I WAS WRONG UPWORK...

[@JoshuaFluke1]

There is no 'best' freelance site, nor is there a need to build a 'better' freelance website. Just use REGULAR job sites like indeed, stackoverflow, monsterjobs, glassdoor, dribble jobs, linkedin jobs, weworkremotely, remoteok.io and search specifically for part time, temporary, and contract. No fees to apply, no fees taken from your pay, no clauses preventing you from getting contact information.

[@offset25]

@Joshua Fluke Love your content and value you provide to people and can understand your viewpoint on Upwork. Don't let other peoples views ever stop you from posting your videos or viewpoints,. I love reading all the threads on here of people's experiences and seeing what other people are doing to get jobs. I will say that I felt the same way initially about upwork policies, but I have grown to understand the verbiage and nuances of their policies and what upwork does to enforce it. As someone who has over 300K in projects on upwork I've run into virtually every conceivable situation with clients and projects and pushed the bounds of Upwork's policies. I will say that in the beginning when I didn't know completely of all their policies or their enforcement of their policies, that I asked a client to pay via paypal for $500 on their chat (which they monitor for red flags). Client made that payment. However Upwork pretty quickly detected that message and did a temporary suspension of some sort (not a full suspension) of my account and clients account and gave us both a warning not to do that again and forced us to respond that we understood and not do it again. I didn't like how that played out, but kept working on their platform, because the leads and projects kept coming in. You are allowed to talk to clients off their network however Upwork does strongly recommend that you keep conversations on their network. I have all my client's emails and contact info and vice-versa. It's just a big no no to get caught receiving payments off their platform. I typically will start out having all conversations on upwork's platform, but slowly switch it over to emails or skype. In my job proposal bids I put in my phone number and skype and haven't had any issues. Also if a client even mentions making payment via some other source via Upwork's messaging system I always tell the client to not do that as it's against Upwork's policies and that they are monitoring the chat. Client then responds back that they understand. There were times where a client had a laugh about it by saying in the chat "Upwork if you are listening we will be paying only through your platform." Anyways It can be good if we have an unbiased 3rd party monitoring business chats in case of abuse or dispute later on that I can reference. So its not all policing of policy. I've had a situation on a project where client didn't want to release final payment after a project was complete. Their money was in Upwork's escrow. Thankfully I had all conversations on their network to reference in case of a dispute (I haven't gone through the dispute process but was very close on this instance). Upwork helped through that process of mediating and client eventually agreed to release payment before going to arbitration. I knew he was bluffing (BTW there is a $300 for each party and for Upwork to go to a third party arbitration service and client's usually do not want to pay for that to recover money in escrow). I had also another issue where a client was trying to scam me to do work and kept asking me to do more work quickly. I put my hours through upwork for one week and that looked like it went through. There was some issue with client's account and he got suspended. It looked like client was logging in from different countries and creating multiple accounts. Anyways it was a $1000 worth of work for the first week that looked like it went through, but client did a charge back on it. Long story short, Upwork still paid me the $1,000 and took the loss for it. So there's a positive there. Anyways I could go on and on about Upwork stories. There is good and bad. I do have empathy for new users on Upwork as they have to build up to get going which I understand is a huge issue for you. Anyways for the most part now Upwork leaves me alone. I guess I have made them a ton of money and I also have made a ton of money so it's win/win. I don't charge $60-$100/hr like other people claim on here. I suppose I can go higher on my rate, but when getting new clients I will keep it competitive. Overall in my opinion I think Upwork has setup their policies to help both sides. They also do it to help with their marketing to get clients to post their jobs and use their platform. They advertise that client's can keep track of freelancers etc. etc., and pay for only approved work etc, etc. but in reality thats only partially true. I don't use their time tracker application which takes screenshots as I am against that and the way that client pays only for approved work is by disputing hours or budgets after the work is done ( there is a week period after I submit my hours for client to dispute it after that they cannot dispute it). This marketing however is somewhat true and is an incentive to get clients to use their platform and a way for clients to feel confident to post a job. Since there are a lot of bad/inexperienced freelancers out there so more business comes to me as a result so I try to get to clients before some other freelancer gets to them. Anyways I think its important with some clients that money is stored in an escrow just to build on some trust as there is a lot of scammers out there on both sides. Their platform is not perfect, but it works for me and for others as well as for clients. I also think there is less of a chance for a client to get out of line (although they still do) since there is a perception that the freelancer is protected to some degree by the platform (I would say there is a little bit of protection, which I will bring up in case there is issues with the client). One last thing I have to say about looking for jobs on indeed is that there really isn't any reputation that the client can look up while there is on Upwork. That can lead to interviews where you have to jump through hoops and tests to get the contract or job. Not to say that doesn't happen on upwork, but I can just win over the client by selling myself and showing reputation on upwork and not having to go through all these tests. I'm not looking to get hired full time. Just want to work on the project and get it done and support it if clients want support.

[@pratiksolanke9664]

What are your thoughts on toptal?

