Hwei vs. Invoker - Comparing the Arsenal Mages

[@basictutorialsforeveryone4247]

AM I THE ONLY ONE THAT THINKS TZAR POTATO IS WAYYYYYY TO UNDERRATED SUCH GOOD EDITING AND CONTENT. lets push this guy so the algorithm acknowledges thsi guy and he gets big

[@TZAR_POTATO]

You are so kind. Please stay a fan

[@eryalmario5299]

Tzar potato makes me want to play league and Dota :)

[@TZAR_POTATO]

Play what you find fun, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise! @@eryalmario5299

[@hooklife2750]

322 лайков.

[@LB7-l6z]

The thing about Invoker is that he incorporates every single mechanic from Dota into 1 hero, there is micromanaging several units, global map awareness for skill shots, cooldown management, positioning, very high team coordination (I couldn't begin to describe you the amount of times I've tornadoed enemies inside Chronosphere), farming, etc. I think this is what makes Invoker so much fun, it's like a perfect blend of everything Dota has to offer.

[@DavidGlendaleArdenaso]

yup ! single target disable, aoe debuff, aoe mana reduction, summon, global snipe, buff, escape (somewhat), space for initiator, another aoe debuff, aoe mass damage

[@lalnunpuiafanai9479]

same goes for hwei, he has cc's like: slow, root and fear, he has typical utility abilities like: shield, movement speed boost. He also have long range damaging ability, aoe slow and, simple aoe blast. And btw all his skills are skillshot based

[@Lastofhiskind-00]

​@@lalnunpuiafanai9479 every champ has skillshots. Nothing unique

[@huggygriggis1500]

Garen: Hold my drink@@Lastofhiskind-00

[@Lastofhiskind-00]

@@huggygriggis1500 enigma: hold my blackhole.... Oops you got sucked in garen. Bye b**ch

[@icroosing]

Invoker: who are you? Hwei: I'm you, but worse Invoker: pathetic

[@defearl]

In practice, Invoker’s primary way to “restore resources” is Ghost Walk, the spell that turns in invisible. While invisible, he regenerates HP and mana substantially.

[@RuRu0091]

It still took 10-20 sec just to regen enough mana to do anything U wont do that when in the middle of teamfight Go invis and wait ur hp go up xD

[@naenae2350]

@@RuRu0091wait for bkb to run out is a good idea

[@yarikyaryi]

@@RuRu0091 actually thats what invokers sometimes do. You can just auto attack (he is universal so his attacks hurt) out of mana or regen it in ghost walk to have few spell for later.

[@jermainerodgers]

Also movement speed

[@faessle4067]

@@RuRu0091 better than just dying lol

[@bclaw524]

TECHNICALLY, Ghost Walk gives move speed bonus, too. Just to invoker.

[@TZAR_POTATO]

This is true, and it gives regen. I left that out, to not be too clunky

[@jermainerodgers]

And slow enemies

[@mikeagonzalez7992]

i mean , it's a good try , but invoquer still the king of dificulty , it is like the meme of invinsible :look what they need to mimic a fraction of our power

[@somethingorother8794]

Personally like the flow of hwei more but I probably didn't try invoker enough to give a fair analysis, I'm also just really bad at dota in general.

[@pasteldad39]

Id say that hwei is 1. Not suoer hard by lesgue standards. And 2. Difficulty in league lies in different places. Where clean performance on champions of the mobile kind is more impressive (Akali, Qiyana and Irelia can be extremely mechanically complex and their players are scary when good)

[@onlystamina5932]

Meepo must be the god of difficulty then

[@mhel8757]

Meepo is much harder than invoker

[@johnpaultriana8431]

Oh yeah? I thought its meepo?😏

[@milliumorion1849]

Invoker: You use 10 spells because they're all you know. I use 10 spells because they're all I need. We are not the same.

[@HalIOfFamer]

Bring back dota all stars invoker! Some abilities were fun even if redundant, and it would get a leg up over league, a bragging right back to have a hero with the most abilities in any MOBA.

[@InquisitorCyTh]

@@HalIOfFamer Ah yes, the true PianoMage! -27 spells -no chill -no mercy

[@pt8306]

@@HalIOfFamer What's different between Dota: AS Invoker vs Dota 2's invoker? I thought it was a mostly straight port?

[@HalIOfFamer]

@@pt8306 nah. Dota All-stars is a completely different beast. I don't remember if invoker at the end of All-stars was as ridiculous, but when he was at his most awesome in WC3 dota was when he could conjure 27 spells. Some of them were moved to other characters. Like teleport for example. The way they did that is some spells required only 2 orbs instead of 3 and the order of orbs mattered. In todays dota you can do WWQ and it's tornado but you can do WQW or QWW and it's gonna work. In AS it would not. You'd get different spells.

[@pt8306]

@@HalIOfFamer Interesting. He's borderline OP now in good hands, so I wouldn't be surprised if they simplified him for balance reasons. A teleporting Invoker sounds terrifying,

[@7Exartive]

maybe im just biased but invoker combo looks way way more satisfying

[@TZAR_POTATO]

It is, and in the later part of the video I go into why :)

[@hulahula6182]

dota has better sound design, more memorable

[@nicreven]

can I please escape hololive for ONE day? xD based ollie pfp though

[@theguy8412]

​@@hulahula6182 Not really, it is hero/champion dependent, I played dota since 2002 and I swapped to league full time the moment I discovered pyke, the adrenaline you get when you go in with w e into r execute with the whole thriller sound into one shots is incomparable. It feels like you're the megalodon in jaws murdering people

[@thefunnyrocket.8141]

that is true, hwei is cool and all but he is still the same stuff league has been making for years. dmg slow shield and fear, very boring sadly.

