I Think Lidia Is Top 10, This Is Why

[@sesujin]

After reading through your comments I want to copy/paste my comment I made on ReinbowNeos's video on this topic to help further explain my reasoning for Lidia being top 10: I think Lidia is a weird edge case when it comes to top 10 that doesn't apply to any other character that could be there (except maybe you can make an argument for Xiaoyu), that case being how you factor in ease of use into a character placement. Personally, I don't consider how easy the character is to use when determining character strength. I instead think of how strong that character is when you have the best players of the character playing them. In Lidia's case, I think if you put the absolute best Lidia players in a major tournament, they can make her perform better than the majority of character in the game, including one or two in top 10 (in my personal list I moved Claudio out of top 10 for Lidia), but I think there's an argument to be made where she's just outside of top 10 even under this reasoning. The thing that makes this difficult is there is no other character who could be considered top 10 that this reasoning would be relevant for, and it's something I should have specified in my video. This is also a reason why I think that Lidia, Yoshimitsu, Xiaoyu, and even to an extent Nina should be top 10 characters. The way I see it, characters that are considered top 10 should be the harder characters in the game, it's a sign of healthy game balance. If the top 10 is filled with a bunch of very easy and overtuned characters that don't need to work for their spot, that's a sign of unhealthy game balance. Other fighting games communities like Blazblue for instance use this idea for their tier lists, where characters like Carl are considered to be the best characters in the game despite requiring far more effort and character loyalty than the majority of fighting game characters in general to be in that spot. That's generally my basis on why I put Lidia so high, I think that she is a extremely difficult character that is one of the best in the game when someone plays her at her skill ceiling. That's not something that Lidia players or really anyone should be warry of, and I don't think that's something which we should see and call for nerfs. I think it's a sign that Lidia is an extremely well designed and well balanced character, albeit with a few flaws. I would MUCH rather have Lidia as a top 10 character than someone like Drag, King, or Alisa. I think a lot of Tekken players see the top 10 as a big red flashing "THIS CHARACTER NEEDS TO BE NERFED" sign, and personally I don't think that needs to be the case at all. I also want to point out a comment a lot of you are saying where the logic applied in this video can apply to every other character in the game, and I simply do not believe that's true. No matter how strong an Asuka player is, for example, even KingReyJr cannot play Asuka to a level where she could be S tier compared to the rest of the roster. In a vacuum where you have KingReyJr playing against a pro who picked up drag a month ago, maybe, but not compared to someone who would be equivalent in regards to character skill with drag like JDCR. Original comment: Hello everyone! Two thing I quickly want to clarify about my talking points in this video: First, when I'm speaking about Lidia players not trying to play around her issues, I'm reffering to high level and pro Lidia players throughout this video. If you're at purple or blue ranks, I do not expect any of you to be working out these problems, nor do I think anyone should expect that. These are extremely high level 3D fighting game concepts that don't even nessasarially apply to Tekken characters most of the time, and that's not something most of you should have to worry about. You're all doing great! That leads to my second point, when I say Lidia is top 10, I'm speaking on her absolute maximum potential that I still think is largely untapped. I don't think everyone can play Lidia at a top 10 level, she's no dragunov or anything like that, and for the majority of people she is going to perform at a low to low-mid level. However, I think she has the potential to knock on top 10's door. I think that if you take the absolute best Lidia players in the world, they can make her hover around the 9th to 14th best character range. That's the main point I'm trying to make. Anyway, thank you for reading and watching! This is where I normally shill my twitch stuff so here you go twitch.tv/sesujin

[@Gasa1296]

Bro I had a question, what tracking options has Lidia in cat stance? I sense that even having plus frames the opponent can side step everything, making me work with timing to deal with it

[@sesujin]

@@Gasa1296 CAT 4 and CAT 1+2 are the only two moves that can track the opponent, but they can both lose to sidewalk depending on the situation and matchup in some rare circumstances. Really the best way to hit a sidestepping opponent out of CAT is to either transition into WLF and force a mixup out of that, or cancel the CAT stance and do a b1 or d/b3 to catch the sidestep.

[@VerkoAviarhidea]

i think the fact that you have to put effort into squeezing water out of stone is what makes lidia bottom 5, but that doesn't make her useless, it just goes to show how strong EVERYONE else is

[@sesujin]

I completely understand your point and agree with you to an extent, but imo that doesn't really affect how strong a character is. If a character requires a lot of really difficult things to make strong but a good player with that character can do it consistantly, it's no different than a character being easy but just as powerful.

