The BIG BOY needs a DIESEL HELPER? Why?

[@msb3175]

I agree with you 100%. As a Conductor I piloted 844 over Donner pass in 2012. There were a number of people that argued the need for the diesel helpers on various KZbin videos. After a year I finally chimed in and explained the real world to them. My main point beyond the physical needs was that there is no reason to work a one of a kind (so to speak) essentially hand built piece of history any harder than needed. Burn up the modern units that are in the hundreds so the old horse can continue to make the show.

[@jacknedry3925]

But those old Loco's were MEANT to work, that's what they do best.

[@ronlina.1737]

@@jacknedry3925 While that is what they were made to do, it's not what it's doing anymore. Now it's a living history piece, which means being nice to it so we can continue to have it and see it for many years to come.

[@nickjames9764]

@@jacknedry3925 u are right ha 844 killing human big boy pulling a twain

[@westitzer]

Thanks for the info on having the diesel in tow behind the big boy. I had always thought that it was there to provide modern electricity to the passenger cars as well as help the steam engine not work so hard over the hills.

[@ngtflyer]

I've also read that the diesel is there because the FRA wants it there, just in case the steam loco experiences some kind of failure, the diesel can be used to keep the train moving.

[@something2424]

A good way to explain it to non-train people who might not want all the detail is "the desiel helps out so the steam locomotive doesn't wear out, the big boy is more than capable, but we want it to remain capable for a long time"

[@hawkdsl]

which is nonsense.

[@phoenixrising4573]

@@hawkdsl Not in the least.

[@hawkdsl]

@@phoenixrising4573 again, multiple interviews with UP, the diesel is only there for electric power and dynamic braking. There is no need to baby the steamers, as UP has a dedicated steam shop.

[@Jcus10iscool]

@@hawkdsl we’ll what if the big boy ran out of fuel or water what would you do than?

[@zackbobby5550]

@hawkdsl Or if the steam engine had an issue the diesel could limp the train to the nearest spot out of the way so the mainline could stay operational.

[@jessegruber8690]

The big boy in fact did not need a diesel helper, he just refused to leave it sitting there lonely in the yard and took it with him

[@rdallas81]

I like your answer the best. I'm thumbing up this comment. No engine should walk the rail life alone. Locomotives Lives Matter, bruh.

[@jessegruber8690]

@@rdallas81 i read somewhere that they applied some of the diesel's braking power uphill " for fun" and he gained speed lmao so aside from the help in braking its hilarious to hear people go but it needed a helper, like nah big boy needed some young engine to roll his eyes as he was forced to listen to the old timers story's haha

[@rdallas81]

@@jessegruber8690 Right!

[@trevaperes5343]

yep, but times have changed. Needs water along the track!

[@Wingnut353]

I think it actually doesn't now.. in fact its just there in case, and it has its own steam power generators and compressors now too it appears they installed them sometime last year.

[@rescue270]

I do remember a time some years ago where a breakdown of the diesel engines resulted in the Challenger being commandeered to pull a 143- car container train. The train was going to Cheyenne, and since the Challenger was already going there, anyway, the crews just coupled it up to the freight train and away they went. It did the job with no trouble and no diesel, so, yes, these locomotives are still quite capable of pulling a huge load. It's just a lot less expensive with diesels.

[@eva.cassidy]

I think the boss at APL wanted to have the stacked train pulled by a steam engine. There's a story about that somewhere...

[@rescue270]

@@eva.cassidy The story I heard was that the yard boss walked up to the Challenger crew and said something like "Hey, can I borrow your locomotive?" The Challenger crew said something like "Hell, yeah!" and the deal was done.

[@phoenixrising4573]

@@eva.cassidy Didn't on of the diesel units experience a major electrical failure and small fire before they hooked up?

[@rescue270]

@@phoenixrising4573 Something like that, yeah...

[@markantony3875]

It was a scheduled photo shoot request by APL. Nothing broke down unexpectedly. For the famous shot of it cresting Archer Hill, what they did was get it up to 50 mph on the downgrade west of Cheyenne and used the trains momentum to get it up and over the shorter Archer Hill located east of Cheyenne. In other words, it was a carefully planned event.

[@jacebeleren9290]

Electrician here. Thanks for referring to electrical piping as conduit. Always nice to hear someone use proper terminology, especially someone who's not necessarily in a specific trade

[@jimskywaker4345]

modded minecraft taught me it was called that

[@NeonNijahn]

What do people normally say?

[@jacebeleren9290]

@@NeonNijahn usually pipe

[@andreweppink4498]

Sewer pipe

[@jacebeleren9290]

@@andreweppink4498 -_-

[@pmahaffey170A]

This particular video really hit home with me. I fly a World War Two C-47 airplane. Everything you said about no spares and no mechanics familiar with the care and feeding of a piece of vintage machinery is spot on. We fly the plane and then we work on it. People don’t understand that one small gasket, bushing, bearing, tire, oring can break you down for hours, days, weeks at a time. Thank you for this video

[@shereesmazik5030]

Antique car world is similar- scrounge for parts and accept what you get .

[@rescue270]

I still work on DC-3s occasionally. T6s, Stearnans, a DC-6 awhile back but they're all nearly gone now. I'm a radial engine mechanic, but mostly I work on smaller flat engines these days.

[@danmanthe9335]

Saw a B17 when I was younger and there was a team of mechanics who had a cylinder off right on the tarmac. Hadn't thought of that in years but it makes sense that you gotta do what you gotta do with old machinery like that

[@rescue270]

@danmanthe9335 I work like that all the time. Out of the back of my truck. Most small General Aviation aircraft were built in the 1960s and 1970s.

[@Tkmined]

Our museum has our own C-47. D-day vet too! I agree. We will run her for a week, do an inspection, perform maintenance, then back out she goes! By the time winter layup comes around, it's all work. Engines and props off, oil pans out, everything is disassembled. The engines only run for a couple hundred hours before rebuild, so keeping that time low is important.

[@Hyce777]

I saw a lot of comments on the thumbnail from the ES&D train crew that folks thought it was for Head End Power (HEP) for the train - I didn't touch on that at all in this video as it's not for UP! The UP diesels don't have a HEP system which is entirely separate from the diesel engine itself. If you had an Amtrak engine behind though, that would do it! Also, a lot of folks are saying that they "don't work the engine at all": kzbin.info/www/bejne/rJDFYWOZmLCki7c You'll note the diesel is at idle, in this clip. 3 years of listening to 30-50 EMD's at my shop at Interbay and you recognize the throttle notches quite quickly...

