Sonic Forces - Sonic Was Always Good

[@CassiusStelar]

SONIC FORCES KILLED MY GRANDMA, OK

[@JM57-99]

What character was she using??

[@CassiusStelar]

@@JM57-99 *I* was the one playing. [Flashback] that day, I was lost in S Rank attempts, and I didn't see her trying to warn me

[@JM57-99]

@@CassiusStelar [Faded Hills starts playing]

[@thislink1519]

Capping killed my Pybro!

[@sugarsmile7852]

I eat my grandma

[@rando6677]

This video is longer than all of Modern sonic stages in this game lol 💀

[@Hyp3rSonic]

Is that true tho? 🤔

[@starfGD]

​ @Hyp3rSonic actually yeah all modern sonic stages is 10 minutes, look it up lol

[@Hyp3rSonic]

@@starfGD well, I think my best times on all modern sonic stages are less then the videos length. Anyways, ik that my Mortal Canyon PB is 54.54

[@bonnymel4506]

@@Hyp3rSonic Surprisingly yes, if you count the average time to beat every boost stage, you do get around 25 minutes This game is mostly Classic Sonic

[@Hyp3rSonic]

​@@bonnymel4506ik this is kinda late, but that actually makes sense. Classic Sonic does have actual level design, barring his controls Also. Iron Fortress takes like 2 minutes and 30 seconds to 3 minutes

[@Gnidel]

People expected something big because the premise was big. "Eggman conquered the entire world and recruited old foes!" And ruined every step of the premise. - Eggman - it doesn't really show how world looks like under Eggman's rule. Returning stages but mixed Eggmanland is something that writes itself. - Conquered - entire conquest is done offscreen with black screen with text. - Entire world - it sounds like another world adventure like Unleashed but doesn't really explore it. Wouldn't it be cool to see polluted Seaside Hill, Mazuri where Eggman is doing petty revenge for that rock, Robotnikland in ruins of Station Square... So much lost potential to explore the changed world. - Recruited - no, he didn't, those are illusions. It would be so interesting to see what would convince real Chaos and Shadow to join Eggman. It's interesting mystery that got ruined. - Old foes - Only Zavok got a proper boss fight. Metal Sonic got Infinite 3 reskin, which is disappointing. Chaos and Shadow got defeated in one shot in a cutscene, so we don't even fight them... Because of that, the game was a big bundle of disappointment. It simply promised too much and didn't deliver anything. If it promised as much it provided - decent simple adventure without annoying alternate gameplay styles and filler - it would be better received.

[@galten7361]

@Gnidel We already saw Eggman wins scenarios in CD if you mess up and in Unleashed. There's really nothing new in it Forces did besides throwing in a transparent attempt to pander to the cut of the fandom into the DiC shows and Archie with Fleetway.

[@rynobehnke8289]

And you didn't even mention the expectations people on on Infinite after all the hyping up the trails made and him having this OP rock that matched Super Sonic from Mania and all.

[@charmyzard]

There had to be a degree of false advertisement in there somewhere indeed.

[@galten7361]

@rynobehnke8289 The expectations were just him being another Shadow and otherwise not matching fanfic ideas. The actual idea behind Infinite is that he was a merc who wished he could be a king in the post-apocalypse and made up some fantasy world where he was some mega badass killer but got smacked around by Shadow and that made that fantasy world die. He's frankly interesting for a Sonic villain since he's pretty much just its version of a spree killer or mass killer soldier under Eggman. He'd be someone who'd post on reddit on how Rick Sanchez or BBC Sherlock or whatever comic supervillain is just like him who got magical jewelry that allowed him to blow up anyone who looked at him funny.

[@jurassicarkjordanisgreat1778]

They could have had a sonic cd time travel system for classic sonic where he had to go back to the past and fix the world after eggman turned it into a bad future. I wish green hill looked more like palm tree panic bad future. This comment also took the words out of my mouth. Forces was such a disappointment and has tainted the sonic lore for a long time They took one of the most wanted plots for sonic and ruined it.

[@beanxiiicriii]

I cannot believe I read a title with “Sonic Forces” and “Sonic Was Always Good” near eachother.

[@lightzthestarz]

Had to reread it, even as someone who watches all these

[@luccaassis2148]

@@lightzthestarz Even Lost World got the title, despite being the worst mainline game 😬

[@Mister_Jay_Tee]

It absolutely is not. ​@@luccaassis2148

[@charmyzard]

@@luccaassis2148 Right, yet TSR didn't.

[@CanaldoZenny]

"Was always good" implies past-tense: Sonic used to be good, now he is not.

[@Kriseiri]

the thing about Forces is that it's not really "bad", just mediocre to an almost malicious degree. it's the most 5/10 thing to ever exist.

[@Gabriel-cq3cq]

Funny you say that,considering I also put forces around 5/10 it’s not an absolutely awful game like lost world, but it doesn’t do anything we haven’t already seen. And the stuff it does do is substantially worse than the games it originally came from. I used to hate forces, but nowadays I just don’t care about the game enough to bash on it so much.

[@CringusMcDingus]

How is lost world awful? I don't think it's good or anything, but it's not so atrocious that no one should speak of it! Not defending it or anything, I just feel like the hate is a little exaggerated

[@Gabriel-cq3cq]

Oh no I’m definitely over exaggerating, and it’s not like i ignore lost world entirely, I’m talking about it right now aren’t I? It’s just that lost world isn’t trying to be a sonic game at all. It was a Mario game first and a sonic fake second, and it didn’t even do a good job at copying Mario galaxy. I mean cmon, they didn’t even bother with zavok spiky gauntlets, lava castles, growing big and spewing flames out of his mouth? Could you make a more unoriginal villain than that. I could go on and on but the point is, lost world doesn’t try to be a sonic game. Almost everything that makes sonic “sonic” is totally gone here, mainly through gameplay. Hopefully that answers your question cringus

[@CringusMcDingus]

@@Gabriel-cq3cq oh, ok

[@pinhe4d321]

Did you play both Mario Galaxy and Sonic Lost World​@@Gabriel-cq3cq

[@LoudToon99]

I think another factor to why Forces gets this hyperbolic PTSD reaction is that it was arguably the accumulation of alot of problems people had in with the 2010's decade of Sonic, combined with how it was hard to be a Sonic fan in peace at the time. It made alot of fans, especially those of the 2000's games, become really vocal about how Sonic was being mistreated and thus becoming more appreciative of the 2000's era games for what they tried to accomplish.

[@theimpersonator7086]

TelekinesticMan made a recent good video on how 3D Sonic level/game design had fallen into a lot of repeptive traps over the years like Homing Attack chains, very automated sections, etc. Feel like Forces was the culmination of all of those traps.

[@CanaldoZenny]

I also believe Sonic Forces is the crystallization of that brand of 2010's Sonic, particularly western Sonic. One of the core pillars of the Sonic IP in the 2010's was the social media accounts, and the people in charge of those social media accounts would often engage by making fun of how bad Sonic games were. It clearly worked, because they got a lot of attention and followers for it. It was one of the few things people liked about Sonic back then, the social media. Forces' writing is like Tweeter Sonic writing. Someone here already pointed how Forces feels like Sonic Team was trying to please everyone to the point the game felt like a game generated by Reddit posts. The fact this game got a Sanic T-shirt DLC shows what the target audience for this game was. It truly was a sad and pathetic videogame.

[@snakey888]

The irony is that Sonic was way more mistreated in the 2000's than Forces even comes close to.

[@atavious2491]

​​@@CanaldoZenny So you're saying that social media ruined Sonic? Yeah I can quite see that. Although I think some are right to say that it was still wasted potential in the sense that they could've done more than just reuse things that have been done before. It doesn't add anything new and hence, only adds onto mediocrity. So I still think it was wasted potential. You don't have a clear vision or direction on where you want to go. I think some can agree that it's still wasted potential nonetheless.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

​@@snakey888true!

[@graemehutton2433]

Forces feels to me a game that was trying to please as many fans as possible and in doing so pleased none: "you guys like boost games? Sure! You still think Classic is best? Have him too. All you furry fans wanna make your OCs? Go ahead. You guys want the Freedom Fighters vibe? Go for it! You want another dark, emo animal villain? By all means. Wisps? Sure!...." and so on, so on. It's like if an AI tried to make a Sonic game based entirely on Reddit posts.

[@theimpersonator7086]

Yeah, the classic saying of "By trying to please everyone, you please no one." Trying to please every single group in the Sonic fanbase likely isnt possible, best have different teams that work on seperate games.

[@manzanito3652]

Another "sonic team puts elements from previous games without understanding why people liked those games"

[@c0npl3xOP]

You tired of having to collect the emeralds. Well you can just buy super sonic for free!

[@Blanktester685]

would be nice to just have the actual freedom fighters then just the "vibe" but then again they would just be inferior to the original portrayals so it wouldn't matter that much.

[@graemehutton2433]

@@Blanktester685 agreed. I don't know why they don't put them in a "Classic Sonic" game: they clearly want a different set of supporting characters between the two styles- can you imagine the hype if they stuck Sally in a game instead of some random new lizard girl? I know for some fans it wouldn't be a big deal, but if you're banking on 90s nostalgia it seems a no brainer.

[@galacticspecter4364]

I think the main reason Forces has such a negative legacy is the state of the Sonic series when it came out. Coming off of Lost World and Sonic Boom with a game that’s just mediocre was the last straw for a lot of Sonic fans. 2017 was the year Breath of the Wild, Mario Odyssey and Resident Evil 7 came out, all these long-running game series were redefining themselves to widespread praise. Meanwhile Sonic was just throwing out another budget title that was a worse version of a game that came out 2011.

[@theimpersonator7086]

Seeing Mario Odyssey give Mario a legit Spindash, but Sonic Forces having very bland level design was something lol.

[@offlineterminated]

For freaking real. One thing that many “pessimist” fans have said that always got under my skin is that Sonic isn’t in the best place he could be, or that the newer games are buggier and are not up to quality compared to other franchises. And as much as I hate to admit it, I’m beginning to see their point. Why does Sonic always have to released rushed games that are barely finished and end up getting a 5-7 on metacritic? It’s barely below the bar and the franchise deserves better than this.

