In Defense of DOOM 2's City Levels

[@GermanPeter]

The idea for this video had actually been floating around since 2018, believe it or not. That's how dedicated I am to these levels! *Edit:* I find it interesting how many comments I get that are along the lines of "Errmm no ackshually these maps have ALWAYS sucked and are NEVER good!!!" Like jeez dude maybe add some positivity to your life. I quite literally stated several times that these maps have their flaws, the point of the video was just to highlight that they also have positive aspects that get overlooked because people have such an unreasonable amount of hate for them. If you're just looking for flaws, you'll find them.

[@Treblaine]

(trailer guy voice) "five years in the making!"

[@anticorn6635]

I feel like with just a bit more detail the city levels could have looked more aesthetically pleasing. Which reminds me! Do you have those maps you made for them with a bit more detail up for download somewhere? I would love to play them!

[@DinnerForkTongue]

Wow, I'm perplexed you didn't mention _the_ city level in Classic Doom for comparison: Odyssey of Noises.

[@SwiftBlitz.]

never knew you made doom 2 content! wow!

[@DinnerForkTongue]

@@SwiftBlitz. Yep. I recommend his video on keys for doors vs switches.

[@fun-epersonnproductions4002]

Fun Fact: Almost all the levels of Doom 2 were made without a pre-set order. The level order was only later set, based mosty on individual level's difficulty. That's why hell levels don't look at all like they did in Doom 1 and some other levels set on earth seem to be kind of garish and hard to imagine as locations on earth.

[@Ducky-vl7mp]

Imo one of the biggest missed opportunities in Doom was making a cohesive story told through level design rather than just crafting random levels and throwing them together. Then again they only had 10 months to make Doom 2 and most of Doom 1 maps were made/finished in 3 months by Sandy.

[@quiver5756]

@@Ducky-vl7mp I mean... Doom 1 is the closest to that among the classic games. There's an actual thematic cohesion between episodes, rather than the mess of D2. First you start in the Phobos moon in the space ship hangar as it logically would be. The episode itself consist on tech bases with few satanic elements usually hide in the secrets, and the final level is the Phobos anomaly, a giant teleporter platform which shows the first sings of demonic corruption and abstraction. The second episode continues on the Deimos anomaly, the other side of the portal, and this time you can see the tech bases are corrupted and distorted by hell influence with satanic stuff everywhere. This epidose even shows the Tower of Babel being build slowly in the intermission screen, nice detail. And the final epidose is hell itself, with cathedrals and pure organic structures, and bits of human tech asimilated in the middle.

[@goldheartodyssey4486]

@@Ducky-vl7mp that is a big reason why 2016 is my favorite DOOM. It was the only one along with DOOM 3 to nail that.

[@PerfectSense77]

@@goldheartodyssey4486Doom Eternal definitely successfully tells a story through its level design. It’s all logical and perfectly cohesive with the story, with lots of variation to keep things fresh.

[@JasperFoxo]

@@PerfectSense77 It's far less interesting than 2016s in my opinion, the story in Doom Eternal has a lot of random places you go to. But doom 2016 keeps the story of you having to rip and tear your way through the facility to prevent olivia from opening a portal to hell, she does anyways. So you go to hell to kill them. Doom Eternal is, oh hey youre the same dude as the last game, oh btw you have a chainsaw and you just get thrown into hell on earth, nothing to link 2016 to Eternal, you just are teleported there. sure Doom Eternal is pretty good if you ignore the story, and so is 2016. In my opinion 2016 just has a better story than eternal. If you compare Eternal's story to 2016, you will probably also say its a lot more coherent than eternal. Sorry for the paragraph lol, it wasn't meant to be a rant. If i were to explain Eternal's story it would make this even longer.

[@discardedbiscuit5449]

I feel like a lot of kids were much more observant than me on this stuff, I kinda just took everything as is like "yeah that's a doom 2 level aright". Doom levels are like dreams, you can't really make sense of them, just experience them.

[@spineappletea]

many people say e2m8 is too small to be the tower of babel, but i prefer the idea that you're just at the very top of it and it's like this sandy courtyard area. but for the actual city levels, i enjoyed them for their gameplay rather than visuals (plus, it's not like they could've been all that detailed. even with how primitive it looks now, downtown is only about 30 sectors away from a visplane overflow at the tower with the red key). maybe playing the games dozens of times is a factor in it, but the maps weren't ever as confusing or difficult to navigate as many say they are.

[@Legally_John]

I never even considered E2M8 being the entire tower. It only the top always just made so much sense that's what I'd imagined from day 1.

[@boltstrikes429]

I think what's being pointed out is that the skybox has mountains that clearly reach over the supposed "tower of babel" which is supposed to be so massive it can reach heaven

[@illyay1337]

Yeah I always thought it was the top floor too.

[@animarthur5297]

Well, it's still weird, right? Doomguy SHOULD have encountered a lot of shit while making his way up to the top, but i guess the whole goddamn tower is empty

[@npc_blob1609]

This is forgetting that visplane limits are arbitrarily set by the programmers to enforce respecting technical constraints at the time.

[@0E1M1]

i feel so weird and alien when i have way more fun exploring city levels than the normal space military stuff, it's just so cool to see bigger areas and huge buildings that you can enter inside and get out and explore more.

[@tearfullink]

Like them or not, the city levels gave us one of the best tracks in doom 2

[@GermanPeter]

Which ones you mean?

[@sheldor6172]

@@GermanPeter sandy city was a pretty good song.

[@gibbonplays6111]

@@sheldor6172 i dont think 'the pit' classifies as a city level

[@evdestroy5304]

@@gibbonplays6111 Into Sandy's City is the name of the song

[@gibbonplays6111]

@@evdestroy5304 yeah, and that song is from a level called 'the pit'

[@NiGHTSnoob]

One thing about Duke 3D and Blood is that two year difference is actually a lot. It might not sound like much, but in the 90's two years might as well have been 10 or 12 today in terms of how fast graphical fidelity was progressing. Going from 50 polygons to 250 polygons is a hell of a lot more noticeable than going from 300 million to 301 million after all. Of course they look a lot more like real cities. The cities in Zelda Ocarina of Time and Sonic Adventure sure look a lot more like actual cities than the one in Wet-Dry World in Super Mario 64, and that was also a two year difference.