[@runescape9812]

Invoker is complex not just because "hehe, 10 spells" but because said 10 spells are all very different from one another and combo into each other in many complicated and cool to pull off ways. And I don't mean different in the sense of "The Q projectile version is damage while the E projectile version is damage and CC" like here. They're completely different spells whether they be an AoE Mana Burn, summons a unit, a line knock-back, a global point-AoE skillshot with a delay, etc. And the combos, depending on which ones you go for first, enable you to play him as multiple roles. Hwei is complex by League standards but his 9 basic spells are essentially just variations on projectile, line, AoE (the pseudo-Nami E breaks the norm a bit). And regardless of what builds you go for, I feel like his play pattern will just be the same across them

[@SadFace201]

I agree. And also the fact that they split Hwei's abilities into Q for damage, W cor utility, and E for CC. This means you can't do combos like Maw pull into root since both share the same cooldown. Hwei's W abilities literally do not combo with anything, meaning Hwei is limited to just some sort of opening CC from E into whatever damaging ability he chooses from Q. It's very lackluster compared to Invoker.

[@Tiagocf2]

great take

[@bau9894]

it looks like you have freedom at first but looking closely it just funnels you into one of each which is very sad

[@yarikyaryi]

Basically 5 or 6 abilities just different waves. 1 does damage, other dot damage, other burst damage and so on. Kinda boring tbh.

[@esc3107]

he doesn't have to aim them tho

[@CalaTec]

I'm glad to see a friendly approach when talking about both Dota and League. As a League player, I feel attracted to Dota even if I don't play it and i respect the Dota community.

[@NitBeanTheMachine]

Just so you know the respect doesn’t go both ways and my guess is OP made this channel as a thinly veiled attempt to critique league but is just too scared to make his channel out-and-out anti-league content.

[@N008ST3R]

@@NitBeanTheMachine IDK., As person who plays Dota. It was interesting to look at the analogue of the Invoker in LoL. maybe this channel realy was made for combine both community

[@nunyabiznes7446]

Also worth noting - invoker can be kind of a right-click monster in the early game (and to a lesser extent later on). There's just so much flexibility in his kit with the invis and stats and summons and attack speed boost. Like imagine if Hwei just said "I'm gonna be a stealth right click assassin for a bit, brb." On the other hand, Hwei's got more than one spell dedicated to helping his allies... I predict those are going to be the victims of cooldown priority if things turn out as you say. Still, it's way better than their last attempt at Invoker, which gave us Aphelios somehow

[@TZAR_POTATO]

invoker being universal has just.... so much attack damage!

[@hkl2007]

@@TZAR_POTATO Old lvl 25 talent used to give invoker insane rightclick, he always hit like a truck with exort

[@UltraFridge]

"On the other hand, Hwei's got more than one spell dedicated to helping his allies" Assuming by this you mean Invoker only has one spell for helping allies I strongly disagree. If this were true Invoker 4 wouldn't exist. If we're limiting "helping allies" to just spells that directly and only affect allies then sure he only has one spell but that's kind of ignoring the extreme defensive utility of cold snap, ice wall, tornado, and deafening blast. And then of course alacrity for big dam.

[@hkl2007]

@@UltraFridge Well it's also the roles he can fill in a team is quite versatile. Hunting enemy in ghostwalk with nado/coldsnap/icewall/hex/whatever, sitting backline counter engaging with nado, following up on initation with nuke dmg, rightclicking with alacrity and spirits, defending the pos 1 with cc and giving alacrity, aoe cc etc etc etc, invoker basically does it all while this guy is just gonna sit max range and throw spells

[@Inf1e]

Back in the days, while necrobook was around, I had much fun playing summoner Invoker.

[@-KpAbilio-]

I think Hwei would be cooler if his ult resetted his cooldowns. Saddly, everything in league is just damage, with some utility, sometimes.

[@eil_rovisoft7097]

Main issue with that would be pain in the ass for balancing. If Riot would do this, this champ definitely will be only for play, ‘cause his kit will be very ult-oriented.

[@-KpAbilio-]

@@eil_rovisoft7097 you have a point. And after 6, his cooldowns would be his ult, which isn't that interesting of gameplay. Maybe some type of CDR on his passive instead of more damage and a ult that just replicate the last book he used could be interesting

[@TheOzumat]

@@-KpAbilio- Maybe instead of putting the whole "reagent" on cooldown, put just the individual spell. So you press QQ, your QQ goes on CD, but you can still press Q, it opens your Q "spellbook" and your QW and WE are still available, while just QQ is on CD. Yeah it's kinda busted cos it allows you to always have something to cast, so it really shrinks the opponent's window to punish you for missing a spell, but that could be addressed by making all of his cooldowns longer.

[@JAPSICLE]

@@-KpAbilio- to add to your idea about cdr, his passive can be a conditional thing like he has to hit champions in order for his passive to trigger and the more champions he hits with his skills will increase the cdr. His skills have independent cdr, his q can only reduce the cdr of q skills, his w only reduces w and so on.

[@doommaker4000]

​@@TheOzumatThey'd have to make more mana problems for Hwei then.

[@rexvyoli8657]

I imagine Hwei as a shape shifter like Gnar or Jayce but his abilities cooldowns are lock in a single cooldown but he can access all 3 forms at once

[@mudryyf.2990]

Exactly what I thought. Well said.

[@Chuwaca]

When you playing Invoker feeling the Real Arsenal Magus.

[@DeadFishFactory]

This is also a good video to showcase Dota's superior sound design. Invoker's spells just sound more powerful, defined, and super chunky compared to the LoL spells. Alacrity, the one that increases your attack speed, may sound boring on paper. However, it synergizes with his other spells. It combines with Cold Snap, because Cold Snap stuns and deals extra damage on landed attacks, so Alacrity + Cold Snap = faster attack = more stun and damage. Alacrity can also be casted on teammates and units, so you can buff your right-click carry, use it on your Forge Spirits spell (Forge Spirits also remove armor on each attack, so that means more armor reduction), or you can use it on your siege units (catapults) to speed up destroying towers.

