I Finally Learnt To Like Neural DSP Amp Plugins | STOP Slamming That Interface & Get Better Tone!)

[@DavidBeebee]

Couple of final final thoughts! I'm still going into the hi-z (instrument) input on the Tascam, just like I did with the Presonus in the previous video. Curious now to go back and explore earlier Neural releases with open ears and mind! Although I really am starting to think the idea of presets made by others is kinda useless without reference to which interfaces and gain methods they were created with. Maybe they're fun jump off point/starting points, and actually it's probably isn't that big of a deal for the non-specific Archetype stuff, but for real world amp recreations it's a head scratcher. Totally explains the wild ride that browsing through the Artist Presets can be! (RIPheadphonz).

[@kimmossige263]

Thank you for this video!!! Can't belive I've recorded my last track with "Line" in on my Clarett, without even bothering to read what "INST" actually means. This would have saved me MANY, MANY, MANY hours of work!!! EDIT: Also, just food for thought, the globally acknowledged statement "If it sounds good, just roll with it" is so incorrect in my opinion. People who say this, often don't take in to consideration many factors that comes to play.. In this instance, say you made it sound good, right! But it's still incorrect attuned for the next song, or the next project.. And then you will have the same dance that I have on my abovementioned situation, where you will spend countless of hours tweaking up and down, and ultimately takes away the joy of recording music.. Absolutely get it right the first time, it will create a much more enjoyable experience that don't put a damper on creativity.

[@qu4zz4r]

What about signal to noise ratio, man? C'mon! If you think the signal before the plugin is too hot, just decrease volume before it digitally on the box

[@igorrattlehead]

wrong, you needed to reduce the gain in the plug-in, not at the audio interface input

[@picksalot1]

Thanks to Ed, John, and yourself for shedding light on this topic. Plugins will be used more in the future, so it's important to get these detailed worked out. It's funny how this mirrors the technical lacunae of the transition from vinyl recording to digital recording.

[@chasinglatitudes1424]

Ola was doing a plug in review, about a year ago and he had the input on the plug in at zero. Someone posted a question to him why he had it at zero and he explained in his next plug in review why he does this. Ever since I saw that I’ve been doing that. I find it interesting how people are doing the reverse and putting the interface input at zero instead of the plug in. I tested it and is much different.

[@LuisRamirez-yg5cw]

Sweet, love Ola, and will be searching for those Plug-in videos However, if you happen to know which ones they are, would you mind posting them here??

[@danpena7922]

It sux putting the interface at zero and makes no sense at all. This topic has just gotten way overblown. People need to use the level indicators and their ears. It's actually hilarious how people buy the BS about putting the interface gain at zero. Input on the sim should be at zero at least to start then tweak if necessary from there. My 2 cents.. It's really a no brainer. Analog or digital it's always been the same concept. Cheers. Of course an amp sim will NEVER sound like a real tube amp that it is emulating simply because they are NOT the same. I think the sims are getting better though. For sure.

[@DimeDCSGO]

@@danpena7922 I can guarantee sims will sound exactly the same as a real tube amp, there are most definitely some that already do. You just refuse to admit it

[@danpena7922]

@@DimeDCSGO I love the Neural Soldano. I bought it.

[@Issachernandez1]

I've never understood why i cant get good clean tones from ac 30 and twin reverb sims, this has been really helpful. Thanks 👍🏽

[@JensLarsen]

Indeed eye-opening that this was going on, it also really fits my experience with plugins

[@DavidBeebee]

The kind of embarrassing thing is, it's sort of obvious if I'd really thought about the logic over the year! But hey ho, we live and learn 😂 and thankfully some determined folks have done the work to figure for me lol End of the day means plugins are a new option to consider using :)

[@JensLarsen]

@@DavidBeebee A real Gain-changer for our lives going forward!

[@DavidBeebee]

lol had to read that twice before I got it! Can't wait to pun in person next week dude :D

[@JensLarsen]

@@DavidBeebee Looking forward!

[@franbert6218]

I understand that you’re trying to reproduce the sound exactly between the plugin and the amp. My problem is the signal to noise ratio. If you’re leaving the input gain at zero, you’re going to get a lot more noise especially when recording the guitar into a DAW.

[@DrProgNerd]

Glancing at my interface input gain set at 9:00. Guilty. I'm continuously dialing the gain down inside my plugins. Game changer. Thank you Ed. Thank you for the demo David.

[@DavidBeebee]

Thanks for watching, glad you found it useful! :)

[@signal76]

Thanks for this video. The examples are much more helpful in trying to describe what Ed and Cordy explained. Subscribed.

[@DavidBeebee]

Glad it was helpful!

[@jeramym9506]

I think this could explain why the new UAFX amp pedals are so popular. They work like an amp right out of the box. But now we know how to use the plugins right. Maybe they will really start to catch on.

[@tamimfaruq6280]

this absolutely helped. turning the interface gain to 0 really is the key point here. Thanks a lot!

[@res3571]

I was going to just jump to the problem and check the correct configurations but your playing is just wow and went for at least one replay.

[@DavidBeebee]

Hah, thanks for the kind words and the views!

[@jayseb]

That FM3 sound - Voicy & Clear ... Nice!

[@kevinwhite6172]

Strum very hard and set your interface to peak at -12 to -13. Everyone that was having issues were running closer to -6 , which is too hot.