[@npc_blob1609]

It was probably more to do with what those games were aiming to achieve. Mario 64 is generally more abstract and the city in that level is only a small element of it, modeled by hand as level geometry without much if any bespoke textures or models from the art team.

[@CreativeUsernameHere-r1k]

Just sticking to fps games Quake-Half life jump is enough to show 2 years difference.

[@double-cheesemcqueeze6315]

​@user-un5xj1wl6p The jump from Wolf 3D to Doom alone shows this, too. Hell, look at Rise of the Triad vs Duke Nukem 3D.

[@Astfgl]

Graphics technology was advancing at an insane rate in the '90s, two years was an eternity compared to the glacial pace of development today. The Build engine used by Duke 3D and Blood stretched the limits of what could be done with a Doom-style game engine, and it was also made to play primarily on Pentium processors, when Doom was designed to be playable on a 486. The jump in technology between the two was huge and should not be understated.

[@alchemispark7751]

ive not played or watched doom 2 far enough to see city levels, but i find seeing how ordinary people live in fictional universes extremly interesting

[@amphimixis]

I played Doom 2's city levels for hours on end. In retrospect they've not aged well, but in 1994 they were mindblowing. I still appreciate their abstract design as Sandy Peterson, John Romero, and others decided that making levels based on how places looked in real life didn't make them fun to play.

[@doododaadoo8673]

The city levels are fiiine, it's just they're really open and their overall ugliness is kind-of a problem when you have to look at them for a decently big chunk of the game. EDIT: good points but I still think theyre just kinda blech to go through

[@JustinLesamiz]

Big chunk of the game? There's 32 levels and only 3 are city themed.

[@christopherthibeault7502]

Now, just to be fair, Map14 Inmost Dens resembles a shootout scene from a Spaghetti Western movie. It also looks like repurposed storm drains and reservoir channels that can get around the city without being actual streets; hell-spawn simply fortified the area. It may not necessarily be a place where citizens live (unless they're homeless or transients), but it does seem part of a city.

[@tacosunbirth]

People who say "the city levels in Doom 2 don't look like cities" have clearly never been to certain parts of the Midwestern states of the USA. I literally have been to places that look like "The Factory" level in Up-North Minnesota. Something people forget too is that Doom takes place in the Future. Judging by how buildings nowadays are lifeless gray cubes and how companies won't stop with minimalism, I think it was actually a very realistic depiction of the future of cities having brutalist architecture. Although I have never been to an ex-Soviet country, I have seen many pictures of places from that part of the world that look like Doom 2 city levels!!

[@alex91849]

Actually the cities in doom 2 are very reminiscent of current day detroit in almost every aspect.

[@MiroslavBaldzhiev]

Maybe not as dangerous as detroit

[@DrGiggleTouch67]

XD

[@Rountree1985]

Translation: “I’m a white guy who is scared of black people”

[@tacosunbirth]

YES! This is what I have been saying! Doom 2 City levels are genuinely becoming more realistic nowadays with how urban areas are becoming brutalist hellholes.

[@unduloid]

A lot cleaner, though.

[@luigitrollface]

the real place sandy petersen said he designed suburbs around was his house, one of the buildings is essentially a recreation of the first floor of his house

[@ludi1982]

As a Doom mapper with several years of experience, I loved seeing your additions to the vanilla maps! They're tasteful, and keep to the original style quite well. Would you consider releasing your edits in a wad? :^)

[@beltwaaay4006]

THIS! I wouldn't mind playing all DOOM 2 all over again with those additions 😂

[@gunzblazin6860]

Which maps have you made???

[@DeltaV287]

That big fight by the blue key on Suburbs was always one of my favorites. It's essentially the first slaughter fight and inspired SO many WADs to come.

[@juanausensi499]

Oh, yes! I still remember the first time i had that encounter. It was nuts.

[@AlysZara]

That fight was pure blissful joy for me. I kept retrying it until I won undamaged

[@jmjanzen]

Just replayed Doom 2 recently, and was so surprised by this part. Somehow I always forget that the official games had some pretty high monster counts. I can NOT imagine playing this with just a keyboard though, like so many people did back in the 90s

[@DeltaV287]

@@jmjanzen hehe I’ve played keyboard only since the 90s. It’s kind of a stubborn nostalgia at this point.

[@sosafnow]

That’s one thing I feel like people and sometimes myself forget is using your imagination. Some of my favorite things about the Doom 1 and 2 and even some fanmade WADs is the creativity that went into maps to make them resemble certain object and areas of a world. While I do think some places in Doom 2, specifically the Suburbs and The Factory looking the least like what they say they are I can still vaguely make them out and fill in the blanks myself. Fan made remakes of Doom 2 have done wonders to make those thoughts and interpretations become a reality thanks to newer tech and the removal of limitations. Reading and responding to your tweets about the city levels always did make me wonder how come some people didn’t like them. And from looking at the comments it’s quite clear it’s from the limitations of Doom 2. With most textures being reused from Doom 1 and any other texture vaguely resembling a building or house it’s pretty clear that many people especially those probably, heck, more than likely have played games like Duke Nukem 3D or even games from later generations that have had far more detailed interpretations of cities and houses to go off of due to advancements in technology. I still personally think that some of the levels that are still city levels in my eyes; The Factory and Industrial Zone, have issues with level layouts being underutilized like the factory having enemies and such occupying the interiors and less so on the exteriors. Aside from a couple of Arachnotrons there’s so much emptiness in that level. Industrial Zone doesn’t have it so bad with at least zombiemen patrolling many out door areas but that’s really all there is aside from chaingunners sniping you from afar on buildings. Some pinkies or specters to throw off the play in those open areas would’ve kept players on their toes so that traversal isn’t just a straight line to the next area. Mt.Erebus from Doom 1 had this issue of being an open map with not many enemies in areas to go to that wasn’t surrounded with damaging goo. However it feels like a blend of Gotcha! and Suburbs with the mostly open area filled with lava and the huge wave of enemy spawns it almost turns into a slaughter map. For it’s first open map it’s not the worst thing ever, but it’s still got issues. A map like Gotcha! which is far from a city (more like an Earth map I guess) is one that feels slightly more seamless however it does have areas that can pretty much only be accessed with a rad suit and may require trail and error to even get to. The Suburbs having that huge wave of monsters after obtaining the blue keycard is a moment that caught me off guard my first time playing. It’s a a part that did take advantage of the openness of the level that did make things more manageable than say a more confined Doom 1 level. I think what I’m getting at here is that open ended levels with lots of area for the player to roam, should have monsters occupying it. If that means keeping them in structures to snipe the player like in Downtown. Or spawn a battalion after procuring a key item to better utilize that space like suburbs. I could probably go on about how some things are well made in the city or even just the Earth levels in general. Heck, or even how some parts are frustrating and just haven’t aged all that well in Doom 2. I will say this though, Doom 1 has many issues with its levels especially the later episodes,(episode 3 and 4) that I’d rather play TNT than another minute of those levels.