[@MangaGamified]

Thanks, the costs of connects is a big deal once it piles up, remember not all countries have pounds, euros or dollars as a currency, some countries need to shelve 50 local-currency to convert for 1 dollar, and some countries have 55 local-currency minimum wage for a full time job. Agencies or contractless jobs pay even lower. People often overlook how "cheap" 1 dollar can be, but often overlook they're the top 3 with the biggest exchange rates. Yeah it's 1 dollar but it's 1 wage hour in my country. We're not exactly poor but that's no reason not to be frugal right?

[@fluffyfetlocks]

Up work is all about who can bid the lowest rate for their work. Freelance is all about who pays the most money to work

[@fluffyfetlocks]

If that person that was banned from up work was from Europe, up work is legally required to expose the data they have on the user. Including any "reports" that they supposibly have to keep "private" from the user

[@ProgrammingAddict]

Love the thumbnail, makes you think that he is apologizing for bashing upwork, and then he just obliterates it further

[@writegoodcode815]

Programming Addict Addict kinda felt it was bait-n-switch. wanted an excuse to hate upwork. while i agree with josh on just about everything, this is not one. (don’t don’t read that in josh’s middle management voice)

[@letslearnabout4934]

Yeah, I came here thinking "What the hell...".

[@ducksoop.x]

Honestly if you've been subbed to Josh for longer than a few months you know what's up. Lol.

[@ProgrammingAddict]

@@writegoodcode815 Yeah I see your point. He does deliver this info about the websites like it's the worst thing in the world, but he still puts out valuable information - that all these websites try to lock you down so they can take the piece of the pie, and if they're your only source of income they hold your well being since they can just ban you for no reason. For Josh, it seems that this is unacceptable and that's I think why he delivered it the way he did, but it's good to be at least aware of what you're getting yourself into if you decide to go that route

[@howeverandrew4526]

good marketing!

[@Andrewlangat]

Upwork is like a restaurant that charges to give you the Menu, then charges you for your order, and for the meal.

[@ethancollins5807]

Plus you also cook the meal.

[@ryanhealy4459]

You wrote this same response in another post

[@normalguyize]

I would say more like a university, you pay for the classes, for each test, and the semester. And in the end you don't really feel like you achieved anything.

[@simeonnedkov894]

And $3500 if you want to take the leftover home :D

[@yashsharma6269]

EA is worried now.

[@sheansager5350]

Hey man, I feel like you're one of the few KZbinrs that has been honest and open to their channel since day one. I am a new kid in front-end programming whose leaving the military for a new adventure and starting over. You're one of the few I can relate. Keep making awesome contents.

[@JoshuaFluke1]

Roger that. Appreciate you

[@JiggyJones0]

I love when people say "it's a private company they can do what they want, if you don't like the TOS, don't agree to it and don't use their service". Here's the thing, many companies write in the TOS that they can change the terms at anytime without notifying you. They treat it like a contract but how many contracts do you know that allows one party to change the terms at anytime without notifying the other party? The answer, none, because that's not a contract. So they shouldn't be allowed to hold you financially liable for violating their little rules. It's complete and utter bullshit.

[@effexon]

why is Uber so successful? they operate with similar practise, yet without drivers it wouldnt be possible...

[@TealJosh]

@@effexon Uber is successful, but they are horrible for the drivers.

[@CharlieTheAstronaut]

Of course UW has to (and does) inform clients of changes, and they usually will give you a period of time where you can explicitly not agree to the changes in which case usually you will leave the contract (close your account in this case), I do not know where you got that information. From many comments here I see that people are mad at Upwork for not making them tons of money or not fast enough, or for other reasons that they themselves are responsible for. It is all that "the teacher does not like me" mentality...

[@CharlieTheAstronaut]

@@effexon Not even remotely similar, uber has people doing a very particular thing, while upwork is just a marketplace where supply and demand meet in many different forms. Personally, I paid over 1500 USD to Upwork in fees last year and I do not regret one cent of that, I do not have to care about marketing or a website or portfolio, it all happens naturally.

[@webbike]

Most of the time these TOS are just bullshit scare tactics, nothing more.

[@HumansOfVR]

the politeness in these emails are so fake

[@alanhowitzer]

Their politeness is more like passive aggressive anger.

[@Anderhils]

its a policy

[@jjhunter555]

I couldn't agree more.

[@henriherrera9744]

@@patientlyunaccountable6805 Also, if it´s a person, it can be someone copy-pasting a script. I saw it before.

[@GendelfLugansk]

@@patientlyunaccountable6805 A lot of freelancers are from there that's why most banned are from there. But they ban people from other countries as well and for ridiculous reason - if clients do not accept your proposals for a long time, you can be banned. But we all understand that clients refuse if you are charging more than others. Which means this policy leads to lower bids and this looks super-stupid to me. If company takes percentage, they should be interested in higher prices, not lower.

[@jsmedenilla4524]

If you make Upwork as your main source of income, you will have a hard time. But if you make it secondary and still have a full-time job, it will do wonders.

[@fabianobispo8110]

Last job I applied costed me 21 connects. It is now waaay more expensive. And the clients won’t even look the proposals, keep them there until they expire and the connects won’t be refounded. I bought 100 connects these days, I’m top rated freelancer, now I’m almost running out of connects and I haven’t had one single aplicantion reviewd by a client.

