Hub Dyno difference !!

[@danmoore6107]

Steve, any chance you could do a 3-video series where you dyno the engine alone, then put the car on the hub dyno, and finish up by putting it on a wheel dyno? THAT would be awesome.

[@stevemorrisracing]

Well, I do from my engine dyno to the hub, I don’t have a wheel dyno anymore

[@MrMikeT89]

I gotta see this! Great suggestion!

[@danmoore6107]

@@stevemorrisracing I thought you didn't have one but I wasn't sure if you maybe put stuff on somebody else's wheel dyno on any kind of regular basis.

[@freedomfox8183]

That would be a royal pain in the ass but if he has the car there he might at least do it on the hub dyno again after when it's all put in the car

[@MrMikeT89]

@@freedomfox8183 But it's for science! Lol It' be interesting to take an opportunity from a new build. Build the engine, dyno, put it in the car, hub dyno, find a wheel dyno...

[@nakiahearlson763]

One day I'll have a Steve Morris built engine this guy is one in a million love the videos!!!

[@jtsmith4434]

this is why i love this channel, does so much work, comes back and says....ya know what the people wanna know more.

[@rbarabanoff6439]

Have not been given the opportunity in this life to play with these awesome toys... Thank you for sharing with us.

[@ThePavilionlivin]

Would be great to discuss loading and ramp rate on the hub, what you target, why you may follow these guidelines, and what applications you may shoot for a wider/narrower ramp rate on the hub. Incredible work as always, great to see you behind the lens discussing what you do and all that you've accomplished

[@Carl_Jr]

I'm humbled by your generosity to share your knowledge with everyone. I just lost my job because of a manager who was very condescending when she attempted to teach me stuff. It's amazing to see the difference. 🍻

[@MrMcbear]

That studebaker is insane. Crazy how far drag cars have come with all the modern tech. Both in speed and safety too.

[@CLCIII]

First time I ever noticed the Steve Morris Christian "fish" logo. God ALWAYS Bless His Children! As Always, May God Bless you and yours!

[@grosenberger]

Thank you for being technical. Really enjoy the extra details that go into everything. Papadakis Racing is very similar! Both masterclasses!

[@vehdynam]

Thanks for the explanation ; it goes to show Mullet is making even more HP than Cleetus' wheel dyno showed.

[@mikef-gi2dg]

Your videos are down to earth, this is how it is, chocked with info, great work.

[@bigblockjess617]

Thank you for doing all these videos explaining everything. Especially all the technical things on engines. I learn alot watching your videos. Ive built engines for bikes,cars,trucks, but nithing like you guys do, so allbthe details you put in the videos teach me alot

[@michaelmcclure8673]

Steve this reminds me of dyno setup for boats. 1 you hook it direct to the shaft , the other you put the prop in a tank. This was a long time ago. ( before dirt was made) 😆

[@J1Z06]

It was great to see Your partnership with Cleetus and The Crew! You are a true professional that lets the results do the talking. I had a Paxton blower installed by ECS in NJ on My 2004 Z06. They use a hub dyno as well I'm sure Cleetus is ordering a hub dyno!

[@leftyeh6495]

I kinda doubt he needs or wants a hub dyno. He's doing his tuning at the track, vs Steve needing to do tuning in a controlled environment so he can get the car out to a customer with a baseline.

[@bigdawgs94]

Thank you Steve for the knowledge! You’d have to pay just to have access to this level of knowledge back in the day. My 92 Silverado dreams of getting one of your motors

[@davidthompson245]

Great explanation on roller dynos and the hub Steve,pushing a heavy car compared to a light one.Bonus canceling out wheel spin on the rollers.Upgrade time..

[@highvibegardens]

Was awesome to see your experience and skill with that type of power on a dyno with Mullet, and im even more excited to see this demonstration!

[@GaveLJorgensson]

Thanks for the good run down and technical information! It may be good to also outline the uses of a wheel dyno. If I remember correctly (and it's been quite a while) Cleetus ran Leeroy on a hub dyno and felt it was over-stressing the clutch he had on his manual transmission setup. In that case, it's possible the drive train needed the buffer provided by the tire.

[@leftyeh6495]

his clutch wasn't setup for the dyno. They couldn't hold the power on jeremy's dyno so they just went next door to get a quick test in. He did do a few runs on another video where they added a ton of weight to the clutch just to get big power numbers. They have also figured out that it's pointless to keep turning up the power on the dyno. Just get a good start and a decent tune, and then start adding power at the track where you can learn more than just a horsepower number. How the horsepower translates to the track is the biggest factor that needs to be observed, recorded, and studied.