[@Disthron]

Thinking about it now, there were towns and villages in Heretic and Hexen that were WAAAAY more convincing. Then there was Strife, with it's RPG elements. These games didn't have much more detail to work with than Doom and Doom 2 but they still managed to make way more convincing environments.

[@CreativeUsernameHere-r1k]

I mean, my favourite doom city is a bit cheaty being a Auger zenith since it's a source port map pack... but damn those citys actualy make sence.

[@Tae-Joon-Park]

I Like that no one can aktualie spell aktyulaly

[@rapappathepepper3996]

Huh, i didn't knew they were hated, i always found them to be really cool and ambitious even if limited.

[@JustinLesamiz]

It's revisionist history nonsense that has become popular amongst loud people in the last few years. It's bullshit.

[@Spiderella3959]

I've never understood why people were so mad about city levels either and shook that off as some sort of running joke I didn't have enough context to understand. Glad to see other people who had fun on them. Nice video as always

[@DinnerForkTongue]

Me too. Everything about Doom's maps is abstract, you literally can't judge their fidelity.

[@cooler_carpington]

I don't like much of the DOOM 2 maps in general, they just seem badly designed to me

[@ghoulbuster1]

One guy said it's bad and everyone believed it.

[@xxnoxx-xp5bl]

I dunno, when first played Doom 2 as a kid, the Hell on Earth thing had me really excited and... It's more Doom. Probably the one and only time that such a statement is a disappointing thing.

[@TYR1139]

Maybe because the combat setpieces are bad, the are annoying to navigate trought, maybe because of the unnecesary backtracking, maybe for the awful monster window dressing? Maybe people here should play good Doom Levels

[@casual_villain]

I always assumed that when it came to the wacky level designs (even in Doom 1), it was simply the demonic forces corrupting the buildings, we even saw something similar to this in Eternal now that I think about it.

[@JustinLesamiz]

It's also a significant part of the Doom novels from the 90s

[@funnyvalentine4691]

The city levels were probably the closest thing doom 2 had that resembled a place on Earth. If you ignore the everlasting brick wall surrounding them they're actually pretty cool looking

[@JustinLesamiz]

Seriously. They were astonishing in 1994.

[@Tycitron]

I mean i thought the weird castles and visuals were a part of Doom 2's story text where it mentions the starbase being "warped by the demons presence" and i imagine this applies to the City levels as well. (and The Shores of Hell in Doom 1).

[@shotenno]

fun fact, i'm currently working on a duke3D styled shooter that for most parts contains city levels based on a austrian small town where i live (the game is called bullet trail) this helped alot thanks

[@shotenno]

@Cycloworks stand alone

[@eltiolavara9]

hell yes personally i'm a huge fan of the hell levels, people really hate them for being ugly or whatever but they play great and never overstay their welcome at all, and the abandoned mines is amazing

[@bluebay0]

I love the city levels except for the visuals. Downtown and Suburbs have some of my favorite combat in all of classic Doom. Thank you for helping me articulate why I liked those levels all along.

[@chuckthewizard7288]

This is how I feel about defense sections in games. I love defense sections in games but so many people hate them.

[@jasonfenton8250]

They're bad when they're static, making you just stand in one place and shoot. They're good when they make you keep moving, responding to new threats, or falling back to fresh lines of defenses.

[@npc_blob1609]

It's fun when they have multiple points of siege to watch, imagining it like a game of tapper where you have to frantically dart between them, spending risky time at each, helps when designing them.

[@E5rael]

Thanks for defending the city levels! Although I will admit there's one thing I hate about Downtown: The overabundance of teleporters. I still have a hard time remembering which takes to which place. And, if you get it wrong, off you go back to the warehouse, wait for the slow elevator ride and then try the next teleporter.

[@illuminatidad]

Well after working on making city maps for a doom tc project, I've learned a lot about what makes a good city level. What it mainly comes down to, is does it seem like a place someone could legitimately live in? How do people operate in those buildings? Do people gather there for events? How do people get there? Would you see yourself there in real life? Buildings have windows, they're not piles of bricks. Are there no liminal spaces? Tons of things like that are important design decisions. Obviously, after working on space stations and hell scapes for most of the levels, designing a city is a wild turn in style and precautions, so it's no wonder it looks unrealistic. However making a city level is not impossible in the doom engine either, and I'm sure if the designers had more time and some guidelines they could've pulled off some better scenery.

[@JustinLesamiz]

Realism is the LAST thing a good Doom map needs. One of the things that makes Doom so great is that it WASN'T a slave to realism. We need to get back to that kind of thinking and embrace whimsy again.

