In Defense of Shipping, or, Are Kirk and Spock Gay or What?

[@nickjeffery536]

I don't know why you went with the weird-sounding "Spirk", when you could have gone with Kock...

[@SkylerLinux]

I'm guessing because of censorship of KZbin

[@poppyshock]

I thought the exact same thing when he said "Spirk."

[@chazblank2717]

Sulu and Chekhov could’ve been Sukhov

[@GeekFilter]

Because the 'weird-sounding' Spirk has been what Kirk/Spock slash fiction has been called since the late 1960s. He didn't invent the word :-)

[@donominame8859]

Well played... in a Shakespearian sort of way....

[@shannonigans740]

One slight note: Spirk didn't grow JUST from the LGBT+ community looking for non-hetero. A lot of it was pioneered by hetero women who wanted to add some romance into the series but felt limited by the lack of well-rounded female characters (especially among kirks "conquests"). Instead of making OC's (100% mine do not steal) they started extrapolating one of the only deep emotional relationships on-screen. It's basically the precursor to YAOI. These are the women that launched the letter-writing campaign to get it picked up again. and get the movies made They're the ones that published zines and organized fan conventions. Without shippers - trek wouldn't exist at all. Hell, I also love pointing out to sexist asshats that it only exists because of women PERIOD - Lucielle Ball and Whoopie Goldberg were instrumental in keeping ToS and TNG on air.

[@amymjennings]

Actually you are speaking the truth and I do know so because I was one of them those young ladies in the 1970s. ❤🎉

[@paz1514]

No, it exists cause a man came up with it. Nice try

[@clown_ratt]

@@paz1514 good job staying in character buddy

[@FukugawaUtake]

What about 'Shore Leave' when Kirk thinks its Spock giving him a back massage? He seemed disappointed when he found out it was a Yeoman.

[@danielepps8729]

he was scare of the me-too movement.

[@litchtheshinigami8936]

😂😂

[@bakasta5992]

@@danielepps8729 bad joke

[@Theoddert]

Ah yes, how could we forget Dig It In There Mister Spock

[@coreylevine8095]

Yeoman finally got Kirk in the bed

[@robinpayne125]

How did you resist reminding us that Data is "fully functional" and "programmed in multiple techniques"?

[@jamesrowh4290]

Literally came here to say this.

[@tobiasfunke6284]

I also like how Data was attempting to spur sexual desire by watching porn in Descent

[@akodaah13-e32]

​@@tobiasfunke6284WHAT?? WHEN???

[@prettyhuman]

Talking about Anthony Mackie's awkward response (20:07) reminded me of just how beautifully Mark Hamill addressed the question wether Star Wars' Luke is gay. Something like: "It's meant to be interpreted by you. If you think he's gay, OF COURSE he's gay!" Hell yes.

[@ethelryan257]

Who could resist Harrison Ford? I mean, even if we aren't zwicked out by the twincest with Princess Cinnamon Buns, the chemistry is right there on the screen.

[@summbuddie9120]

@@ethelryan257 a space cowboy and his twink

[@alivecoy]

@@summbuddie9120 'Broke-Back Falcon'

[@seanrichard4608]

@@alivecoy Top (pun only slightly intended) comment right here.

[@rosswieloch1115]

When DS9 was originally on the air I didn't notice any undertones between Bashir and Garak. Admittedly I was a lot younger and didn't notice anything like that on any show. Now that I'm older and have come out myself I'll watch a Bashir/Garak episode and I'm practically yelling at the screen "Bashir stop chasing after Dax. It's creepy and she isn't into you. Go after Garak he obviously wants you."

[@lorensims4846]

Oh, it screamed at me from the initial introduction! I've always simply loved the interaction between those two.

[@EmeralBookwise]

I never noticed it in my youth either, but I recently was rewatching DS9 for the first time in years and was positively gobsmacked by how blatantly unsubtle it was and how obliviously naïve the younger me must have been to have missed it. It's not just in the dialogue, but in the action, specifically just how handsy Garak tends to be with Bashir.

[@tejasgreen1717]

ridiculous

[@litchtheshinigami8936]

Meanwhile my asexual ass just thought they were bro’s 😂

[@skinni_the_P00hBear]

I only watched it a few months ago (wasn't born in the 90s lol), but I didn't really see it with Garak and Julian. Jadzia, though....in fact, the Trill race as a whole. It seemed like a way to incorporate it into the show without outright putting it in the show. Am I making sense?

[@kw7378a1]

Thank you for such a sweet take on shipping culture. A lot of people who comment get fixated on the more extreme aspects of it (transgressive ships or toxic shipping wars) but it's nice to see a reviewer recognize that shipping can be a sweet way to enjoy characters in LGBTQ relationships. As a lesbian, I like to imagine parallel worlds where my favorite characters share my orientation. Not canon and I don't need the creators to bend to my wishes, but it makes the shows and stories more enjoyable for me.

[@sarahscott5305]

Steve manages to take a sweet, positive interpretation of most things. It's one of the things I love most about his content. ☺️

[@vesuvanprincess]

Totally agree.

[@StevenSmyth]

I’ve been a Trekkie since the beginning. We used to call Spirk “slash fiction” for Kirk/Spock. How soon we forget.

[@poppyshock]

Kirk/Spock was the OG slash fiction.

[@sarahlyon157]

The Slash Fiction Fanclub is a common trope in anime, with girls obsessed with boy/boy being a big enough thing that an entire series was written about one who refuses to get a real boyfriend because she's happier with her ships. :D

[@ChrisMaxfieldActs]

Who remembers Laura Godwin, from the AOL ST:TOS boards?

[@conniepayne4425]

@@ChrisMaxfieldActs Laura Godwin? Who’s that?

[@Starshadow]

Laura and I exchanged email when I was writing Spirk; she had a website which had all kinds of her own proofs of the relationship. I myself saw them as bondmates in the Vulcan manner. I even wound up correcting a small error she made in Amok Time. I often wonder what happened to her.

[@JalapenoOverdrive]

Wouldn't this specifically be Starshipping? :P Certainly that would have been an Enterprising title.

[@eldorados_lost_searcher]

This is going to be one warped thread.

[@GrapeCheckerBoard]

Don’t let it phase you.

[@queenannsrevenge100]

“Phasers set to STUNNING!!”

[@shawnhardee1929]

Wait… so Kirk faked his “little death”. I thought Spock had no ego to bruise.

[@literatiglee]

lmao

[@gydemusic]

Brilliant

[@sandordugalin8951]

Tu es hilarant!

[@danielcox3983]

For the kill to feel real and actually stop the Pon Farr, Kirk had to make Spock work for it.

[@jaysilver9193]

Actually, he didn't. It was all McCoy. T'Pau allowed McCoy to give Kirk an injection of Tri-ox compound to help him breathe the thin Vulcan air. McCoy had appealed to her sense of fairness, saying something like, "If the heat doesn't kill him, the thin air will." Then, instead of Tri-ox, McCoy gave Kirk something to knock him out. When Kirk appeared dead, Spock stopped trying to kill him.

