In Defence of Adrien ⎮A Miraculous Ladybug Season 4 Discussion

[@samariasylvester402]

"He has romanticized being a hero because it lets him forget." I love this deep character analysis. I'm an English major so I Iove analyzing viewpoints in works of literature and TV.

[@magicallydelicious1673]

Samaria Sylvester Yeaaahhh :D

[@a5alzahra]

Analytical group unite! Same! I love analysing all that plus songs in musicals

[@MrRmcbigboss]

I'm a philosophy student and I love this level of analysis also.

[@shoshi5533]

The miraculous also acts like Clark Kent's telepathic glasses & this mind suppression works for secret identity!!!!

[@Dorian-of1yx]

Brilliant take truly. Like I personally don’t think that was the writers’ intention, but it’s a fire headcanon and great analysis

[@saramcmurtrie3955]

I just wish we saw more of Adrien

[@issakitungano3341]

Same

[@chloe4521]

Sameeee

[@ellie_bells4988]

sammee

[@hayamihinata4135]

Exactly, I just want more episodes focused on him over Marinette.

[@pixisticks]

Same

[@linalag7051]

I don't think marinette is getting much development either cuz she's became more of a stalker in season 3 and cat noir they completely ignored the fact that adrien is actually really smart and how he acts. Adrien is not impulsive or stupid or completely useless like how they portrayed him in season 3. And they basically did this to make it seem like ladybug is a genius and that she can do anything and it also shows that she doesn't need his even though the creators always say that they are equals and depend on each other what is shown in the show completely contradicts that. Anyway I don't want to rant too long so... Thanks for coming to my ted talk

[@panthosilea]

I agree that Ladybug saves the day and always uses Cat Noir for it. But Cat Noir should step up and save the day himself, for once. I mean: he can cataclysm Akumas. Why isn't he the hero of the day instead of Ladybug? Just one episode would be enough to develop Cat Noir's Superhero-Persona. But it has to be extremely meaningful not just for Cat Noir, but also for the entire Story of Miraculous.

[@omarelmasri9939]

Realia Dreamlove Thomas is holding him back, that’s the problem

[@aiseaweed]

I think Marinette is getting her development, because the last 2 episodes in Season 3, She seems to be moving on from Adrien so she's not becoming more obsessed over him like how CN used to be obsessed over LB and Marinette isn't becoming more stalker like just like how CN/Adrien moved on from LB..

[@linalag7051]

@@aiseaweed if you watch the episodes in production order in one episode you can see her moving on and then in the the next she's back to stalking adrien

[@tulip135]

This!

[@lanatherana157]

I've been saying this from the start, Adrien deserves better. He's literally the heart of the show in a lot of ways and they do him dirty so much of the time. Adrien is literally the glue, his conflict with his dad and that complicated relationship even more complicated by the aspect of being super heroes. Adrien is also the character I find myself agreeing with more since he's more empathetic compared to Marinette who has become increasingly more selfish. ADRIEN IS THE MOST MATURE IN REGARDS TO A LOT THINGS.

[@miss_chelles1338]

Yeah that is true sadly. Compared to Marinette Adrian is more mature. and I myself also agree with him sometimes.

[@missange4701]

Wait, how has Marinette become MORE selfish?! Literally in the last episode of season 3, she gives up the ONE thing she wanted to Kagami. And although she's massively hurt and jealous, she let's go. She has grown a lot, and so has Adrien. But, Marinette has never TRIED to force their relationship, while Adrien, as Cat Noir would constantly over, and over ask Ladybug to reveal her identity, and push his feelings onto her, to the point of lying to her to try to make her jealous. He may had admitted it after, but he still did it. She doesn't lead Cat on, and straight out tells him, that she is in love with someone else. I personally think she is the most mature in the show.

[@issakitungano3341]

TheLeRealRedRose 1 cat noir Has never tryed to make ladybug Jealous she’s the one who always gets jealous she ‘s is mean to cat noir I Think cat noir smartest Adrian is Really nice Marinette sometime she is is mean And get People Turned into a villain

TheLeRealRedRose 1 uhm, yes but then again Marinette has literally stalked Adrien, stuff like breaking into his house for a crush is an actual crime you can get jail time for (regardless of the reason)

[@fieryicymilkman6098]

@@missange4701 In that same episode she could of picked chloe to help with defending the villain but no she picked kagami so her and adrian wouldn't get closer

[@bluetheblue4179]

Of all characters in this show, I think Adrien/Chat Noir is the most entertaining to watch by far. There is so many things going on with him: his estranged relationship with his father, who unknownly to Adrien is the enemy he has been fighting against for the past 2 years, the fact that he uses Chat Noir to let out parts of his personality that he doesn't feel comfortable or even allowed to show, the struggles that would come from being sheltered for your entire life and his love for someone who doesn't feels the same and constantly rejects him at a daily basis. Yet, he is mostly treated as a sidekick, a comedy relief character who needs Ladybug for everything. "Reflekdoll 2" really annoyed me particularly, because instead of using the exchange of Miraculous to show how much they need each other and how they are a perfect fit in their roles, the only thing Mister Bug did that was useful was simply activating Lucky Charm and Miraculous Mister Bug, and then admiting how he can't do anything without Ladybug. This treatment that he receives is not only bad for his character, but bad to Ladybug's, because fans will start to resent her for taking the spotlight every single time. Anyways, thanks for listening my Ted talk.

[@issakitungano3341]

You're welcome

[@linalag7051]

Well said

[@hanon880]

Totally agreed! And since Marinette has her world literally build around him (she clearly doesn't have a life or real obstacle except her love life or Hawkmoth -both linked to Adrien), she is "taking the spot" of what could actually make the story really moving. The story around Adrien could work alone (you make a few change like the ladybug's power to fit but the story doesn't really get affected on its own if Ladybug disappears). The story around Marinette... Could never work without Adrien, and I think it's the worst for a main character: life is too easy for her, except her love life.They could be a great duo: if Marinette/ladybug had a impact on Adrien' story (it'll come but OH GOD it's already 3 seasons) Adrien has the personality of a flat character (kzbin.info/www/bejne/paWTY5uDf5t7oc0)=> the classic hero arc: the main is good, they have belief, a BIG change questions it but in the end, they still believe in it and change the world around them. (we are still waiting the change...) Marinette shows the signs of characters development: bad temper, not healthy obsession but it still doesn't begin to show any change after 3 seasons. I think it's the most annoying thing ever.

[@irlzombii]

🙊

[@ClaudetteVioletta]

Marry me.

[@uncommonlilly2392]

Totally agree. Adrien is wicked smart, even if Marinette isn’t actively trying to figure out Chat Noir identity she just hasn’t even come close. While I agree that Chat Noir staying stagnant makes sense, the holding out for Ladybug is just another form of escape. He loves her, but it’s very romanticized. Because having a real relationship would be messy and painful. Even if they dated as superheroes and kept their identities a secret at the same time, it wouldn’t be enough for either of them.

[@gio-ve7vn]

@Hunting Ground forever salty about this ^ Edit: to expand on this, I think season 1 had better fight choreography (tho I haven't seen it in a while so I might be mistaken). Chat would engage the enemy/protect Ladybug while Ladybug makes a plan of attack. That's a pretty valid role for Chat but it just goes downhill from there? The problem is that Chat, instead of being a dual protagonist w Ladybug, he's treated as a foil just to make Ladybug look better. So they don't bother giving him development and nerf him at every turn.

[@Ballssuckerman2000]

it’s even said that he does really well in school too. he may be a little oblivious at times but is him being in denial

[@DigimonGaara]

@Hunting Ground i couldn't said It better. Perfect examples, even as an adult he's still being fool :(

[@hiwelcometochillis5989]

YES and he said in the kung food episode that the worst grade he ever got is an A-

[@Vampxiii_]

Exactly!!

[@crystalpokedude4329]

My complaint with Adrien's stupidity isn't over things out of mask. My issue is with episodes like Reflekdoll and Weredad where they treat him like he's incompetent. Adrien is smart, but none of the fights ever let you see this because they're too busy hyping up Ladybug. Marinette spends the entire episode of Reflekdoll chastising him, and he doesn't contribute anything meaningful to Weredad, since it's not like Tom would have attacked Marinette, who still would have found the rose and taken him out. He's the one to always waste his super power or get mind controlled while Ladybug saves the day. This dynamic would be fine if the show at least acted like Chat was a sidekick instead of insisting that he's Ladybug's equal and the two balance each other out. It kinda defeats the point of the Yin/Yang concept if the show doesn't treat them like...... well, equals. Instead, they decided to Make Yin far more powerful than Yang, which doesn't work. TL;DR: Adrien is mainly being mistreated in Costume, and Thomas acting like Ladybug and Chat Noir are equals in a fight is a bold faced lie.

