Ike + Aether = Pwnage Incarnate? - FE9 Tier List Review

[@Sector4AQA]

Character analysis timestamps: 0:40 Explanation of the video 5:01 Ike 12:41 Titania 18:26 Oscar 24:17 Kieran 30:33 Boyd 37:12 Rhys and Mist 49:09 Soren 53:01 Illyana (w/Soren) 1:02:33 Gatrie 1:06:16 Shinon

[@fool8304]

"Axes in the early game are bit of a double-edged sword"- some could say that's what all axes are technically.

[@dryzalizer]

Strange how many people are commenting on the tier list as shown at the start like it's final, apparently they didn't watch the video and realize units are being moved around/updated smh.

[@ElutPesto]

I've played FE9 more than any other Fire Emblem, and I've done the Vantage/Adept/Ike support build on Soren several times. It does work, but for some reason I just can't bring myself to invest that much into Soren nowadays because the road to get there still feels so slow and boring and I'd rather have more fun using things like the Vantage scroll on units like Kieran or Jill or something. Love Soren as a character but man, it just FEELS like he's not worth it gameplay-wise.

[@fangiscool1]

I agree, and he seems to fall off late-game because his move is so bad. Path of radiance is so easy that I generally just max move mounted units and destroy everything on enemy phase. You baby Soren and he only really pays you back mid-game. That being said, I still generally use him because a few mounted units dominate the game and I end up with many thousands of bexp just sitting around, so I don't purposely baby bad units to spread xp. Otherwise I get bored

[@ThatGuyThai]

Soren and Ilyana are good due to their utility. When you're able to forge a thunder tome it is your best forged option until hand axe and javelins become available. This allows Soren/Ilyana to one round/shot and really feel like they are useful. It does require favoritism to some degree, but I'll take a tome over standard iron forges.

[@leaffinite2001]

i always iron man fe9, and soren dies so frequently. Hes just annoying to train, and requires risky play to lvl him up. In my experience ofc

[@ThatGuyThai]

Mek you're an animal, love these uploads I'm not getting anything done but I enjoy it

[@0715yt]

Really appreciate you kicking off the review with the best fe9 song :)

[@DaniDoyle]

for me the biggest Mark against Oscar is the existence of early game bonus experience.. his early availability is kind of offset by the fact that generally the most efficient way to finish any map is going to be send Titania straight for the objective.. he can help out a little bit but he doesn't get many opportunities for self-improvement if Titania is killing bosses on the 3rd or 4th turn in order to maximize your bonus experience and at least in my experience that leaves him someone under level by the time you get the base unlocked.. you could fix that by giving him the bonus experience but I personally would rather give it to someone who is a higher level than him anyway like Karen or someone who's going to have more long-term utility like Marcia

[@Mekkkah]

Karen is already the highest level because she's always talking to the manager

[@DaniDoyle]

@@Mekkkah voice to text has betrayed me again

[@tempest3528]

Glad your talking about FE9 Mekkah. I think this game's in-depth discourse is a bit lacking as most simplify it as "mount spam/BEXP/vantage + crit-glitch go brrrrr". This is the FE I've played the most (as well as my favorite game ever) so I'll add my own thoughts here. Ike: High B tier, probably Quite the divisive lord in terms of opinion about performance. I personally think he's Pretty Good(tm), not quite pwnage incarnate, but certainly good. His earlygame is a bit tricky to evaluate to me, as Titania curbstomps everything, Shinon and Gatrie are very useful as well, and everyone else is just kind of... okay. If anything, the earlygame is just his training montage. He's not great here, but I wouldn't call him a liability. In the midgame his speed is good enough that he can usually double and thus one round with a forged iron sword (or steel sword after chapter 13). He really comes into his own on promotion: not only is it timely, but the combination of Aether and supports makes his survivability nearly unparalleled. He becomes very hard to hit, and if he is hit Aether will likely bring him back to full (another thing worth noting - FE9 is the only game where Aether's proc rate is actually skl% instead of (skl/2)% making this quite reliable with his high skl growth). The value of supports is also tricky to evaluate, but I feel it's worth consideration here as his best support bonuses come from two characters who are both good and worth using in their own right: Oscar and Soren. And of course, once he gets ragnell he can basically solo the last 2 chapters in the game. In my experience, his performance is a gradual ascent from mediocrity to greatness: pretty fitting, considering his journey narratively. Yes, he doesn't have a mount: in my experience 6/7 Move is usually good enough, and with seize being a somewhat common objective, he usually has to beeline straight into the fray anyhow. Yes, he has no 1-2 range but in hard mode I don't think this is as big a hinderance as some argue. Mages and archers will pester him, but lance and axe users don't always have 1-2 range until the very late game. Ike definitely has the common shortcomings of a footlocked, swordlocked unit, but he gets enough tools to work with that he can still produce in spite of those shortcomings I was NOT expecting my thoughts on Ike to take that long, hopefully the rest won't be as wordy. Titania: S tier, second or arguably third best character in the game There's not much for me to write that hasn't already been said: she can singlehandedly curbstomp the earlygame and contribute for the rest of it. She can also complete side objectives, weaken enemies for allies to finish off, and rescue drop. Not to mention 9 Move and super canto. One thing I'll add is that due primarily to the map design of some mid/lategame maps I'd actually make the arguement that Jill is better than her. This isn't all that important, they're both part of the Elite Four (Marcia/Jill/Titania/Reyson) that can drastically change how the game is played, but as an example: on Moulder(the Boulder)'s hill a flier can one round the boss on turn 1 enemy phase, while all Titania can do is, well, eat rock. The flyer squad get to ignore so many terrain annoyances that Titania simply cannot. Oscar/Kieran: Both are A tier Mount privilege strikes again. Both these units are very, very good. The knight ward can be used to guarantee they double(anyone that isn't a swordmaster anyway), and forged steel weapons can guarantee they one round(usually). I might give Oscar the edge, if only because of the +50 avoid dodgetanking shenanigans that Ike/Tanith supports can provide. On the other hand though, Oscar is certainly more susceptible to rng screwage, making Kieran more reliable. Either way both are worth putting on your team, I would think. Boyd: ehhh??? (C tier) Boyd's ability... confuses me. On one hand, he seems like he should be able to dominate. On the other, he's just kinda bad. Perhaps more than any other unit, his first few levels really affects his early game performance, as he can gain either 0 AS, 1 AS, or 2 AS. Outside of this, as well as his shaky hit rates due to axes + tempest, he's just a bit lacking to me. But to articulate why, I should mention that to me, there are 3 criteria that a unit wants to achieve relating to their combat ability. 1. Does this unit have access to 1-2 range? 2. Can this unit one round most enemies reliably? 3. Does this unit have survivability (either through bulk or dodgetanking)? (S/A tier units usually have all 3 of these, and B tier units usually have 2 of them) In Boyd's early game, the answers are no, no, and yes(?). As he overcomes his speed penalty from his weapons and enters the midgame, these answers are yes, yes, and kinda. The midgame of FE9 sorta does the FE7 thing where enemies just stay kinda bad for a while, but unlike FE7 they do begin to catch back up in the lategame. In my (subjective) experience, Boyd's ability to double gets less consistent in the lategame, and his pitiful defense growth comes back to bite him. His answers to these questions in the lategame are yes, no, and no. Sadly, Boyd is only at his best in the game's easiest part: the midgame. I - in my heart - want Boyd to be good, I really do. But he just isn't to me. Sorry for another way too long description Rhys/Mist: Hi-C tier (not sponsored) Imo, all healers/thieves should be C tier at minimum, since they have a unique and useful utility that not many units have. They both have their value as staff bots, and they do it well. Rhys has an easier time getting to promotion due a higher level + better availability, while mist has the better promotion due to getting a mount, access to sol, and super canto. In terms of combat though, their both quite limited even on promotion. Rhys speed isn't that great so one rounding is impractical. Perhaps there's a niche with baiting and nosferatu-tanking on enemy phase but that's just my own conjecture. Mist getting swords isn't great either, buttttttttt if you don't have any use for the arms scrolls you can double arms scroll her so she can use the sonic sword, which is neat. I'd give the edge to mist, but it's really player preference if you're looking for a staff bot and nothing else. Soren/Ilyana: Mid to High B Honestly you could lump Tormod in here as well imo, all of those in the mage trio do the same job at about the same ability. Though I suppose there's enough unique quirks to Tormod that he's worth discussing individually. In any case, both of these units are pretty good. Res in this game is better than GBAFE, but not by that much. They should reach doubling thresholds somewhat quickly, and after some magic levels should be able to 1 round fairly reliably. Having 1 less move than average infantry bites, but the staff utility on promotion more than makes up for it. Similar to Oscar and Kieran, I do think Soren is a bit better due to having Ike as a support partner. While yes, Ilyana is one of the few characters with multiple earth affinity supports, they're tied to Zihark (who is bad) and Lucia (who shows up very late, and is also bad). Though Ilyana does get some compensation I guess, as she probably has the easiest time getting enough weapon ranks for Rexbolt. Who you want to use is again preference, would you like to use: The socially distant femboy with a tragic origin? The cute anime girl with an insatiable appetite? Or be an enlightened bisexual who uses both? The choice is yours Gatrie: C, perfectly average You guys hit the nail on the head pretty well. Gatrie is quite useful earlygame for being a meat shield and setting up kills for other units, but after he comes back it's hard to justify using him. Having someone who doesn't take damage sounds good on paper, but when many of FE9's top and high tier units can take damage or avoid it entirely, his specialization loses a lot of it's value. What you have left is a unit that can't one round due to poor speed. Shinon: Hi-C (again, not sponsored) maybe even a low B? FE9 Shinon is a unit I find VERY fascinating. I honestly think you could do a WAIFU on him. To me he's functions as both a Jagen AND an Est. Now his earlygame is fairly well understood: he can kill enemies when you need him to, have him (sometimes...) set up kills when you need him to, and even bait enemies to attack him with provoke. Like Gatrie, he's pretty good early. When he comes back things change a bit. In terms of stats, he's quite a bit behind schedule: 9str, 13spd, 9def just isn't gonna cut it. But he makes up for this detriment with two main boons: weapon ranks, and growths. He has A rank bows, which give him access to any bow you have at that point. It also means he has a fairly easy time getting to S rank for the Double Bow in ch28 if you have him on your team. Also, for a FE9 unit his growths are off the charts. It's honestly hard for me to believe. I don't think any of this makes him great by any means: he's still limited to being a bow user, but I am quite interested in using him the next time I play FE9 Alright, that's enough for one text-dump. If anyone read this far, thanks. I appreciate it.