[@spacegibbon]

I'm not sure Geordie was ever interested in women for real. The most significant "romantic" attachment he's shown to have in the show is with Leah Brahms - a celebrity (as far as Geordie is concerned) who he idolizes and treats as if he knows personally. She's like his Lady Gaga/Liza Minelli/Bea Arthur.

[@515aleon]

Also maybe wouldn't be so clueless with men.

[@thomasnieswandt8805]

Levar Burton said it in an interview, you can find it here on YT. Geordie was written to be gay! But at some point, the writers were like "Maybe its to much, gay, black and blind...well we cant change black and blind anymore so lets drop the gay part"

[@nathanieldaiken1064]

The Great Bird of the Galaxy has stated that he created LaForge's character as a closeted gay man, who does not "know who he is". Sad for the character.

[@jamsistired]

@@kabobawsome that makes so much sense for his character, and maybe what he had with data was more queerplatonic than just friendship.

[@orvilpym]

Okay... "you can't put the lube back in the tube" just killed me! 😂 Awesome episode! Thanks a lot, Steve!

[@queenannsrevenge100]

I particularly loved “DS 9 is the key party attended by coked-up swingers who hate each other.” 😁

[@thedalaipython]

I’m a little surprised that you didn’t mention the entire plot of Star Trek III: The Search for Spock as being supporting evidence of Kirk/Spock shipping. Granted, Kirk needed to help McCoy regain his sanity too, but the lengths to which Kirk was willing to go to recover Spock’s corpse are well beyond friendship. Also, the part at the end when Sarek asks Kirk about the cost of recovering Spock being his career and the life of his son, Kirk’s reply was, “If I hadn’t tried, the cost would have been my soul.” The delivery of that line shows that his bond with Spock is even stronger than the bond of father and son. That’s true love right there…

[@vanyadolly]

Also the "this simple feeling" thing in the first movie. I mean sure, you can mean friendly affection, but they're displaying an awful lot of affection there.

[@acerumble]

I'm giving Mackie the benefit of the doubt that, as an actor, he believes that people are "misinterpreting" his intended performance of a man in a non-sexual but still intimate friendship with another man. What he seems to be failing to see is that it doesn't matter what the original intent was, it's OK for people to see something other than what the creators imagined with their fictional characters. In our sister sci-fi franchise, Mark Hamill has famously said that he didn't intentionally play Luke Skywalker as a gay or queer character, but if that's how some fans envision him, then of course he is. Steve's simple observation that fictional characters are not actual people, they can be whatever someone wants or needs for them to be, is a lesson that would singlehandedly detoxify the fandom if everyone were capable of taking it to heart.

[@mrgreatbigmoose]

I think Mackie's quote is saying that some shippers are shipping just to be bandwagon jumpers. So there's an air of being not genuine. And bandwagon jumping is the overreaction he's referring to. Or I'm reading too much into this. That being said, Steve's remark to detoxify really does need to be taken to heart.

[@euansmith3699]

I certainly feel that, once an artist publishes their work, it becomes the property of the audience.

[@ssatva]

Mackie's quote strikes me, hard, as a response to accusations of queer baiting... which he might be missing some of the point of (I haven't looked into why that's come up and am myself a clueless dweeb on such), but I can see how that might frustrate him as a reaction to what he sees as an important representation of male friendship. I am going to hunt down the context, because if queer baiting was specifically brought up, it's a mistake to not include that context, because that is *not* a neutral question about shipping at that point.

[@thatboringone7851]

@@bryanv1681 That's a risk no matter what you create or why. The interpretation of the audience isn't any less valid than the author's intent. One does not need to overwrite the other, even special circumstances like "death of the author" don't erase the original creative vision (rather people just agree to move forward with another so that a beloved work does not end due to or become marred by the opinions or actions of someone who created the work).

[@louisvictor3473]

@@bryanv1681 "Because otherwise what's the point of trying to create art with any intent if the consumers can just overwrite what you're saying?" Sorry, you do not understand art. Granted, many artists don't either. The "consumers" (Jesus Christ) making their on reading has been part of art since the dawn of humanity, complaining about that is just... Seriously, you don't need to be an art graduate, this should be primary school art class level.

[@kujasan]

shipping makes perfect sense. except on the ds9, where stationing would be better. ...i'll show myself out

[@beckfink6261]

"DS9 is like a key party attended exclusively by coked-up swingers who hate each other" is the most accurate description of that shipping community I have ever heard. Magnificent! also, I've got a degree in lit analysis and I love bringing that into my fandoms. Intention only goes so far when faced with interpritation, and academic papers have been written on contextualizing less than what is given in some Star Trek ships. All I'm saying is if I can convince an academic journal to publish a paper on multiple layered meanings and interpretations of the word "strange" in line 8 of some poem about a woman Zeus abused, then you can ship whoever you god damn want. Any textual evidence is evidence enough, anything can be considered a valid interpriation! SPRIK FOR LIFE!

[@veespa_]

I’m sorry if this sounds ignorant, but, what sort of benefits have you gained by having said degree in literary analysis? I am 30, finally starting college soon (I’ve been a paralegal for 10 or so years instead) and am trying to figure out what I want to study. I write every day, from journaling to prose to poetry to thought pieces/essays. I have always wondered if I could make a career out of one of my passions, of which I would certainly consider writing in that regard. Any info you can provide would be very much appreciated!

[@beckfink6261]

@@veespa_ Honestly, it helps teach you how to break down the layers in text form what's on the page to the real world influence that helped create it like biases, beliefs, and real life cultures, as well as teach you how to defended and support interpretations (some times contradictory) of a work/ passage/ quote, etc. I do Lectures on Fandom and Fanfiction as part of my Job as a youth librarian and I know a lot of people that make writing about or lecturing on niche topics (example: one of my coworkers does a crypts of new England lecture she gets hired to give) there jobs. Anyone can become an expert in anything, my undergrad adviser was a foremost expert on Jane Austen and it was her whole career. You don't need the credentials but it really helps to take classes that expand and deconstruct how you consume and engage with media if you want to understand poetry, lit, or even your own righting on a more surface level. P.s sorry this comment is so late, hope schools going well and your still writing!!!!

[@cmbeadle2228]

I never non-ironically shipped until i saw that episode from Voyager where Tom Paris and Harry Kim are in jail together. It's literally the most homoerotic thing I've seen in the entire franchise.

[@scaper8]

"The Chute" is the one I assume you're talking about? Yeah, I can see it. I absolutely love the final scene. "Tom, listen to me. I… I almost killed you." "What are you saying? You're the one that kept me alive." "I was ready to hit you with the pipe. Don't you remember?" "You want to know what I remember? Someone saying 'This man is my friend. Nobody touches him.' I'll remember that for a long time."