[@anarma9590]

This video explains the similarities and differences in depth and the comment section is actually more civil than i thought. As a player of both games, it's honestly surprising AND refreshing compared to the comment sections in facebook and reddit

[@TZAR_POTATO]

Yeah comments on my videos tend to be pretty all right. That, and I actively block stuff that's too offensive :D

[@bird.of.hermes.4]

​@@TZAR_POTATONow I know why my comments always seem to disappear. .. Grrr... . . . Jk

[@mannydion-nn5ge]

Loved the video! At first, I expected a generic Dota2>LoL video, but in reality it's just a video of you showcasing your love for arsenal mages, and I'm all for it! I just checked your other videos and you seem really welcoming towards League players trying out Dota 2. Honestly, the elitism and hostility I keep hearing from Dota folks have made me not want to try out the game at all and stick to League, but watching your videos made it seem less daunting to try it out.

[@TZAR_POTATO]

Glad you enjoyed! Come to the discord and say hi. The "elitism" is a very loud minority, people don't really care, and a lot are willing to help you give dota a shot! You just have to be very vocal when playing that you are totally new and from league and want advice.

[@Igor369]

Yeah, he sounded as unbiased as possible... and still Invoker seems VASTLY cooler and WAY more interesting than Hwei...

[@PurpleBrain14]

ye the war between moba's fanboys is rly boring. I play and enjoy both, they're different games fun in their own ways, dota is more challenging and competitive in my opinion while lol is more chill and casual. I suggest u to try dota tho u missing one of the most fun games out there!

[@OnePieceSS23]

I tried to play Dota and the entire community at the time was just so arrogant, like if they're proud that the game is hard and dont even care about other things like design, fun, etc. I honestly did not see a single video besides this one that made Dota seem enjoyable, its always ''wow its so hard'' or ''wow its better than lol because its harder''

[@TZAR_POTATO]

You don't like my other videos? :'( @@OnePieceSS23

[@deltanoiro]

I appreciate seeing this video. When Hwei was annonced I had this flashback to the brief time a friend tried to get me into Dota, but couldnt remember what the characters name was that he was using. Good to know i didnt just imagine that time of my life.

[@MM-vs2et]

This comparison also displays the engage range of these two games. What is considered long range in League, is mid range at most in Dota. Long range in Dota is more than one screen away. And in the late game, that also could be considered mid range. In League, targets could be in the same screen as your champ but still considered long range.

[@Surreal96792]

League players saying skill shots are more prominent in league have never touched dota. Pudge, Mirana, invoker, and even natures require so much more skill to land their shots. Maybe they weren't prevalent in their games because... herald gameplay

[@brenito2092]

​@@Surreal96792 League doesn't have turn rates, and most characters depend on skillshots, including carry characters. Hitting and dodging skillshots is a minor part of Dota's micro game, but in League it is a major part, alongside movement in general.

[@KradDrows]

​@@brenito2092Minor part? Have you ever saved you teammate from Necrophos ultimate while being SD or Bane? Something about people (league players) isn't aware of is that, yes all skills are target, but that means your enemies CANNOT fail so you can't do stupid plays or dodge everything just for having better ping. The fact that your ways of dodge spells are limited is what makes it hard too.

[@moon7silver952]

The problem LoL design team faces is that if they have independent cooldowns, they have to make Hwei dependant on some other resource. Mana won't do, as it only requires a couple items to have infinite mana. Longer cooldowns on spells won't do, because that's not really what LoL is about. So I understand why they went with shared cooldowns, but it makes him more of a stance dancer than an arsenal mage.

[@brixxconnor3411]

Mana on League is fucking insane! You literally cannot run out of mana at all. Like mana management is non-existent. I fucking hate that I can just cast spells without repercussions. Might as well not have mana at all.

[@ДюсековИльяс]

@@brixxconnor3411it’s more of a thing to punish mages and spell reliant people in lane in early game

[@xolotltolox7626]

Yeah, in LoL unless you're one of the 3 champions riot hates enough to actually give them mana costs, you'll never run out because mana sustain is so insanely plentyful This is mainly an issue arising from the fact that manaless champions exist

[@u12blue]

For league players, you might be intersted in Sumiya's or Miracle's invoker highlights to just see how crazy the hero is.

[@jonathan6935]

They gonna see the gods Gameplay and highlights

[@Lastofhiskind-00]

Those tiny brains can't comprehend miracle's 1% power

[@bashdota1553]

idk much about leauge but once you feel the the real experience of playing invoker your soul automatically bounds to it. Hell, the way i got here is while im randomly searching for "dota2 invoker song" even tho i haven't played the game for more than a year lol

[@mudryyf.2990]

You explained this indirectly but I think the main reason why Hwei feels less "satisfying" than Invoker is that, while they have the same number of spells, Invoker has a much bigger number of combinations available, making choosing the right ones a lot more challenging and engaging. Hwei is more intuitive, but ends up feeling like a champ whose Q, W and E change forms depending on the situation, rather than a champ with ACTUALLY 9 spells to choose from at any time.

[@Galvaxatron]

Invoker's spells seem way more unique and versatile. Hwei's spells all seem like variations of the same-iah thing.

