Illegal serves stir up some Controversy, a pickleball breakdown

[@murgesgc]

I was there for this match, it was super awkward and tense.. There was a lot of things said that didnt get caught on the mic on stream. Weird to think they played dubs together same weekend.

[@lr2696]

This may sound absurd but to avoid any controversial serves is to only allow drop serves.

[@offthefront7537]

I don't think its absurd at all. My only question is , why not.

[@josephparisihomes5637]

Gross

[@Squaredot01]

good point!

[@voiceofreason9238]

A tall person will still have the advantage because they can drop the ball higher than a shorter person.

[@offthefront7537]

@@voiceofreason9238 disagree, so then the drop should be done with the hand at waist level. It’s better than doing an illegal serve over into perpetuity.

[@kjprice1443]

Pro Pickleball has progressed so rapidly, it will need the same number of officials as tennis to ensure the rules are consistently enforced and ruled fairly.

[@devotedtennis]

It is illegal. They really need to start cracking down on that or get rid of the rule and let everyone do it. Ben and Tyson are two of the best servers and they both constantly flirt with the line on legality as they usually make contact around rib cage height and not below the waist.

[@grantharrispb]

We’ll now the rule says the navel

[@bleuShoErn]

I’ve said this for months. When I spin serve, “it’s not in the true identity of Pickleball. The serve is not to gain an advantage but to merely put the ball in play.” (Gag). Just go to drop serve and quit allowing such serves all together.

[@devotedtennis]

@@bleuShoErn not sure about the drop serve, but the idea for the serve was taken from badminton and badminton serves are just to start the point like you said!

[@devotedtennis]

@@grantharrispb that’s a good point. I forgot about that rule change. I don’t like it, but at least there is a reason for the higher serves.

[@929mmr]

@@devotedtennis I've seen some nasty serves off the drop so it's not like there is no variety in what you can do with a drop serve. Just less variety. This kind of reminds me when I pitched in a lob pitch baseball league in college. I would throw slow curve balls to start and then start throwing them faster. Nothing was called so I started throwing a few fastballs. I was a bit offended that it took three of my fastballs before anyone complained but my point is people will push the rules if they can.

[@Mr.DJones]

As I mentioned during the live play. The ball became dead as soon as Jay served it and the ref called it. Doesn't matter what the ball did afterward. And I am on Jay's side of this. What people forget, PPA made up this rule, for some stupid reason. I think Tyson, don't talk to Stanley, talk to your employer, the PPA, blame them.

[@h20bearboy65]

This is why they would be best served to make only the bounce serve legal - then all the paddle height, wrist location, pre spin etc - that all goes away

[@josephparisihomes5637]

Great idea if we want a sport that is terrible to watch.

[@h20bearboy65]

@@josephparisihomes5637 right, because watching a game with a bunch of unreturnable serves is far more entertaining than games with long ralley, dinks and drives volleys, lobs etc.

[@voiceofreason9238]

The drop serve doesn't solve anything. The taller person can still drop the ball from a higher point than a short person, therefore getting a higher bounce.

[@h20bearboy65]

@@voiceofreason9238 apparently you are unfamiliar with a pickleball - drop it from 8 feet high - how high did it bounce? Before you spout off you may want to try educating yourself?

[@voiceofreason9238]

@@h20bearboy65 Thank you for the great advice on educating myself. I am not the greatest Pickleball player but I am able to read and before I hit my first Pickleball, I read the rule book. I followed up with watching trusted people on KZbin who help us to understand the various rules and rule changes. It doesn't make me an authority but I do make an effort to understand and play by the rules. I know what you are saying about about players ignorant of the rules. I see a lot of them where I play as I'm sure you do.

[@wilsoch]

The waist isn't the issue. His paddle head is above his wrist when he makes contact. That's against the rules.

[@sunsioux444]

I love this controversy - adds interest and refines and clarifies the game and rules. and And Tyson’s serve is illegal and professional referees should be able to see that

[@stevecrawford333]

drop serve should be the only thing legal since pickleball wants to remove all of the fun.

[@joewilliekingdom]

didnt know Joe Dirt played pickleball??

[@rickrzendzian2228]

Very funny!!

[@TheArtL0ver]

The line you drew through Tyson was at his hips, not his waist. Waist is defined as below the ribs but above the hips, and is more superior near the naval.

[@aarontyeryar8108]

Tyson’s serve is illegal. Everybody is focused on the height. I’m looking at the angle of the paddle. There’s definitely parts of the paddle that are above his wrist. He’s basically doing a forehand serve.