[@JaredJanhsen]

Isn't there another car in the excursion consist that provides HEP for the train? I paid close attention once and looked up the car (can't remember the number) It was a converted steam car that now provides HEP.

[@STIX.TheMachine]

Can confirm, Large Lad consist had one or two dedicated generator cars in the consist.

[@zachman1394]

this reaffirms what I had heard and learned myself. I knew braking was a significant factor in a diesel helper because old school brake rigging like the kind on those old passenger cars or the massive brake shoes on the large lad proper do not grow on trees and when you wear them the steam crew is the crew who has to fix them. the thing about the sand getting into parts and ruining them was new to me. I love your videos because they are practical and informative from an operations side of view not just railfan speculation and guesswork.

[@machinerygaming40]

Thank you! Many people fail to consider that regular service freight locomotives haven’t had steam generators/ HEP for many decades.

[@The_New_IKB]

If you want to hear and see some steam at tonnage and at speed I present you with this, half of them don't even have diesels on the back!!! kzbin.info/www/bejne/hWXGZYajobtjY9E

[@ClearTrackSpeed]

It’s amazing that 4014 is running at all. I’ll take it no matter what’s running behind it. Thanks for sharing hyce

[@bobsmith2637]

Cost and time issues aside, anyone who's ever had to wrestle around cast-iron brake shoes by hand can well appreciate the desire to minimize the number of times you have to change them.

[@Hyce777]

Damn straight.

[@JeanLucCaptain]

kinda reminding me of how the USS Iowa had a gun explosion from using 20 year old powder charges and barrels because those things where not made in BATTLESHIP size anymore

[@goldenhide]

​@Jean_LucLikeTheCaptain Though contributing factors, I'm pretty sure the lack of safety on the rammer was ruled the cause through all the investigations (though the initial claimed it was a purposeful overramming to detonate a sabotage device when they scapegoated Hartwig). It was actually found the trim charges attached to the bags in the mid-80s were the real initiators of deflagration and igniting the black powder initiator charges on the bags which would set the main charges off.

[@jackreisewitz6632]

Used to work in a gray cast iron foundary that cast the brake shoes for the trains. I guarantee the ones for the locomotives were not light !! One time, the brake castings came out harder than the steel wheels, and the wheels were wearing away rather than the brake pads.... the railroad was not happy !!!

[@jamesd6801]

I got to talk to the engineer of the Big Boy when it came through El Paso, and they said it is mostly for starting and breaking reliability improvement. They said the steamer does 80-90% of the work.

[@rearspeaker6364]

exactly, cant imagine 4014 with dynamic braking blisters on her sides!

[@daemosblack]

Doesn't that mean that in a way the diesel is essentially acting akin to the caboose

[@jamesd6801]

@@daemosblack pretty much!

[@msheaver]

As an armchair railfan, I had those same questions, and I am very surprised and grateful for your deep dive into it!

[@rynait]

as an armchair railfan, I knew B & O has historic archives and those useful nuggets of information way before UP overhauled their challenger locomotive.

[@92506Neighborhood]

About 20 years ago I was on a business trip to go to Hermiston Oregon. I was to meet a guy named Gary Cooper (he passed away in 2020). He was the head communications person at the Union Pacific RR in Hermiston, OR. Once I arrived at the railroad, I remember the excitement that Gary had. We got into one of the UP trucks and speed through the yard at what seemed like 80 MPH. This was on dirt roads. When we got to our destination, the UP Big Boy was traveling down the tracks though the yard. It was a surprise to me. My arrival was in perfect timing that allowed me to see this big steam train travel through the yard. WOW, what a train that was! Thank you for your video on why the UP Big Boy needs a diesel helper. I remember seeing the diesel helper.

[@4dads823]

I still remember something that Ed said after the first couple of runs with Big Boy, specifically about the brake shoes, and you hit the nail on the head in that it is not only the difficulty and time in maintaining them, but the massive cost, IIRC the number quoted for a SET of shoes for BB was in the order of $30K+.

[@Hyce777]

I'd believe that any day of the week, shoes for our engines aren't cheap either.

[@Leatherface123.]

Yeah when you have brakes on a 132’ tube that can weighs the equivalent of a medium 1 story brick building They will be expensive and massive The cost to machine parts like that is enough to make someone break down crying and never turn up again

[@coalcountry6795]

@@Leatherface123. not only that, but for something that is a public relations tool, and isn’t making a profit either… I’ve seen some people on FB mention how UP is a big corporation that can shell out the money for that, no problem! What they forget is, a company’s purpose is to make money. The fact we have a Class 1 who fully restores an articulated engine and runs it on its line, at what I imagine is a financial loss, surely, for a bunch of idiots who just want to see the steam train, is a miracle enough as it is! So the people, who the vast majority have not/will not ever give UP a dime, demanding them to waste even more money than they are currently, is quite insane to me.

[@Mishn0]

@@coalcountry6795 What percent of UP share-holders are "foamers"? How quick would they be to throw UP execs out if they thought they were jeopardizing their investments in UP on frivolities like running an ancient steam train?

[@chuckmiller5763]

@@coalcountry6795 You get it. I hear this all the time, I use the example of Walmart, if they gave just a $2.00 raise to ALL employees, they would not make a dime, so why bother staying in business. You can look up Walmart's prophets, look up how many employees they have, and do the math. They would be bankrupt over that $2.00 an hour raise. Same goes for UP.

[@paulholmes1303]

Having been around steam for many years of my youth (I'm 68) living a few miles from the Edaville train in Carver, Mass (hearing the whistle everyday!), well aware of the logistics of the Steam system. Out West, you do see the odd water tower by the tracks but you are very on point with the logistic pipelines that were eliminated/lost when diesel was adopted. Water was always the limiting factor for steam, and if we had never retired steam, we would be dealing with supply chain delays through the odd drought years more than anything else. After a few years stationed in England, had a chance to see an old water track (dry of course) used to replenish the Steam Expresses from London to Edinburgh. Trains could fill their tenders at speed with scoops, and reports were the water spray halo as it raced down the track was something to behold. Trying to fill a Big Boy with that system would take miles of flat trough. Thank You for your instruction and information, Sir!!!!!