[@brubie7584]

Every time I use Oscar I'm dissapointed in him to the point that it is tough justifying his deployment spot on many late game maps. His combat is frankly really poor, especially if he doesn't consistently have the knight ward (I forget if you get one in all versions of the game). As a combat unit he is almost strictly worse than Boyd who has the problem you mentioned (the have the same speed give or take half a point, and oscar has around 5 less mt in the midgame and closer to 7-8 come endgame. In maniac mode it's even worse, he cant double paladins and he hardly even hurts them tbh. I'd still give oscar a high b since he is a solid early unit and is serviceable combat unit later plus mounted utility is very useful on some maps, at the very best low A, he is clearly a worse unit than kieran who is faster, stronger and has access to a better weapon type. Oscar is basically the forde/lowen of FE9 where yes he's good cause he's a mounted unit that can hold his own in combat, but he always has not quite enough offensives to kill things as well as any other high tier units. Mekkah and typhoon already went over rhys and mists extra utility in LTC and efficiency runs with rescue etc. Gatrie and Shinon: I agree with what they said, while they are useful early game, there's actually very few chapters they are useful in. Chapter 3 it is nice although if going for efficiency titania is probably blazing a path to the boss and ike doesn't need much help clearing the way. 4 they are very useful. 5, gatrie is very useful but shinon can be hard to use well with the fog (and you don't want him getting hit making more enemies clog the path(). Gatrie is quite useful and shinon is pretty useful in 7 when they come back, but that leaves a total of 4 chapters where they vary between very useful and kinda useful which is not a lot. Gatrie also is pretty good on 9 when he returns. I'm interested in Shinon's use after recruitment, sounds hard to make him useful since his stats are so horrendous at that point but it would be interesting to see otherwise. TLDR Gatrie and shinon are good for like 3-4 chapters and then are relagated to bench duty which makes it hard to justify putting in the same tier as boyd or anyone else you listed in C like healers. Side note on Tormod, he is not really comparable to the other mages since he comes in at lvl 7 on chapter 16 and needs lots of bonus xp to be usable (and can't even use bolting/blizzard without grinding tome rank even after promotion). Plus tormod isn't going to get C/B staves for a few chapters if you try to staff bot him like soren/ilyana easily can much sooner.

[@tempest3528]