[@cmbeadle2228]

@@scaper8 yeah, and then there's also the bit when they're first in prison where Paris and another inmate have some kind of dispute which invariably seems like they're fighting over Kim. That plus the role reversal where Tom is quickly turned into the helpless one due to injury makes it seem like fanfic. (I have to assums the writers themselves saw it, because it has a blatant "oh damn they seem kind of gay, better have an obligatory delaney sisters reference) while they are canoodling).

[@pax2009]

Came here to say this! And much like Garashir, the actors ship Kimris too.

[@123_Aqua_Blue]

Glad I’m not the only one that realised this ship could possibly be a ship before and after this episode

[@jessicare5331]

@@pax2009 I was expecting mention of Kimris

[@jimballard1186]

In the new season of Picard, Jean-Luc needs the help of Starfleet's brightest mind to understand Q's machinations, so he enlists the genetically enhanced Dr. Bashir in a cameo. As they introduce themselves, Jean-Luc asks Julian how his husband is. "As devious and lovable as ever," Bashir replies fondly. "Look who's pretending I can't hear that! And you call me devious," Garak chides. Picard gives his warmest, I-kissed-Ian-McKellan smile before they get back to work. Nothing, including the empirical reality of the aired episodes, can convince me this didn't happen. The only explanation is they filmed that scene but it was cut for time.

[@daniel_sc1024]

It's nice to know Bashir finally got over his unrequited love for O'Brien.

[@klisterklister2367]

how dare you write this, giving me feels this late in evening

[@gozerthegozarian9500]

I utterly adore "Our Man Bashir"! Given that Garak's character owes no small amount to the cynical, gritty spies of John Le Carre's novels like "Tinker, *Tailor* (helloooo?), Soldier, Spy", it was great fun and very clever to have him walk into one of the adolescent omnipotence fantasies that are James Bond stories (and that so well reflect Bshir's juvenile cockiness)... # Garashir4eva

[@kaitlyn__L]

Hell yes! Very well put :)

[@rifter0x0000]

Garek and Bashir have some of the best exchanges in Trek. Like when Garek tells Bashir everything he said was true "especially the lies." I know Steve has gone into this in a previous video but he was absolutely right. And the two men who had the most to lose from their secrets leaking, who had constantly to play spy games and deal in innuendo and subterfuge, were also the two who spoke the most truths no one else had the courage to admit. Imagine how happy they both would be if in the end they'd got together. They were cursed in their heterosexual love life, but they understood each other in a way no one else ever could. Don't they deserve to be happy? :)

[@arklestudios]

I'm reminded of something SF Debris said about Voyager re: how the last-minute pairing of Seven and Chakotay happened. Paraphrasing from memory here, but; "The three big Voyager ships at the time were Janeway/Seven, Janeway/Chakotay, and Seven of Nine/The EMH. I'm pretty sure the writers got together one day and went 'Okay, what can we do to piss off all three groups at once?'"

[@jewishautisticnerd3874]

According to what I have read Robert Beltran and Jeri Ryan goaded Branan Braga

[@FixtaFernback]

Upon rewatching Voyager, I forgot how heavily its implied that Janeway and Chakotay might have a thing for one another. Seven/The Doctor was obvious all along. Seven/Chakotay is just dumb.

[@deraltetrekkie6088]

Yeah, but Chuck forgot the other big Voyager-Couple, that later even turned canon: B/P - even if that sounds like an oil-brand. And of course there is the not-that-big-but-not-that-small-subset of pairing: K/7, K/B (which also doubles for Kira /Bashir) and K/P.

[@Bubblesthewitch]

Wait is no one else shipping Tilly and Michael? Like they are every lesbian couple I know, and I personally find it hilarious that the show keeps trying to make Michael straight. (Even though every character in Star Trek is bi until proven otherwise, come at me)

[@berthulf]

Accurate (hilariously accurate)

[@Black-Swan-007]

Right? I was surprised when it wasn't mentioned. I don't ship Michael and Georgiou. Maybe Micheal had feelings for HER captain, but definitely not the mirror world one. She can't stand her. Micheal and Tilly are perfect, especially after Micheal's disastrous "relationship" with Ash. Gag me with a spoon.

[@SHDUStudios]

I fully support this.

[@kruesae22]

All thumbs up for Burnly or Tiham.

[@Vilamus]

If Tilly remains as XO under Burnham then they better get a lot of screen time. Even more adorable given that Michael started off not exactly liking being bunked with Tilly.

[@travisgames6608]

Bruh, when you said LET THE TRAINING WHEELS COME OFF FIRST BEFORE YOU HAVE HIM DOING STUNTS. I can't breathe right now😂😂.

[@ideasinthegord3915]

The animated way Steve talks about this topic, all the jokes and pointing things out, definitely rings as a sign he's a shipper. One of the best videos.

[@berthulf]

@@ideasinthegord3915 If Steve says he's not a shipper then I'm inclined to accept his statement at face value; you don't have to be a shipper to appreciate and enjoy ships. We all know from this channel that Steve's not a stranger to fanfiction, and ships are an integral part of the fanfic universe. I wouldn't call myself a shipper, and don't actively ship anyone when I'm watching a show, but I'd be lying through my teeth if I said the ship stories bookmarked on my Ao3 are not also some of my favourite fanfics. The two are neither mutually inclusive nor mutually exclusive.

[@Theoddert]

There's also the fact that canonically, Cardasian necks are erroneous zones, like Ferengi ears. Meaning that when Garak stood up to leave and gave the "So glad to have made such an interesting new friend today", grabbing Juline's shoulders, he was doing the Cardasian equivalent of grabbing his ass

[@theeternalgus9119]

I actually saw that episode for the first time yesterday (started DS9)!

[@MultiClassGeek]

The simple truth is that without shipping, and especially slash, fandom as we know it would not exist. ‘Zine culture was the beating heart of fandom for so long, and fic zines were front and centre; So when the Internet arrived, people used it to do what they always did (“Bitch about movies and share pornography”, thank you Holden McNeil) in a faster, cheaper and more efficient way. And I guarantee you that a good portion of the OG fans who were writing letters alongside Bjo Trimble were shippers of one flavour or another. So, yes, in more ways than one, without the Ships, Trek ain’t going nowhere, Boldly or otherwise.

[@klisterklister2367]

second this ^ we wouldn't have a third season of TOS if the shippers hadn't gone up in arms about the cancellation of season 3 due to poor ratings. so they got a third season!!! i mean imagine life without the episode spock's brain

[@StevenSmyth]

Amen. I’m not a shipper but you could always pick up a copy of Grup at a con. I had some in my ‘zine collection before I lost it all in a move.

[@gozerthegozarian9500]

100% this

[@JBX07]

Before watching the video I wanted to comment saying that Enterprise is probably the most homoerotic series of Star Trek. There's a very Top Gun episode where Captain Archer & Trip play sweaty shirtless team sports while bonding with another group of sweaty macho shirtless aliens who are accused of being terrorists.