[@jimzimmerman5288]

And he got to serve again. It should have been a side out.

[@jasonadams8961]

When I first start playing I served just like this and got called out once I played with some better players. Haven’t done it since

[@offthefront7537]

Same here but I could not adapt and soon adopted the drop serve. I have the same results in my matches so no biggy.

[@JYDMAZDA]

Obviously an illegal serve. Needs to be underhanded and upward arm arc. Paddle has to be below wrist at contact. Clearly a sidearm serve. Ridiculous that it has been allowed. They might want to put in some dress code rules too......

[@josephparisihomes5637]

Yes, please make pickleball unbearable watch.

[@jakeanderson4772]

Wait, so if you drop the ball before you serve instead of hitting it out of your hand (drop serve), you can just hit the ball with your paddle above your waist, and your wrist on an even level, like a tennis forehand? Am I understanding that correctly.

[@jakeanderson4772]

If true I would imagine there will be players that might attempt to take advantage of this. Hitting the ball with an even wrist angle, even if the ball isn’t bouncing high, is a huge advantage.

[@networth00]

I can't ever watch Tyson games because his serve is so annoying.

[@LatiNoble]

I love that Tyson addressed this fairly quickly.

[@littlegmod]

My issue with Tyson's serve is foot faulting. Everytime he serves from the right hand side of the court, it looks to me that his left foot is literally in the left hand side of the court during the serve (not after) and that should be a foot fault.

[@geraldpayne6630]

Tyson does an illegal serve almost 90$ of the time by FOOT FAULTing on the center service line ! But because it is Tyson it is never called !

[@thegoldenrooster8376]

I never saw his foot on the center line. He lifts it right before hitting it?

[@geraldpayne6630]

@@thegoldenrooster8376 Then you are not watching !

[@jackandjose]

@TheGoldenRooster he slides his left foot over the center line when serving from the right side.

[@geraldpayne6630]

@@jackandjose That is true but that is a foot fault as his foot is then in the opposite court when he hits the BALL making it illegal . EVERYONE WANTS TO DEFEND HIM BUT THAT IS WRONG !

[@thegoldenrooster8376]

@@geraldpayne6630 time stamp ??? Hopefully it’s cleav

[@Left-Foot-Brake]

100000% McGuffin serves illegally.... at times. Not all the time, but it's so close to being above the waist on virtually every serve. I'm not hating on him, he's a great dude but my point is the whole serve rule needs to be changed... clarified at least. I think a great rule is that you have to let it bounce before you hit it.... You can toss it up, bounce it, drop it... whatever as long as you do THAT action below the shoulder.... let it bounce and then we're all good. This would negate a bit of pre-spinning the ball on serves, too. I gotta feel for the ref... he was put in a bad situation and I think he handled it really well... dealt with it very professionally and was clear in communication, was respectful of the players..... It's not his fault the current rules allow this area.

[@josephparisihomes5637]

You have to regulate the drop. If players were allowed to bounce the ball to near their shoulder, the amount of power they could generate on a serve would be ridiculous. And for the standard drop… it’s quite frankly boring and not good spectating. As for the ref, totally agree. He was dealt a very poor hand with the current rules and handled it well.

[@georgebanker2669]

What I got from this video is you can keep on hitting illegal servers with no penalty. You just get a do over. What a state of affairs.

[@jli9246]

Rule that can not be enforce is not a rule.

[@chongqinghotpot]

It’s crazy, considering they are double partners. It’s interesting that Jay never complained when Tyson served the same way in their double matches. Regardless the legality of Tyson’s serves, Jay handled it like a child. Tyson’s post match interview saved Jay’s face. Is Jay going to continue playing with Tyson or switch back to his old partner?

[@929mmr]

If he was complaining about it to no effect and really thought Tyson's serves were illegal then I thought doing it once to make a point was legit.

[@rebelresource]

Pickleball's serve ruling is so ambiguous it will be a massive cause of killing this game.

[@bryandbaker]

Refs won’t make the call on an illegal serve if the penalty is a fault, eg Gabriel Joseph’s serve violates all three dimensions of the volley serve 90% of the time. They changed the penalty to a re-serve for that reason but it hasn’t changed a thing. I’d prefer it be a fault but can live with the re-serve… if the illegal serve lands in. If any serve lands out, legal mechanics or not, it should be a fault. I’d also be okay with drop serves only but even that has an element of judgement-the ball being released with no added force up or down. Bottom line, refs need to do their jobs.

