The Biggest Plot Hole in A Song of Ice and Fire (Podcast)

[@christianyepez1016]

You see Tyrion kind of forgot that he wanted to kill Littlefinger.

[@shadow_realm47]

I see i see I knew that meme would have come form a wiser mind than D& D

[@chrisbovington9607]

He should have kept a mental list like Arya. My dad My sister And that bloody snake, Littlefinger

[@maxolivermurray]

You can’t throw a D&D jab at GRRM you foolish goon

[@BrainDamageComedy]

🤣 D&D can explain everything

[@Wolltazar]

yeah, little did he know that not getting rid of Petyr would almost cost him life since the poison was originally meant for him, not Joffrey

[@YourLastGreatkNight]

I think the big problem is Tyrion isn’t as pragmatic and as smart as we all think he is. He is very very clever, but he is extremely selfish and spiteful, and that gets in the way. He says multiple times to himself he can’t trust Varys, but Varys makes it easier for him to see and be with Shae(selfish). He says multiple times he needs to get around to getting rid of littlefinger, but he is far more focused on spoiling Cersi’s plans and getting the upper hand(spiteful). So I think that is the issue, not necessarily a plot hole.

[@christianellefsen2321]

thank you, you made me more acceptable of this plothole/issue

[@mappingshaman5280]

He's right to not trust varys though. Varys is a piece of weasel shit, whom will obey anyone whom asks him to (he testifies against tyrion and helps jaime free tyrion) and ultimately he wants to see tyrions nephew overthrown in favour of FAegon.

[@jankapuscinski8456]

Tyrion is Martin's self insert meant to demonstrate why philosopher kings are good but actually demonstrates the opposite

[@mappingshaman5280]

@@jankapuscinski8456 no samwell tarly is his self insert.

[@menehuneforty-five7118]

😅

[@ragyrge]

Dealing with Janos Slynt before trying to take down Littlefinger is a very logical order of events. Tyrion was trying to avoid the exact same situation Ned ended up in, where he had all the "right" reasons for an arrest, but it didn't matter, because he didn't have control of the goldcloaks. Tyrion didn't have enough control of the gruntwork forces at King's Landing to do something so bold. He could maybe rely on the Lannister forces and his authority as Hand (which, knowing the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion, was probably a trap so that Tywin could disown Tyrion if he made any mistake), but then there's Cersei who would love to jump at any opportunity to undermine his authority and had a tighter grip on those forces as the Queen. He could go the assassination route, but then he would have to rely on someone like Pycelle or Varys, the former being clearly not an option, and the latter being about as unknowable and untrustworthy as Littlefinger, someone you definitely don't want to owe any favours to unless you absolutely must. Basically the only people he had there who could deal with Littlefinger were the mountain clans, and using those to openly kill a member of the small council would be a terrible blow to Tyrion's image. Tyrion was playing a long game, he needed to solidify his position in King's Landing before he could move against his foes. He was playing the game of thrones, and being way more aware of the board situation than most other PoV characters.

[@alexturlais8558]

Yeah Cersei was still technically Queen regent, and could probably intervene if the temporary hand starts beheading useful council members.

[@gups5960]

But what about after he replaced Slynt with his own man Ironhand. He had the gold cloaks and all his power as Hand, which includes Tywin's backing since whatever their relationship was, Tywin did send Tyrion to Kings Landing to sort shit out. You could argue that Littlefinger still had cronies in the Goldcloaks, being the "hand that pays them" and all. But I'm sure someone like Tyrion could have found countless of ways to take down Littlefinger, even accusing him publicly infront of the court. Instead he sends them to TREAT with the Tyrells. I think GRRM tries using the Crown's crippling debt as Littlefinger's plot armour, but I still think that's thin.

[@hadiroxs]

This is actually an amazing explanation!

[@revolver37]

This is spot on. There are other concerns as well: Removing the master of coin with a war going on. Building that chain in the Blackwater and funding the alchemists isn't cheap, you need funding. Baelish's spy network. Tyrion is smart enough to know that he has to sneak around to see Shae because there are spies everywhere. If Baelish has a mole in the mountain clans and Tyrion orders them to assassinate, LF finds out, evades the attack, and now Tyrion's ass is showing. It would be a massive political blunder. It might be papered over pretty thinly in the books but it's not a plot hole.

[@Samael16661]

Tyrion should have told Tywin about Littlefingers lie about the dagger. Get a written order for Littlefingers arrest off Tywin, take out Janos Slynt and then gave him arrested. Boom. Tyrion just kind of doesn't mention Littlefingers massive hand in these events.

[@paulcato3434]

Honestly, if I was in King's Landing, staying in the Targaryen's old castle, incest would always be in the back of my mind.

[@matt_9112]

Also kingsguard knights are literally the first people that come to mind considering access and ability to "fly under the radar". Now you don't need to be a genius to figure it's Jaime and not Barristan (to honorable as far as Ned knows), Mandon Moore, Bros Blount etc. (all too old and/or too ugly), there's literally only Jaime left, since Robert's kingsguard is a pretty awful bunch when it comes to "lover material", aside from Jaime and maybe Barristan (if one disregards age).

[@Guinnessdrnkr1234]

So the Targaryen words are “incest is best”

[@rd0676]

@@Guinnessdrnkr1234 Damn, never knew that the Targaryens were from Alabama

[@kerrychristensen7204]

@@Guinnessdrnkr1234 Relatively speaking

[@heyzeuscreestow9394]

Lol

[@allarfckingdeem]

The sheer size of that plothole allowed me and my loyal goldcloaks to completly disapear not just from the Nights Watch but also from the entire story.

[@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin]

I just hope you and your crew are hanging at Eastwatch....with the end days religious zealots.

[@allarfckingdeem]

@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin Damn it! You found us! Now you at least know why there were bodies in the waters near Eastwatch.

[@Pikepaw]

So Cotter Pyke is just a patsy of you!

[@allarfckingdeem]

@@Pikepaw Of course. Old Pykey and I grew up together on Harlaw. But then, i never really understood why he called himself Pyke.

[@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin]

@@allarfckingdeem I think it's like bastards from Jersey saying they're from New York.

[@andybaxter4442]

Tyrion is also an alcoholic, and that condition clouds his thinking and actions at MANY points in the story.

[@CharlesFreck]

This is a good point, though I don't remember it being made clear exactly how much it effects him and his choices. Do you have any direct examples? He's definitely an alcoholic, I just don't remember when that really factors in, other then in him saying stuff that can get him in trouble because he doesn't hold his tongue. Seems like being drunk would make him want to kill Littlefinger even more.

[@andybaxter4442]

Preston pointed another one out once where Tyrion drunkenly twisted the "dog to kill a dog" line to be some admission that Joffrey sent the cat's paw to kill Bran, and even though it doesn't make sense, Tyrion just went on believing it.

[@jamiemccollin438]

Ah, explains s6-8

[@HarshDude126]

Oh, please. What a cop out.

[@shahzebhasan9995]

Killing a master of coin with an apparently good reputation might give the Crown's creditors reason to pause...maybe that stopped Tyrion, can't have the Iron Bank calling in the middle of a war.

[@alanpennie8013]

This is a good reason. But we need to see Tyrion reason it. And would it weigh with him against the fact that Littlefinger threatens his life? In fact Tyrion would reason that Littlefinger would perceive him as an immediate threat and would act immediately, and Littlefinger would reason the same, so both have to strike as quickly as possible.

[@HarshDude126]

Littlefinger's reputation would have been destroyed if it had been made public that he orchestrated the conflict between the Lannisters and the Starks which resulted in the War of the Five Kings which wrecked havoc across all of Westeros.

[@GhostEmblem]

Honestly I think Little finger was nudging Ned in the incest direction as much as he could and incident with Jaime outside the brothel made it believable he would jump to that conclusion even if it was false which it very well could have been until he confronted Cersei and she confirmed it.

