ICJ Genocide Case: South Africa Presents w/ Norman Finkelstein | Connections #86

[@Marius_vanderLubbe]

You have nothing to be ashamed of Professor Finkelstein.

[@brodie_johnson]

😢 I know.

[@jacquigraham7814]

I feel so privileged to being able to listen to these two intellectual giants speaking about today's ICJ case. It's like I entered another realm. So much wisdom, understanding, historical knowledge lighting events as they are happening now. I don't know which part was most fascinating as I was totally captivated from start to finish. I think best of all is that these complex issues are clearly explained in a unique and original manner yetbeasily understood by someone with my limited knowledge. I will listen to this podcast many more times. Thank you both, much appreciated

[@nidhalhammadi997]

No argument can change my support to Palestinians Thank you South Africa ❤

[@fairdose]

Norman is in fine form here - so glad to hear that some members of the South African legal delegation know about and read Norman's work. I'm happy that for all the years that Norman was out in the wilderness, looked down on and ignored, he's finally become the most popular public intellectual on social media and the younger generation listen to him and take him seriously. I'm sure Norman's hard work had something to do with the sea-change in pubblic attitute towards the Palestinian cause.

[@nonpareilstoryteller5920]

‘Human solidarity’ don’t forget it was the poor, super market workers, with so much to loose, the “Dunnes Stores” workers of Ireland, who went out on strike against apartied South Africa.

[@robertrichard6107]

The Bantustan System & the Refugee Overflow system to Gaza have many similarities.

[@rawlsrules]

What a "wonderful display of human solidarity": truly the most moving words I've heard in years.

[@billyclifton5710]

Blinne Ni Ghralaigh was the Irish lawyer who appeared for South Africa at the ICJ today. She was eloquent and powerful as Norman noted!

[@billyclifton5710]

And the Irish know national oppression very well!

[@yvonneyork1263]

Thank you Mouin Rabbani and Norman Finkelstein for your thoughtful, honest, and nuanced insights about this historic event.

[@Trishprattle]

Norman Finkelstein will forever be one of my favorite people.

[@verapawlak5260]

He is a kind, humble, sincere and moral man- nothing like Netanyahu, who is everything opposite.

[@niko7903]

You guys do NOT know Finkelstein then. The guy is an unhinged propagandist, terrorist-apologist, and pseudo-historian. Go read about how he treated his neighbors. He sued them and blatantly lied to try to get their child removed from them, and have them deported. Using language like having them locked up at the zoo, and "no sleep for you, apes". The guy is very unstable, and unwell. Go read all the letters and harassment he engaged in and see, read the case details and findings, then come back and tell us what a "kind, humble, sincere and moral man" you believe him to be. The reason he didn't get tenure, was because he was unhinged, with unprovoked ad-hominem attacks, and problematic academic rigor. His fans are misguided, and swayed by confirmation bias, and ignorance. If you actually honestly researched his positions and assertions, you'd find that he is very often objectively wrong, to the point of intellectual dishonesty, or just plain stupidity, with plenty of depraved justifications of violence for those he is biased towards, contradicting logic for other conflicts, and absurd misrepresentation of quotes to fit his narrative. This is the only subject he can garner attention on, and he has capitalized on the topic, and he possesses a personal stake in promoting falsehoods. He holds no optimism for Palestinians achieving freedom, he has openly acknowledged that fact. His sole intention is to profit from narrating their downfall, thus he avoids criticizing Palestinian actions and will never suggest alternative paths to pursue. His aim is to fuel the pro-Palestine camp with reasons to feel deceived, ensuring they persistently demand the unattainable. He has no clue about this ICJ case, too. His understanding is embarrassing. He has claimed to have read it several times, but gets so much of it wrong. I believe he has reading comprehension problems, because he always says he reads things multiple times, yet always seems to be unable to correctly represent the facts of what he read. The only thing the court was ruling on, was that Palestinians qualify as a group deserving of protection from genocide, that South Africa has a right to bring the case, but they did not weigh the evidence against Israel and find that genocide was plausible, that was not the purpose at this stage of the case. He gave some laughable qualifying for the Olympics analogy during a debate, that was asinine, he has no clue what he is talking about. Also, South Africa is a horrible country to be bringing the case, they have a history of welcoming, refusing to condemn, and running interference for war criminals with stronger evidence against them than Israel. Go read about the many hypocritical passes they have given those who have committed better established war crimes and genocides. Their case is pretty weak, too, when you understand the evidence in full context, it's not going anywhere, they just really really hate Israel, and are allies with those who too hate Israel and the west, so they see this as a way to be a thorn in their side. South Africa couldn't even bring themselves to condemn Hamas' Oct attack, give condolences to Israel's loss of civilians, instead they removed their diplomats from Israel, and welcomed Hamas militants to South Africa, even though South Africans were also killed by Hamas' attack. They can't even condemn Russia's invasion and many calls and actions that better match genocidal intent, because South Africa are bad-faith actors. Norm's takes on Russia and the trans community is also quite eyeopening, go read about those, and again tell us how "kind, humble, sincere and moral man" you believe him to be.