[@sweetpepino1907]

I remember when I first found out Doom 2 had you go back home to Earth to stop the invasion of Hell there. I thought that was SO cool and scary. I've always been personally susceptible to apocalyptic themes and imagery, so when I first played it when I was much younger that skybox did a lot of heavy lifting for me and I found them mostly enjoyable. I've kinda hardened on them over the years for the same reasons as everybody else however. They're not bad levels, but do not give me a sense of place. Post video edit: I think the point that the city setting gives you room to set expectations is potentially at the heart of the issue. Perhaps when people get stuck on these levels, the facade falls apart and the frustration of being stuck is amplified by not being able to tell what the area you're in is supposed to be. I don't know what a spaceport would be like so it feels like exploring, but I have an idea of what a city is and how I might navigate it.

[@Lizzaroro]

I always imagined the Pinky building in Downtown to be a fashion shop.

[@adampagano5361]

CyberMage actually had an interesting take on a city area. The game tried to use it like a hub area in between plot levels in the game. It actually did a good job of looking and feeling like an urban area.

[@roadkill8377]

city levels suck and theyre bad and i hate them actually theyre cool i like them now

[@gibbonplays6111]

You didnt watch the video, there isnt enough time since the video went live you fiend

[@ash10ashofficial63]

my theory has always been that map 14 is a fort, like a historical site or something

[@nuke211]

after all this time, i never realized that Doom 1 end sceen was actually city with their skyscrapers. I always thought it was a huge tower where you fought the bosses. (hence the name Tower of Babel)

[@MentalParadox]

As a child, I thought the same

[@mispusaaulikan4704]

I for one like the city-levels of Doom 2. Because they are so different from the rest of the levels, and I like some variety in the levels.

[@AybaOnline]

i really love the city levels in concept, i actually really like how they look and they sell the city look pretty well for me, but i hate the gameplay so much. i feel like they made the architecture first and then tried to work out the linear flow of the level afterwards, and it just ends up feeling a bit misguided to me. i think that's why they're probably my favorite deathmatch levels, they feel like they're designed to be roamed around in, and the regular linear flow of doom seems to get in the way of that.

[@GermanPeter]

Oh, that's for sure. I mean, Downtown is literally just a set of squares that Sandy shaped into buildings, and Suburbs is straight-up just a recreation of a place he saw in real life.

[@JustinLesamiz]

Doom has never been about linearity... That was one of the great things about Doom and why modern games don't have that charm. There are so many Doom maps meant to be played in any order you want.

[@AybaOnline]

@@JustinLesamiz i kind of mean more in the general sense that each path in doom is ultimately linear. i know you’re probably meaning more so that you can pick which path you choose like doom 2’s map09 or 10, but by its nature i still think that the gameplay flow of doom is ultimately summarized by crafted linear paths that you get to choose the order of. the reason why i don’t think sandy’s levels work is because it doesn’t feel as though there is any forethought about the paths he set up, as if he just wanted to make a cool city and the player’s experience within it was an afterthought. i do absolutely agree that doom is more open and geared towards player agency than most shooters, that’s why i love it too, but i think it is still ultimately a guided and (arguably) linear experience. the best part of a good map is masking that guided experience by making the player feel as though they have a greater degree of control (eviternity II’s map14 and sigil’s map4 are great examples of this imo)

[@natetheninja3182]

I've always found DOOM's architecture really interesting. I mean, it is very limited since it's a 3D engine from the 90's, but it still makes the player use their imagination to figure out what certain things are, and I personally think that makes the architecture unique and cool. Even when making your own maps, you are limited with what you can do, but you are still using your imagination to create certain sections of the map. It's really cool tbh

[@josephkeen7224]

The thing is that the same makes the textures blend together more, making it harder to tell things apart. It’s a part of why the barren levels are a problem. It’s why bloods levels stick out despite the similar looking assets like you pointed out. Compare this to Doom 1, where the tighter design causes environments to stick out more due to how textures were better while still being non linear while not being barren like the city levels. Hopefully I explained this well. Another problem is that dooms combat is so dependent on enemy placement, and larger more open maps are a lot more limited in where you can place enemies, making them more boring for me personally.

[@BerserkerX]

Doom 2 is my favorite! As a kid tge cities never bothered me and now hearing you speak on this makes me sympathetic towards the kind of chaos hell reigned on those structures and poor people who had to come face to face with those demonic forces. We all need a Doomguy!

[@Lugbzurg]

Gotta say, I really appreciate how you highlighted the merits of the story and setting. Too many people STILL believe to this day that no one cared about any kind of storytelling just because John Carmack was quoted as not caring about ANY videogame stories in general at the time, but quickly changed his mind. Heck, I've seen people who assume the spaceport is in actual space or can't figure out when you actually go to Hell.

[@GuythatisocoolSothere]

I always assumed, like you said In the video, that the cities were just heavily damaged by the hellspawn and this became more maze-like then they were before so that anyone that was trying to get to hell’s gate would have a harder time surviving and hopefully die. I liked the city levels when I first played it, just because the maze-like nature of it was fun for me, and I liked a fun little maze every now and again

[@prodigy-hu6dy]

I enjoyed the city levels mostly, it was when I got to the Hell portion that this game just took a massive dump in quality for me and barely recovered. I really enjoyed Nirvana, Condo, Chasm and Spirit World in particular was my favorite map. The city stages were the best in my opinion

[@AndyAKratz]

I've been playing Doom and Doom II forever. I'm one who never hated the city levels. I think it kind of odd that some folks dislike them so much. I couldn't agree with your take on this more .

[@luisenriquerobles9006]

Great video. I also felt that the other KZbinrs’ criticism of city levels was a little bit exaggerated. The developers basically INVENTED FPS cityscapes, and I think they did an excellent job considering the limitations of the era. I agree those levels haven’t aged as well as others, but are still very much enjoyable even after almost 30 years!

[@JustinLesamiz]

Seriously. There are so many comments here talking about how the cities look better in mods that came out 20+ years later, completely missing the obvious fact that the entire game industry as we know it appeared AFTER Doom 2 was released. There was no template at all for this stuff in 1994. Two years prior, we had Wolfenstein and there are ZERO stairs in that game. People are dumb.

