madr better with diferent path ways and expanding the level on the Adventure 1 philosophy? Yes probably. But then again we are now on a new age for the Sonic games, and we'll see how this serie can reach his full potential again.

[@lpfan4491]

Nobody? People make whole essays on gamedesign theory because they now believe that Sonic gamedesign has stagnated and never evolved or devolved and simply stayed the same(Which...lol.)

[@Samazuwhite]

@@lpfan4491 Sonic stayed the same???? who says that lmao, that could be a miracle if the franchise stayed with one gameplay style

[@yourself1210]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/f5nLqqKQZrSlasUsi=oP8--ByxcXo74ly1

[@TheScarletWing2490]

It's amazing how Forces scarred the Sonic fanbases worse than 06 did in some areas. Tho I guess P-06 giving us a "What if 06 was polished and had no bugs" scenario perhaps helped people appreciate 06's gameplay and level design for what it could have / SHOULD have been, while Forces is just.... Forces.....

[@funfactmaker4924]

⁠@@TheScarletWing2490You can somewhat justify a bit of 06 with like low development time or being too ambitious,it’s less bland than forces since you gotta interact with the shit controls Forces was just kinda stupid,why did 2 of the 4 years of development go to making the story,the game is stable,but so boring that it can’t be fixed to become any better than the disaster it is You can fix 06 to be way better at the very least just like P-06,but you can’t fix forces,even if you do it’s not gonna be forces anymore

[@Sneeakie]

Everyone bringing up Cyber Space seem to forget or ignore the Final Horizon levels, which are not only the best Cyber Space stages but include some of my favorite stages in Sonic. Shadow Generations takes more cues from them, mixing them together with Generations' style of level design to great effect.

[@spritvio639]

Even if the cyberspace levels in the final horizon are all peak Sonic gameplay, they are still the small minority of Sonic Frontiers' cyberspace.

[@irohnic473]

Horizon stages are good, but they are a small part of the Cyberspace stages. Most Cyberspaces suffer from both sheer linearity alongside the horrid handling

[@dreamcastdazia4753]

Also the world 4 levels

[@lambousginiguccigod2007]

I know everyone isn’t exactly the biggest fans of cyber space. Do keep in mind that Cyberspace allows you to do pretty insane jumps and leaps with proper homing boost cancels. This gets even better after the spin dash update. Cyberspace isn’t as linear as some make it out to be. It definitely requires focus. I only wish that the ranking system was more vigorous. 1-2 was the best cyberspace stage for exactly that. The neat tricks and hard S rank is EXACTLY what I want from similar special stages in the future. The stage may have instances of linearity but finding out how to shortcut everything to S Rank is fun.

[@MechaKnuckles]

@@lambousginiguccigod2007Also, these levels are extremely fun to speedrun because of how short they are.

[@kingbash6466]

Forces really is the Sonic 06 to fans too young to remember the effect that game had on the franchise. Fans have gotten so scared of linearity thanks to that game, that just seeing it in any capacity will trigger a PTSD war flashback.

[@thelightningangel4959]

The main problem with forces is the total lack of engagement for the player, like some stages can be beaten by holding forward or holding boost, cyberspace is somewhat better in this type of mindset cuz it wants you to do shit...but then it gets held back by its drawbacks: slower speed, vulnerable boosting, eyc

[@RaiginAnimator]

I actually disagree with a lot of your points on cyberspace. While yes the control issues you brought up are valid from a time attack perspective The overwhelming lack of automation compared to forces and the context of these being bite sized special stages Makes them actually fun to me Using stomp bounces to skip past or jump over sections is quite engaging to me the biggest issue with cyberspace is controls really

[@sopapopp]

yeah cyberspace was very fun for me even tho i agree sonic controls weirdly. also i consider cyberspace levels more like bonus stages to get the emeralds, they're not the main attraction of the game

[@sopapopp]

yeah cyberspace was very fun for me even tho i agree sonic controls weirdly. also i consider cyberspace levels more like bonus stages to get the emeralds, they're not the main attraction of the game

[@leonardowynnwidodo9704]

Fully disagree about the stomp bounce. It doesn't make sense that you simply stomp and then bounce back; Sonic's not a spring. As for the time-based performance, Generations also follow a similar system; notice how the only hud in Generations are the ring count and the time. The results are mostly based on how fast he reached the goal, with rings for a small contribution

[@windy3935]

@@leonardowynnwidodo9704 Your argument on the bounce is invalid, because it's an indepth mechanic exclusive to being held down. Sonic doesn't bounce up with a standard stomp.

[@leonardowynnwidodo9704]

@@windy3935 elaborate for me, cause your explanation is no different to my comment. Besides, if you hold the stomp button, haven't you noticed that he jump back up higher? This is what I'm referring to

[@heehomgee4671]

I'm a massive nerd and I've been playing these games real recently so I wanted to share some of my thoughts: - In defence of Forces, the game doesn't just end at the Red Rings but the two other sets of rings: Number and Silver Moon Rings. These really push you to figure out a lot of the game's little quirks, especially in Network Terminal with many branching paths via sliding in the factory segment. 100%ing the game actually made the experience a bit better and it plays pretty well enough so I don't really mind as much as others (But I totally get the major complaints). - Heroes' level design is also very repetitive and the "Combat" the game provides is barebones at best and the nuance is derived from upgrading your team as fast as possible so you don't have to put up with the awful enemy encounters. - Also Generations' ranking system is WAAAAAY easier than Forces, even if you die it's almost always an instant A-Rank, but the game is still one of the best games in the series so it's fun without it. - Frontiers' gameplay feels awful but I feel that not mentioning Final Horizon was a bit disappointing, while Base Cyberspace was some of the most boring stuff in the series, the new levels added in the DLC actually really impressed me and feel like a basis for Shadow's Campaign.