[@y2knoproblem]

These freelancer services are like casinos. The house always wins.

[@Sanya192]

Not true I've tried online poker and freelancer. I got good money from one side and on the other people were trying to use me like garbage giving me extra duties or leave bad rating and couldn't got a lot chances. So casinos are nicer.

[@SosetaFurioasaJr]

@@Sanya192 lmao nice one

[@majestinostario1341]

There're not Non profits brother!

[@HoucKSF]

If a company ever bans you without reason. Demand full information from your account as per GDPR. They don't reply within 30 days, report them. They will be fined.

[@TatharNuar]

Usually doesn't work if you live outside the EU though.

[@soonfamous]

Report where?

[@UnordinaryCarl]

@@soonfamous GDPR EU laws

[@avananana]

@@TatharNuar Pretty sure that GDPR holds as long as a company is serving their service in an EU country. Correct me if I'm wrong, but even Google, which is an American company, has to comply to GDPR since they are serving users in the EU. Now, if you don't live in the EU you obviously can't use the GDPR since, well, you're not European. Might be mistaken, if I am please enlighten me, laws aren't written in a way such that normal people can understand them.

[@BookofYAH777]

even if they do reply, how can we tell if they are providing complete and accurate information? What if they just cook something up to make themselves look good while hiding more important information in their servers?

[@williamparrish2436]

I love how the dog is just chillin in the back... nothing like a dog to show you love!

[@Jaakeup]

I made a Fiverr account a few months ago. In those few months I got about 30 fake job requests from 1 day old accounts that were banned the next day. Then they turned off my account for not accepting any of the offers. Good times.

[@DrunkenUFOPilot]

My experience with fiverr wasn't much better. How it can work for anyone, I don't know, but I guess the owners of fiverr are making $$. I don't wish to be a "donor".

[@Janzer_]

did pretty well on it for a couple of months and i didn't charge a low cost for coding either. i think its just luck of the draw honestly.

[@princeRaj-pf6pn]

how to freelnace as 16 year old

[@tmit9992]

You don't job requests on Fiverr!

[@starscreen85]

That is a legit tactic to keep the competition in a niche down. It has worked so well that they have even torpedoed level 2 seller accounts. It was removed from a sub reddit i was surfing but the basic premise was. Outsource the scheme to india or china....have them make throw away accounts on fiverr.... flood the new/level 1 sellers in your niche with fake job requests. Sit back and watch Fiverr take out your competition.

[@davidtregde8732]

I've been hesitant to join upwork or similar sites, even though I've been hurting for work. I'm glad I stumbled on your videos. I'm going to continue networking and remove the middle man websites from the equation.

[@eahtashamulkarim8276]

Same here, I am going to delete my Upwork account. Faced some of the problems mentioned in the video clip. Each and every word of Joshua is correct.

[@samushunter0048]

Indeed is a better option. Free lol

[@greenranger2422]

I recently had something shitty on Upworks. I’m a pop culture writer, and there was a listing asking for an article titled “5 amazing facts about rockstars.” I applied to the job, then the job poster messaged me and asked “what are the 5 facts?” I then responded with 5 facts about rockstars, and then job poster never responded. This makes me think that they just used my facts and used them to write content for their own content . I also saw that they had completed 5 to 10 interviews for that same job, so it potentially means he got 5 facts from each of them. So that’s some fun bullshit to add to the list of shitty things about upworks. The job posters might just be using the platform to get content out of freelancers through interview questions and/or writing tests.

[@embohansen1203]

Perhaps a reason to feed them content that is (subtly) incorrect and/or internally logically inconsistent (they probably don't understand it if they are just collectors)? That can be fixed later during editing/touch-up.

[@greenranger2422]

thomas samson - I thought that was the “interview” portion of our interaction. But that’s not the point, the point is that I’m a freelancer desperate to grow my portfolio and many people on Upwork want to take advantage.

[@greenranger2422]

SquishyCandyftw - I agree that working for free is never ideal. But I live in NYC and it’s nearly impossible to get any entry level experience without taking non-paying internships. It’s wrong and shouldn’t be the norm, but that’s just how it is out here.

[@zhangjao6328]

This is something that happens on all freelancing websites, not just Upwork.

[@greenranger2422]

@@zhangjao6328 Oh... okay.... thanks then?

[@samushunter0048]

You saved me a ton of stress before diving deep into upwork. My spider senses were tingling from upwork but this opened my eyes to upwork shady business tactics.

[@MrBeach-fm1nj]

Wow, I was thinking about trying out upwork - it seems I'm better off delivering pizza. 😂

[@vizzo6742]

we seriously need to develop a blockchain powered freelancing site.

[@blizzardregulus]

Isn't that just trading bitcoin for stuff?

[@zAngus]

Why a blockchain based one for interest? Genuinely interested as idly thinking about building a freelancer style site.

[@ThePorschefan]

I've been thinking about that recently but my problem with that is that eventually is going to end up full of shitty companies and shitty positions. I think is better to build a presence with a website and post your services on craigslist and newspapers.