[@W7F0N6]

It all comes down to the fact that DOOM II's design philosophy still revolved around the concept of abstract level design at a time when industry trends and player expectations (due in part to the terrestrial setting of "Hell on Earth") were moving toward more realistic level design. Neither approach is inherently "better", just emphasizes different things. Realistic level design cares about world-building and immersion whereas abstract level design only cares about gameplay. Both approaches have their place. In the modern landscape of FPS, DOOM, DOOM II, and Quake are unique and enduring examples of abstract level design applied to 3D games which you don't see much of these days.

[@GermanPeter]

That's a good way of putting it! I guess it was a continuation of Wolfenstein 3D's level design, where SOME levels had bits of realism in them, but the overwhelming majority were abstract concepts that allowed the player to imagine what it could be.

[@Fadam_red]

First time I played downtown It felt so cool to see that it’s not only hell and lab areas but also other places like a city, but then when I watch a video on doom 2 and downtown came on I began to hate it, but now I have began to see the fun In the city levels after this video, thanks

[@singleproppilot]

A well-known bug in one of the early versions of Doom II caused the skybox to not change when you went to the city levels. You would have had to save your game, exit, restart Doom II, and reload the game to get the new sky. All the hate aside, I like the city levels. They’re not great to look at, but the wide open areas provide for some huge and intense fights.

[@Maceror]

City levels give me a headache edit: they still give me a headache, tbf most DOOM 2 levels do (especially Sandy's), city ones just last longer, so they give me a worse headache

[@oscarcacnio8418]

Motion sickness is a special kind of hell. And by god can I feel it while playing DOOM 2.

[@TheGuyWhoIsSitting]

The only maps that ever gave me a headache from the iD sanctioned map sets that aren’t the master levels were Map 8? The one that ends with two archviles and a bunch of revenants that teleport in, in Plutonia and Barrels o fun in DOOM 2 (both from pistol start)

[@panthekirb7561]

IG shooters aren't for you

[@Maceror]

@@panthekirb7561 I play a ton of shooters, especially the "boomer shooter" kind, DOOM 2 just turns my brain into scrambled eggs

[@panthekirb7561]

@@Maceror You're probably just one of those zoomers who think they're retro because they play Doom Eternal and Ultrakill (garbage game btw)

[@vogonp4287]

I honestly love all of Doom 2's levels. The surreal level design gives the game a unique feeling. It's memorable, and leaves a lot to the imagination.

[@vazzeg]

The city levels are some of my favorites exactly the same reasons. I loved how it wasn't "out there" all the time.

[@billycausey4277]

I always took the cities as like at the time sci fi brutalist types. like what was in comic books in the late 80s and early 90s like Judge Dredd etc.

[@bobsaturday5840]

3:42 I like to imagine that this is old castle right in city which kept as either museum or touristic place

[@BreadTeleporter1968]

I always thought the castles were Hellish forts like we see in e3’s intermission screen brought to Earth

[@MegaICS]

Honestly I never thought much off of these city levels, to me they are just another level. On the other hand, Downtown and Suburbs are really fun to play due to its high enemy count

[@anthroplant7879]

The maps are conceptually smart as well as creative and innovative for the time. Early doom's toolkit was nothing like what we have today, and it definitely influenced the OG level designs. Sandy Petersen was pushing the limits of those source tools when he drew up downtown, and I think that makes them interesting, even if they aren't "great" by typical ideas of a map.

[@JustinLesamiz]

It's crazy how people think the tools we have now existed back then. Making a Doom map used to be A LOT harder.

[@sweethomealabama6695]

I love your videos and how exited you sound, your fast pronunciation and overall humor

[@Scypek]

I just recently found your channel to watch some half life videos, I did not expect to see a video about Doom soon after! And such a topic too. I always loved city levels in Doom, has to be my favorite theme. It's the most relatable one, since hell is just an abstract otherworldly dimension, and a space base or a scientific research facility... might as well be an alternate dimension too. Cities also inspire a more non-linear exploratory design... and even if a city level is linear, then it just feels like a journey, since you're inevitably gonna end up going in and out of buildings, through the streets and whatnot. The original doom cities are a lot more abstract than the ones in people's custom levels today... but as a wolf3d enjoyer, I'm used to flexing my imagination. Anyway, I don't have the time to watch the video right now so I'll get back to it later. Maybe it'll give me some new insights.

[@fabioataidedelima296]

As a fan of old FPS games, I understand that there has been a notorious evolution throughout the games since Wolf3D, which I like a lot for being simple as it is. Doom came with new resources such weapons and high and dark areas, and for me the city maps in Doom 2 are visually awesome, especially Downtown and Industrial Zone, maybe due to the nice view you get from the high up ledges and buildings. Of course the engine used in Duke Nukem and Blood brought more realism to the levels and then it just went better until nowadays when we have games with levels more realistic than real places LOL. About gameplay and complexity of the city maps, I find Doom reached its target with the resourcing limitations it had then. I found other maps more confusing than these ones, for my opinion still remains that Downtown and Industrial Zone are my favourite levels in Doom 2 followed by The Courtyard, which in my opinion has the best enemy infighting moment, more than Suburbs.

[@TheCow-j1l]

now I want fan rebuilds of the doom 2 cities, like, before hell corruption

[@GermanPeter]

I once attempted that! It's just a bit too difficult to figure out which parts were due to the hell corruption and which ones weren't. Another problem is that levels lose like half the detail if you remove the hellish assets or repair the destroyed parts.

[@boredralsei7786]

i mean, they're not the worst, but they're hard to navigate

[@StanislawNiemyjski]

just like real cities without signs

[@boredralsei7786]

@@StanislawNiemyjski exactly

[@Dark_Jaguar]

Thank you very much! I couldn't have put it better myself. The freedom of exploration and the very "abstract" nature of these levels was something I used to love about them. They have definitive flaws, and I understand why many don't like them, but it does come down to what someone wants out of them in the first place, and for me? I got exactly what I wanted. And that house stuffed to overflowing with corpses is downright horrifying when you sit down to think about how it got that way.

