IGNORANT ARMIES from 1989! Warhammer Book Club with Mira!

Well, it's official - this is now the WARHAMMER book club because we're doing a non-40k one! Ignorant Armies is one of the first collections of Warhammer Fantasy Battles short stories, from all the way back in 1989. Let's see if it still holds up!
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[@pierre-louispicot4598]

I love that Mira came into the hobby at a very nice moment: 30k is being revamped, The Old World is coming back, almost all the Horus Heresy books are out, there is a timeline being set up in 40k, Xenos are getting some love in Black LIbrary books and Warhammer + ... What a good time to jump into the hobby, with Ian as a guide ! 👍

[@collectorofancients5165]

Thank you for the shout out. That was very kind of you. Very cool to see someone talking about Ignorant Armies!

[@SachikaRomanova]

Kim Newman's work as Jack Yeovil epitomises the very best of old Warhammer for me. The world he paints in books like Drachenfels and Genevieve Undead was so brilliant, closer to Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay than any blurb written for the wargame, and for me it hasn't been superceded since.

[@julianwarren7770]

I always kind of felt the prevalence and associated risks of Warpstone in early Warhammer were a reflection of people’s concerns over radioactive materials in the late 80’s

[@withsobersenses9199]

100% the 80s concerns about nuclear war and power are really clear. And great, Warhammers reproduction of 80s UK cultural, and counter cultural, influences is what make it appealing to me today.

[@Tsotha]

@@withsobersenses9199 notice that the Chernobyl disaster happened in '86, 3 years before this book hit the shelves

[@hooliganblack832]

Ignorant Armies was very much Realm of Chaos: The Novel. That last story mirrors the format of the warband campaigns that were in the two RoC books. Its very D&D because its leaning heavily into WFRP, which was very much D&D if you never get xp or loot. They even publish rpg stats for the characters in White Dwarf. Its been a long time since i read them but Id recommend Beasts in Velvet (which features von Mecklenburg again and Clint Eastwood - seriously) and Drachenfels. Both of which are really enjoyable who/what dunnits.

[@Bluecho4]

Yeah, the Realm of Chaos books had a TON of narrative customization options. Letting you create your warband, its individual members, their otherworldly patrons (which could be a lesser emanation of the Ruinous Powers, or even an unaligned Chaos entity), and the mutations the characters received along their path to glory. Or Spawn-dom, as the case may be.

[@doobiousd5020]

​@@Bluecho4just fantastic books to have on your shelf whether you use the rules or not.

[@user-jq1mg2mz7o]

I really love Mira's analysis of these stories! a lot of passion and interest and a keen eye (that draws links that longer time fans might not even realise). the fan energy she mentions at the end is very real and clear in old warhammer fiction- like inferno or codex snippets. little surprise she picks up on it because she does write for a fanzine too! edit: mira is somewhat right on the last two stories: the town in Ignorant Armies sounds like a meta-observation of weekly warhammer at the club- the battlefields are scoured clean, there are random minis with bits and bobs of broken pieces glued back, and what if the toy soldiers had to live in that perpetual battlefield. the last one sounds a lot like an ongoing warband campaign (a bit like modern 40k Crusade rules or AoS Path to Glory) of building up a warband and renown until gaining enough favour to be turned into a daemon prince- which itself was kind of the key gameplay loop of the Realm of Chaos rulebooks that came out around the time as this anthology.

[@Rotheric]

Mira is right on the money re: the Chaos warbands stories feeling like games. They indeed were based on one. The Realm of Chaos & Slaves to Darkness books included rules for creating your own weird Chaos Warbands, following around a Champion on their quest to become a demon prince. There was a campaign system for pitting your warbands against each other in rhe Chaos wastes. It's very much a goofier protoversion of WarCry using WHFB 3rd Ed rules and with more D1000 tables.

[@KamenOtaku28]

I absolutely adore Gotrek & Felix, and would love to hear you two give your thoughts. The first novel, Trollslayer, is basically a compilation of Bill King’s short stories, including Geheimnisnacht. Skavenslayer is next, and it’s more of a set of 4-5 connected stories that make a bigger novel. Daemonslayer is the third novel, and the first to be a complete story all the way though. I’d say those 3 are the must reads, and form a nice trilogy, even though the franchise continues on for another 11 or so books.

[@user-jq1mg2mz7o]

the progression of the novels in terms of structure is very Gaunts Ghosts-y now that I think about it, LOL, with the first and second entries' respective provenance swapped around.

[@Tulkash01]

I love G&F as well but unfortunately I think G&F stay good only with William King as their writer then their stories progressively deteriorate untile the current sham (where there's no more Felix..)

[@YOGI-kb9tg]

​@@Tulkash01the new books are not bad but they are nowhere near as good as the classic gotric and Felix books.

