HS245 Vevor welding trolley review

I needed a welding bench for my shop and Vevor gave me one to review. I like it and it will serve as both a welding table and a work bench. #Vevor
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[@andrewdolinskiatcarpathian]

Good morning Paul. A box of Meccano for grown ups! A very entertaining and informative review. Thank you. 👏👏👍😀

[@andrewmicas4327]

Exactly what went through my mind (Meccano), people of my age enjoy building things like that. I enjoyed building kitchen units , to be fair I am a retired engineering draftsman.

[@HaxbyShed]

Assembling flatpack furniture frustrates the hell out of me. I used to leave them to the wife to put together. She has more patience. Cheers

[@HaxbyShed]

Cheers Andrew 👍

[@RobertBrown-lf8yq]

Paul, Good buy for the intended uses I’d say. Whilst I was ‘working’ ( pre retirement that is), I acquired a humungous welding jig table at a trade show here in Sydney ( probably in the ‘90s 🤔 I think). 2m x1m, 25mm top, Flat across whole to within a coupla ‘thou, 18mm jig-bored holes at 100spacing. 600 kgs., on castors. Great bit of kit…. but WAYYYY too big for my ( retirement) workshop. So….. I’m now looking for a table about the same size as yours. Horses for courses mate… that’s the trick 😎 Regards Robert

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Robert that heavy table sounds like the business. 600Kg is heavier than my Mill. The last two times we moved we down-sized the house but we (for that read 'I') upsized the workshop🤣. That's how it should be.

[@howardosborne8647]

With a nice piece of walnut on top that will be the most substantial 'Hostess Tea Trolly' I've ever seen 🤣

[@HaxbyShed]

Yes indeed Howard, I'm sure I could add a heated cabinet below. 🤣

[@larryschweitzer4904]

Another good video. I have been eyeing that same table. I do very little welding and don't have a metal surface to do it on. So I end up on the floor. Not good for an old man. I was afraid that the top would be too flimsy, but it appears to be OK for what I would be doing. I really liked Japan and the people. In 1965 I took the high speed rail from Tokyo to Nara & Kyoto. Great way to travel. I tried to learn to speak a little Japanese but was incapable. In 1972 I was living in London and got a long with their version of English a little better than while in Japan.😉 The further I got away from London the easier it was, for me, to understand the language. Nebraska, USA

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Larry, I'm using the welding trolly as a portable work table all the time now. It's just so convenient. I have welded on it once so far. If you travelled on the bullet train in 1965 then you were on there just 1 year after the line opened in 1964, for the Tokyo Olympics. If you are still interest in the bullet train then have a look at this video from our visit to Japan in May 2023 kzbin.info/www/bejne/rmStc3-Bd9R3odE

[@bostedtap8399]

Good review Paul.

[@HaxbyShed]

Thanks John 👍

[@coplandjason]

Good review Paul and that’s a useful item. Great idea to put a wooden top on it, makes it much more useful

[@HaxbyShed]

Cheers Jason 👍

[@user-fz9yy3ki7j]

My 41kg of Welding Table just arrived. First job - watch your video again 😊

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Geoff, 6 have sold off my link so far thank you very much. Somebody suggested nylock nuts on the caster dome heads - a good idea I thought. Although I'm not saying it will be a problem necessarily without them. Cheers

[@user-fz9yy3ki7j]

@@HaxbyShed For many years we have held a considerable stock of nylocs as a favourite reusable nut, but also use spring washers. As long they are not in a hot area, they are a great all-in one solution. For some reason we tend to use springs on structures, not sure why - availability, habit, higher static loads, cheaper? We will use them on the casters, maybe better for dynamic loads.

[@user-fz9yy3ki7j]

For the record, l used nylocs on all but the underside of the welding platter. The dome screws were too short to fit the castors so bought some stainless 20mm M8 with allen key dome fixed with zinc nylocs. On aircraft work l never cut bolts and every other job is the same. I normally work in read-the-manual-later mode. This time l watched your video a number of times and it really helped to do it right the first time (guess where that comes from?). Spring washers - realised we use these on metal to metal contact. Nylocs and plain washers are used on painted surfaces to protect the coatings.

[@argee55]

Really enjoyed the story.