[@betlergaen5757]

The thing in cyberspace too is that there's some examples of the levels having some engagement or encoraging the player to engage with it. Everyone brings 1-2 as the more fun level not because its amazing, but because of the time being harder to achieve, it makes the player play better to reach it, which is something thats not present on the other levels unfortunately

[@kaobunn]

there's also the levels with the original level design as well

[@Neoniq41]

That still doesn't change the fact that cyberspace is poorly designed.

[@MysticClaws100]

The only 3D Sonic game that regularly has open levels is Sonic Adventure which has a lot of stages (or stage acts) that wrap around each other or has a lot of alternate pathways). Every other one is mostly linear with upper/lower paths or the occasional alternate route

[@Soldat4w]

That’s why it’s the best 3D Sonic. Levels felt like worlds instead of tracks.

[@MysticClaws100]

@@Soldat4w I don’t disagree with you but I don’t think linearity is necessary a bad thing either. Even SA1 has its linear sections that are still iconic. SA2 is mostly linear but it’s those linear stages like City Escape, Metal Harbour and Green Forest which are most loved in that game. But SA2 still has it’s more open sections like the bridge in Radical Highway, Crazy Gadget (which using the gravity gives you a lot of opportunity for shortcuts/alternate routes), Final Rush After SA1, I’d say 06 probably has the most open areas in its levels but I wouldn’t call that the best game

[@Soldat4w]

⁠@@MysticClaws100It’s not the linearity, more so the immersion of the stages. E.g Red mountain has you scale up and on the side of the volcano with “act 2” being inside the volcano. Each stage told a story and played differently. With a few exceptions, SA2 felt boxed in and generic in exchange for score attack. Boost gameplay is a way more efficient version of what SA2 tried to do.

[@MysticClaws100]

@@Soldat4w Idk I feel like SA2 offers a ton of freedom for how you want to go about playing the stages compared to the boost games. For boost games, there’s mostly only one way to play through the levels. Which is boost / avoid enemies and obstacles to get to the end as fast as you can. Of course each playthrough of the level is going to be different for everyone but generally that’s how it will go. Boost and avoid obstacles For SA2, there are so many different ways of playing the same stage. Do you want to just get to the end, then you can. Do you want to speed run the stage, sure. Do you want to try to get an A rank? Do you want to try to go beyond just an A rank and try to get the highest score you can? Do you want to try to collect as many rings as you can in the stage? SA2’s stages are designed so that you can play them in any of these ways. All of these different ways of playing offers very different experiences of playing through the same level. With boost games, you’re encouraged to just get to the end as fast as possible. If you want to try to go for high scores or high ring counts, it’s the same experience since killing enemies and collecting rings just contributes to your boost. So you’re going to go for as many rings/enemies as you can while boosting. Not to mention the S rank is pathetically easy in most boost games and you’re rewarded for time more than anything else That’s not even to mention the extra missions all stages have in SA2. Collect 100 rings, find the Lost Chao, play with time limit/no checkpoint and hard mode. These missions add far more ways of playing through the stages too whereas the extra content in boost games tends to lack this depth imo and just have you play a small section of the stage again or have you play some random 2D platforming level with the same assets of a stage you’ve already played through.

[@Soldat4w]

@@MysticClaws100 i can see where you’re coming from. the control restrictions of the boost gameplay compared to Adventure gives you more ways to play. I just think as a whole, boost leans into the score attack style and streamlined the actions in less clunky way than SA2. The mechanics just flow better, and the stages progressively got more diverse level designs like Modern Seaside Hill and Speed Highway. Agree to disagree 🤝

[@Brandt2698]

Great video man. I agree with the points about linearity being good sometimes. I honestly believe games like forces have made people way too nervous and over analytical of the level design. We just have to see when it releases, if it’s fun it’s fun

[@BBWahoo]

I just want the "Lost World" tweaks to be removed, like the camera flick. People moan about forces but LW was ground zero.

[@amari648]

All facts. Forces has traumatized Sonic fans and every time they see a good amount of linearity in a Sonic Game, it’s classified as being like Forces immediately which is annoying. The Shadow gameplay so far has levels that are going to be longer than a minute, different pathways and good boss battles.

[@spritvio639]

​@@BBWahooWell, Lost World is 10 years old. We gotta start praising it as an underrated masterpiece because it TRIED to be different.

