Yes, old MMORPGs were actually better.

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Old MMORPGs have made a huge comeback in the form of Old School Runescape and World of Warcraft classic. But are the massive player bases just there because of nostalgia? Is there some other reason new MMOs can never seem to find their footing and take a chunk of the market?
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In this video, we're taking a trip down memory lane to explore why old school MMORPGs like World of Warcraft Classic, Old School RuneScape, and Guild Wars were better than the newer MMORPGs such as New World, Ashes of Creation, and WoW Dragonflight. Join us as we delve into the aspects that made these classic games so special and why they continue to hold a special place in the hearts of gamers.
Join me as we celebrate the golden era of MMORPGs and discuss what made these old-school titles stand the test of time. Whether you're a veteran player or new to the MMORPG genre, this video will provide valuable insights into why some of the classics still shine brightly in the ever-evolving world of online gaming.
00:00 Intro
4:23 why mmo fun
8:16 why new mmo bad
15:09 uh oh microtransactions
19:58 old mmo good
29:22 are mmo doomed
#mmorpg

[@IdylOnTV]

Grab Atlas VPN for just $1.83/mo + 3 months extra before the BIG DEAL deal expires: get.atlasvpn.com/Idyl 🤠

[@roxaskinghearts]

As a mmorpg player who wasnt broke final fantasy xi beats wow runescape and final fantasy xiv specially back in the day nasomi doesnt capture it private server that i dont recommend because it doesnt have shanttoto or the newer dlc that is worth your time tho nowadays the only game worth anyones time is genshin impact and buy once games like dark souls sly gravity rush final fantasy est est est

[@tomasdaman2]

The VPN offer is fucky though, cuz it makes you pay around 100-200 dollars all at one payment though. not 1.99 a month or whatever. Shiddy advertisement in my opinion.

[@marielcarey4288]

​@@tomasdaman2any youtube sponsor for a vpn service is a scam tbh

[@saberruntv]

gonna be honest. the quit moment when there is too much to do happens to me all the time when I get membership on runescape.

[@roxaskinghearts]

@@saberruntv yeah at that point its why people move back to minecraft or single player games that are more digestible what is this goal 2 billion something or finally getting 99 everything see when do you stop is the real question people should ask themselves 99 everything best in slot gear quests done is that enough for you to call beaten ofc not no one beats runescape runescape beats you into submission this game can only be won by people who are willing to spend the time and money to beat it and even then they ask for more

[@JoshStrifeHayes]

I demand a general election.

[@FeiFongWang]

We had one, yet you seemed too "busy" to show up to it. Be glad with your position as Vice President of mmos.

[@regulator18E]

I almost missed this comment, it was on my 2nd screen

[@twispi]

I don't know why you'd want one. Nobody votes for the Vice President. It's usually the president they're voting for. The VP is just kinda there.

[@ThisisCitrus]

Do you have to comment on every single video about MMOs? It's like going into peoples Twitch and advertising your own channel.

[@Andrew-gn9qp]

In Tolkien's world, there is a lot of emphasis on the journey, the travel, and this gives a sense of vastness and depth to the world that they inhabit. Quick travel destroys all of that.

[@knivesron]

quick travel is just the worst

[@ironfist7789]

Eagles have entered the chat. Eagles have left the chat.

[@grapesofhypocrisy9842]

@@ironfist7789 Someone played the new river hobbit intro

[@timestimesx7535]

People are short sighted and very demanding. I feel like a game like WoW classic can't be made today just because the same people have much more influence. WoW Retail is in big part a product of player feedback.

[@knivesron]

To add to this, dungeon siege had no quick travel and that game is amazing, I think that's why I liked classic wow so much because it was a massive persistent world with little load times.

[@Microtardz]

It's actually simple to explain why old MMORPGs were better when you come from any kind of development background. Old MMORPGs were highly experimental passion projects. Overtime companies naturally began to track player counts, player retention, player bouncing, player spending habits, etc. Tracking these things isn't bad per se. It's when you use them to make decisions that actually impact game play that it starts to become questionable. One of the extremely common tactics for player retention that you see in these games these days, is that new expansions start with long progression curves at the start. But then a month or 2 in, the developers add "catch up mechanics" for the regular casual player base to essentially skip to end game. This maximizes player retention on both the hardcore gamers who are grinding out these systems on day 1, and the casual gamers who are just very slowly progressing and enjoying their time. The problem is, eventually your playerbase is going to start realizing you're intentionally min/maxxing them this way. And the moment they overcome their FOMO, they're gone. Period. They're not coming back. Because when they try to come back they remember alllllll of the things they missed. Or all of the dailies they're going to have to do again. They remember how bad it was to want to play something else, but to still have to spend 2 hours in your game doing XYZ because having long dailies made player retention numbers look good. What ends up happening is that it looks like you're growing for a while. But in reality a large subset of the player base is rapidly heading towards a permanent burn out thanks to your decisions. Now repeat this for years and learn nothing from it. That's modern day wow.

[@terdroblade]

They weren't better in any way shape or form. What was different was the community. Why? Because we had NO resources, at least nothing that can be compared to what we have today. If you wanted answers you had to talk to people. If you think group finder tools killed communication you are delusional. The community did it to themselves. I've been playing since vanilla and from my point of view, almost nothing changed regarding the community. Guilds are still the same, voice is even more popular than it was before, it's easier to play with whoever you want, no matter the faction/server, making friends is easier then ever for this reason as well. Difficult content still requires A LOT of communication. What HAS changed is the communities willingness to talk about stuff that they can google and not take 15min out of someone else's time for them to explain. This has nothing to do with game design and has everything to do with information availability. If you want proof take a look at secret hunting in wow, the community goes ballistic when they get a sniff of something undiscovered. Everyone working together to figure stuff out. It's the same as it was almost 20 years ago.

[@spencers4121]

It was a new emerging market, and companies wanted to cash in on the subscription model. People think WoW launched a thousand ships, but in most cases it was the original EQ that did that. At the release of WoW, EQ peaked at 3+ million sales and over 500K subs. Of course WoW came in and shattered that, over the coming years. But a lot of games were being put into production before WoW showed everyone the player base they captured, and the mmo player base just wasn't there for all the other games. A lot of people aren't going to play more then 1 mmo, or be so quick to jump ship when a new one comes out. Not when you're so invested in time and social connections in the current one.

[@knivesron]

This is so true, omg how did I not realise this. No wonder I have 0 desire to go back to wow retail.

[@Goldenhand31]

theres no dailis that you need to catch up on DF

[@knivesron]

@@Goldenhand31 there is if you want to collect the stuff. Argent tournament, timeless isles, argus, assaults. There's heaps

[@gungan5822]

Flight paths are hands down the best travel system. Flying over a zone you haven't been and being able to see what level you need to be to actually go there. Constant reminders of the actual scope of the world.

[@kaydens6964]

You can also plan your meals around it.

[@veritasabsoluta4285]

Holy shit so true

[@danielandrews3878]

Flight paths is flying, just on predetermined routes. It actually makes so much less sense to have flight paths but no actual flying.

[@gungan5822]

@@danielandrews3878 No it doesn't because player flying trivializes zone content, and the world becomes empty because nobody walks anywhere anymore.

[@danielandrews3878]

@@gungan5822 that's totally a subjective opinion, because players will only walk on roads just to go from one place to another, not for social interaction. Yes, in questing zones they will be on foot, but that will be 90% same with flight as well. Also, since we had the "awesome" classic adventure, as an alliance player I saw maybe 1 or 2 groups of players going SFK, never ever saw one for Wailing Caverns. So no, people don't want world travelling and social interaction. It is exactly as that Blizz employee said, you think that you want but you don't. To the letter.

[@c4ke_rs]

Crazy how you went from making subpar plugins to becoming the president of mmorpgs, congrats man

[@wengeance8962]

self-elected predsident*

[@hershmysson]

@@wengeance8962 I'd vote on him.

[@sporeham1674]

@@wengeance8962 Nuhuh, I voted for him.

[@tylerw9609]

Plugins?