[@ztevie.j]

Yes, over never had any luck with software modelers, but I always maximized my input signal. Now I have to revisit the software stuff and try this...

[@kalpitmomaya916]

Did you retry working with software modelers? Did it workout to be ok? No matter where I set my gain level (I set it to zero now), my amp model plugins always sound very very bottom heavy, muddy and dark as if something is wrong. I plug into high z input with gain at 0 on interface.

[@StratsRUs]

Thanks ! When you said "Folk Wisdom", for the first time in my life I felt a sudden urge to smoke a pipe.

[@periloustemple8290]

Spot on! I have been doing this wrong as well. I have demo-ed 3 Archetypes at this point: Morgan, Rabea (OMG!!) & the Mark III (a note: so dead on at both my favorite things and most annoying things about my real versions!). I also think there is something psychological about what the printed tracks look like level wise. They can look weak - but they just aren't. After getting the input right, the next thing - not an issue with Neural, but with many plugin's (even native to the DAW), be mindful of the output level. It can create some unsavory qualities, too. Lastly or firstly: for those that say about input level: if it sounds good it is good. Be warned that in a mix, the issues with that can become impactful in ways that just hinder the clarity of the mix. Just 1 cats opinion this. Thanks for the vid. It needs to be part of Interfaces 101 for everyone!

[@plecogod]

Great demonstration that was easy to follow and you could definitely hear the difference. My problem is I don't own any of the amps that are in the Neural DSP plugins I use, so I have no base reference. I can hear the difference now in the Tone King. That was the Strat/Tele tone I was looking for when I bought the plugin. I am interested to test how this affects my high gain tones in plugins like Gojira or Nolly using humbuckers. Thanks again for the tip. Subscribed.

[@jackbootshamangaming4541]

My Fishman Fluence Moderns, which I played with the most when I picked guitar back up and got into plugins, needs to be at zero gain on nearly every interface Ive tried, to be at the levels theu recommended even. So I was lucky in that aspect I guess. I now follow Ed S. Table for ideal input gain levels and my recordings are much better

[@barryevans6757]

You're damned right about the lack of clarity/information from NDSP; The same can't be said about S-Gear; I've been shocked with how disinterested NDSP can be when a customer is having a difficulty with some aspect of their product;

[@265ENOCK]

I have a problem experimenting with this method. When i set the interface gain (SSL2+ for reference) to 0 I get little to no sound on the DAW, and I have to increase the gain to be able to hear the input. Any recommendations?

[@Fiveash-Art]

My SSL2 was buzzy with extremely loose fuzzy buttons , second channel didn't work , continually disconnected itself .. I threw it in the garbage and bought a Clarett .. problem solved. The hype on those interfaces is crazy online. I don't get it. Maybe I got a lemon, but I've heard A LOT of other people talk about those interfaces being bricked within a year.

[@265ENOCK]

@@Fiveash-Art 1+year and counting, no problems until now.

[@Fiveash-Art]

@@265ENOCK That seems to be most people's experience. Hope it continues working for you. I couldn't turn mine up past 2 without getting a nasty buzzing hum. I almost thought I was having a ground loop problem. That wasn't the case. I'm actually glad to be rid of it though.. The Clarett sounds SO much better.. it also feels like a quality build unlike the SSL unit .. live and learn I guess. Always beware KZbinrs hyping gear and software. A lot of it is just straight up guerrilla marketing. They're being compensated to endorse stuff. They may look like the real deal .. but if they're making money, they're most likely compromised.

[@HonoraryBreathTaker]

Did anyone already say that just bring down an input on Neural DSP plugin?

[@cristopherjohansson1323]

I've always had the gain knob at 0, I never thought about it but I guess in the back of my head I didn't want any more colouration from the preamps, and if I needed more gain or less on the amp plugin I would just use the input gain on the plugin.

[@KahruSuomiPerkele]

That's what I learnt on my own when I using amplitube 2 back in the days.

[@TomsRockHouse]

Very interesting! A few days ago, I bought the Morgan Amps Suite and was quite confused why I don't sound like Jack Gardiner by using the preset "Favourite Breakup Lead" (well knowing, that I never will sound like Jack!!!). What's even more worse is, that it does sound absolutely different in my two different DAWs. One with a Audient EVO 4 and Logitech standard speaker (DAW just for noodling and collecting ideas) and the other with a MOTU 896 mk3 Hybrid, Tannoy 502 and a RCF sub. I spent a bit of time getting close to the tone I wanted by comparing it to Jack's video. Now I'm using the PAD button (-20), leveling the input gain by +1 db with the MOTU. By using the EVO the only chance is to roll the knob down to the lowest input level. From now on, I don't fear a small wave when recording guitars with Cubase, because now the amps sound more the way they should.

[@Phoboss32]

Plus, activate High-Z input on your interface. Another option is to place a preamp with very low gain settings in front of the interface.

[@DavidBeebee]

Yes, I should have said this a bit clearer, always go into an instrument hi-z input! I did this on the Presonus in the previous video, and I am also doing so on the Tascam in this video, you can see the switch under the gain pot.