@@brubie7584 Thanks for the response man, appreciate it. Something I should note in how I evaluate characters is what I consider an "efficient" playthrough to be. To me, it's simply playing quickly enough that you can get the maximum turn count BEXP. I think this is a good benchmark as it directly ties in to the game's mechanics. I'm also making the assumption that the game is played in a "typical" manner where you have a team of about 10-14 units, as this is how I imagine most players play the game. While investing BEXP and other resources into a select few units is generally the most efficient, I think this more general scope is more applicable to the average player. In relation to Oscar, it seems your contentions with him are in any combat unit's two most important areas: strength and speed. While these might seem underwhelming, he has adequate tools to overcome them, in my opinion. While a singular Knight Ward may on paper appear to be a competitive resource, it actually isn't (well, at least the speed growth part of it). The growth bonuses from the Knight Ward or the various bands still apply to levels gained in the base with BEXP. Because of this, you can give the Ward to whoever needs the bulk during chapters, but then spread it around in the base so that many characters can benefit from it. In terms of strength, the go-to weapon for most physical combat units is a +5 might forged weapon of whatever the highest rarity is at the time (iron earlygame, steel midgame, and silver lategame). A forged weapon will be enough such that Oscar can 1 round all but the bulkiest of enemies. (Also for clarity: the Knight Ward is always in Astrid's inventory regardless of game version.) To me, a C tier unit is one who is always just okay, or a unit that has a legitimate use case, though very niche. I think Gatrie and shinon fall into that latter category as their ability to bait and weaken enemies is very useful for training up Ike and Soren, and to a lesser extent Oscar and Boyd. To me, the earlygame is largely about choosing who among Ike, Oscar, Boyd, and Soren to train for your long-term team and Shinon, Gatrie, and of course Titania certainly help with that. I kept my thoughts a bit vague on him, but I likened Tormod to the other mages in the sense that when trained, they all have similar combat ability. While yes, the harder time getting staff rank seems a bit annoying, to me it isn't really his job if that makes sense. It's usually Mist/Rhys' responsibility when it comes to staff utility, while the sages throw out an additional heal/mend when necessary. However, if high rank staves is that much of a concern using both arms scrolls for instant physic/rescue on promo isn't too hard to justify imo. Since forged iron/steel is the go-to for so long, arms scrolls usually aren't that competitive of a resource. Of course, there's the fact that he's quite underleveled when he shows up, but +2 move is REALLY nice. While siege tomes are certainly nice, their applications are pretty niche in my experience. Outside of something like ch.22 boss cheese strats, they aren't that amazing. All 3 of the mage trio tend to spam elthunder (which Tormod gets for free on promotion) so he should eventually get bolting regardless.

[@brubie7584]

@@tempest3528 I think some of my Oscar's opinions were warped due to me losing astrid on join chapter on my last ironman so he had no knight ward :(. That said Oscar is probably the weakest combat unit that will reliably be fielded (when it comes to fighting, mounted utility makes him either low A or high B anyway). He is does lower strength than any other unit I would consider fielding besides titania late game (but she roflstomps so much of the game they can't compare). He has lower str than Ike, Kieran, Boyd, Marcia, Jill and Makalov for example (heck he does the same damage to axe units as Mia). I still think he is great, I just disagreed with you putting him above Kieran, especially a tier above. The fact the Kieran is much stronger and a bit faster I think more than makes up for his slightly weak join chapter, and missing the first 8 chapters isn't a big deal in POR. I could be wrong about Shinon's viability in the late game which would change my rating, but being a very helpful unit for 3-4 chapters (and even in 1-2 of those they aren't really needed) doesn't really warrant a C tier which is in my opinion an average or slightly below average unit, maybe low C tier at best (at the very least I don't think they belong in the same tier as healers or Boyd). Gatrie is similar, maybe he could warrant C tier due to being a reasonable unit to use for a few more chapters (bonus points if it's ironman). I wasn't meaning to be harsh on Tormod, more that due to his late join, lower weapon ranks and late join he belongs at least a half tier behind Soren and Ilyana. The 2 move is nice, it is true but the fact that he will get access in particular to the A and S tier tomes much later, if ever (and the fact that he will be at minimum a few hundred bonus xp behind the other mages if reasonably levelled and missing some of the middle game maps I think puts him down relatively).

[@tempest3528]

@@brubie7584 I think you're either underestimating Oscar's combat, or have gotten very unlucky with his strength levels. If we compare Kieran at base to Oscar at the same level (12) they're pretty similar. For the "Key Stats" (HP, Str or Mag, Spd, and Def) Kieran gets an extra point of strength and speed while Oscar gets an extra point of HP and defense. Again, due to forged weapons Strength is usually a non-issue. Even if it was, since FE9 does an FE7 and have steel axes be an E rank weapon, he will have access to a 16mt steel axe (forged) as soon as he promotes. And of course, the Knight Ward makes it such that any Cav/Soldier/Knight won't have to worry about speed. I also may have been understating his dodgetanking a bit. Even just a B support with Ike (which he'll get fairly fast) will give him +20 avoid which is enough in most cases to make him VERY dodgy. It's Oscar's ability - through his supports - that he can become unkillable in the late game that gives him the edge for me. At the end of the day though, both Oscar and Kieran are A tier units. It's like comparing a Lamborghini and a Ferrari: sure they have differences, but they're both MUCH higher end than your average car. I will admit that my post-rejoin opinion of Shinon is more or less entirely theorycrafting. Thinking on it more, maybe there's a niche with Provoke+Wrath+Killer Bow shenanigans? He would in theory have a minimum of 90 crit when wrath is active. There are also 3 killer bows you get throughout the game, 1 of which you'll already have when he joins so you will have access to this strat for a while. I'll make an addendum that Boyd is at or near top of C tier while Shinon/Gatrie are middle or on the lower end of C, with Shinon having the asterisk that there may or may not be something that merits raising him a bit. I still hold that they're at least C tier because I think they're ability to help train up some of the game's strongest/most important units (Ike, Oscar, Soren) is valuable enough to merit that rating. I think I just value that utility a lot more, which results in that disagreement. Perhaps I am overvaluing Tormod, though I will say that I think that's in large part due to the fact the +2 move gives him a "theoretical ceiling" in terms of options that no other mage can have. It is true he joins significantly behind schedule in terms of level+stats, but weapon ranks aren't that big of an issue to me. Like I stated prior, I think Elthunder is the go-to tome in 90% of situations for most of the game, which he'll get whenever he promotes. Catching him up through combat quickly isn't too tricky imo, largely due to the sheer quantity of enemies in chapter 17, and the fact that a good chunk of your team is pretty strong by that point. I think training any of the mage trio will require deliberate effort and attention regardless, it's just that it's more extreme in Tormod's case. I still think he's B, though admittedly near the bottom, while Soren/Ilyana are at or near top of B.

[@brubie7584]

@@tempest3528 I often play on maniac so my experience will differ noticably on combat performance cause the enemies do have higher stats and there's more promotef enemies (especially paladins) and in the last few levels many enemies have high defence to the point even +5 steel axes aren't enough. Even on hard mode, Oscar is toeing the line for having enough str where missing 1-2 str points means he won't hit certain breakpoints whereas Kieran is less reliant on good levels to perform well. I think Oscar is still good, I just don't understand why you put Kieran a tier below him. That said Oscar struggles in the last couple chapters especially on maniac where many paladins, wyverns, generals, dragons and even some tigers all have defense well into the 20s and even 30s. For the later few I'd usually rather have 2 more points of str rather than some def or hp. I think Kieran at worst is the same tier as Oscar. I'm fine with gatrie and shinon in lower c tier, its reasonable. Just wanted to point out that they really are only useful for like 2 chapters (they don't do much in 3 and 7 they are off by themselves and really just thinning some enemy numbers), 1 of which you randomly don't have boud and Oscar for. Granted they are super useful for those 2 chapters so low c is reasonable. I agree with low b for tormod, I just think he is less good than the other mages cause you have to dump bonus xp onto him for him to be playable. A lvl 7 that can't even use elthunder does single digit damage to most enemies and dies to a stuff breeze in chapter 16. Also I think he gets knocked slightly for not being able to use the a/s lightning tomes for killing disgustingly strong dragons

[@nunchuk28]

dayum, Boyd had a pretty steep fall

[@mysmallnoman]

I would put him in B but eh top C tier isn't really bad

[@nunchuk28]

he's still above like half the cast, so it ain't bad, but considering he was A before, flat out skipping B is rough. My experiences with Boyd are generally a lot more positive than I'd expect from a fighter, but I don't play optimally and he's gotten rng blessed on speed a fair amount of times, and I usually screw him over myself halfway through the game by using other units to build supports that I'm missing in RD log. I usually have less problems using him than Oscar.