[@connorlilliott3713]

​@@tylerw9609for Runelite

[@MissyMousey]

You can't have peaks without valleys! It's a fact of life and it's what makes these older MMOs better. Without a little bit of struggle or inconvenience, you are robbed of any real satisfaction from your progression. I just wish more people wanted this so new MMOs can be good again, but people will usually take instant gratification over delayed gratification, not realizing what they lose in this bargain.

[@HeroesOfFreeSpeech]

Exactly right.

[@RubberTag]

True true.. and the gambling brain that they try to exploit to max is also what people should not want but yeah.. Loot boxes, RNG on RNG on RNG

[@Shmandalf]

Really looking forward to what Ashes of Creation brings to the table because of this. They genuinely seem to want to stick to older design philosophies that made MMOs great to begin with. Whether they nail that feeling or not remains to be seen, though, but I'm optimistic about it.

[@velikostoyanov2804]

@@RubberTag yeah and ppl started using the RNG as a reason way too often in the past years.... what do you mean rng? the whole mmorpg genre is circling around rng since it is creation.... To get the legendary item u have 1% chance... isnt that rng?

[@Darkvega2k7]

Lmao...no.

[@gKaasboer]

Biggest difference for me is the social aspect of MMO's. We were all kids back then, there was not a lot of information to be found online (or atleast I didn't know how to find it) and people just did random stuff and socialize with eachother. Everyone was more social and engaged with each other, asking help, finding a clan, doing a boss fight without a tutorial for the first time.

[@knivesron]

nowdays your lucky to get even a "hi". might as well be playing a sp game at this point the mmo part of rpg's is long dead

[@ignatiushazzard]

​@@knivesronidk I talk to random people for no reason in my mmo of choice and people are usually pretty friendly.

[@knivesron]

@@ignatiushazzard I do too. And in most the ppl who talk back are friendly. But the chatter is nothing like it used to be. I.e. barrens chat. If you know you know

[@gKaasboer]

@@knivesron yeah totally. Now it is all about the fastest money/experience per hour and maximalizing gameplay

[@knivesron]

@@gKaasboer god I miss the old days where ppl just had fun on their own without sophisticated systems to play games for them.

[@NemoN0body]

the issue with modern wow is the same issue it had since it stagnated in wotlk, every patch/expansion comes with insane powercreep that instantly wipes out all your progress and makes previous content worthless, effectively adding bloat, so imagine that compounded over 10+ years, the reason osrs works so well is because you can invest in your character for long term, you can quit the game for a year and come back near exactly where you left off in terms of power and progress, idk why but people keep missing this essential point.

[@schoo9256]

As a really new player, it's actually a bad experience as well. It's great to be able to play with my friends and keep up with them, BUT I cant tell you how many times I've gone back to play an older expansion to go explore the world or check out the storyline, and accidentally started a giant chunk of content that only existed to facilitate that expansion's endgame levelling--which doesn't even matter now. It's very frustrating, it wastes my time when levelling in new areas, and it feels like I'm not playing in a cohesive world. It also feels like the older content just doesn't even matter.

[@musthakila]

dude totally agreed, the last time i played WOW i was doing mithic raids to get powerfull items, then the new patch come out and just with 1 lame mission i gain a shoulder armor with the same ilv than the pants i gain in mithic raid, that was the reason i quit WOW it make no sense how easy the game become so hard

[@BlindBison]

Bump

[@Radbiker33357]

This is why ESO does thing a bit better. All content I thought scaled to your level, and DLC/expansions do as well. They give arguably better gear, but you aren’t forced to reset progress because of a new dlc. It’s just extra content to explore. But I haven’t played ESO in a while so maybe it’s different nowadays.

[@patrickhaley1312]

Being called a slur when you didn't shield someone at the exact right time. As a support player I felt that comment.

[@xbon1]

Makes the experience so much better.

[@Lucifronz]

I stopped being a support player a long time ago. I love being a support player, don't get me wrong, but there's so much shit in the game that it's easy for you to not know a mechanic and get someone killed. No one's reading the fucking dungeon journals, but when something goes wrong, suddenly you're expected to have done so. And when you get treated like shit just for not living up to some random jack-offs lofty expectations, you kinda just get sick of it. I could join a dungeon and heal someone and mostly not give a shit if it goes wrong, but on the other hand, what if I'm having a bad day? Not inviting that kinda toxic b.s. All the focus and hate can go on some other random pair (tanks and heals), I'm just trying to play the game. It's worse these days not because the community is more toxic, though it is, but because I don't play consistently in the game anymore. It used to be I'd subscribe two or three times an expansion and usually have fun with it building new characters and trying out all the older content I never got to participate in back in the day. Fun stuff. Then eventually I did all the old stuff and got caught up and I was doing current content. MoP that was fine, I loved the setting and quests. Legion that was fine, I loved all sorts of things about that expansion it's hard to even make a list. But then BfA? Shadowlands? Dragonflight? I'm just bored. I can barely justify subbing for ONE month, let alone two. So I'm usually behind on how everything works and what's going on. I joined a Shadowlands dungeon and didn't understand how one of the boss mechanics worked and no one bothered to mention that it was more complicated than most dungeon bosses (you have to face the boss or jump in their face or something when you're marked? Or line up between the enemy and the boss? I can't remember, who really cares?). They waited until the boss fight was over and we had to start over to explain it and were like "haven't you done this before!?" Well no, jackass, I haven't. Do you seriously think most people who play the game these days are experienced WoW players who binge this content all day? We've all left. Many of us to FFXIV, some of us to just do other shit. You're mostly dealing with people like me who sometimes come back to try the new content or, worse, new players who never understood it to begin with... and you take that attitude? No wonder the game is dead.

[@oleole3753]

Nostalgia might bring people in, but that feeling fades, and you either stick around because you enjoy the game, or you don't.

[@spiritwildfiregaming1975]

Indeed. At the end of the day if a game is fun it will be played. At most age can make it more difficult (harder to make it run/harder to get used to).

[@ExploreTogetherDaily]

Did MadSeasonShow say this?

[@vane909090]

No wonder this guy thinks old WoW is a great game...I mean he plays Runescape lmao.

[@spencers4121]

I played WoW for 6 years straight raiding etc, had a blast. I should add this wasn't my first mmo, I was playing others before WoW even came out. In the end I just got bored of it, I still miss healing as I mainly did that for 6 year. I did later go back and play Legion when it launched, I really enjoyed it. But after 6 or so months, that same boredom hit me again. That was the main reason I never bothered with Classic, I knew after 6 months it would just be the same old thing.

[@slapthedidgyr9769]

​@@vane909090old wow is so bad lmao

[@FriendlyHermit]

Funny to think that a $15 subscription fee used to make me feel ripped off, but now I wish the MMO would return to that model. It keeps a game running, allows for more content to get pumped out, and the game tends to retain a semblance of integrity.

[@everythingpony]

Its still 15$ a month wha?

[@FriendlyHermit]

@@everythingpony Oh, I don't know what they cost today. Back when I played WoW, I remember $15 (CAD) / monthly was pretty standard for MMOs.

[@blackestyang7528]

WoW Classic taught everyone "you think you do, but you don't"

[@cococock2418]

Quite the opposite acrually

[@akpunk1666]

@@cococock2418 lol

[@DrewPicklesTheDark]

I enjoyed it.

[@BigBeanBilly]

I agree so much about the microtransactions thing, it really bothers me how much it ruins the immersion of MMOs, or pretty much any game tbh

[@userunknown1030]

how i mean i play games they all have microtransaction unless it is a indie game and it doesn't do anything for or against immersion lol. but i guess that is just me i don't spend any money more then i have to like buying the actually game if there is dlc or microtransaction i don't buy into them no matter if people say you wont ever catch up or you wont get this fancy thing over here i say okay cool i am here just to play the game lol. been playing wow that way for years game are just that games if you don't like them don't play them i guess but microtransaction should break immersion unless the game is asking to buy somthing every five secound then i get it but other then mobile games i don't see many game doing that lol.