[@lunarman9363]

You absolutely need to read the Jack Yeovil novel Drachenfels. It's genuinely really good.

[@NisGaarde]

100% agree! It's awesome

[@MrElarchbishop]

Was that a whole novel? I only remember reading it in the Geneve omnibus, but would enjoy them going talking about it and Beasts in Velvet.

[@lunarman9363]

Drachenfels and Beasts in Velvet (also really good) were the two full novels he wrote alongside the short stories. @@MrElarchbishop

[@transvestosaurus878]

_Ah, love, let us be true_ _To one another! for the world, which seems_ _To lie before us like a land of dreams,_ _So various, so beautiful, so new,_ _Hath really neither joy, nor love, nor light,_ _Nor certitude, nor peace, nor help for pain;_ _And we are here as on a darkling plain_ _Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,_ _Where ignorant armies clash by night._ - Dover Beach by Matthew Arnold

[@matt_machell]

The late 80s vibe of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is really evident in these early stories. In WFRP everybody is an out of work nobody who has decided to be an adventurer, so you start as a rat catcher and try and be a D&D adventurer in a world that doesn't really want to cooperate with that. There's also a really strong influence from the chaos warband rules in Realms of Chaos, where you make an aspiring chaos champion and play through narrative campaigns in the chaos wastes, picking up random numbers of beastmen and chaos dwarf followers for no obvious reason... It's land of the random D100 table. If you are interested in Warhammer Fantasy investigations, Beasts in Velvet by Jack Yeovil is very much in that vibe, focusing on the Altdorf city watch.

[@Tulkash01]

It's not that WHFRPG characters want to be adventuresrs. They are perfectly normal people (well... sorta...) with jobs like rat-catcher or demagogue who find themselves entangled in pretty horrible chaos stuff (to be clear... in Geheimnisnacht Felix is a Demagogue while Gotrek is obviously a Troll-slayer, both of which are "professions" from WHFRPG 1st ed)

[@MegaBofur]

As a german I can confirm. Well done on the pronounciation of Geheimnisnacht👍

[@khiraas5656]

hallo wie gehts

[@TurbosTantrums]

As someone who speaks it, if not a native, GW's use of lots of pseudo-German in Old World set stuff often made me either wince or giggle. I remember there was a Blood Bowl novel where the protagonist was called "Dunkel Hoffnung", usually just called "Dunk". I couldn't take it remotely seriously.

[@WoodStoveification]

Can I ask - is Ingo Pech's (the Alpha Legion's first captain) name weird to German speakers?

[@MegaBofur]

I guess I'd call his name unfortunate, yeah😏 @@WoodStoveification

[@MegaBofur]

I think my my favourite one on that account is Boris Todbringer. I mean it's not wrong but just awkwardly worded, right? Maybe something like "der blutige Boris" or "Boris der Schlächter".@@TurbosTantrums

[@Doramian]

Ian this is just Incredible ! Do you know this is the very first book in english I've brought in my life ? During my first summertime spent in england. Thank you so much for suddently having sent me back in my childhood memories ❤

[@scottywan82]

I would watch the shit out of a Midsomer Murders in the Warhammer setting. Like, every day and twice on Sunday.

[@williammoore9794]

You might be interested to know White Dwarf published WFRP stats for many of the characters in these early fiction books. So you could construct your own adventures around them. If you want to try some entertaining weirdness, get hold of some of the Dark Future novels. Comeback Tour is very entertaining - it's Elvis Presley meets Mad Max!

[@Kincoran]

This video made me go and buy myself a copy of this bonkers book! I can't wait to read it!

[@Bluecho4]

All the stories about Chaos aligned folks getting into random fights with each other makes a bit of sense in the way Chaos was developed over the years. Not only are they Chaos, and thus prone to fighting for its own sake, but Chaos followers tend to also be pursuing dark apotheosis. The goal put forward to those who embrace Chaos is to prove themselves to the Dark Gods, enough that they can eventually ascend to the Daemonhood (this is where Daemon Princes tend to come from). Along the way, they obtain "Gifts" from the Ruinous Powers, which often take the form of horrible mutations, some that might even be useful. Get too many "Gifts", and you become a Chaos Spawn. Meaning every Chaos Champion is both competing against other forces for glory, but in a race to Ascend before they become an insane flesh-mass. Warhammer has systematized this dynamic at various points during its history, both in Fantasy/AoS and 40K. There were the twin books "Slaves to Darkness" and "The Lost & The Damned", where the Chaos gods were first fleshed out. Those books had rules for narrative campaigns where players would carry their warbands through trials to achieve Daemonhood before becoming Spawn. Indeed, there were many tables in said books for generating one's warband members, their patrons, the mutations they acquire, etc. 7th ed 40K (and I think early Age of Sigmar) had its Path to Glory system, which was more restrained in what you were allowed to do (owing to GW's more recent focus on locking your options to models actually available). But still allowed one to amass a warband, one unit at a time, through a series of narrative battles. And the characters therein could acquire bonuses. (There was also a really robust set of tables for generating the name of your OC Chaos Champion). Narrative campaigns of this nature were thereafter more directly linked to the Codices/Battletomes of Chaos armies. So the trend is hardly dead.

