Imperial Struggle Review - with Tom Vasel

[@gordonpueschner3175]

Played this three times now and I love it. I liked Twilight Struggle and 1989, but really found the open sandbox nature of Imperial amazing. I give a big thumbs up to the designers for trying something new and outside of the box with Imperial Struggle, they could have gone down the TS/1989/1960 well again, but they tried something different and I love it. But agreed IS is way more complex than TS.

[@reubenlopez7821]

This is by far the best two player "war game" to come out in 20 years. It is better than twilight struggle, better than nixon.

[@darrenmcfadden1102]

Agreed. Although Twilight Struggle will always have a place for me, this game grows better and better with every play in ways that eclipse even TS.

[@michaelbudden4799]

This review is a great example of why Tom has become my go-to-guy for getting an overview of new games. He is better able than any other reviewer, I think, to go beyond his personal experience and to give a more objective view of a game’s nature, strengths and weaknesses. Despite him not loving this game, his review still made me even keener to get it when it releases because of how insightful and fair the review was. Great work, Tom!

[@AthexTube]

Good thoughts on this game, I think its likely to appeal to people that liked twilight struggle but wanted more of a war game style game.

[@isaacalien]

This is one of those rules overviews where my eyes just slowly opened wider and wider as he just. Kept. Going. Oh my!

[@OSB911]

Kudos for putting in the time to be able to give this review!

[@zero-il9on]

Aren’t you supposed to struggle? I mean: Imperial Struggle. Since it’s a war game, maybe it shows you how complicated wars are, where you need to take into account a LOT of variables. Love your reviews btw, awesome as always!

[@billsimoni]

This is an area control game with 15 areas (or 26 if you want to count each theater of each war) you need to control - good luck prioritizing ;) The gameplay is daunting for the first turn or two, then is no more difficult than a medium-heavy Euro. It is incredibly complex in trying to figure out an effective strategy, which you must be willing to change based on what your opponent does. One "improvement" IMHO compared to Twilight Struggle is that you do not need to memorize the cards to feel competent, although you should have a working understanding of how the other player's ministry cards work (about 5 in each era). This game will end 2020 at the top of GOTY candidates for heavy/wargamers.

[@Lugo428]

I only read the first sentence, and I don't think I read that right. 15?! That's insane!

[@billsimoni]

Lugo428 it sounds like a lot, but the overview Tom gave captures it - 4 regions of the board, 1 sub-region of Europe for bonus points, 6 goods markets, and 4 theaters of the next war. There is significant overlap among these areas.

[@darrenmcfadden1102]

@@Lugo428 Monopoly is an "area control" game, and it has 28 areas... I guess it's twice as complex, by that standard...

[@Lugo428]

@@darrenmcfadden1102 no.

[@rockhopper01]

I do love this game, but you’re right about the plethora of things to do. Even as a wargamer used to such games, I am a bit overwhelmed with the amount of levers that you can manipulate in this game. I’m sure it’ll click given enough plays, but I’ve only been able to begin to barely discern how everything comes together. Great review.

[@poMocnyMichal]

While the Cold War is quite an interesting topic I think the rivalry between France and Britain is far more riveting - great topic and great, innovative game.

[@stefansibbes2548]

Any chance Tom would ever try Maria? Its not as daunting as this, is ranked high on BGG and is simply the best wargame ever made for 3 players.

[@dearmrdw]

Probably not, Maria is too niche, too old and too narrow in potential audience. Thankfully for the hobby there are a lot of people who did review Maria and sung its praise, while Tom focused on things that he have enjoyed probably more than he would Maria. If you want to see more wargames covered online - it's time to check out other reviewers/channels and support them as well as the beloved Dice Tower - I have been supporting and DT and some other niches of the hobby and reviewers for years - you don't need to limit yourself to only one stream of the review goodness :)

[@Apeshower]

Be confident in your own opinion and know it’s shared by many others. You don’t need Toms view. 👍

[@conillet]

Execllent, honest review. Well done, Tom.

[@meenki347]

I'll stick with a two player (France vs. England) game of Struggle of Empires, which basically covers the same period. And works well enough, though it's even better multiplayer. Thanks Tom.

[@dearmrdw]

Hey, it was only fair, after everyone got a ton of 'simpler and faster than Twilight Struggle' games, to get a 'more complex and involved than Twilight Struggle' game :3 There are people who move to COIN & other heavier titles and this makes hobby more interesting and diverse. I think what will kinda hurt the opinion of people is that it's *not* a Twilight Struggle game, but more of a heavy 2p GMT game, with some heritage of Twilight Struggle. Any way, people, jump onto GMT train, check out COIN series or other non-euro non-ameritrash games, learn some history and flex your mental muscles!