[@otto_jk]

And wasn't it a famous rumour among the common people that the lords didn't take seriously

[@witfurd1034]

@@otto_jk Eaxcatly. Idk what they're talking about that Ned believeing Joffrey to be a product of incest is a plot hole. Like, htorughout the whole chunk of the book there are rumors swarming around about the two and it becomes clear that the commoners rumor about it as well in future books.

[@SunDogGod]

When it comes to Neds jump in logic to believe it’s incest. I always thought that there were rumors about Jaime and Cersei that Tywin would put down so it was that much easier for Ned to come to the conclusion. I mean they’ve been having sex since puberty I’m sure they were caught by a servant once or twice and They had to shut them up or fire them but there would still be rumors.

[@ceilingfanenthusiast6041]

Serveants literally did catch them as children and told Joanna. She threatened to tell Tywin if they didn't stop and she ofc died in child birth

[@martinrheaume5393]

and the genealogy book kept talking about Lannisters having golden hair

[@ViciousDeliciousIV]

Im pretty sure you are right about that

[@sepheppi]

Ahh, good. I came down here to see if someone had mentioned it. Yeah Preston, come on man...After hearing rumors, throughout many years, I'm sure it was just the PROOF he needed to be sure. Plus, the seed is strong, so why the change of black hair after however many generations. (not very many, they descend from Targaryen afterall)

[@jonttopia]

I think it's also because the people in ASOIAF mostly think of heritage from the male lineage. So when a book says that Lannisters have golden hair, Ned's thoughts are "the father must be a Lannister" the mother doesn't matter in his mind. That's how I understood it but it might be a bit of a stretch

[@jameshateseverything1356]

Isn't the answer that he only saw Littlefinger as his sisters puppet, so that's why he's one of the candidates for his test with the marriages? The incident with the knife just makes it look like Littlefinger was covering up for Cersei and Jamie by silencing Bran, and instructing Littlefinger to pin it on him wouldn't be beyond cersei. I don't necessarily know if Tyrion would see Littlefinger as the one who started the war at that point, we only know that with hindsight.

[@alaraaktas7735]

Yes, great point!

[@theletterm5425]

Great argument! Although I‘m not sure if that‘s the way it‘s presented in the books. Does Tyrion think that Cersei was the one to send the cat's paw assassin?

[@richardwithanarr]

@@theletterm5425 The morning of Joffrey's wedding, he drunkenly comes to the conclusion that it was Joffrey who sent the catspaw when he receives Widow's Wail and says he's no stranger to Valyrian Steel.

[@jameshateseverything1356]

@@theletterm5425 he certainly suspects Cersei and Jamie being involved in Brans fall by the time they have breakfast together in his first POV chapter, after that the connection to the cats paw would seem apparent but I dont know if its explicitly stated.

[@MrRowntree27]

I don't get this at all, doesn't the realisation that littlefinger is not Cersei's man therefore incriminalise him further? It was Pycelle who was leaking information to Cersei...

[@memerick420]

I disagree with this being a plot hole. He acknowledges that Littlefinger is too useful to be replaced like Janos. But I also think that the Myrcella plot was specifically to try to catch Baelish red handed. Also the reason he feels comfortable taking action against Janos Slynt is because he’s not of noble birth and can more easily be replaced by a loyalist. We constantly see people of noble birth are treated more favorably, whereas people like Davos and Janos aren’t “true” nobles.

[@azursmile]

Isn't Littlefinger the lowest of the nobles though?

[@memerick420]

@@azursmile yeah but he’s still “highborn” whereas Janos is not

[@refoliation]

Publicly accusing him of a crime is one of the many options available to him, and probably the worst. What if he slipped on a puddle and broke his neck on a walk at night? In a way I appreciate that the power to just off people is generally reserved for the more villainous characters, it’s usually a good rule to follow absent any opposing forces. The plotting and character motives/actions are usually quite believable in this series but this is an exception I’d say.

[@HarshDude126]

Useful? He betrayed the Lannisters. He dragged them into a war. His actions could have destroyed their house. He is an enemy of house Lannister. Letting someone who actively works against you live makes no sense whatsoever. This is a huge plot hole.

[@will2brown50]

​@@HarshDude126 He was the only reason Cersei and Joffrey weren't couped out by Ned. As far as Tyrion is concerned, Catelyn may have been lying, he even considers it.

[@tommytomasita1599]

Tywin wouldn't leave Tyrion in charge of casterly rock that would imply he was the heir

[@amircash]

Tyrion could have been named castellan by Tywin without being named heir.

[@richardwithanarr]

//“If it is useful occupation you require, useful occupation you shall have,” his father then said. So to mark his manhood, Tyrion was given charge of all the drains and cisterns within Casterly Rock. Perhaps he hoped I’d fall into one. But Tywin had been disappointed in that. The drains never drained half so well as when he had charge of them.// Tyrion 3, ADwD It's honestly hard to pin down where Tyrion resided before the start of the story. EDIT: actually, since Lysa accused Tyrion of murdering Jon Arryn, and nobody even considered the defense, "Tyrion wasn't in King's Landing at that time" we should assume that he was at court. The Arryn household seems about as fun as the Stark household, considering that Ned was similar to Jon in opposing Robert's revelry and opulence, so I wouldn't imagine Tyrion would have spent much time with them, especially since Sweetrobin didn't seem to even recognize Tyrion, and Tyrion's own thoughts about Lysa having no appreciation for his sharp wit.

[@jeffralston1]

Wasn't Tywin at Casterly Rock before the war started? He wasn't Robert's Hand. So no need to name Tyrion anything, other than a plumber.

[@richardwithanarr]

@@jeffralston1 Yeah, he was the Warden of the West.

[@dupejesu7208]

Imp…(ly)…..😳….😂😂😂😂

[@herzimhimmel]

My understanding, although not stated in Tyrion's mind, was that they expected Petyr to bring Lysa on their side, and Tywin tries it later... As a hand of the King, Tyrion had all the support he needed and didn't feel a need to rush, didn't expect that the tings will unfold that way.

[@teblesz5783]

great point

[@SlipperyPeteClassic]

Tyrion does get comfortable pretty quickly. To be honest, I never really noticed this inconsistency until I heard about it last year.

[@PuddingAtheist]

Tyrion was having fun

[@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin]

Your timing is a bit off here. Keep in mind, Tyrion never thought that Littlefinger could bring over Lysa as he was unaware of the Lysa-Littlefinger romance. Littlefinger only reveals that he can seduce hLysa in ASoS and Tyrion is doubtful that she would come over. In ACoK, Tyrion does create a fake offer to bring Lysa, but its with the Sweetrobin-Myrcella marriage. And, again, it's a fake offer - only existing to reveal who the mole was. So, no, Tyrion never thought Littlefinger was useful in this respect. Certainly not back in ACoK.

[@gups5960]

@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin Well, Baelish was known to boast about taking both the Tully daughters' maidenheads, so Tyrion wad probably aware of that gossip. I personally think GRRM uses the Crown's crippling debt as Littlefinger's plot armour, trying to imply that the that Littlefinger is the only one keeping the debt collectors from the door. But I still think that doesn't justify Tyrion's lack of action

[@tokevarvaspolvi8999]

The thought of Janos Slynt being nearly as dangerous as Littlefinger to take out, is tbf preposterous to me. He's a muscle, not a player in the Game. He has swords, not strings and connections. I mean what's he gonna do to retaliate against Tyrion, try to take down the Lannister regime? come on. Edit: As a matter of fact, you could totally see getting rid of Slynt to precisely be a move against Littlefinger, even if Tyrion doesn't verbalize it specifically in his chapters. Not saying this is what I believe, just crossed my mind just now.