[@VerkoAviarhidea]

@sesujin Well respectfully, by that logic, I'd argue that Xiaoyu and Kazuya would be the best characters in the game due to their near infinite skill expression, having better tools than lidia assuming both are used at maximum capacity. But I guess you didn't really say that Lidia *is* the best character, just one of the strongest, so that's fair enough.

[@jchoi9340]

@@sesujinI agree with this kind of logic. It would be precise to say Lidia is complex, not weak. She’s a character specialist type of character. Simple as that. I watch FightingGM and it’s the same with Lee Chaolan. Arslan Ash said he’s bottom 3, but if you know how to use Lee like FightingGM, he’s actually super strong. People just don’t understand the characters, as you cannot play them as you would more typical characters.

[@KingOfDarknessAndEvil]

One day we're gonna look back and this video and say "damn he was right"

[@solidkenjy]

I think this can be said of most of the characters in this game... and I think that is the Beauty of Tekken 8

[@Metalmanijak]

Delete this brotha EDIT: After watching the video here I my two cents and in short I couldnt disagree more. You saying that she is a well designed and fair character in most situations already throws her hard outside the top 10 and maybe even top 15. The only actual thing she has going for herself is the heat mixup we all know about and despite it being really strong I dont see how it in any way outshines something like Kumas heat where you will eat similar (if not larger) amounts of chip damage, without the need for gathering stacks beforehand. Similar opinion on the wall and oki, yes in a vacuum Lidia seems busted/unfair at the wall + oki, but is she truly any more busted than a Bryan, Xiaoyu, Kuma, Lili, Victor, etc. in a similar situation? I truly dont think so. Adressing the point of people not knowing Lidias counter play, I would argue that there are a lot of character specific ways her heat can be made almost a laughing matter. Juns and Asukas with their parries and cancans can blow up a Lidia in heat easily with a semi correct guess, characters like Xiaoyu, Hwoarang, Jin, etc. have built in answer to her heat with their quick sidestepping attacks, a character like Jack can use his heat smash to easily blow up a Lidia doing the mixup (even when she is in HAE),... and many more I dont even know about. Lidias tracking isnt a weakness that can be neutralized by something as simple as superior timing either. Yes, in the neutral it helps a lot, but during many and I mean many situations your combos, your "guaranteed followups", your TRACKING MOVES, etc. will simply whiff and there is not much you as a player can do to prevent it. Thats Tekken 8 in a nutshell I know, almost nothing ever working, but thats still an issue Lidia has to deal with where other, more consistent characters do not. I personally dont think she is bottom 5 like many others do, but I dont see how she can be considered even top 15 in her current state. Weak tracking, weak and limited lows, combo damage and carry are neither impressive, her heat utility has to be built up over multiple rounds, many moves with literally 0 usage that are more of a liability than anything else, one of the worst/most risky 15 frame launchers in the game, no panic buttons, her rewards for landing a successful counter hit is usually a followup heat engager where most of the cast gets more meaty rewards in full combos for similar,... Like I said just my 2 cents, but it is what it is.

[@xpoison_kingx9821]

I’ve heard about downplaying, but overplaying is crazy 😭

[@sesujin]

I talked to you about this on discord, so I'm mainly replying because this has so many likes to give my perspective for anyone reading this comment. To the first point, Lidia's oki is absolutely more busted than the characters you listed, it's probably the best in the game. Lidia can very easily deal 100+ damage after a wallsplat, remain +, and loop it until you die with + on block mids that threaten a wallsplat and lows that do 33 damage, are +6 on hit, and -13 on block. Here's one example of it on a GoD: www.twitch.tv/sesujin/clip/MuddyAssiduousSkirretLeeroyJenkins-4LEH-_Mud-4Ldc4K This is an entire GoD match that could be fit into a 60 second twitch clip without a single combo. And this isn't just a cherry picked one off example, this is a fairly common situation to happen with Lidia. Being able to end entire games so quickly without even a single launcher should not be possible, and a lot of that can be attributed to the insane oki. And to talk about the character specific counterplay, there are a lot of ways for Lidia to deal with that too. Here's another example of Lidia's rediculous oki, but also how quickly she can turn around a game because of 1 mistimed parry www.twitch.tv/sesujin/clip/ArborealGleamingMangoBleedPurple-M_6v0imcT8ZZJRym When it comes to parries, yes, Lidia can lose to them if you're being predictable with your offense, but the punishment she can dish out if the parry whiffs is rediculous. On top of that, when in heat, WR1, ff2, and 1+2 all go through parries, so you can continue your offense and don't have to wait around and bait out parries or power crushes like most character would have to do. This is something that really sets Lidia apart from other characters, and why the vulnerability she has from parrys isn't as much of a detriment as it would be with most other characters. And to your thrid point, I completely disagree with it, you absolutely can mitigate tracking weaknesses with timing. I know this because my main fighting game is SoulCalibur, delayed verticals is the one and only way you can properly deal with stepduck in that game if you don't have a hori mid, and the way that works in SoulCalibur is exactly the same way it works here with Lidia. If you couldn't do that, every character in SC6 without a hori mid would be unplayable, but I've been doing delayed js 66b with Tira for 6 years and she's considered a top 10 character even without any proper options to deal wtih stepduck. In fact, there was a time where Tira was considered competitively unviable because of a lot of the exact same issues that Lidia has, but after players spent more time with the game she shot up and is now considered top 10. Simply put, even though it's an issue that other characters don't have to deal with as much (and that is definitely true), that doesn't mean the solution can't be consistent enough to mitigate the issue. I have enough time spent practicing this in SoulCalibur since it's a core fundimental skill in that game that I have no issues whatsoever applying it in Tekken too, and I have no issues with opponents sidestepping me that I wouldn't have with any other character in the game.