[@aidancole9965]

I love the idea and the history in wargames, I just find them far far to long. I picked up Hand in the sea it seemed like a good medium weight war game its great, but it can never be played it took me and a friend 6 hours to play it, also the fact that wargames have so much random events and stressful decisions that can screw you over just make them so hard to get fun out of, I remember being 4 hours in to Hand in the sea and a random event caused all my ships to sink... like im sorry thats not fun if the game was an hour or 2 ok but in a 5 hour game i cant take it lol . like how can you mentally enjoy them maybe i just have to not care about winning at all idk

[@dearmrdw]

@@aidancole9965 this ships story was a big deal back in the day as the Roman fleet did sink, almost completely, quite randomly. Without this somehow mentioned, the game about the Punic Wars will not feel right. It's also often assumed in these games that you play multiple times and know events. You can try some shorter/quicker game, like table battles, for example. But yeah, in general it's good to know that the default assumption that there is a big investment time/learning wise. Some war games are focused on winning, while others are more of a simulation and the victory is less important, tho I think Hands in the Sea is the first case, btw.

[@aidancole9965]

@@dearmrdw yeah I get the historical accuracy of that but it still sucks as a game mechanic like there was times that the bad events went to one player three times in a row that's just not fun. Imo the events should of gone back and forth one event hurts rome next hurts Carthage or why not both get an event , why have it random. Seems like a lot of war games have stuff like this and I think it makes euro gamers and others not like them. Maybe it's an acquired taste wargames are fine taking punishment lol.

[@ThomasHerlofsen]

Having only played through the example of play (the rulebook advises you to do that first, without even reading it) I agree with Tom's main sentiments. I did find the overview of how the game works to not be up to the usual Dice Tower standard, however. Either make it clear and simple, or long and precise. This one's somewhere in between, with too many inaccuracies. It doesn't even explain the object of the game properly.

[@darrenmcfadden1102]

I initially had the same reaction, but given the complexity of the game *in comparison* to what he usually plays/demos... it's probably about as decent as one can expect. He wasn't demonstrating the game out of love or interest in instructing the audience (and he did caveat that, sort of, in the initial part of the video). It seemed he was just doing it out of rote obligation so he could get to what he really wanted to do, which was give his thoughts at the end.

[@ThomasHerlofsen]

@@darrenmcfadden1102 I agree, but I love the DIce Tower and believe he can do better. He usually does. His opinions of the game are his and his alone, of course.

[@peterlaurent9905]

i just played it this afternoon.. it was great but my brain is hurting afterwords

[@LucidorSWE]

But that's good, right?

[@Bobertron199494]

Completely agree with your comments. I also rate the game but I didn't find it intuitive at all to learn. Mostly because of the rule book. My biggest complaint with the game is the board itself. There's just too much going on. Far too many chits on the general records track. Board looks nice but the very brown colour palette means that nothing really stands out or catches the eye. Just my two cents.

[@georgejurukovski]

Great overview Tom. Your dedication into studying these games really shows. You provide more than enough information for someone to make a decision if it’s the right game for them, unfortunately too complex for my liking.

[@DownriverRick]

Fair review, thanks Tom

[@jonassevers1055]

Hahahaha the YODA of ROY's kid in the background . Tom are you jealous ?

[@GretSeat]

Found the guy who hasn't seen Mandalorian

[@bronxuk6052]

I actually thought struggle for Europe was the official follow up, it is far more relatable to twilight having almost identical boards and the same mechanics, maybe you should try that Tom.

[@jackskellingtonsora]

I don't actually like heavy wargames that much. But I did love Twilight Struggle immensely. I probably wouldn't like other GMT games though, looking at their library. There was something elegant about the back and forth, push and pull nature of the game with the card play. There seemed to be just enough choices that it made every single round feel weighty and impactful. Even if you just did realignment roles. Those roles could determine the course of the game. I really liked the way the scoring cards worked and how those would pop up multiple times in the game and it really impacted the course of the turn guessing whether the other person had a scoring card or not. This game, just looking at this review, feels more overly complex than Twilight Struggle's sleek, streamlined design. Nothing was overblown. Nothing was there for no reason. It all felt so well done. This feels a lot more bloated from looking at it.

[@Apeshower]

Note your view on GMT games but…….gonna say Colonial Twilight. It’s a 2 player COIN game. Really strong push pull feel and plenty of choices. Great game. Weirdly gets marked down a bit because it’s not a 4 player COIN game and most COIN fans seem to like that player count, but for 2 players it’s ace.

[@AnaIvanovic4ever]

My brother bought this recently, will play it this christmas wirh him. I love TS, unlike Tom I'm more interested in the theme in IS, but boy that board looks busy, not a nice simple world map.