[@leaffinite2001]

Ive found boyd to have really high highs, but hes super reliant on good lvl ups early. If his first like 3 lvl ups arent good hell suck for the whole game

[@TheDiego908]

I love these videos because of the extra perspective added. Maybe you could even do unironic debate videos with someone you disagree with

[@nathanjohnson2382]

It’s hard to tier list this game because legit every character is good. Rolf takes like 2 to 3 levels of feeding if your bold. I’ve had Tormod, Illynia, and Rolf be insane combat units. But still excited to see how this tier list turns out. Initially seeing Soren that high is rough I haven’t had a Soren that stands out in any way really.

[@ThatGuyThai]

I recommend giving it another shot. I find the mages in this game to be a little more useful on the chapters where you cannot forge anything of merit. Sometimes your best option is a thunder tome and if you supe it up, suddenly Soren and Ilyana are threatening. Soren gets the edge over Ilyana for me because he starts with adept. You can combo this with vantage and provoke to very high success. You say Soren isn't built to take hits like that but Ike support (who will be around the same area due to movement) and the early angelic robe can do wonders. All the BEXP should be going to flyers so just giving Soren his custom tomes is enough to make him capable. This leads to faster staff access and clears. If you utilize a thief you can steal siege tomes to make up range.

[@d3-ll754]

Well I suppose I'll throw my two cents onto this as we go along, this seems like an interesting discussion. I'll say where I'd personally tier each Unit as well as my reasons for why. (I seem to have largely paraphrased the video so do forgive me about that, but my thoughts happen to line up with Typhoon's sans our rankings, it seems.) Ike: Top of C-Tier This basically boils down to: I agree with basically everything you guys said but I still don't think that's quite good enough to be in B-Tier. Ike contributes to the same degree as everyone else sans Titania in the earlygame, so it's difficult for me to judge how useful he is in this portion. I'll just arbitrarily give him a low-B for this part of the game simply 'cuz that sounds good to me. Afterwards, there are definite gaps where Ike has trouble killing things due to a lack of 1-2 range or the ability to hit on Res, mostly through the midgame (I'd honestly rank Ike's midgame as a low C-Tier or maybe even high D-Tier). It's when he Promotes and can use Aether where I think he becomes a B-Tier Unit, having no real weaknesses but also no real strengths. And then when he gets Ragnell and he's given Wrath/Resolve he becomes a high A-Tier Unit, granted that's only for like two chapters. So I'll just arbitrarily average all that together and say top of C-Tier--honestly Ike is a weird Lord. Titania: Bottom of S-Tier (below Marcia, I'd move Jill and Reyson out of S-Tier but I'll get there) Titania crushes the early/midgame harder than basically anyone else aside from Marcia who A) is mostly dominant in the midgame since she's not around for the earlygame, and B) requires investment to reach Titania's level of dominance. It's from Ch 19ish onward where mounted cavalry combat starts becoming not quite as useful and flight starts to show its true strength, and for how good Titania's stats and movement are, Marcia tends to outperform her in this portion of the game. But even then, I'd be hard-pressed to say she's a waste of a deployment slot, and she still has her contributions in the game's first half. I almost wanna call her FE7 Marcus 2.0. Oscar: Bottom of A-Tier I'm literally just penalizing Oscar for his overall worse start than Titania. Otherwise, everything else I said about Titania also applies to Oscar for me. Solid earlygame, really good midgame, good lategame. I will say that I think while Axes are his best option as a secondary Weapon, Lances will forever be his best Weapon type 'cuz he still gets 1-2 range and he's had all the time in the world to build his Lance Rank up to using Silver Lances lategame. Oscar is, however, very susceptible to getting stat-screwed, like you two pointed out. Kieran: Top of B-Tier So this is interesting. I think Kieran in this game is slightly overrated, since he's for all intents and purposes a mini-Titania. Granted, that's by no means a bad thing but I don't generally find him doing anything in the mid/lategame you can't already do with her. They both use Axes, they can both Canto, they both have good stats. But Kieran not only joins later but also needs investment to Promote (I find he can generally get off fine with just a Master Seal but still). Still pretty good overall, but I do find him overall slightly worse than Oscar, if he's the point of comparison (I'm also assuming Oscar isn't getting stat-screwed which might be a little unrealistic but eh). Boyd: Low B-TIer Speaking of overrated Units. Boyd's earlygame is really weird for me since overall I find him contributing to the same degree as everyone else but Jesus Christ I hate Tempest with a passion, because even with WTA his Accuracy can be awful. I don't think I can say he's worse to any significant degree than Ike or Oscar here, but it can make training him as a primary combatant a hell of a journey (emphasis on "hell"). Add on to the fact that Boyd's potential just adds up to a physically-attacking 1-2 range combatant, just without superior mobility, and I don't see a lot of value in Boyd longterm. That said, 1-2 range is still really good, and good combat is still really nice to have, so I can't say he's awful. Overall I liken him to an Ike with a slightly worse start overall but compensates with 1-2 range and a potentially earlier Promotion. Rhys: High B-Tier, below Kieran / Mist: Mid/low B-Tier, above Boyd The Staffbots, and they sure do some Staffin'. I find that there's always a place in the mid/lategame for at least one good Staffbot who can heal people when need be and to also use Rescue, and overall I find Rhys to be the better of the two. Mist getting a mount I don't usually find a massive boon when Physic is a thing lategame, and especially considering how much farther behind she'll be compared to Rhys when she joins (plus the Black Knight fight doesn't have to be won, you can just run, as anti-climatic as it is). Units like Soren and Ilyana can do a Staffer's job just fine while also doing other stuff, but these two can fit the bill just fine if you want them to. Soren / Ilyana: Low A-Tier, above Oscar (yes, really) These two are tied in my mind. The Echoes Mae/Boey of Tellius. Soren has a god-awful earlygame, and training him is the mother-of-all tests of patience, but I think it pays off because having a so-called Super Sage has the benefit of essentially combining a good Calill and a good Rhys/Mist into one Unit--and for reference, Ilyana has the trade-off of joining later but not requiring to be trained quite as much with a god-awful start, unlike Soren. I wanna very quickly do some number-comparison for average stats: Base Lvl Calill: 32 HP, 08 Str, 19 Mag, 18 Skl, 18 Spd, 16 Lck, 08 Def, 17 Res Lvl 20/1 Soren: 30-31 HP, 03 Str, 18 Mag, 20 Skl, 17-18 Spd, 10-11 Lck, 07 Def, 19 Res Lvl 20/1 Ilyana: 30 HP, 06-07 Str, 16 Mag, 18 Skl, 15 Spd, 12 Lck, 07 Def, 19 Res So you can see that a trained Soren/Ilyana has comparable stats to Calill, and because this is FE9 where Master Seals are so rare, being Lvl 20/1 is assumed for most Units. You have a Calill-equivalent who not only uses Staves but also can be gotten as early as Chapter 9 (though Ch 11ish would probably be more realistic). The Movement isn't as big an issue as you'd think because you can Shove and Rescue-Drop them, and even FE9's bulkiest enemies are usually only physically bulky, they still usually have fuck-all for Res. The speedrun strat is to give Calill Vantage and just have her waste enemies while Marcia's off doing her thing, and at a pace not as concerned with time or turns, Soren and Ilyana can do this with added perks. They require their fair share of investment, putting it lightly, but IMO it's more than worth it. Now compared to Marcia's and Jill's flight, Titania's dominance in such a large part of the game, and Reyson's sheer utility, I think they lose out, because those Units are always useful no matter the context. But we stan the early FE9 Mages in this house. (Also I put them both above Oscar because I think the lategame usefulness outweighs their earlygame issues and Oscar's earlygame isn't good enough to outweigh his average lategame.) Gatrie: Top of D-Tier Dude kicks ass in the earlygame but he just has the usual Armored Knight issue of low Speed + low Movement rendering him without a purpose. The 1-2 Range is cool but it's little more than chip damage when he doesn't have the Speed to double, and there's no way in hell he's keeping up with your Paladins and dear god your Fliers. Considering the terrain of the lategame maps is why flight is so useful there, imagine what that spells for a 05 Movement Unit with worse terrain penalties than most other infantry Units. ...Yeah, that's about it for me. Shinon: Mid/low C-Tier I wanna give Shinon some credit: his earlygame is, again, quite good, and while his stats when he rejoins are awful, I think he has some longterm potential from there on. His Growth Rates are silly, and he has the proper Bow Rank to use the Brave Bow--hell, he joins with the damn thing. Combined with his overall good Speed and FE9's bulky enemies also not being super fast, and Shinon's ability to quad-attack things is pretty decently high. Whether he'll actually kill or not depends on the enemy as well as whether or not he Crits, which isn't ideal, but I think Shinon makes decent lategame filler if nothing else.