[@timothyvaher2421]

Thanks for the teaching! Had no idea it was an electromagnetic load. My first Machinist job was "Taylor Dynamometer", Those units had water injection into an impeller housing to measure BHP. 1973 Tech!

[@leftyeh6495]

Most engine dyno's still use a water brake as it's easy to do and lets you do lots of runs. The chassis dyno can have either an electric brake or litteral brakes on the shaft to bring the drum down after being spun up. The electric brakes are nice because you can set the time of the run and do slower or faster sweeps depending on how heavy the car is and tune at a realistic "going down the track" rate.

[@JSxxxxxxx]

Nice job Steve - your videos are getting better and better. 🇦🇺👍🇦🇺

[@mwhitelaw8569]

Such a killer setup man Thanks for explaining it for the people Steve That's one sweet Studebaker man

[@randywl8925]

I noticed the tire distortion on cletus's car especially when you started ramping up the boost. After you just now mentioning that, it would have been neat to see a thermal imaging camera on that tire to see how much of his power turned into heat on the tire. As quickly as it happened, maybe nothing would have shown up...... we may never know.

[@Matty.Hill_87]

That would be cool to see

[@randywl8925]

@@AtlasLathe So can I 😁

[@JayAR_YT]

The best data you can possibly get is engine dyno then street driving/making passes.

[@Josh-nc6nt]

Glad you made this video. You guys were talking about this, perfect short and sweet video to continue that point from his video.

[@therealmattseal]

Hub dyno’s are so damn cool. Thanks for this video! Can’t wait to see the video on this car, if you do one!

[@ateague01]

Really cool insight into how the hub dynos work. Thanks Steve!!!

[@jh1867]

Great videos at Garrets shop with Mullet and this one explaining differences with the dynos . Great teacher

[@gt1man931]

As much as I have seen hub dyno runs and had the basics in my head I don't recall many or any in-depth videos with more details on how they tick. Would be super interesting to see, Steve.

[@eagle20g]

CANT WAIT TO SEE THE DYNO VIDEO! Thanks for your videos, love seeing cars I could never own being worked on by true professionals

[@johnbuchanan6045]

Wow, a studebaker Avanti drag car how cool is that. Loved the Cleetus engine.

[@owenspalding971]

From a engineering perspective the tire on a drum dyno has frictional losses that increase with normal force to the tire. So the hub dyno has no frictional losses from the tire. Engine power is only a reference number and depends on which part of the drivetrain you are taking the measurement. The only advantage I see with the hub dyno is not having to worry about a tire slipping and wear on the tires. Otherwise they both accomplish the same thing.

[@brucedressel8873]

Big hp cars are a different story.

[@cantstoptommy7077]

I agree and am glad you mentioned tire friction loss will be proportional to the normal force pushing the tire onto the drum. I think was Steve is getting at is that horsepower to the wheel on a drum dyno will be different depending on the clamping force you have to apply for different cars and using a hub dyno will eliminate that variable so you can get a like for like comparison across cars.

[@owenspalding971]

@@cantstoptommy7077 yeah I would imagine its hard to determine what load profile for the eddy current brake to apply so that you can simulate the weight of the car when you have frictional losses you can't measure.

[@liammcgrath6184]

Also the weight of the tyre and wheel package as well which another drive train lose on top of the other drive train components as well

[@jdmjesus6103]

Rotational inertia doesn't affect torque or power. Also most decent chassis dynos will calculate the percentage loss on the run down and factor that in. It's only inertia dynos that don't really. There will still be some differences though due to how the tyre deflects when under load versus run down.

[@andretorben2813]

Wow, Steve's workshop is one of those places where I'd pay him to work there. Such a professional setup.

[@jerrywallen8327]

Great explanation of the difference between the two dynos. Thanks for sharing!

[@gtorjoepontiac5136]

I learn A LOT from you Steve, thank you!!

[@ctgilcrest]

Avanti was and still is a great car. Fastest stock car for years. love what Ya did with this one. talk about one of a kind!

[@jeremyburger7845]

You are awesome and I am glad I get to watch your videos. Amazing info for all knowledge levels.