[@AltarenGalil]

Whats up with the GMT company logo on cards and playerboard thats super annoying.

[@pczplughead]

I kinda want to try it because the theme is very interesting, but the main thing is the board - just looking at it gave me a panic attack! It just looks too busy to me (from just glancing in this video.) I wonder if this is the sort of thing where watching others play it would be the best way to learn, rather than try to decipher it yourself.

[@joelbergvonlinde1389]

The board is much more clear when you actually have it infront of you and start playing. Our only problem with it was that some areas in NA/Caribbean seem to overlap a little, and I was nerveous when I first looked at the board as well

[@dearmrdw]

Just treat it as a challenge. I played Twilight Struggle years ago with half a day of preparation, then, years later, I played my first COIN games, with a day of preparation or more. Eventually both became a relatively accessible games for me and the time investment was absolutely worth it, but you need to have a proper mindset - don't expect 'just read the rules and play', check Playbook, check Rulebook, set up the game and move pieces around - and as with all GMT games I played - you shall be rewarded with A TON OF AWESOME FUN.

[@pczplughead]

@@dearmrdw Yeah, I understand that and it isn't like I couldn't learn how to play... but I definitely would have the same issue as Tom. In X months time after that (as there are so many games vying for table time, so to speak), I'd be going "well, I can't really remember how to play ... and you've not played before so... let's do something". An unfortunate fact of life - I sold my Lisboa and my Mage Knight copies for the same reason - I'd come back and have to relearn it all again.

[@dearmrdw]

@@pczplughead yup, I can relate, though it's more about approaching the hobby and gaming. I think Imperial Struggle could become one of the games people want to play again and again, learning new strategies and trying out different ideas VS having it as a once-in-a-while treat. Though just giving a game a go for a few weeks and then moving on is fine as well. I kept my copy of The Gallerist, though we had to re-learn it every time as my group was fine with it.

[@mr.schnizzl4819]

What is this MedievaLoRe game behind Tom?

[@tyrussleightholme7261]

That's Medieval Realms

[@primusinterpares5767]

I personally liked imperial struggle more than TS.

[@godefroy1990]

J'aime ce jeu beaucoup plus que Twilight Struggle. Il y a plus d'histoire et plus d'options que dans ce jeu-là. J'ai hâte de jouer les Guerres Napoléoniennes si jamais ils sortent cette édition.

[@peanutplaysboardgames6868]

The number of errors in the rules, in the playbook, on the board and the horrible layout of the rule book prevent this from being as good as it could be. Mechanically wonderful... but could have used more time and feedback. Empirically, this is not a finished product as it shipped.

[@docMurk]

Interesting! Can you detail (or link) the inaccuracies/errors?

[@peanutplaysboardgames6868]

@@docMurk There is a thread on BGG with a list of errata.

[@SirBlackjack010]

Oh boy, that map makes me nope right out.

[@tmon6219]

Tom should study history more!! :)

[@drbasseri]

What??

[@WolfGratz]

Well you can't be an expert on everything! This is a long and complicated subject and there is a tendency for even those into our rivalry to concentrate on specific aspects either of period or type of competition. And in particular I sympathise if Tom found himself tempted to concentrate on the European theatre! Personally i find this really interesting but i quite understand others are going to struggle or even give up. Each to their own

[@dearmrdw]

We all should, it's worth it, especially since in our modern global worlds it's uncommon to actually learn anything beyond basic local history, covering at best one continent + WW2 + some random names of a couple of ancient civilizations. No wonder people end up believing in UFO and other nonsense as they don't get to learn actual science and history of the place where we all live, planet-wise.

[@Possi_ball]

Sounds being much more heavier than Twilight Struggle, but if this is the case why gamers who play much heavier games, would prefer this than a ton of similar war games already in the market? In my opinion this was a kinda bad move by the company and they should aim for lighter games than this, like Twilight Struggle, but I think it worked out for them cause I see some interest for the game in BGG.

[@Penceos]

I'm in the target audience for Imperial Struggle - I wouldn't say there are a ton of similar games covering the 18th century like this. Handful of games about individual topics maybe (ie. individual theaters of the four wars covered by IS), or multiplayer euro-hybrid games like Struggle of Empires.

[@kornelije.h]

This game is about war, but it is not a war game.

[@caomhan84]

GMT has their niche pretty well covered. And the initial printing of imperial struggle is close to selling out, and they're going to reprint it. so I don't think it was a bad move by the company at all. From the reviews that I see, compared to twilight struggle, imperial is a more immersive experience that rewards multiple plays in a deeper richer way. You're constantly discovering something new and that's why people are liking it.