[@BlurBlizzard]

Over analytical? I don't think we're at that point where we don't need to do so anymore. Considering Sega 's track record. I will give them the benefit of the doubt, because they got the original director and not kishimoto

[@RefluxCitadelRevelations]

I agree with the points made, and I too am excited for Shadow's campaign, but I'd argue Frontiers' Cyberspace levels are plenty of interactable. Of course, this requires knowing the homing dash, but after it became as popular as it did, Sonic Team even taught us how to do it. Not that every player will see that content, but it's cool that it's there at all. In any case, look at the speedruns for Sonic Unleashed, most of the top level runners aren't even interacting with the the level design, they're just exploiting the mechanics to skip over almost the entirety of of the level. It'd be easy to think that Frontiers is the same, but with Frontiers, the homing dash and the spindash require you to interact with the bits of incline and enemy placement. The top level runs use the albeit unintentional enemy/spring placement to go through these levels while still running or grinding on the level (except for 1-7). Of course, this is due to the myriad of invisible walls everywhere. And yes, i agree that the lack of speed is abhorrent, they even had to update the game so that he was faster in Update 1 and that was only after beating the Cyberspace challenge. However, the lack of the speed is what makes exploiting the homing dash and spindash so fun, theyre way way faster than the normal boost and are based on the level design itself. 3-4 (i think thats the one with just the rails) is the worst cyberspace level by far because there's no ramps or enemies to use as a way to get your speed up. In any case, this was a great video, man, keep it up.

[@robertoneill589]

holy shit, i never thought anyone would say it

[@Gnidel]

I believe that non-linearity is a difficulty balancing mechanism. If player gets to slower path instead of dying, then top paths can be harder and would require better inputs, while lower path can be easier. Otherwise the level design will cater to good players and he frustrating or will cater to casuals which can result in being too easy and boring.

[@miadatenshi9903]

I'd have to disagree with the cyberspace part. The motivation here is to speedrun the stage with spindash, homing dash, boost jumps and such

[@miadatenshi9903]

On another note, some of the stages in Frontiers are absolutely more fun to play than in their reference games. I'd say the SA2 ones, you can do a lot of stuff you just couldn't in that game, I get where your coming from, but SA2 does not allow you to experiment, just do whatever the game tells you to do.

[@heehomgee4671]

@@miadatenshi9903 I respectfully have to completely disagree. Generations and Unleashed have movement that flows far nicer and actually includes many more nuanced mechanics completely lost in Frontiers that make it really boring in comparison. Plus SA2??? Just because you never experimented with the game doesn't mean it doesn't allow you to.

[@BranFlaixx]

IMMEDIATELY subscribed, dude. This is one of the best analyses of 3D Sonic's appeal that I've ever seen. Far too often, I'll hear the mindset of "if it's not momentum-driven with pinball physics like the first few 2D games, it's bad by default," but I too believe the best 3D Sonic's do something completely different, but equally valid. They remind me of action games, in that they require quick reflexes, and demand the player to fully interact with their design. Major props as well for outlining why other boost-centric games work, while Forces and Cyberspace don't. I'm hoping for the best from Shadow Generations. There are some high expectations for it, simply because it exists in the same room as Sonic Generations, one of the series' best, in 3D.

[@JaredThe]

NGL, wasn't expecting this video to be primarily focused on the 3D games, specifically just SA2 onwards, given I've been thinking a lot lately about how folks seem to misunderstand the level design of games dating as far back as Sonic 1. Great video in terms of those games though, and I honestly believe the same sentiment applies to the levels from Classic Sonic as well. Although some of the more linear levels in harder games like Sonic 1 and Sonic & Knuckles can get pretty divisive and don't mesh with everyone, most of those linear levels manage to be very engaging to play through, especially when going for extra goals in them like faster times and getting Chaos Emeralds. most of Marble Zone and Flying Battery Zone consist of longer linear sections that test the player's speed with platforming and knowledge of the environment and its traps, and feel built around being able to be played through better and faster on repeat play throughs. Those are levels that on a first play through don't usually mesh with players, but with mastery of those levels they can be really fun. In a lot of ways they are the games that built the foundation of the Adventure games' key level design philosophy. Of course we don't really get as much spectacle in Sonic 1 compared to games like Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 & Knuckles, but that is something the series definitely built towards as the games went on.

[@JP2427]

Yeah, I mostly wanted to keep it focused on 3d games since Shadow Generations was what got me thinking about this lol, but I agree the series has been linear for a long while

[@Sonicfalcon16]

I will say the 06 levels are a nice compromise. Where some are liniar but other are open sections. Modding them into other games with better control feels really fun to play

[@TylerBR97]

I really hope Shadow Generations has at least an option for harder rankings

[@dave9515]