[@kurtoskalacs9116]

doesn't really matter though if there is a cash shop or not because RMT will always be present in absolutely any MMO that has trading in a form , even if there is no trading there will be people paying others real money just to get a certain achievement or finish a specific dungeon.

[@nottomclancy2439]

@@kurtoskalacs9116 So what? That doesn't mean I want the company to ruin their own game and make every good looking mount or armor set a shop exclusive, instead of a reward you can achieve by finishing a raid or do achievements for. What an absolute braindead take. L for you. 🤡🤡🤡

[@IamCombustible]

So lamentable that players have slowly been tricked into regurgitating the "the microtransactions are cosmetic so it's okay" excuse. Cosmetics are part of the game. Gamers shouldn't be defending practices that are actively fucking their hobby to death.

[@userunknown1030]

@@IamCombustible though they say that because you don't have to buy those things and you would only do it if you support the game developers or what not. i am fine with them because i don't pay for any of them i don't care if they have mircotransation that ship set sail the moment i saw people preorder games to get a about the same difference and start support dlc that shit was the start of all this bs.

[@BlondieYouTube]

I'm really in love with Classic Hardcore. It's like the classic experience on steroids, when entering an Elite Ogre cave with a group feels like you are putting a lot of risk if you mess up.

[@Anonymality]

guild wars will always be my favorite mmorpg. makes me so insanely happy that servers are still up for people to play and interact with each other whenever they want to join back in, and feels crazy to have newbies running around asking for help. makes it feel like the game still has life in it

[@tntq13074]

When the mmorpgs were new, we loved them because they were simply awesome and innovative. I think back to Asheron's Call, and then Dark Age of Camelot my God, they were the most gorgeous thing to happen to my PC. I would get lost for days in an immersive world of my own. What changed? When it got competitive. When it stopped being about the quests and exploration and storylines. It became about gear, and gear score, and technique in a fight. There was always some strategy in boss killing but no one was shamed for not knowing how to do it. "Carrying" wasn't a burden, no one cared because we just got through it together. In addition, players became too demanding of games and the devs too solicitous for ideas. Mmorpgs are what they are because of all that I mentioned and because of corporate greed. Once Daoc lost its fanbase I went to WoW, WoTLK was about to go live in a few days and it was glorious throughout the whole thing, except I learned what kind of player I was. I was and am a Zelda kid. In it for the adventure, the scenery, the ambiance and coolness of a made up world. I'm nit competitive, I hate mythic anything, and joining a guild is just a loose means of controlling people to make them do mythics with you. The "Leet" players won. The rest of us just meander through as a means of unwinding from our days at work or if we are procrastinating doing our schoolwork for grad school. It's just not fun for the average player like it used to be.

[@JayBigDadyCy]

Honestly if you miss MMO's for the quests, exploration, and stories, then maybe give FF14 a try if you haven't. There is nothing pushing you to do endgame content unless it's your thing. You can literally be a professional crafter if you want. Not trying to be an FF14 shill here, but it's a great game. I say this as an OG WoW player who raided in top end guilds from 2006 to 2011.

[@ZorroVulpes]

in 2004, the internet was our escape from real life. today, real life is our escape from the internet. the context of early mmos as integral to how the games felt, and because the context is impossible to recreate, that feeling is impossible to recreate

[@seanwilliams7655]

Glad someone else understands this. At the end of the day, playing with other people in a shared world was a novel experience back in 2004. Now it's not. That explains a lot of why the games don't feel the same.

[@Shmandalf]

People were also a lot less guarded online. It was really easy to make friends because no one was really worried about malicious folks trying to dox or harass you. Some of my fondest memories of the early internet days, even pre WoW, was playing Starcraft on Battlenet, or Tibia.

[@MythrilZenith]

I definitely have found an affinity for older game design mentality as opposed to newer games. Some of it is nostalgia, sure, but a lot of these older games are games I didn't grow up with, yet still find the charm and joy in them today. There's just something else about it. Best way I can put it is that learning how to play the game and figuring out everything that was possible felt like learning a skill, and made exploring the simple worlds that much more engaging and exciting because there was challenge and unfriendliness along the way. That's not to say newer games all suck or that the advancements in game design haven't had a good share of positive attributes, but there's a certain quality to games from the 90's and early 00's that just feels like it's missing from most modern games.

[@CarlosFlores-pl3lb]

There are good new games and they usually follow a similar game design to older games, just modernized. Elden ring, BOW, Armored Core come to mind instantly. They feel good, they just do. Progression is good, no hand holding, challenging gameplay, and most importantly: quite a lot of gameplay for what you pay. Old mmos also tick some of these.

[@CarlosFlores-pl3lb]

Even osrs managed to figure out challenging bossing with a super simple combat system lol

[@Kiobao]

Yeah, it's not just MMO's, it's video games as well. Quite a lot that I never played as a kid or were before my time, I went back and played during covid and I was tired of "modern games" from a narrative perspective and ideology to fundamentals. While, this year alone, there has been quite a few games I enjoy, but during covid reinvigorated my desire for older games. Old games just have a cozy, unique, and interesting vibe to them as well as often just more fun and addictive. All of this said, I really dislike OSRS and never got into it. Nor do I really have any desire to play or watch it. I tried several times before, even as a kid since it was always praised.

[@jackperales1076]

I really am into how the older games are so immersive as well in some ways - like forcing everyone to be seen in the actual gear they’re wearing, having class abilities that are 90% thematic with unique combat uses, how it feels like things exist in the game without being specifically for the benefit of players, etc

[@ihateyoutube772]

Old School RuneScape had such a great community feel to it. I remember middle school me just happening to power level fishing next to some random mom and having a pretty deep two hour conversation. Random moments like that were what made the grind actually fun. I feel like that sense of community has slowly disappeared as we all got more and more used to MMOs and technology in general

[@devilyouknow6714]

Wouldn't it be wild if you streamed your experiences in wow classic so we can watch your first time reactions to the game.

[@IdylOnTV]

stream? like peeing? grow up

[@UhWatchMe]

@@IdylOnTV Plugin when?

[@k.ss.s4946]

​@@IdylOnTVyou mean... recording... like rapping? tf you mean bruh you never heard of a streamer?

[@ultimaxkom8728]

Me before growing up: Me after @@IdylOnTV:

[@SupachargedGaming]

The trading post in WoW isn't... exactly.. a cash shop. It's more of a "free" battle pass. If anything, it's kinda damaged the cash shop. They keep adding the cash shop cosmetics to it, allowing players to easily obtain them for doing just about any activities in the game.

[@psyjinx]

Back in my day, we worked a full time job running for nature runes, picking flax, and chopping yews just to fletch them into yew longbows for high alching enough gold to buy an Abby whip we didn't have the attack level for, because strength make number go up.

[@peckop1793]

But you can't train strength with the whip unless you use the controlled setting.

[@martianknight6341]

@@peckop1793 WHoa, Serious Alert!

[@user-gf7qb6dv2e]

I want to point out that playing ragnarok online wasn't fueled by a mandatory questline that pushed you in a linear path. You chose a class and you grinded in places that suited your abilities and that's pretty much it and that was fun. If you add typical mmo stuff then you get the failures of new mmos that tried to mimick ragnarok onlines formula.

[@monsterSK2]

As someone who dabbles with osrs now, but has played albion since beta in 2015; thank you for the mention! Even if the details were slightly off, you nailed the core concepts of the game (mostly risk vs. reward and heavy pvp focus). It makes me happy that people have taken notice of a game that is doing things "you shouldn't do" (hardcore pvp, etc) and really succeeding because the devs care about it!

[@IdylOnTV]

Yeah i was worried about bringing Albion up because my experience is so limited. It needed to be mentioned, though, because i could really tell it was a great experience for the people who were into it. Sorry about getting those details wrong!

[@yeetusdeleetus4697]

The issue with a lot of these games (namely albion) is that the normal player isn't really allowed to interact with the end game as its reserved for the 5 or so players who run the couple big zergs. So if you want to actually interact with the intended endgame you can only do so as a faceless nameless grunt in the front who's there to be instakilled and take hits for the players that are friends with the guild leaders.