[@lancebaylis3169]

The most realistic Doom city in an official map set is actually Final Doom: The Plutonia Experiment Map 29, albeit transposed to a hellish landscape. It's the one time Doom ever gives us a city that is recognizable as a city in the way a Duke Nukem 3D or Blood city map does. 'Downtown' is a weird one in that the original design in the pre-release version actually includes docks and a water section at one end of the map, which got removed in the finished version. Quite why they'd take out the section that actually enhances the feel of it being an actual city is anyone's guess.

[@GermanPeter]

I actually prefer that the docks were taken out, because they added more buildings with windows on them. The docks certainly looked really cool, but it's probably better this way.

[@SomeSkyrimFan]

Im literally playing the original 1993 doom, alt tabbed to change music, and saw this. Great timing, peter 😎

[@JustinLesamiz]

Sounds like you had that "Peter Tingle" we've all heard about.

[@andrew-dunai]

I first played Doom 2 as a kid, and whether it's just a strong imagination I had at this age with my friends or if it was just something never seen before, I totally loved seeing all of city levels. Every Doom 2 level has its own distinct unique atmosphere and was way ahead of its time. I love them all, and the level designers deserve all the respect in the world. Edit: yes, even the Factory. I hated its complexity, but damn, it felt good. It's juat like the Atari times: you see a square on the screen, but you know that it's a bomb, a box, an enemy, or a bonus pickup. Besides, the weird design of city levels only improved the eerie feeling of Earth's reality being mixed with Hell's, as it was said that the demons "brought their own reality with them". This made city levels feel even more spooky, like they were corrupted by the demons.

[@tivvy2vs21]

I recently made a video on an opensource game called cube, and one of the few levels I couldn't beat was Stalingrad, which really reminded me of these

[@TheGuyWhoIsSitting]

I never understood the complaints “they don’t look like real cities” “they’re too big and I get lost” Ever been to a city for the first time? Because my god it is easy to get lost. Even with GPS I couldn’t find some stuff when I went to Tokyo. I followed the directions but my little indicator of where I was never seemed to correspond with reality. In fact by the time I found the destination I wanted to go to, the place was closed for the evening. Also, considering when the game came out and even compared with mostly vanilla compatible newer mapsets, computers back then would have absolutely crawled trying to render something more realistic. DOOM was well optimized but it still ran poorly on a lot of hardware at the time. I think people take that for granted now with hindsight and almost 30 years of innovation and technological advancements. Even between Doom 2 and the plutonia experiment the later levels look more defined than the levels in DOOM 2, but it was also released a long time afterwards as well. I’d argue TNT’s other set for final doom had some more blatant design sins of being too big. Besides there’s map 21 in DOOM 2 and people want to complain about downtown and industrial zone? Even before I saw others talking about how bad Nirvana is, I always felt something was really off about that map. Indeed, there is a lot off about it. Just my take. I’m not saying I’m right. I’m just confused why people would complain about any map that isn’t Map 21.

[@douglewis7946]

Peter, you seem like the kind of guy who would really enjoy the Happy Fun Time Circus 2 WAD. Please enjoy it at your leisure.

[@VTRcomics]

I remember my first time playing Downtown not finding where I needed to go first. I eventually found stairs but completely missed the arrow on the floor and it's worth noting that I felt like I always had to be on the move because of the enemies. For what it's worth, I didn't remember to start a comment but I can say that your points on making these levels more relatable and immersive are absolutely correct. Whenever I play any other game, like Uncharted or Battlefield, their cities are never wide open spaces when it comes to physical interactions. Even my favorite level in Doom Eternal the ARC is a linear your through several buildings that just so happens go loop back around to a plaza of sorts. It doesn't FEEL like a city that I could explore or get lost in unlike open world games like Red Dead Redemption. And for me, Downtown was one of my favorites in Doom 2 specifically because it broke the mold set by Doom 1. Probably because it also scratched my Banjo-Kazooie bone where I could just roam freely before making progress. And I'll say this, Suburbs is just a straight up good level. Every section of it has a point to me, even if the exit area makes no sense.

[@blehmeh9889]

I'm a zoomer in my early 20's, and I played Doom 2 back in 2017 or so for the first time. Before watching this video, I had no strong opinion on the city levels. I heard people criticize them in the past for looking nothing like real locations despite being supposedly based on real locations. I could look past that, figuring "Based on and looks like a real place" was different in 1993 than it is today. Plus, it's far more "realistic" than the hell levels or the rest of the game. I enjoyed walking around the city levels and seeing all the towers and buildings. It was a little confusing and complicated, but that's any old school Doom level. I never heard anyone complain heavily about these levels apart from the usual "It's based on a real place but doesn't look very realistic!" angle, which I find to be an unsurprising observation for a debatably 3D game engine made 30 years ago.

[@okra_]

I feel like the only person justified in hating those levels was John Carmack (since they probably gave him more work in optimizing the engine to run them properly)

[@Matzu-Music]

Very Fair Points. With that said they need some work visually and I will stand by this. I'm currently working on a mod for doom 2 that fixes some bugs, and I specifically made downtown more citylike.

[@JustinLesamiz]

Sure, but you're doing that in 2024. This game was made in 1994. The same things weren't possible. You have the benefit of knowing everything that came after this incredibly successful and influential game.

[@harryosborne7703]

GermanPeter is a KZbinr who deserves more recognition. He is currently underrated and deserves more love from the audience.

[@VGamingJunkieVT]

Personally, the Industrial Zone was my favorite City Level. It has distinct enough buildings that you don't have to slap a giant arrow and I had a much easier time finding my way around. Also kind of cool that it sort of bleeds into a castle on the other side of the moat.

[@mingseeling8121]

I hate the window imps in Downtown and the red key room with all the imps above you and not being able to look up.