[@Nosraceroom]

I got the feeling that Tyrion was hesitant to act against Littlefinger because he knew how much of a massive debt the crown was running, and that Littlefinger was the only one who could maybe manage it

[@bekongwu602]

Tyrion would want Janos dead for many reasons. Including the simple reason that he is the easiest and less problematic person to take out his anger on. It makes sense for him to wait until he gets a good measure of Petyr Baelish. Tyrion is smart enough to know that you don’t just make a rash attempt on someone like Little finger. Other events came up, to distract him from focusing on little finger. Tyrion is not yet like Tywin at this point. He becomes more like Tywin as the story continued. Yes Tywin would have chopped off the heads of every council member . That is the Tywin way, that was not Tyrion. Tyrion knew his limitations even as hand of the King. He had to know who was working with little finger, it is not as simple as just killing him. The man made himself very useful to a lot of people, that is how to stay alive in a capital- being cautious.

[@Jooooger]

Exactly. "See father, I learn my lessons" Tyrion says much later when he decides to have Bronn make Singer Stew. When Tyrion arrives he doesn't quite understand the game.

[@greaterFool3765]

The main argument for is, that there is no good reason to get rid of Littlefinger. It won't stop the war, because Ned is dead and the North is independent. So Tyrion probably thinks that LF is a controllable risk, and that's better than a new unknown risk. And Littlefinger can make money out of thin air (or at least, that's what everyone believes).

[@0816M3RC]

Making rash actions against Littlefinger is probably the best way to get rid of him though. If you try to play the game of thrones with Littlefinger he will probably outplay you so it's best to just get rid of him and deal with the consequences later. It reminds me of that scene from the show where Cersei has her guards act like they were going to kill Littlefinger only to call them off at the last second. I know that she did that to demonstrate her power but she probably should have killed him.

[@greaterFool3765]

@@0816M3RC but you can only say that in hindsight. You should not forget, that lf is valuable for the crown as master of coins. And everyone thinks that you can get rid of him anytime you want, because he is lowborn. So why now?

[@Anhnguyen-zg7sm]

Littlefinger is more useful alive than dead. They were at the outbreak of war, so it is more beneficial to keep LF around until at least after the war. LF proved his worth in successfully propelling house Tyrell into the marriage pack with house Lannister. Removing Janos Slynt is more for the reason of taking control of the Gold Cloak.

[@mankytoes]

Tyrion getting offered a freebie from the prostitute, and rejecting it, was one of my first big "what a load of shit" moments in the show, especially having read the books and knowing he's arguably at his worst at that point.

[@benl2140]

I kind of thought that Tyrion turning down the freebie meant that he had erectile dysfunction or something, but I dunno.

[@badgasaurus4211]

@@benl2140 Think that’s reaching

[@theflashgordon193]

how tyrion act with prostitute in the book ? he just has been betrayed by one

[@kedrprao]

@@benl2140 i think you are trying to impose your own condition on a fictional character

[@ahmadazem4167]

Tyrion in the show didn't get the tysha bomb dropped in him, different character

[@jpa5038]

That's not a plot hole. Tyrion exacts revenge when he can. He never had a clear opportunity to get revenge against Littlefinger while Littlefinger was still in the capital. After the Blackwater, all Tyrion's energy was focused on figuring out who sent Mandon Moore to kill him and then to keep Shae safe, then to figure out who framed him for the murder of Joffrey, then to escape, then to... etc.

[@HarshDude126]

No, this is a plot hole. This isn't just about Tyrion's personal grudge. Littlefinger orchestrated the conflict between the Lannisters and the Starks, which led to the War of the Five Kings. His actions could have destroyed House Lannister. This isn't something you deal with in secret. Tyrion should have informed everyone of this the moment he arrived in King's Landing and had Littlefinger publicly executed for his crimes.

[@jbush264]

​@HarshDude126 Yeah seriously and Tywin even tells Tyrion to kill either Varys, Little finger, or Pycelle if they appear treacherous.

[@furtsmagee1513]

It takes 1 second to tell someone to kill little finger

[@Jooooger]

Cersei: "My brother would have killed him", Ned: "Your brother....OR YOUR LOVER?". Cersei: "What? No that's weird. My lover is Tygwick the Blonde, a Lannister guard here at the castle. Why would you think it was Jaime?" Ned: "...I just assumed...Wait, but you did kill Jon Aryn and send that Catspaw to kill Bran, right?" Cersei: "No, that's insane! Why would you jump to that conclusion? You're a pretty shit detective, aren't you Eddard?" Ned "...I'm going back to Winterfell."

[@akmonra]

Maybe Ned was projecting. N+L=J

[@helpconflict9851]

@@akmonra B+L=J

[@akmonra]

@@helpconflict9851 somehow, that's even more gross

[@martijnstuart95]

@@akmonra How about Benjen + L = J?

[@akmonra]

@@martijnstuart95 So *that's* why he got sent to the Wall!

[@Texmechs]

I always got the feeling that Tyrion didn't spend that much time at court. But he spent ENOUGH time to know who these people are. And Tywin didn't just tell him to get rid of Petyr. He basically told him to kill Pycell, Petyr and Varys.

[@alanpennie8013]

He was absolutely right, especially about Varys, who was actually the most dangerous enemy he had.

[@dbilly121]

He didn't tell him to kill Pycelle, Pycelle was firmly in Tywin's pocket

[@phnargg]

Same, I think it’s implied that Tyrion spent his time travelling before he became Hand. Which makes sense, if he has no position of authority, no real reason he HAS to be there, why not? So he probably stopped by KL often enough to see his family, but was away on fun adventures more often than not. Never got the sense that he really lived there or participated in court, but was around just enough to kinda know who these people are. I think when he was telling Catelyn that Baelish is a known liar, he was talking more about gossip, like that Baelish is the type to over-exaggerate his sex life. I don’t think this means they suspect the true depth of Littlefinger’s schemes and lies. Tywin wanted Tyrion to root out any council members who weren’t loyal to the Lannisters. So he was actually NOT supposed to harm Pycelle, who was indeed a Lannister loyalist, just also an informer for Cersei. The smart political move would’ve been to redirect Pycelle, simply tell him “You’re working for me now.” But Tyrion was disgusted by Pycelle’s role in the murder of Jon Arryn, and wanted to punish him for that. Tyrion wants to rule as hand according to his own sense of justice. He doesn’t want to just do what Tywin said. He doesn’t make purely strategic moves either. What he wants to do is “clean up” and get rid of amoral actors.

[@sparingpickle4918]

Pycell was his biggest fan and one of his most loyal servants. Zero chance he said to kill him.

[@ciaduck]

"Tyrion is the most moral man in Westeros." - D&D

[@alexeiharp7676]

Well he might be , Starks are more about honor than moral after all. Tyrion while doing discutable things in conscient of context and others feelings.

[@BattyButtercup]

Podrick: *sings very sadly* Brienne: "IS PODRICK A JOKE TO YOU??"

[@annedavis3340]

"Look at his FACE!" -D&D

[@robertmaybeth3434]

But I think Brienne of Tarth is the most moral man in Westeros. She's certainly the only true knight.

[@mappingshaman5280]

@@alexeiharp7676 so you're going to say tyrion is more moral than Samwell Tarly? Berric Dondarrion? Jon Snow? I mean if we go by the books he isn't even more moral than Janos slynt.

[@Pikepaw]

Allar Deem is the key to the entire series! Tyrion knew if he stayed in Kings Landing he would destroy Tyrion right away. An even more dangerous man than Sir Ten Goodmen

[@martoncsepregi7099]

If we could get Allar Deem working....

[@thoughtsuponatime847]

@@martoncsepregi7099 I think I can.

[@evancappello9288]

I think, as a leader and smart man, Ned made an educated guess…then he confronted…then got confirmation from Cersei…so to me that’s not a plot hole at all. It’s equivalent to an “Ah-Ha” moment IMO

[@rd0676]

I think what Preston’s point is that coming to the conclusion that Cersei is banging her brother is soooo far out of left field that it goes beyond basic deduction (especially since Ned isn’t exactly the smartest egg in the basket)

[@CharlesFreck]

@@rd0676 Ned kind of gets led to that conclusion with Littlefinger though. He's not really figuring it out for himself, Littlefinger is just making him think he figured it out. My impression is that Petyr knew the whole time what the conclusion was, and he just needed to push Ned along in that direction to get him to make the connections. He wanted Ned to get rid of the Lannisters, because then Petyr would have a great ally. Instead, he has to quickly betray Ned and desperately hope that Tyrion doesn't know about the lie with the knife and that the Lannister's might like him for betraying Ned. His actions make very little sense if he's hoping to get the Lannister's onside. Unless you think Littlefinger was just hanging around for the excitement of it all.