[@FortunaFortesJuvat]

With British steam railroading, the challenge was always the small British loading gauge- you needed locomotives that were smaller than 73' long (including tender), 13' 2" high, and in many cases 21t axle loading to cope with tight curves, light rail, and Victorian bridges. Track pans, compounding, top quality Welsh steam coal were all part of the equation!

[@typrus6377]

I will NEVER forget watching 4014 build steam, prep, and depart on that cold morning with 4141, just down the road from the library. I can still feel that whistle in my chest. To add, the night before, after they rolled in for the overnight, Ed talked to me and my then-5-year-old son, for well over a half hour. That man is a real class act.

[@justat1149]

I caught her outside Chester IL in August of 2021. I was roughly 8ft from her side at a level crossing outside town. That three chime is burned into my soul lol

[@typrus6377]

@Just a T114 My grandpa used to have 2 layouts in his basement, an 8x8 for the N and HO, and a 16x8 for the O guage. His prized Loco was a Lionel steamer, a 700e Hudson that he scraped and saved for in 1940. After the war he got his Super Chiefs (he had 3).... He used to talk about how he was sad he never got to see a Big Boy in action. He would wax poetic about seeing the older steamers in his youth, but always wanted to see "one of those big UP locos". I'm man enough to admit I cried the day I saw 4014 pull away. Wished Pop could've been there with me for it.

[@wwtf7180]

I met Ed in Duluth Minnesota at the DNE 28 kick off. I was part of the crew. We talked for an hour about the restoration. He is a very knowledgeable man when it comes to steam. Yes he is a class act.

[@MainlineThruTheRockies]

It’s whistle really punches you in the chest man it’s amazing

[@nicoletorcolini5316]

Hey, no fair! In October 2019, I only got to talk to Ed for about two minutes.

[@juliatarrel1674]

Our local shops are within easy walking distance of a train line. A few months ago, I heard the distinctive sound of a steam whistle. My friend next to me did too. And we looked at the train line, and wow! There was a steam engine pulling a bunch of cars. Neither of us paid attention to the cars. We were too busy watching the engine. Beautiful.

[@jessdatheturdle6602]

Ed having to plan everything just to have 4014 run on the mainline is very true, in 2002 and 2012, ATSF 3751 went on an excursion to the GCRY. While not much info was given on how they planned the excursions, it took 3 YEARS of planning for an excursion that took about a week. That shows how much stuff goes on behind the scenes just for our entertainment that really only lasts from a couple hours to a few weeks. Really respect their work and what they do to keep a piece of history alive.

[@blackbirdgaming8147]

This is a really good point. Hopefully SBRHS works on something similar for the future, so the public can experience the magic of the world’s oldest surviving Northern in operation.

[@DonnaLee4]

Really awesome to hear you give my big brother Ed the respect he deserves! Also, as his little sister I had no idea how much planning and logistics that he had to do just for the Big Boy trips! My mind is blown!

[@midmichiganrr24gp9]

As a railroader it always amuses me to hear the "railfan experts" ask questions like this and give crazy answers.

[@Hyce777]

This is definitely one of those topics that people outside the industry really don't seem to understand, hence why I wanted to make this video. Same goes for anything related to PTC.... lol

[@dangeary2134]

Well said, from both of you. I’m a weird sort, so they say, and I do a lot of research. I agree that having a diesel to save fuel for the steamer is a good idea. So, from the guy who has studied the history, and now works in the modern day… The Big Boy can’t just be shut down in the middle of a trip, that would damage the main cylinders in short order. Brakes, they would be hard to find these days. Shoes would have to be fabricated at a high cost for the application, because the run would be so small, not to mention having to be upgraded with modern materials. Fuel, well, the conversion to burning oil helps to transport and deliver as opposed to trying to get coal to who knows where these days, and then load it… Water, not only would a city supply be a bit taxed in some smaller towns, it also has to be tested, and the additives put in. Judging from the extra tenders, I would say that there is at least 20,000 gallons behind the old boy. Big Boy locomotives never pulled passenger, so there is no electric or steam to supply those cars with. The sand makes a mess, it gets crushed to dust, and blow everywhere… I would love to see the engineer getting out with an oil can to add a bit of lube to bearings during a water or fuel stop! PTC has been used on steamers in the past, picking up a signal from the rails. They still send signals through rails these days. Put a transistor AM radio set where there is no station near a mainline rail and the signal becomes audible, but don’t trespass where you shouldn’t be.

[@blackbirdgaming8147]

@@dangeary2134 At least one Big Boy actually *did* pull passenger trains. 4005 was fitted with steam heat to pull troop trains, and it still has the steam heat controls in the cab.

[@ralfie8801]

As far as I know, the brake shoes are not modern, they’re still using the same cast iron shoes they’ve always used. The difference is they’re not ordering thousands at a time, it’s just a couple hundred probably, if that. They’re bound to be pretty heavy for a machinist to hang one when it’s time to change it too. I’ve changed a few normal sized cast iron shoes on some SW 1500 switchers when I first went to work on the RR and they were pretty heavy and had 4 shoes per axle on units with double clasping brake shoes, but then we went to composition shoes on everything, and now it’s been 10+ years since I’ve seen an SW 1500 or even an MP 15 on the property. They’re building trains in our yard using SD 40-2’s and slugs made from SD 40 and SD 38 locomotives now.

[@objuan6]

I was a steam propulsion engineer, on USN AircraftCarrier, during SE Asian war. The blend of hot metal,steam, and hot oil smell, will transport one right back to 19 yrs old.

[@steamfan4014]

I was a fireman and an oiler for the Denver and Rio Grande #340 at Knott's Berry Farm in California for 4 months and I understand what it takes keep that locomotive well lubricated. I can only imagine what it would take to keep Big Boy lubricated. I've never had to change brake shoes on 340, but I imagine it's quite a task. It's smart of UP to have the diesel assist with braking as well as "fuel efficiency" for the train, especially over long distances as you said. It's still so nice that Big Boy is being taken care of and that Ed Dickens is a very mindful person in the aspect of care for the locomotive as well as planning trips and being prepared for anything. Thank you for this informative video. I too have wondered why the diesel was back there and this video definitely answered my question

[@1toonhead]

What a awesome way of explaining it. It does make pure sense. Keeping a old steam engine is not a easy task, especially when its one of the biggest in the world.