[@jli9246]

If it is fault, no reserve.

[@klientastic]

If we all just serve like JW there would be no questions! 😂

[@bstewartexecutivecarcare3797]

Simple, one rule for every and all tournaments regardless of which organization.

[@darrickcurrier8256]

All types of serving styles should be allowed, it will broaden the scope and skill levels of the game

[@peterbarrett5496]

Mixed doubles? Is that supppsed to be a joke

[@ctontz]

McGuffin...The greatest pickleball name ever! Devilliers just got McGuffin'd

[@gigagoatt]

😂 McDonald’s, MCGUFFIN, same difference; it’s a household name!!

[@paulngo4631]

People in rec serve like this all the time.

[@ehlai1676]

Tyson is really working on his serve ... by raising the contact point. As you see, he stands on his toe at point of contact ... In the badminton world, they also started with contact point at waist level, which means taller guys have more advantage and hard to track ... later on "the whole shuttle must be struck below 1.15m" and the second ref can enforce that with a guide tool. Since PPA implements 2 referee system, this may be something they can consider

[@vicplaystennis9158]

the refs can barely even call any lines lol

[@offthefront7537]

My only comment is why not make the drop serve the only way to serve.

[@jli9246]

It will not take long time to see some guys throw the ball to ground hardly to let the ball bound up high, then jump up to hit the ball as serve.

[@offthefront7537]

@@jli9246 it’s not a throw down serve it’s a drop serve.

[@michaelstetzer3144]

Illegal

[@patricksnyder3446]

I thought everything to do with pickle ball was happy go lucky!!! the worst part "the officials not knowing the rules NOT enforcing the rules and standing in the middle pondering their next vacations until they can call a kitchen foot fault!

[@voiceofreason9238]

You hit on a pet peeve of mine about the poor officiating in pro Pickleball. The commentators go out of their way to brag about how great the officials are, when in fact all they do is keep score and only make a call on the least important element of Pickleball, the kitchen foot fault, something that happens maybe once per game. In/out on line calls happens every point but they aren't able to do that. When asked to make a call on a simple in/out, they claim they didn't see the ball. Three refs and none of them apparently didn't see the ball! If they didn't see it, then what where they looking at? Make a call for crying out loud.

[@patricksnyder3446]

@@voiceofreason9238 wait until some real $$$$ starts getting paid out!! this is just starting!

[@ao2299]

In what way did the ref not understand the rules in this case? They were absolutely correct and following PPA rules, as dumb as they might be.

[@patricksnyder3446]

@@ao2299 the ya ready said they administered the ruling wrong! He should have never gotten to serve again after missing the first HIS illegal serve! If an official is working the match and doesn't enforce the rules does he know the rules??

[@AJCsr]

@@patricksnyder3446 Apparently the rule state's that as soon as the ball is struck (too high) during a serve, it is a do over. (Doesn't matter where the ball lands, the serve is illegal and done) Just like in football when an O lineman false starts. The play is over. What they are trying to accomplish with the rule is to end an unfair advantage as soon as it starts.

[@gg80108]

The rules for the power serve are too hard to enforce since they happen so fast. If you jump in the air, does that mean your waist is higher?

[@paulngo4631]

I always wanted to do this.

[@voiceofreason9238]

Jumping on the serve is illegal. Both feet must be on the ground.

[@ao2299]

@@voiceofreason9238 only one foot needs to be on the ground. The other can be floating above the service box if you want, see Dekel Barr's serve.

[@georgebanker2669]

Yes, by definition.

[@georgebanker2669]

Yes by definition

[@naelonachermann4613]

Ben Johns has had higher serves that never get called 😂 of course because he’s Ben Johns

[@fishinman69]

Shorter people should be able to serve above their waistline. Before a tournament starts they should measure who has the highest waistline and legal serves should be at that height.

[@gigagoatt]

😂😂😂😂

[@AJCsr]

I kinda get the impression that Tyson's pushing the rulebook and trying to get every advantage he's able to from his service. When you are right up against the edge some are going to be over the edge. Referees need to be on top of that and make good calls on all play.

[@scurryellis6807]

Tysons top spin (per rule.., tip of the paddle head needs to be below wrist) has to be monitored by slow motion camera. What then…, play the point and then review if it is a legal serve? It’s wrong to claim that it can’t be “proven” through the naked eye. So a referee then allows the motion… What other service motion where those particular rules written for? The rule was written for that motion to be not legal.