[@ClassikSprites]

24:50 To clear up some confusion, Sonic Forces (the actual game itself) was only in development for 1 year (2016-2017). The rest of the development time was spent on the conceptual stage (2014-2016) and the development of Hedgehog Engine 2 (that started in 2013 after Sonic Lost World).

[@manzanito3652]

4 years to make an engine and inmediately throw it to the trash after 1 game in favor of unreal, because these people couldn't make one good decision to save their lives.

[@dirtkiller23]

​​​@@manzanito3652to be fair, HE2 was later used in Mario&Sonic games, Sakura Wars, and Frontiers with Shadow Generations coming up next,so it's definitely not abandoned

[@manzanito3652]

@@dirtkiller23 Wasn't frontiers made eith unreal?

[@ContextuallyDeContextualized]

​@@manzanito3652 Frontiers wasn't made with UE

[@tadaokou4919]

"Why this game? Why is this one so much worse than anything else the series has done before?" & "But I don't really know why people would expect so much for this game." The thing with games like Lost World, Boom and similar stuff is that those games all had new gameplay styles. Forces was going to use the boost formula again and basically every boost game is beloved (let's ignore the Werehog in Unleashed). So people were expecting a return to form. A return to Colours, Unleashed and/or Generations. *Edit: Yes, even Colours is beloved. Doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with that. It is beloved and it certainly was even more beloved before Forces came out.* People especially thought this because they marketed the game with the words "from the team who made Sonic COLOURS and Sonic GENERATIONS!" (or something similar to that). So, people were rightfully excited because those games are popular which can only mean that Forces must be similar if it's made by the same people. Nobody could have thought that this statement basically was a marketing lie. I mean, sure. Companies lie all the time. But that statement basically was a straight up lie JUST to market the game. Technically speaking it wasn't a lie because (for example) the writers were the same, but we all know that nobody thought about the writing when they told us that lie. It's technically speaking not false marketing but we all know that in all actuality...it is false marketing. It was similar to what Gamefreak pulled with Pokemon Sword/Shield. Only with Gamefreak it was actually a big deal due to how much bigger Pokemon as a franchise is in comparison to Sonic. Also, the Pokemon community was actually surprised by how bad Sword/Shield turned out (I actually liked Gen 8, but many people didn't). In other words: they weren't as desperate for good games in their franchise as the Sonic fanbase was. People were also pretty charitable towards Sonic Team & SEGA in the timeframe before Forces released. Why? Well, firstly people were just desperate for a new good Sonic game due to how much the franchise and it's community was being viewed as a joke...and secondly people thought "finally they listen to the fans and give us what we want. A new boost Sonic game!" Also, like I'm gonna mention below in a bit more detail...many KZbinrs hyped Forces way more up than it actually deserved which also raised expectations. Personally speaking I also thought that the game looked pretty bad in early gameplay showcases. But I was willing to give it a chance because...well, it's from "The Team who made Sonic Colours and Sonic Generations" so it had so be good, right? Surely it's just gonna be the early stages which play completely automated, right? Well, how foolish I was. And many other people were similarly foolish due to SEGAs completely disingenuous marketing. A lot of people since then have trust issues in SEGA and Sonic because Forces marketing actually actively lied to us. Sure, Boom was bad. Sure, Lost World was bad. But at least they didn't lie to us while marketing those games. And "enjoy a breathtaking adventure" or similar stuff doesn't count as a lie in my opinion because that's just general marketing stuff. Nobody gives anything about statements like that anymore. But "Enjoy this breathtaking adventure made by the people who made these games which you previously loved and adored and still play to this day!" ...Well, that's obviously a straight up lie. I also personally remember that a lot of KZbinrs in the timeframe shortly before Forces released were actually praising the game. Some even claiming "I got to play it and I think it's more fun than Mario Odyssey!" That also stirred up more hype about the game which made the whole experience even worse once people actually experienced the product. In short: Sure, Forces isn't really the worst Sonic game. But it was the one which felt the most disingenuously marketed and it actually felt like SEGA was lying to us. The only other game in the franchise where something similarly disingenuous happened was Sonic 06. That's also why people compare Forces and 06. Not because both games are similar in quality (Forces is sadly but clearly the better one) but because both games feel like complete a**holemoves towards the fanbase. Also something similarly important to mention here: Both games are embarrassing in comparison to similar games which came out around the same time. Edit: Yes, Sonic Forces was only a 40€/$ game, but I just thought "Oh, they can't put the price higher due to how short Sonic games boost usually are." I was a bit worried about the quality of the game due to the 40€/$ price but that was explainable, at least to me (in some places it actually was fully priced, I think). Another edit: I personally also disagree with some of the games you listed as being "worse" than Forces. I enjoy the 8-Bit Sonic games more in comparison to Forces (but only the fan remakes). I enjoy Lost Worlds main version more in comparison to Forces. That game does have a huge amount of flaws but at least the gameplay is unique and not a sucky watered down version of gameplay style which I love & adore. And some stages in Lost World are actually fun to speedrun. Mainly the ones which have mostly 3D gameplay & no gimmicks. I would play Sonic & the Black Knight ANY day over Forces and I'm not just saying that because of the story. Every time I play Black Knight I have fun in doing so without any degrading thoughts towards the game (except the motion controls, but Dolphin fixes that). Every time I play Forces I don't have fun doing so because most of the time I'm just thinking "I should play Unleashed, Colours or Generations right now." I instinctively compare those games due to how similar the gameplay is and I instinctively get annoyed while playing Forces due to how much I compare it to it's boost predecessors. Sorry, but I just have to say it once: Forces sucks. It's terrible. Not because it actually is a bad game but because in comparison to daytime Unleashed gameplay or...well, all of Generations it just falls flat. And the only way for me to SOMEWHAT enjoy Forces is to shut out the nagging voice in my head which just continuously tells me "Unleashed is better, why are you playing this?! Stop playing this. Play a better game!" Also, they fu**ed up the controls. The acceleration feels completely off and that is a HUGE issue in my opinion. Is the game unplayable due to the controls? No. But does it feel bad & unnatural in comparison to previous boost Sonic games? Yes. And that's saying something because previous boost games also had issues in that regard. Another late edit: Every time I try to post my response towards @theomnigamer9177 KZbin basically just says no and deletes it almost instantly. Really fair that I'm getting attacked but am not allowed to defend myself. Thank you, KZbin. He is allowed to insult me multiple times, but I'm not allowed to respond. Great... Now, I'm just gonna post my response in here now: I mean...it's kinda funny how you call me insufferable while basically non-stop attacking me personally in your comment. Look at yourself first. I won't even entertain a comment that starts with "Your comment is just yapping." Grow up first. Maybe learn how to formulate a discussion. "Nice yap session you did on behalf of the Sonic fans who are insufferable and have bad opinions." Man, way to go presenting yourself as insufferable. Good job. Again, grow up first. Than we can talk about your..."arguments". "There is only one level that I enjoyed in that game because it felt like the Unleashed Team came in for 1 level." Wow, your subjective opinion certainly is fact and you have the wisdom on what makes a good game and what doesn't. It's not like subjective opinions are...you know...subjective? Look at Pariah's video on Sonic Colours. He thinks it's one of the best 3D Sonic games and his *subjective* reasoning is perfectly fine. But...I'm not really pointing that sentence of yours out because I disagree with it, but to showcase how unpleasant you present yourself here. "I'm right, you're wrong and that's fact!" -you, basically. Again, look at yourself first. Maybe tone down the personal attacks and stop calling opinions which aren't yours dumb. Maybe than people would be willing to talk to you. "It’s because it’s a game made by Sonic Team" It might shock you, but not every Sonic Team game is made by the same developer team. Adventure 1 & 2 had different people working on it. Unleashed & Black Knight had totally different teams working on it. And so on. Different people working under the label of "Sonic Team" doesn't mean anything which is just common sense for most people. Also, while I usually don't like to bring up likes on my comments...148 people disagree with you. Not really an argument but showcases perfectly fine how a portion of the Sonic fanbase felt towards Forces & why they felt the way that they did.

[@charmyzard]

Correct. This game had its hand set to win, and they... bungled it up.

[@sugarsmile7852]

Sometimes i wonder why the comment section is better then the video Also i argue about sonic boom rise of lyric having false advertising by cutting contents that was shown in early trailers,but then i remembered the behind scenes of this game and the fact it was designed for consoles that wasn't the Wii U so it gets a pass i guess

[@azylan]

sonic fans can handle a game with poor ideas, a game that is janky, a game that is confusing... but we can't handle a game that feels cynical and soulless. between the total lack of vision involved in the game, the shallow attempts to pander to every single demographic of sonic fan at once, the regression in gameplay and story compared to previous games, and the most disingenuous marketing campaign sega has pulled since 06, forces felt like a big middle finger to anybody who was invested in sonic as a franchise. pariah said he didn't believe that forces was a soulless and cynical game, i disagree. a game pumped out without a vision is inherently cynical, it felt like this game only existed to perpetuate the sonic franchise and to turn another profit rather than to share something valuable and interesting with the consumer. say what you will about the storybook games, or about 06, but at least those games were interesting. even lost world had some interesting mechanics to play around with. there was clearly some thought put behind making these games memorable and impactful, even if they failed in the end. i cannot say the same for forces. if pariah believes otherwise then i'd like to hear his opinion but he didn't really explain these things in the video. maybe he has different ideas than i do about what it means for a game to be cynical.

[@tadaokou4919]

@@sugarsmile7852 Cutting content is a shitty thing to do but that part is at least understandable and happens all the time in gaming. That's just something we sadly have to deal with. But there is a difference between "sorry, we couldn't finish all the environments for the finished product, but we tried our best." in comparison to "sorry, we told you this game was made by the people who made games which you previously loved, but in actuality it wasn't. But thanks for the money anyway!" The first statement doesn't feel like a lie to me because if they had more time & budged Sonic Boom could have turned out different. When they showed early Sonic Boom trailers they probably were actually planning to include all the trailer content into the final product. The second statement wouldn't change with time & money. They knowingly lied to us from the get-go with Forces and that lie wouldn't suddenly become true with more time & budget. So in short: I think there is a huge difference between showing stuff which sadly doesn't make it into the final product & straight up knowingly lying into our faces. Sonic Boom felt like tough luck in that regard. Forces actually feels malicious towards the fanbase. Not malicious by Sonic Team/the devs who worked on the game but by the people who marketed the game & the higher ups at SEGA.