[@adun3]

I like Lidia. I like that she's a female fighter that actually looks the part, and the whole attack into stance or stance into stance thing looks cool however awkward it may be at times. I just wish she had something more than B1 or FF2 to get something going on. I have no problem with her flying under the radar and I expect massive whining when she gets buffed in season 2. Good stuff!

[@sesujin]

I really hope they buff some of her attack that are unusable because of the weird frame data (anyone remember that CAT 4,3+4 is a move???). I love having options, I want to be able to use more stuff with Lidia too!

[@YoshiExcel]

Everyone out there downplaying their characters and you are here making a case for your character being top 10. That is respectable. You really make her look like a top character!

[@sesujin]

Thank you! I've been working hard to try and make Lidia look good (I just want more people to play her so she gets popular and I can buy a Lidia plushe or something)

[@jchoi9340]

Your passion and enthusiasm for Lidia actually makes me wonder if I should ever give her a try. Tekken 8 is the first entry I’m trying to seriously learn after button mashing prior entries. I learned Kazuya, Paul, and Jin, which don’t have many stances, but then got into Steve who has a ton of stances. What I came to realize is the stance complexity can be overwhelming, but once you take the time to understand it, it’s satisfying and these characters can be way stronger than most people think because they’re speaking from a lack of understanding. The mind games are more complex, which makes them hard to pilot.

[@mr_fil_ttv]

Love your passion for her. Keep going. I fully agree with you, she is underestimated but this might save "us" from nerfs...

[@sesujin]

Thank you! I feel confident that she's going to get buffed. The general consensus is that Lidia is both weak and has a low pick rate, that's really all Bamco is looking at I think. My only fear is that if she does get buffed, all of a sudden a ton of people are gonna start playing her and that will put a target on her back for nerfs.

[@royalbavarian2040]

Subbed, great video.

[@Redarshia]

I'm really impressed with this video ad the level of effort you've put into this character. Nice work brother.

[@MexicoArcadeGamers]

man You put so much passion on Lidia and see you with that energy I really love to chose her and remember when I play your words and tech, so I really want to Improve my skills with Lidia at least to Tekken Lord . I don't Want to be a Copy of your Lidia I want print my own style but with a good base. and I have to say my Lidia's Base starts here.

[@stavros3676]

You extensively explain how many options she has to shut down what the opponent does and while I agree that makes her good, I dunno if a character who has to think in T8 is top 10. I do believe she can be top 15 from the stuff ive seen in your guides but top 10 includes characters that play themselves to a degree, where you can autopilot attacks that work in every situation. Drag, Nina, Jin, Yoshi, Shaheen, Claudio etc etc all have to think way less and have an easier time dealing with problems than what you show with Lidia. I am no Lidia player and im free to be wrong about this but I agree with you more on the 11th - 14th placement on a tier list Glad youre here to enlighten everyone on all this cool Lidia shit, your guides make her look really cool

[@versatilelord8893]

Shaheen, Claudio, & Nina do not play themselves bro Stop with the nonsense. Just because you see characters at the top of tier lists doesn’t make them auto pilot by default Exceptions being yoshi, Jin and dragunov tho

[@stavros3676]

@versatilelord8893 I hard disagree. Nina df1 plays the game for her, she has pokes with strong dmg and frames, insane combo dmg, very high skill ceiling with the amount of stuff she has but thet dumbed her down a lot in T8. Claudio has easy and strong ways to approach, very high dmg, b1 best homing for space control, is very alround as well. Shaheen, same bullshit, has strong neutral buttons super good running move and also puts you in a vortex by just existing with uf1 and slide

[@livingashtree1942]

​​@@versatilelord8893 Stop believing that characters just play themselves. That's just utter nonsense. Tekken 8 is a pretty balanced game with the only exception being Yoshi. But pretty much every character has a shot against eacgother. It's mostly all up to the fightingstyle of the character besides the ability and knowledge of the one playing with them.