[@user-oh3xi1be3l]

The unfortunate thing about the modern age is that most things are done with profit in mind. In the mid 90s early 2000s companies were TRYING to create fun and exciting games they needed to bring in more and more players in general as playing too many video games back then was kind of niche. But with the rise of the internet and the ability to create and support live service games game creators quickly realized they need to make money somehow to support the cost of such a game. Now I'm not saying that Blizzard didn't make enough money to support and then some with just subscriptions from WoW, but there seems to become a mindset by large companies when it comes to microtransactions. Strike while the iron is hot, for WoW as an example add them while it's considered the most popular game on the planet, more player = more opportunity for people to spend additional money. Or if your game is pay to play and struggling with players or free, add them to make money. Gaming has become such a massive business that any company is going to set at times an unrealistic expectation of what kinds of profits they should be pulling in. Thats why a lot of indie games are designed well, though most may lack the budget to do some of the things they aspire to achieve you can tell there is just simply that old school passion put into it. Whereas larger companies leveraging their name to sell poorly developed and underwhelming games has become more and more common, the goal when your business becomes too large and there are way too many hands in the cookie jar tends to focus more on profit margins rather than utilizing any and all your assets to make a game people will actually enjoy. Gaming making people into multi-millionaires or potentially billionaires has killed games, this is a much larger problem from the AAA companies you'd actually expect the best from because they just have too many greedy mouths to feed on the higher end of the company.

[@riggypiggy22]

I feel like people confused the tedious aspect with an mmorpg with "challenge" or "skill". They just waste time....when people buy a game. They want to PLAY it. Ffxiv does this really well. Low levels can contribute to similar content that end game players can (past the intro levels)

[@somerandomguy8539]

I remember way back in 2007 when I was a runescape noob, I was exploring the game world without looking at the world map, and I eventually discovered gnome stronghold. This location was so good for me in the early game, and it took me so long to get there that I was like, "Okay, I guess I just live here now."

[@LootGoblinLofi]

Just returned to Ultima Online after 15 years. I feel this video in my core.

[@christophermerrill8463]

First video I've seen of yours, I love the playful jokes and video editing as well as the excellent insights into the topic! Goodluck in your hard-core classic wow adventures, earth mother watches over you! Man it would be so cool if wow did a classic plus like osrs is doing!

[@carrieschmidt1780]

I have always been stuck on this issue since the introduction of the celestial steed. I've always been playing towards the top 1%, practicing and optimizing my execution of my abilities and reflexes to the max. While doing all of this I've longed for the feeling of a complete product being included in my subscription. It feels like it's constantly drifting further away due to most of the business changes that have come with the evolution in the space. I saw players when I first started back in 06 rocking their t5 and t6, iconic faction mounts and such and got excited at the challenges ahead. Over the course of cata to wod it felt like the promises of flex goals became commercialized and comidified via shop and esports and the imersive aspect of being a new adventurer in a world of heros and badasses was lost. I'm still pushing m+ and mythic raid but it feels like all that remains is the moment to moment. Immersion be dammed.

[@Joromonni]

GW1, OSRS and Vanilla WoW did hit different. But its nice they all are still playable :)

[@ptkelly80]

Don't forget EQ1 (and heck, even EQ2 on a progression server...it came out the same time as WoW in 2004).

[@Joromonni]

For sure. Lord of the Rings Online and Warhammer: Age of Reckoning are also still playable. FF11 aswell @@ptkelly80

[@135791max]

Your chart with player demand for mmorpgs didn't really account for covid, a time when all video game genres experienced a major boom. It was what caused me to pick up runescape again for the first time again in like 15 years. The demand was there during a time where everyone had to stay inside anyways, yet were craving socialization, and mmorpgs were the perfect solution to that isolation. Yet no real breakthrough mmos came out during that period, even though there was renewed demand. I tried to find several to play and nothing that came out past 2010 peaked my interest.

[@AmiableDingo]

I assume it is pretty hard to make a breakthrough MMO without being able to have you team working together. Work from home is great in most cases, but I think creating worlds and systems is probably not one of them. Also even with a team working together it takes a while for something to go from a concept to a game

[@IdylOnTV]

That's a really great point. OSRS peaked in player count during covid, and it's a safe bet to assume games like FFXIV did too. Should've mentioned that.

[@AtsAreStupid]

@@IdylOnTV For sure, though World of Warcraft repeatedly killing itself helped the genre as a whole. Thanks Blizzard!

[@yan-amar]

@@AtsAreStupid In the end the long awaited WoW killer was WoW itself

[@justinthematrix]

New world

[@verdiss7487]

I find that there's a pretty reliable metric that determines whether a game is good or not: dev team size. The larger the team, the worse the game. The only thing large teams reliably seem to produce is better visuals. But when it comes to the actual game part of the game, having a smaller team means a more cohesive understanding of what the game is trying to be and why. Amazon's mmo didn't fail despite the huge team and vast budget, it failed *because* of those things.

[@Ghostalking]

The first thing that hit me when I tried Classic WoW is how excited I used to get about getting green armor. Nowadays it’s blue and purple galore

[@cococock2418]

This is something that people who don’t actually play classic wow repeat. The whole “a green feels good” wears off so ridiculously quickly. If you actually played the game last level 20 you’d know this.

[@liveitup1216]

Interestingly enough, Everquest is arguably directly responsible for for WoW Classic's success. Holly Longdale ran Everquest for years and was the driving force behind their versions of classic servers. They showed not only was it profitable, but that they could iterate on the classic versions of the game little by little and farm their own content yearly. It's why Blizzard poached her to run classic development in the first place, since she was the proof of concept.

[@thekugulu]

I'm an old Final Fantasy XI player and have to remind those that it came out 2 years before World of Warcraft, I didn't play 14 much but can understand everyone pulled from the originals, but FFXI was before WoW

[@raptorking3678]

I still play FFXI. I recently started playing on the HorizonXI private server and it's a blast.

[@thekugulu]

@@raptorking3678 I played HorizonXI when it first game out and had the majorly increased spawns, it was fun at first and I enjoyed playing an Ironman hardcore character until I was dumb and died. I still have an account on Ashita but there are so many good games right now! Have fun in XI xD

[@lovebattleforge]

I started playing wow classic in 2020, my first time ever playing it and it's one of my best gaming decisions. Doing 40 man raids, clearing all the raids for the first time with other People Who also never played the old raids was amazing. I can't wait for another SoM 2.

[@dracotoy]

Say what you will about retail wow, but dragonriding has been the most wonderful addition in a long while for just open world fun. Goes to show how important non combat is aswell

[@schoo9256]

I started playing casually at the end of BFA and I thoroughly agree. I mean, they made the simple act of travelling to get to an objective, amazingly fun.

[@DrewPicklesTheDark]

Flying was a garbage addition in TBC, I always said "If they were going to add flying, they need to make it an integral feature and design around it. It's current iteration is terrible for the game." It took them ~15 years, but they finally did that and it's actually good. It's a shame it took them so long.

[@PCproffesorx]

I always think chris wilson (POE creator) has insightful commentary on this subject. Games need friction and current gen mmo's remove so much of that friction. Teleporting everywhere, unlimited inventory space, easy access to all content etc. difficulty of base level content, Once these frictions are taken away though it is really hard to bring them back, and this is a perfect example of the players not knowing what they want because they were all things that the playerbase clamored for, and them getting what they wanted actively made these games worse.