[@stanzacosmi]

fun fact. if you actually look at how the acceleration works in sonic forces, and how the boost gauge works, you can actually see that sonic's physics act more like an automatic version of lost worlds' run button and boost is super sonic's boost with a slapped on meter

[@ChannelPup]

I think what made Sonic Forces such a sticking point among Sonic fans wasn't so much the game itself but the precedent it set. Like yeah, Rise of Lyric was a failed experiment, Lost World was super experimental, where all Sonic Forces really had to do was just make more of Sonic Generations in a new console generation. Now I didn't own a Wii U so I missed out on Rise of Lyric and Lost World until it came to PC, so this was my first post-Generations 3D Sonic game, and it was just disheartening to see that a completely non-experimental game that used existing playstyles that were good, could unearth brand new issues seemingly out of nowhere. And it raised the question of like, is this just what Sonic games are now? Tiny levels? Barely any player input? Fortunately Frontiers proved me wrong.

[@mobas07]

Sonic Forces fails at everything it set out to do, that's why people hate it. It has Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic but both of them play worse than in Generations. It has boost style levels but they're worse than the ones in the other boost games. It had a great premise with the story being more of a focus and a more serious tone, and then we got an absolute mess of a plot that barely makes any sense. The avatar was shown off as this amazing thing where you could make your own character like in Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2, but the visual customisations sucked and the gameplay was just a worse version of Sonic but with wips (even though there's no reason why Sonic shouldn't have been able to just use the wisps himself). Basically after Generations they released Lost World which was terrible, then we waited all this time and were hyped up by the trailers showing all these cool things, and then when the game actually came out it was a complete let down. People are completely justified in hating this game, it scarred people so badly that now when we see Shadow boost in a straight line for a half a second we all have PTSD flashbacks to Sonic Forces. I remember when the Frontiers gameplay trailer dropped and Sonic was able to accelerate smoothly and the stomp impact sound played when you hit the ground instead of when you pressed the button, I was genuinely relieved because any scraps of faith I had in Sonic Team had been completely shattered after Forces. Sonic Forces was so terrible that they managed to mess up Sonic accelerating forwards in a straight line, that's the level the game is at in a lot of people's eyes.

[@Voltricity435]

the fact that they screwed up sonic accelerating in a straight line is truly remarkable

[@gameman5804]

Forces has problems, dude… but PTSD isn’t justified. Even with all that said, the hate this game got was overblown as shit and if Sonic Team had another year, everything could’ve been more fleshed out and refined. From the complaints on Linearity, Hedgehog Engine 2, Custom Avatar standing in for Sonic’s Friends, etc… Now to go off on a tangent, You know what I think about Frontiers, in spite of giving it some deserved leeway? Frontiers is overcorrection. It was made for people who never played a Sonic Game, or the ones who think linearity was the main problem with Sonic Games. Sure the writing is better, and it’s fun to run around the open worlds, but it feels too generic. Plus any level from Forces is better than Cyberspace because the controls make me wish I was on autopilot. With what Sonic X Shadow Generations is trying to do, it honestly looks like a combination between Forces and Frontiers. On the Forces end, SXS Gens looks like a more refined version of that in terms of controls and level design… and I think this is THE direction Modern Sonic Gameplay should be.

[@mobas07]

@@gameman5804 I agree with that last part, SXSG is exactly what I wanted from Forces. It plays pretty similarly to Generations but adds the bigger set pieces and QTEs from Forces. I liked Frontiers but the worst part of that game for me was the open world. If it was just level based with the guardians being mini bosses and the titans being the final boss of each "zone" that would honestly be an improvement to me. I don't dislike the cyberspace level designs but the controls are no good. Sonic is way too slow and can't drift, the boost doesn't hurt enemies and the homing attack is super slow and laggy so fighting enemies is awful. SXSG seems to fix most of that though so that's a plus.

[@legoboy7107]

@@Voltricity435 It's literally because they romhacked Lost World's run button into a fake attempt at acceleration, what happens in simple terms is that when you hold forward you start in Lost World's "walk" mode, and then after moving forward a bit the game automatically turns on "run button" mode, making that sudden jerk forward in speed. Sure, they buffed the speed of both modes considerably but it's still bad. Why on earth they decided to jerry-rig Lost World's run button into a fake attempt at acceleration instead of just having normal smooth acceleration (which is REALLY easy to do, I could probably load up a Unity project and implement it on some cube myself in 10 minutes and I've never even touched Unity in my life) I will probably never understand. Surely they didn't hard-code the run button THAT hard in the Lost World framework that they literally couldn't change it...because if so that's especially bad.

[@gameman5804]

@@mobas07 The open world is EXACTLY what I mean in terms of over-correction, and is why I genuinely feel a little bitter with Frontiers today.

[@shu7429]

I think it's a little in poor faith to say everyone who worked on this game isn't proud of the work they did. Aside from Ohtahni there are probably tons of people that worked really hard on certain aspects, environment designers, artists, level designers, sound designers etc. It's just a shame their work went to making something that was ultimately very underwhelming.

[@gadget8637]

Not to mention, there are only 3 level designers for Forces. All of which were very inexperience

[@CanaldoZenny]

10:25 It is so weird how you're so passionate about Sonic as a character and a game IP, but never delved into creative work because of it. As an artist (not a good one btw) who picked the pencil in the childhood and learned to draw because of the influence of Sonic and later even made his own Sonic OC and fanfics I can safely say that Sonic the hedgehog is more than just a videogame. For me, and this always been the case, Sonic, the real Sonic, is the drive to pursue creative endeavors. The spark that one need to do something. You said once Sonic was a very appealing character and that his design was a work of a genius, and I think that was a starting point for a lot of artists. I don't know how to explain this because I'm not a professional, but there's something in Sonic you cannot find in many places. Sonic is one of those once-in-a-generation creations that grows so large that it surpasses the medium it came from. I believe the original Sonic Team created something truly special, and every time some engage with Sonic they tap into that special mind-space that let you achieve great things. This is why I cannot bring myself to hate "modern" Sonic, at least the Sonic games from the 2000's, and all the weird yet fascinating things this fandom has created over the years. I think this is why hardcore Sonic fans dislike the 2010's games so much, but love Frontiers. Frontiers is a mess of game design, but unknowingly or not, the devs, in a few moments, tapped into that strange special place that made the game resonate with Sonic fans and artists. I haven't seen so much fan art and fan music inspired by a new Sonic since Black Knight in 2009! It is that spark, that inspiration to draw, to learn to compose music, to make your own game, to express yourself, that is what Sonic the Hedgehog is to me. Far more than just a character or a videogame. And some good things came out of the Forces' Avatar! A lot of people use the avatar customization as the starting point for making their own OCs. On Steam' forums there's always people making fan arts of their Forces' avatars and posting there. Many people struggle with coming up with character abilities or clothing, so the Avatar customization helps cross that starting line. On gamebanana there are mods to add more species to this game, like dragons. In fact, many of the new characters introduced in the IDW comics began as Forces' Avatars. They used the avatar as a starting point to get the initial idea for the character, then refined the design on paper.

[@smflash]

I don't think it's all that weird. I've been a Sonic fan since I was 5 or 6 and also never made my own OC. Yes, I did write fanfiction, and I did attempt to draw the characters, but I never made a self-insert or any other original character that existed within that world. Like Pariah, I only really cared about the characters in the games. (Also, maybe that's part of the reason why I was never able to get into the comics as a kid since those characters didn't feel like Sonic characters. Design-wise, the Archie characters don't look like they're from the same universe (stuff like having human hair and their body proportions). I also grew up with Sonic X and wasn't really a big fan of the human characters. So basically, the concept of making my own character wasn't appealing when Sonic himself existed. That, and all of his friends). But as someone who has been in the Sonic fandom for a while, I understand the prevalence of Sonic OCs. Actually, I'd be lying if I said I didn't make my own OCs, though they only served plot purposes or were created for that one time I experimented with writing a fanfic about how people who aren't associated with Sonic would react to getting mixed up with the cast's shenanigans. That latter case was written before The Murder of Sonic the Hedgehog came out.

[@MrCostard27]

Pariah is working on a sonic fan comic (i think)

[@techmuse8]

14:28 “Only the Avatar is capable of mastering all special character abilities.” Had to make that reference myself as a massive fan of ATLA lol.

[@Kanata_Satou]

I have to say replaying this game after Shadow Generations to see if it was as bad is I remembered (since their gameplay and physics are fairly similar) was dreadful to say the least,even if it is a 3 hour game at most it somehow manages to drag out since Sonic Forces is unbearably mediocre,it makes you feel absolutely nothing while playing it,hell,Shadow Generations is a longer game even in a casual playthrough yet it felt like half the entire length of Forces because of how good and fun it is,Forces on the other hand is so mediocre and bland all I had in mind while playing was the damn Goal Ring.

[@YaBoiHandman]

I know I'm jumping the gun, but I'm really curious if Pariah is gonna use the Japanese or English dialogue for the Frontiers review. I could be completely wrong but I'm assuming since Ian Flynn wrote the dialogue that the English writing is the canon story? Again could be completely wrong.

[@galten7361]

@yaboihandman He'll focus on the Eng script since it was composed first but point out relevant cuts of the JP script since it tries to make the cast act more in-character to how SoJ sees them (see Amy and Eggman with Sage especially) I'm sure.

[@anotherblob8095]

"Not to toot my own horn, but I gotta say, I think my gameplay here makes this game look pretty fun." Nah.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

I personally agree. But for me, I was already speedrunning levels from it for quite a while now(at least 5 years)

[@legoboy7107]

Honestly it does a lot of the time. I saw him performing so many tricks, skips, and other cool Sonic-y stuff to get good times that I've NEVER seen anyone else perform ever, he did genuinely make a lot of parts of the game (mostly 2D areas admittedly) look pretty fun to master.