[@versatilelord8893]

@ I can kinda agree with Nina being sort of auto pilot w the neutral in the df1,2 that jails. That shit is way too strong & her heat smash is cheap as hell with all that pushback. I still don’t think she plays herself tho Claudio does have amazing buttons but that doesn’t mean he’s playing himself. He has to do a lot of conditioning to open up opponents since he doesn’t have 50/50 to threaten with like that. Shaheen is the probably most non auto pilot character in this game. You have to hard read way too damn much on defense & he forces the player to interact with the game on the deepest level since he’s all about ground game having a good neutral doesn’t mean he’s playing himself. These tools don’t automatically win you games unless the pilot is doing proper conditioning & spacing to set that tone. Same goes for slide & uf1 Superman thrust. These aren’t just spam and win tools like the stupidity you’re implying. They don’t work unless the pilot sets the tone first with the small tekken

[@versatilelord8893]

@ and yes shaheen’s running 2 is solid but it’s very linear and not the fastest either. That’s not something that you can abuse

[@xpoison_kingx9821]

In my honest opinion I’m TE with Lidia and I don’t think she’s anywhere near top 10 or 15, Lidias main gimmick relies on a diminishing heat bar every round she is still super linear and requires you to play at “110%” to make her work as you said. Meanwhile the top 10-15 characters don’t require you to be so locked in to succeed. moves naturally track and you have to play with less reads and pure guessing to beat sidesteps with top tiers. Thats the main thing holding Lidia back how linear she is and her mediocre lows. Lidia main character design still plays regular Tekken while in heat she plays Tekken 8, Lidia does good damage most characters in Tekken 8 do damage but her damage doesn’t set her apart, Lee was also put bottom teir but he has really high CH combo damage. It’s everything else, Lee in heat adds nothing new and good for him it’s kinda like a direct opposite of Lidia, Lee is good naturally, good damage good CH options, Ect, but Lidia is mid in normal state Monster in heat… hence low tier (I love Lidia) she’s my favorite character but buffing some of her lows would be amazing, atleast

[@xpoison_kingx9821]

Another note, regarding the closing statement of the video, I really think that because the character isn’t played or people don’t know the matchup, wouldn’t that make the character higher in tier list that would cause Lidia to be higher than what people think because they have no clue what’s she doing and causes you to get blown up, it kinda goes opposite to your final take, people don’t know the matchup but still put her bottom tier, that means that not knowing how she works still isn’t a issue to people hence why she’s bottom 5 in most people teir lists. Atleast that’s how I think about it I could be completely wrong about this take

[@ryanhass8716]

That was what I'm thinking too. I'm only half way through the video, but a lot of this seems to be that in any given situation you have strong options, but you also have catastrophic options, and you don't know what it's going to be until you throw it. You can make more educated guesses, but it's still a guess. Still, I consider her mid tier, personally (though I seldom play online, so my opinion isn't worth much lol). I like where she's at. To the point of the video, I like that you need to use your brain when playing her, I wish more characters in the roster were designed that way.

[@BotchaLoa4]

I dont need to watch the video i agree wholeheartedly Edit: example 1 is literally how i deal with tracking issues Edit #2: This video is actually really good and detailed

[@spooky4223]

I discovered early on when watching you play, that your understanding of your character was different. This became even more apparent when I i tried switching to Lidia. I think alot of players myself included find a certain niche in a character game plan that suits us well and we stick to that. The addition of mechanics like heat alongside character strengths (for instance Lidia's heaven and earth) allow players to streamline their understanding of a character. I think this optimization ultimately harms our ability to adapt. Fightinggm is another guy who I think has a different level of understanding when it comes to this game. Also I'm by no means good. Just a Flame Ruler whose analyzing stuff.

[@sesujin]

I think that's largely attributed to Tekken not being my main game, but instead SoulCalibur. A lot of how I approach and play Lidia I take from how I play SoulCalibur 6. Most people playing Tekken 8 are instead using Tekken 7 as their baseline to understand the game and how to play the characters. I think the different perspective I have helps me a lot to both come up with new ideas and avoid relying on easy characters or mechanics to play the game at my best.