[@kaitlyn__L]

Then they have to barely-survive in the desert :)

[@ColeMayes]

"The only thing to keep Spock from jumping Kirk's bones right there is... Bones is right there." ROTFLMAO - excellent, Steve. :-D As a Gay man myself, I could never get into anyone in Star Trek, but this might be due to the fact I started watching it from episode one in 1966 when I was 5 years old. LOL I've been thinking about you this week because I started rewatching your favorite Trek series...Voyager. :-D I'm now at the end of the 3rd season, and a 'spatial anomaly" appears knocking the warp drive offline so Voyager couldn't pull away. (surprise!) Then Tom Paris goes out in a shuttle when another anomaly appears, but this time all the transporters go offline, but the engines are working perfectly. (facepalm!) Janeway screams, "get any transporter lock on Tom!" to which Belanna screams, "I can't connect to any of them!" (another massive FACEPALM!!) It was at this moment I realized I've seen several episodes like this recently during my rewatch binge, and indeed, there are MANY in Voyager, all which become painfully apparent when watching so many episodes back-to-back. (sigh!) You've pointed out this series "flaw" many times, and I had a good belly chuckle think about you yesterday. Just had to tell you so. :-D

[@sarahscott5305]

Regarding Garak's sexuality; I got a very asexual vibe from his performance, and I think that romantic ambiguity really served to enhance Garak's mystery. That said, I'm not opposed to the idea of Garashir (or, as it should be, Bashrak) it's just not the interpretation that works for me! I didn't get the idea that Garak was romantically interested in Ziyal, either. I'm sure he cared for her, but he seemed more interested in *her* interest in him. Even when he stood by her dead body, and Kira said "she loved you" he replied with "I could never figure out why" rather than "and I loved her."

[@TheHopperUK]

I agree that Garak never seemed romantically interested in Ziyal but I never got asexual from him. He seems very much open to whatever and he definitely finds Julian attractive. That said - it could all be acting and I suspect, to an extent, he might not know himself what he really wants any more, after a life spent calculating and lying. I love that you got that from him though! I adore how much is in Trek for all of us. My asexual icon is Weyoun :D

[@sarahscott5305]

@@TheHopperUK It's a testament to how well conceived the character was, and how brilliantly he was portrayed, that so much of his personality is open to interpretation; how much is genuine and how much is obfuscation. It's things like this that make DS9 my all time favourite TV show.

[@TheHopperUK]

@@sarahscott5305 Absolutely agreed!

[@chazblank2717]

Garak had a very stern overbearing father who made him into a habitual liar through physical and emotional abuse/torture... I can see how a closeted individual might relate to this.

[@lionelmason339]

Though I too am an oblivious Cishet man who is often a dumbass, I've always felt that there was an obvious attraction between Archer and Trip.

[@KayleighBourquin]

Just boys doing boy things... ;)

[@jessicare5331]

Just boys being dudes. (And Trarcher?)

[@jayiinmistaya]

As someone who got his start reading Star Trek fanzines and novels - thank you for supporting fanfiction and fanfic authors.

[@JanetStarChild]

So, when can we expect Steve and Jason to do a live reading of their own fanfic "'shipping" of their characters from The Ensign's Log?

[@elsarose2420]

Thank you so much for this episode, Steve! As a queer and young Trek fan, I do find myself drawn to same sex ships because like you said - representation matters. Garashir in particular is something I would have loved to see canon, but we do get a small acknowledgment in - I’m not entirely sure if it’s A Stitch in time or enigma tales with somebody asking if Parmak is Garak‘s lover. Small, but it made me really happy :D

[@conniepayne4425]

“Let him get the training wheels off before you get him out there trying stunts.” This statement encapsulates why I subscribe to your channel. Can’t always align with your pov but that devilish humor…

[@radiationshepherd]

I really appreciate this video I really just find it nice to see a straight guy not weirded out by these ships and able to understand why people like them and find them sweet

[@sunspot42]

K/S fanfic was among the first Trek fanfic and probably inspired some of the first Trek fanzines and powered some of the most intense Trek fandom back in the ‘70s. Hence the term “slash”. The odd thing about it is, it was virtually all written by women, not by gay men, and women were also the target audience. There was more than a little controversy about this among gay Trek fans back in the day - kind of a feeling that someone else was presuming to tell their stories. This made the arrival of Garak on DS9 extra exciting, since here was clearly a character being played as gay and flirting with another man. Subtext became text, and the covert more overt. It’s unfortunate the producers didn’t have the balls to let it play out, even just covertly and not officially acknowledged.

[@cobyhoff]

I'm an oblivious cis-dude, but my brother came out 20 years ago, so I've been an ally for a long time. I was still today-years-old before I ever even considered that Garak was gay. I think they could have let it play out. We cis-folk would not have picked up.

[@Kamodomon]

That last line from the fan work sounds SO IN CHARACTER for those two. Damn.

[@berthulf]

And it's literally them, so Garashir is no longer Fanon. They are Canon and that is a hill I will gladly fight on (sets Phaser to wide-beam).

[@RunDGC]

"Let him take off the training wheels!" I'm dead

[@riff5fki]

However I do disagree with criticizing Mackie's comments, just because I do believe he was basically put in a no-win scenario with that question, either you piss off your bosses at Disney and risk your career by acknowledging fan ships (something disney kind of hates to do), or you try and tread a line of "no homo" and I think he took the latter in that case. I think he just phrased it really, really badly.

[@scaper8]

Kind of agree. I only know of the interview from this very video, and I didn't watch _Falcon and the Winter Soldier_ (I probably will at some point, but I just haven't gotten around to it), but it sounds an awful lot like someone trying to weasel out if a question and bungling it terribly.

[@RenaDeles]

I kind of end up in the same position because part of why people react to so much, especially to that show, is the writers themselves and the show actually did a lot. Like we had one of the lead writers responding to somebody pointing out wait a second when Bucky is talking about online dating he makes a reference that can only be about looking up dudes and said writer responded wait and see. (And then no follow up in the show, so thanks on telling people to wait for nothing.) If you get told to wait and see for decades and decades, eventually you're going to go How about instead you either just do stuff or stop trying to have your cake and eat it too. And while on one hand I have a lot of sympathy especially for an actor getting put in a no-win situation like this I also feel for fans who are tired of being gaslighted by others, so they're maybe not going to be the kindest to this response. Also I really feel like the argument about can't guys just be friends is just weaponized too much exclusively against hey stop trying to make *anything* gay because heaven forbid everything not be straight, instead of much actual concern about hey let's normalize male friendships that are different. Because you really don't see the same argument pop up about hey why can't a man and a woman infection just be friends without it being a romantic thing. And when that keeps being the case it feels like it's actually about gayness instead of about friendship.