[@IKMojito]

Spot on pronunciation of Geheimnisnacht, great video as always

[@iatebambismom]

Back in those days necromancy and demonology were both spell types an evil wizard could choose from, so there was often a lot of crossover between undead and demons. They were less rigidly separate, especially in wfrp.

[@andrewraw9286]

i bought this book when it 1st came out, i think there was about 4 warhammer books in existence at the time. The last story was based on the chaos warbands game mode which the rules are in one of the original chaos books either Slaves to Darkness or the Lost and the Damned. You should review Drachenfels too, another Kim Newman story, great book.

[@digitalwastrel]

I've had that weird slaan in a tank story stuck in the back of my mind ever since i read it as a kid. I loved the absolute weirdness of early warhammer

[@iatebambismom]

"Gotrek and Felix, they're fine, they're good" - Ian, before getting added to the book of grudges, presumably.

[@larsgottlieb]

This was my first warhammer book in the early 90s. I absolutely Absorbed every single syllable, and adored every single one of them back then ..

[@roderickhamilton9891]

The influences that make it psychedelic are Jack Vance and Michael Moorcock by the way - which were both inspirations for warhammer. In fact Jack Vance is the prime influence on young Dan Abnett!

[@adapax77]

Yes Mira! We need you on the Old World hype train! 😁

[@miramanga]

I'm here!

[@SimonProctor]

I think the important thing is it's not a Warhammer Fantasy Battles book but a Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying book. If you bear that in mind it makes more sense.

[@SimonProctor]

I think the wandering through the chaos wastes building a warband story at the end is basically someone working through Realms of Chaos, pretty sure the first book was out by this point.

[@laurencepenfold]

If you liked the Kim Newman / Jack Yeovil one, you have to read Drachenfels!!!

[@seanmcwatt9818]

You really need to do one of the Ian Watson books.

[@larryisonyoutube5802]

You should take Mira through the old world map and all the different factions.

[@JazzGuitarScrapbook]

Wasn’t the Star Boat written by Stephen Baxter of the Xeelee Sequence fame … can’t really imagine him being off his head on shrooms but you never know….

[@joeyoung431]

In 1989 Chaos was only just becoming the central concept it later became in the GW mythos; Slaves to Darkness had codified Khorne and Slaanesh but Tzeentch and Nurgle were still on the drawing board for The Lost and the Damned. As originally posited in the first 2-3 eds of WFB, Chaos was a stand-in for the Melniboneans created by novelist Michael Moorcock, a nation of decadent wizards who have a cynically reciprocal relationship with a race of god-like entitles known as the Lords of Chaos. The shift to the now-classic GW Chaos pantheon was an effort (spearheaded, or so I've read, by Rick Priestly) to forestall possible copyright lawsuits - vid the Age of Sgmar shift three decades later. Capable of bashing out novels in a matter of days, Moorcock was one of various putative 'Tolkien for people too cool for Tolkien' fantasy authors of the time (and would remain so until Terry Pratchett pretty much cornered that market in the '90s). His Meliboneans do quite a few drugs; their ruler Elric starts off dependent on a poorly-documented intake of powders and potions before replacing them with worse. Moorcock's fan base included a number of rock bands, such as Hawkwind and Motorhead, whose own fans were reputed to enjoy illicit substances, and I've heard a first-hand account from a professional associate suggesting that Moorcock did his share of 'experimenting' as well. He's still alive, still writing, and (unlike Pratchett) rather less interesting than his work. Point is, this book came out at a very particular time in GW history, when a central feature of their mythos was still heavily influenced by a writer whose work (and, reputedly, work ethic) owes much to the notion of illicit, corrupting substances with reputedly colourful psychological effects. Without suggesting the authors were doing anything they shouldn't, this probably accounts for both the general trippy atmosphere of the stories and the frequency with which warpstone shows up. It's really interesting to see it being discussed on Ian and Mira's show as it reveals some of the various, often finely-variegated strata of influence and originality that went into creating the GW mythos.

[@Tsotha]

Moorcock also wrote lyrics for Blue Öyster Cult, namely the songs "Black Blade" and "Veteran of the Psychic Wars".