[@sk-sm9sh]

@LazicStefan sustainability is a very important concept. It means that whatever you are doing can be sustained for long period of time. If you're farming and in 10 years land is good for nothing - not sustainable. If you change to practices that can keep soil quality for 100s of years - now it's sustainable. It does not mean that every business talking about sustainability is really sustainable - just like if business talks about AI doesn't mean they do AI - but nonetheless the concept it self while a buzzword is still very important and meaningful. Blockchain on other hand is just gibberish that helps to hide the fact that your IPO or whatever it is has no added value to offer. It's a a low level implementation detail of database systems. Normally you would not talk about technical implementation details of your database when you are describing a business or a social movement. But when your movement is about nothing then talking complicated gibberish helps to forget that you aren't solving real problems.

[@thewatermelon3831]

@LazicStefan spot on, buzzwords are thrown around without understanding its real meaning and intention. soon we'll have some genius spouting 'sustainable forest fires'

[@JustKidding215]

This channel is so underrated! These days too many tech channels capitalize on “baseless optimism” like many universities and the fact that you keep it real makes this channel instantly stand out. Upwork, Fiverr, or office Jobs all have one thing in common. No one wants to be the first everyone wants prior experience. Find someone extremely knowledgeable in their field and pay them shit. You can end up a broke freelancer much like an unemployed DBA or Sec Analyst or Dev. The fact that people still buy that there is a “shortage” of skilled pros is simply unbelievable. I feel bad for all these kids with bachelors, CompTIA/Cisco certs, countless hours spent on Udemy, home labs, github projects etc. who will have to pick up a job at Starbucks to pay their bills. Standing out from the sea of techs is much harder these days than these channels make it seem. Giving up Netflix for 2 years to spend 6 productive hours on coding/day is just simply not enough. Upwork will only work if you can standout from the sea of freelancers. We need more channels like yours that tell it how it is.

[@DavidManouchehri]

My company heavily relies on prior GitHub projects to make hiring decisions for developers. We tend to prefer those who are new with less experience and want to prove themselves, but have been incorrectly overlooked by other companies.

[@SometimesDev]

I got banned on Fiverr for having bad customers

[@Tanya-yu6mf]

Imagine being banned because assholes chose to work with you

[@magn8]

@@Tanya-yu6mf exactly what he has written

[@cyqry]

@@Tanya-yu6mf For some reason this reminds me of tipping culture in America. People trying to justify it by saying that "if you do good service, you get good tips". Nah, customers are going to be fucking assholes and your paycheck is going to suffer no matter how good you do. Same for Fiverr.

[@cyqry]

@Solve Everything Its online, and people making careers on the web is relatively new... so I'm assuming no. Especially given most law-makers don't seem to grasp the concept of the Internet to begin with, and since its the Internet I think its hard to determine who would have legal domain over it anyways.

[@ibrahimmukuria9216]

Same here... the more Fiverr grew, the worse it got

[@bluebasementmusic]

The man's advice is rock solid really. I'm a dev that started it all with nothing then here 5 years later I made $30 on Upwork in those 5 years on Upwork however all my real experience is from indeed applying for contract gigs at agency's. Make yourself an LLC and most companies will even pay you substantially more

[@LedoCool1]

Huh. It's a good thing I didn't start working on upwork then. It's a good thing you tell these things because nobody actually taught me how to look for job/negotiate pay/freelance. Maybe it's their mechanism for reducing competition, but I'd rather have someone to help me and then help someone else in return.

[@MrMuffinLord]

My whole career started from upwork.Thankfully I was on it before it was pay to win so I could apply to 30 jobs per month as a free user. It took me 4 months to get one gig after sending out around 120 CVs and while the percentage that they take is ridiculous, it was a good place for a starting freelancer to make contacts and try out the freelance life. That being said, I can't imagine using that platform ever again with how it is now or even as a professional as it has become so crappy towards newcomers and the cuts that they take are insane.

[@EleroyGreen]

People-per-hour actually gets this no-contact policy even further. You can't even write words such as "email", "chat", "money" or "payment" when messaging your client and they can't do it as well, it will automatically block the send button. I remember when I was still trying to work on such platforms, there was a client who needed a simple change of email address on his website and we couldn't understand each other for some time just because of this idiocy he couldn't explicitly say what he needed. And I believe aside from charging you 20%, they also charge your client 30% on top of it.

[@CaptmagiKono]

Would love to see the crazy ways that people would try and get around this. Probably simple shit like code-words and putting characters between words.

[@EleroyGreen]

@@CaptmagiKono Well, my client simply got scared to do something like that (they give you a long message when you try send message with these words on how they will block you if they decide that you're trying to contact another side outside the platform in any way) and was trying to his best abilities to explain what he wanted without saying it.

[@maysumraza8198]

@@EleroyGreen How do you show the website you've made to the client? for eg, if you've developed the website in the local environment and you are using a software like NGROK to generate a link that allows your client to see the website without you even uploading it on live server. Do people per hour allow this? I mean providing a generated link to your client to view the site? I hope you got what is said. Sorry for my bad English :D

[@EleroyGreen]

@@maysumraza8198 Your English is not bad my friend :) While I was there it was totally allowed. Actually, another one of my clients send me full information on his account on some hosting (link, password, username), through which anyone could get his credit card info (he was having it there for auto-renewing subscriptions). So, back then at least, pph didn't mind you sending any information (even if it's really sensitive and can be used by any pph employee who happened to read your chat, probably with little consequences too :D) as long as you don't use forbidden words and don't try to contact the other side.