[@TZAR_POTATO]

mhmm, I see it

[@hakubak201]

I think it's no surprise that Invoker is still by far the more unique/difficult kit with a way more adaptable arsenal of abilities, but that's just how the two games work sometimes. League is overall less complex, but the broader audience it's appealing to would enjoy Hwei more because of the more intuitive way they let people access their options on the fly. Like you said, it's more focused on mobility and skillshots, and in a faster paced environment having quick access is important. I agree that I wish his abilities had closer cooldowns to each other so that he could have a better "flow" to his kit - QQ spam feels boring. Great video tho, first I've seen of yours but gonna check out more :)

[@pauloazuela8488]

Yeah since League is more micro(mobility and skillshots) focused while Dota is macro(position yourself then commit and delete)

[@mariodv5161]

Well in dota there are almost no skillshots so idk mate , try to miss an attack in dota

[@KradDrows]

​@@mariodv5161That's the point, your enemy can't fail so you have to use your brain, don't expect luck or fails.

[@dreuwithme2946]

Thank you Tzar, I find Hwei interesting but still Invoker is the OG and he's really difficult compared to Hwei

[@kunibertrandolf1886]

First time watcher and I must say, besides of explaining to me who Arsenal is suuper nicely, you sound so friendly and nice and bubbly. Love listening to you already :D

[@TZAR_POTATO]

Thank you!! Such kind words, come back and enjoy my other videos ;)

[@ioannishussein8038]

That was a splendid mixture from Invoker. His stats passively increase and can use multiple abilities. Which is why there were TWO champions with one of the two mechanics each: Aphelios and Hwei.

[@NSLukas]

Great video and amazing editing! I like the champion overall, but i expected a bit more, Invoker is way ahead I'd say. Visually i think its very underwhelming, the particle effects on skills are nice, but for such an ambitious champ i think they fumbled the visual identity quite hard (he looks like a character from The Road to El Dorado), I was hoping for more of a badass design. The artist/painter aspect of it fits quite well with a champion that is supposed to be creative, lets just hope the kit allows for diverse gameplay and creativity in teamfights.

[@yarikyaryi]

Another femboy, nothing new for league

[@ДюсековИльяс]

He’s meant to look dull, to draw you in towards his abilities to help instantly see what ability he has at his disposal. And it’s also a good visual. So like I guess for visiual clarity they chose to do it

[@kjmt7760]

Another thing to note is that, since the recent update where invoker become a universal attribute hero, he basically can fill any role now. A support, right clicker, an initiator and even a tank

[@Saradomin65]

And paired with how you should utilize items as well like blink dagger, shivas, refresher makes invoker really difficult.

[@cicadarinn1253]

you have so much knowledge and it what entertaining listening to your comparation. I enjoy it

[@TZAR_POTATO]

Cool right, for a guy that doesn't even know how to play League :D

[@profaugust7423]

ok how underrated are you ! i didnt even. think i would actually get a video of what i searched that was actually entertaining and informative! with no "trashing" other sides you deserve my sub and i will watch all your videos ! THANK YOOOOU

[@TZAR_POTATO]

Thank you for the subscription

[@nova_supreme8390]

I wish they had sprinkled the cc, utility and damage into all three slots so you could more heavily lean into utility for example instead of just choosing one from each for a single rotation. That way the character would have felt more flexible and versatile. This of course would mean that the damage potential of anything else besides full damage rotation would have to be meaningfully weaker in terms of damage to make the tradeoff impactful.

[@manoi8]

Kinda smart that they simplify if there are 2 orbs in the recipe, for example QQE-> QE, and just move the QWE into R I guess the advantage of the invoker way is you cook the skill first (3rd skill recipe is already in place, just use invoke) and then you can fire all very quickly meanwhile, Hwei needs to cook the recipe while casting the combo, albeit an easier one I guess Invoker does build refresher so quick casting combo is a must Another advantage is micromanaging skill order and passive but that is really hard, especially with the recent passive change That cooldown tho, eugh

[@bachkhoahuynh9110]

These two scale differently from each other: Invoker scales by how long it takes to the next skill (R's cooldown), and Hwei scales by his AP. If you give Invoker the two-orbs mechanism you described, he in the late game is not so different from his early game.

[@lmntsgames3848]

Definitely thought the same for the last part.. because Hwei's abilities have shared cooldown instead of individual cooldown then you can't freely cast any spells.. you just need the most efficient ones suitable for the situation.. Invoker can do multiple spells because each spell feels like an ultimate skill, just a little toned down but definitely more powerful than a normal skill.. hence why he can afford having long cooldowns for his skills so he can use everything without spamming only one spell in a team fight.. in Hwei's case, you are most likely to spam QE because that provides a ton of space control.. same for EW..

[@Kserijaro]

"UGH HWEI MORE INTUITIVE DURR" Channel has so much LOL bias its not even funny.

[@freshlymemed5680]

The only part that sucks about Hwei is having his abilities be on shared cooldowns. So you can't combo his CC spells into one aother or go full support and chain his utility spells. What makes Invoker so interesting is his ability to chain basically his entire list of spells together and in different ways where as Hwei still has the typical Q W E spells but can choose what each Q W E does before it goes on cooldown. But I suppose thats par for the course, Dota 2 is the more complex and nuanced game after all and League is streamlined and prefers high mechanical execution.

[@hkl2007]

I think you undersold invokers combo game, when u get low invoke cd with octarine and lvls u can do some really dirty stuff, nado from invis, angled icewall emp sunstrike coldsnap meteor blast on enemy medusa siegeing highground. And that's not even talking about refresher combos. Meanwhile this hwei guy is just gonna use his nukes and hope enemy dies, the spells themselves seem quite generic, invoker spells are all kind of weird and tricky, no straight up stun/nuke spell, no spammable aoe waveclear etc.