[@evancappello9288]

@@CharlesFreck @RD0676 I actually could agree with both of you on that. I, being a Stark fan, like to give Ned the credit…but I didn’t think about the little finger influence as much, and that’s a very good point.

[@alexturlais8558]

@@rd0676 Ned isn't stupid, half the monarchs of the last 300 years have been banging their brothers and sisters, incest isn't too much of a leap.

[@alexwilliams1048]

@@rd0676 When you are in a room with two people who frequently have sex, you can kind of tell.

[@labyrinthwomb]

When it comes to Ned's jump in logic from adultery to incest, I think the lynchpin is that both Cersei and Jamie were unaccounted for the day Bran fell out of the tower. Because of the additional attempt on Bran's life, Ned assumes Bran saw something. Because everyone else was out hunting, it must have been something with Cersei and Jamie. I suppose Bran could have overheard Cersei telling Jamie about her adultery with someone else, but that probably wouldn't warrant the 2 death attempts (the second attempt was not by Cersei and Jamie, but Ned doesn't know that).

[@casey9439]

Tyrion has a special reason for hating infanticide. It nearly happened to him. He has every reason to dispose Janos Slynt. He also probably knew the mother VERY closely.

[@somewhathandsome5288]

My theory on this plothole is that GRRM, while writing the second book, realized how valuable Littlefinger really was as a character and potentially having him cut off would've completely wasted his potential. Because when you think about it, Littlefinger being confronted about the dagger at this point in the story could've forced him to leave the story altogether in the second book (i.e. get killed, go to trial and get killed, run away and never return). Thus to prevent his departure, he tried to have us focus on other aspects such as Janos Slynt and the 3 Wedding Proposals so that he could keep him in and continue to influence the plot and deepen the storytelling even more.

[@DivingDog0]

Surely GRRM is a good enough writer to have LF get out of that scrutiny though? "I didn't tell Catelyn it was yours." "I never saw Catelyn. She was all the way in Winterfell, wasn't she?" "I told Catelyn it was yours. Was I mistaken? What a terrible misunderstanding." "I told Catelyn it was yours because you weren't here for her to raise a stink over. It avoided conflict. How was I to know you'd randomly cross paths when there was a brace of loyal men next to her to overpower your guards? What am I? The Three-Eyed Raven?" It's not a gotcha question.

[@hollin220]

Thats a good point

[@TheNord06]

@@DivingDog0 he might not have confronted LF because it wasn't a gotcha question. Tyrion surely knows LF isn't a fool either and wouldn't use his own dagger. I still agree that this is a plothole, but I think main reason is we don't get enough of Tyrion's thinking process about it in the book. A simple line of thought like "oh, he probably will snake his way out of the dagger incident, and boy we sure do need money to fight this war, so father might get angry if I kill him" etc. etc. Now this has to move the Lannister gold running out plot earlier in the books, but imo it is not that critical of a point at that moment iirc. Also because they know LF for so long, he might be already on the Lannister watchlist. Problem with all of this GRRM did not spent one more paragraph to tell this stuff, so we have to assume everything.

[@67tedward]

@@DivingDog0 The fact that GRRM acknowledged Tyrion thought about the connection between Littlefinger and the Dagger while talking to Littlefinger, while GRRM also didn't write any kind of excuse to why Tyrion wouldn't just kill Littlefinger outright (I don't think it would have even been hard to make an excuse up) makes me think GRRM intended Tyrion to just not want to kill him. Like he thought this over and decided on that. Perhaps he didn't realize at the time that it was not an entirely logical decision.

[@theM4R4T]

Pretty certain that Littlefinger was planned as a major character from the very start, so no.

[@theletterm5425]

I think George in generally tries to have his cake and eat it too when it comes to Littlefinger. One the one hand LF is supposed to be „everybody's friend“ and „no threat to anyone“ but on the other hand he‘s a known liar and has wormed his way into becoming Lord Protector of the friggin Vale. I get that it's supposed to be about how he's not a great fighter and doesn't have any armies but especially someone like Tyrion should know that control of the King's coffers, plus a huge spie network are way more important than armies when it comes to playing the game of thrones.

[@otto_jk]

It's because the former are how most people see him and the latter is how he really is

[@67tedward]

@@otto_jk Yeah I think the show makes him look more suspicious than he's intended to appear from the get go, which in turn affects how people read him in the book.

[@otto_jk]

@@67tedward Aidan Gillen has kinda shifty face which the moustache and beard don't really help. In the show it immediately seems like he has plans.

[@anamericanthinks472]

Cup of coffee and Preston Jacobs to start my work day...

[@fredfreeman2515]

Sad life

[@anamericanthinks472]

@@fredfreeman2515 Naaa, it was hawaiian coffee, and pretty dang good ☕

[@fredfreeman2515]

@@anamericanthinks472 never had it so I can’t speak on it.

[@sayapunyecite]

in the show baelish even mocks cersei for being incestous in her face before cersei put a dagger on her throat. this is very stupid of him and didnt make any sense. cersei is extremely powerful, wtf is he thinking mocking her like that

[@TD0150]

I'm pretty sure it was his way of saying he could blackmail her over it if he so pleased.

[@dustingaethje1332]

@@TD0150 Can't blackmail someone if you're dead. That was a dumb move.

[@badgasaurus4211]

@@dustingaethje1332 “Power is power” xd

[@JonJon4351]

I don't think it is ever stated where Tyrion actually lived before AGOT. I always assumed it was Casterly Rock, and that he would often visit King's Landing. He seems to know ABOUT the Small Council members as someone who would visit alot.

[@breannstoner1419]

Right! In A Dance With Dragons, Tyrion tells people he’s from Lannisport as part of his Hugor Hill backstory, because he knows that city better than King’s Landing, so it will be more believable.

[@hopedixon2133]

I agree...he definitely lived at Casterly Rock until his Uncle Gerion left on his quest to Valyria to find Brightroar in 291 when Tyrion was 18...so we have seven years of uncertainty. On his 23rd birthday (probably 296), Jaime gives him a mare, perhaps this was when he moved to King's Landing. I do wonder why he wanted to move there, I guess just because it is convenient for his lifestyle (whoring, drinking, reading) and I assume mainly for Jaime, the only family he likes that he has left. So maybe he has been in King's Landing but just hasn't given a shit about anything but tourneys and travelling when it comes to court life until Tywin is Hand...and Tyrion does seem to have a weird hatred/obsession for his father...when fire and ice mate, I'd say, a heart in conflict.

[@ceilingfanenthusiast6041]

@@hopedixon2133 Does Tyrion actually whore that much in the books (prior to his exile)? I recently heard someone say something like "he hadn't had sex in months" before Shae. Or maybe it was before the whores in winterfell?

[@NoahNelson-Smith]

He hadn’t had sex in a year, since he’d left King’s Landing with Robert.

[@hopedixon2133]

@@ceilingfanenthusiast6041 Sorry, I literally just saw your reply...but you're right, we don't actually know how much whoring he does before hand just as we don't know exactly where he lives...or anything else about that time period for him, quite frankly. When I think back and really examine Tyrion's familiarity with King's Landing, it doesn't seem strong, although it is a large city to be fair. For instance, he was unfamiliar with Chataya's brothel, a strike against previous whoring. I'm guessing Tyrion was wherever Tywin wanted him... probably Casterly Rock or Lannisport. Personally, I think Lannisport is a better guess, Tyrion as a Casterly Rock Lannister might be a giant lionfish in a not so small pond but who knows. I think that wherever he resided, it may have included a more humble or "boring" life because Tyrion Lannister certainly craves power; his temporary Handship cemented that within him. Perhaps he only begins whoring because he is unsatisfied with his life, and is lonely. Random side note...do you think Valyrian steel might just be dragonbone? In one of the books Tyrion reads from Winterfell says that dragonbone is stronger than steel, yet lighter and more flexible, and of course, impervious to fire...sounds like it to me. So all one needs for more Valyrian steel swords is a dragon...dead or alive. Whoever holds the Red Keep just got a whole lot richer.