[@gigspigs]

"... he was flirting with hitting a higher serve himself..." is an admission of guilt on his own serve.

[@90sshuffle]

Pickleball was never meant to be a serious game. If it was, there would be no illegal serves. Its a game for children and the ederly

[@MrGbustamante]

Tried to sneak that one in there huh??

[@gigagoatt]

The real PROBLEM HERE is that you’re sacrificing the integrity of the game to protect your idols, no game ever should have any PICKLEBALL ROYALTY, ITS NOT A REGULATIONS MATTER, IT’S AN ETHICS MATTER!! 😇😇😇😇😇😇😇

[@bmaggis7777]

His foot is not down on the serve behind the line

[@lisazabriskie7916]

Error?

[@jaketnelson]

Ref sounds like a robot

[@jayuihlein1664]

Play Pickleball and go to Jail. That's the Law!

[@Blumdyb408]

Undercover hating get rid of him....

[@PickleSmithWildlifeAndDrone]

Never have a rule that cannot be enforced. No way to enforce the service rule.

[@Left-Foot-Brake]

Totally agree!

[@voiceofreason9238]

Sure there is! Have the ref call it! In my sport of racquetball a player may question a rule such as serve order but not a judgement call such as skips and two bounce pickup. If the ref makes the call, it's play on.

[@PickleSmithWildlifeAndDrone]

@@voiceofreason9238 that's hilarious. You didn't watch the video because the ref couldn't call it.

[@voiceofreason9238]

@@PickleSmithWildlifeAndDrone I watched the match live as it was being lives streamed and I watched this excellent video where we are all commenting. I'm a little confused by your comment "the ref couldn't call it." If you could clarify so I might address what you are pointing out. My position is that ref's DON'T make calls when that's their job. To claim for instance "I didn't see it" when asked by a player on a call is a pure cop-out IMO. My apologies if I am commenting beside the point.

[@PickleSmithWildlifeAndDrone]

@@voiceofreason9238 How long have you played pickleball?

[@Squaredot01]

This is great, I totally missed this during the livestream! If you replay Tyson's serve in slow motion it is legal... but just barely. If he doesn't go up on his toes then this serve will be above his waist. It's a monster serve unless your name is Ben Johns!! He was hitting hard returns back to McGuffin and I don't think Tyson was expecting or prepared for it most of the time. I wonder if Jay is going to change his serve up a bit after this.

[@robinrobine8100]

Not legal. He goes over the top of the ball at contact. Several pros hit illegal serves. And some of Tyson’s are hit above his waist.

[@Left-Foot-Brake]

It's not illegal all the time.... but it's not legal all the time, either.

[@true3dtours297]

The serve among other things are making this sport a joke already

[@gg80108]

Did Tyson lose a bet and got that haircut!

[@LuvMyCardiKids]

His serve doesn’t look illegal to me. The waist is higher than your added line indicates. You put the line at the hip rather than the navel.

[@robinrobine8100]

He is hitting over the top of the ball at contact. Illegal.

[@LuvMyCardiKids]

@@robinrobine8100 the rules say nothing about what part of the ball you have to hit. They indicate that you must hit in an upward motion, which he’s doing, you must make contact with the ball when it’s below your waist, which he’s doing, and your paddle has to be below the wrist which it is. Therefore it’s a legal serve.

[@zachcarmichael699]

@@LuvMyCardiKids The issue is that sometimes the upward arc isn't happening until it's above the waste. The point of contact itself is more of a flat, side serve, which is illegal. But it's so fast that most judges aren't going to call it...and it's not going to make or break the game.

[@LuvMyCardiKids]

@@zachcarmichael699 if you watch in slow motion it isn't a side arm at all and he's definitely hitting it below his waist. I play with a lot of people who side arm it and this is not a side arm at all.

[@scurryellis6807]

Rules do state the top of the paddle must be below the wrist at contact. With a slow motion camera, I’d bet 50% of Tysons serves are illegal. It’s a lame excuse for a ref not be call it because there is no proof. That paddle action was trying to be eliminated by the very rules, as stated.

[@carlg7535]

wasn't a good look for Jay

[@anoka114]

Serves are mostly illegal today! Thats what happens when you start relaxing the rules and officiating. A once great sport is being corrupted by all this "modern movement". Thanks for nothing!!!