[@HaxbyShed]

Thank you Argee. I'm never sure how people will react so I use 'story lines' sparingly. Cheers

[@leslieaustin151]

That looks good enough for a decent bit of welding. Very similar to mine in fact. But mine had British origins… I was given an old school computer table (in BBC computer colours if you know what they were). It did computer duty in the house for a while, after I extended the legs to make it fit an adult. Then I took off the chipboard/melamine top and got a top laser cut to fit - 3mm steel with 16mm holes at 50mm spacing. With some angle-iron welded in to the table-frame as cross braces under the top it does me just fine - 2 feet x 4 feet (can’t remember the Metric size). You might want to oil the top surface to keep the rust at bay. The oil won’t affect your earth contact. I enjoyed the Japanese story! Les PS, there is a place in Worcestershire making (fairly) cheap welding table-tops. They look OK.

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Les, I do remember BBC micros in schools although they came after my time. A good idea, I could easily add a couple of cross braces under the top if necessary. Let's see how I get on. I've loads of anecdotes from our time in Japan but I don't want to bore everyone senseless. Cheers Paul

[@lv_woodturner3899]

Looks like a good welding table. I have been looking at the one Harbor Freight is now selling, which comes with clamps and associated accessories. The only thing is does not come with is a way to fit this into the lack of space in my shop. Good story on the Japanese woodshop. Dave.

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Dave, at first I used to get a lot of 'empty audio echo' in my shop but not any more. You see I needed all that stuff to keep the reverb down. 😁

[@AWDJRforYouTube]

Great table Paul, you'l enjoy it for your projects✔👍

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Al, it think in my shop it will be used as a worktable more than a welding trolley. But I'm looking forward to the first bit of TIG on it, when the right project comes around. Cheers

[@waltermittyfonso6801]

@@HaxbyShed 👍

[@eyuptony]

Looks alright that Paul. Ideal for the home workshop. Cheers Tony

[@HaxbyShed]

Thanks Tony, the top is lightweight and can't be used as a 'surface table' to pull frames together for welding but I'm not making truck frame rails. For the light stuff I do I think it will be sufficient and with 600Kg load capacity I could always drop a bit of thicker plate on top for a specific job if need be. Cheers Paul

[@MissouriOldTimer]

I think it's great but if I had a choice, I'd rather the top plate be about twice as thick,, not the wood top but the metal plate.

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Vernon, good to hear from you. I think normally you would expect a welding table top to be at least 10mm thick but with my limited space and light work it will do for most jobs. It will be just as useful as a work table I can wheel out and then roll away back into the corner when I'm done. Cheers

[@kimber1958]

Looks great

[@HaxbyShed]

Thanks Kimber, like I say it's not battleship grade but it will do for my light work. Cheers Paul

[@russellwall1964]

Pounds and pounds! LOLOL!!! Even though I live in the US, I’ve learned to love and embrace the metric system. I find it much easier to work with, especially given oddities like ‘tenths’ that my mind just can’t navigate. I completely sympathize with you on putting that table together. I think that IKEA furniture might be even more of a challenge. LOLOL!!! Loved this video and thanks for sharing !!

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Russell, I agree most people know both inches and mm, I suppose we just like to be 'inclusive'. Actually I'll revise that, because I'm not sure the mainland Europeans know inches all that well. I spoke to my local Turkish barer and he's been in UK perhaps 15 years but he says all these inches and miles are still completely foreign to him.🤣🤣. Cheers

[@jaybailey3518]

Always interesting !

[@HaxbyShed]

Thanks Jay. 👍

[@philhermetic]

I picked up some old school stand/bench type frames with wheels each one has two castors and two feet, and hinged handles fitted. when you lift the handles you can move the bench around even when loaded, and when it is down it goes solid and doesn't try to run away when you push at it! Braked wheels tend to give a bit if you push too hard! I think that is pretty good value, and will be sturdy enough for most jobs! Phil, just about recovered from Covid! AGAIN!!