[@markhensley9378]

Looking forward to seeing more on this one. Thanks again for your time today.

[@vandarkholme7558]

what I think would be really cool to see is dynoing a car with the same tune on both hub dyno and a regular one, then we really get to see the difference!

[@wajfaj]

Depends a lot on how long the hub dyno holds it for a sweep or static rpm.

[@NovaRedHead]

Think I can speak for most. That Studebaker is content gold. If you can film more on it, we'd love to see it!

[@Rare_Brad]

Much appreciated Steve. Your work is incredible. Thanks for doing that quick video.

[@SaneCayne]

When Mitch said "1984", I was like, uh no! But I forgot Avantis were made (coach-built) deep into the 80s. I thought they were a 2 year only deal back in 1962 and '63. Cool car!

[@RealAnimeHours]

I did not know about the eddy current brake. That's some cool science worth expanding on.

[@Kefoo_]

-- Thank you, Steve. Cleetus' tires were definitely unhappy.

[@crazyrat51]

Just all about FRICTION!!! I HOPE that Avanti has some spoilers/wings or air diffusers on the back someplace! If not, it will fly at speed! Love your videos, ALWAYS informative!!! Thank You!

[@motojunkie7243]

As soon as video started I noticed it was an Avanti, but got confused when other guy said it's a 1984? Going to assume it's a reman body from 84, as Studebaker was no more in 1984... awesome to see it done up so nicely though, props to the owner/builder👍

[@nogle100]

Love these videos and your machining series, add some programming for the mills and you will have me hooked!

[@annwilliams2128]

I hope to see more of your incredible engines on drag week and maybe NPK. Keith

[@bryanluntz1603]

Good morning/afternoon Steve Intriguing and seems logical too Just straight power A Pleasure to meet you Folks Probably the Coolest Avanti I've ever seen👍

[@patriot2164]

Thanks for explaining the differences , Thanks for Sharing , Congrats on 113K Subs !!!

[@maxoneill5208]

Awesome stuff Steve. Love how you explained it. Can see your brain ticking over.

[@beb38138]

I love learning racing terms. I'm working a lot on vk56 engine on a Titan and I have a variable vacuum intake AKA PD 90 into with vacuum actuators for long/short tube actuation. LS throttle body and boi she is ripping already. I'm in North Mississippi so I can't really travel to the freedom factory off a whim I but I enjoy watching the content and learning. I would like to give a shout to open wide performance which is located in North Mississippi and it is about the only race performance shop in North Mississippi. 🤟

[@BenjySparky]

Steve you rock! I'm sure you've heard already that Cleetus done put the moon tune in Mullet! Lol. Love the channel and content! I'm here for the algorithm! Peace

[@southjerseysound7340]

the best way I've been able to explain tire loss on a dyno to people is the difference between pushing something with almost flat tires and tires that are inflated really hard.........before I had access to a awd hub dyno we used all the tricks to get my Audi from spinning including lowering pressures to strap it tighter like they did on mullet. Now a dyno is just a tool so numbers don't mean much. But most cars numbers that weren't strapped crazy tight were close to calculated hp based on performance. But when I hit the streets/track we blew our expected trap speeds out of the water😂 We trapped like 20mph faster than expected straight off the trailer and in an old heavy S4 that equalled a lot of power.

[@kevinfunk83]

Yep, when you measure at the brake you also aren’t spinning that mass too, so obviously adding more weight with a wheel and then even more weight to the wheel with gravity by strapping it down is gonna lead to different numbers. I thought of the same thing, it’s like pushing a wheelbarrow with a flat tire. So how is S4 drag life?

[@southjerseysound7340]

@@kevinfunk83 it's pretty good,we're trying to get the clutch dialed in right now but life keeps getting in the way. But we hope to hit some races after the 4th.

[@kevinfunk83]

@@southjerseysound7340 slipper?

[@bulletproofpepper2]

Thanks for sharing Steve and crew!

[@wbball15]

Neat stuff. Would rolling resistance of the tire compound effect the parasitic loss on the dyno?

[@Itsme-mx5tl]

Great video Steve! Keep up the badass work

[@rayrussell6064]

I'm glad you explained it now it makes sense to me awesome content Steve and looking forward to seeing your next video and as always be safe 👍

[@fabricationnation8052]

84 Studabaker......how cool, love that it is sooo different

[@turismo-russdog8134]

Great video Steve! Glad to have found your content, and just subscribed today. Respect Brother!