[@maysumraza8198]

@@EleroyGreen I really appreciate your help :) Thank you. I was thinking to start freelancing and I decided to start on people per hour, as connects on upwork are paid now and Fiverr is a saturated marketplace where you lower your price so much that it is just a race to the bottom. People per hour is better I think for starting and gaining some experience.

[@AvoidsPikes-]

This video should be thumbed up and shared everywhere.

[@Fantastic_Timez]

upwork more like downwork (I'll see myself out now)

[@hass89]

Fantastic_Timez just in case you’re still here. Get out.

[@Fantastic_Timez]

@@hass89 I can't find the door >:(

[@Ri-ci2of]

Outwork*

[@wendyslittleprogram3984]

"i'll get me coat..."

[@BarbaraMerryGeng]

Joshua ~ it’s good that you are teaching people how to navigate the new business models .. Much appreciated.

[@profitablepythonfm]

I am so happy you are using your influence to help this group of people. The scummy scams go beyond the platform fees, the course creators coaching people to build their freelance empire by using those platforms are equally terrible.

[@luxmotion2508]

I cannot be more agree on all what you just said. I have been on Upwork since its inception back in 2015 when someone bought Odesk and Elance, which were thousand times better than Upwork, and merged them into this monster that has been slowly turning into a small getto of a few people selected to defend their trenches at all cost. I really miss the era when I joined Elance back in 2008 and I got a chance of making a full time freelance income for almost 8 years straight thanks to their excellent management and fair fees but when Elance disappeared, Upwork started dismanteling everything that made Elance so great. Some of the most remarkable "achievements" of Upwork that I have seen during all these years are: - 2 Upwork's CEOs have resigned in less than 5 years - A couple of years ago Upwork's servers suffered a considerable amount of downtimes which led to thousands of users being deprived of ANY communication with their clients missing deadlines and delivery commitments. (I have an entire folder of dozens of screencaptures showing the errors, and the silly excuses from Upwork's tech support) Some of those downtimes spanned up to even more than 48 hours on some instances. - Upwork support forum created with the most loyal Upwork's fans (Elance had no need for that as user support was so great that was able to solve most of the issues with their own internal staff alone) I have seen lots of memorable disrespectful assistants treating user complaints like shit shifting the blame of their claims on them most of the times. - removal of Elance score that did not punished you if you spend long periods of time without getting jobs or simply working for a single client as it happens now. - removal of realtime assistance chat. - Increasing the fees from a max 15% for the higher budged bids to a wooping fixed 20% for ALL the projects. - decrease of specific value of free and paid connects, which had the same value disrgarding the budged of every project till now. Now some projects cost you even 6 connects to bid for. - I could go on and on and on but I'm not sure how much time I'll need to spend to explain all I have seen during these last years. Anyways thank you if anyone spent the time reading and thank you Josh to put all in perspective and give us the opportunity to share our experience with you here.

[@offset25]

I love seeing people share stories here and reading about people's viewpoints. I use upwork everyday and have done a lot of business on there. While the fees suck I will be happy to pay since the leads can be high quality.

[@ryugaryuga624]

Thanks man, I am learning to code and it's good to know real stuff about these so called freelancing websites before I even think of working as a web developer.

[@misssincere5762]

Ryuga Ryuga Me too!

[@ddevulders]

Upwork made me feel like that one time I bought myself a suit, the gentleman invited me in for coffee to discuss my wishes and I spent almost 1400 dollars on a custom suit. Later on I checked the receipt and saw he billed me 5,80 for the coffee I drank when he invited me in.

[@robwembley]

Superb video ! Thank you Joshua for 'dishing the dirt' on scumbag websites that use and abuse exceptionally talented people trying their level best to make their way in the world.

[@X19-x5f]

This is some good info for those of us trying to break in to the business. Thanks Josh.

[@Tanya-yu6mf]

Thank you for making another video on Upwork! This one is even much better than the previous one

[@talanock]

these freelance sites sound like scams. the more they say they aren't a scam the more I think they are.

[@iliatalebzade8751]

The fact that not only you highlight the problems and scams within these services but also provide a solution is just awesome and I don't think we can thank you enough! keep up with the good work brother.

[@cmwky92]

Damn, they microtransactioned the hell out of middle-man work. Do the companies even pay proportionate fees to the freelance website too or do they just make money off of freelancers?

[@benjames648]

Thanks for your honest experience using these companies and saving the rest of us from having to go through this 🙌

[@doctorgears9358]

Man, I remember Gordon Ramsay going off on a restaurant owner in Kitchen Nightmares for taking their employees' tips.

[@AivarsMeijers]

Starting on Upwork is really hard. On beginning those are bad and cheap projects just to get some reputation. Then you can start to get in to the better projects ... but 10% cut is insane. If anyone is bad with math, that $400 from $4’000 invoice. I moved to the direct contracts as soon as get more seasoned in development and freelancing and I’m suggesting everyone to follow Joshua tips on this as well.