[@anotherblob8095]

@@legoboy7107 I still don't think it looks fun because I know and can see how stiff the movement in Sonic Forces is, and the amount of stuff that can just be flown over with a jump or a boost double jump isn't fun either... I do that too, it's just boring to me.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

@@anotherblob8095 understandable 👍

[@anotherblob8095]

@Stroutta-oh7mj Yeah, I did, but he also said the boost jumping is a good thing while I said it's not fun and just boring... I could've also said that Classic Sonic is atrocious in this game but I could look past C Sonic being extremely tedious and boring if Modern Sonic was fun, but no.

[@Fewix_]

Waiting for sonic schoolhouse - sonic was always good

[@Angie2343]

Or Sonic Unfderground - Sonic Was Always Good.

[@TomboyMikayla]

"Why this game!? Why is this one so much worse than anything else the series has done before" 1. Because everyone was hyped for it 2. Because it was the most recent game 3. Because we waited 4 years for another main series Sonic game after nothing but Sonic Boom and Mobile games 4. Because Sonic Mania made it look even worse, Mario Odyssey and the Crash N.Sane Trilogy also came out the same year, 5. The False advertising (Chaos and the Gens Devs lie) 6. Because of Sonic's reputation in the 2010s 7. Because this is the most souless Sonic game, making games like 06 look like a masterpiece This vid should help: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jXXcqIqcgsRnhKcsi=UreWhuWFLYYsbYtC

[@snakey888]

This game certainly did not make 06 look like a masterpiece.

[@VirtuousAezon]

Alot of this could apply to many different sonic games, this game is no different from all the other flavors of garbage sonic games

[@TomboyMikayla]

@@VirtuousAezon Read the whole thing

[@VirtuousAezon]

@@TomboyMikayla my thoughts stay the same

[@TomboyMikayla]

@@VirtuousAezon Brand Defender

[@bigfanofsb653]

Classic Sonic's level design feels like they are designed around the physics of the original games but then they saw that the physics of forces were not half as good so added a bunch of springs all over the place.

[@LyokoGem]

God, a fair critique on Sonic Forces, you love to see it.

[@mau2172]

Literally on the lowest point of my week right now and i load up my feed to see you dropping this video like it's nothing. Felt like getting a heart attack but good

[@DonutSwordsman]

And elden ring dlc comes out soon!

[@mau2172]

​@@DonutSwordsman that is true, don't know why in the world you're bringing that up in a sonic video though

[@starrush1818]

I hope your weeks will start to get better. I'll pray for you! Also yeah his videos are awesome

[@frickerrific2813]

Honestly… upon further retrospective… sonic forces was a step in the right direction after lost world and boom 🤯

[@Hyp3rSonic]

Technically true 👍 😂

[@AdamWright-t7w]

lmfao

[@dondada3638]

Less of a step forward and more of a turning to face the right direction

[@dmclsl03]

Yes, it's overhated indeed, and I'm still gonna hate it to the grave lol

[@technicallyinept2120]

Based on

[@Hyp3rSonic]

@@dmclsl03 honestly? BASED

[@Zejgar]

25:01 It's fine, the cash grab would come later in the form of the attempted Super Sonic DLC

[@Sydney_Angelyt]

@Neawn-by5piAnd they learned absolutely nothing with Colours Ultimate

[@gameman5804]

@@Sydney_Angelyt No they learned from Ultimate, all right. Sonic Team is behind SXS Generations with even some of the people who worked on it returning. I'm pretty sure Sega Blacklisted Blind Squirrel after Ultimate... I hope.

[@spritvio639]

I think the "bad game is better than a mid game because at least the bad game makes you feel something" only works to a certain point. Like if the game is bad because it's poorly designed and leads to a lot of frustration. I'd argue a boring game is better because even if you are bored the time you are spending isn't as dreadful.

[@tadaokou4919]

Ehh, I see what you mean but being bored can also be quite dreadful. Especially if it's something like the Werehog in Unleashed where the boredom is just worsened by the fun daytime Sonic gameplay.

[@spritvio639]

​@@tadaokou4919Yeah, Unleashed is a special type of dreadful in the first playthrough.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

@@tadaokou4919 yep

[@Goobywoobygoo]

“Not very good like that’s something new to the Sonic series.” What was the title of this series again???

[@CrappyProductionsOfficial]

People had high hopes for Forces, it's been advertised as the successor to Colors and Generations, especially Generations with Classic Sonic returning, that's why everyone was hyped. But when reality sets in and all we get is a fine enough story and boring gameplay, people became mad since all their hopes about the game was crushed. The game promised a more serious story and all we got is "friendship=win", and gameplay wise people thought it's gonna be like Generations but Forces not only had bad physics but also have a straight forward level design. So that's why people dislike Forces so much, because they were lied to by Sega.

[@dondada3638]

Sonic forces is NOT better than lost world. Lost world had fun moments more than forces

[@AdamWright-t7w]

Generations is better than both games(imo)

[@Sonicjan]

2:00 They took an EXTRA long time to finish the game and so a lot of people thought, they'd finally use that time to actually make a good game without any big shortcomings. Turns out, it was still a rushed dumpsterfire and that even the story was set on fire as well...

[@LolipooChimichanga]

22:35 You could say that about Sonic Frontiers A hodgepodge of ideas from other open world games like combat, puzzles, towers, with a majority of reused sonic stages slapped on with a lobotomized player controller that feels so off to play in. How is this a step in the right direction when it's basically in a different font?

[@CanaldoZenny]

24:54 This game took so much time to make for a myriad of factors, some outside of Sonic Team's control. After shipping Lost World, Sonic Team began development of the next iteration of the Hedgehog Engine, to be used in next generation hardware. The development of HE2 took around 4 years to complete, leaving a little over a year for ST to make Forces. They had the planning all complete, but I assume they were expecting Sega to give them time to make the game after wrapping up HE2, which didn't happen because Sega wanted to keep the momentum of Mania's release and it the Switch's first year in the market. It is important to know ST doesn't make only Sonic games, they also develop technology to be used in other Sega games. It is known that Puyo Puyo and Sakura Wars also use HE, and it is believed ST aided in the development of some Yazuka/Like a Dragon games. Sonic Team is more of a label, internally they had different names, like Sega AM8 and Sega GE1. Many people come and go from Sonic Team since the beginning. Another thing that happened that impacted in the development of Forces was the disaster that was Sonic Boom. It suck you're not making a video about Boom because I believe the damage done by Boom RoL was far greater than '06. Why? Because at very least, '06 sold well and made a profit, which allowed Sonic to keep going and eventually make good games. Boom RoL sold so poorly and was so poorly receive it instantly damaged the entire brand of Sonic Boom, which affected the TV show and merchandise sales. Boom was Sega of America's idea, because they wanted their own spin on Sonic. The japanese branch didn't anything to do with it, but they invested a lot of money into it thinking the merchandise would give a good return. Lol no. Sega lost so much money with Boom they made many aggressive downsizing on Sonic Team and investments in the Sonic IP at this game. Many talented devs left to work at Nintendo, and the budget of Sonic was reduced, which is why Forces was a 40 USD game at launch. The Sonic IP was simply not valuable to Sega in the 2010's, especially after Boom. And Mania, despite being an amazing game and very well receive, didn't meet sale's expectations - taking 8 months to reach 1 million sales. Not great for a 20 dollar game that was "the best Sonic game ever". There even was internal talks about replacing Sonic for Persona's Joker as Sega's mascot. Everything only changed because of the positive reception of the first Hollywood movie, and later Frontiers. Forces was a victim of Boom's failure and Sega's upper management.

[@NovaRizezz]

It's a good day when Pariah drops

[@Rainyar4779]

Where did Pariah drop? Is he okay?

[@TheMasonGamer]

I think we've far crossed the need for the title "Sonic was always good" at this point

[@jawoseye2902]

the title is in past tense tho

[@AnAverageGoblin]

to repeat an old comment I made (that got aggressive sonic fanboy attention lol) "Was sonic always good?" is a lot clearer of a title that would probably look less like bait on videos about the disliked games in the series.

[@TheMasonGamer]

@@jawoseye2902 “Always” means Sonic has never been bad, while in the same videos with that title many bad games are covered that Pariah himself says he doesn’t like

[@DeclanEDowns]

I have a bit of personal attachment for Forces as it was my second 3D Sonic game. I originally grew up with Sonic 2 through the SEGA Mega Drive collection on PSP, and when I got a Xbox 360, Generations was the first 3D Sonic I played, ever. However I then kinda forgot about Sonic up until 2016 when Mania and Forces was announced, I thought they look really cool, however I was more interested in Mania as I was a lot more familiar with Classic over Modern. It wouldn't be until Boxing Day 2017 that I remembered Forces. I went to Tesco to buy L.A. Noire on Nintendo Switch as that was my main gaming console I cared about, despite having a PS4, however the guy behind the counter said they didn't have it, but I didn't want to leave with nothing, so he went in the back and made a list of the Switch games they had, and the one that caught me was Forces, I honestly forgot about the game and decided to buy it, and even thought I was around 10p short, he let me have anyway. I got home and played it the rest of the day and I genuinely really liked it, even though for many people, I played the superior game before this. I'm a lot kinder to Forces due to reading up on the development history, that is a genuine reason why this game just missed the mark for people, but I am glad I ended up enjoying my time with the game, and even 100% the game on Steam years later. It's better as a classic arcade game, a pick-up and play type title. It's nothing truly amazing, but It did make me happy and, at the end of the day, that's what matters most sometimes.

[@RealCaptainPingu]

The game is VERY lazily put together, there is no challenge in the modern stages compared to something like Unleashed's daytime stages for example. In Sonic Forces, you just hold X to win and that's it. All of the challenge from Unleashed is gone, and the characterization is even worse than anything in the previous games.