[@SugarTouch]

@@DavidBeebee You also should have said you cranked up gain on guitar track in logic.... INSTEAD of hardware input gain on Tascam. Because you STILL need healthy level of your guitar hitting the front of the plugin. Because Ed's video is NOT about plugin or guitars or input level. It's about aligning RANGES of hardware gain of two interfaces.

[@DavidBeebee]

Hi, I'm not sure I'm following you. I've spoken with Ed a fair bit about this, and he's also commented on this video, saying it's a clear demonstration of the issue. If you watch the video you can clearly hear how the plugin improves and gets closer to the response of the real amp/fm3 when using this method. What do you mean "cranked up the gain on the guitar track in logic"? I have not put a gain plugin on the insert and the track level doesn't have any effect on the input going into the plugin. Can you elaborate on what you mean? @@SugarTouch

[@SerpentsBane1995]

@@DavidBeebee Ed S replied in many comments on his video that depending on the interface and plugin being used, you may still need to cut or boost the input signal within the plugin itself, or with a trim/gain plugin before it if the plugin does not have enough range. Lowering the input all the way down to zero on your interface is the get the cleanest signal possible to work with, with the lowest noise floor. You need to then match your given amount of headroom for your interface to whatever threshold the plugin brand used to calibrate their plugin. Do not boost your interface gain EVER (unless you do not care about getting accurate GAIN staging from your plugins!) because you are lowering your headroom and also boosting your noise floor levels, which is much greater than the inaudible margins you get from boosting within plugins; you will not know what amount of headroom you have without using a sine wave to test it, and you probably would not be able to match that specific decibel target to whatever was used to make the plugins. It is also like putting a clean boost pedal or overdrive pedal in front of the amp. Hope this helps, keep rocking! \m/

[@drummingjeremy11]

very interesting. Thank you. Im curious to see the meters in logic for both of these tracks so we can have some sort of reference point.

[@ChrisM541]

They'll be WAAAAY low....and would be extremely counter-intuitive to accept.

[@spiritofrocknroll]

David, I just happened on this one last night and tried it immediately. Goodness, night and day difference! My current interface (M Audio Duo) wasn't on the spreadsheet but the idea of lowering the input gain was massive. My problem previously was that there's too much presence and the pick attack totally ate up the volume. Zeroing down on the input gain gave me a much clearer tone.

[@eds4754]

Great video Beebs! Nicely demonstrated and glad your experience with plugins is better now!

[@DavidBeebee]

Thanks Ed, standing on the shoulders of your fantastic work! 🙏🏻

[@VedunianCraft]

Making music over 20 years and it never occurred to me to set my guitars line gain differently than a mic... Thanks a lot for spreading the word. Now my plugins sound good all of a sudden XD! Cheers!

[@Illiyinmusic]

it makes sense... if youre above zero youre basically adding a boost. had always set mine to zero with the QC as an interface.. granted if you use the QC amps you adjust it to your pick up outputs.. but plugins are different..

[@ahmedtohami-7787]

The problem is that the sound comes from the plugin is great when the gain is set to 0 in my interface , however the dry signal being recorded is very poor in my daw which wont be useful if i changed my mind and used another plugin

[@PedroMiguel-if3ll]

And beside you want the guitar being recorded between -12 to -6 dB. This method will just make your dry recording useless, and that is the most important to have a good mix. The amp sim you use does not matter

[@MichaelParkerMedia]

I have a 1st Generation 6i6 Scarlett and tried rolling it all the way left on my Neural and Nembrini plugs with varying results. IN some cases there was not enough signal to make for a pleasing tone. Maybe it's just me and I'm not understanding something but I didn't find this to be as pleasing as what I was using before. It does however make me want to look into modelers now.

[@ridesharesydneydrivers8592]

My signal is too weak as well. I'm going into a presonus studio24c. The math on mine is to back off the NDSP input to -2.2 after setting interface to zero. Signal is too weak. I concur with another commenter here who said to set interface to peak at -12 to -13 instead. If you've been peaking at -6 before that would explain why it sounds too saturated once it hit the plugin.

[@adamburger858]

yup, I found that my Focusrite Claret 4-pre sounds better with gain all the way down.. or near...nice playing btw

[@DavidBeebee]

Cool, and thanks for the kind words!

[@JeffTaylor-z5v]

I thought that it was intended to put that 12.2 headroom on the plug-ins input level. In other words, zero on the audio device, put the manufacturers published headroom in DBU at the input level of the particular plug-in. That seems to work for me when I use UA Apollo Twin driving amplitude 5 Max in standalone

[@bananam4x]

Many thanks and subscribed. Was going nuts with all the unneeded noise.

[@SamWhiting]

Stellar playing as always and really interesting, going to have to open up my much-maligned plugins!

[@DavidBeebee]

Thanks Sam! Yea it’s been a right plug-in journey this year and we’re only 2 weeks in 😹

[@BeholdTheAshes]

The title of this video should be "I finally learnt how to properly use an amp sim"

[@djcrouton2680]

Cool. The Neural plugin still sounds like it's more broken up but way closer so it's maybe a minor adjustment to get them right on than how vastly different they were to begin with. Also makes me think that I should just get a FM3.

[@brettellem8866]

With this method it appears the size of the recorded waveform is a lot smaller, does this matter? I use an Apogee Duet interface & am looking forward to trying this approach, thanks for sharing, very informative.