[@traumatizedgeworth]

just play on gzdoom LOSER!!!!!!!!!!!!111!11!11! 1!11 1111

[@I_am_in_your_castle]

I really like the "CyberBuilding?" drawing in the thumbnail lol

[@jamesmangiameli8337]

I love this video! I agree with many, many of your points. I actually enjoy the City levels, for a variety of reasons. The first time I was playing Doom 2, my dad was watching me. I got to 'Downtown', and we both said 'Wow'. We were impressed. It looked *different* from what we were used to. It actually did look a bit like a city street, at least within the constraints Id Software was laboring under. Maybe the name was a bit of a nudge, but we agreed, it does look like an Earth location that got taken over by the bad guys. The music track for Downtown helps as well--it's a sound of loss, of sadness, of despair. Side, but related note: I don't get people who hate Downtown, but love Odyssey of Noises (Plutonia Map 29). Odyssey of Noises is a bigger, more confusing, less clear version of Downtown. They seem very similar--I'd think it was either love 'em both, or hate 'em both. Back to the main points: I agree that it's worth talking about what a 'City Level' is. Innmost Dens, while I like the level, isn't obviously a City Level. It could've been between levels 1-12, or (with a different sky) 20-30, and it wouldn't have felt out of place. I like your criteria. A city level should have 'realistic' textures and skyboxes, sure. I'd also add: A 'city Level' should have more outdoor/open areas than usual. The indoor areas should feel like 'islands in water', as opposed to 'lakes on land', if that makes sense. Essentially, I feel like a 'City Level' should have at least 2-3 indoor areas, that the player should be able to walk 360 degrees around. Best example is Downtown, but it also includes Suburbs, Factor, and Industrial Zone. I'd also like to make a controversial nomination of something that's almost a City Level--it could keep the same layout, just change skybox and textures. Mount Erebus. It fits the parameters--wide open areas surrounding several buildings. I think Mt. Erebus is genuinely a proto-city level, from which say The Factory got its inspiration. I also love your points about Knee Deep in the Dead. I love it. We all love it. Great episode with great levels. But, does it really *look* like anything? Take Hangar. It's iconic, and it deserves to be. Made with love. Often emulated. Very popular. Well-loved. Does it in any way, look like a place where aircraft are stored? That's what a Hangar is. Take Phobos Labs. That may well be my favorite E1 level. Does it seem more like a 'Lab' than any other level? They could've called the Computer Station 'Phobos Labs' instead, and I don't think anyone would have thought it weird. E1M3, Toxin Refinery. Sure, it has toxin in it. Almost every level in E1 does. You could call one of several different levels 'Toxin Refinery', instead of E1M3, and no one would have batted an eye. So yeah, as awesome as these levels are, I'd argue that 'Downtown' looks more like a 'city' level than 'Hangar' looks like a hangar. I like Doom's city levels, and will stand up for them. (Then again, I'm the guy that thinks 'Halls of the Damned' is an amazing level, so feel free to take my opinion with a grain of salt). Thanks for making this video, and thanks for bearing with my long comment!

[@GermanPeter]

I like the points about the distribution of indoor vs. outdoor areas, and I do get the "islands in water"-metaphor. That buildings are something you actively seek out, rather than something you just stumble through. And believe you me, I'm currently trying to make sense of Doom 1's maps, and it's just a bunch of "well this is a computer station and next to it is a room where waste is stored" over and over again. They really didn't try to make distinguishable levels in the first episode at all.

[@chrismathis5601]

Suburbs is one of my favorite levels. The engine is really what holds the realism back for detail. You wouldn’t be able to make overhanging awnings, or streetlights when you’re dealing with that level of verticality. With more thought, you could certainly achieve it, but it wouldn’t play the same. I put a dam and power plant into a map and while the dam was quite believable with working floodgates, I’m not sure that anyone would immediately think power plant unless it was pointed out to them. I think some better textures would have gone a long way. Raised sidewalks and broken windows rather than random bars everywhere. But, like you said, it’s almost more believable than most levels throughout the games. But a lot more detail to make it look like buildings had crumbed walls rather than perfectly cut openings would have gone a long way and it probably came down to time or possibly issues with optimization. All those vertices add up quickly in wide open areas like that.

[@vazzeg]

You know how there are old castles or ruins of fortresses in city centers? I always thought the inmost dens are like one of those, just taken over by the demons.

[@austinreed7343]

Plutonia goes further and adds nature levels (jungles, caves, etc) on top of city levels; it could have been interesting to toss some nature levels to show that the demons aren’t just targeting humankind but all life:

[@greenyyx]

I love how I watch videos I would normally not watch just because they're by you. Great quality as always!

[@LeanneH]

Always excited whenever you upload C:

[@TimDoherty]

Imagination to help fill in the blanks, or not see certain things is a huge deal in this and other parts of Doom. I know of some FPS gamers who started at Quake, then later saw Doom and just "couldn't get it". I understand looking at how Duke 3D blows it away, but as you say, different engine, lots of time to get inspired and make a better job. It would also be good if you'd looked BACK in time. Look at say Wolf3D, Blake Stone, Ken's Labyrinth. Generally everything was the same height, same lighting, square blocks, but a mixture of the textures on those walls, and the shapes of those blocks and the items in the rooms, we got some idea of what room we were inside. Our imaginations helped fill in the rest. When you went from such a game to Doom and its engine upgrades, oh boy! Also while Downtown seems so packed of monsters, especially before you go into any buildings there are only a bit over 100 there. Maybe that arrow didnt' need to be there, if you just picked a building and cleared it out and moved on, people would get there eventually.

[@engine4403]

I tried playing Doom and Doom 2 but I couldn't, I really tried, but I couldn't. The weird mapping of the time just didn't jive with me and I had a mostly negative experience hunting switches before I gave up both games after around 13 levels. After that I picked up Sunlust after being told it was masterclass in mapping and really hard. Putting it on Hey not too rough and going in blind is what kept my interest on Doom and its the only reason I still check out new wadpacks and mods for it (shout out to MtPain27). So how would these more hated City Levels not suck? The edit part: yeah real. Too bad I dont know these maps like the back of my hand, that would help a lot prolly

[@JustinLesamiz]

The word is "jibe", not "jive". Fun fact.