[@101Mant]

I always found the Warhammer world pretty distinct but then I played lots of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay that went into lots more detail than WHFB and had a dark tone later editons of WHFB battle moved away from. Never understood why 40K got more grim and dark but WHFB got cleaner and brighter. The Bretonian nobility went fro decandant and corrupt with their country on the verge of revolution to chivalrous Arthurian inspired knights. The renaissance setting as opposed to usual medieval one with the fanasay holy roman empire, the threat of Chaos in the hidden cults and the realm of chaos at the poles, the little jokes GW liked to have the names and characters it felt like its own thing.

[@roderickhamilton9891]

As a modern wfrp gm, Bretonnia is corrupt and evil because it's a theocratic oligarchy powered by serfdom. The Arthurian stuff isn't an excuse imo, it's just the propaganda they put out while keeping most of their people as slaves.

[@Chris_from_yealand]

I read this book when I was 11 or 12 and have completely forgotten all about it until you discussed the final story. I do remember reading all the 'Jack Yeovil' books I could as I liked vampires at that time and they seemed to be the best of the Warhammer Fantasy novels at the time. He also wrote a very psychedelic English village horror book under his own name called 'Jago' which is definitely worth checking out if you like this kind of horror - a mix of Wicker Man, Devil Rides out, Straw Dogs, every Doctor Who story set in village - in fact many British TV horror shows. It's not to everyone's taste and was a probably a bit too adult for me when I read it, but those are sometimes some of the best books to read when growing up. I should really re-read it to decide if it was any good.

[@Chris_from_yealand]

There's actually a good article written by Kim Newman on his website (johnnyalucard and then look in the fiction articles for 'an introduction to genevieve'). He explains the origin of the books, with authors first being commissioned to write short stories, which I presume ended up in Ignorant Armies. It seems like there wasn't much lore, and knowledge of the pre-existing lore at the time. But they signed up some good writers and the editor was David Pringle who's a big figure in British SF.

[@elainegallagher6015]

I think the tone came more from Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay than the wargame.

[@user-jq1mg2mz7o]

yea a lot of the vibes and art and lore that came to define WHFB started in the WFRP games (a cycle further fed by inferno magazine and the like)

[@Tulkash01]

@@user-jq1mg2mz7o WHFB 1 was both a RPG and a battle game

[@101Mant]

Fantasy Battle got much more cleaned up and brighter over time, the version most people know from Total War is not nearly as dark as the setting was in early editions. Third edition fanatsay battle was released the same time as the roleplay game and shared the setting. For example the Bretonain nobility were not noble knights but corrupt and decadent and the oppressed peasants were on the verge of revolution. The Emporer wasn't a great leader or warrior but a weak figurehead. The roleplay game was one of my favourites, chaos cultists lurked in the shadows, the game had things like infected wounds and insanity points. Starting careers included things like being beggar or a bawd (kind of a pimp) and when you ran out of wounds you started rolling on a table ro see where severed limbs ended up. There was also a dark sens of humour running through a lot if it.

[@ImrahilToChaos]

@@101Mant This is demonstrably false in several places. The Emperor(Karl Franz) at the end of where the timeline fell in fantasy was someone who was good at his job, but overall the Empire had been ruled mostly by total assholes that either ruled terribly or spent their lives in civil wars with one another. Additionally - Bretonnia darker before 6e? Are you actually kidding? A ton of people complained that the coming of 40K and 6e seriously grimdarkified the setting and Bretonnia was the litmus test for this. Gone were the more cartoonish Arthurian Knights played straight and in came the horrifying class inequality that made even real life historical versions of such things feel tame by comparison, with peasantry not even being citizens and thought of as literal livestock. None of this was present in the 5e Armies book for Bretonnia. There are a lot more examples, especially when it comes to the dwarfs and elves(how can anyone seriously claim that wood elves were less dark before 6e, did you even read the army books before then? Even the designers said they wanted to make them darker at the time because they’d become too nice and frolicky), and I feel like you must be getting your sources from a different place than me, I have to imagine they’re ones that don’t exist, because I have never once heard that the post 6e status quo was somehow ‘less dark’ than what came before. It’s always been the opposite.

[@Gallowglacht]