This isn't even the largest problem with 3d sonic games. Mechanics being removed and stages being simplified over time is. You could have great level design but if all you do is boost and jump its not that engaging now is it. SA2 level design would shine if it had mechanics unleashed had. Imagine QTE pads, not having to slow down to kill enemies and having a more responsive and reliable homing attack albeit when it comes to controls not being put on the best button since boost is the homing attack button. Imagine a time based rank system with levels that expand sa1 design philosophy. Imagine if we had stomp instead of the worse bounce and a double jump for better vertical platforming. That would be wonderful. Imagine if you were forced to balance on rails and could trick on them and messing up one sharp turn balance led to death. There is so much mechanical deph thats been lacking since unleashed at this point and games before unleashed also lacked the amount unleashed has. Unleashed is hands down the deepest sonic game and the level mechanics make the linear design rewarding like if you do a QTE in even the tutorial stage you can skip running around that one building finishing it faster but if you mess up and aren't fast on reacting lower path and run around the building. Drifting in unleashed once mastered is the most satisfying drift out of all the boost games, QSS while a glitch made quickstep wildly fun. Mastering a stage and getting an S rank in unleashed is like doing a perfect level run in Megaman Zero 3 where you never miss a single shot with your z buster while effortlessly slashing through enemies whilst maintaining momentum and the recoil rod adds even more crazy options and cool skips you can pull off like using an enemy to pogo off of to get certain rewards like a new heart tank or cyber elf that is usually only obtainable with a double jump mod from later in the game but you got it with recoil boosting. Sonic could benefit rewarding stage mastery with better flow and the issue with SA2's ranking system is the toolkits of speed and mech stages not being designed with the system in mind. You shouldn't need to slow down to homing attack some enemies instead there should be a way to zip through enemies and kill them on the fly without killing momentum and flow instead and the shooting stages are so basic that the shooting is more boring than SA1's version despite having more options just cause SA1 at least had gamma with a timer mechanic and chains giving more time back to finish a stage. Treasure hunting stages should have had an adaptable radar like SA1 radar for massive stages like death chamber, egg quarters, mad space and meteor herd.

[@Terminal_Apotos]

SA2 Level design shines as is because it was made with those mechanics in mind. Importing Unleashed Sonic into SA2 would be freakin terrible.

[@adedakevwe1957]

Imagine drifting in sonic adventure 2 😂​@@Terminal_Apotos

[@dave9515]

@@Terminal_Apotos It wasn't and you are lying to claim that. The ranking system goes against the boring and basic forces esq level design and drags out more stage time. Sonic and shadow move so slow and have no tools to easily shred through enemies, a lot of SA2 speed stages would work with unleashed sonic as there are hardly any moments of turning. Sliding would be better than charging a spindash or rolling under those moving objects and those tiny wall gaps. SA2 is the worst sonic game for ruining stage design and not building upon what sonic adventure started.

[@lpfan4491]

SA1 is genuinely not much more open than SA2. Most of the "open design" is for optional capsules that encourage you to either ignore them or go slow for no tangible reward.

[@stanzacosmi]

one thing: you do have a stomp, just tap the button instead of holding it but otherwise from what I could gather i agree

[@MAN-MILK]

If it weren't for the art design and direction, we'd see Sonic Colors like Sonic Forces

[@featherguardian6023]

While I agree with your Opinions, the One Thing I don’t is Cyberspace, I get it they’re Short and takes the Nostalgia Factor however they are Challenging and Fun and when you look deeper into it there’s both Momentum in the Gameplay and Extra Pass Ways and Shortcuts, it’s not like Forces that it feels too Easy, there’s more Layers to Cyberspace that you might think.

[@Crystal-pro-2024]

i think it's fair to remember that cyberspace is basically optional outside of 1-1 and 1-2, and that of an average playthrough, it takes like an hour of the 13 or so frontires takes to compleate

[@kaobunn]

great video! i really agree, though as someone who's mastered cyberspace and has a softspot for them, i see what you mean personally i think the final horizon stages are something you should've touched on in comparison, as those levels are more engaging and encourages the player to think outside the box sometimes, the original level design in the base cyberspace levels are also pretty solid as well, such as 4-2, 4-4, and 4-7 which im surprised were lumped in with the game as a whole as for the extremely lenient S rank times for cyberspace, id recommend extreme difficulty, the S rank times are completely fixed there

[@Terminal_Apotos]

Being Linear isn’t the issue, it’s being Linear and Basic. Space Colony Ark Act 1 has Basic Level Design that Heavily relies on Shallow Mechanics like the Homing Attack and Rail Grinding. Even when it does take Advantage of Good Mechanics like Chaos Control, it’s for Basic Stuff like making an Easy Timing to Create a Straight line for you to run through. Overall It’s not Terrible but it’s not raising the Standard, thats acceptable considering it’s the First Stage but Later Levels need to drastically raise the Complexity in order to get any High Praise from me.

[@amari648]

True but it also has multiple pathways and it reminds of Final Chase from SA2. Also, I see you a lot on Premy’s channel and whenever I comment on his channel, no one’s ever able to see my comment for some reason on his Channel specifically.

[@Terminal_Apotos]

@@amari648 What we’ve seen are mostly small deviations, they reconnect to the main Path in less than 10 seconds and are rarely designed any differently. For example the Hallway with the Ramps, stay on the Lower Path and you Homing Attack some GUN Beetles or Launch yourself off the Ramp to take the upper Path just to Homing Attack some Springs. The only Meaningful Alternate Path was the one that takes you to the Right Side of the Open Room but even that is practically the same as all you do in another set of Homing Attacks. Most likely KZbin Blocking you, it’s censorship system is all messed up.

[@amari648]

@@Terminal_Apotos I agree also thanks for the heads up🙏

[@legoboy7107]

Hi again.

[@Terminal_Apotos]

@@legoboy7107 Again?