[@telecasper]

How do you then compensate for the huge signal/volume drop when recording? Raise the Output on the Plugin?

[@PedroMiguel-if3ll]

This does not make any sense, as Hi-z gain knob is supposed to be use to get the best gain stage level before recording. And as you probably already found out, the reason there's no signal on your recording is because you are recording the actual dry signal, not what comes out from the Plugin. So it does not matter the output level of the amp sim.

[@jamesdaviesguitar]

Great vid Beebs and lovely intro jam on that!🔥

[@DavidBeebee]

Thanks dude, feel like I've finally turned a positive corner with the plugin thing. Kind of exciting really, can go back through previous ones I've bought and explore.

[@jamesdaviesguitar]

@@DavidBeebee yeah dude! Know exactly what you mean- Had that same feeling and experience with the the plugins. The Morgan suite is one of the best imo and having been playing about and recording with it the last few days, I feel I’m getting the most of it now… Glad you turned that frustrating corner too! Lol

[@DavidBeebee]

cheers, lo dude looking forward to hear what you've been recording with it!

[@lastcall9998]

The drums are real? They sound like they are. BASS sounds phenomenal. How did you achieve this? Wow.

[@Songaholica]

With Softube it is great. With Amplitube , I push the input slider till I feel less 'Spikiness' on my fretting fingers.It's not as scientific as the suggested settings for the known values on the other sims.And I have to adjust it then save for any amp.But it feels fine enough as I use real Marshalls too and I can only compare them for my own songs.It's not as nightmarish as it's made out though. Thank you !

[@therockzones]

I confirm that everything is correct. It's a pity that this doesn't work with other guitar plug-in manufacturers.

[@hurleymediatv]

I stumbled upon your video while looking for answers for this type of problem, but using Amplitube. When you mentioned you were previously using a Presonus Studio 1824c, I got that aha moment. I too, am using a 1824c. But I also have a Behringer Ultragain Pro-8 Digital (Model ADA8000) running through my Presonus using ADAT, for 8 more mic inputs. I had never thought about plugging my guitar into the cheap Behringer interface, to see if Amplitube sounded correct. Well guess what.. It did! I was about ready to give up on Amplitube, but holy crap does it sound good now. Thank you for making this video. Cheers!

[@ArrakisOCE]

Maybe correct gain staging was assumed knowledge to use plugins effectively. A good audio interface with nice converters does make a difference as well. The Neural amp sims sound noticeably better than Fractal to me - hence they are all I use now.

[@aenima5983]

Thanks for the info. The Mesa Boogie Mark 2C+ plug in sounds great now!

[@RePERCUSSION]

I had an issue getting my heavy guitar tones sitting in the mix and this makes so much sense. The interface acts as something like a tubescreamer effect if the gain is up.

[@ViciousTuna2012]

That's because you're probably not adjusting your software input gain. Interface gain at 0 is incorrect and this video explains why: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nXuYapttrcupmqssi=oAL5e1UoGUDPZxWD

[@07dhiraj]

You have covered a really hot topic ... You are a hero !! 🎉🎉😀😀 ... Amp sims were gr8 but now us guitar fraternity want to behave exactly 100% like a real deal ... which is how the companies built them for at first place 🎉🎉😊😊

[@DavidBeebee]

Thanks! Glad you like the video, I do think this method takes us a bit closer towards getting the plugins to behave how the real amp would given the same guitar/pickups.

[@07dhiraj]

@@DavidBeebee but amplitube 5 fails here as for ndsp we know tht zero = 12.2 dBu but for AT 5 we don't know it's zero value ? 🙂👍💐💐🎉🎉✅✅

[@DavidBeebee]

I think what makes it complicated is that I seem to remember something about each amp model in AT5 has a different zero values. I'll look into it again.

[@ChrisM541]

It's damning on every plugin company that they didn't tell us NOT to follow 'convention' !! It's also damning on every youtube reviewer not to tell us how they got all thos superb clean sounds....they were clearly told what to do here !!

[@Fiveash-Art]

@@ChrisM541 I'm scratching my head about this too. I'm not a good guitar player, but I can manage to get a decent sound while recording .. I couldn't for the life of me figure out why this Soldano Neural plug-in I bought sounded so muddy and so freakin noisy. You keep hearing people say, "Just get right below clipping". Why is Neural DSP not straight up telling people up front to disregard this concept and just turn the damn interface down? It's just so stupid.

[@johnplaystheguitar123]

no wonder all my preset packs in helix native were so gainy. also all my NAM captures i got too. time to revisit them all properly.

[@fuzzymuppet1990]

Exact setup plugins you use.. ive used other amp sim plugins for 16-17 years now.. and ive always wondered why everything sounded like over saturated and everything would sound boomy and muddy. I accidentally figured this out about a month ago.. holy crap what a difference ! Then, of course, the audio tracks in my daw are all super small so I thought I was crazy. Then, right after all these videos came out, talking about this !

[@kalpitmomaya916]

@@fuzzymuppet1990 Hey! I'm facing the same issue. All the amp sim plugins I'm using on my i9 computer through RME Babyface Pro FS and also on focusrite scarlett solo 2nd gen are sounding very very boomy an muddy. I tried to lower the input gain on interface to zero. Although the saturation reduced, but it's still way too muddy and boomy. Totally unusable. Can you please tell me what were your issues and did you find a solution? Really trying to get a usable guitar tone and make the plugins sound just like they are supposed to since last 10 years. They sound very boomy and dark and muddy and lifeless.