[@lorddelibird]

Tyrion was probably at court so he could be as far away from his father as possible.

[@theavocado6061]

I’ll take it a step further. Nothing involving the dagger makes sense. The fact Joffrey hired the catspaw, arming the guy with a dagger from the armory, none of it makes much sense really.

[@StrayCatInTheStreets]

Littlefinger "the dagger belonged to Slynt". There, plothole fixed with some dirt and a shovel

[@sagebias2251]

That might just work. But Slint was a moron and wouldn’t kill bran.

[@troyhoggart9079]

I think it would have been really amazing to have Tyrion and Littlefinger in a cold war of plots and have them exchange moves with Littlefinger positioning himself in such a way that he can't be gotten rid of until after the wedding and then frames Tyrion just before he can be killed. This would have made the death of the king have an even greater pay off for the reader, especially since Littlefinger literally steals Tyrion's wife.

[@AVerySillySausage]

18:50 About this whole discussion. It always bothered me that the white washing of Tyrion in the show had a knock on affect for all the characters. It makes anybody who dislikes him in the show just come across worse because there is no possible way that anyone who talks him wouldn't become fond of him unless they are just evil. It makes more sense in the book how he could rub people the wrong way. It affected Cersei the most, I find Cersei much more interesting in the books because on one hand she is kind of even more evil and spiteful, but you can also understand more why she hates Tyrion and how she sees him. Book Cersei genuinely believes Tyrion killed Joffrey and would be willing or even eager to hurt her and her other children, she actually fears him. In the show it just comes across that she hates him because she hates him and doesn't care whether he is a threat or whether he is guilty of anything.

[@tripledigit4835]

I never thought about Ned's jump in logic, how just because Joffrey and Cersei's other children are blonde, that doesn't mean they are born from an incestuous relationship with Jaime. Sure, she is having an affair but it doesn't mean it's with Jaime, which is what a logical person would think. Maybe Eddard's hatred of Jaime is why he thinks it's Jamie's children, since he has no honour is makes sense for him to do it or something

[@YungJaime73]

That's very true. It could have been with any blonde guy. It's not like Lannisters are the only blonde people in King's Landing. And even then it could have been Lancel for all Ned knew at the time.

[@Altorin]

Joffrey and Cersei's other children? Phrasing! Lol

[@johnr797]

Wasn't that already a pretty prevalent rumour though?

[@tripledigit4835]

@@johnr797 true, but 1. they were Lannisters and Lannisters aren’t known for incest 2. Many rumours that are spread about people are false 3. Eddard doesn’t seem like the guy to listen and entertain rumours in kings landing

[@tripledigit4835]

@@Dpate10 I don’t think it’s a natural reaction to assume someone is having an affair with their brother rather than a person not related by blood

[@Jooooger]

If you haven't noticed, becoming Hand seems to increase naivety 10-fold and decrease IQ by a good 20 points. It explains Tyrion's blunders, it explains Ned's blunders, it's almost like a running joke to be honest. That being said, I believe Tyrion was planning Littlefinger's execution, the excuse was he was waiting to find someone suitable to replace him as Master of Coin since, to be fair, LF is great at his job.

[@lukaslambs5780]

With Ned jumping to the twincest, there was always a rumor about Jaime and Cersi being lovers. So it’s very possible that was in the back of his mind and that he was the only blonde guy he could think of that she was close to.

[@diegofiggie965]

Well, Tyrion does in a way attempt to kill littlefinger. He sends him in a diplomatic mission to Highgarden. His rationale, if I remember correctly, was that in the worst case scenario it would be a suicide mission for littlefinger (which of course he is ok with) and, in the best case scenario, it would result in a much needed Lannister-Tyrell alliance (which is what ends up happening). In a way he did try to dispose of him. Also, I think it is mentioned that littlefinger is more useful alive than dead, although I don't know if it was Tyrion who said it or someone else. Since littlefinger is not highborne, nobody thinks he's that much of a threat, including Tyrion, but they do all think he is very useful.

[@Cassius4]

Tyrion removed Janos because it was one of the things Tywin told Tyrion to do while he was Hand.😊

[@andrewb2156]

Thank you

[@Buford_T_Justice1]

Tyrion just kind of forgot about Littlefinger.

[@theCarbonFreeze]

Underrated comment

[@rd0676]

Too soon 😓 rip

[@therogueprince1861]

The thing is, that if Tyrion meant to move against Littlefinger, Littlefinger would've known and would've done something, the control that Peter has of the goldcloaks maybe gave Tyrion pause to move against him, and also the war got in the way, and Ser Mandon Moore did try to kill Tyrion, so Littlefinger did want to get rid of Tyrion, it's just that Tyrion got so much in his hands he didn't got around to plot a way to get at Littlefinger.

[@alanpennie8013]

Littlefinger didn't just need to kill Tyrion, he needed to kill him immediately. That or make himself so useful to Tyrion that Tyrion would have reason to spare him.

[@DrZaius3141]

10:30 "Maybe Tyrion was out of it because he was [engaging with ladies of the night]" - In the books, he specifically states that he hadn't had intercourse for years. The whoring is only added in the books. Resonably, Tyrion was deliberately kept out of politics due to the most powerful members of his family (i.e. his father and sister) hated him. It stands to reason he was mostly a tutor for his niece and nephews and spending most of his time in the libraries to read. Littlefinger was above his paygrade and books were always more interesting to Booktryion.

[@bram_412]

LOVE how they addressed the plot hole by digging it deeper and wider. The dagger is simply sentient and burdened with glorious purpose

[@thisguy8106]

It bugs me SO BAD that Tyrion only thinks "he can't touch him"... Like..why?.. Smh.

[@thisguy8106]

@Abdul Jalloh touche'...

[@oscarfellows5226]

To be fair, it might not be about his power but about him being too valuable. Wars are expensive, and Littlefinger brings in a tonne of cash for the crown.

[@mrmaat]

Lannisters were trying to recruit the Arryns to join the crown during the war. Littlefinger has dirt on everything and everyone. Littlefinger is the lynchpin for the Crown and the Lannister debts. A dead Littlefinger is really bad for the Lannister crown. Tyrion, in AGOT and CoK, is interested in the success of his nephew’s rule.

[@alanpennie8013]

Yes it's insane. Particularly since when Tywin made Tyrion acting Hand he specifically told him to put Littlefinger (or Pycelle or Varys) to death if he suspected that "these councillors are playing us false".

[@Sunflx27]

Didn't Tyrion live in Casterly Rock before becoming Hand? I don't recall the books mentioning he was at court before the start of the series

[@TheEnecca]

i thought so too. maybe he visited jaime from time to time since he seems pretty close to him at the start (but maybe im remembering the show). he wouldnt realy know the council members though.

[@alanpennie8013]

I don't know that this is canon, but we have to remember Tywin's loathing of Tyrion, so it may be that Tyrion was at Casterly Rock when Tywin was Hand, but at KL when he wasn't.

[@trndom]

Interesting point, although sadly lacking that extra tad of tinfoil. I've always chalked that one up to gradual irrelevance. At that point the driving narrative and motivation of the war has changed from a retaliation against a rival house to the defense of the Loyal Kingdoms against the Northern aggressor. One could see it as a plot hole or just another one of the moments where Tyrion overestimates his own abilities and underestimates the players involved. There is enough room for readers to fill in the gaps on their own or point out the gap as presented. As always, a fun discussion, keep up the quality work Preston.

[@itsmainelyyou5541]

It was also because Tyrion didn't do anything to save Tysha, he partook of her rape. He has such self loathing about it.