[@Karianysu]

Idk you really discredit Cyberspace. It's a LOT of fun to speedrun, some stages are even better than their original counterparts, such as 3-6

[@JP2427]

It has its charms, but idk I don't find them as repayable as other games in the series. Maybe its something to do with the control but I find just speedrunning the stages isn't as fulfilling as going for high scores in past games

[@chair_dib]

I would like a sonic game where you have to get an s rank on every level in order to get the best ending

[@danielgertler5976]

The rush style gameplay isn't about branching pathways, thats for classic sonic stages/games. Rush/adventure style is about doing the perfect button input at exactly the right times and getting those small shortcuts to shave seconds off your score.

[@jackhumphries1087]

I think the problem (or at least part of it) is not the levels themselves, but rather how sonic controls, in earlier boost games more linear levels were fine because sonic movement was amazing and allowed you to do some crazy stuff, but with forces and to a lesser extent cyberspace, sonic controls like ass, with a stripped back moveset and incredibly stiff turning he turn the levels that might have been salvageable into slogs. Even otherwise bad levels can still be salvaged by a character that controls well, and that goes for all games.

[@jeromemccalla9520]

I feel that the boost levels post generations felt more like corridors with drag and drop box platform level design, unleashed and gens, levels felt organic and more like fun Mario kart courses.

[@Eichro]

I believe you're skipping a big factor: controls. In Adventure, characters are very expressive to control. In Heroes, they aren't that expressive (still more than the boosties) but the movesets are greatly expanded due to having three characters all with unique moves (compared to each other, that is). Boost games don't have that luxury, that's why Cyberspace levels can't get away with reusing SA2 level designs.

[@heehomgee4671]

Quickstepping and Drifting, using Jump to bounce off enemies instead of Homing Attacking them... A lot of the "Expression" in Boost games was either dumbed down or outright removed in Forces and Frontiers, you really need to consider Unleashed/Generations and Forces/Frontiers seperately.

[@SendoDX]

I agree with most of your cyberspace analysis but I feel like leaving out the 4 challenges that net you in game goodies is doing a disservice to your point. The game IS giving you incentive to mess around with the stages more than once in some cases, because those incentives are there and honestly more tangible and valuable than any of the returns you get from red rings in Gens. Also, I don’t think spectacle really... does the heavy lifting you think it does. I just think there’s more to it than that.

[@JP2427]

I talked about this more in my dedicated Frontiers video, but those challenges don't really do a lot for me because I found I would do most of them on my first try by accident. So that on top of how easy it is to find keys in the open world kinda diminishes the reward for me imo

[@baggelissonic]

Which is exactly why I find Sonic Forces Speedrunning so engaging. Most stages have ways to skip the automation thaat require more player input as well as a ton of tiny optimizations. I suggest you look up luminous forest speedrun world record. Even the long hallway at the start of the stage has some really tiny optimizations.

[@vitexus6907]

i really enjoyed this video, finally someone understand sonic levels, i would like to defend cyberspace a bit, cause in my opinion has some stuff unique that the other levels dont, (basically the freedom to traverse the stage and skip lot of sections, thanks to spindash, wich yeah, wasnt intended at first, but definitly give those levels some unique thing that i cant find in other sonic games, and thats one of my reason i enjoyed so much playing cyberspace) i get your point, but cyberspace for me is not that bad example of bad levels or gampelay, but definitly can improve and yeah, for me shadow generations does looks for nothing like these games before, definitly i see there an improvement, and i think it has the potential to be one of the best stages on all the franchise or at least for the boost formula, still we just have to wait, but defnitly im gonna look at it in october

[@rachel0777]

I'm glad you mentioned the short level length. I didn't purchase Sonic Forces because of it actually.

[@dundde3982]

Gonna be honest I agree with the idea that linear is not bad, but I will say that forces was much worse about the stage design and much more. This is not to put more hate than there already is for the game, (even if it does seem like it) but I’ll just put it like this. How do you make the easy mode harder than a difficulty that is meant to be more difficult? Why do you make the game slower on the hard mode when going faster makes the game harder due to the tight turns and quick decisions you have to make? Especially considering your controls and movements were sometimes on ice or nearly abysmal. The saving grace of frontiers in my opinion is the amazing QOL settings that can make the game feel better according to whatever experience you’d want it to be by increasing your speed, fixing the delay on homing attack, sensitivity- just settings that help you fix the overall gameplay to how you want it to be. Sure while cyberspace may still be very linear and boring, at the very least you had options to make it feel slightly better. Plus, unlike forces it has more than just linear stages to cover for its shortcomings. Sonic forces never gave that option however, so you were stuck with the same settings throughout the game, where you struggle to turn, struggle to simply slow down without stopping. gain speed again after you pull a full emergency break stop by just letting go of the stick for one second, there is so much more that just gets in the way from the running to the floaty jumps that make no sense all the way to the music when it suddenly cuts to **BA DU, BA DA, BA DU, DU DA, BA DA DA…ToGEthER-** fistbump. I bet everyone really missed out on arsenal pyramid because of it. Along with null space..with so many nice designs in the game, they skip so much by rushing it with just a simple set of one liners and an over saturated boost mechanic used once in a blue moon… Overall which one would I say is worse? Honestly, forces. Only because of how infuriating it was to hear fistbump in less than an hour after the first time it forced me to listen to it. Then the movements being either glued or put onto ice was also annoying, stages are too short for the full songs which annoys me more because they were actually quite nice, and honestly- frontiers just had better timing and design for both its music and gameplay even with some inconsistency in mechanics. Would I say forces is THAT bad? No, id recommend a one time play sticker, mainly because once you finish the story it’s bland. Somehow more bland than whatever infinite was supposed to even be as a character. It’s the type of game that once the story ends, there’s almost nothing to do despite what the game says. Because nothing, is new. Same with cyberspace unless you’re the achievement hunter or speed runner type.