[@kiwidiesel]

Love the hub dyno follow up thanks Steve.

[@antoniok52]

I think of it like this: What’s easier to push, a car with a flat or a car with a Aired tires? Aired right? You don’t deal with the flat tire creating more resistance, when you strap down the car you’re essentially squishing the tire down, same when the car kicks into boost it naturally pushed down on the tire more, making more resistance. It might be completely wrong but that’s how it makes sense to me.

[@Wreckedekcoupe]

Glad your posting more steve!

[@southernpride9557]

Awesome video and Great job on Mullet's engine .

[@projectbumblejeep4190]

The first Avanti came out in the early to mid 60's. The coach work changed very little over the course of it's life. The styling on this car was way ahead of it's time.

[@billcornwall5696]

Cool. I also want to see the Avanti run!!

[@Vetteman372]

No Lie you are the best engine builder there is for race motors

[@Techangler65]

That’s so crazy stuff Steve. You can test a lot more stuff with the hub dino as well. Maybe you could go over the benefits of a hub vs roller or day

[@danagibbons9643]

New subscriber from Cleeters channel love the stuff u r building !!

[@SINSTER7THREE]

Very informative video, I’m glad I took the time to watch it. I’ll be back for the next one. Thanks

[@MrMikeT89]

Super cool car! Just watched The Mask recently and always laugh about the 'loaner'. Imagine the money someone would've paid for that thing now lol

[@RicoCantrell]

Love this info.bibhave often wondered why some shops use one vs the other. I always thought it was cost. Turns out, it's science.

[@excelerater]

cool ride,they spared no expense

[@S.park.y]

A wealth of knowledge in this man’s head - envious of his son haha

[@socalfun64]

Cleetus (Garrett), is so fortunate to have hooked up with You Steve. Although I don’t think His “Fans” necessarily want Him to go out and shake up the world of drag racing, the reliability and extra HP He’s gonna be putting down are going to really improve His Content. Hopefully, Cleet and SM can build a great relationship and take both to the next level!

[@superdave4029]

Looks like you gave Cleetus more freedom than he was used to. 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@cryptoskillz]

Steve, I have a head design I would like to just give you, I feel you're the best in engine design and I would love to run the idea by you, I wouldnt want anything in return, as you know a patent costs an ungodly fortune nowadays.

[@Gamingwithkyemorris]

just wanted to say u did amazing job ob mullets big block engine

[@DirtyD07]

It's simple physics. Friction force is related to the normal force applied against the friction surface. The harder you crank/strap down a car on rollers, your essentially increasing the frictional drag on the drivetrain, so you see less power. Hub Dyno is strictly inertial, only drag seen is the drag inside of the hub shafts, which is already calculated

[@shvrdavid]

Hub dynos are load bearing, not inertial. They use load bearing power absorber modules (PAM's), not a weighted drum. The torque needed to spin the shafts with no current is not subtracted from the final numbers because that is not how it works at all... An eddy brake creates the breaking torque, slowing down or stopping acceleration. Kilo-Watts used versus rpm limit is how the limiting torque is figured out. The only time you re calculate is if there are open differentials and the dyno modules support active sync. Active sync keeps all the wheels on the dyno spinning the same speed by braking or turning on an electric motor. Roller dynos are inertial, and measure horsepower based on acceleration (it's an accelerometer,). Hub Dynos are load bearing, and measure torque required to limit rpm changes (it's an electric brake).

[@DirtyD07]

@@shvrdavid when I say strictly inertial, I'm referring to no outside factors/forces like friction from the tire causes additional losses. The Eddy currents/PAM are what make it a load bearing device, because without those you are just spinning the inertial weight of the shafts which can be of a calculated weight, acceleration, force, etc today determine the power

[@shvrdavid]

@@DirtyD07 The only reduction in drag is the the mass of the rims and tires and the additional weight the straps add to hold the car down onto a roller dyno adding resistance/pressure to the axle bearings. So your about right there. There are still massive loads applied to the rear axle and wheel bearings on a hub dyno as well thou. Causing load on the system due to how the suspension puts the weight of the car on the rear diff. Yes it is less than strapping the car down, but the car is still creating a massive load that is trying to rotate the car around the axle. Not all hub dynos use 1:1 shaft to eddy/brake/absorber ratios either. Load increases with rpm rate, torque input, heat, cooling needed, etc. It does not do it evenly either. The inertial mass on the inside of the dyno doesn't matter anyway. It doesn't matter how hard it is to turn the hub dyno. You don't need any rotation or movement to measure torque, you only need an opposing force to stop or limit rotation. A torque wrench does not have to continue to turn when it clicks. The bolt supplied enough resistance to stop the wrench. That is exactly how a hub dyno works. It does not matter how much the torque wrench or the bolt weighed either. Because changing those weights would change rotational mass, which obviously didn't matter...