[@celebalert5616]

Neds logic jump was especially egregious when you realize Jon Arryn never discovered it either he was just researching some other thing in that book and his search for the illegitimate children was totally unrelated to that. Just one big coincidence.

[@kingad8869]

I always imagine an alternative universe where Cersei isn't with Jaime and is just confused by Ned's accusation.

[@tripledigit4835]

I may be wrong, but didn't Stannis tell Jon Arryn? Or did Stannis want to tell Arryn but was too late to do so?

[@celebalert5616]

@@kingad8869 lmao that would be in classic 😂 and no doubt in that universe everyone would actually believe the claim

[@celebalert5616]

@@tripledigit4835 hmmm ok maybe I'm confused about the timeline

[@cbob213]

@CELEB ALERT! Littlefinger nudged Stannis to investigate Jaime and Cersei's bastards because he thought he would tell Robert. However, Stannis did not think Bobby B would believe him so he told Jon Arryn instead. Littlefinger then manipulated Lysa to kill Jon Arryn and Stannis thought it was Cersei or Jaime so he bailed from KL

[@MdB92]

Yeah I fully agree. I noticed this as well. The catspaw's Valyrian steel dagger (and the fact that someone is clearly playing a sick game behind-the-scenes using it) should constantly be on Tyrion's mind and it's rather unbelievable Tyrion just 'forgets' about it later instead of trying to fully get to the bottom of it, especially given everything that has happened (someone managed to put the blaim for the attempt on Bran's life on him [while he did have nothing to do with that and is appalled by it] due to which he _almost died_ (!), and all hell broke loose because of it), since this totally does not fit to his character (his intelligence, his investigative nature, and his 'hunger for revenge' when someone harmed/wronged him).

[@loriannwhite8384]

‘I have friends at court’. Janos Sylent Friends At Court: Doubtful.

[@liviavalverde1599]

Wasn't Tyrion in charge of Casterly Rock's sewers or something like that? That would explain why he doesn't know the people in King's Landing very well

[@mrmaat]

Character missing opportunities or acting unwisely do not equate to plot holes. People in fiction, as in reality, make mistakes, underestimate their opponents and fail. Perhaps Tyrion was genuinely concerned for the good of the realm and the financial state of his house without the accounting wizardry.

[@josiahcmiller]

Then why not mention that. Then there would be an illogical decision made based on contributing factors.

[@mrmaat]

@@josiahcmiller Because good authors like GRRM show, not tell. Motivations in fiction are more compelling if left open to interpretation.

[@willkp50]

@@mrmaat but Tyrion barely even thinks about the catspaw dagger. Even tho littlefinger’s lie nearly got him killed and started a war. Surely he would have a few questions to ask, even if just to himself?

[@ahmadazem4167]

​@@mrmaatthat's not what showing not telling means,Tyrion is a POV character we see his thoughts, we see him thinking about little finger, he should think about why he isn't going after little finger

[@PhosphorQ]

Now I really want to read a novella about the King's Landing crew. Jon Arryn, Stannis, Tyrion, Lysa, Renly, Jaime, Cersei, Robert, Littlefinger, Varys.... I can't imagine a dull moment.

[@julioacceus253]

If I recall in the show, Catlyn did not state to Tyrion that Littlefinger told her about the Dagger. Maybe George working on the show as a writer decided to clean that detail out. Now Tyrion clearly had no lead to find out who framed him. Worse it happens twice when he's accused of murdering the King.

[@artos607]

I mean Tyrion acts like he learns a lot about Littlefinger in ACOK because he probably didn't take him very seriously until he tried to get him killed in AGOT.

[@tonysled6796]

There are rumours about the incest throughout the novel leading up to Ned figuring it out....and the thing is Ned takes rumours very seriously when it comes to Robert's marriage because he notices how unhappy his friend is and how dysfunctional Cersei and him are. Jamie and Cersei do not hide their relationship well because they believe themselves superior. If we consider how attached at the hip they are and how Ned is already assessing Joffrey to marry Sansa we can figure that Jamie and Cersei were the parents. the problem is introduced later when Jamie finds out that Cersei sleeps around with many people, so many that he cannot figure that she has a type even. That would have been Ned's main problem. If she is known to sleep around with everyone then Jamie's proximity to her could have been a clue along with Joffrey's insanity...Littlefinger nudges him with info as well

[@Jooooger]

When are there any rumors in AGOT about the incest? That comes later after Ned outs the secret in court...If there had actually been credible rumors while Robert was alive the game would've been up already.

[@tonysled6796]

@@Jooooger Littlefinger makes comments....and Cersei cant stop talking about Jamie and vice versa....when Tyrion becomes hand after Ned is killed those rumours have more legs but i think the talk in the high born circles of Kings Landing is that the two are banging. Ned also finds out Robert hits her and all that shit

[@tonysled6796]

@@Jooooger Littlefinger and Varys make comments about the King and Cersei's relationship I believe. And Pycelle says a lot to Ned. Renly might have also said some things. I'd have to go back and look but I do believe they were together quite a bit and that stood out. Ned suspicions were up after the King's visit to Winterfell and Bran's fall and Jon Arryn's death. The Lannisters made no attempt to confide in him their trust...whereas all these other players did.

[@Jooooger]

@@tonysled6796 Ned was suspicious that Jon Arryn's death, Bran's fall, and the Catspaw were related, but he didn't know how. And it turns out, he was wrong. They were not related at all. Lysa killed Jon in an unrelated plot, Jaime pushed Bran, and supposedly Joffrey sent the Catspaw. Ned was way off base. Ned had no proof it was Jaime when he confronted Cersei in the Godswood. No one mentioned any incest until Stannis's letter and Ned's courtroom accusation made it public knowledge. Either Ned is an excellent guesser/bluffer, he put other facts together when he was not the POV, or its just an oversight.

[@tonysled6796]

@@Jooooger I dont know about that. Varys Littlefinger and a lot of people comment that Cersei and Jamie are attached at the hip and go everywhere together. Which is suspicious because it occurs outside the order of things and tradition. Robert Baratheon is the King so Jamie should be protecting him....but he takes that as an excuse to find Cersei more times than not. I'm not making it up these comments did reach Ned's ear. They weren't explicit but I do not think it is a huge leap considering how dysfunctional Robert and Cersei's relationship is which Ned witnesses firsthand paired with how insane Joffrey is and how brazen Jamie is in his distaste for the king and his mirroring of Cersei. Ned may have taken a leap but this leap was supported by information provided by his time in Kings Landing nudged by Varys and Littlefinger and what he sees for himself. The events are not related but they point to the Lannisters benefitting from Arryn's death, Robert not having a legit heir....

[@JDoe-ox6ie]

The funniest thing about this is that Preston thinks Littlefinger wasn't in charge of the Goldcloaks before Janos Slynt and during Bronn's time in charge of them. The only one with as much deeply engrained influence in King's Landing as Littlefinger, that is as widely spread as his influence, is Varys. And Varys and Littlefinger are both able to use this influence to orchestrate plots to completely destroy the kingdom, show the capability of being able to kill the Royal family or the Hand of the King at any time. Also, the reason he wants to get rid of Janos Slynt is that he's easier to remove, and is already bought and paid for. People wouldn't fight back and try to kill or cripple Tyrion if he got rid of Janos Slynt and replaced him with Bronn, as opposed to him trying to find where Littlefinger is at the moment and hunt him down, without managing to tip off any of the people on his payroll.

[@cardenova]

Exactly lol just because Tyrion is “hand” and outranks Littlefinger does not mean he has more political capital than Littlefinger. That’s kind of the point of the book: the concept and trappings of power. Tyrion realizes the hierarchy is anything but straightforward.