[@issakitungano3341]

I totally agree with you I don't like how he's being treated

[@twilluz7188]

Yea and of course ladybug gets the miracle box instead of them sharing it and ladybug gets to give a the miraculous to people

[@mymainaccount3587]

@@twilluz7188 Exactly, Thomas focuses the show on Marinette when he obviously said that “Adrien and Marinette were equal”. I would most likely say Adrien would be better as the miraculous holder, why? Marinette could obviously let her parents, etc find out she’s ladybug/the miraculous holder because of her obsession with Adrien. And it’s also disappointing to see Marinette become the miraculous holder when she made many “mistakes” in the show. But the problem is, is that when Adrien does any “mistake” he always tries to fix them like in weredad, but Marinette? She always like it was a mistake then she never tries to fix the problem like when she reveal master fu’s identity to hawk moth. Mhm, totally equal, Thomas.

[@twilluz7188]

@@mymainaccount3587 yes when i watched the origins i was like “wow a boy and a girl being equal in battle and in plot development!” since usually they either make the girl overpowered or vice versa at least in the shows that i watch 🤷‍♀️.i really don’t like how adrien NEVER gets to see master fu.i expected them to half the miracle box between them but sadly that is not what they had in mind.Thats why i love the New York special so much.It showed how ladybug needed cat noir

[@cutedouma4551]

@@twilluz7188 and then she gives it to alya

[@ItssMelissa]

My issue with Adrien's intelligence (and Max's) portrayal is how he's portrayed as an idiot when the show bats you over the head about how Adrien has to maintain his high grades if he wants to stay in school and how Max is the most intelligent one there but at every turn they both suddenly become stupid when it makes Marinette or Ladybug look good (see almost any episode but specifically, Reflektdoll [for Adrien] or any episode with Lila [for Max])

[@issakitungano3341]

Astyn Smart so true

[@kidnow_squidnow]

ikr max believed lila when she said a napkin could rip out his eye?? even though it was crumpled up and he was wearing glasses??? hes way too smart for that.

[@strangerthingsisoverrated8942]

I feel like when adrien was Mr bug he was presented in a way that really annoyed me because even as ladynoir marinette didn't struggle but adrien couldnt be a good Mr bug because even when he got his lucky charm he couldn't figure out how to use it and ladynoir had to to tell him. and I think they could have made adrien a little more smarter for this episode because he couldn't even use his lucky charm without marinette telling him what to do while marinette was a really good ladynoir and didn't struggle at all.

[@purrfectionduo4178]

Stranger things Is overrated Well when you think about it in the origins episode Marinette wasn’t very good at being ladybug yet chat had no trouble

[@joshuajohnson5337]

What's funny about that episode is that it actually presented Adrian as a slightly better Ladybug than Marionette. He specifically wanted a mirror, and got it from the lucky charm. Rather than this being a reflective moment for Marionette on how she could better use and master her powers, she makes fun of him and is almost bullying at times in that episode. Here Adrian is using Marionette's powers better than she can, and the show refuses to acknowledge this.

[@marindaasem2027]

I think ladybugs lucky charm is given to marinette so that she can defeat the villain in a creative way whereas Adrien's way of thinking is more straightforward, which is why he doesn't suit the ladybug miraculous

[@kabsageigj8941]

They both fought equally well and they neither used their swapped powers correctly. Ladybug even asking Cat Noir why the cataclysm failed. This is an important detail. She looks to him for advice on * his * Miraculous. She knows he would have a better understanding and this was her mindset with the Ladybug. "I'm more experienced with it, let me give you advice" but no, instead Cat decides he's got it all figured out which frustrated her. Yes, he got what he thought of but his solution didn't work in the slightest. Now I don't approve of her attitude but I do believe it's blown out of proportion because 1: she had a valid reason to be annoyed and 2: this "told you so attitude" didn't last very long. In my opinion it could be compared to Cat's little pouty display in Frozer, except I think you could make the case that he was less justified. Now I don't harp on either of these incidents. Not their finests moments but hey they're kids, so I don't mind that immaturity coming out occasionally. Besides they both make up for it shortly after. As for making him dumb? Well I get the arguement. I wish Ladybug could have simply hinted at the solution but Mr Bug still figured it out himself. That said I have episodes like Oblivio and Miracle Queen to look to so it's clear they do not consider him dumb. I think this episode would be viewed more positively if Gamer 2.0 was seen as the one to balance it out. They are parallel scenarios.

[@marindaasem2027]

@Hunting Ground it was, Adrien simply thought that using a mirror was going to defeat reflektdoll which makes sense and it really straightforward, even though he gets a mirror he's not supposed to use it as a mirror but instead as a coin even though it makes more sense to use it as a mirror. It's not that Adrien isn't smart is just that he's not creative. The show even shows that as marinette is creative because she likes to draw and does fashion, whereas Adrien is really smart in school but we never actually see him doing anything creative. Also due to the fact that this episode came out after Adrien used the snake miraculous it's been proven that Adrien only really suits the cat miraculous.

[@lollipopsky8941]

I never thought Adrien is stupid because I understand the show is purposefully making characters oblivious for the sake of dragging out the whole story. Now, after three seasons that same narrative could get potentially boring and repetitive, so it's almost expected people will get tired of it. Anyway, Agreste family and their backstory has always been the most interesting and intriguing part of this show for me personally and I believe for many others as well. At the end of the day, they're the ones who bring most of the actual plot to the whole show. Whenever we get an Agreste episode, it's always something mysterious and new that just begs to be explored more. Now, I understand that the whole appeal of this family is that they essentially stay mysterious, but I don't think it would be damaging to learn more stuff about them. Exploring their potential doesn't necessarily mean spoiling all the important secrets they're having. I also want more Adrien's POV. More of his thoughts, feelings, maybe even some flashbacks from his childhood. He deserves it, because he's a great character. Also, just because this show is targeted towards young girls, it doesn't mean other characters shouldn't be explored as well, especially someone important like Adrien is. Thomas has been kinda repetitive with Marinette these past three seasons, especially when it comes to her unhealthy obsession towards Adrien (which is in my opinion not a good representation of female empowerment, especially when she proceeds to be jealous and fight with every girl who gets near him), so it's really no wonder people are asking to see more about Adrien and his life.

[@jaidenmotes2257]

I completely agree with what you have to say, man you took the out of my mouth.

[@eshajoshi3597]

Marinette's obsession has always been a turn off for me but I always ignored that cos there's a lot more to her character. But maybe this is what the creators were aiming for. We have noticed how unhealthy her obsession is and in the S3 finale both Marinette and Adrien decide to move. There could be character development for her in S4 as she moves on and realises how obsessed she was.

[@zzeeeee824]

Yes Thomas... this comment 👏right👏here👏

[@90lancaster]

I had this feeling Adrien sometimes pushes things along, Hawkmoth definitely does, Marinette just reacts. We are told a lot about Marinette - but how much of it is even relevant to the show is a whole other question. Essential character details in this show are simply missing, such as we never had much of an afterword to the whole Nathaneal situation. It was like he likes Marinette, now he likes Ladybug, oh and now he likes Marc back (maybe). As for making characters look like idiots - well how about Max and the napkin ?

[@callofhaloinfinite6336]

I think the creators are going for anime tropes. Like making Marinette a non-violent yandere for one example.

[@90lancaster]

The show doesn't sell it's ideas to much, For example Cat Noir will constantly put himself down the only thing he's really allowed to do is bolster any self-doubt Ladybug has (and even that only rarely). But his Persona of Cat Noir doesn't bother me particularly - what bothers me (a lot) is partly his own feelings of self worth only occasionally being bolstered in return (she mainly treats him like trash or gives him mixed messages). Adrien is desperately lonely boy who wants to find some connections and make up for lost time, and he's not so great at it. Marinette only really sees what other people can do for her (other than what sense of duty Tikki and Cat Noir and even Alya indirectly bullied into her) I don't think she even really wants to be Ladybug that much it stops her from living her life, where as Cat Noir - that is his life everything else is what he's escaping from. They should in part be a mirror if the idea is to move them to the resolution of the love square but really Marinette doesn't really often suffer long term consequences for her misdeeds. And Adrien just continues to suffer. I blame both of them for lack of meaningful character development - as lets be honest what does Ladybug actually do ? Nothing much really. She's just constantly praised by everyone and then when she's a civilian she crashes into Adrien makes a fool of herself and thinks she's useless for a bit. and that is all there is- Ladybug is perfect (aside from a bit of Jealousy & ego) and Cat Noir is a moron as soon as he puts the suit on. No progression. That was why people liked Chloe she had progression (until they ruined it). even Lila and Kagami have a more interesting story arc than Marinette. Marinette is as static image of "average - slightly clumsygirl" with some sprinkles of the occasional thievery and stalking. This woman is supposed to be the Guardian of the Miraculous - about time she grew a brain and a spine I think when she's out of costume too.

[@miss_chelles1338]

I like your analysis, I think that's why i still have feelings of pity towards Adrien and resent Marinette even if I understand some good points people make about why their characters are how they are. Because of the love Square, I think it's really affecting on how they treat each other and how the viewers (including myself) feel about them.

[@CookiesAreNoice]

@@miss_chelles1338 but isn't it a love Pentagon with Adrien at the top.

[@CookiesAreNoice]

Also you spekaing facts

[@miss_chelles1338]

@@CookiesAreNoice Pfff. Yeah, cant forget about luka and kagami. Also maybe aspik and multi mouse? Lol

[@luvpiesomuch9333]

That's so true 🤔 Marinette's role as ladybug is more like a responsibility she has to bear, while Adrien's role as Chat Noir is to escape from his usual life and have a taste of freedom.