[@Domarius64]

When they were making Doom, they were stuck coming up with trying to create some sort of atmosphere within the limited engine. Then Romero created a "computer room" where the inset computer panel ledges were far above you, and had imps up there shooting down at you. Everyone loved this "whimsical" feel it created, and it was decided right then and there that this abstract feeling would be what drives all the levels thereafter. That's why all the levels are so wacky, they are just interesting, strange, dream like environments, and they are all very memorable. I can't remember who was responsible for the city levels, but it was just an experiment, and still contained those abstract, whimsical areas.

[@SLON-sh2jg]

It. Doom 2 has a much less serious tone (just look at that big face on Map 11) and it's pretty obvious they didn't even bother. Map 16 was the only attempt to depict something real, but it is too small and unpretentious. Essentially it's just a collection of levels, sorted - not very carefully - by theme, and connected by a plot that was clearly written in hindsight. Hand on heart, beta Doom 2 was much worse, they just didn't have the time/inclination to complete the final layout. Petersen has said in interviews that the final product is not exactly what he would like to see.

[@yellotheepiko]

The thumbnail gives me "Don't be racist, I am a building!" vibes

[@GermanPeter]

I think of that each time too!

[@CrashOzzy1223]

10:12 I remember there’s supposed to be something about a green sunset somewhere, irl somewhere unable to sustain human life. Also mars? Phobos?

[@critlv972]

I’ve always loved city levels in Doom 2, they looked so cute. Yeah, and walking around some realistic-ish-ish environments was a nice change of pace for a predominantly hell/space environment based game

[@xxnoxx-xp5bl]

Totally disagree about "if you think Doom 2 was lackluster, you must feel the same about classic Doom." Context and expectation is everything here. In Doom you were sold generic sci-fi bases and hell and got it. In Doom 2 you were promised Hell in Earth... And didn't get it.

[@U9B]

I don't know I got it just fine.

[@CrAzYpotpie]

​@@U9BYou and no one else. Even the video creator disagrees that it looks like a city on Earth (or anywhere else) in any way, shape, or form.

[@JustinLesamiz]

@@CrAzYpotpiehorseshit. Plenty of us got it

[@MaladyKayjo]

I love the city levels, they try so hard and fail so bad at realism, and it’s so charming. I love it (an edit because I just thought of something that explains it perfectly. To quote a movie but I replace the power glove with The city levels in doom 2 “I love the city levels, they’re so bad”)

[@SpiritMaster99]

5:47 nah i say citadel is a city level. Back in the day you would have a citadel in the center of your city to hold troop garrisons and Factory is on the outside of the city

[@Disthron]

Sorry man, but I think Doom 1 levels, specially from the first episode, were just better designed than other levels. We know that Doom 2 was basically rushed out the door and the design of the city levels really show this. Also I don't think it's fair to say that Doom "never looked good" it was a game changer back in the day.

[@JustinLesamiz]

Seriously. Doom was state of the art when it was released. It was the most photorealistic game by miles and miles. It's crazy how many people don't know this. However, the city levels weren't rushed. They were just the best the hardware at the time could handle. They were pushing the limits of both the engine and the computers of the time.

[@MentalParadox]

I was supposed to hate them? I specifically love them for their open layout and ability to go through the buildings in any order. As a child, when my imagination was more vivid, I imagined the city in Downtown was under siege and I had to take the underground route to avoid the demons on the surface.

[@JustinLesamiz]

Didn't you hear we're all supposed to think the same things? Diversity of thought is treason!

[@rukifellth2]

Gotta say, a year or so ago I played a Doom 2 remake megawad called Honte (Hell on THE Earth). Unlike other remake megawads that have a tendency to overbloat the vanilla maps, Honte actually stick very true to the source level and size while adding a TON of visual improvements while only using vanilla textures. When they managed to take The Factory and make it GREAT thats a good mind for detail. I'd love to see you compare D2 with Honte's unterpretation of D2.

[@15098D]

The song “Into Sandy’s City” is amazing

[@HydraKittten]

I like the city levels, they make good set pieces, the towering buildings and wide open spaces, while they aren't the most impressive looking, they get the idea across and they have a nice sense of scale, they also make cool sandboxes for modded playthroughs.

[@Astfgl]

I never really minded the City levels in Doom 2 at all. 12-year old me who first played the game back in the mid-90's wasn't trying to interpret these maps anyway. To me they were all abstract places with weird shapes and strange pathways. Games were just like that at the time, none of them tried to recreate realistic places in any sort of convincing manner. The fact that they pioneered the concept of a real city environment in Doom 2 should be applauded. I'd much rather admire the ambition of what they were trying to do with limited technology at the time, than criticize the somewhat flawed end results.

[@KayvK]

I think you made a great point about the fantasy nature of Doom and the expectations that disappoint for the city levels. In my mind, though I'm very familiar with all of the halls, rooms, and scenes of Doom, there's not a single place I've been that looks like the Doom levels. It's well pointed out that the graphics and layouts were always nonsensical and ugly, but most Doom players don't actually care. It was never the problem for city levels. The problem lies in the design. The red keycard in Industrial Zone that you pointed out in your video is a great example. For most of the game, a teleporter exit brings you back to the entrance and vice versa. But for whatever reason, this rule is suddenly broken, and worse yet on a primary method for progresson. With regards to the openness and large scale, making the player think and explore the space is a good thing, but you need to reward some kind of creative and logical reasoning. Making some strange quirk or trick necessary to progress encourages superstitous guess-work. More importantly, it frustrates the player, and not in the good way that a challenge does. Once you know your way around, the levels are not so bad. I just think the levels could have used some more polish and layout sensibility.

[@Lowehomie121]

Man, your shit is so underrated it is criminal. Keep being a legend.

[@bearmandev]

I remember enjoying the city levels in particular. I was mildly startled to learn that people widely disliked them.

[@JustinLesamiz]

They don't. It's just a meme that's repeated by loud narcissists.

[@nikithegamer5165]

I also loved the city levels of doom 2, I liked them a lot