[@zelbeis30]

lidia was one of the reasons i decided to stick with t8 friend got me t8 and i wasnt super into it (not a fighting game guy) and I love how she has a lot of tools to respond to how people play, Im in mighty ruler rn and being able to stance into mix ups n stuff is really fun for me lol your videos helped out a lot from showing her strengths to understanding her weakness and figuring out how to mitigate them I dont know shit about top 10 but i'd say lidia is up there if youre good at adapting ( maybe im talking out of my ass cuz t8 is my first fighting game i sunk time into shrug)

[@IzNebula]

I feel this is the same situation with Heihachi. A lot of people put him low on the tierlist b/c of his linearity. While it is true that he is linear, there are ways to circumvent that problem that many people don't bother to try. His Fujin stance extensions may look linear outside of the homing armor but just delaying Fujin 2 extensions slightly makes it track his weak side to the point sidestep ducking makes Fujin 2 a tracking normal hit i15 launcher that's -10 on block. Heihachi's staple df12 just frame has a timing that is tight enough where stepping it has to be done on a read b/c waiting for the 2 extension to come out to do it on reaction is not possible, if you try to react to it, you are too late. His ff2 also tracks a ton and the punishes on that move are very minimal for the reward he gets, so it's a viable move to use for it's tracking potential alone. Maybe I am wrong, but these are just a few things I picked up while trying him out. I don't disagree he is far more linear than the average character, but with his damage potential and the fact some moves that seem to be linear at first glance can track well, it makes him scary to deal with imo.

[@sesujin]

I played Heihachi to TE and I agree with you 100%. People have really been playing Heihachi like he was in T7, and I think that accounts for a lot of his most talked about issues. Really, though, sidestepping against Heihachi is really scarry. Look at moves like u/f2 and f3, both of those moves have fantastic tracking, give you a free heat engager on hit, and are hit confirmable. In u/f2's case, delaying it will allow you to realign with the opponent much like what I talk about in this video with Lidia. Even in stance, people talk a lot about Heihachi's moves losing to sidestep in stance, but if you delay the electric it will also realign with a sidestepping opponent and launch them with proper timing. I think that this concept of delay timing to realign with sidestep is simply not something a lot of tekken players know how to do because it's more of a general 3D fighting game skill rather than a Tekken skill. It's not very relevant to Tekken in most instances, but it is relevant in games like SoulCalibur and Virtua Fighter, and that's why I know how to do it well. I also think most tekken players are still trying to play the old style of Tekken, and are still adapting to the new game, which is what causes this sort of discussion.

[@anna-sobieska7151]

In french forum (i'm french and i hope my commentary will be readable x) ) community, no one consider her "issues" and i regullary see some players at all level complaining about her "oh, she is so dumb and gimmickliy characters" or "my opponent side stepping me all the time, need buff", for some reason, we cas see everything and its opposite about her even pro don't understand her, Bandai Namco will overbuff her, and that's will be a gigantic underwear party and i'll take SO MUCH FUN MOUAHAHAAAA I don't understand how we can consider Lidia bottom 2 or bottom 3 characters in TL. I regullary see some players pick her in tournament (for example the Paragonline, i watch regullary this tournament series)... Thank you for this vid, i'll share this in french forum and i waitin' for the GIGA BUFF, because Lidia is TO HONEST, RIGHT ? x)

[@sesujin]

I agree, I think that Lidia is going to be this game's Geese or Akuma or Feng in the sense that she will be seen as low/mid tier for months while secretly being an insane top tier character. If they do end up buffing her, it'll be a really fun time for all of us Lidia players :)

[@MexicoArcadeGamers]

nice video bro I only play tekken for this character is very cool, I never touch another character on tekken 8 cuz I want to go only with Lidia. where I can find the sheet of lidia basic and fundamentals?

[@roosifee181]

I mained Jun got to the online rank bushin with her then switched to Lidia. And I have to admit it but she's not as easy to use compared to Jun. I already got Lidia to Tekken king but I find it easier to win using Jun eve after the time I spent using Lidia. So I put Jun above Lidia

[@javierperezmerino9457]

Really good video. I think you have many fair points, specially about people not understanding what Lidia's gameplay is. However, i think there are 3 things that hold her away from being at the same level than characters like Jin, for example. First, her poking is kinda bad in both frames and hitboxes. Second, you have to build up his heat utility, which can be painful sometimes (especially against rushdown characters) Third, without heat, wolf stance is a horrible way to open up opponents. I have seen your video (which was incredibly helpful btw) but Lidia has to mind game several times in order to acces Wolf stance, by first going into Horse either with db3 or ff2. Even if the risk is low (like eating a jab string while Horse 4) its kinda painful to see how i manage the opponents SS timing and keep out, how i mindgame throw jabs, throws and dick jabs... only to get read on the wolf stance mix up. Maybe its skill issue, but opening oponents up with Lixia feeks like torture and not rewarding. All of that said, we can comfortly say that she is around top 20, since her advantages are way bigger than the disadvantages. Goid video and have a nice day/noon/ night whatever