[@amberpasta9379]

I just find it really irritating that Adrien is clearly smart like even is top of the class in grades but when it comes to fighting as cat it’s as if he’s just waiting for ladybug to give him hints and direction.. I kinda wish he would be independent in terms of ideas and contributing to the “team” but for the most part it’s just like ladybug telling him what todo and her taking charge. I just want them to be both good leaders that are working together for a common goal

[@themegagamer6086]

I never thought Adrien was dumb or dense because marinette has straight up lied to him and not only that Luka and marinette at the ice rink made him think that they were a thing. Now on to your second point it seems you got a few things right but here's the thing do we know about Adrien's family other that his father in seasons 1 and 2 including most of season 3 because that all we know about the Agreste family is just emilie, Gabriel, and Adrien and that was it meanwhile we meet Gina, Roland, chang che fu, and other mention family members in Marinette Now we know what Marinette wants to be when she grows up but what about Adrien and sure its such a minor detail no should care but the writers make it a big deal for Marinette that it can't be over and there's other minor details we don't know about Adrien that doesn't quite add up to how much we know about Marinette "Goofy sidekick?" really that isn't what cat noir is suppose to be. Ladybug and cat noir are supposed yin and yan but it seems that's not the case because ironically they don't show it in fact they show that he is incompetent as a hero such as reflekdoll and I'll leave it at that before I rant about that episode and how it made Adrien look very dumb.

[@jodelthompson]

Wow it's the first time i have seen someone share my opinion on Adrien being dense. Like Marinette has lied to him multiple times saying that she has no romantic feelings for him at all. Also the fist time they met she was mad at him because she thought he put gum on her seat. Then he got her to forgive him and become his friend. I don't expect him to easily think that she's in love with him now. Also Adrien has been isolated most of his live and has not interacted with many people so it would be even harder for him to figure out that she is lying about being in love with him. Also he figured out in Chat Blanc pretty easily.

[@-soulflame-]

and everyone is like adrien ur breaking marinettes heart but she makes it like she isnt cut cat noir directly told ladybug so, truth be told, ladybug is actually breaking chats heart

[@90lancaster]

The show very often does treat Cat Noir like a goofy side kick they didn't even put Adrien or Cat Noir on the Shanghai or New York Posters and they have not featured much in the promotional materials - other than - Oh look her is Adrien dressed mostly in white (for some unspecified reason). The Season 4 synopsis mentions ladybug and HER nemesis of Shadow Moth & it mentions the Kwami- and doesn't even mention Adrien at all. That doesn't help but cement the idea that Adrien is just a fricking Trophy she wants to win - heck they even literally and metaphorically show this with the gaming contest set up. Beat Max at a videgame he's practiced at for months - just to win the Prize of Adrien. He's not a person he's a playgirl pin up to her.

[@boo9781]

themegagamer 60 so you are just gonna ignore Felix and Amelie?

[@ambersunshine1847]

The show should not underestimate Adrien. He is intelligent. He is not a sidekick. He may seem sometimes but he is not. As chat noir he tries to get a better life. A better view of life. He is not dumb. He just needs to learn more about his environment . Al his life he has been locked up.

[@blah7983]

I think the issue lies in the fact that ladybug has so much more responsibility than chat. You can give them nearly equal responsibility and still have Ladybug as the leader but that’s not what happened. Astruc said that Ladybug’s better suited for choosing miraculous holders but I don’t think that’s true. He’s aware enough not to choose Chloé, and would pick from a similar pool of people that Marinette does. He’s a little less socially aware but he grew up in the modeling industry surrounded by fakeness, he can tell how genuine someone is in an instant. I agree that he wouldn’t be an amazing choice for guardian not because of his personality, but because of his responsibilities and lack of time (Marinette chose her workload she doesn’t have an excuse). If they had Chat Noir choose a miraculous holder or two, made Reflekdoll about how both their jobs are hard instead of just Ladybugs (Astruc said LBs job being much harder was the point of the episode), and gave him a more important role in the physical fights (anyone could sacrifice themselves, half the time the cataclysm is useless, he needs a more distinct function that other miraculous holders are unable or unwilling to take on/do), no one would be complaining.

[@kabsageigj8941]

I can't agree that he's just as capable of picking holders. First Marinette gets the Lucky charm telling her to go to Fu. Being a part of her Lucky Charm means it's a part of the plan she comes up with and we see that. She's able to determine which Miraculous would be right for the particular villian they are facing. Second one of them needs to stay behind for a couple reasons. The first being that they can't both go see Master Fu at once (would require detransforming) and the second is that one needs to fight, protect citizens, and distract the akuma so they don't follow. Which leads to the third, Cat simply makes more sense for this. Also you suggested he wouldn't give it to Chloe and that he could tell a fake. I don't agree. He's still friends with Chloe despite her attitude while Marinette and Chloe mutually despised each other. And I wouldn't say detecting fakeness is something Adrien is good at. On the contrary I'd say this is a weakness. He's too trusting of people. It took him seeing Lila trying to put Ladybug in harm's way for him to give up on her. He was fooled by Felix initially. And he was also tricked by the sentibug. So... Now with all that said, I'm not opposed to him handing out a miraculous or two but I think there's a good reason this was something Marinette did and not Adrien. People may not like to hear this but Ladybug's is the harder job... I love Cat Noir and his role but be honest about it: getting some random object that you have to use your head to think up a plan for vs. instant destruction. There are other things that make Cat Noir stand out but he does have the easier role. This shouldn't be viewed as a bad thing though! Adrien so needs his freedom as Cat Noir, he needed the less restrictive and stressful Miraculous power. He has enough to deal with at home. You miss the point by saying anyone could sacrifice for Ladybug. This is literally why he was chosen. His test in Origins was a test of sacrifice and I'd argue humility as well. (a bit ironic considering how many are demanding he get the same attention and fame as Ladybug)

[@rainfairytale268]

Kabsage IGJ very well said👏👏

[@DigimonGaara]

@@kabsageigj8941 of course she Is the only one who can run to master fu for "help", the plot puts her in that position. That Is the problem, the plot Is always written to make Marinette doing the hard work, no one else can. Thats whats Is bothering people. Not only chat, the other super heroes too.

[@kabsageigj8941]

@@DigimonGaara Ultimately yes, it's the plot but it's not forced. It makes perfect sense that she is the one to go to Fu. Connecting them needing help with her Lucky Charm was a pretty clever idea and that effectively ties her to the decision since it becomes a part of the plan she must devise to defeat the akuma. And on the opposite end you've got Cat staying behind which again makes sense as he's the better fighter.

[@DigimonGaara]

@@kabsageigj8941 ha! ha! ha! chat noir isn't the better one on one fighter. The plot feels forced from the moment it's always overwhelmingly advantageous for marinette to be the only one who shines as a heroine: she makes the plan, purifies the akuma, has the power to give other miraculous, receives "special training" from fu, is the best fighter (even without having fighting skills in her civillian life), the others most of the times are only useful to sacrifice by her. It feels like the other heroes are just there, watching, like a poster without life, just to do minor chores and make a crowd.

[@jaidenmotes2257]

I agree with you, many people get mad about how Adrian/Cat Noir is poorly developed. Arguing is not going to help the situation. Especially when Thomas is getting death threats, it's just a cartoon. I know many people have a different opinion on what I have to say, and I am fine with that.

[@wthistreasureisummon]

what hes getting sent death threats just for some flaws within a cartoon? that's ridiculous

[@kylewilson2819]

Yes, but criticism is something that not only are people entitled to, but is NEEDED to make a story work. Look at Star Wars for example. George Lucas is probably the greatest visionary director of all time and has revolutionized movies in a way few can hope to even rival. Yet even he admits that his writing, at least at the interpersonal level, is horrendous. The prequels are a perfect example of this. When GL was making the original trilogy, he received constant feedback about his dialogue choices, and much of the criticism was extremely negative. Harrison Ford even threatened to tie George up and force him to read his own lines at gunpoint during filming. This acted kind of like sandpaper, where the rough nature of the criticism resulted in a much more polished and engaging story. When GL made the prequels, no one challenged him on his dialogue and the story suffered. Thomas is prequel George Lucas right now. He has total power over the story and is refusing to accept criticism, regardless of how valid it is. The result is the story has became stale, boring and lacks any sense of direction.

[@williamharmon4039]

@@kylewilson2819 That doesn't make threats and hatred directed at him personally okay though. Yes, criticism is important. But there is a difference between constructive criticism and just hatefully screaming at a person.

[@NinjaFlibble]

@@kylewilson2819 so, you're saying that Astruc needs someone to come out and put out a Miraculous sequel series that divides the entire fanbase? XD

[@kylewilson2819]

@@NinjaFlibble LOL no. He needs to be more open to criticism and recognize the flaws in his writing. You can’t completely invalidate character arcs or ignore character development and then be upset when people call you out on it.

[@paloma3095]

so basically what ur saying is: chat noir is adrien’s fursona

[@sethn1094]

I hate this because it's true.