[@SOYUSE]

Seems like plugin input for your interface should be -2.2, if we look Ed's table.

[@outpost31guitarsandgear]

wow…..thats some stellar guitar playing

[@danielkrawiec5259]

According to sheet document of Ed S. in my case I should be engaging PAD od my Behringer UMCS204HD. dialing +4.8 gain in plugin. Unfortunately, it's not enough, what is noticeable when I'm going through presets of other artists. My guitar has quite hot pickups for metal stuff, so that's not the case. Sustain is quite low, can't do pitch harmonics that well etc. I tried disengaging PAD button, that was better, but too hot sometimes. I've got better results dialing forbidden gain knob at my interface, so it's hitting -12dbfs in DAW and it's more natural and responsive that way.

[@Scotty_AV]

Can you negate this by lowering the db of D.I.'s after recording?

[@sol_music]

Thanks for the video, this is exactly what I was looking for.

[@PedroMiguel-if3ll]

But if you are recording to a DAW, if you don't use the gain on the Hi-z input, then there's no enough signal, since when using amp sim on a audio track as an insert, you're actually recording the dry signal of the guitar, not the Neural output. So how to go around that?

[@kalpitmomaya916]

That means we are listening to dry signal of our guitar + the processed sound from amp sims, both are the same time, when playing and listening through studio monitor speakers?

[@Squirrel-i6u]

I have the same interface except it's the 102i. Love my tascam stuff.

[@jimsmith4611]

Similar issues with my Kemper where rigs sound awful a lot of the time when setting up for recording. Was getting so frustrated. From what I think you are saying it would be a case of setting my Tascam 4X4 input to 0.0 db and the input on the Kemper rig to 0.0db. Fingers crossed not sure that it will work with the Kemper input set to 0.0db but will give a it go. Cheers for that watched Cordy and ED S videos but this just linked it all together for me. Simple enough on the face of it Thank you sir. When I think about it now I used to use Amplitube 4 and the Scuffham amp and they too sounded wrethced.. Will go back to trying to them out again using this method.. Also like the sound of the Neural DSP.. Game changer might be an understatement..

[@eds4754]

If you are using the Kemper as a DI, turn down the Clean Sens. parameter. At default (0) it’s 5dBu which is very low headroom. I’d adjust to -7dB or -8dB so you have 12dBu or 13dBu headroom, and then set reamp sens. to +7 or 8 so if you reamp with the kemper it’s back at unity. That level will also sound better for NDSP etc plugins

[@1SuperTempest]

I noticed the white volume knob and power knob did not work at all like the real amp. The white knob was adding distortion in the plug in and on the real amp it pretty much adds only volume. The power knob was adding volume with very little distortion. It’s also missing out in the ear piercing chiminess and country twang the morgan can hit. It felt nothing like the actual amp to me.

[@rossdonald594]

Why would the Plugin developers not draw our attention to this long ago? I'm flabbergasted!!!

[@qu4zz4r]

Oh, no, another one... 😮 What about signal to noise ratio, man? C'mon! If you think the signal before the plugin is too hot, just decrease volume before it digitally on the box

[@bgrierofficial]

The machete at 4:08!😂😂😂😂

[@ruanlegrange]

Hello! I want to ask specifically regarding live setup. Is this issue ONLY for DAW & plugins? Or does it affect live setup input/gain as well? If so, what is best scenario tor live quad cortex straight into an analogue mixing desk (without DI). Should we change anything?

[@ruslanbatkovich]

Hello. Thank you very much for the really good advice. However, I would like to know how to build the gain structure of guitar amplifiers in Logic.

[@japmn1]

Devs just need to add an meter at the input with "Optimal" gain for input indicated, you can use the input gain of the plugin to adjust to the correct range. It's a big miss.

[@willdenham]

Can I get more plugins than just their featured amps? I've seen vids that feature captures of iconic gear like a 68' plexi. I'm away from my amps on weekends so looking for something portable to maybe use with my laptop. Used to lug an amp head and a CaptorX but that's such a hassle. I have a Presonus as well.

[@ShreddingDragon]

Why not turn down the input gain in the plugin UI? It's non-destructive; you get to keep options. Is there an actual sonic benefit to having the gain at zero on the interface, versus turning it down on the plugin?

[@eds4754]

the benefit is you know exactly what your input headroom is, and you’ll likely have a hot enough signal anyway at 0. If your interface has stepped gain controls you can easily add gain and adjust your headroom value without having to measure. any approach is fine, but setting it to 0 means you can just look at manufacturer specs and return to that value essily

[@daflepail]

I think the FM3 is recorded in stereo that is why it is more full sounding than the neural.

[@whenifeellikeit]

+12.5 dBu is the maximum input level at gain knob set to 0. That's how hot signal the interface can take at no gain added. Ideally, the strength of input signal entering your audio gear should be 0 dBu. If it's less then you get more noise when you turn up the volume. If it's more you get distortion. When you adjust the level of the interface knob just below peaking you get around that 0 dBu of input signal (0,77 volts). I have a Soldano from NeuralDSP and single coils and it works for me when I set my Scarlet input gain just below peaking. The clean tone is good, if I want a more mellow tone I just turn down my guitar volume knob from 10 to around 8. When I tried to set it to 0 I got a significant loss in sound quality. Maybe it's about this Morgan plugin that has this issue.