[@HaxbyShed]

Bad luck with Covid again Phil. I don't think I've ever had it, even when my wife had it. If there is ever a free jab I take it and I must have had 4 or 5 of those. I do have a heavy welding bench with two wheels at the front that my vice and surface plate sit on. It would be fine for stick and MIG but I can't get close enough for TIG. Cheers

[@user-fz9yy3ki7j]

Spot on with buying Chinese products, even when the advertising is on a UK site the product(s) are mostly from China. There are however, some smaller UK businesses operating, mainly family concerns, making quality nuts, bolts, fittings etc. Liked the anecdote on living in Japan. From experience l never found a single sign written in English. The time you spent on explaining the assembly saves us time. As l was looking for a table to support our new plasma cutter, its going to be a Vevor with an old plywood top.

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Geoff, there was very limited English signage even in Tokyo until the Korea/Japan world cup. The subway perhaps yes but get onto a local line then forget it. My Japanese friends were always amazed that I could get around on district lines but the fact is you only need to know one character in a station name and if you know the line colour you can make an educated guess. Most Japanese names describe geographic features. Cheers

[@geoffreyhome9306]

@@HaxbyShed That's the difference between someone who lived in Japan for years and someone who toured from Perth, WA to Japan. We went to Tokyo, Kyoto, and up mount Fuji. Someone helped us out with buying a ticket on the Shinkansen, which on the day reminded us of the sugar beet train from Sydney to Cairns - slow-stop-slow. It took a few days before we saw any other foreign tourists. Some very amusing 'English' signs on Fuji. Some of our colleagues worked at the Kobe yards, supervising design work.

[@JourneymanRandy]

Nice Paul. 1/2" or 5/8" would be a nice top but good start.

[@HaxbyShed]

Well yes Randy I would have to agree a 3mm top is ultra thin for a welding bench but proper welding benches are expensive and heavy/hard to move if you don't have suitable transport. I just googled one about 4ft x 2.5ft but no wheels with a 6mm top in a sale new at £629 / 799US$. That's a friggin lot to pay for 3mm. Another, 8mm new table 1m x 1m with 'precision' flat top (+/- 0.5mm) on 4 legs £1247 / 1585US$. I did see one on ebay used 4ft x 2ft with 6mm top no wheels for £320 / 400US$ plus another 100$ postage. All a bit expensive for a hobbyist unless you do a lot of welding. Cheers

[@greglaroche1753]

That looks like it will come handy. You can’t beat the price of items from China, unfortunately you get what you pay for. I assembled a horizontal bandsaw from China last week. It was frustrating for a number of reasons, the most being pre drilled holes not lining up. I had to do a bit of work with a Dremel tool to make everything fit. From past experiences, I used Locktite on all nuts and bolts. Thanks for the video.

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Greg, yes I agree generally China stuff can be low quality but to be fair I've also had some really good tooling from CY. Thinking of things like ER collet adaptors (but the super cheap collets themselves were not so good). And also when UK made tooling there were some great companies but also a fair bit of junk too. Cheers

[@CraigLYoung]

Thanks for sharing 👍

[@HaxbyShed]

👍 Cheers

[@carlwilson1772]

There was 'ell on 'ere...yes I get that reference. I sometimes buy washers and the like from local hardware shops but they are expensive. What I do is to get lots of the fastener kits from Lidl or Aldi when they are doing them. So I have lots of those kits of nuts and washers etc, good vfm. I think that table will be good as a welding bench , but the top isn't nearly thick enough to tame any warp that might occur. Don't think it is intended for that. I have a fold away welding table that hangs on the wall when not in use. I don't have the luxury of space to give real estate to a wheel mounted table like that. Often find M8 nuts made in the far east are 14mm AF instead of 13mm. Hope the table works out well for you. As a quick aside, my sis in law is American, she was in the US Air Force (my brother is in the RAF, that's how they met) and she was stationed in Japan. Having lived there and in the UK for 20 years now, she describes the Japanese as "The British of Asia".

[@HaxbyShed]

Well that aside about Japan is very interesting. I 'know' your brother from his channel. When we first moved into our apartment in Tokyo the landlady said "the Japanese and British are very similar because, 1) we live on an island, 2) we have a king/emperor and, 3) we both like dogs". When I think about the degrees of politeness in Japanese I can often relate that to English in that we both use indirect and past tense as more polite forms although we tend to have alternative polite words rather than different verb endings. Our polite words are often French in origin and the less polite Anglo Saxon. I find all that very interesting, but never even thought about (realised it) it until I looked at another language. Cheers

[@SeanBZA]

Wood top I would have given it a light sand, 100 grit, then 2 coats of linseed oil, and leave for a week to cure. The Workmate I put a small stainless steel strap onto the one bottom, and this allows me to hang it up on the wall when not in use, just fold it down, and it is off the floor, but easy to get to. It will fit nicely there in the corner, with the welding table and top in front of it, though with the new table you probably will never use it again, unless you are working outside.