[@anonimacnepoznati9797]

what is fursona

[@theglasswolf3206]

How did I never think of this before now? Lol

[@veronaloirejade5826]

@@anonimacnepoznati9797 it's a cat pun for persona

[@sulmii]

@@anonimacnepoznati9797 Its a Furries persona.

[@hauntedquest205]

I'd say he is dumb when it comes to social cues and interactions (being unable to recognise Marinette's super-obvious crush, how he deals with Lila and Chloe) but that is exactly what you'd expect from a character who grows up isolated in a mansion.

[@mikewolves8557]

True

[@rachell4674]

Tbh I'm not surprised he doesn't know that Marinette has a crush on him because, Chloé literally only realized in S3

[@oraclezone5026]

@@rachell4674 LOL, like the rest of the girls knew in s2 because it was that obvious 😆

[@mdnuruzzaman8767]

Ladybug: *"We're partners,* not a couple!" Me: WHY DO PEOPLE SAY MIRACULOUS *LADYBUG?* If the show circles around both of them, shouldn't it just be Miraculous? The show itself is _Miraculous:Tales of Ladybug and Chat Noir._

[@miraculer_101]

I say both. Lately, I’ve skipped Ladybug. Actually, in one country, the show is only called Miraculous Ladybug.

[@besi6578]

i just say miraculos

[@SummersDoodles]

It bothers me too But sadly in some places its called miraculous ladybug instead of just miraculous

[@oraclezone5026]

Yes! Thank you!!! I don't get it either, I mean, it said "tales of Ladybug and Cat Noir", why on Earth was Cat Noir often pushed aside when he was supposed to be a protagonist too?!?! Oracle ✨🐞🐾🎧

[@isabellekimpiob4920]

@@oraclezone5026 LOUDER‼️

[@miki_mochi]

I'm surprised people think Adrien is stupid. I always got the impression that he was smart; after all, he's come close to figuring out who Marinette is on a number of occasions and he also was able to figure out that Lila is a liar, despite literally everyone else in the show (besides Marinette) being unable to recognize that. I think he's a bit confused sometimes (like when it comes to his feelings and relationship with Marinette) but that's not entirely unrealistic either. Even though it's obvious to US that she likes him, he doesn't actually spend all that much time with her and usually when he does, she spends most of her time denying she likes him out of embarrassment so of course he thinks "she's just a friend". I think your thoughts on Cat Noir make a lot of sense too. I think there's a lot of very subtle development between the characters, which if you were to look at videos showing "proof" of their crushes on each other in various forms (Adrien's crush on Marinette; Ladybug's crush on Cat Noir) then you'll see that there actually IS development. It's subtle, but it's there. However, it's just frustrating to the viewers when the developments ARE so subtle. Could we at least get Marinette to a point where she's hanging out with Adrien and able to have a normal conversation with him? I think that's what bothers people. And imo, Adrien is presented as perfect - he's kind to everyone and everyone likes him. He has no flaws. Marinette has flaws but as you said, she's never faced with any consequences for her poor behaviors. I think that's an obvious place to start with some improvements.

[@watchingandmakingwithwolfg7195]

I knew it Adrien takes being chat noir as being free from being perfect. As Chat Noir he can show flaws and see more the world around him also being himself. But as Adrien he needs to be perfect all the time. He finds being chat noir as a escape. That's the reason why he jokes around and Ladybug does all the work almost. Cause Marinette can show flaws have fun be herself around her friends. But as Ladybug she needs to be serious to help lives. So yeah that's the reason why I like Chat Noir more.

[@solomon0568]

...going through the comments, and the video, all I can say is one thing. If Adrien is such a Bad Chat Noir, that apperantly Ladybug, someone who should be on the opposite side of the spectrum Spiritual wise, can use it better than him, at this point, I question why they gave it to him at all. If they were going to degrade him to the point of only being a Confidence Booster/Punching Bag for Ladybug, they should just take the ring away and give it to someone else. Not to say I don't like Adrien. Frankly, it's because he's my favorite Character that I'm stating this, because while I find this whole Love Square thing cute, it's so beyond unhealthy that it was good of them to cut it down in S3, method nonwithstanding. At this point, if it continues on like this, I can actually see his ring being taken away again, this time by Ladybug because of one reason or the other. Because frankly, that Bunnix Episode? Not a gurantee, as it also showed how Parralel Timelines are indeed a thing.

[@miss_chelles1338]

Yeah, I was SO glad that the love square was finally separating. This also speaks my point I was analyzing Adrian's character (at least after reading some comments). Adrian versus Marinette in terms of how valuable they are as individuals, marinette obviously wins because Adrian's is replaceable, sadly.

[@solomon0568]

@@miss_chelles1338 Eh. That's more of a case called Bad Writing, since Adrien as a character can't really be replaceable due to the...precarious position he's in. Chat Noir, however...well...we all know what they're doing to him. As for the Love Square, I'm holding my breath, considering what I've heard about those ML Synopsis about New York and Shan...hai...I think? Wouldn't be the first time this show was inconsistent with its own story.

[@queenalliyah]

He's not a bad Chat Noir.Its just that he's so blinded by Ladybug that he just does her every bidding.Chat Noir has all the potential in the world to be better than her but doesnt show it.Ladybug just naturally takes charge without giving him a chance to pitch in for an idea,He's wicked smart but since Ladybug immediately takes charge,he cant get a single word in

[@DentedShroom]

Not to worry tho cuz Adrienette will be canon (confirmed) and it’ll mostly likely happen in season 4 (lukanette vs Adrienette confirmed) and then there was the NY special

[@solomon0568]

@@DentedShroom I had several issues with the NY Special, and while some scenes were admittedly cute, looking at it from the bigger picture gave me more worries than relief. The Adrinette confirmation being near the top of the list.

[@shayleep5824]

Fandom: ewww Adrien isn’t smart. Adrien: literally 1/2 people in the entire city of Paris to see through Lila’s lies.

[@quietopinion9637]

Still doesn't show he cares about Mari one bit

[@arithelovely3153]

@@quietopinion9637 Bro Do you even watch the show? Adrien cares so marinette so much, After lila got mari expelled adrien threaten lila, He knows lila is lying even tho all his friends were at lila's table, Adrien stands up for mari, He saved her a bunch of times, HE said in puppeteer 2 "Marinette is important to me, So i have to make her feel good when shes around" He cheered up up when they were at the balcony, He ditched kagami to see if marinette was okay, And alot more, Adrien really does care for her, I dont think you even watch the show, Or you're either a new fan

[@ashleydortch2445]

Can you do a video about marinette being a stalker

[@samariasylvester402]

YES! I'll never understand why one nice gesture made Marinette flip out over Adrien.

[@90lancaster]

As well as a Stalker, she's also an obsessive, she's also a Thief (Cameras and phones usually), Regularly gropes Adriens chest under the guise of falling over so he can catch her, is a Hypocrite, is insanely jealous, physically hits Cat Noir with her Yo Yo & hits him over the head with other objects, sends him mixed signals to string him along yet doesn't want to let him off the hook either, calls him an idiot repeatedly and has gotten only slightly fewer people Akumatised than Chloe has. This is our show's Heroine ladies and gentleman !

[@dvreaux]

@@90lancaster Ok,If your gonna list Marinette's flaws AT LEAST LIST HER GOOD THINGS LIKE:she always tries to fix the messes she creates.She May Be a obsessive Stalker.But Once She Realizes What she thinks she is doing for Adrien is selfish.She will try and fix things like she did when She realize she hurt Kagami.And also Your Acting Like Ladybug Beats Cat Noir Up.Like All She does is let a magic yo-yo Fall on his head? and it dosent seem like it hurts very much. And Also When She is "Leading Him On" Its Natural.When Your With Somebody For a Pretty Long time you develop a relationship.Soo yeah.And Marinette Is Always Ready to help Someone.She Wouldn't be Ladybug If She Wasn't. So Yes Our Heroine Has Flaws But She has good Things.Thats what We Call A human ladies and gentlemen.

[@JuanThePecina]

LittleSlenderMan321 and in one of the episodes ladybug says to cat noir that she doesn’t like him like that and the she wants to be friends

[@belovedari]

Yeah, that’s my main problem with her.

[@philswiftismygod1451]

My personal problem is that Cat Noir can't be clever in the show. I see that he doesn't have to change too much but it's kind of like he can't get better as a hero or even be smart when Ladybug is around. He doesn't have to outsmart her, but it's treated like when he gets into costume his IQ just drops. I like what you said of the persona, but I slightly disagree when you said that a persona would remain the same. Because Chat Noir is what Adrian WANTS to be, right? But wants and personas do change over time. It doesn't have to be big, but I think sprinkling slightly more moments where Cat Noir calls out LadyBug could help both characters. And it doesn't have to be told to us, with simple and small shots of his facial expressions when LadyBug undermines him or when people underrate him could be enough for now (if they decided to go with something like that). It could show the development he received as Adrien of being less naive, while at the same time giving Marinette/Ladybug the flaws that people seem to want her to have (idk if she is or not cuz I haven't seen season 3 but people are calling her a mary sue so I think this could help). Adrien is smart, and I think only a minority of fans are saying he isn't, I think what most people are bothered by is that he can never have a moment in the show where he seems like an equal to LadyBug. He doesn't have to be treated like the co-protagonist to show this, but It's sad to most people to see that to make LB better, CN has to be worse. Which doesn't look well when you say this show is supposed to empower girls, it's kind of like saying "girls can only be smart when boys are dumb" when we can be smart when boys are smart too. Do I think this is on purpose?? NO. MLB is a good show for girls and it shows but if the creator isn't careful it could come off that way. Sorry for how long this is

[@JLBflix]

Miraculous operates on Sailor Moon logic. THERE. The shortest and simplest answer. Which doesn't make it much less ridiculous, that I'll grant you.