[@DarthReggie]

2 jp bangers in one month? Damn damn the holidays came early

[@Mattice]

More than a month; this is twice in the span of a week!

[@Crow_Rising]

This is a more in depth take on what I've been saying for a long time now. Linear level design has worked fantastically in Sonic games before and many of the most highly praised entries such as SA2 and Generations have primarily linear level design. What makes or breaks a Sonic stage isn't how rich with alternative pathways it is, but what the stage does to keep itself engaging along the way. Occasionally getting an option to take an entirely different pathway is a big enhancer that is almost always appreciated as it adds to the replay value, but it's not in and of itself what defines good Sonic level design. Generally speaking, I care about three things in Sonic stages: 1. Room to improve my skill over time with a choice to shoot for fastest time or highest score or even an optimized mix between the two whenever possible. Stages from the beginning of the game to the end should have a fair difficulty curve and should generally be easy to complete but hard to master in the early game, and a fair and not overly difficult challenge to complete but very rewarding to master in the late game. 2. A sense of being able to play through the stage differently in some form from playthrough to playthrough. That is to say, hazards and obstacles that can be avoided in more than one way and that reward and punish the player differently depending on what actions are taken. Example: In a quick step section, there could be some hazards that the player could either sidestep, slide under, or jump over, but each of these actions could come with their own pros and cons with multiple valid options but also multiple options that just get you hurt or killed. One valid option might be better for speed but sacrifice score, another might be slower but reward a bigger score payout, and another might be a fair mix between the two. 3. A sense of individuality from stage to stage. Unique visuals, unique gameplay gimmicks, etc. Even if the above two points are handled well, if the stages blend together too much it gets old and overstays its welcome. This goes for boss fights too, I don't want to fight the same boss multiple times but slightly harder over time, I'd rather each boss fight be different enough to be immediately distinct and identifiable at a glance.

[@dymaz_azure]

Wait.... i was supposed to collect points in adventure 2????

[@captainpoopindoofus3853]

I’m probably one of few people who doesn’t care about multiple pathways since when you really think about them you’re gonna want to stick with only one since the other ways to go on are slower and/ or more boring. I also don’t find the s rank an interesting enough thing to go after for score since I’m more concerned about my own skill instead which systems like sa2 and colors’ don’t focus on. Because of this I disagree that there’s little value to get out of the cyberspace levels since speedrunning them is plenty of reason for wanting to replay them. You could do that for the other games but since they’re more restrictive on their design that don’t have much in the way of a skill ceiling they make me feel underwhelmed on how little choice I have which most of the cyberspace levels I think do offer.

[@TheScarletWing2490]

To be honest, linear level design in a game where the point is going fast isn't an issue. The issue is when it gets _too_ linear and you literally just have to hold the boost button and let the game play itself, like you're playing the Sonic Dash mobile game. But in a game about a supersonic blue hedgehog, we absolutely need some linearity so that we can feel that speed that Sonic is so famous for. It's not easy to get it down right. You can easily either make the level too busy, too crowded, and so you annoy the player with too much platforming, or you fall into the Forces / Cyberspace trap of it being too linear with little to no engaging challenges to break the monotony (seriously Forces is the first Sonic game where I legitimately got BORED of playing. Yeah, some jumps here and there but for the most part just boost to win). But so far, what I'm seeing from Shadow Generations, I think we're gonna be fine. The levels are engaging enough that you don't just fall asleep holding down boost, but you still get enough straight paths to really let Shadow cut loose with his speed.

[@ManuPlays05]

Amazing video!! This is one of the best sonic channels Can't wait for sonic unleashed remaster some day

[@Easmodx]

Someone needs to get Pariah to listen to the ranking system portion of this video. Making ranking systems strictly based on time rewards you for blitzing through levels without engaging with them. That's fine for speedruns but I like having a reason to master the levels. There have been instances of time based ranks done well because the game is centered around them (Unwiished and Advance 3 are good examples) but generally I prefer score ranks while having the separate option to time attack levels. Well, at least when the S ranks aren't just handed to you for free like in Forces.

[@seto_kaiba_]

Open world Sonic is really good too though. Play the Sonic/Mario 64 (+Shadow) rom. It basically has Sonic with his natural physics and moves in an open Mario stage and it shines bright. Probably ironically one of the best Sonic (or Mario for that matter) games I have ever played.

[@seematahir5970]

I find it interesting how SA1 and 06 were omitted from this discussion. That might just have been a coincidence, but they are definitely the 3D Sonics that stray the most from linear level designs.