[@embohansen1203]

Upwork gets a bad reputation this way (all the people worth their salt leave as soon as they can, and only the worst ones stay). Why can't they see it? They could lift restrictions and lower rates as participants get more experience and use that as an incentive to stay on the platform.

[@justarandomstranger6467]

You can't really blame these websites.. they are taking away the most difficult part of owning a "freelancing" business, finding clients. Personally I don't use upwork or Fiverr, but I do tell all of my clients that I'll pay them 20% of a completed contract if they refer me to another entrepreneur or business who needs my services. Because they have an incentive to refer me. Of course they might refer me if I'm really good at what I do.. but I tell them that their recommendation has value to me. Because of that I'm never at a loss for work, I make six figures every year, and I gladly pay 20% commissions on referrals, because I don't have to spend ANY money advertising myself, or spend ANY time trying to find the next gig. Not to mention that I can usually increase my price 25% because the new customer is already sold on me due to the recommendation of the previous client. If you're just getting started, these websites bring the clients to you, you have a chance to win their business, and the website is entitled to earn some $ from that. Is that awesome? No. But no website is going to do that for free. Ever.

[@justarandomstranger6467]

@thomas samson There are more contract jobs available via upwork/fiverr than any other job site in the world. You absolutely should be applying for every contract job elsewhere, but there's more here, and they charge for it. That's why.

[@embohansen1203]

That sounds like a reasonable view and a way to approach it: using "freelancing" sites is a kind of marketing.

[@justarandomstranger6467]

@@embohansen1203 Which I believe is what Josh is saying, if you have to- get the work, and then see if you can convince your new found "client" to take the work off of upwork.

[@justarandomstranger6467]

@thomas samson I did not. That happens in real life too. My point is this: you should be paying referral fees whether you're working offline or online, so there's not much of a difference when you're getting started. It's obviously not ideal, but to act like the website is screwing you and is at fault is not my opinion. Bad customers are bad customers, and websites that provide a service deserve to be compensated. I believe upwork/fiverr IS providing a service, and I believe there are bad customers everywhere.

[@justarandomstranger6467]

@thomas samson I have a client in Arizona who owes me $5000 and has no intention to pay. It would cost me more than that to sue him and win. I much rather would have spent that 5000 on referral fees where I bet more people would have paid me than one guy offline. You can't just assume from comments that the entire website is robbing people and it's worthless. They are providing a valuable service by bringing clients to you. Clients will refuse to pay if they're crappy clients regardless of whether they are on a website like upwork or whether they found you from word of mouth or on indeed or anywhere else. What else you got?

[@scottridings6008]

When I saw the title of this I laughed out loud, lol!

[@DaLoler1]

You "laughed out loud, laughed out loud!" ? :))

[@CameronCobb]

Bush Lee lol

[@str33tkng]

This information needs to be spread much further than your channel. Thank you for posting this! Many new programmers can get screwed because of this. I hope you can get this information to magazines or something.

[@MachineLearningwithPhil]

I made a decent chunk of change on Upwork, but it was almost always a bad experience. I can't really recommend it anymore, and the last time I touched it was March of this year. Never again.

[@CaptmagiKono]

Just curious, what was bad about the experiences? Was it the clients that were especially annoying, or was it the website that was making it more difficult than it needed to be?

[@sanatanmeaning]

I have used upwork for a week, it was very demotivating!!!

[@jacob.olenick]

I did 1 job on upwork a few years ago and since I didn't make over $100 for the job upwork kept my money and wouldn't allow me to cash it out.

[@SoFreshBlaze]

Wow that's crazy. Reminds of KZbin's ADsense 10dlr limit

[@zoranc6674]

what is your speciality on upwork?

[@zhangjao6328]

By default, Upwork will automatically pay out whatever is on your account, to the account you specified, like Paypal or whatever, at certain times when you are over a certain threshold. $100 is the default.I work on Upwork now and it's a bitch finding the "Get Paid" thing, but they've never withheld my money. Google "Upwork Get Paid" and you should be able to get the money out.

[@robm2296]

Speaking as someone who fell away from Freelance in part because of these sites, thank you for this video. There are far too many shady companies who use their PR and fake online reviews and a slick website to cheat people - and it makes me genuinely hate capitalism at large.

[@koma7778]

In communist china fraud is even more than capitalist countries. Something to think about. You need to correct your false thinking.

[@robm2296]

​@@koma7778 'Oh but China does it too!' So what? I'm fully aware China (a state sponsored capitalist country with aspects of communism, look it up) is also laced with the same problems. What does that change about the exploitative nature of these sites that are allowed to run unchecked? You took my dislike for the current system and then went 'Oh So YoU lIKe ChInA?' as if the world is just a choice between China's bullshit or the bullshit of unchecked rampant exploitative capitalism. And I have false thinking?

[@ashlyash63]

Random but I love how into it the dog is... He's just staring into your soul at one point.

[@Kryssthealien]

This video has been REALLY helpful! Thanks.

[@alanhowitzer]

Finding and maintain the work is a job in and of itself.