[@ChaosAngelZero]

This game shot at the previous president _and missed._ Literally *everyone* hates it.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

I dont hate it , actually 😂 In fact, I had a lot of fun playing it(mostly from time attacking and speedrunning) BUT, it's still quite flawed(imo)

[@TehJellyLord]

I’ll emphatically disagree that Classic Sonic’s physics here is better than Sonic 4’s. What kills it for me is the jump controls mostly. The jump being as incredibly stiff as it is (Sonic cannot even accelerate midair with it, so if you lose speed or jump at a slower speed, you’re just stuck in that speed for the whole jump arch) and the fact that you lose any and all horizontal speed the moment you jump into an enemy, it just feels so wrong to me. Now I ain’t gonna pretend that Sonic 4 has amazing physics or anything, but at least you can still do stuff like loop jumps, jumping through and enemy and retaining all of your speed, and the air dash is broken and fun to use imo. And you can accelerate midair even if you start your jump at a slower speed. I will agree that the level design here in Forces for Classic is definitely better than Sonic 4’s stages, but I just disagree on the physics. Otherwise I fully agree with you here. I did have quite the visceral reaction to this game when it released, purely because I did totally fall for the marketing and in general I was a young and stupid kid back then, but I play Forces these days and I just feel nothing. It’s so easy it’s mindless, the physics just pail in comparison to Generations, the level design is so short and weak that even the best stages suffer from it, etc. it’s just a nothing game to me in just about every way, so while I don’t necessarily hate it I do find it to be one of the most boring Sonic games easily.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

Respectfully disagree. Forces is a very decent game(same for Sonic 4 Ep. 1) and Ep. 2 is just decent, i think. I had more fun playing Forces, however. Even more weird, is that i had the most amount of hours(about 355) for Forces, even tho its not my fav sonic game. That is Gens. Anyways, i had loads of fun playing all 4 of them

[@gameman5804]

Haven’t played 4 Episode 1 in a LONG time… but Classic Sonic in Forces is still better than Cyberspace Controls In 2D. I managed to complete that fucking marathon the day before the SPINDASH UPDATE! God dammit my thumb still hurts thinking about it.

[@TehJellyLord]

@@gameman5804honestly, Cyberspace’s basic controls might be some of the worst controls in Sonic, both 2D and 3D imo lol. The open zone controls tho are pretty nice, very flawed but nice.

[@gameman5804]

@@TehJellyLord Cyberspace Controls are fucking awful in general, but you feel it more in 2D. At least Classic Sonic had the spindash out the gate and the drop dash actually functions.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

​@@TehJellyLordwould play any of those games over Unleashed anyway(for me)

[@CanaldoZenny]

The moment Pariah's fans have been waiting for.

[@futureflea3917]

The real fans are waiting for him to be done with Sonic

[@MrRobosquad]

Sonic Forces is genuinely a really fun game--if you do all the missions/S Ranks/collectables. Those feel like the real game, with the standard A-to-B runthrough being easy mode, and when you're going for them the short levels actually really come together. Absolutely how I would recommend anyone play the game, and a pretty good time. It actually handles its extra challenges better than several other Sonic games. The tight time trials and ways you have to consider use of boost or movement with Classic Sonic is...challenging and fun!

[@bandicootsauce4569]

Mechanically and functionally, this game is mediocre at worst, but in terms of story and character portrayals... Well, it was another '06 situation, in which it was all just so easy to pick apart and poke fun at, and ever since '06, poking fun at the Sonic series and its fanbase in a malicious manner has been the 'in' thing to do, and Forces provided the social media hive mind with more than enough of an excuse in that regard. The reason why Sonic fans are so resentful of Forces is because it dragged the series' reputation through the mud once again at a time when the series was right on the cusp, right on the very PRECIPICE of redeeming itself thanks in no small part to Sonic Mania. The fans were this close, THIS CLOSE to being able to admit to being Sonic fans in polite company without fear of ridicule for the first time in over a decade... and then Forces happened.

[@atticussprague7592]

I think it was also that there were 5 years where forces was the only sonic game.

[@sometf2player752]

16:37 apparently during development a lot of the levels were gonna be longer but they pulled a colors and ended up splitting them into multiple smaller levels

[@Hyp3rSonic]

Classic move💀

[@persona4cat]

14:22 have you heard about this game called sonic battle

[@AdamWright-t7w]

Yes

[@AdamWright-t7w]

Never played it tho

[@croc6105]

The reason this game is so hated, even more than stuff like Sonic 06 is because it's fundamentally a "nothing" game. Forces isn't just "mediocre", not being broken and working like it's supposed to doesn't mean shit to me if the game plays like utter garbage, as garbage as a game like 06 is that game at the very least tried to do something with it's level design y'know, failing at it but hey, it's something at least. Forces is a numbed down version of a formula that is already numbed down from the beginning, the boost ever since the Rush games is a flanderized version of what SA2/Advance 2/Advance 3 were going for completely missing the mark that those games were speed focused but were all about efficient movement and stylish play and not having the option to reach highspeeds by just the press of a button, which is just a glorified run button. But at least I can give merit to Unleashed, Colors or Gens for doing something with this formula even if it's fundamentally flawed, and Forces is really a bunch of nothing, I don't think mindlessly boosting and getting away with it is something I could do in any of the previous games but Forces certainly does, and having to jump occassionally, perform binaries occassionally or go through the most shallow platforming means anything to me, the level design in this game is truly as disjointed as fans make it out to be, and that's not all of it but every other aspect about the game justifies the reaction people had specially when you had to wait 4 years for such a lackluster product after the disaster that was Boom that nearly killed the series and the disaster that was Lost World which makes a game like 06 look appealing in comparison. Fast forward to 2024, with the release of Frontiers and now the upcoming Shadow Generations it's not like anything has changed because we're still getting more of this shallow, no style no substance level design, and it's amazing they somehow managed to repeat the same mistake in an open world videogame. I don't think the issue with Forces is being corridor-like, the notion that corridor-like or lack of branching paths is such an issue to Sonic fans just makes me think they don't play anything outside of these games and assuming they even play their own games is a stretch, the issue is the lack of substance, there's no replay value to a game that doesn't ask for much input or thinking from the player, there's not a single moment in the game were a pasivity trap tricked me (if those even exist in this game) or a moment where I had to think about how to beat a platforming challenge more efficiently or be aware of mindlessly holding forward because the game might punish me for doing that, but it doesn't. I don't think they should've made the most ambitious or grand Sonic game because Forces is already somewhat ambitious, but people expected a decent game at the bare minimum and we got something much worse than that. With all that said, I think every single bit of backlash this game received is 100% justified, even if fans may have overreacted a bit I really don't blame them at all.

[@nobodycares607]

Trying to do something means nothing if it isn't done well lmao stop meat riding 06 that game is dog shit.

[@ArtseyHayton06]

The story just loses me

[@croc6105]

@@nobodycares607 I don't even like 06 to begin with, I just don't find it as shit as games like Forces, Lost World or Frontiers, which play worse and also have no idea what they want to do.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

​@@croc6105I respectfully disagree. Imo, I always found games like 06 and Rise of Lyric to be worse than Forces. However, I respect your opinion, even if I don't agree

[@TevyaSmolka]

I thought this game was bad and so disappointing in my opinion.

[@ultrascarlet5275]

This game is so hated because it is catastrophically worse than Gens in every single aspect that it's depressing. People really believed that Forces would continue the streak of good games that was pulling Sonic out of its dark age, only to fail miserably.

[@cartoonamc9328]

Yeah people hate on sonic forces and its sad

[@ultrascarlet5275]

@@cartoonamc9328 Forces deserves the hate

[@cartoonamc9328]

@@ultrascarlet5275 why I think it’s good expect the story and classic sonic

[@Hyp3rSonic]

​@@ultrascarlet5275I disagree...somewhat

[@AdamWright-t7w]

@@ultrascarlet5275 disagree, somewhat

[@lukeluke1894]

this game was the straw the broke the hedgehog’s back. I think the blandness and lack of vision was what actually insulted fans the most.

[@peanutbutterrocket]

Pariah always knows how to make the most funny intros lmao

[@michaelkindt3288]

@10:49-.-I disagree. The double jump is so weak it might as well not even exist, and I normally like double jumps. I frankly have a hard time telling the bird even does a second jump.

[@jagerzaku9160]

Okay this game isn’t as bad as boom. But it’s unoriginal and mediocre. Only good thing it brought was like 6 music tracks.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

Agree about it being mediocre

[@alexandrpeterberg390]

23:49 Pariah: It's like a little kid trying to copy their older sibling just doing everything they do and thinking that makes them as cool as their big sibling is, but every attempt it makes at trying to emulate better games fails spectacularly and the game overall ends up falling on its face. Me: Basically the Wii Team of Sonic Team/Morio Kishimoto in a nutshell.

[@TDYL2009]

As someone who has recently beat the story book games everyone shits on them even when they are incredibly fun games with some of the best sonic writing in the series

[@raidenmei9064]

For me, I hate Forces so much because being boring is the worst thing a game can be. That's why Lost World and Forces are my least favorite 3D games. They have absolutely no staying power. I've gone back to 06 and Secret Rings, I regularly play Black Knight. I play my favorite levels in Shadow all the time. Every other 3D Sonic game I've gone back to time and time again. Forces is the only 3D game I've had absolutely no urge to go back to since its release. It was supposed to be the follow up to Generations gameplay wise, it was supposed to be a huge story with high stakes. Instead, we got nothing. Even the games I'm not to hot on gameplay wise give me something else to latch on to, like the level themes or the story. Forces fails in both of those regards too. That's at least my reason for hating Forces so much. I have a feeling a lot of other people feel the same way.

[@Cai_Behr]

This video starts off feeling pretty reductionistic of people complaints about the game when you summarize it as "its biggest crime is that it's not very good" and that you think it's fine because you didn't have high expectations of the game, but the entire rest of the video goes down almost the entire list of reasons *why* people really, REALLY dislike the game, and it just kind of comes off like you shrug those reasons aside because you personally didn't think it was that big a deal because the games just mediocre. This just makes the video feel really weird, like, you're on the cusp of understanding why people don't like it, you even call the game "pathetic", but you never cross fully into seeing the dissatisfaction with the game.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

Huh?