[@andybolee]

Hey David, thanks a lot for your video! When I set up my equipment with your method (Neural Cory Wong & UAD Apollo) I get a very clean recording, but it's very quiet and can't be recognized visually in Logic. 🤔

[@Andres-Estrella]

I installed an amp modelling software and was wondering why it sounded so "off". Thank you!!!!!

[@gehtdichnüschtan]

That‘s why there is an input knob in the plugin 🫠 It‘s always a good idea to record a DI as hot as possible with a high quality audio interface. If you use a great DI box in between it can be even better. Just play around with the volume of your takes or the input knob in the plugin and you‘ll get the results you need

[@rossdonald5026]

I'm bewildered why the plugin manufacturers don't spell this out for us. I've never been happy with the setting up of my interface to match the plugins input level..... Phffff.

[@DavidBeebee]

Bewildering indeed!

[@jessechung1109]

I've had the same experience. On any humbucker guitar, the AC20 would sound way too saturated.. for that matter any plugin amp sims lol In the topic of "matching the level a sim is expecting", I'd argue that you could technically achieve the same thing with cranking input on AD up but backing down the INPUT knob (NOT THE GAIN KNOB ON THE AMP SIM) on the plugin. This way you preserve the great SNR from AD conversion (although with modern interfaces this wouldn't be too much of a problem), while taming the input to a level that the sim is expecting. I think the problem comes down to these plugins being "reactive" to the input level. If you think about real amps, they almost always have a fixed preamp level and the rest of gain stages work around that fixed level. With digital sims that part is just gone; so it's upto you to provide a "matched" level -- either by controlling it at the interface OR with the input knob. Take Fractal for example -- all fractal units have a default "fixed" input level when all knobs are at 0, and their amp models are designed to work around that level. Whereas with ndsp or any ampsim plugins, you have at least 2 stages of gain control. One at the interface, one at the plugin. Nailing this is totally upto you... and for this you'd kinda need to know what the real amp sounds like

[@GianlucaMurru]

I hoped that this was the reason why I was never able to appreciate Neural plugins. Not even one. But nope, I can't stay satisfied even by adjusting the input correctly, I always feel that there is something wrong with the dynamics, especially how it reacts to the touch of the pick in palm mutes. They work great in mixes, but for me, feeling the instrument is absolutely essential and in this, I find even my Spark MINI more responsive. Am I crazy? I see everybody happy with NeuralDSP plugins and I feel so alone in this lol For me, the plugin that comes closest to my FM3 is ToneX, I tried it yesterday and I was absolutely shocked by how good it sounds. The problem with the FM3 is that reamping is very inconvenient compared to a plugin, but with ToneX I think I've found a solution

[@jcfmfd]

I'm using helix native, and when i set the input of my audio interface at zero, when i record in logic, i have sound but i have veeeeery tiny wave in Logic, so i think i'm doing something wrong i guess

[@lenni-hazels]

Interesting, i have come to the same conclusion to set the input gain really low generally (was listening for noise floor). But I also almost always use one and the same Impulse Response, no matter what. Just seems to sound best with my not so great guitar, haha. I also tend to put a very quick attack and release compressor in front of the amp, kind of like a stomp. If you haven't already try the Tonex plugin by IK Multimedia, there are tons of amps to check out and most of it is really close to an actual amp sound.

[@kablah19]

Why can’t you simply adjust the input level on the modeler/plugin to get the level you want? Doing it on the AD conversion side seems kind of dumb

[@zendakk]

Because using one's ears is apparently harder than blindly following dubious, misinformed trendy advice making the rounds in the online musosphere 🙃

[@jayboy6895]

Very tasty playing maestro

[@DavidBeebee]

Thank you kindly!

[@devouringfamine2427]

On my sound card, the biggest peak when I hit the guitar hard is -13 db. I see in many comments that this is an optimal signal, is that correct?

[@DanHovington]

Ther problem I get is that with the gain at zero it sounds great but the wave form in reaper is so small that it's almost impossible to really see well if I want to do dual guitars and make sure things are aligned well

[@w.mfootballyandt7604]

Yep. That's something I did rather quickly (to put the interface gain to zero). But we end up with a weak signal (as we can see in the DAW at 15:10), which still puzzles me.

[@ViciousTuna2012]

that's because interface gain at 0 is not correct. This video explains why this misconception about gain staging became prolific and why it's wrong: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nXuYapttrcupmqssi=oAL5e1UoGUDPZxWD

[@w.mfootballyandt7604]

@@ViciousTuna2012 Yes, thanks, I saw that new one, but it is not more convincing.

[@ViciousTuna2012]

@@w.mfootballyandt7604 It's right tho. 0dbu input gain on the interface results in a weak dry signal with a loud noise floor. The key is to adjust your input gain on the interface to be as loud as you can before clipping, then adjust your software input gain down by however many decibels you raised your interface gain.

[@w.mfootballyandt7604]

@@ViciousTuna2012 Dunno. It's true that the amp sims sound more genuine by not using the interface gain knob (or by using it just a little bit). Personally, I still have to find what the best solution could be.

