Icon Veneration: A Catholic and Orthodox Case - Seraphim Hamilton, Michael Garten, Suan Sonna

[@catholicbeth2371]

My Grandma has a photo me graduating. It is nicely framed and on her sideboard. She cleans it regularly, and I am sure that she gives it a kiss every now and then. It is a symbol of her love for me and a reminder of my achievement in graduating. I am positive, however, she has never thought that the photo was me and never worshiped it. That is the difference.

[@calebstarcher4934]

Beautiful. All three of you are so intelligent and well-researched, I appreciate the charity and thought put into this.

[@noralg3081]

Thanks for following up on this topic it's one of the areas I struggle to explain to my protestant Relatives /friends. These videos help

[@ChristiEleison73]

Sancta Maria Ora pro nobis 🙏 💙 🙏

[@barrelagedfaith]

Great interview!

[@RedRoosterRoman]

Great job! 1 Cor 10 was the turning point for me. Seeing that the heart and intellect can determine if a sin is worshipping demons Or just eating some meat. Idols are nothing and icons are a declaration against monotheists- that deny the incarnation God bless

[@Patriarch.Chadimus]

This was absolutely fantastic!

[@steelfalconx2000]

I would be interested in what the original arguments against iconoclasts were back when it was a struggle within the church.

[@Jerônimo_de_Estridão]

Read the Acts of Nicea II and the work of John of Damascus.

[@lucduchien]

I find the bowing and kissing of icons to be very didactic to teach my heart what to reverence.

[@Malygosblues]

I wanted to float this idea on the most recent icon video. Dr. Ortlund seems to be a big fan of C.S. Lewis. But if Gavin's stance on icons is true, then Lewis depicted God as a beast of the field in the character of Aslan. It's the medium of imaginative fiction instead of paint, marble, canvas or wood but the principle is the same. And if murder and adultery entertained in the imagination is the same as the physical act, then the principle stands for idolatry. Ergo C.S. Lewis to Dr. Ortlund is an idolater. This line of reasoning is free for anyone to pick apart.

[@nathandaniels4823]

I’m jumping in before I’ve finished the episode, but one of the things one discovers when tackling these questions about the Orthodox Church is that EVERYTHING is connected. Nothing is truly categorical, and this needs to be considered when addressing Ortlund’s misgivings. Part of his apprehension about icons is rooted in a fundamentally different understanding of what happens to a person after death. If there is no belief that there is communication between the militant and triumphant Church, the idea of anything passing to a prototype is baffling at best. Another issue is what formed the heart of the Palamite controversy: to what degree are we able to participate in God? The typical Protestant hierarchical structure is the Trinity and then everything else. Because man cannot participate in God, it becomes extremely difficult to understand how it is that God actually communes with us (especially the more cessationist a Protestant’s orientation). Likewise, it is extremely difficult to see that when we venerate Holy people, whether directly or through icons, it is in fact God we are venerating in them. Put another way, we are venerating the degree to which they have God indwelling within them.

[@tonyl3762]

Some of Seraphim's biblical evidence seems too indirect and implicit to be persuasive to many. Michael's material and cultural context for it is fascinating.

[@nathandaniels4823]

Playing Devil’s advocate here, but as Orthodox Christians we profess that the prohibition on images in the Old Testament was partly or largely because the Christ was not yet incarnate. However, as Orthodox Christians, we also imply if not outright confess (through icons and hymnography) that the second Person of the Trinity was the Yahweh that appeared throughout the Old Testament, whenever Holy people came face to face with God (eg with Abraham at the visitation, with Moses, and with Jacob, who wrestled with Yahweh). These seem to be contradictions.

[@shiningdiamond5046]

They appeared in a non material way that had no description of circumscribed form that can assessed and the test goes out of its way to show such

[@RedRoosterRoman]

The conversational aspect of worship seems like it could also be used to understand the filioque. If our worship and relationship with God mirrors the inner life of the Trinity, the son would look back at love to the Father; And the spirit would be sent back in love -eternally Not trying to start an argument with our EO or OO brothers though ❤️🤝☦️✝️

[@bersules8]

DOCTOR Gavin Ortlund poopnPEE AECH DEEE

[@thelonelysponge5029]

Big if true!