[@colesgarage666]

Seeing the Big Boy in person is the sole reason why I've returned to having interest in trains and rail fanning at the age of 35. I'm from south of Dallas, Tx and got to see it back in August, 2021 in Fort Worth and followed it the next day for about a 100 miles. It was a life changing experience lol

[@ralfie8801]

I followed it also, I caught it in Corsicana and chased it to Groesbeck, got videos of one side at Angus and the other side in Groesbeck. It was a fun day, even in the heavy thunderstorm that let up just about 5 minutes before it got to my location a little north of Groesbeck.

[@Ratkill9000]

I'm just 5 years younger and yeah, seeing Big Boy just a couple years ago when it came through Fremont, NE and Omaha, it really sparked my interest in trains

[@torrvest]

Im not a train person but i am from omaha and i love seeing our big boy when you come in from iowa

[@corpsimmons575]

Fun fact, British trains also use freight locomotives to help the train along when doing charters. They are usually “Top and Tailed” aka the charter train leads with the diesel trailing. This is so that the charter can easily reverse at termini and it acts as a rescue locomotive if the chartered one fails.

[@davidhewson8605]

Enthusiasm is route to Heaven. You've got it coal spades !. Big boy , rock and roll. Thanks. Dave

[@CZpersi]

Whenever there are these nostalgic trains with a steam locomotive in my country (Czechia), they also include some historical diesel engine. Some of these older diesel engines are just as famous as the steam ones, making it a double show for the fans.

[@phillyphakename1255]

When I went on one as a kid, the steam train was in heavy maintenance, so we only got the diesel. I was sad. Now when I see that old 1958 diesel, it I am amazed by it!

[@Ash007YT]

Everyone always asks why BIG BOY? But no one asks HOW is BIG BOY!!!!

[@thebfsniper1869]

Wait a minute, Ash is a train nerd also... interesting

[@adem9599]

How big is the boy?

[@MartyGramRC]

I was not expecting such a well thought out, and explained video. To me, a lot of the things you mentioned are obvious, but there were quite a few points I had no clue of, or didn’t even think about. An exceptional video - thank you!

[@N2NDF]

I have to give a lot of credit to UP and the steam team to bring back and maintain these old but beautiful pieces of history! To bad there weren't more saved spec sheet for everything from the past. It would be cool to have a company willing to bring back the parts sheds of companies from yesteryear

[@rynait]

it is saved. B & O is repository of all of that information. there was 1 video made during challenger overhaul. UP sometime has the information otherwise goes to museum to get them. it was Ed's job to gather those information. He is fortunate that Big Boy locomotive mostly used same tooling process as Challenger, thus can use same source of spec sheets.

[@rearspeaker6364]

@@rynait now the steam repositories of information need to be digitized to save it in case of a fire at such repositories.

[@ksaves2401]

Excellent explanation on the issue I've wondered about. Maternal grandpa was an engineer in the steam age and transitioned to diesels. Hated 'em as he said the early diesels shook out one's guts. Preferred steam

[@RubyandtheEmeralds]

Top gear did a race a few years ago with a 1960s car and motorbike against a 2008 steam train (based off a 1940s steam train) and the 2 biggest factors that lead to the train not winning was the lack of water trays on the east coast mainline and the train hadn't been cleared for speeds over 75mph at the time of the race.

[@rearspeaker6364]

one of the many favorites of old top gear, esp. Jeremy at the end covered in soot a bit.

[@ostlandr]

First time the NY Central tried out the water trays, they hadn't added enough vents to the tender. This resulted in the tender exploding. You could get from NYC to Chicago faster by rail in 1899, on stick rail, with manual signals and hand-thrown switches.

[@dasy2k1]

That loco now has ETCS fitted too so that hopefully it can continue to run onto its home turf of the ECML... And in certain situations it can be permitted to run at 90mph instead of the normal 75

[@mr.iforgot3062]

Hyce is one of my best friends. We went to school together and I drive him around a lot when he's in town.

[@SweetSunrising]

This video is incredible. This is like a mandatory followup to an interview I just watched the other day of Ed explaining to a reporter how the diesel fits in. Yours is the nuts & bolts of it all, fantastic. He gave a simple explanation on the issues with the brake shoes & PTC. I’m still trying to remember how I got hooked on the Big Boy, who in turn became my gateway drug into the Steam World! Hopefully I’ll get to see the beast in person this year.

[@Green__one]

From a purely cosmetic perspective, I liked a solution that I saw a while back where a steam locomotive was accompanied by a custom diesel locomotive that looked mostly like a baggage car. You got to use the diesel for all the practical reasons you list here, but without ruining the aesthetics of the beautiful old train. I believe it was Canadian Pacific that did this, though I have no idea if they still do.

[@darknut9696]

Here in the UK the reasons are the same, but mainly due to the electronic signaling, since changing the loco systems to operate the electronic signals from the original system is a big no-no, but to me if there is a diesel loco onboard at least have it in the similar livery to the coaches not something that sticks out...I'm looking at you Flying Scotsman with a BR Blue diesel with a LMS Maroon consist of 1st class coaches

[@gigglesmurf2004]

So each section of train is a different livery? 🤨 That must look terrible. Nice that UP hasn’t really ever changed their livery. Black and yellow. The diesel blends in between the water cars and the rest of the train.

[@bapadget]

Thank you for this. When I skipped out of work to watch 4014 pull into Colton, CA, I wondered why it seemed to be idling. A bit of thought, and a realized that, cool as it is, a Big Boy isn't up to the demands of rolling into one of the busiest yards in the US. Let grandpa rest, he's earned it.

[@cameronmccreary4758]

Thank you Hyce for explaining how steam locomotives are run nowadays. 😃

[@sunnydayhobbies]

Well described. As a Mechanical engineer, I appreciate the process, which many 'civilians' don't think about.