[@Cai_Behr]

@Hyp3rSonic The video isn't very good because the argument is that Sonic Forces is "good" or "fine" but then lists every reason why people wouldn't like it.

[@tylerparkes-jk7uv]

​@Cai_Behr The video is not about Sonic Forces is a good video game. He uses the "Sonic was always good" in Sonic 4.

[@chronoblue418]

​​@@Cai_Behr It's weird to me. Like I don't think people having expectations or wishing a game was more than it is are invalid or somehow flawed. Wanting something to be something else is still interacting with what something is in reality. I don't understand why people wanting Generations standard that they didn't receive or being disappointed in Forces standard "for what it is" is somehow considered weird and irrational. And it feels like you could say his opinion boils down to "I thought it was fun for what it is, no one else's opinion matters" which is fine for him personally but doesn't negate other people's negative opinions on it. His statement also presumes people agree with his perception of what are and aren't good sonic games and that Sonic Forces situation is the same as other (flawed) sonic games.

[@Kelps.mp4]

In my opinion, I don't think he shrug those reasons aside due to personal belief or ignorance, I think he did that because he analyzes Sonic games in a vacuum of space rather than considering the circumstances of the time the game got released, so it makes sense that he'd not consider all the previous games being massive disappointments and Forces being the breaking point of the Sonic community as a whole. Or maybe not, I don't really know Pariah in a personal level, so there's still a chance that he was being just ignorant.

[@ComboFood]

This game is probably my second favourite of the boost formula games behind Shadow Generations Good to see others that don’t hate it, Modern Sonic’s air dash is so satisfying to use and the visuals and locations all look amazing and it feels apocalyptic especially with how destroyed iconic places like Green Hills are, and the music even by Sonic standards is so good

[@AdamWright-t7w]

I love Forces!

[@Hyp3rSonic]

This is also my 2nd favorite boost game! (Of the ones I played!)

[@felixdaniels37]

For a lot of people, Forces is what shattered the illusion that Sonic Team was "back" in a sense. Ever since Unleashed, Colors, and Generations, Sonic Team garnered enough goodwill among the fanbase to the point where they could confidently say that they finally got their act together. After a streak of bad games that dragged Sonic Team's reputation through the mud, it seemed like they finally worked out a solid gameplay formula they could stick with and bring Sonic back to relevancy. Lost World meanwhile was seen as an experimental title that, while heavily flawed and not great, still had reasonable production value. That game still looks great graphically. Sonic Boom was a sponoff and was treated as such. Then Forces came along and it's just totally indefensible in every way. Sonic Team wasted FIVE YEARS on a game that's somehow more rushed than any of their post-06 games. Mania coming out of a few months earlier didn't help matters either, if anything the gulf of quality between them only highlighted just how bad Forces was. It's a total embarrassment that sent Sonic Team back to square one, and disillusioned a lot of people that had hope for them to be betrer than that.

[@jurassicarkjordanisgreat1778]

Pretty sure they also spent most of the game’s development time just concept arting instead of developing

[@robertlupa8273]

_"This is an illusion, open up your eyes and/The pain persists"_ - Infinite's theme He was trying to warn us.

[@felixdaniels37]

@@jurassicarkjordanisgreat1778 Yeah, Frontiers also suffered a similar issue. Sonic Team in general has gotten REALLY bad at time management as of late.

[@shyguyissoawesomeguys]

​@@felixdaniels37i didn't actually know frontiers struggled with time management. but even still frontiers ended up pretty well off knowing that, especially the writing, since it could've been just as bad as forces was

[@1UnderKable]

Forces is just bad in everything it sets out to do. They make the story out to be a fight for the freedom of the whole world, but all the fighting is happening somewhere else. Sonic is taken out and "tortured for months" but we get him back in 2 missions and he's also completely fine. Infinite is supposed to be wielding a gem of incredible power and all it does is make everyone as schizophrenic as he is, plus he just fuckin' disappears near the end. Classic Sonic had no reason to come back. They muddied the origins of the Phantom Ruby and we'll probably never get any real explanation. The physics suck ass, the wisps showing up again was worthless, the levels are all too short, the Avatar is just a worse Sonic in most areas, the classic level music sucks ass, the cutscenes lack sound design, Infinite is the most one dimensional character I've ever seen and everything lacks consequences.

[@ClassicRockerSr101]

Sonic Forces is, imo, the least satisfying Sonic game. After all that time, it wasn't a home run... a double, or even a bunt. It was a swing and miss. It never gets going. Any time you feel it has potential, the level ends. 06 was poorly made, with a ton of vision, scope, drive. Lost World was well made, but perhaps the wrong direction. This is just... nothing. No vision, nothing to dig into... it's a like getting a new Bike but not being able to bring it outdoors.

[@ClassicRockerSr101]

Also: saying the physics in this are "better than the 8 bit games" is the absolute lowest bar hahaha Those were running on 6 AA batteries in '91. They felt pretty good in context. Forces looks WORSE in its context w Mania, Gens...

[@diariodeumdesenvolvedor]

I recently had the chance to play Sonic Forces all the way to the end, and to my own surprise - well, not actually, I was pretty sure this would happen, I have peculiar tastes - I enjoyed it! Sure, it's flawed, it's level design sucks, physics are weird, graphics aren't that impressive, story is poorly written, but I enjoyed it. I think my biggest complaints about Forces are the length of the stages, the stupid plot and the Classic Sonic stages (these really drove me mad). What can I say? It's not that hard to please me.

[@JoseGregorioValeroVillarroel]

Gotta say it, this was a very good review. You explained to the detail each of the game's problems without being either biased or a blind hater. Plus, thank you for saying this is better than '06! I always get sick of people saying the opposite of it when is just untrue. Plus, let's not fool ourselves into thinking Sonic '06 had potential. It clearly didn't. Because even if that game wasn't rushed, you would still have: - Awful story - Unfinished enviroments - Bleak hub-worlds - Unnecessary/Shoehorned in characters(That are terrible) - Butchered gameplay - Bad controls - Terrible side missions - Shadow's crappy vehicles - The ball puzzles in Silver's Dusty Desert In short, it's just stupid that there are people that think a nearly unplayable and fundamentally flawed bad game that represents ALL the bad things with 3D Sonic and that nearly killed the franchise is better than a inoffensive and mediocre game. That's just delusional and makes me hate this fandom even more than I do before.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

Based

[@ASolidSnack]

Obviously much of the hatred has just become memetic but I think what was so bad about this for fans is that Generations had bought the franchise some good will, then Forces had all the exact same mistakes the series had been making for decades and made fans feel like they were a laughing stock again.

[@dreamareakoso3791]

as someone who was also there at the time, it was definitely the pre-release marketing that killed Sonic Forces, it was hyped up to an insane degree, almost everyone was hyped as hell, and the fact the game was so mediocre after the insanely high expectations? it crippled the game into the dirt, with insanely high highs, come insanely low lows, and those insanely high expectations turned into intense hatred

[@adventuresteamstudios242]

Can't wait for the "Story of Sonic Forces", because i am going to tear this game's story apart, with no mercy.

[@luke6784]

Sonic Forces is boring. And that's one of the worst things for a piece of entertainment to be.

[@heroicgangster9981]

I do hate on Forces even tho it’s an alright game. I just think it was very insulting how the game promised big stuff but the game felt like it was openly burdened by the current state of the sonic franchise at the time. Being sauceless honestly is a bigger sin to people than flawed or even buggy gameplay. Just look at how many people trash on Insomniac for their lack of writing for Venom than the amount of people talking about the product of the game. Sonic Rivals, the storybook games, 3D Blast, and even the jank polish of Sonic Superstars are more appealing and give more than Sonic Forces because the game gives the sauce people want from a Sonic game. Why play Forces if you can play any other game, heck other Sonic games? Even the 8-bit games for the nostalgic warranty.

[@ChiefMedicPururu]

This game is still awful, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the botched translation job. Sonic was never tortured, Tails never "lost it" and Infinite didn't have three backstories.

[@AizakkuAnalysis]

There's no way he's going to say something positive about Forces... Is he?

[@luccaassis2148]

Kinda

[@pwispa9532]

Sorta, I mean he was more positive here compared to Lost World LOL

[@castform7]

It's more so ambivalence. Less "Sonic Forces has some good things" and more "Sonic Forces isn't great but it's not bottom of the barrel Sonic content".

[@luccaassis2148]

@@castform7 Exactly

[@ThibautMahringer]

I mean, graphics are nice and music is mostly good so there’s good points. Too bad everything in the gameplay and story sucks.

[@ChaosAngelZero]

Sonic had a rough transition to the eighth generation of consoles.

[@snakey888]

And to the 7th, and 6th, and 5th. Completely aced the 4th one though.

[@ahmedhasan4966]

Yes, it has (looking at you rise of lyrics)

[@Hyp3rSonic]

​@@snakey888what are those ones again?

[@snakey888]

@@Hyp3rSonic 7th is xbox 360, ps3, wii. 6th is Dreamcast, gc, ps2, xb. 5th is Saturn. 4th Mega drive.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

​@@snakey888I sometimes forget about that. I mean, the different generations of consoles. Anyways, it was definitely bad(like, extremely bad) on the 7th and 5th

[@Exmotable]

Sonic Forces may not be a buggy game, but for a lot of people the worst thing a game can be is fucking boring. And Sonic Forces is, to a lot of people, really fucking boring. Even compared to "bad" Sonic games.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

Doesn't change my opinion on Forces tho. I still think 06 is worse than Forces(IMO)

[@Kelps.mp4]

I do agree that, in an objective scale, a game being boring would be worse than a game being frustrating, but personally, a game being frustrating is the worst.

[@grawman67]

For me, the reason that I rank Forces as the lowest mainline game in the reason is the series is that it's not just rushed but everything feels like it functions but has little little ambition/competence in anything except the idea for the story. The Sonic levels are mostly straight lines that can be finished quickly, the story has a good idea but is the epitome of tell and don't show, the characters act so out of character that they're just there to proceed the plot, and the gameplay is mostly just holding boost without much testing your reflexes. It all feels like they were less than halfway through development or their best was pitiful. I didn't feel any spark from it like I did from even the worst mainline Sonic titles.