[@dearmrdw]

If you think it was a bad move for the company, you probably doesn't know much about GMT. They are extremely successful... and Twilight Struggle is one of their lighter games. This hobby doesn't have to be all Sushi Go and Ticket To Ride.

[@darrenmcfadden1102]

GMT will do many print runs of this game, it's already eclipsed in volume their usual sales of their games. So no, it's not a bad move at all on their part. It's in fact an optimal move. This game isn't designed to bring in non-GMT/non-wargaming crowds except by nature of those who've already played Twilight Struggle and are ready to embrace a somewhat more complicated affair. Additionally, GMT already has a strong lineup of games that *are* simpler fare, both currently and in the near future. There's even a 'kiddie' version of Twilight Struggle on its way. So they're neglecting nobody, really.

[@gaillardlionel]

Scary rule book... i find it hard enough to read one rule book, but two? no thanks... reading rules is the number 1 detractor of getting into games, as a designer i would think twice before releasing something like that...

[@Javaslinger7730]

There is ONE rulebook. The other is a playbook containing an example playthrough and the bulk of it is actually designers notes and historical notes.

[@darrenmcfadden1102]

"as a designer i would think twice before releasing something like that..." Chuckle. As a designer, they've pretty much broken the bank in sales and acclaim, so I'm pretty sure I'll trust their designer chops any day. Detailed rule books aren't for everyone, so I don't begrudge anyone for skipping this if the detailed rules are troublesome. However, the rule book for IS is stellar, and the playbook equally so. Tom's critique of the rule book, given what a colossal train wreck his own published game's rule book was... is hypocritical beyond the pale.

[@peanutplaysboardgames6868]

Kenneth Knott Except that the setup is in the playbook, so you do need it. It’s not just flavor.

[@stefanoperna231]

Heavier GMT games (such as the COIN series, Space Empires, or this one) have rulebooks written a "repeat playthrough" perspective. They are more similar to, say, FFG's Learn To Play + Rules Reference setup. They assume you'll start with the playbook (either set it up solo, or with buddies), play through the simulated tutorial, and read the main rules accordingly. I tested their system, and it works well, considering the complexity we are dealing with here. Granted, the comment about the setup is on point. GMT isn't perfect after all. But I like the system - for games that are to be played many times, it works well. For others, they don't use it themselves (example: Dominant Species).

[@Javaslinger7730]

Imperial Struggle is vastly better than TS. This is NOT a complex game. And frankly the cold war is boring. Any good game is initially overwhelming. The decision space is wonderful. The rulebook is actually quite clear and well written. Good lord man.. The tiles are a great deal of what makes this a wonderful game. I completely disagree with this review...

[@lexodius]

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like eeeh, your opinion, man.

[@dearmrdw]

@Kenneth it's a matter of taste and preferences, just like a lot of people love WW2 theme and some stay miles away from it. It's a complex game compared to most of the games DT's 80% of the audience is focused on. I think it's worth to remember that Tom is talking about what HE LIKES, like in his own preferences (and to some extent he talks to his general audience), not an absolute universal truth. Mark Herman could say that Pericles is not a complex games for him to play while some people struggle with Ticket To Ride rulebooks, so it's all a matter of perspective.

[@peanutplaysboardgames6868]

Some people like cucumbers better pickled. And I might agree IS is mechanically maybe not as complex, the rules book makes the learning curve unnecessarily steeper than TS.

[@johanrosenberg6342]

I'm probably still going to go for TS. IS sounds really nice, but I only have my mom to play with and introducing her to something like this would probably not be easy. There's also the matter of advantage. I'm usually better than her at games, but with TS I think she might have a slight advantage in that she would remember some of its history. I miss going out to play games.

[@pm71241]

They are different games. I wouldn't want to compare as if one would make the other redundant.

[@msmilder25]

looks like a 25 year old 1,000 chit game...with charts galore...dense rules...gonna have to pass on this one.

[@Dometooplz]

There are no charts. This is more like a heavy area majority\control euro with a strong theme.

[@joelbergvonlinde1389]

Dometooplz Not a lot of ‘chit’s either. Mostly double sided flags and some military counters. So no, actually not much like those 25 year old games.

[@ilqrd.6608]

​@@Dometooplz nothing Euro about it tbh, it's actions selection and are control on several levels paired with a bit of card driven gameplay

[@Dometooplz]

@@ilqrd.6608 These are euro mechanics, yes.

[@Javaslinger7730]

Lol. There are no charts... The rules are not dense. It is overwhelming.

[@wartable]

Overrated game...

[@waferjuice]

I WIN THE FIRST GAME !! FIIIRSSSTT