[@ladybeekeeper7777]

Thank you for the podcast gentlemen. Watching this horror from Australia I am disgusted with the behaviour of Israel, the US, and even my own govt recently supporting air strikes against Yemen. It helps to hear some sane voices are weighing in on this terrible genocide on impoverished and desperate people in all the Middle East countries. For decades the US and its allies, my country included have waged wars and caused problems on what it sees as weaker nations for no other reason than power and the steal from them. The more people like you who speak out does help. The tides are changing I feel. Our world lacks compassionate and decent leaders in almost every country of the world. I pray that changes

[@Tesla_Death_Ray]

Australia has one of the judges. As a US client state, they're a guaranteed No. Blood on Australian hands.

[@sisportsengine5425]

Great interview and insight. Thank you for the good job. Finkelstein is sterling as usual.

[@ahmedelsadat2465]

Mr norman you are a great person defending a great cause against great powers. My respect

[@jylyhughes5085]

Thank you again Professor Norman and Mr Mouin.... 🇵🇸🇿🇦🇵🇸🇿🇦🇵🇸

[@robertrichard6107]

🇳🇱🇵🇸🇳🇱🇵🇸🇿🇦🇿🇦

[@Haruto---遼人]

Thank you professor Norman. You have nothing to be ashamed of. We are judged by out deeds and actions, not our ethnicity and race. I hope you see a free Palestine one day.

[@Baobabaloo]

As a proud member of the Rainbow Nation, thank you to both of you. Justice will prevail! ❤

[@Lina.v.Afrika]

For Reference, the South African Legal team were as follows(not in order): Tembeka Ngcukaitobi SC, John Dugard SC, Adila Hassim SC, Max Du Plessis SC, Blinne Ní Ghrálaigh KC, Vaughan Lowe KC, Lerato Zikalala, and Tshidiso Ramogale. Opening remarks were made by Mr Vusi Madonsela, South Africa's ambassador to the Netherlands and Minister of Justice and Correctional Services of the Republic of South Africa, Ronald Lamola.

[@bambamkitring6666]

Much respect to South Africa to represent the International community condemning Israel genocide in Gaza...

[@Carlos-gf7uq]

Great episode. Thank you, gentlemen!

[@shanihandel9621]

Thank you! I really connected to what Norm was saying at the beginning. I barely identify as Jewish, yet I felt deep shame.

[@Nina-q9y4p]

Mouin and Norman are two of my favorite scholars on ME affairs. Definitely worth watching the whole series of conversations.

[@murraymicha]

How about Western Asia instead of Middle East? It conforms with the changed geopolitical reality, no?