[@mad3739]

That's why I prefer Cardcaptor Sakura. At least that girl's show treated its male character better along with the side cast.

[@Aki-gb8gm]

But Adrien Was supposed to be Mari's equal while Tuxedo Mask wasnt :|

[@JLBflix]

I meant as far as identity... Should've been more explicit.

[@mad3739]

@@Aki-gb8gm they're giving him the same treatment as tuxedo mask which sucks

[@NinjaFlibble]

not necessarily true. Talking at least about the first season, the 90s anime has actual character development for more than just Usagi and Mamoru that the manga (and Crystal) lack. I can't stand the manga/Crystal because of how flat the characters feel. You see this development most notably in Nephrite and his story with Naru. I still shed tears when he dies. They also did a great job developing the relationship between Usagi and Seiya in the fifth season to the point that that seems like a more realistic pairing. (as opposed to what feels like it amounts to "we should love each other because we did in a previous life")

[@princess_azula4012]

Why doesn't this man have more subscribers

[@issakitungano3341]

Yea

[@whynot6266]

Because KZbin hates good content!

[@kylewilson2819]

Sorry, but I vehemently disagree. Others in this thread have given specific examples of how Adrien gets mistreated by the writing, so I won’t go into specifics. But the way he’s treated by Thomas is horrible from a writing standpoint (I graduated with a degree in communications and creative writing). Adrien and Marinette (Or ladybug and chat noir) are not a duo. Or at least they don’t behave like one. Ladybug does the hard work and is ALWAYS the one to save the day. Chat does nothing but take hits and use his cataclysm according to how LB tells him to, something ANYONE could do. She even admits as much when Adrien becomes Aspac. The problem is not with Adrien himself like you claim in this video. He isn’t stupid when compared to his peers and his character development is probably one of the better ones of the show (Although it’s still woefully poor). The problem is and remains that Thomas writes Marinette/Ladybug to be a perfect role model who can do no wrong and writes Adrien/Chat Noir to be a burden/comic relief. Compare this to the Harry Potter trio. Yes, all three had their respective roles, but all three had their moments where they carried the day when the others couldn’t. -Ron uses his skills as a chess player to send Harry ahead to the Philosopher’s Stone at great personal risk, and shows himself to be a capable fighter. However, he’s not very bright and isn’t the most articulate person. -Hermione is the brains and always has a solution to a logical problem. Yet when confronted with an adaptable/evolving situation that requires more than book smarts, she struggles to cope. -Harry is easily the most skilled duelist of the trio and has saved the day the most and accomplished more daring feats. Yet, he’s a jack-of-all-trades and has his weaknesses. He is an adequate wizard with no special abilities beyond his patronus and ability to fly a broom so well. He also cannot master legilimancy, and is horrible at potions. All three have their respective strengths and weaknesses. Now let’s look at CN and LB: LB: Smart, strategist, excellent fighter, capable commander, holder of the miraculous box, always finishes the fights. Weaknesses: Stalker? CN: Capable fighter against weaker opponents, muscle of the team, above average intelligence but requires instruction, clear subordinate to LB. Weaknesses: Cannot win fights on his own, brash, headstrong, rushes into danger with no plan, needs to be rescued all the time, not a commander, no substantial strategic intelligence. As you can see, LB is the clear “Leader” and CN is relegated to the backdrop.

[@CookiesAreNoice]

👏🏾🙌🏾

[@queenalliyah]

yeah they claim the two of them are a "duo" but it seems like Chat Noir is more of a sidekick than a partner.Chat Noir is extremely smart(since he's adrien,and adrien has amazing grades),he's extremely strong(wiped out the entire world with one blow) and he's super athletic.He has the potential to be the leader but is so in love with Ladybug he just does whatever he's told to do by her and doesnt do anything unless instructed to.He's just like a puppet to her.nothing more than something she can order around.But if he stood his ground and actually dominated for once he could prove to be better than her.And please,the way she de-evilizes akumas?She de evilizes them but when she sends them back out,They go back to Hawkmoth and he still has the capability of akumatizing because of it.But Chat Noir could actually cataclysm the akuma,killing it.If he did that in the episodes then Hawkmoth wouldnt have any akumas to akumatize with therefore they win.They just drag and dumb Chat Noir down so he doesnt outshine Ladybug,They put her on a pedestal among others and make everything about her even tho chat noir has all the potential in the world to be better than her or to atleast be at the same level

[@plot8503]

I absolutely agree Just one thing: It's Aspik not Aspac

[@fieryicymilkman6098]

@@queenalliyah Hawk moth grows akumas so it wouldn't matter but i agree with you. There should be a ep where ladybug is on a field trip or something and cat noir has to do everything himself. He learns that he should think through situations, not just rush through them and learn how to use cataclysm better. At the end he should use cataclysm to destroy the akuma.Also most of the time they don't need miraculous ladybug to fix everything when they could do it on their own so cat noir should fix any damage himself by hand. Ladybug comes back and realized how much cat noir can do by himself and be impress. cat noir realized how much he can do and they both can develop :D

[@ieatedsoapbutno8491]

I just want cat noir/Adrien to be more equal to Ladybug and I also want him to have more screen time.

[@issakitungano3341]

Yeahbutno we all wish that

[@quietopinion9637]

Let him have EQUAL screentime not more idiot

[@karendelcastillomartinez5148]

I just realized that the only episodes where chat / adrien were protagonists were 2 ONLY (episodes where they focused more on him than on ladybug) were in season 1 with Simon Says and in season 3 with Chat Blanc. And Thomas says that he has enough prominence? ¿What?

[@fatherdog346]

you forgot felix. marinette/ladybug only had like 5 minutes of screen time in that episode

[@karendelcastillomartinez5148]

@@fatherdog346 Yes, but I feel that episode was more for Felix, they wanted to introduce that character and obviously he had to focus on Adrien. but I do not think they did, it was more to introduce Felix as I said

[@taniyan7322]

Then there was 'lies', one of my favourite episodes. I'd love to have more of adrien's pov

[@LyxiLynnn]

Ladybug for 2 years : I'll never like you cat! You have to find someone else! Ryuko: Chat: :) Ladybug: >:(

[@user-hi3jr2sc6z]

I felt so bad when they swapped miraculous, adrien was portrayed as du m b, and mari literally knew everything about chat noirs abilities, Id like to see more qdrien pov’s and marinette actually STRUGGLE LIKE A 14 YEAR OLD, and now she’s a mf guardian like HUH???

[@misskimmy223]

I think she is a guardian cause master fu already knows adrien struggles so for him to keep them safe its gonna be hard and he kinda has better friendship with ladybug than chat noire

[@NinjaFlibble]

There weren't a lot of other options in the moment, honestly

[@hellogoodbye8620]

I thank you for finally not just ranting about Miraculous and saying that “it’s trash”. You truly bring out both sides of the argument, and I thank you for that. Many other videos I’ve watched have focused only on the negative things about the show, but you are able to paint it in both colours, which have is something most people don’t do. What I’m trying to say is, you are excellent at explaining things fairly. Keep it up, I am very exited to see more of your videos ^^

[@SpiritKitten]

I agree with you on Adrian/Chat Noir, it's why he remains my favorite character in this show and how I kind of wish he was the main focus of the story instead of Marinette! Marinette on the other hand, I feel does not change and just when the show shows that she has, the next episode or season sends her right back to square 1, always clumsy, over exaggerating situations, jumping to conclusions, and being too cowardly around Adrian (especially at the end of Season 2 when she kissed him! do people just forget that moment!?) I 'm hoping (fingers crossed) hoping for some consistent growth with her character now that she realizes Adrian is "Unavailable" and she begins to mature like her Ladybug counterpart. She can still be a little clumsy but don't make her spineless anymore!

[@2sleepy2talk]

at the end of the ep Siren, season 2, Master Fu comes in Adrien's house as his "new Chinese teacher" obviously there to talk to him more about the superhero stuff, that would have been an awesome thing to sometimes cut to a scene where master Fu is tutoring Adrien about something we maybe don't know so we could see more of him, but instead, after that they completely left that like it was never there.

[@Karinegodbey]

i think alya already knows their identities Because remember that one episode when nino had a crush on marinette and she and nino had an earpiece on they could hear everything! so when they were locked in the cage together they could have heard the transform that was the zoo episode

[@90lancaster]

Yes they could if they were still wearing the earpiece hear Adrien talking to Plagg - even if Plaggs part of the conversation wouldn't carry & the call for the Transformation, but I would guess they'd ended the call before then.