[@xGhostNappa]

I’m so glad I’m not the only one who thought classic sonic was the better part of forces

[@gamefreakDX]

I feel like you're looking at Sonic Forces' over-hate incorrectly. In retrospect, it kinda sounds silly since it is not the worst Sonic game made, however, considering when it came out, I think the hate is completely justified. Lost World - which is worse depending on who you ask - when was this released? It was released during a period where the Sonic series had garnered good will due to a string of good games, not limited to just Generations. A few pits, but nothing horrendous. So people viewed Lost World as like a bad game, but it's just one game, we can trust Sega to bounce back. Then what came after? Around 4 years of garbage Sonic games in the form of the Boom series, and this was THE series at the time. People basically ignored the Boom brand and were waiting for the next mainline Sonic game. We got that and that was Sonic Forces, which went back to what they knew... sort of. They went back to Boost, but with severely hindered everything. Classic Sonic is back and though I actually agree with you for the most part on his portions of the game, the game still feels like crap to play. Same with the Avatar, but at least there was something interesting with their play style. Clearly, though, not even the custom OC could save the game because it's just that dull of a game. Doubly problematic considering it's a gameplay system that they should know how to navigate properly - at least the Boost formula. And this is just on the gameplay. I have to admit, your skills in the game are pretty good, especially in the levels with no walls - it's a good thing you're a time attacker because then you can judge the game on the basis of how fun it is the do skips and not just on its core level design. But even you agree that numerous portions are far too straight or boring. And I'm not sure if mods fixed this for you, but I was surprised you never mentioned the weird acceleration in this game, where you jog for about a second or two, then you immediately snap to full speed, or how going from running to stopping fully takes around a second, and it feels so disgusting to play. But the thing that got me to realise something is horribly wrong with the series, is the story. It was legitimately interesting - honestly, most of the marketing made the game look rather decent, at least - but then it comes out and it was so far below my expectations. But I know you'll talk about it more in depth later. I believe Sonic Forces is the Sonic 06 of the modern era - it's the straw that broke the camel's back. I think it's far more damaging to the series compared to Sonic 06 considering that Sega wasted tons of money on the Boom series, and they let the series go dormant for around 5-6 years. If it wasn't for the comics or music they keep pumping out (via videos or concerts, etc.) then I would've just assumed the series let itself die. I think your review of Forces as a game is completely fair, but I think your view on why this game is so despised is quite misguided.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

Are you trying to downplay the damage that 06 dod? Extremely yikes imo 💀

[@gamefreakDX]

@@Hyp3rSonic True, 06's damage is still felt to this day. And maybe the blame should be put on the Boom series instead because Forces is just a low-budget mediocre game. But at least 06 - compared to Boom - did well in its sales and all that. So we got Unleashed not long after, to sort of correct the mistakes of 06. Also, and this part is purely in retrospect, I think 06 is just more interesting in general.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

​@@gamefreakDXwell, what other bad games had sold well? That's an interesting question. Anyways, why did many people get 06

[@gamefreakDX]

​@@Hyp3rSonic Good question. I don't know why. I'm going to assume Shadow didn't down the series enough, that game also sold extremely well. 06 got the 'Platinum Hits' treatment, so that means it sold well. I would also assume 06 was marketed rather well - like it looked legitimately good (and to be fair, if you look at some demo footage when they had the lost newer build, it does look fun). Both of the above sold around 2 to 2.5 million copies. In comparison, Boom RoL and SC combined sold around 600k units. And F&I sold 250k units. That's not to mention the animated series that Sega also had to have pumped money into. Also should be noted that the internet was a different beast back then. Maybe if it was as frequently used as it is today, then Shadow and 06 may have sold less. But you never know.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

​@@gamefreakDXinteresting. Well, do you know about other bad games that sold well?

[@oldsoulgarage2982]

I guess a good analogy for sonic forces would be its the "skyward sword" of the sonic series. Honestly i couldnt agree more the game is mediocre at best. I think the biggest offense the game does is how much of waste episode shadow was. 4 stages of hallway-esque level design just to see him shit on infinite and cause him to freakout like a child and reinvent himself as eggmans new right hand man. Shadows story should have been much more involved in this game. It should have been like his new campaign in sonic x shadow gens. A separate story that ties into the main one seamlessly. The other big issue is there is no world building in this game its all done off screen. You dont see what your actions do for the world around you as you progress. The stages are all reused and its left to the player to assume everything is changing for the better. Having better world building and sonic friends more involved rather than doing everything off screen or talked about in a speech bubble would help create the sense of accomplishment this game needs. My last problem with this game is the chaos emeralds being absent. The premise that eggman took over the world and everything has gone to shit under his iron fist rule is so powerful. Yet the fact that teamwork alone and the newbie OC character you make are more than enough to squash such hyped up and deadly foes like infinite and eggmans big mech with the phantom ruby at the end of the game make it feel so.... uneventful and undeserved. Like oh we can save the world now that we just busted sonic out of jail all we have to do is take down eggmans bases one by one. By having the chaos emeralds in this story it would make the story so much more seriously taken because it would show that sonic and friends arent strong enough on their own to do defeat the big evil. Think of it like the avengers. Captain america and everyone else lost to thanos and it was only through them coming together with time travel to the get the infinity stones were they able to reverse the damage that was done from their own mortal shortcomings. Anyways thats just my two cents. Aside from mid level design and a lackluster story the only good thing the game has are some of the level set pieces and its music. I hate to say it but i feel shadow the hedgehog has more direction than this game with all of its "hodge-podgeness" as you put it.

[@JakeThehedgehog-m1x]

Im genuinely shocked he actually like Claasic sonoc's gameplay..

[@Mrnoobestreturns]

For me not really. I rather have level design. Than no level design, because forces 3D level design has no level design, where it Makes me wonder, how did sega accepted that, or thought it was passable to release it in that state.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

I also loved classic sonic

[@AlexanTheMan]

Ah yes the infamous "Just play Mania" game. I'd actually opine the timeline between Lost World and this game was much more awkward and disconcerting.

[@Mr.Maguro]

Who could forget the mediocre, terrible, horrible, ugly, poorly written, disingenuously marketed game from 2017. Which ignored fan-favourite characters and poorly represented those that it used, had lame DLC, followed up after a fan-favourite 2011 installment after a 6 year time gap, only to end up killing the franchise... Marvel Vs. Capcom Infinite.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

Huh?

[@deanmoriarty6015]

atleast the "bad" games mentioned have some charm and redeeming qualities to them. whether it be an interesting story, interesting character interactions, unique locations, or just really good music. I feel like Forces doesn't have any of that, and the cherry on top is the game just is not fun to play.

[@KC.086]

for me, the charm of Sonic Forces is in the character creator, the soundtrack isn't bad either

[@deanmoriarty6015]

@@KC.086I personally can not stand the synth. it’s extremely grating on the ears and it causes all the songs to blend together. I think Luminous Forest is the only standout, in my opinion atleast

[@sebastianmartinez5963]

​​​@@deanmoriarty6015 On the contrary, the synths give their own identity to the music of Sonic Forces and that is more than enough to have good music in a Sonic game. That you don't like the use of synths in music, it's already something of your preference and I respect that.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

@@sebastianmartinez5963 agree

[@acgon]

No fucking way this shit is better than the 8 bit games

[@AdamWright-t7w]

Hmm...

[@Hyp3rSonic]

Cool

[@theking8347]

The environments are too bland for a world conquered by Eggman. There should be neon Eggman-land esque environments everywhere, with Eggman statues everywhere, his logo, everywhere, screens with his face on them everywhere. Have him make announcements like in Colors. Color's environments and Eggman's PA announcements really made you feel like you were in an amusement park built by Eggman. Feels like fan backlash against Colors and Lost World made them afraid to have as much fun with Forces's premise as they could have. Eggman should have been hamming it up, basking in his victory more.

[@LexStormA]

I think the main culprit of Forces' reception is time Prior to Lost World, Sonic would have major releases almost yearly, either with mainline games or larger spinoff series. Lost World to Forces was a noticeably big gap, one of the biggest in a decade. And it doesn't help that, at the time, one of the main arguments for "how to make Sonic good" was for ST to slowdown, take their time with the next game, and release a quality product. Forces sort of became that proof of concept. The gap between games raised expectations becauses fans thought they were shifting towards that direction. And when it turned out to be the same story, it crashed a lot harder because of that. Of course it was later revealed that they only spent ONE year on the game and the rest on developing the Engine, but it didn't change the fact that Forces really shot down that hope fans had And following that there's an even BIGGER gap between games, in one of the largest Sonic droughts (in terms of games) so far. Whereas in the 2000s era the franchise was releasing constant games with questionable quality, the late 2010s felt like the same quality but with much longer waits between titles. Couple that with Forces showing that "longer wait time =/= better game", the highest level of transparency from Sega and Sonic Team being twitter memes, and it's no surprise that fans started to grow a lot of resentment towards the franchise they once loved and stuck out for. Forces is far from the worst Sonic game, but it is the stick that broke the camel's back

[@Angie2343]

The character creation feature is AWESOME!

[@Hyp3rSonic]

Agree

[@MonkeyDanceAlongs]

Before i didn't get sonic. I would get frustrated. Sonic Forces playing itself and me having no expectations showed me what could be fun about Sonic. Forces was "baby's first sonic" for me so i think of it fondly for that. Thanks for breaking down nuance and not just passionately defending one side.

[@Nyaalexi]

True story, I actually attempted to design a Sonic OC once. And I didn't get get very far with it. It kinda just turned out to be a joke, but also kinda turned into an official thing. It all started when I was a dumb kid, trying to design comics, it didn't even look like a Sonic character. Then later on, I tried drawing comics again, and actually made it fit in with the Sonic art style. Then I forgot about it for years, and then I dug up the old design, made one modern digital drawing of the character, gave him a name, and that's about all I did with him. lol. And around the time this game came out, I attempted to use the character creator to make him. And I kinda succeeded? Maybe. I don't hate this game, but I don't love it, either.