[@kenpanderz]

idk, that sounds kinda similar to saying that things should be made aritficaly harder so you'll enjoy it more. like making you run a lap around McDonalds everytime you want to get a cheeseburger. would it make people healthier? maybe. would it drive McDonalds sales of cheeseburgers up? not after the novelty of the McMarathon wears off, then it'll drop harder than i do after a triple quarter pounder rips through my body like a greasenado.. games shouldnt be auto-winning simulators, but they also shoudlnt require you to go 15 menus deep to make an iron sword. the difficulty should be balanced and engaging, not something that makes you feel like luck was the only real factor in you winning, or that you'd need an act of god to stop you from customizing everything in your general vicinity. but the glaring issue with this is... its largely subjective, so difficulty need to be variable and controllable by the player. be this in-game difficulty options like choice of fighting style, grinding opportunities and multiple approaches, but also toggleable/slideable options in a settings menu. ofcourse this is less useful for online/PVP games, but even in those games some "difficulty" settings could still exist, like visual options to help people find/track enemies better, or clear some visual space on the screen to cut down on distractions. its not that game need to be harder, its the the difficulty of these games needs to be "smarter" and/or more customizable. Nuzlock runs and max difficulty runs are good examples of how either in-game mechanics or settings in a menu can make games harder in enjoyable ways while still allowing players to choose how hard they want their experience to be, to a point anyways. we already have most of the tools needed to accomplish this even outside of mods, we just need to apply them intelligently and more consistently. but we cant really do that so long as companies dont have to take players "votes" into consideration. not buying a game doesnt exactly tell them what they need to improve on, much less force their hand, and buying their game is just you voting in favor of whatever they already did. cant make change within the system, if we could, games wouldnt suck as bad as they do now. after all, if the average player decided how the game should be, why would they make it suck on purpose? i dont think there is any political motivation to make games suck, unless im missing something.

[@rocksfire4390]

@PCproffesorx yea because the game that can't retain new players and is actively trying to make the game more annoying to play is the one you should listen to. the reason mmos suck now is because there are better options widely available now, which wasn't a thing back when mmos were huge. that's the reason, it's simply that MMO's sucked from the start but were better then everything available at the time. as more game engines became popular more games came out which gave even more choices to players. while you do need some friction in a game to enjoy it, the level at which POE does is it just demented.

[@Shortdood]

this was an excellent video that made me feel even more grateful that we have OSRS

[@poro3246]

In my opinion. The biggest problem with Mmos nowadays is the massive availability of information on the internet that takes away a lot of the mystery that Mmos most used to have. Also, I believe lore is a big part of a good mmo.

[@Chakafuyo21]

Yeah, taking WoW as an example, by the time the next season comes, every change, dungeon and raid boss will have a full guide on how and when to do everything. I'm fine with people using test realms for feedback and stuff, but man, there's no mistery anymore.

[@cococock2418]

If that mystery is the only thing keeping you playing, then you never enjoyed the game to begin with. “Mystery” and “exploration” are for single player games. Legit MMOs most important single feature is a satisfying gameplay loop at end game and as good of a leveling system as possible to get players there. Absolutely no one is being “wowed” as they step into strqnglethorn vale for the 100th time, internet or not. It always makes me laugh when people say what you say because they act like guides weren’t a thing in 2005. Thottbot and then KZbin existed shortly after. These things aren’t new. You need more than a “wow, that place is cool” to KEEP players playing. Players worried about what you’re worried about in this comment aren’t the type to stick around anyway, let alone get to max level.

[@cococock2418]

@@Chakafuyo21there literally never was mystery, at least not for raid bosses. The strats for these fights were always worked out by mega virgin guilds during PTR and then passed onto the general populace, just as happens today. There was no such thing as random casual players randomly attacking a raid boss and just “seeing what happens”. That never existed. Thottbot and similar sites like all Allakhazam existed from day one of wow. PTRs existed from day one of wow. What you’re doing is glamorizing your nostalgic past. Just because YOU were a 10 year old who had no knowledge of these things at the time doesn’t mean they didn’t exist at the time. This goes for KZbin videos too. Classic wow is amazing because of the gameplay loop, not the nostalgic nonsense you’re referring to.

[@Chakafuyo21]

@@cococock2418 I'm not even close to fit as an example of my previous comment. In fact, I'm the kind of player who "attacks a boss and sees what happens" because that's the little fun I can get out of the game after 16 years of playing. I don't watch any kind of guides of any sort and clear the seasonal content to the point I'm satisfied without burning the game. It's the fact that there's so much info out there that by the time a patch comes live, so many people knows everything and berate people for no reason. But if that's their fun way to play, then props to them.

[@josepheubank1917]

I love seeing people that usually don’t play world or warcraft classic, play it, and actually enjoy it! Love your videos :)

[@dakineprotoss]

i started playing wow classic for the first time about 6 months ago, now its my favorite game ever, and I am playing through HC classic (lvl 45 rn) new games are just bad, they dont make games to be fun anymore, they make games to metagame your Login Rate and Microtransaction spend so they can sell it to their shareholders during quarterly finance readouts old games were just made to be fun before the corporations took over complete control from all AAA dev houses

[@ima6pack]

Slow progression is so beautiful and highly under appreciated. I really feel like that made games feel like a journey rather than a conglomeration of objectives. One thing I do love in newer games is transmogification since I don't always love the look of armors as I level up and tend to prefer more grounded aesthetics. I do think that allowing transmog/outfit items/etc to only be attainable in game and keeping them away from microtransactions would also allow them to serve as a status symbol without forcing a player to wear ugly gear.

[@acrios90]

I think its worth noting that the shop in WoW at 18:00 is not a micro transaction shop (yet) and uses in game currency you earn to buy the things, kinda acts like a battlepass in some ways. However Blizzard could start selling the Tenders outside of the game sometime in the future.

[@WarFan40k]

Was gauna say the same thing. Its a bit more like osrs Adventure Paths if they updated monthly and was based around cosmetic rewards. Though it is dressed up exactly like a battle pass and people are worried it could end up being buyable. The specific mount is also an old Diablo 3 preorder mount but there are plenty of unique buyable mounts on the actual mtx store.

[@BigBeanBilly]

They already started selling tenders in bundles for other cosmetics, effectively putting them in the shop

[@acrios90]

@@BigBeanBilly sure but i dont really count that because it is a one time purchise. I dont see it any different then buying dragonflight and getting the 500 bonus tendies.

[@poppo879]

@@acrios90 It's a one time purchase that you can make multiple times. They've added on traders tenders to shop bundles multiple times now

[@semiramisubw4864]

@@acrios90 and what about the new cool staff which perfectly fits to the shop mog ? Stuff on tradingpost got more and more expensive over the months and any sane person guessed that they will somehow sell tenders in the shop. They even will sell them with bigger editions of expensions that will come. Besdies that, WoW token ofc besides that less and lesser proper goldincome in the game itself, but raising prices/material stuff for consumeables, crafting etc etc. Dragonflight is literally a WoWtoken expansion.

[@ShaolinPotato]

Retail is based more on drop in drop out content with M+ and LFR. Being able to get the best gear without raiding kinda kills the group and social aspect of the game. Classic is more community focused because if you are a dick in a group or raid, everyone will know. In retail you can do high level M+ without ever speaking to another party member. The social aspect makes it fun. Along with the chase for gear, retail kills the gear part by making every new raid tier totally eclipse the last. In classic there are some T1/T2 items that you keep until Naxx. So you basically get reset every few months and all your effort was wasted in retail. While the gameplay loop is fun imo, (I love M+ and raiding.) The fact that your effort isn't a long-term payoff, eventually grinds players down. Source: I am a 3 time Gladiator in pvp (S2 Merciless Gladiator in BC, S8 Wrathful Gladiator in Wotlk, S26 Dread Gladiator in BFA) AOTC almost every raid tier from MoP to DF. CE Mythic Raid achievement for 4 modern raid tiers. (Uldir, Dazar'alor, Eternal Palace, and Vault of Incarnates.) I quit my 14yr long wow addiction at the end of Dragonflight S1.

[@birdvapes4483]

Rip brother. Quit my addiction to W0w when cata came out. Source: I killed the lich king a couple times I just play oldschool runescape now.

[@ShaolinPotato]

​@@birdvapes4483same. Every gain feels like it lasts and doesn't immediately become useless

[@networknomad5600]

This is why Wrath Classic shines so much. MMORPGs were just built as actual RPGs back in the day.