[@PurpleAlogia]

I was always obsessed with what’s happened to Rhaella Targaryen‘s body. Years ago, I loved the idea of her being Quaithe. She‘s one of those typical lost mothers in epic fantasy / science fiction. Nobody‘s ever surprised that Belladonna Took, Primula Brandybuck, Gilraen, Celebrian and Padme have to be dead or disappeared for the hero to work,

[@hopedixon2133]

Interesting...that's a Quaithe I haven't heard before and it certainly is possible. I know, Rhaella is rarely mentioned, thought of, spoken of...it's always Aerys, Rhaegar, and Daenerys...you're right, once again, the sacrificial mother. I love when she is described as "mindful of her duty"...for some reason I think of Stannis Baratheon doing his marriage bed duties, and laugh. He is intentionally one of the most hilarious characters in the series. If you've seen Boardwalk Empire, he reminds me of Agent Van Alden lol

[@PurpleAlogia]

@@hopedixon2133 Stannis reminds me of a lot of awful Dads I know. I also forgot Lily Potter, of course. Rhaella was also in love with Bonifer Hasty once. That’s probably the only personal thing we know about her. Why do all hero‘s mums suffer a horrible fate? I just find Rhaella intriguing. We only hear about her from Barristan and Jaime I think. I think Jaime definitely respected her. And Cersei wanted to be like her. So, maybe there was even a sort of replacement mother figure for the twins. And Rhaella was also close to Joanna Lannister when she was alive.

[@will2brown50]

Tyrion knows little finger holds the gold cloaks, he knows little finger has money. Little finger and Slynt can't be compared. Slynts authority comes from his appointment, likely by little finger, not from any personal power. Little finger has spies, pays the gold cloaks, mercenaries and perhaps most obviously, little finger knew tyrion knew, and would be prepared for it. Tyrion's power is not secure at all.

[@sagebias2251]

What is the textual evidence that Tyrion lived in kings landing before the war? I can’t remember where this is mentioned.

[@Theodosius_fan]

The reason little finger can’t be killed is that he is the only one able to stop the bankruptcy of the crown

[@darksaint0124]

The reason Ned works out the incest is because of the attack on Bran. Jamie and Cersei were the only ones who stayed behind and they would only try to kill Bran if he saw them. This is super simple stuff that I remember from reading the books years ago.

[@ErbBetaPatched]

In the show Tyrion definitely knows Littlefinger framed him. In his first small council meeting he looks at him and talks about how much he has to be thankful for.

[@derikc24]

in his chapter he says "his father had him hidden beneath a Rock" he didn't grow up in KL

[@garlantyrell8030]

Can’t believe now how I overlooked that but you guys are right. After enduring everything Tyrion did due to Littlefinger’s lie, the fact that he didn’t kill him is beyond me.

[@UTU]

I don't recall Tyrion being at court before the first book, he was head of the sewers at his home...

[@BubblegumCrash332]

I waited for my morning commute to listen. Got my coffee bring on the Preston gold ☕☕👍👍

[@amynurss1375]

And again, another great meeting of the minds!

[@benl2140]

Huh. I was kind of under the impression that Tyrion was living at Casterly Rock before the events of the books. I remember that there was a suit of armour specifically made for Tyrion, but it's sitting in Casterly Rock, so Tyrion has to make do with whatever pieces of armour he can find (which, of course, don't fit him very well). You'd think that, if he were living in King's Landing, he'd have that suit of armour brought over at some point.

[@elisebrodeur-jacobs5215]

And now the dagger shows up in House of the Dragon and it is inscribed with the prophecy of Ice and Fire. Hahaha.

[@TheQeegs]

I think if it was like in the show where (as far as we know) Catelyn doesn’t tell Tyrion that Littlefinger told her about the dagger, that would fix everything

[@alanpennie8013]

It's not often mentioned, but it was ridiculous that Robert retained Varys as master of whisperers after his betrayal of Aerys demonstrated his treachery.

[@KabbalahSherry]

Well I might have given him a pass too, considering Aeyrs was a complete madman, and Varys in betraying Aerys, helped to save the realm. Ultimately, Robert just hated the Targs more than he mistrusted people like Varys I guess. lol

[@Ashbrash1998]

@@KabbalahSherry He also rehired Barristen Selmy, the kingsguard of the Targaryens who was injured during the sack of KL. Robert just isn't a logical person and I think he just stopped caring when Lyanna died and he became king.

[@rjustaguy3248]

From Wiki: Upon arriving at King's Landing to serve as Hand of the King while Lord Tywin Lannister is in the field, Tyrion Lannister realizes Petyr is more dangerous than he had previously known.[8] Tyrion learns about Petyr's past, learning how Petyr came to be on the small council, naming Petyr a "master juggler" when referring to his skill at finances, and noting on the fact that Petyr, due to his low birth and the way he presents himself, is not seen as a threat by anyone.[9] Realizing Petyr has many of his own men placed into multiple positions, Tyrion decides not to make a move against Petyr concerning the lie he told about Tyrion's involvement in the attack on Bran Stark's life, until he can find a way to replace those men with his own.[9]

[@nickchambers3935]

You seem very confident that Tyrion had been living at King's Landing before the events of the books, but I'm not sure if that's true. Where is this stated to be the case?

[@mappingshaman5280]

it's not directly stated but its heavily implied. Why is tyrion with the royal procession to winterfell? The royal procession to winterfell consisted of people at court.

[@joshuabowen6919]

​@@mappingshaman5280and at the start of the book Tywin is lord of Casterly Rock so I'm sure neither Tywin or Tyrion would want Tyrion at Casterly Rock

[@nandisaand5287]

What had always bothered me to no end is all these royal families that had been in power for a thousand years, yet during the course of the books multiple Houses were extinguished. Also, Roberts Rebellion ends with the death of Arys, yet Robert keeps multiple members of his Small Council and Kingsguard.

[@KrisCasey4]

glad you guys are discussing A Song of Ice and Fire, even though I know you can discuss whatever you like

[@zacrusk5274]

I remember Tyrion was thinking about replacing all little fingers people over time? Maybe after he did that he would take him out

[@dekarmeryalmar8774]

Yea he thought of that to do after the battle with stannis by then LF was out of his reach

[@artos607]

Yeah Tyrion not killing LF is crazy. Littlefinger brags about how none of his men wear his sigil, meaning their only ties to him are covert, they only serve him out of mutual benefit, they aren't gonna go avenge him if Tyrion kills him.

[@cbob213]

Love these Podcast's / Video's. Keep up the good work fellas!

[@heyzeuscreestow9394]

The thing about tyrion being dark in essos makes so much sense. My dude just lost everything he had. He killed his father, a lover, lost his power, wealth, and spent a hot minute in a box on a ship.

[@tomasgirardi1569]

11:00 wasnt tyrion in casterly rock before the books?

[@ryanratchford2530]

In the show Tyrion never finds out that Little Finger framed him via the knife. Guess it’s a similar plot hole that Tyrion should have asked why she thought he was a suspect

[@MizzMDN11]

Hey Carmine (and Preston), in regards to Tyrion's drastic change after the the death of Tywin and Shae, you should watch a video called Why Omitting the Tysha Confession Ruins Tyrion's Character Arc by Macabre Storytelling. It's a fairly well known video in the fandom so you guys might've already seen it, but if your buddy hasn't it you should tell him to watch it, it really does a good job of breaking down exactly how poorly the show starts portraying Tyrion after he leaves King's Landing, and how it makes much more sense (of course) for him to be a bit fucked up like he is in the books.