[@halcyon_echo42]

Boyd is pretty solid promoted with such high strength & health, has good ability to kill Wyverns with forged axes or forged bows, and is a fun unit for an occult scroll if you give him the statue frags so he can prog Colossus often. His supports are pretty decent as well if you're using them.

[@medic-ez9fo]

yeah in my last playthrough i got a speed blessed Boyd and the guy does massive damage once he promoted to Warrior, i made A support with mist and the guy just kill anything. Even though in the video they said that boyd can be really good if you had good levels at the early game

[@guidomista3570]

I like how Rolf has his own tier

[@murderedx8018]

E

[@elpopman2055]

Not really Fair. I made Use of Rolf Few Times in path of Radiance.

[@cashcloakburmy]

Yooo I started PoR a few days ago! Excited to see this

[@theadv1189]

Awesome video you've inspired me to make my own videos

[@xTxCxMx]

To address the very last bit of discussion about enemy aggro, while I don't know exactly how things work regarding skills, but I do have some idea about aggro in general. Pretty much every unit will consider self preservation and if an enemy can counter, and they'll prioritize that very heavily. Due to a severe case of terminal gaiden brain i refuse to admit bows are mid in a lot of games, so I've spammed them enough in this game to notice some peculiarities with the AI. If presented with a choice between a bow unit who can't counter, and a unit they have a basically guaranteed kill on, they will go for the bow unit pretty much every single time regardless of if they have any chance of actually killing it. I was actually abusing this on the great bridge while watching this video. Oscar goes up to petrine and attacks, then start of enemy phase petrine counters leaving him at a sliver of hp. He's in range of the wyvern reinforcements who will kill him if they swarm him. However, they instead all go for the green bow paladin who is in range despite having no chance to kill him even if all their attacks land. The AI is still unpredictable, but how much it loves attacking units that can't counter makes me think the theory that provoke/shade tricking the enemy into thinking ppl can/can't counter has some validity to it.

[@JusticeJudge]

I found Shinon useable once he rejoins if he's using the Brave Bow but if he's not he's garbage. If you wanted to kill Naesala in chapter 19 for whatever reason he can help if he has Deadeye.

[@LifeAdmiral]

I love that I still have my hard copy of FE9. I'm doing a run right now with units I don't usually play with (I'm basically reliving my old debate with Snowy_One by playing both Lethe and Stefan). Just from looking at the tier list, I'd like to point out a few things. 1) Makalov is really bad. Sure, Paladin is Paladin but even with an immediate promotion, you're still looking at a guy with 11 Str, 11 AS, 33 HP and 12 Def, not to mention an E rank in either Lance or Axe (whatever floats your boat). These are the same stats as an untransformed Lethe and she arrived effectively 6 chapters ago (since the first real combat Makalov sees in Chapter 16). His growths are pretty good (read as: better than Jill's in every vital stat) but an early promotion (which he really needs) cuts out ⅓ of his available growth time, making the whole concept moot. 2) Remember your old "30 most broken units in FE" list from 2011 or so? Stefan is basically Rutgar without the Chapter 4 appearance. Survivability is very good, doubles everything and can go and deal with any really dumb threats coming your way.

[@GIR177]

If playing the JP version where you can forge 255 crit Thunder tomes through a glitch, Soren/Ilyana becomes the best foot unit in the game once given Vantage, since they'll just destroy entire squads of enemies by themselves. Most people play the international versions though, where their offense is generally going to be mediocre for a good while.

[@Mekkkah]

Yeah this list and discussion is 100% about English Hard. We mention JP Maniac and the forge glitch a couple times but it's more as trivia.

[@dddmemaybe]

No mention that Mist can Canto-Mend and Heal with enemies nearby; in open terrain, ballistas, _fliers_ and against _1-2 range enemies._ Rhys needs an ally or 2 to pull him out if he isn't burning Physic charges. She can usually reach much further with 1-range staffs in general too. Mist will save a lot of Physic uses so that you always have a lot of charges in a pinch (bad terrain maps), even spamming *safe Mends* to heal bigger hp units like Mordekai, Largo and Boyd to max hp. The Physic staff can _only_ be bought on the very final chapter on Hard mode, whereas any Mend is available every chapter starting from 12 onwards, and for only 1000g. Not to mention that Mordekai can easily Smite a promoted Mist even while un-transformed for 2 extra tiles of move. Imo, 8-move and smite-viability is great. She even can support with Mordekai; both to get an uncontested +3 _Defense_ and Might with their dual water supports! Rhys is a safety liability to use 1-range staffs, whereas Mist quickly becomes self-sufficient. That's why I put Rhys a whole tier below Mist impo. Getting value out of Rescue lategame is great too but, getting to heal your teammates, safely, every turn for the entire game after chapter 10, without help, is a lot of impact to your overall aggression-capability. The only self-healing your combatants can do in this game is the 3 elixir uses (unavailable otherwise than just the one in chapter 3, and then the final chapter) or vulnerary for 10hp. You get 30 physic uses between chapter 15 and 26, and then have infinite for the end of the game. Otherwise, you have to use the basic Heal or Mend to get decent hp per-turn.