@@ImrahilToChaos Apologies Jam - while you are correct that 4th and 5th edition Bretonnians are brighter than 6th Mant specifically mentioned 3rd edition and WHFRP. And in 3rd edition/WHFRP, Bretonnia is grimdarker than even 6th edition. There is the same divide between entitled nobility and destitute oppressed peasants, but there is no Louen Leoncoeur, Grail Knights or Maidens to act as a light in the darkness. The kings are fat, lazy and corrupt, surrounded by the foppish sycophants and closet Slaanesh worshipers that make up the high nobility. WHFB Rulebook pgs 200-201 "Since the accession of the current King's grandfather Charles I L'enorm, the Bretonnian Kingdom has degenerated considerably. The once proud cities and prosperous ports have fallen into ruin and a national apathy has set in that has given rise to widespread corruption, inefficeiency and decay. The aristocracy looks to it's own pleasures while the unruly mob starves amidst the worst squalor in the Old World. The current King Charles III Tete d'Or, is the least caring of all. His great palace of Oisillon is a glittering monument to decadence, where be-wigged nobles prance and chatter, where banquets and parties continue all through the night, and where the King hears only the council of sycophants and favourites. Aristocrats and King alike seem myopically ignorant of the true state of the realm, whilst those few genuinely caring nobles look to the defence of their own estates, shunning the madness that has gripped the court" The previous paragraph notes that despite beginning as a backwater compared to the Empire, it quickly advanced to rival it's power and Bretonnian cities where the modern and fashionable ones before the reign of Charles L'enorm. The army lists for the Empire and Bretonnia feature the same types and numbers of gunpowder weapons (up to 20 arquebus and 3 3-man cannon for each army). In 3rd edition, Bretonnia is not the romantic Arthurian, backwards but noble kingdom it is in 4th/5th edition. It is a rotting core with a shiny facade where 3 generations of corruption and decadence are quickly unravelling 15 centuries of progress.

[@Tulkash01]

This is one of the seminal texts to WH lore. I just wish I knew where I placed it!!!

[@laurencepenfold]

The gothic horror tone of this anthology is very much from WFRP father than WFB. That's Wahammer Fantasy RolePlay, pronounced Wuff-rup, as seen in The Enemy Within campaign setting.

[@Gigasius]

Yeah, the tone is much closer to the old Warhammer tabletop rpg. Which is something Mira would possibly enjoy😄

[@larryisonyoutube5802]

Mordheim puts alot of emphasis on collecting warpstone as a high value product for gangs. Meth of the old world

[@stefankienbock6213]

Hey Ian and Maria, if you want a Warhammer Crime/Horror series I have good news for you. There actually exists something similar. The series from Kim Newman on Audible, Warhammer Horror. Book 1: Drachenfels, Book 2: Genevieve Undead, Book 3: Beasts in Velvet, Book 4: Silver Nails. They are all in the nitty gritty of the Warhamer Fantasy World. Beasts in Velvet is actually a crime thriller set in Altdorf about a dirty street copper and a Medium that are trying to solve a series of murders while a chaos cult is trying to instigate a riot in the city. These books are my treasueres, in particular Book 3, but all 4 are great and I think you would absolutely love them. Would be great if you could review them some time in your book club! You are both awesome!

[@Capt.DanInJapan]

This is a favorite of mine. A dear friend of mine found a copy in English when he was living in France and gave it to me as a gift. Reading the stories gave me a much better understanding of what the older lore was and of how the newer lore came to be.

[@richardgreathead5735]

i think Mira would like the first gotrek and felix it has that episodic feel of ghostmaker :)

[@BartBeswick]

How to reconstruct Ignorant Armies - Get Lost and the Damned, roll a character and retainers, the write up your d1000 encounters.

[@ITCamefromthePage]

Gothgul Hollow is GREAT I am very excited for that discussion! Great video as always.

[@majorgrumpybum3161]

Some of my favourite short stories were, Laughter of Dark Gods and Konrad

[@PhilipStokoe-l5p]

The Kirsty and Phil of the Warhammer world, entertaining as always

[@miramanga]

😂

[@filteredjc4653]

I loved Gotrek the slayer back in the day. The orange mohawk and huge axe were metal af

[@earnestwanderer2471]

As a 66 year old WH Fantasy player, all I can say is ... “Hey you darn kids! Get your gol durn AoS models off my lawn!”

[@Pepsi_Addicted]

my first wh book ever. probably around 2003. the last story was so weird, I think there was a dwarf living with a sword stuck in his belly and then some guy rips it out to stab him

[@triangulan]

Mira saying the last story sounds like a game does feel like it rings a little true in my mind.Sure, there wasn't a specific game, but if it is "champion wanders around getting in scrapes with other chaotic foes, and then they join their band" does sound a little bit like the narrative behind a warband campaign as described in the Realms of Chaos books, which I think the first one would have been released about this time?

[@asphyxianone]

Oh brilliant. The notification popping up brightened up the day instantly. Love this series!

[@roderickhamilton9891]

The "constant battling in the chaos wastes" is a skirmish campaign in the old realm of chaos books 🙂

[@jimirowe7006]

Thrilled you got to dive into a genre that you vibe with a bit more @miramanga. the interesting thing about some of these early novels, lore was still crystallising and there where a lot of random ideas being thrown out. It was chaos and it was wonderful. You can see a lot of "what ifs" in these early books. What if frog men remained centre stage? What if warp stone remained a kind of general unsettling worry for the people of this world (a bit of a Chernobyl analogy here) What if Slaanesh continued to be one of the more interesting of the chaos gods (oh wait... it kind of did). A kind of sliding doors moment for Warhammer.