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

Ironically enough, I've spoken to Macabre Storytelling about his video. Won't go into detail but I pretty much agree with a good chunk of what he talks about. Very good video on his end

[@MizzMDN11]

@@OfficialRedTeamReview 👍

[@gaghhuh2943]

I mean it's kinda obvious that Tyrion considers Cersei his main enemy- he's trying to get rid of people that he thinks are more loyal to her than to him- Janos and Pycelle and from his point of view she is much more powerful and dangerous than Littlefinger. He needs to get rid of Janos not because he betrayed Ned but because he needs the gold cloaks led by someone who is on his side rather than on Cersei's. If I only knew what he knows then I would be more afraid of who would take Littlefinger's place if I killed him than of Littlefinger himself. I would see someone who only does things for himself less dangerous than someone who's devoted for Cersei. The mystery that is never really mentioned in the books is how Littlefinger gets the money for the Crown since we know the insane debt... Would Tyrion be able to find someone who can deal with the debt collectors AND get more money while also not being Cersei's puppet? You can't forget that these are times of war and you cant win a war when youre completely out of money. I think Tyrion even thinks to himself something like "I will get rid of Littlefinger once the war is over". So he's not getting rid of people just because they're corrupt but because he needs to fill their place with someone better which is much smarter than to just start killing everyone without a second thought about what's gonna happen afterwards. But still if Tyrion knew how much of a threat Littlefinger actually is... I think it's not a plothole but rather a huge underestimation

[@the_greengrace1995]

It should have been that Tyrion sent someone to kill Little finger and he bribes them with a bag of gold just like Tyrion did with Mord. They both use their mind and their money to get out of things.

[@tobiasgrunbaum7575]

It’d actually be really hard to kill/ fire littlefinger with him basically controlling the money supply of the crown (even worse, nobody knows where he gets it from). Basically by removing him from the council you’d reduce your ability to get your hands on money for the war effort + make enemies with the guy who is implied to have such great contacts within banks etc that he could be a massive pain to deal with if he lived. Killing him would first of all be hard to justify (could lose Tyrion who’s coming in to court as a new Hand quite a bit of esteem and have people be more weary of him than they already are. So breaking that down what would be in it for Tyrion? Wars already ongoing so you can’t go back on that (+money more important than ever), leaving revenge as the only real thing to gain. Tyrions thoughts sum it up perfectly: Littlefinger is well liked and seems harmless, but laying hands on him could be very costly - too costly for Tyrion as a newcomer to court and his new role as hand, especially during wartime.

[@GigsNotPigs]

Possible defence is Tyrion is unsure of who exactly Little finger is working with and controlling at King's Landing, thus he had to act with restraint and delay retribution aganist Peter.

[@vorborinov4054]

This is GRRM's "I'm a gardener" not an architect wisdom playing out - his lack of adequate planning produces not only this plot hole, but GoT in particular has a bucket load. Take Ned allowing his daughters to take their dire wolves to Kings Landing & accompany them with the royal company on the journey, this after Ned warned Rob, Bran & Jon against having dire wolves & warning how lethal & unpredictable they can be. The dire wolf incident with Joffrey is what starts the real tensions & hostility between the Starks & Lannisters, culminating later with Tyrion's arrest by Catelyn. In the real world no one would be that stupid, Catelyn is portrayed as an intelligent enough character to know that arresting Tyrion would begin instant war for Ned in Kings Landing & place her daughters in grave danger. Ned knew better than to allow dire wolves to accompany them to Kings Landing - these are not small errors & misjudgements, they are huge errors. They make the story totally unbelievable - & Littlefinger, in reality Stannis would have killed him years before.

[@bittersteel3284]

The biggest plothole is how the fuck did the Ironborn take Moat Cailin, despite the fact that Robb left a garisson there?

[@scottmclean5997]

Because they were attacked from the North. Moat Câlin allows you to hold the Neck, but it only guards the south. It wouldn’t have been possible for the garrison to be taken without Theon’s treachery

[@manuelam3681]

Moat cailin is a strategic point to protect The North from attacks coming from the South, as it is situated at the end of the only rideble path in the Neck. But the stronghold îs totally unprotected from the North. I am guessing that the ironborn came in from the north and used a similar technique as that used by Theon to conquer Winterfell.

[@hopedixon2133]

Didn't you know? They hired the Golden Company

[@hopedixon2133]

But really...that's a good question. I think the crannogmen secretly dislike answering to Starks...really any Northern house. There is definitely probably some Children lurking about in their bogs, and I assume they are pitting the Northern forces against the Ironborn forces, helping one side destroy the other until they are gone...that whole Kimdissi philosophy that Preston describes from George's other writings. Your an enemy has an enemy, and you can use them to destroy each other...lots of "weak" characters and groups employ this strategy in this world I have found. That being said, Howland Reed is one sketchy dude, just saying. I don't trust him or anything about his time with Ned

[@bittersteel3284]

@@scottmclean5997 I would agree with you but there is a big fat roach in your rushes. The 45 disease ridden, starving, exhausted ironborn in A Dance with Dragons were holding off Bolton's army from both NORTH and SOUTH to the point that Theon/Reek had to be sent in to negotiate, since they were repelling the attacks of thousands of men. Robb's garisson was supposed to be something like a couple hundred longbowmen.

[@findbinnu]

A giant flaw I recently discovered, and have not heard anyone else talking about: if guest right is so sacred and abhorrent to the Gods, then Jaime throwing Bran off the tower, contravening every tenet of guest right, should also result in a non-redemptive arc for Jaime, rather than the honourable valonqar he is destined to become.

[@user-yv4bg4ud6x]

he maimed bran and got maimed himself.

[@pg1448]

I don't see how that's a flaw. There is no written law that states someone who breaks guest right cannot have a redemption arc. The difference is also that Jaime acted impulsively, while Walder Frey f.e. broke guest right maliciously and intentionally. Jaime starts of as an arrogant, cynical and impulsive man who convinced himself he is the immoral, honorless vow-breaker everyone assumes him to be. Only the ordeal he goes through during his journey through the riverlands, losing his sword hand and meeting Brienne, who serves as a role model of what it means to be a true knight, reminds him of the knightly ideals wich he once aspired to in his youth. That's what gets him to reflect on his decisions and attitudes and subsequently change his whole personality. I think it's one of the best and most believable redemption arcs ever written and makes him one of the best characters in the whole series.

[@plotinusreadinggroup]

The answer is Tyrion wasn’t sure he could kill LF with LF’s men about and war just on the horizon. He plans to make revenge, but delays it, perhaps because he understands there are greater matters beyond his own, which says something about Tyrion himself.

[@shannond7437]

I remember the point Tyrion said that and I assumed he was still using Littlefinger and gathering all of the evidence. Still doesn’t make sense, but I don’t think it’s the largest plot hole. George makes a point to tell you that Slynt has taken half of the gold cloak’s pay as well. But he is literally the one controlling the cloaks, when Tyrion put his guy over them he controlled them versus LF. Also there is a point made that LF bought the brothels as a front for how he made all of his money. But regardless, LF did serve a purpose and by getting the Tyrell’s it did save King’s Landing. And the reason Tyrion questions Cat is because LF believes his own lie.

[@bigbangtheorymanic]

The biggest issue with all this is that it's pretty heavily implied in Tyrion's thoughts in CoK that he does want to kill him, he's just not sure how exactly he conjures up money and reflects that little changes between now and the end of the war so he can just deal with him then.

[@johnlanouette8611]

Shade of the Lamp!!! this is a shade of the Lamp situation!!!

[@Lacabradiscoteca]

Regarding the point about Janos Slynt, I think it had more to do with the fact Tyrion needed someone he felt he could rely on in charge of the Gold Cloaks and Slynt was easier to dispose of than his other enemies at the moment

[@notdeadjustyet8136]

Tyrion in Clash behaves very similarly to Cersei in Feast, and I think it's intentional on George's part. They're so focused on each other that they miss what other people are doing or just let it slide.

[@jamestaylor8037]

Its catlyns fault..ned gave her three commands...keep theon close..fortify moat cailin.and call bannerman...and catlyn went and arrested tyrion and started a war

[@wisdommanari6701]

She did 2/3 but King Rob sent Theon home

[@brunoactis1104]

There's actually something y'all forgot. Tyrion wanted the City Watch on his side for his own protection. He constantly talked about this in his first chapters in ACOK. He felt more safe once a man of his was in charge and he also had Bronn and the Vale clans as his protection. This is why he got rid of Janos as soon as he could. I'm literally half way through ACOK, so 8 have it all fresh in my mind.

[@abiolaadedeji1868]

13:13 its extra ridiculous when you consider that cersei told Jaime that she and tyrion DID speak about the dagger