[@jool9639]

my brothers are dota veterans, one is an immortal player and a hardstuck crusader. me on the other hand i only really played league and played a lil bit of dota. as a kid i watched them play a lot and really liked the hero design for invoker. having an invoker now in league is exciting cause i really love champs who are mechanically hard to master. but you can’t compare hwei to invoker. i played hwei a few times now on the pbe. really fun to play, intuitive ability design but once you get the hang of him i start to notice he’s very reliant on his Qs for damage. it really takes away from the spellcaster arsenal mage fantasy with the high cds too

[@TZAR_POTATO]

I absolutely agree. Those cooldowns are just absurd.

[@filipberger2979]

Riot suck at balancing, and well, they would either overboost him or kill him completely like with zeri etc. @@TZAR_POTATO

[@gervasfuhrmann1506]

I wish Hwei's passive would buff his next spell cast and stacks up to somewhere around 10 stacks and would drop if he didn't cast any spells for some time. Of course his overall kit would need to get tuned down, but to me this is what a real spellweaver should do/work best as. For example, maybe his mana cost increased every stack or increased cooldown, maybe if he drops the stack he would get longer cooldowns but more damage etc. There are so many awesome ideas that Hwei could have had that I wished had been implemented. TL;DR I wish Hwei's passive would focus more on casting lots of spells with some tradeoffs to fit a spellweaver/spellslinger playstyle.

[@jmaz333]

I would love a passive that would grant cooldown reduction instead of damage for spells hit with Hwei. I just imagine hitting every spell in a 3 spell combo and having massive cooldown reduction until you run out of mana if you keep hitting spells. When playing invoker I feel like I can do 100s of button presses in a fight if I time my combos perfectly, it's a very satisfying way to play.

[@eil_rovisoft7097]

In league you can build a lot of haste from items. So, it’s a little bit unnecessary. (and much harder for balancing in pro play too)

[@xolotltolox7626]

​@@eil_rovisoft7097not really uf you're going full damage In league, as a mage you are building Luden's Tempest, Voidflame, Rabadon's Deathcap, Zhonya's Hourglass, Voidstaff and Sorceror's boots every game. And only Luden's and Zhonya's give ability haste out of those items

[@konrad0783]

Excellent comparison between both heroes and excellent choice of music with the ODST ambience music.

[@brenito2092]

Gauntlet's Wizard also only needs 2 reagents for each spells, has 9 spells, and can use multiple spells from the same reagent, each spell having its own cooldown, plus the potion.

[@deathcare]

I was actually kind of excited for this hero in League when it was announced but it really feels like if they just took out all of the fun parts of Invoker's spells because League isn't allowed to have stuns or global abilities or whatever else because its players will cry.

[@imongLoloJVSon1608]

dota really just has a lot more space for individual plays to shine and just creativity imo

[@beaub152]

Very true, league is bloated with the same hero over and over again

[@rhorantyko7796]

Why is that?

[@ДюсековИльяс]

@@beaub152lmao, “I don’t play league, but I play dota so I’ll bash it without knowing anything”

[@AmantePatata]

@@beaub152 meanwhile dota is point n click stun into faceroll keyboard, so fun and interactive

[@KradDrows]

​​@@AmantePatataDo you want to try to do what you said in 1 vs 1?

[@angelicoz]

A way to make Hwei's skills less "just spam Q" and more "combo with everything" is to make Q, W and E share the same cooldown. For example, if you use Q it will have a 10 seconds cooldown, and as it goes down if you use W it will the the same cooldown from Q. That would mean if you use only one skill, when it gets to like 2 seconds you can use your other skills and when the cooldown resfresh you get them all back to make a super combo . Of course that would mean an heavy rebalancing, but I think it would be much better. Also, they really need to buff some skills, especially in his W. Like, W-Q should heal a little bit and W-W should get a little bit of Armor and MR only for Hwei, because right now W-E is the one you will use the most. Also, buff E-Q and E-W range slightly, because they are really slow so they *need* range. I think the rest is just fine

[@regalvas]

After watching your complexity comparison from 11 months ago I was wishing you could have included Hwei in it for obvious reasons. Glad he basically got a dedicated video in the end

[@TZAR_POTATO]

Happy to entertain!

[@regalvas]

@@TZAR_POTATO I look foward to when you get to Viego and Sylas

[@TZAR_POTATO]

@@regalvas Viego vs morphing, Sylas vs rubick

[@CH-vr2dl]

i cant imagine that new champion to dish out 4 spells in a teamfight considering how fast league fights ends

[@Daniel-qn9rw]

This comparison is awesome we need more videos like this, you earn a sub ❤

[@TZAR_POTATO]

I have a lot of videos like this!

[@williamnankivell488]

People have got to remember that invoker had 3 orbs and 27 spells in dota 1 and so changing away from 3 orbs although making it simpler would just change the whole identity of the hero

[@JustAlex2000]

I think the reason why Hwei has such long cooldowns and pretty big mana spending is cause those are the two ways Riot tried balancing him not to feel like "Too much". From what I've seen, League community likes and prefers simple and straightforward things far more than Dota. I mean we've had tons of people complaining non stop that champions keep getting too much in their kits and feel "Overloaded", to the point where Riot has had to speak up about it on multiple occasions. Best example I can give is Aphelios who is sort of an artilery mage but as an ADC with 6 different guns. People to this day still give Riot shit for making such a "Complicated and overloaded" champion. So I can imagine that if Riot released Hwei with smaller cooldowns to fully capitalize on the artillary mage fantasy, league community would be up in flames. So I think a lot of the times when Riot is designing a new champion, they take into account the skill and complexity, realizing they can't crank it up to eleven, otherwise nobody would play them outside dedicated one tricks and pro players. Azir to this day has one of the lowest pick and play rates anywhere below Diamond or Master Elo. As someone who has been playing league for 10 years now, I think Hwei seems to be in a solid place right now design wise. I can't speak on any of the damage numbers, but the idea of him having Q as primary damaging spells, while others are more situational is what Riot was going for. So if they wanted to lower Hwei's cooldowns on his W and E casts, they would need to heavily reduce his damage, because otherwise we'd just have another Aphelios situation where a champion is overwhelmingly overpowering everyone else due to having 3 times more tools on average than the rest of the roster.