[@innoxgrav]

You popped up in my feed today, I really enjoyed the video it was really entertaining! Thanks

[@johnsmith3548]

The old mmos were designed as a world you're going to live in. After wow every mmo (including wow at some point) became games for people who log in two times a week to do raids, everything before that basically was just a filler content. Also you've missed ragnarok online

[@eggs9636]

People log in daily to play myithc+, from my experience its classic era players that hit 60 and start raid logging.

[@johnsmith3548]

@@eggs9636 yeah, that's how many people play but the thing is that game was actively redesigned after this philosophy after that

[@wilthus1607]

A breakthrough in knowledge in classic wow is realizing every weapon is a hunter weapon

[@YahiaH]

After incessant nagging, I made my son an OSRS account the other day, and seeing him slowly progress on his own really drove Idyls point home. The game's simplicity and the ability to 'earn' achievements are what's keeping him going. Add to that exploration, PVP and storytelling. On a side note, It's nice to see the game again through wide excited eyes. It's come full circle and I love it.

[@ashbeef1987]

Just found your channel and your humor/personality is amazing! I just wish you had more diverse content besides just RuneScape, because I would watch basically every upload. Great work!

[@peterbejune9433]

Man I never see FFXI mentioned in these videos. Everything said about combat and ability/gear progression in this video applies to FFXI as well, simple and rewarding. Also FFXI had skillchaining which blew my mind back in the day. You could coordinate a series of weaponskills with other players to create bonus damage that then could be bursted on by magic players it was amazing. It's still to this day the only MMO I believe where day of week or weather mattered! And not just for combat but crafting too, it was so awesome. Great vid!

[@Zombiebuhada]

He's a RuneScape player you can't ask much from them they just know tree, rock and scam me of armour :(

[@jordonlegge448]

God damn is ffxi amazing. The community was/is way different man. People will go hours out of there way just to help so guys they just met out.

[@pebcak]

FFXI is so good. I've put a lot of time into 14, but never had much fun with it or interaction with other players. Active classic XI servers like HorizonXI are so incredibly fun though.

[@CaptianSwan]

Yea I've had a similar experience. I never played runescape growing up and osrs is awesome. Tried playing wow multiple times and didn't like it, classic was a great experience.

[@dyrik]

i wish i could subscribe again to support your channel more lol i love your content man. keep it up!

[@throwaway5012]

There's a core draw to MMOs that you really didn't touch on: People who enjoy these types of games get dopamine hits from 'Constant Progression Visible to Peers'. (I'm sure a Psychologist could have a field day with that one). You enjoy that feeling of crafting your first set of steel armor to replace your iron. And you want to stand around the market posing with your new drops and get attaboys from people passing by. But where does that eventually lead? The people who play the games the longest have the most acquired power/influence. The longer an MMO is out the less appealing it will be for new players who are wanting that same itch. You're 4 years behind? You're going to have to really spend a LOT of time to catch up. But the inverse is also true. Got 4 years invested? Well you can't stop playing now, even if you absolutely hate yourself for continuing to pump time into something that has long since lost its luster. Sunk cost and all that. (Also, you're older and have less time to spend. A real lose-lose situation.) Microtransactions (Both P2W and cosmetic) are the natural result of people wanting an edge over their peers without spending the same amount of time, and developers wanting to capitalize on it. (Account Sharing, AFK Farming, Botting - are equally repulsive to the average MMO enjoyer, but holy shit do a lot of people still engage in that behavior. *Especially in Runescape*.) Also: Demand for MMOs dropping off from 2012-2020 is probably also a result of new game Genres coming out that scratched a similar itch. Mobas specifically, but also RP centric spaces like VR Chat and GTA Online were competing for market share.

[@cococock2418]

Games like wow, even wow classic, have done a ton to completely obliterated that “you’re gonna have to do a lot to catch up” bit. It just doesn’t apply anymore. Also comical that you think VR chat scratches the same itch as wow… gta online? Really? That game is fucking terrible.

[@throwaway5012]

@@cococock2418 There was a large subset of people who were drawn to MMOs for the social aspect, and social space games like those two really popped off in that time frame. Pure speculation on my part, but it makes sense to me that game genres with hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of players popping up in the last 10 years weren't at least partially responsible for the decline of the MMO genre.

[@danielgibson3422]

While I don't fully agree with everything, it is interesting to see some of the other sides opinions. I don't think I can ever go back to the grind side of MMOs, the thought of wasting the time to mob grind again in old wow, or trying to skill up again in RuneScape gives me shuders... I think it really just depends on what you are looking for in an MMO really, some might like a big hill you slowly walk up over the day, others don't mind taking a gondola up to the top to spend the whole day enjoying it.

[@wolfspirit12223]

Couldn't agree more. A good point to this is WoW retails leveling speed. For Idyl it ruins the experience because its a process that is quickly dealt with. But for a lot of players they absolutely hate leveling and just want to skip to the endgame. Which is why WoW retail is the way that it is.

[@Punlock1]

@@wolfspirit12223 the thing is, wow kinda left its world behind in a sense. you dont have a reason to interact with the world outside of the latest expansion or newest raid/mythic/ whatever content. as idyl pointed out, you can only really make the slower pace work when your rewarding players along the way. in classic you got new abilities and talent points and meaningful upgrades to gear. you felt noticeable more powerful when you hit certain milestones which isnt really the case in retail. Things like heirlooms deliberately distance you from those rewards. quests whos whole purpose was to give you a powerful piece of gear are just.... xp drops with extra steps. all of that isnt to say i enjoy the grinding. its just that, for the people who do modern mmos do them a disservice. if you look at a game like runescape, you can do wildly varying things on the way to maxing your character, and realistically, maxing isnt really the destination. sure, you are going to feel better having that 99 in every stat, but trying to figure out the pieces to do you first barrows kc on gumball gear could easily be its own rewards for the right person. these small rewards every step along the way are part of what make these older mmos so interesting and engaging.

[@zym6687]

>others don't mind taking a gondola up to the top For an MMO game sure that's fine, but not for an RPG and this video is about MMORPGs. 'The grind' is an RPG feature and whether it is an MMO or not has no bearing on it. Essentially, you've conflated MMOs necessarily having elements of an RPG which is just wrong. If all you want is action, then just don't play a genre based around progressive decisions and actions to develop a character over time and just play a game that delivers action.

[@danielgibson3422]

@@zym6687 trouble with that "An RPG is this" statement is what is the proper level of grind? Is it a follow the story and you will be fine deal? Or is it do EVERYTHING and you will be fine? Or is it do EVERYTHING and then go beat down Wolves for 6 hours? Or is it do what ever you want? RPG is "roll playing game" not "Do very specific set things that some random person deams to be the minimum because that's the level of dedication they like game." Yes RPGs can be a major grind, that doesn't mean all of them or even a majority of them should be. That's why many companies do try to give multiple routes through games, wether that's different servers or different difficulties. Not everyone likes to have an easy ride through a game but likewise not everyone wants to super hardcore Ironman bash your head into a wall for prestige of a game ether.

[@mattw6152]

Its not just the games changing... players have changed the way they play games.

[@dannyp9210]

It's up to the game designers to save the players from themselves.

[@MissRazna]

what font did you use when the dog was talking? its awesome

[@felipevasconcello8164]

I'm halfway through the video and will watch it completely, but weird questions, what's the name of your pixel art font? I need it. Ty.

[@Wtfboomdps]

This is pretty coincidental. I've beein playing WoW since 2009 and switched to classic when it came out. I ended up quitting last year when they started overly "modernising" WotLK classic and I've been playing OSRS for the past month, which I had never played before. This game is right up my alley

[@cococock2418]

Modernizing as in what? You mean improving and making better? That’s what classic is all about. That’s the whole reason “classic wow plus” is so in demand. So you were okay with them “modernizing” in vanilla and tbc but not in wotlk? How does that work exactly? The whole “no changes” thing was always braindead. Wotlk changes like the feral Druid, ret paladin, and most recently Hunter trap launcher change are good things that everyone who actually plays wotlk wants. Same goes for things like the catch up siderql system. Not sure how any of these are so bad they make you quit a game, sounds to me like you were just a grey parser.