[@funnyguyinlondon]

This is a gem of a channel

[@abhishek.chakraborty]

Thanks a lot, Josh ! Appreciate your fearless expose of these 'helpful' sites that are worse than regular options..

[@peter9910]

Thanks for posting the video! It's so degrading to be part of these "freelance" websites

[@TheKEEEEEeK]

This is the kind of vids I subbed for + the doggo. Awesome.

[@Sil3nt907]

What I noticed about up work josh is that a lot of people who do well have a pretty big social media presence, which in turn lands them more jobs

[@IllusionSector]

2:47 _Most if not all the jobs posted on _*_The Ladders_*_ and _*_FlexJobs_*_ can be found and applied to for free on other websites._ - Makes total sense, don't it? Think about it: If you're an employer, it'd be counterproductive not to post the job on as many platforms as you can - free *or* paid.

[@micpowers1136]

Without a job how are you supposed to pay to get one??????

[@DrunkenUFOPilot]

You're supposed to start off already with a nice pile in the bank, apparently!

[@hanseldsilva2393]

Ever heard about savings? And they're not really charging any substantial amount, it's up to 90 cents per job

[@aonoymousandy7467]

your dog: "don't stop with the massage" 7:30

[@Rellikan]

Upwork = Free Market version of Government Taxes

[@trophieboi1820]

Worse thing is clients ask your phone number so that they can chat and communicate freely. But because of these sites...we have to insist on it and may even lose the contract.

[@mariaserra7799]

I am shocked about all these details..I thought they were 'decent'. Thanks for bringing this to light! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@notxbox5115]

I literally got an upwork ad on this video

[@TJ-rw7jn]

Thanks, Joshua Exposing Shady Freelance Commerce Sites. I hate corporate scum bags and there are millions as I am finding out. I wish you the best to continue on your journey.

[@Disthron]

*Only Work for Free if it's to build reputation* CGP Grey once talked about this, when it was topical a few years back. He described a strategy of making a work list and letting people know that work will be slow because working for free means you're only doing it in your spare time. If people like your stuff then the list will grow larger over time and at a certain point, you start offering a fee to jump to the head of the line. The discussion focused around creative type works, but I suspect that it could be adapted to other more technical types of freelancing.

[@dsjena]

Appreciate your work, Josh. More freelancers need to stand up for fairness and respect. The work that you do is so very important because you give people confidence raising their voice on issues that most of us know but often remain tolerated in fear of losing a job. Maybe we should start a union?

[@CaptmagiKono]

Thanks for keeping me from wasting my time and money on these sites.

[@anahuaco9726]

Bro, I'm very sadness with this. I was planning to work on freelancing, because in my country I don't have enought resources to travel about 3hrs to work in a local company.

[@mauricecooper9880]

Keep up the great work brother!!

[@deniscloudgeek]

I did one job on Upwork and it was low paying one for scoring reputation. I don't need this "Upwork" reputation any more, don't plan to use that service.

[@MiaMizuno]

HAHA, speaking about tips, happens in real life too. When I worked for a coffee shop, all tips that I got (or any other person) have been collected for a team-christmas dinner which I never attended in my life.....

[@BoiledKoolaid]

i'd love to say it's surprising that companies can legally get away with this level of barrier to exit, but considering all the non-compete clauses hidden in contracts out there it's so not

[@embohansen1203]

0:28 : There isn't any best freelancer site. Apply for contract jobs instead. 0:38 : Upwork's turn. American (California). en DOT wikipedia DOT org/wiki/Upwork 1:31 : Perhaps in an effort to cut down on the equivalent of spam (and scams)? By putting up a small monetary barrier. 3:55 : Yeah, that is not very exclusive... 4:45 : Two years non-compete on Upwork (equivalent). USD 3,500 opt-out fee. 9:24 : Freelancer DOT com's turn. Australian. en DOT wikipedia DOT org/wiki/Freelancer DOT com 12:02 : Fiverr's turn. Israeli. en DOT wikipedia DOT org/wiki/Fiverr 13:00 : Fiverr takes your tips. 14:33 : The solution... Contract jobs AKA "freelancing" 14:51 : Indeed. en DOT wikipedia DOT org/wiki/Indeed 15:12 : Stack Overflow Jobs. stackoverflow DOT com/jobs 15:52 : LinkedIn (!), Glassdoor. en DOT wikipedia DOT org/wiki/LinkedIn en DOT wikipedia DOT org/wiki/Glassdoor 16:17 : Make offers on Reddit to build brand and reputation. Josh worked for free! And is now credited in description for some KZbin videos. en DOT wikipedia DOT org/wiki/Reddit

[@25s.a]

First smart person who explained how that business works, telling the reality with details. Thank you very much. You are more professional than all that fake people that recommend something only because it's trending. Sorry for my english I'm taking classes. Blessings

[@Shá_doe]

Bro youre my news network haha, i greatly appreciate all that you share.

[@0xcoder]

You have some good points. I worked ~2000 hours on UpWork, now I'm thinking to try direct relationships with clients. UpWork takes a big piece of my salary, I just never though that there are other ways to find clients. Thanks.

[@trodat07]

All those sites have their Terms of Services redacted like a protection racket 101.