[@abra2133]

People sleep on lidia's strength because "oOo bad lows oOo" but ignore her sheer pressure and chip that make her not need any lows really

[@filmrecorder5717]

You still need her lows in my experience. I’m top of bushin or so with Lidia, but you still need to throw the lows to open people up that perma stand block. It’s tough at higher ranks still, her pressure and chip is great in heat but you still need her lows to open up heat engagers

[@liu3chan]

People sleep on Lidia because playing a character that requires choosing a fitting approach to a situation is hard to do when you can't rematch more than 2 times. So instead of adapting to your opponent it's more comfortable to just play oonga boonga characters and spam bullshit.

[@KingToshin]

Got this video in my recommendations... As a Lidia player, I thought this was bait and you were just gonna schizo rant... But nah you were spitting LMAO, I took a lot of mental notes to up my gameplay while watching this and I appreciate all the demonstrations for certain situations. Subbed and will be tuning in! 💪

[@sesujin]

Thank you! I hope you find them useful in your games!

[@liu3chan]

The problem is not being able to rematch more. I really can't figure out how to approach a situation when before I even realize what's happening I'm already back in matchmaking.

[@sesujin]

Infinite rematch needs to come back in some capacity in the near future. How is anyone supposed to learn matchups or how to adapt in this game with a bo3 system?

[@drakon1230]

Guess what

[@JoSteezo]

I skipped around but all I heard was you must condition your opponent to win with Lidia.

[@PSNDarkSouL]

She ain’t no damn top 10 lmao. Her heat mix is cheesy but that is quite literally all she has that’s a real threat. Her ff2 can be dealt with, her stance mix ups can be dealt with, she can be punished fairly. Id say she’s in a good spot. Im a GOD with a few characters and i actually just got her to TGS. She ain’t nothin compared to top 10

[@madfox58]

I firmly believe most of the roster in T8 CAN BE S tier as lons as the person piloting them is on point. The only difference is executions and just matchup knowledge per player. Never forget Rangchu won a tournament with Panda. Tier lists are just self gatekeeping at this point, just play who you like and keep improving.

[@madfox58]

I CALLED IT!!! HAHAHA

[@MarkB-zw3rl]

Lidia is a monster in heat with 3 stacks. Shes linear so db3 d2 b4 should be used for sidesteppers, overall good if used properly.

[@CeCeDot]

Maybe along the way people will see lidias strength but that might be more in the long run competitive wise

[@sesujin]

I think a time will come where people see how strong Lidia is. It happened with Feng in T7, it already happened with Yoshi after a few months of T8 being out, there will come a point where people discover Lidia. The question is how long will that take?

[@CeCeDot]

@sesujin might just take one person that actually performs well in a competitive setting, although im not sure there really are any right now

[@blueye95]

Honestly in the first few minutes your argument already falls apart. 'You always have to play 110%, you always have to know what the opponent is going to do.' Every character in the game will be broken if you know exactly what the opponent will do and pick the optimal button for it. Yes Lidia has answers to a lot of situations, however it feels like the top 10 characters have better risk/reward on their buttons so they can be 'wrong' or 'close enough' more often while Lidia seems to die for it. Easy example is Jin's d2. Good range, -14 CH launcher low that might as well have blue trails for tracking. Lidia d2/db3 dont come close to the usefulness of Scourge. db3 has less range and is launch punishable, d2 has less range and less reward. Ofc Lidia's lows can also be setup especially if the opponent is scared of ducking but that requires a lot more effort. More effort is mental stack The mental stack will be so high that even the highest level players will be maxed out and fall apart during longer sets/days. At some point execution/difficulty will matter especially in tournament settings due to mental stack/ease of execution/nerves so it cant be discarded that easily. Its true people havent seen the optimal Lidia yet so she is being undervalued.

[@SxnoJay]

can u share the spreadsheet and any other notes you have on her?

[@AleksandrKlimanev]

Is she a top 10 char? Well, during heat in level 3, yes, outside of that, no

[@Reseng]

I've been saying that she shouldn't just be played like an unga bunga stance character since BEFORE she came out and no one has really picked up what I've meant. People's argument is always "well the mixup is really strong so of course that's how people will play her." This works for most people in a FT2 but if anyone labs the matchup they know how to option select your offense and will pick you apart. People are not thinking about the next level.