[@dddmemaybe]

Imagine not having canto for heal/mend on chapter 17, you will burn 20 of your physic uses on that map alone, or rescue-drop Rhys backwards roughly every turn.

[@kirbymastah]

Typhoon comfy voice hype

[@chingading957]

Great series

[@dddmemaybe]

Gatrie has utility scaling, it's called 1v1ing half the map with no bexp nor feeding. His no stat-booster max level average stats with the knight ward are 58hp, 29 str(cap), 25 skill, 24 speed(cap) and 32 defense(cap+k.ward) with 14 res(k.ward). It's like Boyd with +14 defense and way more weapon ranks. He gets combat exp very easy by taking zero damage, often to enemies you'd just give to Titania or ignore for bexp's sake. Only problem is even though he has a high skill growth, he has low skill base, so you probably want a hit boost on the forged lance you'd toss him in the earlier game. If you put the Saviour skill on a flier, his lategame is definitely very helpful and powerful at contesting bs enemies, with the freebee combat exp gains the whole game he will be high level, especially compared to a bexp-eater units like Soren. Soren can't even train staff ranks for the "utility" until promoted, so to get a lot fast, you need to use every point of bexp possible(huge investment) and give on-map feeding, or waste a lot of stats by promoting at level 10-12. If you gave the treatment to Oscar, he'd be early level 21 natural promoted; stronger than Titania already by chapter 14~, and can rescue-drop for your team. You can even work on Bow rank to nuke stuff from afar like a mage, just with good of everything else. Well; TL;DR: you can rescue-drop Gatrie unlike Paladins, and his stats are nearly the best of each archetype with no stat-boosters by the lategame.

[@mr.s.i6642]

My oscar was able to get B rank axes in maniac mode run. I think it would was borderline impossible for me to beat dragons in maniac mode without soren or ike proccing aether.If u invest soren will perform.

[@thomastrautman5855]

Overall good revisions. I question if Nephenee is that bad (on Hard Mode). She does have weapon rank issues and her base stats are eh, but I have trouble imagining she's a tier worse than Zihark, at least she has 1-2 range.

[@anthonycarver971]

It’s because she requires more resources to get better. Zihark starts with better bases, a killing edge (which isn’t his alone but he has the weapon rank for it), closer to promotion, and adept is a more useable skill than wrath. That being said it’s true Zihark does not have 1-2 range and sword locked is pretty bad but the following chapter after their joining chapter Nephenee gets one rounded by ravens while Zihark is fast enough to not get doubled. They are both bad in my opinion but Zihark is more useable without additional resources

[@mysmallnoman]

Her weapon rank does not matter because javalins are E lol, and it's not like there's something you would do with high ranks in FE9 where you only use 1-2 range weapons 90% of the time

[@noukan42]

@@mysmallnoman nephenee is shit with a normal javelin and a forged javelin for her speciphically is a pretty big opportunity cost. Zihark is a perfectly serviceble filler for a while.

[@anthonycarver971]

@@mysmallnoman I’m not even arguing that weapon rank is the problem. In order for her to do well in her joining chapter she would need at least 5 lvls of bexp on average just to be able to maybe double most enemies on the map. Then she needs a forged javelin with max mt and hit. Even with those resources she is still not killing in 2 hits. Zihark is not either so that doesn’t mean he is better but he is making the same contribution without the use of bexp or forges albeit from 1 range.

[@thomastrautman5855]

@@mysmallnoman Only having forged Iron instead of Steel/forged Steel doesn't let her ORKO some of the bulkier enemies for a while.

[@jeweledmoon5567]

cannot wait until part 2

[@acsu96]

I've known for a long time that occult scrolls are pretty worthless, but I've never considered putting aether on Ike and then taking it off after 27 for wrath resolve endgame strats, which I've always done for reliability, but hearing this discussion about post promo utility with Aether makes me want to try this (also cuz i was using Luna devdan, and sol titania and Astrid in my last playthrough LMAO)

[@cloverraven]

Titania destroys everything from start to finish. It was very suprising when the game came out. Wasn’t used to that.

[@cloverraven]

At the time, Made me just assume all Paladin were OP

[@xAbsolution1]

I love how Ike is next to his little sister in the tier list.

[@ametaslave7314]

I think it's extremely hard to argue Titania as the #1 unit in this game. Chapter 12 onward is extremely flier-centric (and just as Titania-centric as the early-game was imo) regardless of playstyle. If you're going fast you need Marcia, and if you're going slow juicing up either of the fliers lets you think less in a game that's already the easiest in the series. Because the main differences between Jill and Marcia are their weight (i.e. Jill can't be shoved by laguz while Marcia can), there's an argument for more lenient paces that Jill > Titania. If this was a purely turn-count focused list, Marcia would earn her own tier easily imo. With how flier-centric the game has proven to be, I think units that thrive despite that should get more credit than those who don't. For example, Soren and Ilyana are capable of many things that other units are not (Rescue, stronger 1-2 range combat than even a capped Jill, siege tomes), albeit at the cost of BEXP, but does that put them in the same tier as jobbers like Makalov and Astrid, who also need to take a load of BEXP just to be yet another paladin that does next to nothing your fliers aren't doing better? IMO, Soren and Ilyana belong in the bottom of A.

[@mysmallnoman]

Eh B tier is fine

[@Quaelandys]

Makalov and Astrid are probably not going to stay in that tier, I find

[@mysmallnoman]

@@Quaelandys Astrid being in B is fine, she has paragon, can gain tons of xp in her join map because of ravens there and has a horse + axes, however her bases are lame and she's bow locked for 20 lvls which sucks, she's good enough for B but not for A, while being better than the ones in C As for makalov i agree he should be C, can promote at base but his bases are literally BARELY better than oscar/Kieran at lvl 10 and joins much later, he's good but not enough to be above C

[@ametaslave7314]

@@mysmallnoman Soren and Ilyana are easily a full tier above both Makalov and Astrid. They're honestly comparable to Oscar and Kieran, depending on who you ask. Like I said, thriving in flier-centrism should be credited more than being good in like 3 places because you're an additional 9 move unit. The bigger issue is that are they really below Mordecai of all people? Mordecai's sole claim to fame is practically just smiting Marcia. It's a fairly specific niche, but Makalov can pick up Mordecai once he promotes while Astrid can't, which matters for fast clears of 17-2 in IR, so it's hard to put a tier gap between the two.

[@mysmallnoman]

@@ametaslave7314 1) i agree but not exactly, Astrid, ilyana and Soren are all B but makalov is C 2) eh makalov saving some turns in 17-2 doesn't mean shit, this is not LTC based list

[@ketchuplover6160]

im wondering why units like Mia aren't also in E tier? Rolf is bad but to be honest Mia is about as bad as he is and tbh for Lucia you could make an argument for E as well

[@noukan42]

Mia is nowhere as bad as rolf. PoR ia probably the game where it's easier to be viable. Just put a bilion bexp on whoever you like and they became god. Except Rolf because no EP.