[@HaxbyShed]

The workmate won't be away for long Sean I guarantee. The clamping vice action is very useful. I need to get some new rubber feet for it. Cheers

[@SeanBZA]

@@HaxbyShed Yes my rubber feet are all gone, concrete floors do that.

[@davidberlanny3308]

Hi Paul, very enjoyable review. I'm sure its more than good enough for what you need. The top does very thin though. Look forward to seeing it in action. Good idea to make a top for it, those corners looked like they would give you a very nice bruise!! I wondered from some of your previous videos if you had lived in Japan. What an experience so different from Europe where we have a common (more or less) alphabet. It seems a shame to loose the track layout. Glad to hear that the tracks and stock have been saved, was it Japanese? Definitely interesting these anecdotes I would enjoy seeing more. All the best!!

[@HaxbyShed]

Well we'll David, maybe I'll use anecdotes in moderation. Japan is one of my fav subjects but I could bore people senseless with it. Cheers

[@paulhammond7489]

I got decades of use from my B&D Workmate, but sadly it never got used as a welding table. I was hoping to see a coat of varnish on the well travelled 'top-cover', so you could to preserve the history of the train tracks and your time in Japan, as it would have made a good conversation piece....

[@HaxbyShed]

HI Paul, the workmate is a brilliant tool. Mine will get plenty more use yet. Cheers

[@paulhammond7489]

@@HaxbyShed My workmate was close to indestructible, but I did manage to sheer a roll pin in one of the screw clamps once when I was abusing it, but I soon found a replacement. Not sure if the newer variants will hold up as well as the original Workmates, but I guess many of the early versions will be around for decades

[@SeanBZA]

Spring washers not needed, but a tube of thread lock works better, or replace the nuts with nylock nuts.

[@HaxbyShed]

Ah yes of course Sean, nylock nuts I probably have some. My brain was on a track ..... must have spring washers, must have spring washers ...... Cheers

[@huibhoogendoorn503]

Thats's a good welding table Paul. It's look very stable. Nice story about the plywood. Is the temperature hy on your side because you work with the door open?

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Huib, it's not too cold now (around 8 to 10C) and the door open gives me more light for video, plus fresh air. Cheers

[@billdoodson4232]

Well, that looks like a winner there, Paul. I just priced up for a Kovosu cast welding table with tools at 1500 x 1000, I decided that at £4K it could stay in china. In the very early 80s, I was in Kobe, looking for somewhere to get a drink and spotted the English Bar, just off the Motomachi, repleat with Union Flags. I walked in, to be promptly chased out by the mama san, shouting , "Japan only, Japan only." With me protesting, "But I'm English". Not sure what it's like now, but the older Japanese could be quite racist back then.

[@glennwright9747]

I was in Yokohama in the mid 80’s on business. Interesting time. Women were second class, almost 0 English spoken, ( I really felt alone in a foreign world), first time in my life I felt tall. Petty crime was non existent. Even with the language barrier I was made to feel welcome. I was surprised to see older Japanese men pay extreme deference to Americans. I asked one of the older managers why… his answer… they beat us at war we owe it to them. The country was barely out of a feudal system!

[@SeanBZA]