[@UODZU-P]

The Twitch chat joke killed me

[@notjustanotherbrickinthewall]

That’s the reason why I’m not on those sites.

[@crypticutopia7228]

Josh: "I was wrong" Me: "Wait is Upwork good?" Josh: "Upwork isn't bad, it's hot garbage"

[@garylillich2311]

As an employer / client, I really liked Upwork at first. but when they wanted to charge me a monthly fee to allow more invites, I liked them less. I do feel it is unfair for freelancers to have to pay to apply for a job. I do really like Upwork for small, simple jobs or projects. I have always found a fl to do a task on UPwork.

[@SoorajAntony007]

Upwork takes tips too, it's just called Bonus.

[@stormproductions9155]

I am so in love with your content. Keep up the good work!

[@jaiveekshah1232]

I was gonna post job on upwork but if this is what upwork does to freelancer then..F*** that! I'll find some freelancer myself within my network. Thank you Joshua Fluke.

[@MechanicalMarketer253]

Upwork for me is, and always was, a means to an end. I use it to find people who are interested in the type of work I do and build a reputation on upwork so I can get MORE clients. But after a month or so I ALWAYS get them off upwork.

[@LaynaCastro]

EXACTLY, it is not a place to be forever with the same client

[@dabaddest5536]

thank you for the insights! i hate upwork man i guess imma have to switch to job sites

[@AbrarAhmad-mz8vl]

Yes Josh...you are helping

[@thomaskayang6722]

Thanks a lot for your honest advice. This is a very eye opening video and I've learned a lot.

[@AngelDiazSEO-1]

Upwork does take 20% of any "bonuses" the client wants to give you.

[@JSmoove90]

Mostly of these sites are full of scammers I no longer use those platforms

[@marioadabachy]

The start is hard but if you succeed building a specific reputation you’ll face no competition on Freelancer. I work about 3 hours a day and make about 1000$ a week. They do get 10% but I like the freedom and flexibility.

[@JoshuaFluke1]

These types are jobs are rare.

[@marioadabachy]

Joshua Fluke there’s something you didn’t mention, you can become a “Preferred Freelancer” and they’ll take 15% instead of 10%, however you’ll literally get hammered with big jobs by Recruiters and you’ll never have to bid on anything or compete with anyone ever again. The way I see it is, I login, talk to a Recruiter, secure a big job for a week and work whenever I want and make money. It allows me to do my own thing and it’s better than a part-time job.

[@JoshuaFluke1]

@@marioadabachy if it's as good as you say, and no other options appeal, go for it

[@marioadabachy]

Joshua Fluke it’s definitely not a “career”, and isn’t even something that stays with u, I just see it as a good temporary way to make some cash while I do my own thing, that’s all.

[@JoshuaFluke1]

@@marioadabachy thats the way to do it

[@susanwentz3297]

I have been seriously considering closing down my Upwork account because, even though I was able to get a few decently paying writing jobs, too many people that sent me invitations to apply for their gigs wanted me to do a lot of research and work for a very small amount of pay. I sometimes told them frankly that I could make more money flipping burgers. I am looking for ways to find work on my own with no “middlemen”.

[@kennethconnors5316]

again you nailed it a very thoughtful explanation for newbies in the trade

[@grapy83]

Great video man. Thanks a lot.

[@JimanNajmi]

Upwork is not perfect but it changed my life. Rough start at first, but can be very lucrative once you find your niche. Been making 40k++ so far no problem.

[@cristinaquitto9958]

Jiman Najmi what do you do for leaving?

[@JimanNajmi]

@@cristinaquitto9958 Video editing.

[@sojournerinexile525]

You're my hero Joshua Fluke

[@heavenlyboy34]

Thanks! I'm just getting into freelance copywriting and this is going to save me a lot of nightmares.

[@MathinusG]

Getting jobs the regular way sometimes also cost. The hour in my car, the coffees and lunches I had to buy etc. You have to way up the returns versus the input. I worked via an agent at one time. The agent took twenty percent from me, but then I found out that she put on an additional twenty percent on the clients invoice as she handled the invoicing. I got a lot of work from her so I let it slide for a while.

[@rahulsbhatt]

Thank you so much for providing the solution. Damm you are like big bro for us, please continue doing so.

[@ashlyash63]

Great video! Was considering upwork but I'm glad I watched this first.

[@LucasMartins-el7kn]

The worst thing is not that they charge you 20%... These companies control your most valuable asset (as a freelancer): your customer network. They can take it away from you in a blink of an eye and years spent building upon your career are GONE. The more you work for them, the more dependable you are. NEVER put your dreams and your entire career in the hands of a company that doesn't give a shit to you.

[@offset25]

They can control getting new leads from their network, but you can always talk to the client off network.

[@nickjohnson1430]

That's why you work for a couple of years on a freelancing platform, provide great service, stay in touch with your clients -- so that you can exit the platform and start getting clients via referrals.

[@miketaiwanwalkcity6355]

I dunno why KZbin kept recommending your videos as I don't know you but that first video makes me love you! I was going to apply to Upwork and Fiverr... OMG you saved me so much time and frustration

[@BonkMasterFlex]

Your puppy is adorable :D

[@zilla_epics2214]

that dog is a mood