[@ViciousTuna2012]

@w.mfootballyandt7604 the sim sounds good, yes, but the dry signal is weak with a loud noise floor. That's the problem. The goal is to get a healthy dry signal for recording so that if you need to reamp things still sound good.

[@Joseph-y6p]

See...I'm having the opposite problem. I play mainly in metal bands. I like the super model Marshal sound. I'm plugging in, it's coming in as clean as... And there is not enough gain. Even on a 5150!! I've played through 5150's. There is a MONSTEROUS amount if gain. It's literally silly. It was the first amp where I turned the gain down, at all! And I turned it down to about half! I plug into an interface... Pull up a 5150... And it's like the gain is on about a quarter, if that. It's INCREDIBLY frustrating! Notes aren't forming or 'blooming' properly. harmonics in the notes when I bend are just not there... I don't know what I'm doing wrong. But I can't possibly imagine turning the input gain down, is going to ultimately give me more gain? Any ideas? any idea who I should talk to to fix this? The promise is there, the basic sound is buried in there... But it's just not responding correctly.

[@efulmpuy132]

Since i'am as a bedroom guitarist with no real amp😂, and too bad for me that i have small amount of knowledge about how the real amp sound compare to plugin that i used. For the start before record any guitar, usually do the gain staging and matching the sound based on my ear😂 not based on the real amp because i dont have anything to compare, but for better sound, i think your trick could be useful for me and others to try. Because mostly i've struggle with my sound reference, probably because of the inacurate input staging.

[@bethesdafalcoyamaoka5483]

Incredible video. Thank you for that! Im curious why even have the gain knob? Like when should it actually be used?

[@djabthrash]

Are you talking about the gain knob on the ampsim or on the interface ?

[@tendingtropic7778]

nice! thanks for the settings. how many db do you peak at normally when pluggin in your guitar to interface with gain at 0?

[@eds4754]

it would depend on the guitar, set up, tuning, pickups, pickup height, strings, pick, player etc. That’s why we use a sine wave to calibrate (because it’s constant and repeatable). If you use the manufacturer specs you dont need to measure as they’ve already done it for you :)

[@tendingtropic7778]

@@eds4754i agree it depends on the guitar/pickups, etc. But are you saying that it should not matter? even if the pickups are low output (not hot), still the interface/plugin gain should be set at 0?

[@eds4754]

@@tendingtropic7778 exactly. We want to preserve the differences in guitar levels and different pickups. With a real amp, low output single coils drive the amp softer than loud pickups. We want that same behaviour with plugins, for them to be accurate. So the only variable we are trying to remove is the converter calibration. All other differences in level we want to preserve.

[@middle_pickup]

Those gain setting recommendations make sense for proper hardware. Is it not obvious that the DI/preamp and converters of your interface will greatly affect your amp plugin experience? This is the same as when you record anything. A cheap interface with a poorly designed DI will sound bad.

[@Adambobro]

Are you using a DI box between your guitar and the interface?

[@touarec]

Hey David, great playing! Gonna pick up that plugin and will try the same settings. Your guitar is gorgeous, is that a custom shop model? What pickups do you use?

[@victorbicudo1374]

the correct interface gain will ALWAYS be the hottest signal without clipping. What you need to do after that is to trim the input gain (NOT THE GAIN KNOB) on the plugin. Doing otherwise is just stupid.

[@Xzvsc]

Why not turn up near clipping, then turn down the input signal on plugin to match the peak between 0 gan vs near clipping gain? To get lowest noise as possible from the AI itself?

[@eds4754]

the background noise from the pickups will be more significant than the self noise of the interface. So even if you lower the interface noise, you won’t hear any benefit as the pickup noise will mask it

[@stephenfleming8030]

I keep seeing this "Gain at zero" thing, and wonder whether anyone has ever thought about what that actually means and how it differs from one input device to another. It just wont mean the same thing for all devices, I can guarantee you that, as there is NO STANDARD to which all interfaces adhere to. It seems, after a little thought, that the plugins like to see an instrument input (preferably JFET I would think) with the GAIN at UNITY. This is not the same thing as turning the gain knob all the way to the left. The only way you can be sure of finding unity gain on your input channels is : run a test tone generator from your DAW at -18dB (arbitrary level but it should correlate to unity gain at the output which is where the opamp performance is best) route that signal to an output take a balanced TRS jack from that output and connect that to an input channel increase the gain on that input channel until your interface's mixer or your DAW reads -18db That should be where unity gain is set on the preamps of your interface. Mark it with a sharpie, or if it's digitally controlled, note the input gain on the device. I can't think of another foolproof way to establish whether the gain setting on your interface's preamp is at unity or not. Of course, this isn't a problem for anyone using an external instrument preamp which feeds an interface input at line level - unity gain is almost always marked on the input gain legend. DI Boxes, if that's your vibe, also vary with trannies being either 10:1 or 12:1...so there'll be a difference in the level your interface sees depending on the box used.

[@eds4754]

the issue is more to do with the specs of the A/D converter, so -18dBFS out of a D/A could be a range of different voltages depending on the gear being used. The best way is to send a sine wave out, and measure the actual voltage. Then run that known voltage into your input chain and see what dBFS level you get. From here you can accurately adjust to a known headroom.