[@riff5fki]

@@scaper8 oh it definitely is, and then it got posted as like the selective quote to generate controversy i think he just got caught off guard by the question

[@MistyKathrine]

He should have just said something short like: People have always interpreted works of fiction in different ways. Mostly punts the question without bringing controversy. Instead he put out a word salad that makes him look like a homophobe...

[@ravenfrancis1476]

What are you talking about? Evans and Stan have both acknowledged Stucky at one point and Daisy Ridley, Oscar Isaac, and John Boyega openly acknowledge that FinnPoe should've been canon, and have said so multiple times.

[@ariellavender4553]

So I wanted to give some critique as a bisexual woman who has had lesbian relationships. First of all, thank you for bringing this conversation to your audience. From some of the commentary I've seen, it seems like you were able to introduce some wonderful concepts to your viewers, and I really appreciate that. That being said, I wanted to bring some awareness to how you handled talking about relationships between women in your video, namely with Crusher/Troi and Janeway/SevenofNine. The whole point of your conversation centered about how LGBTQIA+ persons were able to create representation for themselves through fanfic, but you cast the conversation about the lesbian relationships through your eyes as a cis straight man rather than how lesbians who have these ships would view them. At least for me, it is the same as those with gay ships finding representation, its seeing the dynamics of the actual relationship on screen, and translating that into intimacy and closeness. A lot of times there's this experience that we as women who love other women are seen by straight cis men as objects that are sexy together for their pleasure. A really easy example of this is porn. The way that lesbian women interact sexually is nothing like how women in porn are seen, which literally is filmed through the lense of bringing enjoyment to men. A lot of my lesbian friends have had experiences where they were propositioned by men in front of their girlfriends, and when they tell the men they have absolutely no interest, they get offended that a woman would have no interest in a man. So I just have this very deep discomfort with you talking about wlw relationships not for what they are, like Troy and Crusher being there for each other and emotionally holding each other up, even when they're slapped together with some sort of romantic interest for an episode. For me, there was always something much more meaningful in how Crusher and Troy truthfully loved and supported each other when their relationships with men in the series was always so dry and forced to me. Not to mention the relationship between Michael and Tilly in Discovery! I loved their dynamic and how Tilly was able to pull Michael out of her shell when she first arrived. But TL;DR. Thank you for bringing this to your audience, but is very destructive to women in the lgbtqia+ community when you cast their relationships through your experiences as a straight cis male rather than the intention of this video, which was to show how being able to create representation for yourself when there are no good examples of it in the world is so empowering. I hope that you can continue to learn more about the community, and help build us up an an ally!!

[@jamsistired]

That's a very good point, I sort of thought he was playing it as a joke in the video about how typically men act this way but maybe he was being serious about his comments on J7 on Crusher/Troi

[@dheisey1014]

The thing that drives me nuts about this stuff is the “Kirk’s not gay, he’s shown kissing and even getting out of bed with a woman and had David Marcus” argument. Because nobody’s ever been bi or pan before…

[@Vilamus]

And no hetero dude has ever come out as gay later in life, even after gathering children.

[@louisvictor3473]

I mean, even if you assume them completely gay, it is not like gay people never went through life assuming themselves straight like most people around them seem to be, and taking years to realize that they're at best entertained but not satisfied living a straight life and what all those funky feelings and sensations they've had actually mean. Even if we assume a completely non bigoted environment, that can still happen when the overwhelming majority of people (i.e. one personal observable examples of how to do this messy thing we call living) are straight or at least straightish. If you're just going through the motions of living for whatever other reasons and have never fallen for someone very strongly, you can be very sexually active (stimulating the ol' never receptors and voluntary human intimacy are still fun on themselves) and still overlook your sexuality and romantic affinities.

[@theresisty7122]

I feel like Kirk and Riker have got to be pan.

[@Bastion90]

Raffi/Seven ship is clearly Raven. I mean, Seven's ship literally was The Raven.

[@lindamarx1256]

Yup, I tried to make "Raven" a thing, but it didn't catch on!

[@nathanieldaiken1064]

Well done!👏👏

[@xirtall2]

Comparing Data trying Riker as "trying stunts" slew me 😂

[@KestralKuthule]

Yeah but he's not wrong. 🤣

[@shreyanswritingchannel7515]

6:07 "Only thing which keeps him from Jumping Kirk's bones right there is the fact that BONES (McCoy) is right there." Wonderful delivery!

[@tomdemongod]

This is a topic i’m very passionate on ! As someone with autism i hyper-fixate on topics and i find my fixations often latch onto shipping . Also as a queer person i *want* to see gay characters in my media so i think that’s why i move towards queer ships .

[@ninarodet493]

I don't usually comment, but I wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed your video! You're really objective and open-minded and it's always a pleasure to listen to your analyses. And also, I appreciate the subtitles, as English is not my first language and I usually struggle to understand everything without them. Thank you!

[@kostiemuirhead8187]

The way I understand Mackie's take is that people want to assign relationship status to any portrayed closeness instead of allowing for loving platonic relationships. That's an appropriate and rational criticism as we do live in a world where it's difficult to have two leads of different genders without people assuming they should be together. While it should be fine to have gay representaion on film, it should ALSO be ok to show male closeness and love that doesn't stem from them being gay. Platonic love is as important to be represented as acknowleging the multitude of attractions and alignments that exist. He made it really awkwardly worded though. We should be able to have portrayals of all kinds of healthy relationships on screen, both romantic and platonic, of all colours and alignments.

[@sarahscott5305]

"Let him take the training wheels off first before you get him out there trying stunts, Jesus!" The delivery of that line was just *perfect* DS9 has an absolute ship-load of ships. The only canonical one is O'Brashir. It is canon. It *IS* canon. Fight me with swords.

[@tomaspabon2484]

Garak is Bashir's only boo. State the grounds of combat. Bat'leths at dawn.

[@scaper8]

Hey, hey, hey. There's enough of Bashir to go around. Garak and O'Brian can share.

[@ideasinthegord3915]

@@tomaspabon2484 Yeah, it's practically canon that Garak and Bashir are in love. But you cant tell me that O'Brien isnt going to get worried that his best friend is dating the infamous Cardassian spy.

[@sarahscott5305]

@@tomaspabon2484 I will accept a love triangle of unrequited love: Garak loves Bashir, but Bashir loves O'Brien, but O'Brien is both deeeep in the closet and also in love with one of the best ladies on Star Trek. Keiko is a fantastic wife and woman. I will hear no arguments to the contrary. As for weaponry, I shall duel-wield the Mek'leth

[@andrewness]

Bashir is usually too busy harassing Dax and fucking post catatonic patients to mess around with Miles.

[@ShikiKiryu]

In regards to Voyager you forgot one of the most iconic, Tom/Harry! And with DS9, that one scene where Garak tells Bashir to go to his quarters and 'eat his rod' well uh...*ahem*...Shipping is so important for fandom, especially us queer fans. There often isnt always a representation for us to identify with and as you said, its a way of reading the medium and its key for people to see, feel and understand a connection with a piece of media, especially if its something thats lacking in said media. Star Trek itself is kinda also where fanfics got a headstart in mainstream attention, the origin of Mary Sue, as it were, was it not?