[@himanshudewaskar5141]

Most top players in USA serve parallel or above to waist ... Unfortunately this is taken as example by youngsters world over has become a practice... USAPA should be proactive to change this practice

[@stephenbloch5017]

Quite the opposite. Most serve low to high. No more buzz saw serves and very few above waist. The serve is not really a weapon in pro pickle. They put deep and in play and rely on other elements of the game.

[@zachcarmichael699]

@@stephenbloch5017 It's definitely a weapon, especially in singles. If you can keep your opponent back even just the slightest and give yourself more options on the third, it's advantageous.

[@jli9246]

I think this is ex-tennis player's sequela, they don't know how to serve with their hands down.

[@nchambers007]

Tyson did not EVER do a "highly illegal" serve. He only has 3 types ... 1 - highly LEGAL (the times where there is no question) 2 - barely legal (cutting it close, making people wonder). 3 - and BARELY illegal, which make them impossible for refs to determine in real time, but also provide him no real advantage. ... The existing definitions are fine. No need to tweak them. If you want a super simple change, they could be tweaked to say "all serves are illegal unless they Clearly and Obviously meet all elements under real-time observation." ... Also the PPA needs to punish illegal serves with "loss of rally". No re-do. ... Barely Illegal serves truly don't matter. Cops don't give tickets for going 0.1 mph over. Likewise, unless it's CLEARLY ILLEGAL in REAL TIME, no ref will call it. Any element of the serve (such as one foot touching in the legal area, nothing touching an illegal area, upward motion, belly button, paddle head below wrist) can be slightly illegal and it simply doesn't create a big advantage. When any element is OBVIOUSLY ILLEGAL in REAL TIME (as was Jay's 'complaint' serve), the refs will call it.

[@jeremysmith9694]

The real winner here is Hannah Johns. Wow.

[@gekasaurus]

I am a Tennis player and just discovered this blasphemy of a game :) Do you guys also play like real Tennis and this is just a sort of warm up or entertaining mini game? :P

[@PastTime777]

Are you kidding me? The 2 games are completely different. Once you play Pickleball it's very hard to play tennis again. The court is huge and the way the ball comes off the racquet is very different. Plus a pickleball player gets used to the ball being near the hand at the point of contact, whereas with a tennis racquet, it's farther away.

[@rexgoodheart3471]

@@PastTime777 , think these younger fit players should be playing tennis, instead, to leave the pickleball courts to older folks such as myself.

[@celticwind4122]

bro im a tennis player too, why you going around hating on other sports? You giving tennis players a bad look.

[@GordonAllport1]

not a real sport so dont really care

[@day1814]

Pickleball is too young for be professional and will never surpass tennis

[@rexgoodheart3471]

it will never be a spectator sport, that's for sure. Too much sameness on every play.

[@yassirr8538]

OMG -- It's Pickle-Ball! Possibly the Lamest, EASIEST thing there is! I mean, Good thing it's around, you know, for the O-L-D-E-R folks, but for anyone Younger to take it This Seriously -- c'mon! 😅😅😅😅 The only reason this is So popular is because it's a place for the younger people to annihilate the older folks. "Tennis is HARD so this could stroke my ego" kinda thing. You know just like golf. Another "sport". smh

[@jisforjoy3314]

Where do you live? I'd love to challenge you to some singles games. :)

[@stephenbloch5017]

Except it's not the younger players beating the older players. Back to your parent's basement you troll.

[@nchambers007]

Pure troll. 😄

[@PastTime777]

The thing I wonder about is why they can't fill stands like tennis. If pickle ball is so popular then you would think the matches would be on ESPN, or other cable channels.

[@mallusaih]

here is another reason; tennis is expensive

[@MS-uj8dg]

Why is Jay trying to serve like that??? He doesn’t ever serve like that. Play like yourself Jay

[@thegoldenrooster8376]

What a dumb rule! Lmao reserve when it’s an illegal serve lmao what a flaw

[@thegoldenrooster8376]

I thought it was the belly button. Did they change it to the waist??,

[@voiceofreason9238]

I'm not looking at the rule book but I believe it states the serve cannot be above waist high which is considered to be at the belly button.

[@Harambemapler]

Fake tennis players...

[@michaelpoindexter8886]

Pickleball should have officials like they have in professional badminton. Badminton had so many problems with this same issue that the organization decided to set a standard height (1.15 meters in badminton) that the shuttle must be served under. Of course enforcement of whatever the rule should be controlled by a service official. cms.bwfbadminton.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Service-Device2.jpg