[@brentboswell1294]

Class I railroads started requiring a diesel in the consist while there was still quite a few people in the operations department who remembered steam engines. As I understand it, they were afraid of a novice steam engineer running the engine out of steam, and fouling the main line for 30 minutes while building steam up again

[@the_retag]

Much worse and far easier in iems of no water towers would be running the tender dry. Atöeast droppig the fire on an oilburner is as easy as turning the fuel valve shut, but until a tankerload of water or another engine shows up a steamer with no watee isnt going anywhere

[@LaAwesomeK]

As a fellow foamer...I approve of this video! Thank you @hyce!!! BTW, I have seen 4014 Big Boy in person, have photos, and videos. We chased it through Utah into Nevada and Arizona. Ed and his team are amazing to say the least. I have a new found appreciation for the logistics in the video. I made my own list before your video of what I thought it would contain. I got more than 50% but lacked many you had. I did have some others that may have been more obvious or not mentioned for one reason ro another. Still...great content, great video, and loads of respect for what you are doing.

[@jonelyackett]

I absolutely love your Band comparison, as a guitarist in a band myself, having to transport everything myself, being the one to set the rest of the band up, its tough and its stressful and it can really take the fun out of things. That all being said, what Ed and his team do really are amazing, considering that any part probably weighs as much as a full amp stack and then some.

[@ralfie8801]

I work in a large locomotive shop, there aren’t a lot of things we do to the engines or alternators that can be done without a crane or other lifting device. Ed and his crew don’t have the advantage of a crane while on a trip, short of renting a crane, at best, they could get an MOW mechanic to bring his truck so they could use the auto crane or hydraulic jacks to perform some smaller tasks that can’t be done by hand or with chain hoists.

[@metroredline]

Thanks for breaking it down! It made me appreciate the operation even more. I got to see 4014 in October 2019 at UP West Colton Yard in California. It's quite amazing to see in person. Standing close to the loco, you also feel the heat of the steam and even feel the water from the condensed steam rain down on you. So you're gonna get wet! And to hear the huge whistle blow...wow. It's a multi-sensory experience.

[@b43xoit]

Also, you hear the whine of the generator and its turbine.

[@MrNeterix]

Thank you Hyce, you have solved many questions that Google would given me crappy answers for. Hope all is well!

[@TheBeeMan1994]

On a question like that, google is only as smart as the unaware forums are! Hyce is a great teacher!

[@williamdoom4157]

There was a 611 steaming in I know wife 611

[@JP-su8bp]

Solid info at the proper level for laymen. Thanks.

[@helmutsandner6964]

Excellent explanation about this Diesel locomotive running with steam locomotive excursions. As a locomotive engineer I agree with your presentation and description.

[@STIX.TheMachine]

Only partway in, but on the bit about coordinating fuel loading, 4014 actually has a dedicated fuel tanker that does nothing but follow the steam crew around for fuelling at overnight stops. I have a picture of 4014 and the fuelling rig from the last time she passed through TX, I'll send it to you in a bit.

[@Stealthschannel]

Yes there is a fueling rig that fallows the locomotive, but it only holds so much fuel.

[@scotcoon1186]

@@Stealthschannel good thing about burning what us essentially filtered waste oil from the diesel fleet, they can get it anywhere they have a service facility, and a small pump is all that's needed to move it to the tender.

[@andrewweldy7508]

The 4014 is a truly impressive piece of machinery. I got to go into the cab of it about twelve years ago when it was still sitting at the Rail Giants museum in Pomona California. A couple years later I heard the news that it was going to be restored by the Union Pacific Railroad and while I was not able to be in Pomona to watch it get pulled out of the fair grounds I did a few days later go and see it in person for the second time when it was on public display at the Colton Railyard. Not only that but I went like many to see it as it was leaving California to be restored and then got to see it again in October 2019 when Ed and the UP steam crew made the run from Colton to Barstow. Honestly I like steam locomotives in general.

[@cowboy_civ]

I had the chance to see 4014 on it's first run after it was completely restored at the Cheyenne, WY depot. What an amazing machine it is watching it take off was the best part.

[@Spartan375X]

I saw it that night, but they stopped in Pierce, CO and went back because of some mechanical failure. The take off in reverse was pretty cool since the steam shrouded it like a magician disappearing.

[@joebond5012]

You have absolutely answered my long running bewilderment, as to why a massive steam loco needs to have a diesel running behind it. Thank you.

[@muddynmonte]

Doyle was telling me one day that with as many guys as they have doping rods, they were running the airpumps constantly. It was getting to the point they were burning the compressor oil. Big Boys were generally greased using shop air. The diesel certainly aids in mobile facilities for providing "shop" air.

[@Hyce777]

Huh, that's a neat tidbit I didn't think about. Grease guns definitely eat a lot of air, that's for sure.

[@muddynmonte]

@@Hyce777 just don't try to run steam accessories on air and expect the same efficiency 😅😅😅

[@rearspeaker6364]

surprised, because all the tenders and 4014 have the air hoses and MU plugs to use the air from 4015's air brake system.

[@vincentconsolo5782]

I'm from Los angeles, where the big boy was stationed at Los Angeles county fairgrounds in pomona. I have been personally on that locomotive and sat in the cab in the engineer seat and climbed all over it many many times when it was on static display at the local railroad Historical society next to the fairgrounds. I remember looking out their engineers window and not even being able to see the ground or the end of the locomotive nose. I thought that was incredible and all the time that my dad and I looked at all that plumbing on the locomotive, we were both amazed how much it had of that sort of thing to make it run. My dad was even more impressed because he was a plumber , so he really appreciated that kind of thing! Thanks for your great video! I am probably one of the few people on here in KZbin that can say they've been in that locomotive unless they've been out they have been to the Los Angeles county fairgrounds I remember thinking would it be so cool to see this thing actually run someday, but thinking that it never would. It would always be on static display. But, to see it actually run again is something I thought I'd never see, but am totally excited about!

[@fsj197811]

That was pretty good and makes a lot of sense. It's also vaguely sad. I'm sure Big Boy is pulling but in my head I'm kind of seeing it as a figurehead and the diesels are doing all the actual work. I'm more into WWII aircraft and they're nice on the ground but seeing them fly is TOTALLY different. Any equipment is the same way including steam locomotives so anytime they're working it's a really GOOD thing even if they need a little help. 🙂

[@ramblingrob4693]

That makes sense

[@VhenRaTheRaptor]

Over here in NZ we brought up one of our steam locos from one end of the North Island up to the other end last year. There was a diesel hooked up behind the steam loco... but it basically was there purely as insurance. Purely to provide a safety margin on the long trip. When they ran the excursions out of Auckland they were running purely on steam. Except for the end departure from the terminus station of the heritage railways own private line. There they brought in a pair of diesel locos and a smaller tank engine steam loco to top-and-tail the passenger carriages out of the station up through the big hill and when they arrived at the other end of the private line it was time to hook the proper steam loco on.