[@nexusgamering]

Blinne Ní Ghrálaigh KC was her name. She was great!

[@amranaadan1112]

Great discussion. Long live professor Finkelstein❤

[@azzy1971]

This discussion is world class! should be made into an educational study material 👍👍👍

[@AliHSyed]

The Irish lawyer from South Africa’s team is called Blinne Ni Ghralaigh

[@pilarlluchmarti4494]

Beautiful conversation. Thank you so much!

[@heidis3993]

During these past weeks, I have learned that the Irish have a deep feeling of brotherhood with the Palestinians, a brotherhood based on their mutual experience of oppression, even to the extent of the U.K. playing the bad guy. The Irish needed to be part of this, they deserved to be a part of this.

[@frictionpeg]

Binne Ní Ghrálaigh, usually anglicised as Crowley.

[@murraymicha]

GMLS (Gabh mo leath-scéail = excuse me, in Irish) @@frictionpeg A feature of Irish modern Surnames, and first names, is the colonialist anglicisation of original Gaelic names giving rise to much speculation - typified in this superb Irish person's name: which is also anglicised as Greally, or O'Greally, etc ("Ní signifies "Daughter of...= from "Íníon" ) ... My surname is "Murray," which, plausibly, be traced back to an anglicisation of the original Gaelic word for Mary, Mother of G-d _" Muire." I'm delighted with Binne Ní Ghrálaigh - not only giving her all in her advocacy on behalf of the Palestinians - but claiming her own name on a world stage. A massively underestimated feature of the Anglo-Irish conflict has not only been about 'Freedom" and "Independence" but the achievement of "parity of esteem." Our "Oslo" was the Good Friday Agreement which delivered that. Binne Ní Grálaigh made a significant contribution to that by her work on prosecuting the "Bloody (British Paratrooper) Sunday case - and her follow-up work for the victims and others affected by it.

[@heidis3993]

@@frictionpeg Thanks. Gaelic is such a closed book to me that I find it difficult to remember a name - when I cannot even make a guess at the pronunciation. But, now that I am retired, learning Irish Gaelic could be a new hobby.

[@heidis3993]

@@murraymicha This puts me in mind of the Wind Talkers, of WWII, Navajo who worked for the U.S. government and were able to communicate in unencoded messages, using their native language.

[@hmmmmmmminteresting]

Conor McGregor and Bono both said they stand with Israel 🇮🇱❤️🇮🇱

[@FrancoisMouton-iu7jt]

A deep discussion by two beautifull souls. Thank you.

[@kateh8269]

These discussions have been so helpful. I was sickened by Israel's defence today, cant wait to hear what they say about that.

[@egay86292]

as an Irish communist allow me to suggest that the missing quid for South Africa's quo is human solidarity.

[@rhonda6791]

This very insightful discussion could only come about from two old friends who respect each other. I loved it, thank you both.

[@MuskaSanjish]

Love listing to Norman

[@alutacontinua725]

I have been watching Norman for years on Russia Today. He was denied tenure at a US University. He was appointed to the university of Ankara. Norman you are my hero.

[@verapawlak5260]

Mine, too and of many others.

[@Dr.zaidi4]

For the first time Finkelstein sounds happier,lighter and optimistic after awhile

[@harryd5893]

Wonderful, wonderful and absolutely breathtaking discussion! Never knew about Jadaliyya. No thanks big enough but still thank you for putting this such a learned and inspiring analysis!

[@evanfirebrand]

"display of pure human solidarity" Amen! 🇿🇦

[@selfreflection2117]

I enjoy watching this discussion between Mouin and Norman. Very informative. Thank you to the Jadaliyya team.

[@Josi_Ony]

Please do your research and name the black South African representatives by name! It is beautiful to see BLACK South Africans who survived Arpartheid advocating for other people who are facing the same and genocide. So, please, give them the respect and credit they deserve by mentioning their names and not only those of their white counterparts.