[@liu3chan]

Well, you can't play more than 3 matches with people online so there is no next level.

[@Reseng]

@liu3chan I think you've missed the point, so let me try again. Because of the FT2 format for ranked and quick matches you are incentivized to just run your rushdown and leave. The "next level" I was referring to is when the rushdown flowchart doesn't work because someone knows the matchup. You'll see this all over up until gold ranks or so.

[@sesujin]

I agree with you 100%. The FT2 format has stunted both the growth of Lidia players, and other players' ability to learn the matchup. It's like I said, why not just throw out a free + on block hopkick if the opponent isn't going to deal with it? And on the other side, if you are a Lidia player and run across the 1/100 person that actually knows the matchup and how to option select your offense, how do you learn to adapt to that in a FT2? Simple answer is you can't, and it took me a long time playing with viewers outside of the FT2 format to get a proper understanding on how to deal with that. It's no wonder why so many Lidia players do the same gimmicky flowcharts and can't adapt well.

[@Roczamillion7777]

What is that spreadsheet? Does anyone know where I can find that??

[@timezero8409]

I second that!

[@sesujin]

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BtGOZ6lrecGYXg63T8m4j824YmtVFbItS4IXk5pEEh8/edit?gid=52378545#gid=52378545

[@Nawaf6820]

The issue with lidia is she is pretty linear, i mean, like approaching the opponent from range 2.5 and 3. But for me, after learning from you and other lidia mains, i don't think she's in Top 10 but easily top 15 easy Chip damage is amazing. Punishment is awesome. Counter hits awesome defensive she's very good. But in general, i like the character if she's top 10 or not i enjoy playing her.

[@sesujin]

I do too! No matter where she is on the tier list, I'll always be playing Lidia. I had more games with Lidia a month after her release than all other characters in the game combined, I will never stop playing her.

[@BlackStar300]

The mental stack here to counter all other character or user engagements is through the roof. You mention you have to think to play the neutral and win outside of heat, but so many other characters and options can snuff her out with less thinking involved. You have 60 seconds to assess a round and the player's intention and run through all your option selects etc whereas a drag player can easily press and delete you or a King or a plethora of other characters. Even characters like Alisa are so easy to run. I don't think she's as low as what people place, but you're saying she's like S tier. Would be interesting for you to attend EVO and play against a plethora of top tier players to really showcase the quality of Lidia as a whole if nobody pilots her well. The fact that the average Lidia player can easily get jabbed out, sidestepped, throw interrupted, powercrushed is ridiculous. She has terrible lows and a one of the worst power crushes in the game. Her throws game is ass as well. She has very few redeeming qualities that make her a contender for a top 10 player, but I do agree her heat needs be nerfed. Do you think you can win EVO with Lidia with how you pilot her? Since you mention the pros at the highest level not understanding her play and strengths?

[@sesujin]

I'm not a competitive player, and I have no desire to compete because I think Tekken 8 sucks. I absolutely could not win evo, I don't have the tournament experience to even come close. I do think though I could place respectably based on how I perform against top placing evo players online (though online is a completely different environment and mindset of course). At a smaller major tournament like frosty faustings I think I could have a chance of getting top 32 if I got a lucky bracket, but that's just a guess.

[@YoBoryy]

Bruh what we overplaying now???

[@jakemitchell3599]

L take but your Lisia guides are very good.

[@Thutch32]

We need that spreadsheet

[@sesujin]

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BtGOZ6lrecGYXg63T8m4j824YmtVFbItS4IXk5pEEh8/edit?gid=52378545#gid=52378545

[@haruaki292]

poeple do be saying lidia is bad by saying that she's only good in heat but trash outside of heat

[@taco_sensei]

I actually agree that Lidia is strong, a lot stronger than people give her credit! But some characters are just in another universe... So I would not say top 10

[@Ock_mantis]

Been seeing and getting alot of this discourse. And idk wtf they even trying to say but. Im starting to get alot of people coming at me for playing a "DLC" character lol. Had one dude tell me im pay to win. And im like...my guy..this ant COD wtf lol. And second it ant my fault you dont got the character for whatever reason. That's literally your personal problem. And lastly if you did play the character. pay to win would be the last thing on ur mind. No, you probably would be saying the character sux. I say all that to say. It's crazy how so many will claim shes weak, say they dont care about her...but will moan about her sooo hard lol. Truly a unique character in so many ways. And comes across sooo simple. But gets soo much more complex then you would ever think.