[@andyconnrock]

Oh Hyce, another classic! Not only do I totally get the diesel/brake shoe crew analogy. But I ALL TOO WELL know the touring musician/your own roadie scenario. Heaven help me if I have to carry another 4x12 cabinet on/off stage again! lol

[@bluescrew3124]

Hyce: Marshall stack to the ceiling

[@Hyce777]

I miss playing in the band but I don't miss lugging 4x12's around lmao

[@ratheonhudson3311]

I have a lot of respect for locomotive engineers. They don't just operate the vehicle and then let mechanics maintain it. They maintain the whole thing themselves, they know it down to the bolts and what spare parts are on hand. I know some things about my car, which is small, but they know all the things about a huge locomotive that is many times their size AND is relied on by many more passengers and freight than a small car can handle. That's a huge weight on the shoulder and rails

[@Comradedevmon]

I believe I actually got to talk to Ed when the Big Boy came to Texas. The way he talked about it told me he knows that train inside and out and what it's limits are with the current times. Of course he'd love to push it to it's absolute limit but with the way the American railroad is set up they just can't realistically do that outside of a short trip and not the miles long excursions they do.

[@MS-xh7cw]

I watched a video of a British steam locomotive that they recently pushed to the limits to break 100 MPH. So these things can still handle the demands but you don’t want to do that stuff often.

[@dai2dai246]

​@@MS-xh7cwSaid locomotive is brand new (actually boiler is being renewed). If you make a new locomotive in the states, I'm sure you could too. For example that train has an actual generator, not a dynamo, has ETCS, air brakes, and various very modern improvements.

[@silvesterpeel5379]

Hello @Hyce, Your explanation of diesel engine assist is spot on. Here in Australia there is a nice steam loco R707 that has a restored vintage diesel engine fleet for its week long excursions. And another organisation Steam Rail Victoria has at times had diesel assisted trains.

[@everettthepetractionguy4222]

I really appreciate the way you explain things here. Your explanations are GREAT! 👍😉 I've known for sometime that steam locomotives needed Diesel-Electrics as helpers. But, you gave more insights about that in this very interesting video. I truly enjoyed this episode, professor Hyce! Thanks! 😁

[@Niqqilynx]

Honestly getting to help the crew start up and get that monster moving a couple years back at my old job was super cool. So learning a little more details about what I got to watch them doing is awesome

[@Naviss]

Ed and the Steam Team, are all super stars to me. And keeping the BigBoy in the best shape possible, to last as long as possible is by far a better choice than to just pull heavy tonnage for a photo opt. We all know what the BigBoy's are capable of! Tons of videos, seeing them working hard in years past. The BigBoy could do it back then, and it still can just as easily today.

[@catherinehollabaugh1217]

Thank you so very much for the insights in your video. I inherited an appreciation of steam locomotives from my dad as a kid (I'm now 68). I hope you've been able to see Big Boy in person. They arrived late in Terrell, TX this week (8pm vs 4pm due to another trains issues). Even with the limited lighting, it was still impressive. I could remember my Dad's explanation from decades ago "a steam locomotive is like a living thing"". Thank you again for helping keep steam locomotives a living history.

[@HoundOfBaskerville]

A point you missed is that some railroads don’t allow steam power, out here in Michigan we have the real life polar express (pere Marquette 1225) it has a diesel for the points that you mentioned but also to push it through towns or on other companies rails that have restrictions on steam power as well as to tow it backwards to the station so they can see properly

[@eddieschwab864]

Some railroads? I don't know besides UP, but CSX does not allow steam engines on its tracks...

[@HoundOfBaskerville]

@@eddieschwab864 glc, CN, NS all allow steam power within reason

[@craigwalsh8116]

Hyce, thanks so much for the explanation about all of the reasons why Big Boy runs with a diesel in its consist. I'm not a rail guy but just a fan and am incredibly impressed that UP decided to pull Big Boy out of Pomona to show the amazing technology that propelled our world circa WW2. Growing up in SoCal and enjoying the LA County fair, one of my very favorite activities, after checking out the amazing model trains, was to go over to the static displays of steam engines at the Pomona fairgrounds. I remember standing in the cab of the 4014 many times and wondering how this behemoth sounded like. I'm so thankful for the UP in having the guts and determination to bring her back to life to give us a sense of the role these amazing machines played in our history. Much appreciation for breaking down the realities of what it takes to bring this wonderful piece of history to all of us.

[@xenowreborn]

Why do Steam engines have Diesel Helpers? Because sometimes Steam locomotives feel a little lonely, and so they bring a Friend along for the ride

[@ianlee3296]

It's definitely worth seeing the Big Boy in person. I've seen it twice when it came through Denver. The first time I met it out in Strasbourg for a short stop before it made its way to Denver for the night. The second time I picked it up from Limon and chased it back to Watkins. Chasing it was pretty fun as I was able to set up shots at different points of its trek. My favorite thing about the Big Boy is the whistle. It just sounds menacing when it goes past you.

[@gaminghub8108]

The Big Boi + Diesel helper = biggest boi

[@joshuajensen2899]

I got the chance to see it come through near Cedar Rapids, IA and asked a similar question. Another reason for the diesel I was told is to give it some resistance for smoother starting. Since the power is so high, without a load, it’d take off flying while simultaneously slipping like crazy. In addition the diesel helps reduce flange wear by allowing it to push the big engine instead of it doing it on its own. When they were in Wisconsin, they had to oil the flanges to help protect them when negotiating some tight curves.

[@rearspeaker6364]

lots of curves have become tighter since the diesel came along.

[@zendoargos4988]

It is awesome to see live steam still pounding the rails here in the US. To have that live steam be the legendary Big Boy just makes it more awesome. However they have to run things to keep the Big Boy on the rails, I'm all for it. Since it's part of the plan, I am kind of surprised that the UP hasn't modified a diesel locomotive to look like either a passenger car or an auxilliary tender so that it blends into the consist.

[@rearspeaker6364]

good question, might be hard to explain the smoke coming out the tender!!