[@Karinegodbey]

90 Lancaster true

[@Cheetahgirl_Studios]

Lol imagine when the reveal happens. Marinette: Alya I am so SO sorry that I had to lie to you! I was just scared that if you knew I was Ladybug then Hawk Moth was going to target you and if you got hurt then I never would’ve forgiven myself and- Alya: Um, I KINDA always knew. Marinette: Wha-?! YOU KNEW?! Alya: Yeah, ever since the Zoo Incident. You forgot to turn off your earpiece. Marinette: Oops. Alya: Plus you’re always late for class. You always need to use the bathroom whenever an akuma attacks. Although I have to say, I’m flattered. Marinette: Why? Alya: You trusted me with a Miraculous, remember? Oh, and Nino knows too. Marinette: SERIOUSLY?!

[@90lancaster]

@@Cheetahgirl_Studios Amusingly I was wondering about the whole earpiece thing not long ago too- too as you are right if they didn't switch their phones off before transforming then Nino would have heard "Plagg : Claws Out" & Alya would have heard "Tikki ; Spots On". But it's possible Alya ended the call herself- or they both did as Marinette ran into the Bushes. Alya might have been swapping her phone to video mode perhaps and so ended the call anyway - which suggests if anyone is going to hear it's Nino. If anyone knows already and it's not Nino & Alya then other candidates might be Alix, Miss Bustier, & Sabine Cheng.... heck even Gabriel may suspect her at least Perhaps that is why they bonded & part of what they spoke for - during that hour or two in the cage ? One other thing though - Miraculous Ladybugs put things back where they belong- so did that drop the Panthers in with Nino & Alya ? (just kidding)

[@Karinegodbey]

Cheetahgirl Studios 😂😂

[@rossstrickland8831]

I think Cat Noir/Adrein would be interesting/challenging to write as he isn't a typical teenage boy, being isolated his whole life, having so many responibilities on his plate, and a deep sadness from his moms death/dissappearance. He has said some powerful things such as "Nobody is useless" (very insightful for a 15 year old kid) It would be great if they explored how say, the joy and discipline of music as helped him devlope, or fencing, or even how the soul crushing isolation has effected his development. I find it hard to imagine not really playing or having friends growing up, or being the son of a rich and famous fashion designer, or being home schooled. There is just so many things that are not typical of his character. I guess thats what makes him a mystery? I find myself asking is that how I would be in his situation? Is that how I would react upon being given a miraculous with his back ground?

[@chloepedraza280]

I never thought of it that way, it makes sense. But still I would like more from his character

[@angiecakes04]

I never saw him as dumb or stupid either I know he's smart but its just how he was written though and I do know that he uses his hero Cat Noir to escape from his life and all but like I said its how he was written infact after S3 fans starting liking Cat Noir more

[@KagenoMugen444]

I do agree, and just to add on you can go back to the earlier episodes and see that Cat Noir was both skilled, and very intellagent, despite him not being all that serious at times. So why is it that now it's almost like he can't do anything without Ladybug, when it's more then clear he can?

[@rymaoutofstock]

Sometimes I forget that Chatnoir is Adrien. You know, when he's making those jokes and flirting with Ladybug I can't imagine Adrien doing this idk why lol

[@bluecario]

"cat noir is misunderstood." Aren't all black cats?

[@Cherry_Blossom.-.]

This actually makes sense , but something bothers me more when adrien was sneaking through the vault behind his mothers painting , THE PEACOCK MIRACULOUS WAS RIGHT THERE! I DONT KNOW HOW HE DINT NOTICE IT!!

[@bella-zt7oz]

Arshiya Ravindra SAME I WAS SCREAMING “PLAGG LOOK ITS YOUR LOST BEST FRIEND-“

[@nabi_core]

He didn't know what it was. Since he was never included with talking with Master Fu, he doesn't know what might be Miraculous and what is not one.

[@kabsageigj8941]

@@nabi_core You do know Marinette would have been in the same boat at this point right?

[@coldbutsweet9748]

@@nabi_core But Plagg was here

[@nabi_core]

@@coldbutsweet9748 But literally anything could be a miraculous. How would he know? Edit: Plagg didn't say anything

[@nabi_core]

When the background characters get more character development

[@jamesdaly7440]

"He has romanticised being a hero because it lets him forget, and so the person he loves can never know who he truly is" kinda sad.

[@aileen_7292]

I actually really love the points you made here and I really do think their vital to the interpretation of Adrien/Chat’s character

[@myfriendsaremypower]

I can greatly agree with this

[@rosem.gottschalk9528]

... yeah a lot of things missing. People probably like him for being pretty but honestly I have to agree it’s the same for me for his charm and such. But we need more things.

[@Toasty2o0]

I do feel like Adrian does have a lot of pain but he keeps working through it so when he's chat he acts funny so he makes people laugh and chat flirts with ladybug because she really is his only friend that's pretty close to him yes they don't know a lot about each other but there bond is very strong so that is why he is well we could say clingy because he dosent want to lose someone who's bond is so strong with

[@leahsandler5412]

If the writers focused more on Adrien, didn't overpower Ladybug so much, and took out Marinette's stalker behavior I would like Marinette more and the show would've been even better

[@quietopinion9637]

nah I still like that Mari's OP

[@강지원-d1u]

Season 4 better give Adrien/Cn the attention he deserves. He has the most depth out of all of the other characters by FAR and his past and future REQUIRES attention and proper portraying

[@quietopinion9637]

not all the attention god stop making Adrien seem like the more important character when they balance each other out. Your blatent sexism is showing

[@4ngiel0ver]

The two reasons Alya could realise Carapse was Nino was because of Nino using "Dude" (i think referring to adrien? i forget) and also THE FACT THE MAN WASNT EVEN WAERING A MASK LIKE ALL THE OTHER MIRACULOUS COSTUMES GIVE THE HEROS SOMETHING TO CONCEAL THEIR FACE IN SOME CAPACITY BUT NINO JUST GETS A HOOD-

[@ambersunshine1847]

I need more of Adrien and his past specially his mother. We know that she was an actress and disappeared because of peacock miraculous but we need more.

[@quietopinion9637]

Then show Marinette's past with Chloe. It's got to be equal footing remember?

[@ambersunshine1847]

@@quietopinion9637 marinette and Chloe more likely had an insult competition in the past but yeah

[@arithelovely3153]

@@quietopinion9637 Marinette doesnt really have a sad life ,Like adrien, They already showed chloe's past

[@jackthelucario]

My main issues with Adrien is that his development can be done or undone depending on the episode. Like some episodes, he’s really gotten better and it shows. But other times, he just reverts back to his old self without reason.

[@noobenny]

Great video! You’ve really opened my mind to the other side of the argument. Thanks! So glad I’m an early subscriber, you definitely deserve more!❤️🖤❤️

[@tulip135]

I think the problem lies with how he’s portrayed as useless as Cat Noir...it’s always Ladybug “saving the day” and taking most of the credit even though their miraculous are based off of the balanced yin and yang concept. She even viewed him as a burden a lot of the time (but hopefully this has changed after Chat Blanc).

[@themattbat999]

I think you are correct. I picked up on him using Chat Noir as an escape pretty early on. It's an opportunity he jumped on very quick because he wants to be someone else.

[@interlegere5603]

The thing is I agree with a lot of your points the problem is they never use any of these points that you mentioned within the storytelling itself.

[@fv_ana]

I just realised something! Adrien is mature and when he is cat noir he is not. Marinette is immature and when she is ladybug she is not.

[@basicwirdo736]

I am just going to point out one thing I find interesting. When people are talking about Ying and Yang, I also believe/believed that because they are supposed to be Ying and Yang, they should be treated equal. And I still believe that. But I found this comment by Thomas saying: “ “Power” doesn’t mean anything. (...) If you combine them you can make a wish. “Powerful” as such doesn’t mean anything”. Yeah... so It seems the Essens of the miraculous are none existent. I wonder why Adrien got to keep his Kwami, instead of him just getting it from LB as everyone else. (I was sarcastic at the last part)

[@greenrangeralex]

I completely disagree but respect your point of view

[@SmartyPantsYT]

Thanks! It's great to have these discussions and hear different peoples' point of view in a positive way

[@issakitungano3341]

Smarty Pants yeah

[@chloe4521]

I never thought Adrien was stupid (expect when he could tell it was kagami in oni-chan but he doesn’t know ladybugs identity 😂) but in all honesty I really want other characters not just Adrien to get more screen time

[@DigiDestined13]

Everyone: "Oh, why can't everyone figure out who the heroes are?!" Me: "I don't know, why can't people figure out Clark Kent is Superman, or that Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson are Batman and Robin?" Seriously, people complain way too much about common superhero tropes that have been around since the dawn of time.

[@muni225]

"He's stupid" IM DYING LOL

[@Orangeyouglad870]

It’s sad because despite being written out of usefulness in recent stories he has always been the best character

[@reese_enee]

Chat noir definitely has character development. Just look at how more senseer (I cant spell) his flirty has gotten. Not to mention he has been noticing kagami and ryuko. He also is never jealous and gets mad really in season 3. He had also not been grinning and giving suggestive signs when alone with LB or in close contact. Hes more honest and tells his feelings. He acts even more like a friend and is always there for LB. Of course he was in season 1 but now even more so in 3.