[@gameboyn64]

Rolf is in a special class of bad. Mia isn't unusable if given some investment. There are actually a fair number of situations where you can force 1 range interactions on enemy phase and she reliably doubles very early in the game. Strength is also one of the easier weaknesses to mitigate in path of radiance due to forges.

[@mysmallnoman]

She can counter enemies on EP, has more levels, is way easier to use because of her bases, slightly better class She sucks but she's better than Rolf

[@Mekkkah]

Funny you should bring that up...

[@elpopman2055]

@@Mekkkah Regarding Rolf. i was Able To make Use of Him Few Times In Path of Radiance.. if alao you also train boyd and Oscar they Can easily make use of the triangle attack... if anything in my opinion if you want to train Rolf then training Boyd and Oscar would also be advisable because Rolf would have an easier time Getting Kills With the triangle attack to Gain Levels. If anything I regard the 3 brothers as a package. Yes Rolf is hard to train.. but the payoff is likely worth it.. even if you don't use the triangle attack.. Rolf Still have the benefit of bond supports where he can enjoy Critical Bonus. Supports Can also be good Help as Well

[@V27272]

His may be stupid but how do you re edit tier lists? Or is mekkah using a different website than tiermaker

[@Mekkkah]

I use fe-tier-list-maker.github.io/ and I have a special overlay made by Ryn.

[@elpopman2055]

Mekkah when a hypothetical remaster of path for radiance what would you fix about path of Radiance and perhaps Radiant Dawn.. what are reasonable and realistic fixes can the developers do for the remaster of both games?

[@Mekkkah]

Honestly if they released a port right now that speeds up map animations to Radiant Dawn NG+ level, and skip EP entirely (optional) I'd be happy with that alone. This game is pretty good already. Oh, and make upper weapon/accessory auto equip. And maybe no biorhythm.

[@emblemwarrior11]

Something else, I really think that all the S rank weapons should be available. Wishblade and Rexcalibur come to mind. Because they're in the game's code, you just can't get them.

[@gameboyn64]

What they did for ff7 and ff8 switch ports would be nice with the x3 speed button

[@elpopman2055]

@@Mekkkah how would you handle some of the characters availability and usability in Radiant Dawn.. For Example Tomrod Group, Meg, and Fiona... in my opinion in higher difficulties allies that are introduced as enemies should retain the higher level and stats.. For Example Aran starts off as an enemy unit but recruiting him in higher difficulty becomes more rewarding because he Scales to the other enemy units.. as a result you have a realible tank unit that will not lag behind the team and the official guide books says Aran is Known as The Shield of Dawn Brigrade and he was instrumental in the final battle Liberation to Free Daien in part 1 and he constantly saved Members of the Dawn Brigade on countless occasions....

[@elpopman2055]

@@emblemwarrior11 yeah that would be Cool.. Rexura is Pain to get though..Wishblade as Well.. what's the point of getting two powerful weapons in the last level if you can't even damage the final boss with them?

[@comridleyw9679]

I still think Ike would be best at the top of C Tier, even though I don't really mind him being in lower B that much. He's fine for PoR in a vacuum, even though he needs some investment for the lategame to deal with Ashnard and BK properly. Clearing up space for Titania to blaze through the map during the earlygame is an honorable contribution to the campaign. It's just the comparison to other Lords that makes him look really bad. Other lords get some sick promotion or a lategame personal weapon that deletes most enemies or at least can be ditched like Lyn or Eliwood when they contribute poorly. Ike only gets to fall behind and deal single digit damage to the enemies only he can fight unless one of his skill procs.

[@Mekkkah]

I think if Ike joined at the end of the game with just Ragnell and his final stats he'd be like, mid to high C. His contributions throughout the game, minor as they might be, earn him a little extra credit to get to B, I reckon.

[@Mattsothelioma]

Maybe I just got lucky. But I started a run of PoR a little while ago. I think my progress is I just did… oh! Nasir just escaped (Why did they imprison a traitor in the SUPPLY TENT?) But anyway… Ike was never really a liability when I used him… he may have gotten a bit punked in the early game (english hard mode) but so did Boyd and Oscar. Once he got a few levels in him however… Ike has been an engine of mass destruction. Hordes of lance users may whittle him down a bit, but with Aether and evasive terrain (and his… B? Support with Oscar?) and nothing can stop him.

[@dwbryant13]

I ev trained in fe10 really hardcore and got a true blade edward with maxxed stats including defense and resistance. Easiest fucking swamp levels of my life. For those of you who don’t know ev training plus bexp makes fe10 a highly exploitable experience. Other Characters that hit individual stat caps really early like nephanee or other skill/speedsters but mostly high Luck units all are easy to manipulate. It’s even crazier when you consider bexp abuse with laguz units. Ulki and januff become omnipotent gods who can simply dodge crossbows. Lmao now that I think about it fe10 is like a elden ring to dark souls because it can be made really easy.

[@noukan42]

As a complete casual, shouldn't stefan be a bit higher? He is locked to 1 range but so are the laguz in b tier and while they have more movement they have to deal with the gauge. Seems about even to me.

[@gameboyn64]

Stefan joins half way through the game where he is only marginally useful. Promoted ike is better than stefan to put into context. Lethe and mordicai are valued for their short term usefulness in the early game where their stats far eclipse your other units. It allows for them to do many things that you other units may struggle to do

[@noukan42]

@@gameboyn64 i was more refereing to muarim that join the exact moment.

[@gameboyn64]

@@noukan42 Muarim gets to use the demi band which allows him to avoid the guage entirely. Because the demi band rounds up he gets 4 str 2 skl 2 spd 2 def 2 res 2 mov. This means that he not only is extremely mobile, he is ridiculous tanky, hits resonably hard with good accuracy and doesn't cost resources to field (claw is free). His con/wt (not sure exactly the math behind these stats) are really high which means he is a good smite candidate or even for rescuing in some situations. He can even be used as a pack mule because he doesn't need to use weapons of his own. Stefan on the other hand is basically an ike that is better for a few chapters in the mid game but inferior for the rest of the game. His speed is mostly over kill and isn't particularly bulky. His damage can also be lackluster without a crit or astra. Astra is actually a dual edge sword because it eats through your weapon uses quick and doesn't come with perks like healing.

[@Mekkkah]

We'll get to Stefan later! I feel like the most natural comparisons for him are Ike and Boyd, maybe the Sages. Basically foot units with combat that might be worth utilizing.