[@funkwolf]

Dota 2's hero design and actually overall design is superior to League, no question about it. What dota 2 has in game design, League has in marketing; that's just how it is. Your assessment that Hwei is a dumbed down version of Invoker makes a lot of sense, like everything League is a dumbed down version of dota

[@geekobgaming5647]

many dota heroes feel completely random with abilities just mashed together. They dont have cohesive themes, looking mostly same having no clear vision or playstyle. I mean cmon. League has over 100 milion monthly active players with biggest competitive scene in the world and you act like its because of marketing, while dota is owned by the same company that owns steam and has the original name xD I like dota, its interesting, but its not even the same universe these games exist in. Hwei needs to be simpler than invoker because league combat is much faster with more mobility involved. Its not about how many abilities he has but what he realistically can do with them. In slower game you have more time to strategize on spot and make more complex choices. In league where everyone moves fast deals more damage you act inherently more reactive and design needs to reflect that. Complexity doesnt always mean depth. And im glad riot realized this and took what was best about original community dota while leaving all stupid mechanics, boring interactions and limitations of the warcraft engine behind.

[@shadowraze97]

@@geekobgaming5647 leaguetard alert prob spamming yummi in solo q

[@couchpotato1546]

​@@geekobgaming5647the only thing that has no cohesion here is your brain

[@geekobgaming5647]

@@couchpotato1546 your reaction says a lot. Encourages the fact that im right.

[@SamLoki]

Just put the specific spell on cooldown but still make the reagent selectable for the other spells in the kit. A huge part of Invoker (or any hero really) balance is mana manageme- they just need to give Hwei mana problems

[@manuelmarce2544]

Hell yeah! I've been waiting for this!

[@TZAR_POTATO]

Here it is!

[@spaceriot23]

Finally a good comparison, love your content man

[@TZAR_POTATO]

Whatcha mean, All of my comparisons are good!

[@spaceriot23]

​​@@TZAR_POTATOI mean invoker/hwei comparison vids out there, your comparison are much detailed, even you managed to make invoker/hwei vids seamless in 1 scene

[@TZAR_POTATO]

@@spaceriot23 oh there are other comparison vids? Thought I was the only one!

[@JacobNax]

Back in 2009 i played with some crazy unkillable invoker players that have left me speechless on how fast they could perform 20 key strokes in just under 2 seconds

[@j3nki541]

Ye that's what I thought on his reveal. He's basically a normal champion with inflated options. Still looks really fun, prolly a bit overtuned on the damage for how massive his range is, but yea with his long cooldowns he doesn't really hit as advertised. I wonder what it would be like if his spelldamage would be really low, but he can just urf permacast all his stuff. Yo but invoker looks hella fun, I might install Dota just to try that champ xD

[@WorldEaterZero]

thanks for the comparison video! after looking at all Hwei spell it seems like its an over-exaggeration that he is the Invoker of Lol

[@pipdev8636]

This is exactly what I was thinking too... the fact all the spells share cooldowns kinda means hwei just plays like a regular guy. because its league and the guy has so many damage and cc tools i dont think theres much chance of all the spells getting individual cooldowns in its current state. his kit would need to be toned down and more situational tools like his W group. his QQ, QE, EQ and EE are the main culprits of being too good to throw out all together

[@krpp]

Don't play league but it looks like he just has 7 damaging skillshots. You can guess what would happen if you have that with low cooldowns and no real mana constraints. If you nerf his damage to compensate, you make spells unimpactful. Scaling it with the passive makes him very unreliable. I'm interested to see how they balance him and still make it a viable hero. Would like to see some pro gameplay compared when he's out. PS you should checkout dota1 invoker from when he had 27 spells.

[@TZAR_POTATO]

Already know all about 27 spell invoker. Yeah, seeing a pro's take would be so cool.

[@annpyingshek4693]

Hwei is extremely mana hungry especially in early game.

[@TZAR_POTATO]

Same as Invoker, which is why both have access to mana restoration. @@annpyingshek4693

[@Amaling]

Can’t wait for league’s take on any of the characters like Tiny Chen or Techies Used to think it won’t happen but now idk

[@adrianbunea2006]

Riot could add a global 2 second cooldown on each individual spell reagent, and varying length unique cooldowns for each combination. This could prevent him from spamming the same spells while allowing him to have a more continuous spellcasting

[@lev3271]

League needs spamming heroes,its an adrenalin crappy shit u dont have any rts/moba mechanics,its just all about adrenaline and fast fights Are you hooked on the needle? You lost this game....poor thing...do you want to start the next game?)

[@adrianbunea2006]

@@lev3271 I mean, you're actually right. League is more like a Brawler with Moba facade. It's like we're playing Super Smash Bros with all these new champions

[@lev3271]

@@adrianbunea2006 thank you for understanding,but u can watch old season 2,3 and see that league in those days was like an old but gold(slow, like dota gameplay)

[@adrianbunea2006]

@@lev3271 I know. I used to play since season 1. Mages were midlane, now they fucked off to bot lane to be a support because you can't be a midlaner without 1000 dashes, even top laners are better mids.