[@Mr_Tea_Rexx]

I always was under the impression that the diesel is used for assisting in braking the cars and for the signalling / communications good to see this video explain it

[@seymoarsalvage]

This video needs to be mandatory viewing before being accepted into any Facebook train group...

[@mitchellatta9808]

Thanks for this info. It confirms my thinking as to why the diesel was there. In essence, an interface between old hardware and new electronics, and systems. Elegant, simple solution. BTW, I saw one of these, under load, near Wolf Point MT., in 1951, on the way back from a visit to Yellowstone... We pumped our arm, and the Engineer blew the whistle... I was 5 at the time 🤓👍...

[@jameshigh6481]

I get it. It's like in order to satisfy FAA requirements, you still have to install a modern ADS-B unit into your beautifully restored 1947 Cessna 140.

[@rescue270]

You can always just keep your 140 outside of Class A, B, or C airspace and Mode C veils... ...Mode C and ADS-B Out are not required in Class D, E, or G airspace.

[@jameshigh6481]

@@rescue270 You're right. But I live in the more densely populated part of Central Texas. Besides, we sold the 140. It was my dad's. He recently decided it was time to close out his log book at the age of 84.

[@barryf5479]

I saw Big Boy yesterday and asked the Union Pacific employee the same question. His answer: Dynamic braking. He mentioned the steam locomotive had no problem with power. In fact, if you search youtube, you'll find a video where Big Boy pushes a stalled freight train on the tracks in Nebraska on the trip to the West. It had zero problem pushing the freight train from a dead stop.

[@FFred-us9tw]

The incident where the 4014 pushed a stalled freight train was NOT a freight train with no working locomotives. The train in question had 2 diesels on it and ONE of them failed. The other was working fine. The train was heavier than what a single loco could start on that grade. So the 4014 helped get the train started but the working diesel was pulling at full power. I know in the world of rail buffs they want to exaggerate these incidents to make them more exciting than they are.

[@tedfisk1211]

This was a well done explanation about Big Boy, the diesel and the operational logistics. Being that a lot of the information came from Ed Dickens, folks need to accept the facts in this video. Good job, Hyce.

[@rynait]

Ed Dickens provided information on the locomotive servicing (including restorations), He did not do the excursion planning or the logistics. UP might used RAA source of information and practices. I hope you see that 3751 shows many of those elements that afford Railfan to spot and realize information value in OP's narration is one side (aka ED's version).

[@charlesperez9976]

Wow,this video is nothing short of brilliant. Sure,I was one of the people wondering about those diesel engines,and you explained it succinctly,and did so much more. I am by no means a train/locomotive expert,but as a 53 year old,I remember,as a 3 year old,gazing at the wallpaper in my bedroom,of vintage engines,right back to”The Rocket”. I’ve been to Wylam,BTW. Your knowledge is greatly appreciated. Rock on,Brother.

[@Midland1072Productions]

Well this is a welcome surprise (wasn't expecting this today), love this video and the explanation :) On the subject of the Reading and Northern, for the 2102 trips. Diesels are still involved, just not on the train itself. They follow behind as protect power just in case something happens as it did on the Oct 8th fall foliage trip.

[@blackbirdgaming8147]

It also seems that R&N uses diesels in a similar fashion to UP when 425 is running. Pretty understandable given their territory, and that 425 is on the lighter side as Pacifics go. Can’t run it in the corner and all the ceiling all the time, and I’ll bet the brake equipment on those cars is expensive.

[@mastergunnerysgt1258]

You did a great job my friend from what whet on from yester year to the day. Nice vid and I loved it.

[@skywatcherca]

Well-spoken and well researched: thank you for this video.

[@jameskoskinen6763]

Thanks for taking the time to post this video. I learned a lot and enjoyed every second of it

[@TheTrainFreak]

If I'm not mistaken, and someone else might of mentioned this, but on the 4014's first big run, it did end up running out of water somewhere between New Orleans, LA and Texarkana, AR. I know I saw some video footage of the 4014 moving at cruising speed w/ no steam coming out which was pretty odd to look at but it was being completely pushed by the diesel locomotive to the next water fill stop. - Jason

[@emmanotsostrong]

I believe it was somewhere around Nachitoches, LA on its way to Shreveport. My dad had drove down to follow it north. They had to refill it with fire trucks.

[@alexphillips4325]

I’ve seen that vid. They cracked open the drifting throttle and just shoved it with the diesel. They eventually stopped to pump water from the auxiliary tanks into the tender cistern (instead of running them all connected as one tank) and then they continued pushing to their next stop.

[@mathewbattaglia423]

Was getting excited to see Big Boy in Boise this last year, then disappointed when they cancelled the tour. Hoping something works out this year. Great video!!

[@MainlyHuman]

We're lucky in the UK to have a geographically smaller network and lots of accessible depots for steam trains. It's rare that they need to run multiple days in a row so there's plenty of time for maintenance.

[@bagnome]

Yeah, Last year Big Boy came all the way down to my home state of Louisiana, one of the farthest points on the UP network, from its home in Cheyenne, Wyoming. Then loop back around. I think the tour took a month to do.

[@mattevans4377]

Still can't run them that fast sadly. They get stuck behind the modern trains, lol.

[@barbararoberto1258]

Nice to know how hard it is to care for the big boy and awesome train, diesel train are handy as well.

[@Switchblade-sh3kx]

I am happy you made this video cause I always wonder. I assumed it was just a back up incase the loco broke down during the ride, so there wasn't dead on the line. Also it'd be fun in dream land if UP cough over the dough to make enough spares for one good long train and ride, I mean how cool would it be to see the 4014 run a good big ole freight charging for sherman Hill. But I get it, times have changed and ole boy is old and resources are not there anymore, but hey, us steam nuts can always dream it happening.

[@robertmcdonnold3038]

I watched a video of Big Boy on one of its runs a couple of years ago helping a freight that lost an engine. It was on a grade and needed help getting going. Big Boy got behind and before you could blink, it was pushing the freight up the grade with an unflinching force. It was expressive. Thanks for the good explanation. Bob

[@Johndoe-jd]

Hyce, Ed used to do interviews and q and a. If you could, would you interview him and see if you could get rare footage like with great western steam up of 844 and 4014.

[@Hyce777]

I am hoping to do precisely that!