[@adamziegler6894]

Although I disagree with Mackie’s assumption of intent, I think there is a sentiment buried in his statement that is worth exploring. Media analysis of close male relationships is quick to jump to homosexual/homoerotic subtext. The idea that two men who share a close emotional connection are de facto gay is common and can perpetuate patriarchal gender norms. I don’t think this was really Mackie’s point, but as a cisgender heterosexual male who has worked very hard to break through that normative pressure I thought it was worth mentioning that I share some frustration with him on this issue. Having a loving and close relationship with another man is not always gay and it is important to encourage straight men to embrace this idea. Not trying to yuck anyone’s yum, just trying to share a different perspective.

[@astaiannymph]

I'm queer & aromantic and I agree there's a strong need to depict, celebrate, & normalize non-romantic close friendships between men (and among genders) as often as we see it between women. On the other hand, one can see society and/or tv/film producers are obsessed with romance, and thus canonical queer relationships are super important by their measure. If there were plentiful depictions of queer relationships (or if tv stopped being interested in romance), I don't think there would be as much reading romance into close non-romantic friendships. Basically both issues are solved by depicting more diverse relationships.

[@adamziegler6894]

@@astaiannymph I agree completely.

[@Jacques_a_dit]

I think most people would't have a problem with him saying he doesn't see the characters as gay I didn't think Sam was anything but straight when i saw the show. It's his wording which everyone found strange. Specially contrasting it with the reaction other actors from the MCU have had to their characters being shipped. Not to look far, how Chris Evans and Sebastian Stan embraced the stucky shippers. For a long time creators couldn't write openly gay characters. That's why queercoding became a thing. So LGBT audiences are used to look for signs that may or may not be there. The lack of sexual diversity in the MCU making it even more common for people to write their own.

[@ravenfrancis1476]

Yes, but we've never had an on-screen gay character in the MCU movie before besides that nameless Joe Russo cameo in Endgame; Valkyrie's *one* scene showing her bisexuality got cut, Ayo's canonically a lesbian in the comics and this isn't mentioned at all in the movies, and Loki coming out as canonically genderfluid and bisexual had to happen literally after he canonically died and got shunted onto Disney+. There are tons of friendships between men in the MCU who aren't canonically romantic. Hank and Scott, Tony and Peter, literally anyone and Bruce, pretty much any friendship in the Guardians of the Galaxy not involving Gamora (and later Mantis). Not to mention Mackie himself as engaged with a fair bit of shipping with his constant assertions that Sam should end up with Black Widow, so him suddenly coming against shippers now that its a gay ship indicates a pretty homophobic double standard. There's a reason we don't ask cishet men for their input on LGBT+ representation these days. People like you and Mackie are that reason.

[@adamziegler6894]

@@ravenfrancis1476 I think you misunderstood my point. I support increased representation of LGBT+ relationships. I don’t think anyone one is wrong or weird or anything for shipping in the way that person wants. I disagree with most of what Mackie said. But I see you just want to label me as part of the problem just because I don’t completely disavow some of the feeling behind it. I’d be happy to discuss and consider differing opinions, but it’s very hard when you start off by labeling me as the enemy from moment one.

[@Gablork]

I'm all for shipping mostly because it takes nothing away from me and my enjoyment of the show. As a straight white dude, I never really had to dig for representation so I'm glad everyone can get some. The closest thing I do to shipping is to revel in non-superficial men's friendship. Star Trek and LotR offer plenty of what would generally be viewed as "manly men" being gentle, soft-spoken and affectionate, not only to their partners but to their friends, without the fear of being label as lesser (or as the cavemen would say, "gay"). I guess it really shows how patriarchy has affected men too when what you try to find out in movies and entertainment is meaningful friendships and genuine feelings between friends.

[@CheeseypiPlays]

That Anthony Mackie interview really made my blood boil... Not the least because straight people literally do the same thing with loving het friendships, y'all can't get mad at us for reading in the same shit y'all do just with different characters. On top of everything you mentioned in this video. Thanks Steve.

[@ryanedwards7487]

I don't think he meant it in the way he said it, saying this because, by all accounts, Mackie is actually IRL the same kind of empathetic, good man he plays. That being said, I can totally understand why you were so angry, because I can be that way with people when they make hamfisted remarks about my mixed-race marraige or child / wife. I read his remarks as saying don't let people queerbait you into buying or supporting things you normally wouldn't. But he should have just said it that way, and not been so defensive. Also, he could have totally said something similar to this: "Bucky and Falcon are flamingoes, like Denny Crane and Alan Shore in 'Boston Legal'". Or maybe, for a newer understanding from the first season of the Will and Grace relaunch, Jack: "When you get older, you'll understand that there's the family you were born into and the family that you choose, and the family I chose... well, it doesn't get any better than that." Because I love that friend of mine more than my brother, and who's to say that's not the same kind of thing that Bucky and Steve / Bucky and Sam have?

[@rebekahrhodes9512]

@@ryanedwards7487 Also, I've heard some really problematic things about the interviewer, his interviews with John boyega and Ray Fisher also had similar gotcha problematic sound bites. I've heard some people say he has a reputation for cornering people on questions they don't want to answer until they give something that he can use his clickbait.

[@Redshirt214]

Reading it charitably, I think the answer to that interview was meant to convey “why can’t two guys just be close friends and not gay?”, “shippers are projecting”, and something about the recent commercialization of gay culture, but the messages just collided and the whole answer was a gibberish pile up. He’d have been better off not saying anything at all, honestly.

[@ravenfrancis1476]

@@Redshirt214 Reading it *charitably"* you reach the conclusion that it's just the homophobic whinging of a straight man angry at gay people for reading representation into his work? I'd hate to hear your negative reading on this.

[@baronofclubs]

As long is it's not the Evergiven blocking worldwide trade...

[@hellogoditsmesara3569]

I can’t believe you didn’t mention that all of ds9 is in a complicated love octogon/polycule

[@riff5fki]

Shipping is both one of the best things for a fandom and one of its worst things--but I do think much of the negative aspects have only developed as an outgrowth of internet culture as it is. But I think it's wonderful example of how readers engage with a text, and how that engagement fuels creativity as well.

[@castironchaos]

Bronydom whinnys in agreement.

[@DrTssha]

Thanks for letting me know that video exists, I am SO gonna have to look up Alexander Siddig's KZbin account and watch it!

[@jamessatter7418]

Never thought of Chekov and Sulu before.