[@stephenfleming8030]

@@eds4754 I Don't think that's true about A/D converters...the vast vast majority of interfaces use the same A/D chips. There are only a few in common usage as far as I know, thus keeping the entry level the same for all manufacturers. The difference is in the preamp circuit design either side of the A/D D/A. That's where the magic happens, and that's where it's either good topology or off the shelf designs using the cheapest of the cheap SMD OpAmps. We agree on the solution however; run a test tone out via TRS to an input. All else being equal, the inputs and outputs will be calibrated similarly. None of this would a problem if manufacturers stipulated exactly where unity gain is on the mic pres.

[@eds4754]

@@stephenfleming8030 you can look at the specs of different converters, they vary in how much voltage (dBu) they can take before clipping. Some converters even allow you to adjust the headroom so you can calibrate them to whatever gear you are using them with. You often hear of -18dBFS because converters will often be designed with +4dBu=0VU with 18dB of headroom, so a 4dBu sine wave would have 18dB of headroom before clipping, and therefore 22dBu of headroom total. There are MANY converters that don't use this definition though. Avid MTRX has 30dBu of headroom, RME varies between 24dBu and 19dB and 13dBu, UAD has 20dBu, Prism and Lynx are different too. so UAD Apollo has 16dBu of headroom, or a 4dBu sine wave would be equal to -16dBFS. This is the exact reason there is confusion about input levels with amp sim plugins too.

[@stephenfleming8030]

@@eds4754 Absolutely, I agree. Just to clear up any confusion I may have caused, when I say 'converter' I'm talking literally about the chip that does the conversion. As we've established, the topology on either side of the converters can vary from circuits that cost pennies, to well designed often transparent circuits like RME pres....a world apart from a small Focusrite Scarlett that's using very cheap smds that need to be handled with care to get the best out of them....to say nothing of the clocking differences between units that use the same physical ADDA chips. I'm assuming that the 'majority' of interested parties here are guitarists, rather than primarily engineers. I don't know if that assumption is fair or warranted? If that is the case however, then it's doubly difficult to explain what's going on with input gains and how they should be set taking account of all the variables at play. I've tried external pres at unity, and it seems to be ballpark. For guitarists maybe a decent active DI box is the best solution - an active Radial DI for guitar is 140 EU, and you'll have it for life. For the lazier, or the skint...Tonex software has pre-recorded guitar parts built in which are DIs from fairly easily identifiable pick up types - one could always match the input gain to them if you're in a pinch.

[@eds4754]

@@stephenfleming8030 what about converters that don’t use any preamps? They all vary - There simply isn’t a standard for defining an analog voltage as a dBFS level. It has nothing to do with preamps, or other circuitry in this case. They are just spec’d different for different demands and price brackets. and so setting a preamp to unity doesn’t help when converters have different specs. Preamp gain is one thing, but the conversion ratio of the converters is another. I would also be careful with Radial DI’s because many of them have impedances far below 1M Ω which means they’ll load passive pickups incorrectly and get poor results. They’re well made DI’s, but for many guitars you’d need to run a buffer in front. I use an Avalon U5, but there are many suitable DI’s with 1M Ω or greater that I think are more suitable.

[@marioaguilera9463]

Hello, I have a silly question, but what should be the volume in the guitar volume? because I understand the Input in the interface has to be 0 and the plugin at noon, but what about the guitar?

[@eds4754]

Guitar is wherever you like it, just like when you use a real amp. The goal of calibrating is so that ANY guitar you use, no matter how the volume is set, which pickups, if you are using pedals etc, the plugin would respond just the same as the real amp.

[@Reakerboy]

Noooooo! Now I've got to record my entire EP guitar tracks again ! 😢

[@pellevastano]

So I found for myself, the interface at zero was a good starting point of how Neural expects the amp to react. Knowing what it sounded like with my interface at zero, I wanted to get a lower noise floor so I could keep gates off and play with my volume knob, especially with distortion and crunch. So I found what gave me the best results was learning the taper of my interface’s input, and scaling the input down on my neural plugins. For me, I found about 10 o’clock on the instrument input of my Scarlett combined with lowering the input volume on Neural’s side to -9dB gave me awesome results.

[@subhanmandal6315]

Yes that is right the amp must see the correct signal level but please don't turn the gain to zero that's just bad signal to noise, use as much gain as you can in the interface to the converter and then in the logic or in the plugin itself there is an input dial just how much the input signal is more than the desired signal and reduce from either plugin input or add another volume plugin before the amp sim and please don't turn down the actual physical gain never do that, always record with as much gain you can without clipping then reduce the signal in the digital realm so you get best signal quality and the correct input level to the amp

[@drspody]

omg, thanks for this video. You answered the too many question i had!

[@PerryCodes]

Somehow, you managed to make John look like Hide The Pain, Harold!

[@boogiexx]

this is just plain and simply wrong, or partially right, rhe fact you got lucky and got better sound then the wrong method is just.a lucky mistake, for anyone interested Ghost note audio has a video about amp sims and input gain that takes your sound card, your software and your guitar into account and gets results whatever card/software or guitar you're using.

[@predigr]

I have tried with many different audio interfaces, setups, etc. I cannot jam using computer. Latency and 150K config ruins the whole experience.