[@zMacah]

Wow i see the similarities now, i didnt know invoker at all, Riot August even said they wanted to give Hwei invisibility but they later changed it for the shield ahah

[@muammarraihan9351]

Now this is the inspired thing between games, not just straight up copy paste but called it an inspiration

[@muammarraihan9351]

I'm pretty sure hwei's dmg will be just way too high for his first entry, league spells scales way too high from their items

[@spivotz]

I wish Hwei was more invoker-esque, but alas, league as a game has alot more limitations :(

[@pokefan9000]

great video, voice editing and engaging, keep it up

[@TZAR_POTATO]

Will do!

[@cringof5879]

hwei is the 5$ walmart invoker edit" want to have a seizure go check out the first invoker when it got released it was so op and complicated it just lasted 1 or 2 patches lol

[@NevenSrb7]

Are you talking way back in Wc3? When the order of the orbs was important too like "QEQ" is not the same as "QQE", unlike now? And he had like over 20 spells *Edit 27 spells exactly... Insane

[@cringof5879]

@@NevenSrb7 yes the first patch they released him he had some mad spells.multiple shields that absorbed dmg and dealt dmg at the same time(aura not retrebution) he had 2 diffrent tornados and a targeted blink that would send you behind the enemy like riki's blink

[@NevenSrb7]

@@cringof5879The only problem was you could select only 1 spell (1 slot), and you had a 12 second cooldown on invoke. Effectively 2-3 spells cast in a fight.

[@ihsangumilar501]

Invoker is about cast the right spell at the right moment, it is not about combo. So i think riot approach to encourage player to do combo is wrong. It will make it play like dinasty warrior because all is about speed. Playing Invoker is about precision and tempo, it feels like playing music, so it feels more satisfiying

[@TZAR_POTATO]

But the thing is, Invoker can pull up the right spell at any time. Hwei has to wait 16 seconds, if he just used that element.

[@ihsangumilar501]

@@TZAR_POTATO the old invoker actually has 9s of cooldown for his ulti (invoke) so player has to use only 3 spells at most before he get his aghanim. Maybe Hwei is at the same period as the old invo, so you are right he is still beta 😂

[@kyyura]

Love it dude❤❤❤,i think you can make another comparison pudge between hero with the same model in another MOBA/RTS like this

[@Demilich23]

lmao the plot twist of the reagents having cooldowns at least the spells look great

[@aruy1639]

Outer Wilds Music Pog!

[@ags8507]

Hwei givest he illusion of "having a tool for every ocassion" but it will just will be down to just spam QQ or QW + EE with the ocasional WE over and over during lanning phase. Something similar happened when jayce was released, it blew everyones minds that he had 6 spells, but nowadays its just stay in cannon mode forever and spam Q/EQ and go hammer to finish off or disengage

[@TZAR_POTATO]

A great comparison!

[@mr.shreddergaming1940]

A pretty cool Hwei combo that i found for myself was WE R EW QW. You basically give yourself the orbs for bonus damage, then hit the ult, the ult slows the target so that the root hits because they cant run out and then they should be low enough to get executed by the empowered Thunderbolt.

[@TZAR_POTATO]

Landing that ult without setup is a pain though.

[@mr.shreddergaming1940]

@@TZAR_POTATO The bigger pain for me right now is my 190 ping if I'm being honest. I need to get Hwei off the PBE so i can become a master of the Arts.

[@tristancarter4324]

@@mr.shreddergaming1940 this me and my friend in Cali played and it's fact I know way more but lose cause it's my 160 ping versus his 35-60 at most

[@mimikbaeon4336]

One more thing of Invokers kit to take into account: his spells stats are bound to lvl of his orb so you cant possibly lvlup your dmg path And have reliable spell lifesteal or a lot of cdr for this spell in a early/mid game.

[@Arksimon2k]

Nice comparison video!

[@TZAR_POTATO]

Thanks! Check the others out too ;)

[@chabri2000]

With this, we get closer to the dream of having a goblin techies in League

[@TZAR_POTATO]

Teemo exists.

[@chabri2000]

@@TZAR_POTATO yeah, but it's not the same. You can't stack them

[@Lastofhiskind-00]

​​@@chabri2000 you can't stack techies mines either since the 7.33 update. Techies change sucks. I loved stacking the mines. 😢

[@okupant880]

Ultimate could have a debuff placed on enemies that makes it so that for each *appropriate* (i don't play LoL so I don't know much about hp values there) amount of damage done to a debuffed enemy it lowers the cooldown time by like 1-1.5 second. And on killing a debuffed enemy cds get a lowered by 3 seconds. Could be really fun trying to time the spells used on non debuffed targets so you dont accidentally waste them, while having a spell ready to lower cds with a debuffed enemy. The debuffed enemy would have a choice between leaving the fight making Hwei weaker, but making it a 4 v 5 or staying and risking the mages full potential.

[@Maleficarum999]

I'm glad LOL devs were kind enough to give manifested form to Injoker meme a.k.a Hwei.

[@sufferlogan]

Alright if we are talking about arsenal mages then you need to look up the runemaster from last epoch. Essentially imagine invoker, but the order of the orbs matter. One of the most fun designs for an arpg

[@TZAR_POTATO]

So, old Invoker with 27 spells, then? Same thing?

[@sufferlogan]

@@TZAR_POTATO i think its technically 40? cause there are spells with only 1 or 2 runes

[@WoobertAIO]

@@sufferlogan Jesus Fucking Christ

[@judah6068]

Comparing these two heroes makes league look so boring by comparison

[@bobbobby475]

Hwei still has basically just 3 abilities because he can only cast on CD. Invoker has his max all the time Hwei is diet invoker lol

[@TZAR_POTATO]

Yup

[@Tw1s7]

I predict unless changed, the abilities that will be most popular/used are: Q>Q - Q>E (this is the best one) - W>Q - W>E (mostly for mid) - E>Q (mostly for support) - E>E and the Ulti. That's it.