[@andrewlarimore2350]

I need that shirt you are wearing! Badass man!

[@l8tapex]

Thought about this when you guys spun... thanks for your content!

[@Robvdk69]

Would be interesting to know why some people use different power measuring techniques. Eg. horse power . Kilowatts etc

[@kevinsellsit5584]

On the right side of the car a quick glance told me "nice Camero" ... as soon as you walked to the drivers side my brain spun around and said "Oh My God that Camero is an Avanti"! Among the list of stupidest things I've done in life is I sold my fully restored 1955 Studebaker President Speedster (lemon lime). Damnit! Now I need to spend a few hundred bucks with my Psych Doc. Life is filled with tiny injustices. And some that are HUGE and self inflicted!

[@ggss1176]

.....much looking forward to episode 2 with that car dyno session

[@rocklover7437]

love them Studibakers .Very slippery .

[@vinceburris2538]

Very cool Steve. Thanks for explaining the difference.

[@MrMcNorm]

Looking forward to going through your videos and learning a thing or a billion. Thanks, and Cheers! =)

[@ch3no2killz]

I think that Avanti was corvette comp., Paxton supercharged 327, pretty cool when your 13!

[@Nitedontdie]

Had a feeling this would come up pretty soon Steve, thanks haha :)

[@davidmoore349]

I need to see more of that car, put together.

[@angrypanda3014]

Very cool Studebaker!!!!

[@mdb4879]

I understand the point you were making, but in the future I wouldn't compare it to pushing a heavy car or truck. Those are hard to move because of their greater inertia. It's more like trying to push a car with a flat tire. The tighter you strap the car down, the greater the contact patch area and the greater the friction. Plus you have to overcome the inertia of the tire itself, tire compound comes into play, yada yada yada. Anyways, that's the comparison I would use. A simple way to explain how an Eddy current dyno works is it's basically an electric motor that fights against the car. The amount of torque it takes to maintain a certain RPM is the torque the car is making. Of course you already know this, but it's a simple explanation for others.

[@sailingwind326]

Thanks for the information I knew a little about your setup but now it makes sense 💪👍

[@Gkitchens1]

It's definitely true using a hub dynamic gives you a more accurate reading of your true horsepower readings. But you can't drag race without your tires. Personally I'm more interested in knowing the horsepower that's usable, that makes it to the ground through the tires. Doing fancy things to be able to say your numbers are as high is possible is cool but it doesn't matter to me too much if I can't use it.

[@dontyouworryaboutit_]

Can’t get an accurate WHP number at these levels because you’re having to absolutely crank the wheel to the hub to prevent tire slip and you’re losing power from the true whp number with just the weight of the car on the tires

[@Phantom0309]

Good point but you don't drag race on the rolling Dyno either. Using the rolling Dyno adds more variables such as tyre pressure or strap tension which make it harder to repeatedly determine engine power.

[@Phantom0309]

Also regarding the point about using the power, look at how much different drag strips influence launch rpm boost etc. Much more to it than who has the most HP on a rolling Dyno

[@charlesgalea69]

Thanks for the video today steve.

[@MrBlackbutang]

Nice to see different cars vs cheby’ferd’s and dirge’s ! Thanks.

[@jaypop7385]

This was great thank you for explaining this to us!

[@DiGiacomo321]

Wanted to see that make a pull! Sick car

[@kevinfunk83]

Cleetus dyno uses an eddy current too I’m pretty sure, it’s a dyno com also. Dynojet uses the big solid drumb and not an eddy current. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

[@stevemorrisracing]

You are right, cletus did not use the eddy current add on

[@gailyoung9911]

HELL YEAH STEVE. LOVE THE CONTENT

[@cobrasvt347]

That's nice of them to use standard semi truck style U-joints. 👍

[@gradybaby8309]

u gotta be a damn scientist and a engineer to do what you do... trickery, its a nerd with dirty knuckles... lol... love the content...