[@sonicsama]

great video dude, actual good breakdown of design aspects involved in these games

[@mober7430]

Like people say SA1 stages are open which means they are good. Literally the only actual Open Stages in the game are Red Mountain, Beta Windy Valley, and Twinkle Park. Idk why people think Linear is bad cause tbh it’s a lot of times better.

[@gamerprods124]

Disagree with you about Cyberspace. I like those levels.

[@evdestroy4121]

no no no we need massive levels with a heavy emphasis on momentum so we can fly past all of the level design (peak, raw, fire)

[@petrock4041]

ソニック・アドベンチャー

[@realnova7429]

I'm gonna say something very controversial: Lost World was the last good Sonic game. When I understood the hiden mechanics I started having lots of fun with it.

[@sucrino]

I really like your video, and get the point, but I want to ask about both SonicGT, the demo of Rollin' Rascal and level design, they share in some way. So does it count as a linear? And what do you think of them in general?

[@JP2427]

I haven't played either as of yet, so I don't really have anything to say on them atm :(

[@TheBohobemeister]

Wonderful video!

[@jurassicarkjordanisgreat1778]

When working on my fan game I realized quickly how liner levels are better for sonic than open ones. Too many people see linearity as bad due to bad examples that have spoiled the bunch

[@gamingdudedonal3312]

You're correct but i dont think its the linearity that people are most warned about i think its the automation

[@Cway34]

We like alternate paths though for a skill ceiling

[@scutoid-backrooms]

these levels don't even seem that linear, am i crazy? i see loads of different paths than the ones the player goes down through, except for in the radical highway section.

[@JakeThehedgehog-m1x]

I don't think Cyberspace Levels were bad.. considering nost of them are re-used soo..yeah people mostly didn't have any problem with levels themselves people didn't like the Cyberspace because of its controls, physics and sonic feels abit slow which kills the fun not the levels.. I see most of the complains are about these issues not the levels

[@quakerdx5435]

That’s what I’ve been saying ever since people were begging sega to make an open world game.

[@NIMPAK1]

The problem with modern Sonic level design is that the level controls the character, not the player. Frontiers would've been an improvement if the devs knew how to program 3D movement again and going back to mind-numbing simon says gameplay AGAIN isn't going to cut it. But he's got a new hat- I mean cynically added a popular character to cash-in on the upcoming movie so it MUST be good. Totally worth paying full price for 90% of a game you already own despite all the free fangames by people who actually give a crap and know how to program.

[@kaobunn]

"cynically added" yeah i dont think so lol

[@JaydenXV]

Good use of SA2

[@Mattice]

I kinda want to replay sonic heroes now

[@windy3935]

Pretty good video, but I think you missed hard with Frontiers. Frontiers and Forces should not be in categorized together nor compared as if they're onpar. It had fully 3D stages (which not even the Adventures and none of the boost games could manage), and several long levels 3mins+ (which im not sure why you left out) unlike Forces. Coitizing Cyber Space too as if those arcadey platforming levels were the focus this time around (they weren't; the Open Zones were) and comparing them to previous Sonic games where they were the focus... is silly, as unlike Forces they also acted more inline with Special Stages. The mostly shorter stage times compliments that view. Lastly, slowing Sonic down and not allowing him to boost through enemies were evidently purposeful and done to bring back a more Adventure style feel and pace in the levels. That's one of those forced criticisms for something it's not trying to be (Unl/Gens/Colors/Forces) that bugs me.

[@Hyp3rLynxOfficial]

ima stand on my opinion that 2d view really sets sonic franchise backwards.

[@MatrixEvolution17]

Shadow Generations having a lot of returning staff from OG Generations has me confident that it will be good! It just makes me wonder where they've been hiding this whole time

[@joeser6666]

at nintendo

[@SpinyPuffs]

​@@joeser6666not entirely true

[@joeser6666]

@@SpinyPuffs at least that's what i heard

[@ChibiSteak]

14:28 fin.

[@Rihcterwilker]

Stages should not be a linear path. They should be exactly what the name says: a path, but that will branch out to different routes, to allow for secrets and replayability.

[@DSK_Terrence_Official]

Ranking was always Time-Based, look at unleashed, i have to finish rooftop run in a minute to get an S Rank

[@Doobie-kx8fk]

Time influences ranking but interestingly enough it isnt the only factor. I spent 11 minutes in rooftop run collecting medals and still got an S due to my enemy, speed, and ring score being extremely high lol.

[@evdestroy4121]

Ranking was never intended to be time based; they didn't start doing that until Gens. SA2, Heroes, Shadow, 06, Unleashed, and Colors all take score into account when determining your rank, it's just that the time feeds into your time bonus. Even in Gens, your ring count does still feed into your rank (even if it's far less important).

[@DSK_Terrence_Official]

@@evdestroy4121 its time based for my unleashed

[@evdestroy4121]

@@DSK_Terrence_Official You have the Wii/PS2 version. The main version of Unleashed for 360 and PS3 has the traditional score-based system. Defeating enemies, collecting rings, and having a good time all factor into your score for what rank you get at the end of a stage.

[@DSK_Terrence_Official]

@@evdestroy4121 i have the 360 version

[@bottomtext593]

Its not the linearity that bothers me about Shadows portion. Its the amount of mechanics from Sonic's portion that are missing from Shadows portion like lightspeed dash and trickshot pads.