[@ZachaRicO]

I think the big problem people have with this game is that the trailers promised something epic...and the game completely failed to live up to those promises. Even Shadow's inclusion as a playable character didn't save the game, although it was one of the better aspects.

[@SouliteAzure]

Context always matters. It isn’t just the fact that it was another bad Sonic game, the marketing, the advertising and all of the shit that went into pre-launch led us to believe we were getting something that we ultimately didn’t. Also happened before right? Context again. Shadow and 06 were only a year apart. Lost World and Forces are 4 years apart. We waited 4 years for what we got and that’s part of the issue with me and (I think) a lot of people in the community. The game tries to do so much and not a damn thing all at once and it’s very bad at both. At least, that’s how I view it.

[@bullymaguire-cu7eb]

More people understand why this game is 100 times more playable than rise of lyric like me?

[@Hyp3rSonic]

I never played rise of lyric. However, i had fun with Forces, but it still has flaws(like every sonic game in existence tbh)

[@JamesP7]

Well, yeah. Pressing down one button and making a sandwich is a lot more replayable than frustration and brokenness.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

​@@JamesP7is that sarcasm? 🤔

[@JamesP7]

@@Hyp3rSonic No. Its the same reasoning as to why The Good Dinosoar is a worse movie than Brave.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

@@JamesP7 your point is??? Also, I barely watch movies, and I definitely didn't watch those 2

[@mushroomdude123]

I don’t think anyone _actually_ thinks this is the worst Sonic game, but it’s kind of more the straw that broke the camel’s back. There was a 4 year gap between Lost World to Forces and 5 before Frontiers. It was rough knowing we had to wait so long for something so mid. After how long we spent in the Boom era, this just felt bad.

[@jurassicarkjordanisgreat1778]

Yeah. Nobody likes mediocre slop. Sure it’s not bad but mediocre is not better it’s worse because mostly will be fine with that instead of getting good sonic games

[@JamesP7]

@@jurassicarkjordanisgreat1778The same reasoning as to why many movie/game reviewers will rate something mediocre or with missed potential far lower than something just bad.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

​@@jurassicarkjordanisgreat1778eh...

[@BoxoSpoons]

Fans consider it one of the worst Sonic games in spirit because it was pretty much the embodiment of how much was wrong with the behind the scenes situation. It had pretty much no ambition to it, and just tried to be a quick and safe game, but still failed at even trying to play it as safe as possible. It was Sonic Team aiming for the floor and missing.

[@PTp1ranha]

I have a soft spot for this game. I acknowledge the flaws, but honestly I went in with tempered expectations and had a pretty good time (before the last 3 stages frustrated me). Sure I could be playing a better game, but sometimes I like having a quick and mindless romp. I actually had more fun here than I did with Frontiers. Which sounds like heresy, but I own up to the fact that I've got different priorities from most Sonic players. As I said, I do still agree with the criticisms, but... it just didn't bother me so much. Then again, I've always been a more casual, distant Sonic fan.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

I also had more fun playing Forces! (Compared to Frontiers)

[@MattTOB618]

11:39 Fun fact: Sonic CAN actually wall-jump in this game, but none of his levels have any areas for him to do it in, so you can only see him do it by hacking him into a level that _does_ have these areas. This could imply at least one of four things: 1. It's just leftover code from the previous games that never got used/removed. 2. One of Sonic's levels had a wall-jumping area that got scrapped. 3. Sonic was meant to go through one or more of the Avatar's stages at some point in development. 4. The Avatar was a late inclusion, and they had to divvy up Sonic's levels to accommodate them, accidentally taking all the levels with wall-jumps and giving them to the Avatar.

[@MysticClaws100]

Honestly the hate is pretty much completely justified for this game. The level design is atrocious. Worse than any other Sonic game I’ve played. The control is so god damn bad. There’s nothing in the gameplay that would ever want me to come back. The story conceptually is interesting but in execution is crap and characterisation is awful, especially for Tails. Even the music is pretty mediocre which for a Sonic game is a bad sign Edit: Seeing your gameplay I have to say well done. But why would anyone play this game enough to get that good at taking shortcuts in these uninspired stages?

[@Hyp3rSonic]

I skimmed through your comment, and I only agreed with about half of what you said. All I will say is this... I genuinely enjoyed playing Forces. I still think its mediocre tho. (Also, I have played this game enough to where I should be a master at the game. However, that isn't really true. At least, for ALL of the levels.) Maybe I will edit this comment

[@thefizzwizz1662]

"Sonic Generations didn't have authentic classic physics but no body complained back then" Uh Yea they did. A lot actually. To this day people still site the Classic stages as the worst part of Generations. Joking aside, great video. It's nice seeing someone not just bash this game for stupid reasons and actually talk about what it does and does not achieve.

[@AdamWright-t7w]

Based

[@Squorzel]

Thought this was an April fools joke. But seriously, Sonic Forces is meh. I think the main reason Sonic Forces was so poorly received was that the marketing made it seem pretty good and we got this. So I guess overhype was the issue. The music slaps though, I like the synth (mostly) so I guess I’m an outlier or something.

[@JuniBowman]

The reason people hate this game isn’t just “it’s not that good” it’s for every single thing surrounding the game The hope we had before the game came out was crushed the moment it was released The hope for the story to actually be decent for once with the ideas behind it with eggman winning, destroyed The fact it came out right after the first genuinely good sonic game for years only to crush our spirits once again The lowest point in the series in regards to effort and care for the games The simple fact that it had 0 redeeming qualities that were on its own marits The horrible writing we’ve been dealing with for years being at its lowest here I can go on And on And On In a vacuum the game itself is fine, not notable at all, but the fact that it came out in the time it did for the franchise was painful, even games like sonic 06 or shadow the hedgehog, games that everyone agrees were shit, at the very least there was actual care behind the games with ambition, but that failed to properly land, the only good thing about forces is that the game was physically playable and wasn’t a broken buggy mess, but honestly I would have perfered that the game was broken, because at least then, If it was broken you could see it as being something where the dev team just wasn’t given enough time, but with this, this is the finished product, no amount of more time could have made it even serviceable, at least sonic 06, the story while far from perfect had a lot of great elements that mostly just needed tweaks, and if the gameplay was able to be functional it could have been the next big sonic game at the time But forces can’t even manage that, and frankly that is worse then being an unfinished game

[@AdamWright-t7w]

Respectfully disagree. But i respect your opinion

[@Hyp3rSonic]

Forces was always mediocre (imo) But I respect your opinion

[@fathersongaming8503]

um...

[@Rman1228]

I get why you seem baffled about why Sonic fans treat this game worse than 06. I'll try my best to explain the needed context from my perspective at the time so it makes more sense. Forces was announced after a string of terrible Sonic releases, Lost World and Boom which absolutely blew the good will the Sonic series managed to scrounge up after 06 out of the water. The general internet had made most 2000s Sonic games the laughing stock of the video game industry and it was generally considered cringe to be into Sonic games. However, for people like me we still had faith - that somehow, Sonic Team could turn it all around and deliver something we could enjoy. The Forces marketing campaign has to he studied man. That Sonic Boom fest reveal single-handedly set up Forces and the franchise to come for failure: "From the creators of Sonic Generations and Sonic Colors". The remaining Sonic fans such as myself felt like we finally had something to get hype about after all the waiting. Not even the reveal of classic Sonic was enough to deter the excitement felt at the time. And then, the game came out. At first I was in complete denial. I had just gotten my Switch for Christmas, I thought I'd give the game the benefit of the doubt despite everything I had heard. I couldn't even make it past the 4th level without putting the game down, never picking it back up again until i recently bought it on PC this year. It was a complete and utter betrayal of the fandom that still believed in the series and it LEGITIMATELY was the straw that broke the camels back for me. Everything that all the haters were saying about the Sonic series all that time finally became fact when Forces released. I can never forget or pretend like that isn't more profound then the game being simply terrible like 06 was. It's been almost 7 years and we're still healing from the PTSD of that game 😭

[@Blanktester685]

it is, 06 had better level design, no boost gameplay and shadows story playthrough is somewhat enjoyable.

[@Rman1228]

@@Blanktester685 While I agree that 06's level design was definitely better than Forces by a long shot, I don't think the issue is inherently just that Forces was a boost game. Other fast-paced, quick reaction games like Generations and the daytime Unleashed stages are also boost-styled but have way better implementation of the mechanic. What makes Forces boost gameplay so bland and boring is that the **only** thing you're doing in the stages is boosting. Literally no other thought required. It's the textbook definition of what critics called "boost to win" to describe better boost games, which is mainly why it's taken me so long for my hatred of Forces to mellow out. Parroting my earlier statement - but Forces is an amalgamation of the most watered-down basic ahh elements Sonic Team thought everyone loved about all Sonic games, which in turn made it the dullest jack-of-all-trades, but still master of none.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

@@Rman1228 I think Forces is mediocre, imo. It definitely didn't do as much damage to the franchise compared to games like 06 and Rise and Lyric However, I enjoyed playing 06 and Forces. I still think that 06 is bad, and that Forces is mediocre.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

@@Blanktester685 06 is still worse than Forces(imo)

[@Gyomax9744]

I expected the video to be longer, but it will be good anyways Keep up with such great work!!

[@Ibalistic_hedge]

Tbf, if you look into the files of forces, they show that classic sonic wasn’t planned for forces and that he was a last minute decision.

[@ZinsGameplay15001]

actually???

[@Mrnoobestreturns]

@@ZinsGameplay15001yes Classic sonic is straight up useless narratively, in forces. The music for classic sonic is Sonic forces music at its worse. And it screams very rushed. The only reason why They added classic sonic, is I’m convinced the devs Found out the 3D sections for forces, has 0 level design. Or almost don’t exist. While the 2D sections, were the best part of forces. And have the best level design.

[@caninelotus]

I think one of the biggest problems with Sonic Forces is that it came out after Sonic Mania, apart from the disappointment of the fans