[@b43xoit]

This vid is the most informative of any communication in any form I have read or heard in regard to the operation of steam excursions. Its value is hundreds of times that of even a good chase film.

[@burnerheinz]

The PTC part reminds me of the Krokodil having to be pulled by an Re 620 on the mainline to the Gotthard mountain line. because it was no longer able to read the trackside PTC Equipment which demands alot more computing power than the primitive System it has can manage.

[@nashorn9745]

the Krokodil does have PTC Equipment in form of the Integra-Signum and ZUB systems, but it doesn't have ETCS L2 fitted which they could fit if they wanted to the only Engine that cannot be retrofitted is the Elephant. And the Re 620 only was a ETCS L2 Engine witch probably had no electric currant on it's motors the Krokodil's don't like to be pulled as they tend to runn hot and overheat.

[@burnerheinz]

@@nashorn9745 yup if I'm remembering correctly the Krokodils have tin bearings instead of bronze ones which have the potential of melting even at their glacial speeds.

[@nashorn9745]

@@burnerheinz a few years back DB had to realize that painfully when they overheated it twice and it took them almost 1 year to fix it

[@essemque]

And it's not just the immediate support infrastructure for steam that's gone, but all the support of the support--the parts suppliers to the parts manufacturers--all the way back up the supply chain that's gone and an unimaginable amount of specialized knowledge with it. We're WELL into "miracle that it can still be made to work at all" territory, and you don't push miracles to their limits unless you're truly prepared to accept catastrophic failure as a possible outcome. Thanks for the video!

[@randomsnek]

Hyce considering how much you're enjoying railroads on line with KaN I would love to see you guys play the immersive railroading mod for Minecraft.

[@TheRubberDuck]

The same can be said with Steam loco excursions in the UK, the trains that are scheduled like the Flying Scotsman may well be getting on 100 years old and could run unaided, but as you've said to have a helper with a diesel on the rear prevents additional wear and tear that could cause a loco to be out of service for months whilst waiting on new parts to be made, repaired or replaced.

[@andrewdonohue1853]

One of my questions to ED would be was how could they run the challenger as hard as they did for that one freight consist display that was done well after steam era was over?

[@satiric_]

Steve Lee was in charge back then, and he didn't care as much about the long-term preservation costs. As a result 3985 and 844 both got beat to hell; 844 needed a ton of work back in the early 2010s to become functional again. I remember seeing a photo of the inside of 844's boiler before it was restored: there was more boiler scale in the boiler than there was room for water. I'd imagine that 3985 is in even worse condition (UP chose to restore 4014 over fixing 3985!).

[@bobsmith2637]

That was a special run done at the request of American President Lines, one of UP's major intermodal customers at the time. I suspect APL paid extra for that trip.

[@Hyce777]

You'll note that the challenger is beat to hell, and not running anymore.

[@andrewdonohue1853]

@@Hyce777 how many years was the challenger running? i assumed the boiler ran out of time. that's one of the unfortunate things about operation of steam in modern times, FRA compliance..... maybe it's a good thing im not sure. either way it's a fact of life. we have a local short line, arcade and attica railroad. they normally have a steam locomotive, a consolidation but it has been down for several years for a rebuild...... i hope they get her done soon. i miss hearing the sound of the whistle off in the distance. it was like hearing a ghost. they have, and will eventually run excursions with it. for now they have a couple GE 45 ton switchers.

[@eva.cassidy]

@@Hyce777 At least it got donated to the Railroading Heritage of Midwest America where it will be restored to working order.

[@johnandrobinmccoy8305]

I saw the Big Boy in person this summer, in Nevada. It was off the charts awesome. I also read somewhere that the diesel helper can push in the tunnels also. This allows the steam engine to throttle down in the tunnel, to reduce all the nasty smoke in the tunnel.

[@mopardoctor9966]

Power units are required to have PTC. Steamers don’t have it so a modern power unit has to provide Positive Train Control.

[@Mike-01234]

I just read that UP got approval to run some different PTC now they don't need the diesel maybe we will see it without the diesel. Just internet search "Union Pacific No. 4014 can now run on its own" this was as of 5/2024.

[@shadowsdad903]

Great commentary, Sir! As a former Union Pacific employee, I appreciate all you do.

[@thomasboese3793]

Since there is only "one" working Big Boy, Ed and the UP Steam Crew are going to baby her to keep her running for as long as possible. No one wants to lose her the way the Challenger died, such an untimely death.

[@Travelinmatt1976]

There is another...

[@RichieGonzales_28]

Isn’t challenger being brought back to working order again

[@thomasboese3793]

@@RichieGonzales_28 No, the VP who is the boss of Ed, stated at the 150 anniversary that UP would not be rebuilding the Challenger. Now, however, since she has been donated it would be up to the entity that is now caring for her to bring her back to life.

[@Bim310]

People have been asking this question for years. I always heard i was for dynamic breaking. Now that the Big Boy is making test runs without the diesel backup, we're hearing about PTC. Thanks for breaking this down for us.

[@cartermaloof4980]

I am curious, with CNC machining and 3D printing becoming more popular and commercially viable, would that make steam locomotives a little bit easier to run and maintain logistics wise? Or would that have some other problems that I'm not thinking of? (Also absolutely loving all your videos Hyce well done)

[@blackbirdgaming8147]

I think maybe when the cost of entry to metal 3D printing comes down or the technology advances further, it could become useful to preservation groups. I’ll be honest, I don’t know how much they cost, but I do know that they’re very expensive. While time is money, I feel like many groups can’t justify the cost of entry yet, when a little extra time gets you a much lower price overall.

[@Hyce777]

Yes and no; CNC is best for lots of the same part for cost, manual machining usually beats it out otherwise. 3D printing leading to new cores for casting is an interesting experiment that may help significantly down the road, but I've not seen it be successful quite yet.

[@davidlove21]

Extremely well explained. Well done. Excited to see Ed bring the 4014 down through the Feather River Canyon & through Oroville & Marysville on the old Western Pacific line this July.

[@JesseKreis]

They could certainly help by creating a custom all black livery for the diesel and that would help significantly. Ultimately for me, the yellow livery is really the biggest clash that's happening. Even disguising the diesel as a second tender could be pretty sneaky too albeit expensive.

[@scotcoon1186]

It pulls freight when not on an excursion, they did put number shield decals on it.