[@sesujin]

I had a GoD Lee player get mad at me for playing Lidia because she was a "stance mixup character." The mental gymnastics some of these people will go through astounds me.

[@Ock_mantis]

@sesujin it's s so odd lol

[@VDViktor]

" This is also a reason why I think that Lidia, Yoshimitsu, Xiaoyu, and even to an extent Nina should be top 10 characters." .....Nina.....TO AN EXTENT? She's the strongest, #1 character in the game, tf are you on??

[@RichiePajooh-r8i]

so as a shaheen main your saying i should main shaheen

[@Merond293]

Where link to stance sheet?

[@sesujin]

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BtGOZ6lrecGYXg63T8m4j824YmtVFbItS4IXk5pEEh8/edit?gid=52378545#gid=52378545

[@Spazek]

It's her birthday today

[@NoWBrian]

bring lidia to the tour man... let the universe know the muscle woman...

[@sesujin]

Spending money to go to tournaments is not something I'm interested in. I don't like this game, and I don't enjoy playing in tournaments, so it would feel like a waste of time and money to me.

[@GuvXIV]

10 characters lidia is not better than: dragunov, nina, yoshimitsu, alisa, jin, ling, bryan, feng, Shaheen, law. Interesting video to watch though 🫡

[@liu3chan]

Reina, Victor and King are better than her.

[@sesujin]

I personally think Lidia is stronger than both Jin and Bryan, similar in strength to Xiao.

[@jordanroberts8270]

You actually use the part of karate that most these guys don’t even realize she embodies the best in karate and that’s the ability to be disciplined and precise karate is useless if your not accurate and lidias kit in this game as a lot of other characters do embodies that quality of the real life martial art same could be said for dragunov (sambo) leroy (wing chun) jun (minus the lasers)(aikido) Hwroang is iffy because in taekwondo your normally more defensive with the style but his character uses it very aggressively

[@jordanroberts8270]

But if you ran into a true spacing master and defensive hwroang it would throw most people off

[@chacazulo1987]

Jun is non dlc though dude, Lidia is dlc. Of course ppl gonna knkw more about Jun than Lidia. Not everyone bought the season pass, or has bought dlc characters.

[@meysamsamadi7587]

Leemishima beat the shit outta everybody with her in a tournament a while ago

[@RedSkies30]

What was your tier for her on t7?

[@versatilelord8893]

I played her in tekken 7 in her nerfed state after she launched and I thought she was nowhere near as bad as ppl said she was. She’s an amazing character if know how to play frame tight w her Maybe my understanding of Lidia is really solid and that’s why I think that.

[@sesujin]

In Tekken 7 I considered her the only competitively unviable character post nerf because her HAE stance transition was reactable. It make her rage drive borderline useless, her HAE stance completely unusable, and CF0 stance useless because the whole point of it was to cover the HAE transition, which doesn't matter because the stance transition was reactable so all the options in CF0 effectively did nothing. Add on top of that the nerfs to hellsweep making the clean hit so small it wouldn't trigger on Feng and bears when they were standing still, she had no effective way to do much of anything if the opponent held back. The way they wanted you to play her was set up for a mixup out of HAE, but because you couldn't do that against anyone that knew the matchup the entire character didn't function. She was a terrible broken mess.

[@RedSkies30]

@@sesujin I agree 1000% bro...she's too honest in a game of broken characters lol but damn I still love to use her because she is so technical...in T6, she would be a favorite tho...

[@dominationwarrior79]

all this all on her birthday

[@Johnnycagea]

I think in your hands, any character on the roster is top 10. You said it many times in this video, "If we get a read on that-" Exactly. Your insticts are elite, that's why playing this style with Lidia works well for you. For someone who doesn't read opponents so well, Lidia's definitely nowhere near top 10. For example, a well timed SSR duck beats ALL HAE options. But most humans won't be able to discern the opponent doing this before pressing a button. So yeah, B1 or FF2 is the counter to that, but I can barely react to a snake edge, let alone make that read in the time we have to make it.

[@Vereillia]

Hi mom

[@abra2133]

Brother it was 6 minutes XD

[@sesujin]

Hello!

[@philippregala997]

Dude we are supposed to be downplaying our main!

[@ashish322]

Have to disagree with this one chief

[@rainkage773]

Yea delete this, ff2 pressure is useless you can duck jab and launch the armor, she is linear, lili destroys her. She's crap outside of heat. Her neutral game is shitty. 😂😂 She is bottom 5. And pros are pros for a reason mate.

[@kudjaremastered3362]

bro legit made a 30 min video. Yes dude we know she is strong, and no, no one wants to play her cause her gameplay is boring