[@Josi_Ony]

@yep9462 Thank you! And I totally agree - everyone on that team deserves the utmost respect!

[@lizmednick3842]

Thank you for this series of discussions. They're really invaluable.

[@polopadic7954]

you two make the perfect commentator team. Let long awaited justice come for Palestine from the ICJ!!

[@DavidMiller-zs1os]

Wonderful conversation. Thank you!

[@cherrycupcake6327]

Wonderful analysis!! Ty both for this - I shared many thoughts & feelings. After many weeks of awful reports, it was a moment of light.

[@sandrajensen497]

Great discussion!

[@Ntuthu-ZA]

6:48 one of the women was an ethnically Indian woman, also South African. The Irish are very much pro-Palestine. They too went through centuries of subjugation, so including the Irish lady was brilliant.

[@niko918]

I’m grateful to wake up, and to much better informed regarding the history of Israel and the madness of Zionism and the apartheid Israel regime.

[@zuthestargazer]

Thank you so much for this!

[@kenw5437]

So grateful to the two of you. In solidarity with Palestine.

[@heidis3993]

This was very helpful in trying to absorb all the details of this case. Thank you both!

[@liveontheverandah]

Forensic scholar- fabulous! ❤

[@Marius_vanderLubbe]

11:56 good point, Mr Rabbani.

[@humee7088]

Thanks a lot, both of u. May u get the reward to speak and share the truth, Aameen.

[@mary-annemareikura728]

Thank you Mr Finkelstein and the podcast host for sharing the truth ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤

[@XV37]

I greatly appreciated this interview; both of you demonstrated a harmonious connection and deep knowledge on the subjects. Thank you for sharing your insightful analysis with us. 🙏🙌🙌🙌

[@sdeshera]

This is awesome. Love hearing you guys

[@MagdiNonDuality]

Great discussion. Thanks

[@Masawidfree]

Thanks very much 🙏🏼❤️

[@zakariyeyahye5566]

One day, while sitting with his companions, the Prophet Muhammad surprised his community by preaching, “Help your brother, whether he is oppressed or the oppressor.” A silent confusion overtook the community as people pondered the Prophet’s words. Then, a man asked what was on everyone’s mind: “O Prophet, we know how to help the oppressed, but how should we help the oppressor?” The Prophet smiled, anticipating the question, and replied, “By stopping the oppressor from oppressing.”

[@murraymicha]

Wonderful! I think it was Finkelstein who said recently those who set out to dehumanise the oppressed don't escape their own dehumanisation.

[@zakariyeyahye5566]

@@murraymicha Oppression comes in many forms. There is obviously the oppression of the tyrant over a people. But, tyrants also exist in homes, school grounds, workplaces and so on. The oppressor, feeling a loss of his or her humanity, is never happy and is, to the contrary, quite miserable despite outward displays. The oppressor is also always living in fear - fear of losing a grip on his or her real and imagined power or a fear that the oppression will come back to bite them. The state of the oppressor is truly worth pitying.

[@zakariyeyahye5566]

@@murraymicha The Prophet Muhammad said, “the greatest sacred struggle (jihad) is to speak the truth in front of a tyrannical ruler.” And when Moses and Aaron are instructed to go challenge Pharaoh’s oppression, God says to them, “Speak to him gently so that he may take heed, or show respect” (Qur’an 20:44).

[@shaynelahmed6323]

Really enjoyed this....norman F appears hopeful❤

[@mozartsbumbumsrus7750]

Excellent observations of the opening of the end of something and the beginning of something.

[@mel_tr]

In today's analysis, can you please educate us about the law in the situation that if the ICJ comes back with an unfavorable verdict for SA, can other countries file other cases of genocide, crime against humanity or other grieveous charges?

[@HM-ve3kz]

Thank you for this great conversation!

[@abdulkadirnuur9910]

thank you for inviting me again

[@Marius_vanderLubbe]

34:20. Again, excellent.