[@ThrillingDuck]

Very sharp video. Also for anyone who gets hung up on Marinette and Adrien not recognizing each other in hero form in universe, in addition to this sort of being a classic suspension of disbelief for the sake of the show's very premise, keep in mind that even THE FANDOM wasn't 100% positive that Gabriel Agreste was Hawk Moth until it was deliberately revealed. It seemed really really likely, and even obvious, but because season 1 went out of its way to not explicitly show that, there was still room for doubt. I actually recall a fan theory which posited that Gabriel couldn't be Hawk Moth because Hawk Moth's teeth were more perfect than Gabriel's lol. The point is, if fans in the real world couldn't be 100% sure of Hawk Moth's identity before Astruc's reveal then it's not THAT hard to believe Adrien and Marinette can't figure each other out. Don't get me wrong, it IS a little ridiculous, but I can kinda see it. Would REALLY help if their magical girl transformations would change their hair color at least.

[@enurii]

I’m just glad that in the New York special they finally said that the suits came with a magical glamour to hide the identities

[@thatonepotato276]

I wish that Chat Noir would maybe drop the ladybug crush given how long it has been. Though for me the idea of the two mains in a relationship is a bad taste in my mouth at this point, especially since Adrien has shown no love for Marinette. I'm not counting chat blanc. It's an alternative timeline and he wanted her because she was ladybug

[@thebeast8204]

Great video. It has some great points. My thoughts are similar to Adrian/Chat Noir to an extent. I do believe that Chat Noir is Adrian's escape from his harsh life. An issue in the series is miraculous's. Ladybug and Chat Noirs miraculous's are supposed to be stronger than the others, yet in regard to the others, Chat Nori's is severely lacking. My example is Cataclysm being the power to destroy anything Chat Noir touches only being used for destroying akumatized objects and the occasional convenient wall, floor, or building once then he needs to recharge to do so again. Ladybug though can, of course, use lucky charm the same as cataclysm one-time use yet she can infinitely purify Akuma. Viperine can infinitely go back 5 min in time and Bonix is just insane literal time manipulation. Hawkmoth can even infinitely create supervillains with vast arrays of abilities. All we see is Chat Noir using his ability to destroy objects we know for a fact can be broken with little to no effort by the other miraculous heroes. Not to mention Sentimonsters aren't even destroyed by a cataclysm. Adrian/Chat Noir as the second strongest miraculous holder needs some form of development. Because as of now Chat Noir as sad as it is to say, is just another part-time miraculous welder, with the exception of keeping his miraculous once the villain has been dealt with. Any other hero could fill in for him power-wise. He is great at supporting Ladybug emotionally which makes me really want to see him do something amazing sadly he never doses, due to him always being the comic relief, punchline, or "dismissal". This show is truly amazing, hopefully, we can see Chat Noir do more in season four. ( Not going to lie. It felt really nice to type this out and get it off my mind.)

[@issakitungano3341]

The Beast Yeah I know it feels

[@miss_chelles1338]

You know what, I think you hit the nail on the head on why people think cat Noir is underrated. he seems to be easily replaceable. Which is what a lot of people don't like.

[@queenalliyah]

Honestly,i dont think Chat Noir would be a good character without Adrien.Chat noir is adrien's escape from his suffering life and he holds deep meaning to be a hero,being relatable to other teenagers because teenagers at some point feel controlled to be perfect by their parents,Chat Noir/Chat Blanc (honestly they're the same person anyway) wiped out the entire human race and the world with ONE hit.the only reason he doesnt show his powers to such an extent as the others is because he wasnt told to do so by Ladybug.He uses his cataclysm when Ladybug tells him to.Honestly thats the only major flaw i see in him.He acts way too dependant on Ladybug when he can do just fine on his own

[@OpticalSorcerer]

I remember hearing that Thomas Astruc said that Marinette and Adrien could never be akumatized because Marinette was too positive and Adrien was used to disappointment. I wish he had stuck to that--though I do love Chat Blanc.

[@froggiebcg]

Adrien has the most personality in this entire show. He developed a lot, he went from being very unsure to very brave. He'll always be my favorite character.

[@issakitungano3341]

Dip Shit he was alway brave

[@elizabethgoree3891]

I think your onto something. And I have been saying for what feels like years that 1 the reason that other characters don't figure out is because for us as viewers that are quite literally view almost everything it is obvious and for then as characters it is not. Plus the idea that your best friend could be a superhero is a little weird. And 2 another reason they don't figure it out is because of the magic of the miraculous themself. When they put on the suit they are indestructible and have other powers which haven't fully been explained so it is plausible that the miraculous cause an air disbelief per say.

[@AnimationStation3000]

I don't think Adrien/Cat is written poorly, but treated poorly by the writing Adrien very smart, but is dumbed to suit the plot, in episodes like Reflektdoll, Ladybug treats him horribly and diminishes him and makes him apologize and make him feel like he's worthless and nothing without her. The constantly reinforces how useless Cat Noir is and that Ladybug is the only hero needed. Ladybug says she couldn't be Ladybug w/o Cat and that he's very important to her, then the next episode she diminishes him and treats him like trash. So, yes Adrien/Cat is done dirty by the writing.

[@quietopinion9637]

Could say the same with Marinette but do you see me crying daily about it? No because I wait and see how they develop the characters. Marinette is honestly treated far worse by the fans, creators and honestly Chat Noirs fans are toxic asf and they need to stop painting Marinette in a bad light to make your white pretty boy feel superior. It's disturbing and honestly quite sexist ugh

[@AnimationStation3000]

@@quietopinion9637 I don't cry about it daily, or at all no need for the mockery and toxic comments. I'm saying Adrien deserves better than to be a punching bag then thrown aside. Ladybug get all the spotlight and the credit. We get to know so much about her, but about Adrien? I don't believe Adrien is better than Marinette. Sure you could say the writing in season 3 made Marinette's personality jump off a cliff. There's no need for you to assume the worst of me because I don't talk only about Marinette. I'm not calling you sexist. Besides Adrien/CN may be my favorite male character by Alya/RR is my favorite character overall. So do us a favor and take your toxic complaining elsewhere.

[@myz1c835]

I like adrien more than marinette because of his personality, poor guy has went tru a lot

[@quietopinion9637]

I prefer Mari cuz she actually takes her job seriously

[@ulyssesbutterfly6697]

0:00 - 2:20 Smarty Pants, THANK YOU.

[@ulyssesbutterfly6697]

Actually, thank you for this whole video

[@Maxusdadream]

I know Im late but this a perfect analysis of Adrien and his position in the show. I would like to add that most of the time we only see Adrien when the other characters are allowed to see him which makes a lot pf sense seeing that narrative wise that the limits of his life. If were to see more of his life it would be messy as the writer swould have to show the more neglectful side of his life. Could even be considered borderline abuse maybe. So I would rather enjoy the moments Adrien enjoys his life rather than when he’s depressed. People shouldn’t hassle Astruc about the show as much as they do about Adrien. He has a capable side and sometimes we just have to enjoy the ride with Chat and Adrien. They are the same person experiencing the world in a dichotomy, limitless freedom and limited structure. I could see the next season giving him more screen time considering Kagami’s role in his storyline in allowing him to be out of the house more with a trusted person in Gabriel’s circle.

[@coffee6843]

I agree with you a lot. Cat Noir never recieves ANY credit after Ladybug "saves the day". I personally do not like Ladybug/Marinette. Other characters get more development but Adrien gets less development than he deserves. Honestly, I have a problem with the show. I hate how Ladybug gets more attention than Cat Noir. He's always portrayed as "useless" and Ladybug is the one who "does everything". They're supposed to be a team but Ladybug gets all the credit and even a blog about her. Honestly, Adrien/Cat Noir deserves so much more attention than Mary Sue Dupein Cheng.

[@MrRmcbigboss]

I think miraculous is fantastic for what it is, astrucs content is good and I like how he dosnt conform to fan pressure, I love classic and philosophical novels if the writer is trying to show us a message over the course of its work, then we will have to wait for it. Roll on the next special and season 4!

[@shadowmarauder6033]

I have an idea for adrien/cat noir and plagg for season 4: In the season’s beginning a new mysterious anti-hero character appears: he mostly appears at night; fights both supervillains AND normal criminals, and doesn’t hold back when fighting, with many of the normal criminals left with visible scars or even broken bones. Ladybug and Cat noir would be very weary of him, but Cat noir would fell a strange familiarity with the person. Later on in the season, the person would be revealed as the 1st Cat noir, who had used his miraculous and the ladybug’s to wish for the power to protect the world without the miraculous. However, it came with 2 cost: he became a cat-human hybrid, and being too late to save his village from attackers. He would be looking for revenge on Plagg for not telling him about the consequences of the wish. However, later episodes would show that he’s not evil: he’s really a kind person, angry and depressed at the friend who had betrayed him in the past. As time passed, he would actually become great friends with Adrien(both as himself and in a human disguise) and Marinette. When he finds out Adrien’s secret, he becomes divided in his goal for revenge. In the end, he helps the heroes defeat hawkmoth and makes up with Plagg, so he decides to go around the world to do as he wished: to protect from evil. I think this could be an awesome way to develop both Adrien and Plagg: Adrien now has to deal with the truth that his good friend basically dumped a past friend, and Plagg finally realizes his actions can do not only physical damage, but also emotional and psychological.