[@buggersgrips1977]

If you want to see a Warhammer style crime film then check out “Hour of the Pig”- Colin Firth investigates a murder in a small Medieval town and uncovers all sorts of Intrigue.

[@euansmith3699]

Thanks for that pointer. I'll check it out.

[@MrElarchbishop]

The Geneve omnibus could be a good read. Drachenfels is a cool look at late-early Warhammer and Beasts in Velvet may give the most detailed on the ground understanding of a city in the Empire. Ed: Great episode. Also I really like this style of Chaos as opposed, which while evil feels more like weird and random with often evil results. Now it often seems like Chaos is just trying to do the most evil thing possible at any given moment.

[@iatebambismom]

You really need to get your hands on the old realms of chaos books, wfrp and some old white dwarfs (issues ~ #100). It all fits.

[@pug1184]

On Old School Warhammer and the Detective Novel vibe - you need to Read Beasts In Velvet.

[@andrewpearce6624]

I still have this book!!!! And it’s the original. 28 magazine is bloody awesome!!!!

[@NisGaarde]

"No one was playing the game" ..... I'd have to disagree slightly. Sales were down, yes. The majority of people had collected their armies already. It's a lot harder to pull a "Primaris Space Marines" maneuvre in fantasy to make everyone go and buy new (somehow same) models for the armies they already own. So as a business move, I suppose it made sense. But it wasn't like players had stopped caring about the fantasy world. After 2015 a lot kept playing - or went on to play Total War: Warhammer and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. I'd also add that Warhammer Fantasy (1983) not only came before Age Of Sigmar. It came before Warhammer 40K (1987) as well. Both games are literally named after Ghal Maraz, the _warhammer_ of Sigmar, founder of The Empire. Fantasy is where everything began.

[@Tulkash01]

It's actually parroting the demonstrably false GW excuse for killing the game. Even in the dark days of 8tedition (because 8th had a few good innovations and A LOT of bad ones meant to increase the number of fieldable miniatures and so the cost of armies) WHFB tournaments had more people than AoS has now. I've personally played in 300 ppl WHFB torunaments, while AoS is hard pressed to reach 80 ppl on an average basis. What killed WHFB was GW progressively reducing resources for the game and the amount of new releases, constantly mismanaging the property and treating its player bases as cows to be milked. The game was still played DESPITE all of that, it wasn't selling a lot because GW wasn't producing new stuff for the system, when they actually put out new miniatures... they sold off!

[@NisGaarde]

@@Tulkash01 I agree. It is a false narrative. Also, the fact that Warhammer Fantasy is this melting pot of various other "generic" sources is not to its detriment. It's part of what makes it so beloved. The lore is every bit as rich and awesome as the 40K stuff. Well, except for the way they ended it.

[@Tulkash01]

@@NisGaarde Yeah. I always thought WHF was more like "Tolkien meets the Punk movement" than generic fantasy. Also, the warhammer world wasn't meant as a part of 40K, althiugh a certain amount of crossover stuff happened in the early years.

[@RobAnybody79]

Just to add to the discussion: I returned to WHFB in 2013/2014. And I was able to buy the majority of my Orcs and Goblins dirt cheap on eBay, as well as just "interesting" kits (Undead, Dark Elves, High Elves, Skaven). I didn't have a lot of money then, but prices were low. Which would support the idea that lots of people were turning their backs on WHFB and getting rid of their stuff. I played casually, but I have a hard time remembering if I bought anything from a store at the time. I was proper miffed when they exploded the Old World. But what was even more annoying was the effing gaslighting from AoS fanboys... Anyway, turned to 40k a few years later, discovered the HH, haven't looked back. And I don't think I'll either find the time nor the money for TOW, sadly.

[@namedmangreg7625]

Could not afford to get into the hobby growing up but always loved the setting of Warhammer Fantasy. Always on the lookout for news on the older books getting reprinted under Warhammer Chronicles. Have every book and short story available as ebooks on the black libary site. Bought all the content for Wfrp 2nd edition from DriveThru rpg. Collecting the 4th edition right now from cubicle7. Bought the Total War Warhammer games and all their accompanying dlc. Still to this day have not gotten over the death of Warhammer fantasy setting. Will never understand why GW did not just say Age of Sigmar was one possibility of the Endtimes. Thankfully Warhammer fantasy still exists in some form through WFRP and Videogames.

[@MHR1001]

Loving these reviews, can't wait to see if Mira and yourself decide to tackle the Ian Watson 40k books 😄

[@GelatinousStube]

The Middenland Murders…

[@euansmith3699]

Make it so! 👍

[@fernandozavaletabustos205]

We are going full Retro Warhammer and I like it!