[@TheTruthNothiingButTheTruth]

Guys I even heard about itzhak shamir asking to ben Gurion what do we do with them ? (I.e Nakba) And Ben Gurion giving a sign with his hand meaning total killing or expelling. Because he had the experience of Nuremberg and was afraid of written instructions … am I right Prof. Finkelstein ?

[@egay86292]

exactly. the Nazis, too, had PLENTY of lawyers.

[@rdklkje13]

Thank you so much for this! All the background and somewhat insider information is very, very helpful to understanding these proceedings better. Looking forward to catching up with the next sessions!

[@paulmatters2641]

Wonderful discussion. Norman in fine form

[@nbach2202]

Awesome duo. 💯

[@Kaway_K]

Great work guys 👍 ❤

[@gs123]

This is such a great series! Both commentators are top-notch

[@MichaelBogue-h1k]

Incredibly insightful. Thank you! Mouin - also love your humour.

[@hoopoe9629]

Great discussion - you hit the key points. Looking forward to your analysis of Israel’s defense! I would just want to ask regarding quid pro quo vs. human solidarity: The extent to which Arab and Muslim nations have been politically sidelined should not be overlooked. To what extent might South Africa’s decision to raise the case have actually been a calculated joint decision between BRICS allies?

[@theulins2896]

Assalamualaikum, Thank you.

[@Josi_Ony]

I really enjoy your conversations and learn a lot but it was like a punch in the gut watching you making an effort to remember the white representatives' names and not do the same for their black counterparts. The fact that there are white people representing South Africa is not astonishing. It is astonishing that South Africa has come so far that black people are meaningfully contributing to and leading South Africa on such a stage. Just think about other nations that 'abolished discrimination,' so to say and the people that hold power there.

[@elizabethferrari3647]

I wish you two would do this once a month at least. It's such a relief to listen to both of you.

[@AmusedCoralReef-ts9ro]

The soldier's joy singing and dancing the death of men, women,children,babies everything annihilated like it was a football game. Utterly Disgraceful

[@elsonck2523]

Have you heard the Israeli children's song... "In one year we will annihilate everything"? It will shock you. They should play that song at this hearing. .

[@AmusedCoralReef-ts9ro]

@@elsonck2523 no I have not heard it. A children's song you say

[@verapawlak5260]

I am ashamed to call myself a Christian. You are so right.

[@PFA...]

Great stuff, push the Prof to different positions.

[@xtrmo7983]

Hey Jadaliyya, just took a look at your new videos to see if you had any new content about the icj verdict and noticed your superb interview with Norman Finkelstein is not listed. It jumps from 83 to your latest videos skipping all videos with Norman. Loved to see how you two men look up to each other. Haven’t seen anything like it except in a fictional work in the movie HEAT, between Vincent and Neil

[@langleychris8667]

Thank you

[@senadmarovic3530]

So much for democratic republic of Israhell

[@verapawlak5260]

It is a jewish Zionist state. The Hassidics spit at Christians when they visit and tell them to go home. Why do you think Christ called them "vipers"?

[@aamnahere6250]

In Israel's case, every accusation is an admission.

[@IMG343]

Wow predicted their defense perfectly

[@alutacontinua725]

Adila Hassim is an excellent human rights lawyer. A few years ago she had the state of South Africa in the dock, regarding neglecting of patients at care places.

[@verapawlak5260]

May God bless her.

[@verapawlak5260]

" I was hungry , and you fed me, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I was in prison, and you visited me, I was naked, and you clothed me...." This is what it will be like when Prof Finkelstein dies and stands before God.... who will say to him: " Enter into my Kingdom, for inasmuch as you have done this to one of these, you have done it unto me..." Prof. Finkelstein: You are a moral, kind and godly man and the Kingdom of God awaits you.

[@Ntuthu-ZA]

You allied it!! Their defence is indeed hinging on erasure.