[@Wtfboomdps]

@@cococock2418 Yeah that's another thing that made me want to quit; a pretty toxic community that thinks that because they apparently like something, everyone should. I don't like any of the changes they made. Level boosts suck because they kill the grind and if there's no grind there's no meaning. Same reason I don't like the catch up stuff. Wow tokens suck for very obvious reasons and while I'm aware that runescape also has their equivalent, at least they have not eroded away every other aspect of the game's integrity in oldschool.

[@nimmha6708]

Nerd, he didn't like the changes, that makes him a bad player or how you call it "grey parser" .. Hilarious. @@cococock2418

[@SandwichCrab]

Unironically can't wait for asmon to react to this one!

[@DeanGetYourWings]

I know Josh is a big creator nowerdays but glad to see him getting some love. Like you, his videos are the best. Keep up the great work man I loved the video.

[@un4given830]

i had the same experience with wow classic. never before had i played wow except for the week before i tried classic where some friends tried to get me into retail wow. I picked up classic and immediately fell in love with it. There's a certain je ne sais quoi about it and other old mmorpgs.

[@Nokaflai]

oops i didnt mean to watch this

[@IamaFungi]

As a new Ironman in rs3 I love lodestones 😅. I can start a teleport and go get a glass of water! Makes questing easier. Also I hope you feel better.

[@Nkodtb]

I've played RS during the mid 2000s and WoW during from BC to shadowlands. one key point you made was progression. Because, RS definitely doesn't "look" like a good game on the outside especially these days, but man i remember how many satisfying progression routes there are in the game that makes getting their rewards feel great. Edit: you almost make me want to try old school RS but the only reason why I never did because my original character from 2005 wont be playable in osrs. It was a dealbreaker for me.

[@troydennis96]

You should still do it so you can experience those early moments again and experience the decent amount of new content!

[@davejones4946]

This channel is excellent. Why the hell does it only have 32k subscribers? Well, I am doing my part to correct this. Subscribed! I really like this kind of content. If you keep making it, I will keep watching. Congratz ;)

[@thewolfin]

I played Iron Realms MUDs back in the early 2000s, and even that early, they had "credits" which you could buy and exchange for in-game money, or legendary pay-to-win gear/features. One of them even reduced the cooldown on movement between tiles. Imagine OSRS but you could pay $200 to move 30% faster than everyone else...

[@bransonallen2925]

The last time I tried to play OSRS, I made an Ironman. I played it for about two days before I realized how much I hated walking back and forth. You'll never be able to convince me that having to manually walk from place to place for hundreds of hours is "better" game design. The argument that they should just make better worlds also doesn't hold much weight for me, because I've played the game for 15 years. I've SEEN the world. I just want to get from Varrock to Catherby and not have it take ten minutes of my limited free time. I'll stick to my lodestones.

[@svenforfifr1390]

When we were 13 and had all the time in the world, it was alright. Now if a game doesn't respect my time, regardless of genre, I tend to dump them. Lodestones were a great QoL upgrade. Only thing I could think to change in them is add some more requirements to the more niche ones. Teleporting directly to the Fort for essentially free after one no requirement quest just seems lazy.

[@s.vanheijnsbergen9644]

There are tons of teleportation options you unlock during those hundreds of hours. From magic spells (that become even better when you train construction) to items like Ardy cape, Dramen staff, Ectophial etc. to location specific teleports like spirit trees, hot air balloons, eagles etc.

[@thefakebriskeh]

Like are u actually stupid? Runescape has tons of transportation options. You unlock them as you progress and become familiar with the world. Why would u give a new player lodestones to everywhere? Whats the point of making it open world at that point its just linear

[@bransonallen2925]

@@s.vanheijnsbergen9644 Yes. I've played the game for 15 years, I'm not new. Those are all in Runescape 3 as well. The only problem is RS3 doesn't lock me out of teleporting to all the major cities until 50 magic. I just have to visit them once and then I can go back any time for free. I don't need to fumble with runes every time I need to visit them either.

[@mendelson6052]

I made my first Ironman last year. Getting the magic for teles was super easy. I don’t know what you’re on about, dude

[@azalex91]

I’ve been enjoying wotlk classic so much I haven’t been on my retail account in almost two months. Retail is just so damn big and fast paced you can get to max level in just like a day or two of just spamming dungeons and questing. Been playing my wotlk toon and still not even 80 and with the 50% buff it’s still slow but it gives me time to explore and get to know areas in questing. My retail account I’ve played since tbc and have over 30k achievements and still forgot so much of the old content in Azeroth Outland and northrend so it’s been so fun experiencing it again and the fact that people are a lot more social on there. Love it

[@Skylos]

I really agree with the fast travel point. One thing I love about Runescape is that in Runescape, any sort of fast travel or decreased travel is a pretty big reward. Like, people do really challenging quests just to maybe unlock an oven that is slightly closer to a bank lol

[@DROOG1E]

Things that kill MMOs for me: - Data mining every little detail - Try hards that place meta over fun - Devs listening to the audience vs building their vision WoW (and many others) were great because things were new. There was so much to explore and discover. A lot of these discoveries were through exploration, hints, and, most importantly, the social element. Once everything started getting data mined, fed into plug-ins, and min/maxed it stripped out that adventure + it turned dungeon crawling and raids from something big, fun, and mysterious into a rush (and plenty of toxicity if you deviated even the slightest from the norms). The big thing - dev stuff - is that I think many will cater to their audience, strip things back or just remove aspects players don't like for the sake of removing the friction versus sticking with their vision and it just being part of the game. It's okay if a dungeon is too hard for people. And it's okay if there are weird bugs and fun, casual elements that clash with hardcore. It doesn't have to be strictly developed for top-end raid guilds that make up 0.01% of your population. I, personally, would rather place my trust in a dev that has a roadmap and sticks to their vision and philosophy -- creating something really unique and engaging -- versus trying to be everything to everyone but ultimately being underwhelming for all.

[@ash0787]

I like that there was some Guild Wars pvp video in the video, thats still my favourite 'mmo' game because you didn't feel like you had to put in hundreds of hours to fully experience what the game has to offer, it was more about experiencing the story, the challenge of combat and the tactics especially how you interacted with other party members in on the fly tactics over a diverse variety of battle scenarios. It was more about what you knew, who you knew and what you focused on equipment / skills / exploration wise rather than straight up 'grinding' up stats solo for hundreds of hours.

[@peanutwars]

great video I totally feel the same! All my friends who grew up playing wow and I love classic and can’t find much enjoyment in retail and my friend who started playing in MOP can’t get into classic at all and just loves retail lol. He played a rogue and when he found out he couldn’t go full speed stealthed he was like i’m out 🤦‍♂️

[@Shiirow]

it is nostalgia, if you were to say vanilla was better than wrath or mists, because they are objectively better experiences with better balancing that vanilla could ever hope for with its half the classes and specs were non-viable and massive bugs and broken bosses. when you have a final raid boss thats literally mathematically impossible to defeat, you got issues.

[@Ryuujinv01]

It's worse than just 'needing microtransactions means you made a bad game', it's that the microtransactions provide an incentive for the company to intentionally make a bad game unless you push a microtransaction button, press the button to receive temporary dopamine that quickly expires unless you press the button again.

[@LordOffal]

I have to agree with the slow progression being a good thing. I’m WoW classic being in white quality gear was expected for a while and did build hype for greens. Back in the old days you had 6 item qualities; - Greys and Whites which were crap but for starting players - Greens which would be what you used if you levelled up consistently from questing etc - Blues which you got from dungeons or special quests and showed you spent time doing something more difficult - Purples which you got from the top tier quests, crafting, or raids - Oranges which no one had! That was the point, they were special artefact things which were so uncommon they were special. All of this stacked to make it feel like you were progressing. Also I remember doing a Warlock epic mount quest and it was the most epic thing to do and cheaper than buying one which most other people had to do. Because of the time commitment to do it and the speed you level up in WoW now a days it got given to you by the trainer. Very sad the epic moments are taken away. To caveat though. Pacing was slowed down in the old days partially due to trying to get more subscription money. At the time WoW classic came out people were excited because it only went to level 60 versus the normal standard of 100. WoW classic was viewed as the quick one and some of the areas were absolutely too slow.