My father went there in the 1980's on business, and yes his best help was a small pocket phrase book. He even drove a car there, that was his to use for the trip, though he was mostly in Toyoda, though he did do a trip on the Shinkansen from bottom to top of Japan. The host company actually helped him get an item off his bucket list, flying him on a JAL scheduled flight, in the cockpit, to Vladivostok, though, because of his passport, he had to stay on the plane, and could only walk around on the ground around it. But he did get to walk on all of the USSR, from the western end (Hungary, where he had a visa, and Cyrillic entry and exit stamps, which got him curious looks from customs when he came back) to the eastern end. In the first trip he also stopped at a hotel in Austria, and explained he had been a guest there in the 1940's, when it was a hospital, and the doctors put him back together, when his plane was shot to pieces around him. Also Switzerland, though there he had to admit to having a record for assaulting a policeman, who did not believe he was an escaped British POW, and wanted to send him and his companion back that night. Hit the policeman, tossed his ink well onto him, and got to see the magistrate the next day, who finally got confirmation of his identity, and then he was repatriated back to the UK, instead of being sent back to Germany, where his destination was Ravenbruck, which was the reason for his "totally unassisted, he stole an entire SS commandant uniform, and his drivers uniform, and the Adler staff car, after escaping out of the room using a rope made from blankets" leaving Austria in the first place. Policeman did not believe that his totally fluent German, and his claim to be a British national was true, at least on the second part, with his German name. He went to school in Germany, and left just before the war started, literally by a month, to apply at university in Leeds or Glasgow. Then him and his fellow prisoner, friends there, volunteered after the war started for the RAF, figuring better to volunteer, and get a choice, rather than being cannon fodder in a trench after conscription. both shot down the same night, in different Lancaster bombers.

[@HaxbyShed]

Sean - amazing story. He must have been a very colourful larger than life character. Thanks for sharing that.

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Glenn, we were in Tokyo but I visited Nagoya on business. We were behind a school crocodile (maybe 8 year olds holding hands in pairs) and I could hear them saying gaijin, gaijin (foreigner) .... so I asked the teacher in Japanese "do you speak English?" and she answered in English "I don't speak English". Just another (confusing) day in Japan.

[@HaxbyShed]

Bill I never came across any racism but in Tokyo they are more used to foreigners. Generally Japanese people are very tolerant of foreigners and all our bad habits because they do not expect a foreigner to know the rules. A classic example would be when we sit in the quiet zone of a café (often 2nd floor) without realizing and chat. Nobody says anything but obviously they are as annoyed as hell, whilst we don't even realise 🙄. I told me son-in-law that he had to sort his rubbish at Burger King into combustibles, plastics, food etc and he said "I'm not bothering with that", so I said "go on then brave man let's see you", and guess what ....for all that talk he complied like a lamb. Cheers

[@mohabatkhanmalak1161]

If I was to guess, the plywood would be from New Zealand pine. NZ has been exporting pinewood to Japan, China and other countries for decades.

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Mohabat, yes that makes sense. Japan has few natural resources actually so imports a lot. Cheers

[@TheRecreationalMachinist]

Looks like another excellent value item, and far more suitable than the workmate. I'd paint the underside too, as I think the bare wood against steel will promote rust. Like the Japanese provenance of the board, how on earth did you get to back to England?

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Matt, that's a good idea about painting the underside of the board. I'll probably varnish it. We shipped a lot of stuff back, furniture and all sorts, so a bit of plywood was the least of it. Used a global removals company and they would have combined our stuff with other families stuff in a shipping container. Cheers Paul

[@StuartsShed]

For the price that looks like a pretty decent piece of kit. Any idea how flat the top plate is? Looks pretty reasonable.

[@StuartsShed]

P. S. I enjoyed the anecdotes. Those always add some good context and colour. 👍

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Stuart, I've not put a straight edge over the top. It is 3mm thick (I checked it today) but I would not rely on it to be perfectly flat as built. I could put some angle bracing on the underside or a temporary plate on top if I needed to be assured of 100% flat accuracy. As for the anecdotes ..... just sharing fond memories really. Cheers

[@StuartsShed]

@@HaxbyShed Thank you - for context I bought a higher end table that needed to be welded together - it included ribs. However it ended up bowed 3/8” because of my lack of skls at the time. If your cart is 1/8” flat - likely a reasonable guess - then it’s a better tool than my table, and for far less money - better for novice welders very likely, and I wish I had gone that route.

[@JamesP_TheShedShop]

Right on 👍🏻

[@HaxbyShed]

Thanks James. Light weight but it will do for most jobs I'll be doing. Cheers

[@zeemanjr]

If you're worried about the nuts coming loose add some blue thread lock.

[@HaxbyShed]

Thank you, sometimes I do not think of the easy things. 😁

[@bobuilt10]

Ay up from Cas. Like Japan, most of the UK can't understand a word we say.

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi bobuilt. I also got my shaper from Castleford. Very helpful seller transported it to York for £50. Threw in a big static converter which I sold for 3/4 the cost of the shaper.