[@alicerose9140]

It is Love.

[@theokirkley]

Thanks for the comments

[@kashifrizwan8954]

From a muslim state i feel literally shamed. Deep respect for South Africa.

[@rypoelk997]

South Africa's legal team will make a good movie someday

[@melchoraslez1689]

5:15 with all due respect to Mr. Finkelstein, I think this is an oversimplification. Even before the rise of Nazism, you had the genocide of the Nama and Herero people in Africa. The only "new" thing about Nazism in Germany was that this time they committed genocide against their own population (German jews, communist etc.) So the "great german civilization" didn't just become barbaric with the rise of Nazism. They did to their people what they used to do in their colonies

[@geoffreylachner6779]

Hamas is the symptom, not the cause.

[@verapawlak5260]

Well put!

[@under-en6lo]

I thought the South African attorney was the most compelling

[@elialvah]

There were four of those. Which one?

[@egay86292]

it's not a competition.

[@under-en6lo]

The one who's actually South African. The one who showed the videos of IDF soldiers dancing and singing about killing all of Gaza@@elialvah

[@elialvah]

@@under-en6lo There were in fact four who are “actually” South African. I suspect you are trying make a clumsy point about heritage. Gather your thoughts and try again.

[@bricendayisenga40]

Extremely saddening to watch a genocide survivor tribe being prosecuted for committing a genocide

[@egay86292]

Stockholm syndrome. what goes around, comes around.

[@fun_ghoul]

The main Zionist perpetrators fled Germany before even the Kristallnacht, and then made a pact with Hitler to save their fellows -- rich Zionists -- at the expense of both orthodox Jews and Jewish communists, who both opposed Zionism. Also, the "tribe" narrative is discredited (e.g. Shlomo Sand).

[@verapawlak5260]

The arrogance of the Zionists blinds them. They are not good human beings. Settlers also like this.

[@kipwonder2233]

Regarding S.A. noting the illegitimacy of Israel's birth (i.e., The Nakba): The likelihood that Israel does NOT claim anti-Zionism, and/or equate anti-Zionism with antisemitism, is negligible🧏‍♀️

[@elsonck2523]

Agree though they don't have a leg to stand on. That is the beauty of this expose.

[@marie-laure.]

Based on their record, I would say they will use the snuff film to say they are the ones undergoing a genocide...

[@addorsubtract650]

Algo

[@rez_tu]

آقای ربانی،اجازه دهید صحبت کنند! لطفاً حرف ایشان را قطع نکنید!

[@zakariyeyahye5566]

Oppression comes in many forms. There is obviously the oppression of the tyrant over a people. But, tyrants also exist in homes, school grounds, workplaces and so on. The oppressor, feeling a loss of his or her humanity, is never happy and is, to the contrary, quite miserable despite outward displays. The oppressor is also always living in fear - fear of losing a grip on his or her real and imagined power or a fear that the oppression will come back to bite them. The state of the oppressor is truly worth pitying.

[@niko918]

The best of humanity is when there is no “ quid pro quo” thank you South Africa for representing the best and highest interests of humanity, and so terrible sad that so many other countries, nations and leaders have turned into such base and low representations of the worst of humanity.

[@abwab-g8n]

How does the algorithm know EXACTLY what I want to watch

[@gracerosegouvias1249]

Adila Hassim is definitely a person of colour, under Apartheid she would have been "classified" into one of the perfidious racial categories under Apartheid legislation as were all our Muslim/Islamic population. Islam has a heritage reaching back to 1652/3 when people of the Muslim faith were brought to the Cape Colony by the Dutch under the Dutch East India Company (the VOC). They were brought here as slaves and exiles - they were always integral and inextricably linked to the Liberation Struggle. There has never been any friction, separation of us and them historically and today.

[@robertrichard6107]

It was Czar Alexander II who established the Duma, that is still 60% Jewish today in Moscow.