[@alicey.8243]

Sounds like it would be an awesome story! Although, it isn't very likely that any episode, like this, would happen, I hope someone will end up making a good fan-comic! :D

[@shadowmarauder6033]

Derpy Turtle and Nerdy Puppy thanks for your opinion! I am always thinking of what direction a show could go or what crossovers they could do, so as to improve it or make it even better, so a case of a “villain with a hero past” idea was great to imagine

[@victoriaescobedo5458]

Y'know, you made alsome very good points of why Adrien becomes more loose when he's chat noir. but I think the problem that had some of us complain about him not getting the spotlight is that we never get to see him what he would do and how he would succeed when he has to necessarily fight without ladybug. I mean, he was beaten down by weredad due to his size and strength, and to alyas akumatized little sisters due to their large numbers, and then to the fake chat noir due to a surprise attack, and these are some of the fights that he had to fight alone that I can think of without rewatching the show and any content except for fanfics and the new York special for over a year.

[@bewilderedberner]

One thing, I think it's been partially confirmed that the reason nobody recognised Marinette as Ladybug or Adrien as Chat Noir is because of the fact that the suits they wear are magic. I'm not sure if this is true, but I do think that's part of the reason, so it would make sense as to why someone would be considered smart for figuring out who they are.

[@moonie6801]

What a great perspective! I never thought that about Cat Noir before. Thanks for the video!

[@kalebdee790]

All I really want is for chat noir to actually be competent with or with out ladybug instead of him be not much more then ladybugs fall guy or and tool at her disposal. And on that note one episode where chat is put in the spotlight and is able to shine as a hero would be amazing just one.

[@quietopinion9637]

HE is literally useless without her what's wrong with that? Do you not like that women can save men all the time? I like that the roles are reversed because it shows how different they are. Chat Noir is Literally lazy like Plagg doensn't even care if someone is akumatized all for his lady. Just no respect from me.

[@joannadsouza1927]

I would not say Adrien doesn't get character development but I definitely dislike the way CN is shown during Akuma attacks as if he is completely unneeded and only messes up. Like stormy weather we see how CN has night vision and leads LB to the roof. We see him running extremely fast (like running not using his banton to jump) and not tripping or anything. So we can definitely conclude that he has speed and agility. Yet in the future episodes it often seems that they forget about that.

[@onelazybi-2814]

I also think how he acts as Cat Noir is a little of his true personality bc you can see some times he jokes and messes around as Adrien bt he can't be like that bc of his Dad.

[@anikareddy3963]

i always felt like adrien/cat noir was under appreciated. a lot of the time he’s treated as a sidekick rather than a partner, especially in the first season. he’s also had the most difficult life out of everyone with the loss of his mother, controlling father, and constant rejection. he’s also by far the nicest character on the show. i’ve been noticing marinette starting to be really selfish and she’s also caused some akumatizations. she’s even called people useless which isn’t something you do no matter how much you hate the person. adrien isn’t naive he tries to see the good in everyone like chloe and lila. To add on it’s also interesting bc adrien has the most interesting and dark past/family and the show only gives like a few scenes and 1 episode where they highlight it. i want to see more of his past and more of his family. maybe a background episode too of how hawk moth even found his miraculous. maybe some scenes with his mother

[@quietopinion9637]

nope lol

[@grim7872]

the reason people call Adrien stupid isn't because of the identities, it is because they make him stupid compared to ladybug, him and ladybug are supposed to be partners, not batman and robin. I do not like how they always make Adrien reliant on ladybug, whereas ladybug doesn't always need cat noir. I get that ladybug is the best miraculous wielder, but they should not bring down cat noir to lift ladybug up.

[@ericshorter9792]

I agree with this a 100 percent

[@glitteryrosie2842]

tbh if i was in miraculous ladybug and i lost memories about watching the show i wouldnt notice their identities anyway i would just be a bit suspicious and end up stalking both of the and be like "OMG its u guys blablabla" beacause they act so different then their real side..

[@vertilgo_monster9332]

Don’t like we don’t see more of adrien cause it’s called ladybug and cat-noir and it’s mainly focussed on ladybug

[@plot8503]

Yes mainly focused but that doesn't mean that it needs to be focused *only* on Ladybug

[@misskimmy223]

@@plot8503its not only focused on ladybug cause then there wouldn't be any scenes except for ladybug so think before saying

[@plot8503]

@@misskimmy223 what I meant is that we *manly* follow the show through Marinette/Ladybug eyes, I know there are scenes about Chloe, Adrien and many more characters, of course there are, but I would like to see more episodes focused on Adrien/Chat Noir Sorry if I didn't explained myself very well

[@quietopinion9637]

@@plot8503 I'd like to see more of him in a negative light as Adrien because atm he's always the one who's in the right, so I can't wait for confident Mari to challenge him one day :))

[@VJ-dj5jk]

Gotta say Adrain was probably my favorite character,I really wish their was more balance in Ladybug and him.Like for me,I found Adrain a more interesting character than Marinette,wished he got more story roles :(

[@d-actionfunkopops3465]

Well I do agree Thomas needs to chill but it's mainly the fans that started this whole war

[@Tomohiko_Tatsuno]

Situational Irony: when something is known by the viewer thats is in known to the characters. It is literally a writing tool. Also Adrien has the Flat Character Arc, he effects those around him rather than being effecting them.

[@user-hi3jr2sc6z]

Also feel bad because the other day I rewatched many episodes and I SKIPPED THE ENTIRE BATTLEs BC WE KNOW HOW IT WORKS, made me feel bad for just skipping parts that probably took HOURS, WEEKS, or years to develop, and animate, it is really a problem, they really need to get over this episode “formula” its so bad.

[@hallerumm1493]

adrein/cat noir's back must hurt from carrying the entire show

[@quietopinion9637]

Ew we don't stan character slander

[@hallerumm1493]

@@quietopinion9637 “character slander” what you talking about 😐🧍🏽‍♀️

[@quietopinion9637]

@@hallerumm1493 The fact that you only think Chat Noir carries the show just proves how badly they treat the other characters in comparison

[@jamar3905]

Adrien might not know who Ladybug is (despite her being the love of his life) because he subconsciously doesn’t want too. He knows he shouldn’t know who ladybug is. Or maybe the miraculous holders have something magical keeping everyone else from notice the obvious voice similarities, and hair.

[@arithelovely3153]

Hm, Then why did adrien find out that marinette is ladybug a bunch of times

[@raeliaki]

I feel like the writers have kinda forgotten that Adrien is just as important as Marinette, they started as equals in a partnership, only being able to rely on each other, but then master fu gets the book and translates it and there was a whole thing about ladybug not trusting chat with who Fu was and that was addressed in one ep, but completely forgotten after. The power balance in their relationship has shifted so far into Ladybugs corner its not even funny anymore. She is able to run off and know all the identities of every hero in Paris, even becoming the guardian of the miraculous, while chat is still just chat. He doesn't get any new responsibilities or knowledge he is just expected to go along with it all and its infuriating! Why should Marinette be dumped with all this major responsibility? Why not balance the two out like in the first season? Where they are relying on each other to save the day instead of Marinette being pushed to stand by herself above everyone. If the creators are gonna go ham on how the bug and cat miraculous are literally yin and yang treat them as such! Don't just use pretty symbolism for a little bit then ditch it when the plot changes! It makes me so mad how they make it a thing to point out how chat is JUST AS IMPORTANT as Ladybug, Ladybug herself mentioning it multiple times, and then leave him on the wayside for pointless relationship drama for the viewers and comic relief. Please bear in mind its been a while since I've actually watched the show so my info may not be entirety accurate since im going off what I remember, so my opinions may be a bit skewiffed if I've gotten some info wrong.

[@artslife4424]

I agree with your points, but I think he's oblivious cuz he can't tell Marinette is in love with him

[@taniyan7322]

Shes given too many mixed signals tho, and even said that she isnt interested in him in that way when he found out about the photographs Combine that with his age and sheltered upbringing - i dont blame adrien for not realising and dont think its dumb that he doesnt

[@j-5105]

What we people need to understand is exactly what you have said in this video Smarty Pants. Maybe Thomas should rethink and make Cat Noir a hero for one or two episodes. It will help him understand the pressure LB is facing, and also it would help character arc development. I personally am more attached to Cat Noir after understanding him more and more by watching the episodes. He is an abused and conflicted teenager, whose life was totally controlled by his father and has had no freedom until Plagg showed up. Why does him being damaged cause him to not get any development. I feel pity for him. He deserves more than this

[@lella3108]

I love how well you explained his character but i still think chat noir could have been written even a slight bit better, hopefully adriens developement will start to affect chat noir and later on in the show as marinette and adrien develope there'll be like this kind of realisation where it just hits them that marinette kind of likes chat noir and adrien starts to acknowledge the fact that he might like marinette as more than "just a friend".

[@taniyan7322]

This aged well