[@UpgradeLemonade]

Not sure old MMO gameplay and design is attracting a massive new audience. That's the problem. We need the younger generation to get invested in the genre and we aren't seeing that . Yes RS and WoW classic are popular but not at the scale that grows the genre. One big point is the genre requires a massive time investment .... That's not a bad thing per say ,as it's a way to build attachment to your character and the world. But realistically it's a big turn off for people to have to grind for hundreds of hours to only then begin to get into endgame content. And even then it's many hundreds of hours more of doing repetitive grinds to get the gear you want. I love MMOs but we need to find ways to make the genre more time accessible.

[@VagrantVideos]

As someone who is deeply entrenched into old mmos, I wish I could do this level of production in my vids.

[@desertranger82]

i started playing albion online since is the only hardcore mmorpg out there at this point, and the RMT situation was sooo bad i had to quit, miss those days where the people played the game instead of working on it.

[@JustHereForTheDialogue]

I’m ngl SWTOR was indeed my introduction into MMORPGS I’d probably still play it to this day if I didn’t lose the account information. Now I’ve been an OSRS nerd for about 3 years and I don’t see myself playing another game anytime soon. lol your transition skits always keep my on my toes.

[@DrMAngelo]

Just a note: WoW's trading post, the feature you called the "in game micro transaction shop" Is not the microtransion shop. The currency for this, the "traders tender" is earned for doing in game content like quests,achievements or dungeons. The quest that introduces you to it tries to communicate this but the design of the trading post itself is designed like a storefront, which can be confusing. WoW does still have an in game micro transaction shop, but it is accessed through a game menu or through the game's desktop launcher, depending on the specific micro transaction

[@zym6687]

2:15 Ackshually panning the camera is specifically a horizontal rotation not just any camera movement, think of a panoramic image. Tilt is the term for a vertical rotation however what you really do is a pedestal shot, a vertical shift of the camera itself.

[@GooseGoose-rg4vs]

As someone who started playing Albion last year and never hears about it from anyone irl, hearing you mention it was awesome. Great vid man ❤

[@dariogonzalez531]

I quite honestly think my dad is the only person who has ever used gold in WoW to buy tokens to exchange in game currency for Blizzard Credit. He got himself Overwatch, Diablo 4 and every expansion after WoD using WoW Tokens. Which is why I never saw them as a problem, until I grew up and realized 90% of people buy them to get gold.

[@joshbrowngames]

7:02 the bit about decision paralysis being like partners looking through Netflix together and settling on Idly's YT video is so spot on 😂

[@GravitoRaize]

What people forget about old school MMOs was that they were designed, similar to the MUDs they evolved from, with a "carrot on a stick" appeal. There were academic studies early on where graduate students at universities were writing papers on Everquest and this "carrot on a stick". The idea was that a player would be willing to spend hours and hours doing the same tedious task because then they would get a unique armor or weapon. Not necessarily the "best" armor or weapon, but usually the best for that level. Then you'd do the grind all over again for another item at another level. What WOW and other newer MMORPGs did was realize that the players got instant dopamine if they got good items right away, so they based their entire game on "ooo look at this new shiny! oh wait, now look at this new shiny!" and just gave players a simpler experience with questing and removed much of the grind that old school MMOs had for gear. It wasn't the same level of dopamine, because other players knew that anyone could get the same gear if they did the same easy quest line, but it WAS an achievement. And yes, it cost more programming and modelling hours to design a game around constantly getting better and better items, but you can get more subscriptions if you reward lazy players for being bad at the gameplay and not understanding the lore at the same rate you reward patient players for grinding and knowing every single detail of the lore, so much that they are writing fan fiction or roleplaying it in game. Old school games like Project Gorgon and Runescape reward only those players with the patience, those that are grinding out mob after mob looking for that rare loot for that rare item that they then stash away in their inventory without ever showing anyone or only breaking it out for in-game events. In Project Gorgon, you may buy a crafted inventory gear set from a player who has been playing for 3+ years and use that set yourself for 3+ years. In Runescape, you might see someone teleport or use another late game skill for the first time and think it'll be a month or more before you can do that, but it's knowing that you'll someday be able to do something that you can only hope to do now that drives that grind and rewards you with the dopamine when you finally get it. In these games, the new skills that are getting added usually play off of existing skills, which means every new programming effort in the game is adding value. I look at games like WoW and none of the gearsets look "cool" to me, because I know the average player can get all of them, because WoW gear is designed for any lazy player to basically get anything, even if they do have to raid or grind quests for a little bit. Even if the rare-ish crafted items don't really take that long to make. In Project Gorgon, I see legendary high level armor and I'm amazed at the weeks of armorcrafting (and carpentry/blacksmithing) grinding and literal millions of in-game currency (or days of grinding, not just hours) the crafter -- whose name is on the item -- had to perform in order to make it. Wow and its flavor-of-the-month clones are just MMOs that focus on modellers making new gear sets constantly, while old school MMOs are focused on new skills and abilities to grind and how they intertwine with existing systems already in the game. I don't care about shiny new items as much as I care about achievements. I like to think there's a significant portion of the MMO playerbase that cares more about grinding and skill progression more than new shinies, too. Also, the days where MMO players ONLY played MMOs are over, too. Some of us play other games causally, too, and then come grind when we really want to grind.

[@tzunamy471]

The random recommendations hit a gold mine for once. Subbed. :D

[@PeterRudesindus]

You know how there is AI that can generate music from an existing piece of a song? That is sort of what happened to WoW i feel. At first the AI song sounds somewhat okay but it quickly devolves into chaos and random clicking noises. New MMOs feel like bad AI art, while older MMOs feel like they were made by actual artists with distinct styles and vision.

[@QueenOfMud]

This is the first video of yours I've seen. The amount of effort you put into the terribly unfunny jokes gives it a ton of soul and charm. Subscribed!

[@dannyp9210]

It's funny how people have different opinions on why the old version is better than the newer one. You said Classic's combat is one big reason why it's deemed good, while I as a Classic player generally prefer retail's combat and think Classic's is too slow, simplistic and kinda boring. With that said, I love the sounds, animations and that mana/resources matters.

[@jeffafa3096]

The true charm of MMO is the interaction with the world and a lot of other players at the same time. It's sharing experiences with random people. Like the waiting for the boat or the dancing on the Deeprun tram, or laugh together when someone misses that jump. Or traveling with a party to a dungeon or battlefield somewhere and creating your own mini-story within the game. Sharing experiences like that, that's what truly defines a good MMO in my opinion. Otherwise you could just play a good multiplayer RPG game with a few of your friends, or maybe even go for single player games like Skyrim. Not that those cannot be great games too, but they are not MMO's...

[@xxboxofmuffinsxx4252]

Tbf at 18:00 thats a free in-game currency shop not a microtransaction shop. Currency is earned monthly and the shop resets monthly (you can freeze 1 item indefinitely until purchase) so it just incentivizes you to be a little active and keep your subscription, but its all free

[@eskaban_edits]

first time seeing you, you got a great entertaining ability and charisma go for the 100k bro

[@philliporsit]

I would watch this if it was a 2 part series but i dont have 34 mins

[@user-nl8tm8jl8l]

26:43 I remember my first green item in wow and I was so excited. I then learned there were other ,more advanced , colors.

[@Camelotsmoon]

28:08 LOL, I kinda miss those boats. EQ2 had the samething between some zones, and waiting like 10 minutes for the boat to come back was annoying, but it had a charm to it. I recall a lot of times I barely missed and I would swim underneath the boat for like 5 minutes until it zoned, and most of the time I would go with it as long as I was close enough lol (then appear on it once it zoned in).

[@matthewturley352]

Oops, i didn't mean to watch this... but while I'm here... Really enjoying your content idyl! Keep up the great work! 👍