[@kimberlee9608]

🏆 I’ve chosen this video as my personal winner of the “Delightfully Surprising Pride Month Ally Content Choice” award! As a lesbian and sci-fi enthusiast who can’t help but LOVE gay ships, your straight dude non-shipper self giving genuine (albeit sometimes awkward) support for them in this video was … appreciated 😂 On behalf of the possible DOZEN of over 30 lesbian trek nerds subbed to you, Thanks Steve for making this video! 😂

[@vesuvanprincess]

Oh, two dozen at least! ;)

[@dragonvliss2426]

THANK YOU! I never saw Kirk/Spock as a thing, but, as you said, it is certainly a possible fan interpretation. When my same-sex partner and I were neck-deep in Star Wars fan fiction, we wrote a gay relationship between Admiral Piett and an empath, our own character. Lucasfilm sent us a cease-and desist letter and we ignored it. Since fan fiction doesn't really infringe on the canon product or cost the commercial company any money, they couldn't apply any legal pressure, and we published our own fanzine, ignoring Lucasfilm. Some other fan editors also published some of our stories. Ken Colley, who played Piett, sent us a letter saying he didn't mind the pairing at all. We later published a huge -- 300 page -- fan novel about Snake Plissken of the Escape movies and our MartyStu ( male Mary Sue ) same-sex lover for him. It's fun and harmless, and I think a creative way to treat a universe we feel invested in as fans. We're now working on Daryl Dixon from _Walking Dead_

[@doug7897]

"Grok Spock, in the biblical sense" I'm *so* upset at this line.

[@literatiglee]

And here I thought it was little short of briliant~ !

[@SkylerLinux]

Because of how amazing that is

[@glamourweaver]

I’m reminded of a post online that observed that many people who complain about reading things into the text that aren’t intended to be there are the same people who will post or watch 2 hour “theory” videos.

[@gozerthegozarian9500]

I wonder what Old Man Heinlein would make of the concept of "grok(ing) Spock in the biblical sense" 😂🤣😅🤣 You're a poet, Steve!

[@nergregga]

I've been a shipper since the very first time I watched an X-files episode. For me it's just a bit of fun. I don't need my ships to be canon, but I understand why some people do. I think there's a clear issue with LGBTQIA+ representation, but there's more to it than that. The way, as an example, women are portrayed in the original Star Trek series is... less than ideal. They often only, apart from Uhura, Nurse Chapel and a few others, serve a eye candy, and/ or romantic interests for the male characters. It's hard for me to ship hetero couples on TOS without feeling iffy about it, especially shipping Kirk with a woman gives me the heebie jeebies because of how he's often seen leering at them on the series. I wouldn't want to be a woman and date Kirk. Shipping for me is most fun when the charaters have an equeal relationship. (Yes, I know Spock is Jim's subordinate, but Spock could literally break him in half if he wanted to.) This problem with female characters being rather flat and uninteresting, while male character are fleshed and well rounded is a common problem in popular media, and I think that's is partly why there's so much same gender shipping.

[@annaboes8359]

God, do I agree. I was searching for some Walking Dead Michonne/Rick fanfic, and I couldn't find too much character driven stories. And than I realized, yeah, I'd have a hard time writing that, too, since she is an amazing character - but other than some missjudgements, what's really going on with her other than her mother-thing? She has a lot of great moments, but there isn't really any depth to her - compared to others in the same show, that is. I haven't read the comics, and I didn't spend much time on any research, but in the TV show, the women are amazing, strong, fighters, as they have to be, and make mistakes at times - but they don't HAVE mistakes, they just let one strenght get in the way of another, in a way. And that is comparetively modern and with at least some amount of understanding for how humans work. -.- I love that we don't serve eyecandy-must-gasp points any longer (mostly), but now I'm a bit at a loss as to how to connect to the more modern type of can-do-badass types that are around - I'm most certainly not one. Different priorities, emotions, thoughts, all that can conflict, leads to messing up while still winning, making mistakes while doing the right thing, that sort of stuff that makes stories interesting - and female characterizations still lack that way to often. They usually don't even get too much of a story for any of that, no inner perspective, even in lead roles. Like, being female is to not being allowed to mess up or have more than one inner motive at any given time. -.- Kirk did, in the sixties, disobeying rules to safe Spock, loving the Enterprise but loving some of the people around him and some of the most important attributes of himself more, willing to, in the end, sacrifice one thing over another. Women still don't get much of that complexity, even while being the main protagonist. It's annoying. So, I'm off to read another Kirk/Spock story, then.

[@drummerman6488]

I'm surprised people used the ship name "Spirk" when "Kock" is right there

[@aricheintzelma6877]

Kirk himself gave an answer to this question in Gene Rodenberry’s novelization of “Star Trek: the Motion Picture”. On the subject, he said something to the effect that he couldn’t picture himself with anyone who only mated once every seven years.

[@tomchaney6085]

I'm generally not much of a shipper, subtextual sexual tension isn't something I really tend to pick up on (just ask any of my friends who started dating without telling me outright,) but I am convinced that massive torch Riker was carrying for Picard was at least half the reason he turned down all those promotions, Deanna and Tasha had some serious eyes going between them in Encounter At Farpoint, and well Picard/Q and Bashir/O'Brien speak for themselves.

[@idontknowwhattoput3603]

One thing I'd like to point out is that in star trek the Multiverse exists making every ship valid because although in the universe we see these characters didn't get together theirs a universe where seven way is valid a universe where odo and quark hook up. Star trek is truly a place of acceptance and maybe one day we'll see these universes were our favourite ships get together

[@lindseypoore2694]

The single most romantic thing I've ever seen in Star Trek: The Motion Picture. Spock recovering in sickbay, him and Kirk grasping hands (which is established canon as how vulcans kiss), talking about this simple feeling.🥰🏳️‍🌈

[@michaelmitchell4989]

I never even thought of Scotty Baks before ... but it is right there.

[@sageandcandle]

I love Garek & Bashir. I was so happy to be on the zoom during these moments. Star Trek is all about the love of the fans & dedication of the cast & crew. Love Wins

[@Theoddert]

Given I'm very lesbian I naturally gravitate towards the women pairings, but I've always held a soft spot for Data/LaForge partly because of their roles as the engineering / 'get it done' sciencey types but also because of one thing that gets skimmed over alot; They share some quite intimate moments in android terms, like where someone will talk about data in non-human terms and Geordi pulls them up on it, or when data has an issue and Geordi, being the engineer, is the one to diagnose him and hook him up to the computer. There's this scene one time when he removes his head section to reveal all the blinkey lights and you can see Geordi sort of mesmerised but also taken aback because who else gets to see him this way? In a uniquely vulnerable position?

[@beesbeesingtonvi614]

They gotta make Garak and Bashir canon in new trek at some point. It would be a crime if they didn't.

[@sarahscott5305]

Bashir did say he loved Miles, but Miles never said the same because he was too deep in the closet 🙁

[@kaitlyn__L]

@@sarahscott5305 he did say “people either love you or hate you… and now I don’t hate you”, so he couldn’t say it directly but he was only one step removed, it’s not exactly beating around the bush!

[@sarahscott5305]

@@kaitlyn__L You're quite right Kaitlyn, as usual! x

[@scifidanceranglephile6258]

As a reader of slash way back, I applaud this entire post. Thoughtful and insightful. Bravo!