[@rep9303]

That thumbnail😍

[@epicness877]

Thank you bruv, theres too many folks in gaming as a whole that think if something has bad examples or does not fit their preferences, it is an inherently poor design / design philosophy. Now if only this was also realized about momentum shenanigans and extra "control" in scripted segments...

[@spritvio639]

Great Video!

[@JoseGregorioValeroVillarroel]

Linearity is not a bad thing.

[@Sonicfalcon16]

A Tale of Two Extremes: Played games that were straight forward and wanted something more open. Then made a REALLY open game but people can easily get lost when they're trying to just reach the goal with no focus of progress vs wandering. Massive over corrections in games outside of spark 3D games which have a path that says "this is progress" so you dont get lost

[@brickzoneanimations8395]

Forces has way too much automation, its level design is poor and there is no substance or reward when taking multiple routes, Frontiers Cyberspace at least makes me play a game sure there is some automation here and there, the spin dash is so fun to use when playing it and at least in some multiple paths make it rewarding its not amazing and it just reuses assets but I would rather play all of the cyberspace stages than forces!

[@leonardowynnwidodo9704]

Personally, the reason recent games are terrible is because of Sonic’s new designs and animations. I mean, he now has shorter quills and is a lighter shade of blue; it’s almost like Classic Sonic in his growth spurt. And what’s with the spin jump being a ball with spikes? It looks childish. The one in which Sonic curls into a ball with his aura looks so much cooler. Another personal criticism is how Shadow Generations, despite tied with the remastered Sonic Generations, still use the same designs and animations. I’m very pissed at this. Whoever made this designs has no taste in design. Bring back the original ones before I take over Sonic Team

[@andersonsansonowski5644]

Best sonic vid in years

[@Tailsfly593]

This was the worst analysis of level design in a Sonic game video

[@lemon5000-tj6nv]

Me when I lie:

[@Tailsfly593]

@@lemon5000-tj6nv be queit kid

[@LegendryHeropon]

let's see you do better

[@GreyOatmeal]

Great insights

[@clasherinotheone5249]

Shadow the hedgehog >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sonic heroes Heroes sucks in my opinion haha 😆

[@joeser6666]

speedrunning is nerd as hell, score huge points like real men

[@dreeddoes]

good video🙏

[@Euro.Patriot]

Sonic will never be more than just a laughing stock, most of the franchise's good games were released over a decade ago. SEGA has no good ideas, all they do is recycle old stuff and that's how Mania was made.

[@majorastorm]

Idk i just hate 2D sections

[@Technonova323]

Honestly I just want a good game with actual good levels. Don't care if it's linear or open. Just give me something to enjoy, PLEASE.

[@noharmlive]

Spark the Electric Jester 3 looks more fun and engaging than any mainline Sonic game I've ever played. That game does Sonic gameplay better than Sonic. Now that's a game we SHOULD be talking about.

[@dextersdad6920]

NOPE. frontiers shits on spark. Foh

[@kaobunn]

ANY mainline game? that's a stretch

[@bluudevil4483]

​@@dextersdad6920 hes right

[@bluudevil4483]

​@@kaobunnyes any. most mainline 3d sonic games do suck if they didn't this video wouldn't even be in discussion big dog

[@kaobunn]

@@bluudevil4483 they really don't, the worst its gotten is like forces and 06, and even those have their fanbases theres always this narrative sonic games were never good but id argue its all subjective

[@CMJ321]

YEAH! I have alot of nitpicks but i believe they could be COOKING! Let just hope all my issues are because its the first level if not itll probably be just better than cyberspace and forces but worse than unleashed colours and gens but i have FAITH in SEGA and SONIC TEAM!

[@dreamcastdazia4753]

Getting tired of people mentioning frontiers with this argument as if its tge main oart of the game when they're just mini games. You dont even need to beat cyberspace levels to.l best the game. Deep it. Completely optional levels. Its not meant to fully resemble older boost games thag much. The levels are tiny. If they created it to be more like generations or unleashed the levels would be done in 10 seconds. Everything in cyberspace was done intentionally so idk why people bring it up

[@JP2427]

Its still a part of the gameplay loop, so I think its fair to criticize it for (in my opinion) not being all that fun

[@marioreyes6471]

Boost is trash

[@Hyp3rSonic]

Respectfully disagree, cyberspace levels are good, especially some specific ones

[@MMDAQ]

While I agree, sonic heroes sucks

[@NeonStudios763]

sorry but hard disagree heroes is great

[@MMDAQ]

@@NeonStudios763 who asked?

[@NeonStudios763]

@@MMDAQ ‘who asked’ ☝️🤓 shut up before i beat yo ass with the super power of teamwork

[@NeonStudios763]

@@MMDAQ who asked ☝️🤓 shut up with that corny shit before i beat yo ass with the superpower of teamwork

[@Rexicojone]

L take bozo

[@Yadeeyadeeyadah]

It should be linear but difficult to go fast in

[@krockoart3962]

Honestly, Forces for me was a product of bad level design and poorly calibrated controls on the Switch that made doing anything remotely reminescent of boost gameplay rage fuel. Command input is slow and it is punishing.