[@roderickhamilton9891]

Mira - wine of dreams is a great weird old warhammer fantasy book that has a really original take on chaos. Add it to your list!

[@Tulkash01]

In early Warhammer Bretonnia was more akin to Renaissance France if seen through the butt of an english joke about frog-munchers. Most Bretonnians were degenerates of some kind and the peasantry was even more abject than that of the Empire (this last "feature" remained unchanged actually)

[@sylviaze]

I'm impressed. You said Geheimnisse really like a German. I coudn't have done it better 😍

[@khiraas5656]

Hello new to your channels and warhammer reading, loving it all :D

[@satinthrone]

Fantastic episode!! The ancient WHFB fluff existed in such a weird place lol

[@Anarcho_slimer]

Gotrek and Felix are classic Warhammer lit. Can absolutely recommend any of the Bill King authored ones. Wouldn't recommend any that aren't king though.

[@DuncanKEdinburgh]

I still have the first (less garish) edition of this, which I bought when it first came out, along with a few other WH books of the same era, and the absolutely mental Jack Yeovil Dark Future books which sadly never got finished. It was a crazy time, and yeah, we were all on mushrooms... There was nothing else to do in those days.

[@biseinerheult78]

I don’t think it’s fair to say that there was nothing to do but mushrooms in those days. Heroin was pretty popular as well!

[@withsobersenses9199]

I got really into WFRP 4ed in the last 12months as well as running it about once every three weeks, I have also read 2 Grotrek and Felix compendiums...so what is that? 6 novels. I didn't however finish Ulysses in time for Blooms Day - yet I regret nothing.

[@WillardFoxton]

Obviously I know you both but I LOVED seeing Mira's brain explode when Ian told her about the Slann:)

[@miramanga]

Hi Will! :)

[@silcharus1]

Love a good reference to Heroes of Might and Magic!

[@davydatwood3158]

The CBC recently re-aired a radio interview with the inimitable Paul Simon, and in that interview Mr. Simon talks about listeners coming back to him with totally different interpretations of the songs than what Mr. Simon had in mind when he wrote them. And he says that this is *good* and that, in his opinion, the art of the song isn't complete until someone hears and interprets the song. (Or words to that effect, I'm going from memory here.) Anyway, that's what popped into my head when Mira was taking Ian to task over not seeing the class struggle, failure of Reaganomics/Thatcheromics elements of the one story. Given that it was written in the 80s when Punk culture was still quite strong, I could see all that critique being intended. I could also see it as an author just banging off a story for a paycheque. Either way, the point is that we all get to interpret art however we want and any meaning the reader finds is just as valid as any meaning the author intended. Oh, and I was wondering if the stories were originally written for a magazine? If GW went through their back issues to pull a collection of similar stories for a book anthology, that might explain the "sameness" of the stories - an editor (and an audience) always has biases so there will be similarities in any stories selected for a magazine, but the effect gets diminished when you read them one at a time two or three months apart. I know that I often struggle with collections of Golden Age of Sci-Fi stories from "the greats" like Asimov or Heinlein or Silverberg because the stories were never intended to be read back-to-back and so I easily get to that "I just read this" moment.

[@SamusSelf-Destruct]

I loved this book because it really feels like they were intentionally aping off of the various things that inspired the setting. A Gardener In Parravon especially feels like it could have been written by Lovecraft at his best. It feels a lot like Pikman's Model or The Dreams In The Witch House. Also, The Star Boat feels like an original Howard Conan or Kull story, which is really cool.

[@430CurlyJo]

Wicker Man, Time Bandits, and Heroes of Might and Magic Great references all round and exactly what I'm here for!

[@KSweeney36]

I can't find the KZbin channel Collecter of Ancients, to find the video of the book. You make this book sound like something I would love to read or listen to, but is expensive and is not on iBooks. So could you please share a link to the channel? Many thanks

[@miramanga]

youtube.com/@collectorofancients5165?si=w3xsQn2OHiFUJ4F8

[@ToTheNines87368]

Have to correct Ian, since only The Empire is set in that German age. Brettonia is basically Arthurian England/France. It’s one giant mish mash of “inspirations”.

[@GirlPainting]

I have read that book back in the days....interresting though is, that in germany the book is named after the last short story, laughter of dark gods (Gelächter dunkler götter) instead of Ignorant armys ;-)

[@Mugdorna]

Time to dig this book out of my boxes of books.

[@euansmith3699]

I like how Mira sniffs the book like a sommelier; very relatable. Warhammer Fantasy Slaanesh; less Tolkien, and so much Moorcock (ooh, matron). "A Gardener In Parravon" sounds like it has heavy shades of Clarke Ashton Smith's wonderful Averoigne stores; tales in which weird and macabre stuff happens without any clear moral purpose.