[@Talking_Ed]

​@@gameboyn64 I think ike can't reach some of his stats even if he levels them up every level lol

[@blankblank6214]

Titania is bad she stops being fun by the Jill dad chapter cuz she stops leveling

[@ziegfeld4131]

Shes the best character in the game end of story its not debatable

[@RushStudios101]

how are we still having this discussion in 2022

[@Mekkkah]

I think blank blank is memeing lol

[@blankblank6214]

@@Mekkkah a good unit is a unit that stays fun to use from recruitment to the last 3-4 chapters of the game and still level

[@Izanna3]

W

[@javoclean960]

Love the nuance of this video, imo Boyd and Ike need to be a tad higher tho, Boyd in B and Ike at the top of B or last of A, one is an early game machine and the other with Boots and the knight ring is as dominant and even more as those above him. Although outside of combos and how good Aether is, I think he is the unit that is the most hurt by not having real 1-2 range, which is to me what always made most a fantastic unit in this game, as sonic sword + a secret book is all she needs to be an absolute machine on offense and just hammerne that a couple of times and we good. Great TL overall and those two horses are absolutely busted in Kieran and Oscar

[@timetaker7816]

Only problem I have is where makalov is, Geoffrey and him should be switched

[@DarkSol13]

Take a shot everytime the word "like" is said more than once in a span of three seconds

[@SirVyre]

Little bit disappointed that neither of y'all brought up Bond crits for Oscar and Boyd, since they're easy to take advantage of in the early game (since on every map up till Chapter 11 they won't be fighting for slots and are like force deployed for 8 or them). Harped on Biorhythm super hard too, when it doesn't actually impact Boyd very much leading up to when you can remove it. He starts on Point 8, and since you're going all efficient, it's really only going to move by Chapter progression, which means for his first and second chapter he gets +10 advantage, and then no Advantage but no disadvantage. The game then forces Boyd to sit out for Chapter 3 &4, but his Biorhythm still advances by 7 per chapter progression (it takes 10 rounds of combat to move it by 1 point otherwise). Moving him back into positive Biorhythm by Chapter 5. He will then stay positive to neutral until Chapter 8, wherein you can remove Tempest. The rub lies in, the more than you use him, the more that this will shift. You know me though, I use Boyd a ton every playthrough, no exception. Tempest is the least of his concerns and wasn't worth bringing up. I also disagree with your assertion that you were looking at him before like "most" people look at him. There is no one on this earth that thinks of him like a Franz, lol. Most people think Boyds sucks, and they aren't shy about saying it. I am glad to see Oscar up in A tier though. I think he should be higher than Kieran, honestly, but that's my opinion.

[@ThatGuyThai]

I'm with you, Boyd has always been a beast. People tend to underrate the actual prowess of a hand axe and those who wield it in nearly every game. FE9 definitely had more awareness regarding axes but they're still OP.

[@justagrump5627]

man really put Mia and Nephenee in D tier alright time to square up

[@torru36]

Not sure how you had Haar above Jill in the first place. Having a decent Jill is a prerequisite for getting Haar, so if you are thinking of recruiting him he is already outclassed.

[@Mekkkah]

I never had Haar above Jill in this game? And you don't need Jill to be trained at all to recruit Haar, you can deploy her at base keep her out of range until Haar reinforces. It's slightly inconvenient at best.

[@UsualHRS]

Mekkah lore reference

[@charleslathrop8309]

Geoffrey is the epitome of how useful being on a horse with great stats does for you, is in for practically 5.5 maps and is still middle of B tier.

[@Makons420]

Tauroneo S+ tier

[@Klaire_Fluffle]

Ilyana good!!!

[@Aeddy35]

I don't think Ike is any good or even decent, there is no reason to invest in him other than the poor "he's a game over condition so he should be strong" argument. Sure he contributes early on, but the same can be said for pretty much everyone. I don't see how giving Ike Aether is better than giving a paladin Sol. On an unrelated note, I still don't understand why Hard is favored over Maniac for things like this, sure it's jp only but how many people actually are playing on original hardware? I have Titania 10th all time on my all-time list, granted you're playing Maniac (though this doesn't include fe1-fe3, fe4 gen 2, and berwick). I don't think she really ends up much worse than Oscar and Kieran, if given an energy drop. Unlike pretty much every other combat unit, she needs zero bonus exp to function, meaning you can give it to someone else.

[@typhooncarter]

I should clarify on the aether comment, the main thing is that there are tons of occult skills scrolls to go around that even if u wanted to give Paladin Sol it shouldn't really be mutually exclusive from say giving Ike Aether given u have 4 occult scrolls to play around with. It's moreso a case of there's no reason not to as ORKO benchmarks can be demanding at times in the latter parts of the game. Wrt Ike himself being not good or decent really is moreso a massive gap between the best units in the game (S and A) and everyone else having some form of issue holding them back from being as good as it is and a case of relativity and really a deployment cost that he doesn't have to deal with and is frankly a jobber for a good amount of the game with a cast that happens to be filled with jobbers or ppl that barely exist that much. It's honestly like a Luigi wins by doing nothing case with PoR Ike which I think partially contributes to the rather divisive opinion on him and I can understand where the ppl think ike is bad camp is coming from. As for Maniac not being favored the other reason I can theorize (besides the fact that it plays like ass that it plays a big part to the Jpn fanbase not liking Tellius all that much compared to the west) most likely also may have to do with there being not as much documentation on maniac compared to Hard Mode.

[@Aeddy35]

@@typhooncarter The fourth occult scroll comes when you get resolve, and I can't see why Ike would be prioritized over Kieran, Titania, and Oscar. I guess you could argue Ike is average compared to the cast, since many units hardly do anything. I think a B rating means good so I'd put him at least in C, but probably D. I don't really see a problem with few units being in B and C.

[@typhooncarter]

@@Aeddy35 it's moreso Sol doesn't really do much for Titania, Oscar and Kieran and are more of a luxury compared to Aether cuz u usually aren't gonna expect them to die given it's usually killing enemies and not so much getting killed by them that's more of an issue I find and it's not like they're dying to get Sol whereas Aether does a fair bit for Ike in terms of how well he can perform which is what I meant by bang for ur buck and why I think giving Ike one of the early occult scrolls isn't a bad idea.

[@Mekkkah]

It's not that Ike is great, it's that everyone he's above is much less available, has less forced time being good, and/or is worse at combat. Keep in mind other units might move too. But like...I'm not gonna put Janaff or Devdan above Ike, lol.

[@Xertaron.]

Aether is by far the best mastery skill in the game - Adept, Sol and Luna combined into one. Sol only makes exposing your paladin on enemy phase slightly less risky, while Aether gives Ike notable boost in combat. If it was universal that would be a different story, but it is exclusive to Ike so it makes sense to give him priority for Occult Scroll. It's not a question of how many people are playing on original hardware, but rather how many are going to play JP version for Maniac mode specifically? It is poorly designed and tedious to play, especially in later chapters when the game throws literall tidal waves of enemies at you. It shouldn't be prioritized by the sole virtue of being hardest difficulty. Titania definetely falls off in the late in the game. While she doesn't need any investment early on, she does if you want to use her full time. It's not a dealbreaker or anything, but i wouldn't handwave giving her stat boosters.

[@mysmallnoman]

I agree with 95% of the list, tho ike and Stefan should swap places and there's no way ike is even B tier, he's C tier with all his weaknesses and really doesn't do much until he promotes half midway into the game Anyway overall, I'm happy with the placements

[@takarahayashi4124]

says nothing but negatives with Soren > still ranks B = make it make sense. He's trash, just be honest and drop him to D.

[@Mekkkah]

Maybe listen to what both of us have to say because in the end that's what determines the ranking!