[@billdoodson4232]

@@HaxbyShed I get the odd bits and bobs from Ben at Toolz4You in Castleford.

[@HaxbyShed]

@@billdoodson4232 Yes I know them.

[@askquestionstrythings]

Went to a "police box" to get help... there were 4 men inside... it must have been "bigger on the inside" but the Doctor was nowhere to be found...

[@HaxbyShed]

Hiya, a kōban (Japanese: 交番) is a small neighbourhood police station, often not much bigger than a box. If you click this google link you should see the building and the green 'Koban' sign. www.google.co.uk/maps/@35.6555529,139.7371973,3a,75y,73.28h,106.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-0JZkJf4uUuSPKu3krbpXQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

[@askquestionstrythings]

@@HaxbyShed Yes, much bigger than the old blue British police boxes... but "bigger on the inside" in British science fiction tv shows like "Dr Who"... which is the unnecessary reference I connected with "police box"

[@HaxbyShed]

@@askquestionstrythings yes the TARDIS. I remember hiding behind the sofa when the first series came on. Ghosty black and white. Cheers

[@graedonmunro1793]

like the Japanese story,, table looks okay

[@HaxbyShed]

Thanks Graedon. Living in Japan was a bit of a challenge. Not many people outside of the office spoke English. But it was a fascinating experience. Cheers

[@grahambaker9377]

Top needs at least 10mm adding to it.

[@HaxbyShed]

HI Graham, yes I agree it is very lightweight. Would not act as a flat plate to hold things true. But it may be ok for the bit of light TIG that I do. Compared to a workmate it's a step up and easily wheels around, which is good for me with limited space. Cheers

[@peterhadfield873]

You've had far too many positive comments on this video so let me readdress the balance by saying I don't like the colour :-)

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Peter yes it is a bit lurid. 😆

[@camillosteuss]

3mil is really thin... Like, seriously thin... Anything below 10mm really is just anemic for a welding table... The top of the table should be at least sturdy enough to force some bends out with the clamps, not to conform along the bends as you clamp material down... I mean, it beats a wooden bench with 2 adjustable planks, but only in size and likely stability as this has a wider footprint... Hmmm... I think a much better solution can be hand with your machines and some proper stock from a scrapyard for that price... More effort involved, but for 170 euro i can get 283kg of any non-stainless steel... Enough to fit 4 thick walled tubular square profiles, some more profiles for bracing, a whole stock of 8.8 high tensile fasteners in black finish with 14mm dia, some thinner plates for the shelving and storage, maybe a few 10cm dia x 5mm wall-th. pipes to fit all the filler rod tubes and a 200kg slab o` steel for the top plate... And that monstrosity assembled could likely hold up over 1000kg of raw stock atop it without any sign of buckling anywhere... Best regards! Steuss

[@hilltopmachineworks2131]

Vevor website says the top is 2mm thick.

[@HaxbyShed]

Oh Tom I've oversold it then 🤣🤣. I should not trust other reviews. I did not measure it myself. All the best.

[@hilltopmachineworks2131]

@@HaxbyShed I have the smaller one. it is 3mm thick. That is why I went with it.

[@camillosteuss]

@@HaxbyShed Hey, as said, 2mm may be a scam for a welding table, but if it allows you to do the job more easily and with less contortion, bother and other flies in the ointment, well, then it is at least some consolation, and you got it for free, so you only gained from this deal, even the video itself is a boon of sorts, so until you either make or buy a proper unit, there is no reason for considering it as a bad thing... It`s more of a detailed technical ``how not to`` blueprint in solid form... Cheers! Steuss

[@HaxbyShed]

@@hilltopmachineworks2131 HI Tom I've measured the top on mine at 2.85mm, assuming my callipers are accurate. Cheers

[@MatthewTinker-au-pont-blanc]

This whole thing about the Chinese is ridiculous, the Chinese make the quality that the western business men ask for which is usually as cheap as possible, that's why a lot of crap comes from China!! Cheers, Matthew

[@HaxbyShed]

Indeed Matthew, it's kind of a race to the bottom in that sense. But the other side of it is that that cheap crap is probably good enough for most things, at a price we can afford (or are willing to pay). Cheers