[@Tulkash01]

It's strange because I always thought "A Gardener In Parravon" was about a Tzeenetch and not a Slaanesh cult.

[@miramanga]

I am a book smeller

[@amandaidange4981]

From what I understamd, pre ww2, it was the norm that fantasy was set in a germanic world as supposed to a British one.

[@elainegallagher6015]

Not really; Grimm fairy tales and Hans Christian Andersen were Germanic and Scandinavian, yes, but the Arabian Nights were just as popular and fantasy pre-WWII was as much Peter Pan and George MacDonald as it was the Grimms. WFRP did seem to lean heavily on Grimm, tho

[@julianwarren7770]

I love Gotrek and Felix! Gradually working my way through the books. Can’t remember what my favourite is called, but I love when they go to explore Karla Eight Peaks, and Dragon Slayer.

[@Smaakakor]

This must be The mostest funnet bookclub

[@FurchtbaresGaming]

AWEsome! Cant wait for the next one! I really need to get my hands on this book as i am a huge fan of Felix and Gotrek. The "happenings of the Geheimnisnacht" are mentoned in their regular books a couple of times and i alwways wanted to know what happened exactly ^^. And Mira, if you ever fancy going out for a Geheimnisnacht in germany, feel free to reach out ;)!

[@simonchirps]

I am one of those nerds who is still mad at GW for killing Warhammer Fantasy. Its not that AoS is bad its that they blew up all the world and lore in such an abrupt and unfulfilling way. They destroyed a piece of my childhood for their sales numbers. I get it but also I will never forgive them.

[@terraneaux]

They made the sales numbers low themselves by making the game hard to get into and cumbersome.

[@anthonyreal1594]

@Arbitor Ian - Ignorant Armies is a rewrite of "The Searchers", a 1954 film with John Wayne. It's actually pretty good!

[@pendantblade6361]

Can't wait to see Gotrek and Felix!

[@Alittlefruitgoesalongway]

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on Gothgul Hollow. I read it about a year ago and found it pretty disappointing. If you enjoy it, I'll be curious to hear about it. Perhaps I missed something.

[@samihawkins2283]

I know I'm late on this but if you do eventually do a Gotrek & Felix book I'd love for it to be The Serpent Queen. Everyone is gonna recommend Skavenslayer as the first real full length story in the series but Serpent Queen was the last one written before the big End Times two part finale and I think it's the best at presenting a single self-contained story. Exotic locations, mummies fighting vampires, and the type of fun characters that made Warhammer Fantasy great.

[@sceneryj]

‘Oh, that’s a whole other thing’ should be the payoff line on anything WH/40k lore related.

[@Mysaladdays-go6cc]

'Sometimes, they're wrong...' yup.

[@j1gsaw]

Gotrek and Felix books are good fun although not read them all yet.

[@paullist3821]

Mira sniffing the book lol

[@mccahill34]

Michael Moorcock is the massive missing influence on all these stories. He invented psychedelic chaos, chaos gods and the 8 pointed star which were all borrowed by Warhammer. Checkout the Elric stories if you want see what im talking about.

[@everssonnascimento4601]

Really enjoeyed this

[@sean4929]

PLEASE Read the Gotrek and Felix novels with Mira to introduce her to fantasy. She would love them.

[@rp7155]

It’s not pronounced “geheimnisnacht“; it’s pronounced “Tyranids”.

[@nickwhitney5015]

My favourite story in this book was The Other, because it played into the disaffected young man meets manic pixe dream girl trope, but she wasn't just sneaking to the lady wizard's house in the night to perform magic was she? ;) The writer, Nicola Griffith, would go on to become an award winning LGBT+ author, and this story really blindsided me by building on the in-built assumption of boy meets girl. Hell, I'd agrue the dude isn't even the main character, it's just told from his POV.

[@merocaine]

Please do pawns of chaos, for me the best w40k novel.

[@MrLTChocolate1]

I think you might have oversimplified why people didn't like age of sigmar. There was not even any rules when they launched the game and they kinda crapped all over the established lore

[@ArbitorIan]

There were absolutely rules when they launched the game. It was a playable game with a ruleset. And they wrote new lore that was a direct progression, in-universe, of all the existing lore.

[@m41282]

Except it did completely break people's armies and crap on a bunch of lore. Imagine you had an Imperial Guard Army and then get told oh no, they don't exist, now you play knockoff fantasy space marines. AoS can eat a dick.

[@TurbosTantrums]

On the subject of German, Ian seems to have settled on "ar-BITE-er" as his pronunciation of "Arbitor", which is how you'd pronounce the German word "Arbeiter", which means "worker". "Worker Ian". Comrade.