[@TZAR_POTATO]

Totally agree seeing this happen, which again reinforces my idea that he's just a 6 spell guy not a 10 spell guy

[@Tw1s7]

@@TZAR_POTATO Pretty much, yup

[@AspectPL]

If Hwei had separate cooldowns, he would be impossible to balance in League. These spells are made with clearly different situations in mind and I think that most of them have a niche they fulfil. QQ - short ranged easy nuke, QW - long ranged execute, QE - waveclear and wombo combo with CC, etc.

[@sirpatwick537]

i think he needs his ult changed to be like a mini refresher so he can spam a bit but i feel thats too busted for league.

[@TZAR_POTATO]

Not a bad idea, there are champs with mini refreshers already so why not?

[@vinicius8327]

That's their fault for giving him way too much damage. Invoker is balanced because he only has two damage spells and sunstrike takes a lot of skill to hit in combos

[@Tiagocf2]

pretty nice ideai tbh

[@nugger]

Yeah, can't have shit in league

[@TZAR_POTATO]

:( @@nugger

[@bluebearie7230]

This reminds me of the Legacy Invoker where each combination is segmented by different spell sequences. for example qqe qeq eqq are all different spells they had to nerf this down to keep our sanity

[@Igor369]

Invoker - a goddamn swiss army knife that has 9 highly distinct abilities to test your skill through proper choices Hwei - uhhhhhhh 7 nukes and 2 garbage utility spells uhhhhhh Now I regret not starting with Dota 2 even more.

[@danielmartinez3994]

Hwei's QE is way too good from what I played. It's usually the best even for single target damage. QW on the other hand is too situational, because its execute damage is only applied if the enemy is isolated or stunned, on top of being hard to land because of the huge delay. The delay is perfectly fine, but it should always be rewarding to land IMO. QQ is just kinda boring.

[@loringx7297]

Look at the history of the first invoker, who has 27 skills. They were quite similar to Hwie compared to invokers today. In contrast to the earlier invoker with 27 skills, who was more mechanical in nature and could kill all 5 enemies on your own without assistance, He possesses every buff and disable you could ask for.

[@colpelvole3275]

When qqq qqw qwq wqq give you 4 different spells

[@DRX_Amade]

4:42 For the non Dota players who saw this and think that it's broken, just here to clarify some things. This is only possible with his Aghanim, which is an expensive item, and also a Refresher Orb, that is also expensive. This skill with Aghanim generates two "projectiles" for each enemy (global), so if there are 5 enemies at the same spot, it will take close to 50~70% of HP, and with a refresher orb, he can just reset the cooldown and use it again.

[@hazeclarke1938]

Thank you, I'm not the only one thinking that most people play hwei as 4-5 spells champion rather than 10

[@TZAR_POTATO]

Yeah, I feel the same way!

[@Xenochetemist]

The truth is In League, cooldown is way too busted. You test this with zero item purchased, so it didn't show. With enough ability haste in League, every random shit you throw out will be combos. And they said their champions "didn't have overloaded kit". It'll be overwhelming, but would be more fun when you get used to it. Cooldown in Dota works different, you can't expect a full minute skill to be thrown every five seconds. It'll be really easy to make combos in League, some skills have lower cooldown so they can spam it to farm/solo farm to get to the every skills fast cooldown point. Which doesn't happen as often in Dota. Remember Irelia or Yasuo with a vampire scepter can clear infinite waves of minion. Can't do it that easily in Dota. Cooldown, damage outputs and resources are different. Personally I'd like an arsenal mage that will have an ultimate ability that so powerful, like a level 20 spell that would drain all of his life force, eventually killing him but have a tremendous impact on the others, surrounding and the whole game.

[@teardrops4292]

man i miss playing invoker... it has been a decade or so since i last played dota.

[@parham1023]

Spam Q for nuke...isnt this just like 90 percent of the heroes in LoL?

[@TZAR_POTATO]

What i mean is, he will just be another generic League mage.

[@parham1023]

@TZAR_POTATO yup. I think Riot is scared of experimenting and going out of their comfort zone

[@hrpang]

Man, this piano tutorial is really good

[@TZAR_POTATO]

hehe

[@m4kund1]

Invoker mains trive now. I half transitioned to lol after techies got removed :)))). Now my other main is in lol too. Hell yeah

[@JohnMichealTriana]

RUBICK BE LIKE IM GONNA PUT SOME DIRT IN YOUR'E EYE 😂😂

[@giorgioeep8752]

I also feel like it's a hard comparison to make, because as far as i know, in dota there is just much more stuff going on for alla champions, a kit like invoker's in league would be beyond broken compared to the general power level of champions. So yeah, of course it does more stuff, but it does so in a completely different game environment.

[@Amrani97]

You probably dont play it but Smite also has an arsenal mage (Merlin). Just thought I'd point it out as you said Invoker was the only one before Hwei

[@TZAR_POTATO]

Didn't I say "Popular MOBAs"? OOOOOOHHHHHHH!!!!!

[@Amrani97]

@@TZAR_POTATO :(

[@VulgarBearSteak]

Really? How's he? I love Smite but dropped it cause it was dying off so hard years ago. It was the coolest thing ever. There wasn't a Merlin when I was still playing

[@Garchomp10501]

Great video i have been evoker otp for years and excited to see something similar in league but as you said it just gonna be one ability spam and wait for your nuke

[@ExequielGLucero]

Leage of legend is the tutorial for dota 2

[@bulletcola7890]

Not really? Considering that they play quite differently from eachother in terms of how you play around the characters and sort of its sense of pacing.

[@user-c3jdf9lylzse]

and dota is just league in slow motion

[@shadowraze97]

@@user-c3jdf9lylzse league is dota made on MS Paint without turn rate , high ground/cliffs and day/night cycle + map is 2x smaller