[@me-nah3343]

While it was never meant to be put online by the creator, the Kirk/Spock NIN video is...👌

[@JaredByer]

I like to think, if we treat Kirk and Spock as a couple, it implies that Kirk and Bones were also once a couple. Imagine Kirk and Bones dated when they were young and have become the exes that grew into a friendship. Bones is that ex that Kirk trusts and keeps as a confidant. Bones, might still have feelings for Kirk, but he is a professional, and keeps it to himself. However, when Kirk and Spock become a couple, Bones can't help but feel at least some animosity towards Spock. That animosity comes out as the occasional jab at Spock's physiology. Spock, being logical understands where Bones animosity comes from, but also realizes that Kirk is with Spock now, and there is no logical reason to take it personally.

[@Donnagata1409]

Hey, well Spocked... I mean, spotted!

[@KayleighBourquin]

DS9 had so many ships Dax/Kira Dax/Worf Dax/Quark Dax/Sisko Dax/Kang/Kor/Koloth Dax/Capt Bodey E. Dax/Bashir Just so many ships...

[@scaper8]

Basically what you're saying is, _everyone_ wanted to get in Jazida's pants. And she wanted to get in everybody's too.

[@harrietpotter649]

As a longtime shipper (in fandoms other than Star Trek) this was delightful to watch c:

[@hey_its_fae]

It's not just a search for representation either because we are lucky enough to start to see that representation on screen (yay for Paul/ Hugh). At least for me it is the search for queer relations that feel fully formed and well rounded. Much like how women often cannot find realistic female characters queer relationships in media are often somewhat one-dimensional. Any representation is a start, good represenation we're still writing for ourselves.

[@fuunygurl10]

I think(?) maybe(?) what Anthony Mackie was trying to say (and botching to a heretofore unknown degree) was that there is an effect of toxic masculinity in our culture that makes men afraid to show affection for their male friends or even probably admit to themselves that they LOVE their male friends because they fear being perceived as gay. Obviously there’s nothing wrong with being gay but this fear so insidious it causes men to avoid physical contact with other men to the point it literally affects their health. (I suggest the NYT article from 2017 “The Power of Touch, Especially for Men” by Andrew Reiner and/or the article by Mark Greene on his RemakingManhood blog “Touch Isolation: How Homophobia Has Robbed All Men of Touch”.) I think what Mackie was trying to express is his frustration that people taking these characters that (at least to him) are portraying a healthy, loving male friendship and “changing” it to be a sexual/romantic relationship feeds into that fear. I’d argue it’s a valid observation but the wrong conclusion. The issue isn’t that people are making this fear worse, it’s that our society conditions men to fear being even perceived as gay.

[@kelseylogas1580]

What a lovely homage to the truth that people who find meaning in art become artists themselves. I was very touched by that sweet little scene between Garak and Bashir. I didn't interpret it that way when I watched the show; Garak always seemed to play his sexuality close to the vest as he did so many other things, but given that precise ambiguity I can absolutely see how he could go all sorts of ways.

[@lukemitton619]

Amazing video! And, coming from someone who's bisexual, please don't think that just because you're not LGBT yourself that you're ignorant, doing your research and actually trying is the most important thing by far and it's clear you've done plenty of both! If this video is any indication, the thoughtfulness and general mindset with which you treat these topics is probably just about as good as most gay folks I know. We need more people like you!

[@ideasinthegord3915]

Omg! I'm so stunned and happy that you mentioned two of my ships - Garashir and Qcard. Though, Steve, the way you talked about Garashir, it does sound like you ship it. Another top ship is TuckReed. But that's just me. It's good to see a positive view on shippers, we tend to be mocked a lot in my experience. Cant wait for the Qcard episode!

[@margarethofstetter7137]

One of the best classes I took in college was Aesthetics. Art is a creation of the artist, and s/he then launches it into the world. From there, it is constantly changing, depending on who is observing or hearing or touching it. There is little value in trying to "figure out what the artist is trying to say," beyond maybe a little context; it's important what the work is saying to YOU. This is how artists gift their art to all of us. So if people see shipping as their way of feeling represented, a work of art can accommodate that.

[@thomasjenkins5727]

I definitely picked up on Garak trying to seduce Bashir, but I obliviously assumed it to be the non-sexual kind of seduction. More like winning him over because he's naive and can be turned into Garak's advocate. Now that I've actually typed that out... I realize that the two are not mutually exclusive.

[@adamkauffman9311]

A great video! Watching this three years after its posting and feeling amused because Strange New Worlds *did* explore Spock and Chapel.

[@jahipalmer8782]

I can, in fact, imagine those two absolutely going to town on each other. It makes me happy.

[@Grounded_Gravity]

Julian after meeting Garak acts exactly like a baby queer who has a crush but doesn't yet *realize* why they are suddenly intensely drawn to and fixated on this person. I think this is an experience a lot of us go through in our queer awakenings - it's so cute and relatable! From how I see it, Julian initially seems to have that kind of reaction but eventually I think he comes to terms with it and his flirting style seems to grow more intentional in time.

[@josheklow4555]

On Picard, Zhaban and Laris and Picard are a thruple. We see their life at home and then Michael Chabon just casually mentions Romulan marriages are traditionally polyamorous…can’t be an accident.

[@jepifany635]

I was surprised you missed the episode of Voyager that is the epitome of being "the episode" for one gay ship. "The Chute" is a classic for those who ship Harry Kim and Tom Paris.

[@bricksloth6920]

"wants to grok Spock (in the biblical sense)..." 🤣😂🤣😂🤣

[@sarahscott5305]

I've now added "Biblical Grok" to my vocabulary.

[@euansmith3699]

Shouldn't that be "in a Teachings of Surak sense..."?

[@yanneckschuster6531]

Liked the video a lot. English is not my first language so I had to concentrate not to think of starships when he said ships. “There are a lot of ships on DS9” well duh. 😂

[@chazblank2717]

Sulu and Chekhov isn’t called Sukhov? missed opportunity

[@dmitrikalashnikov4754]

9:43 A bit of fun evidence in support of DaForge is the parallel between Geordi realizing Data would never have deviated from protocol and Keiko realizing Miles would never have drank coffee in the afternoon (ST:DS9 2:13 Armageddon Game). Keiko was mistaken, but both she and Geordi leverage their intimate familiarity with their respective loved ones to prove to others that they ought to keep investigating their supposed deaths. Sure we can say that Geordi and Data are just really good friends, but I think it is interesting that the only other time we see a similar plot unfold occurs with a famously married couple of the franchise.

[@mias5288]

I don't usually comment, but as a Shrancher shipper I just gotta mention how much it made my day to see them mentioned up there.

[@happyninja42]

My one issue with various ships, particularly between 2 male characters, is they often cite examples of compassion and empathy, and caring between the two guys, as CLEAR evidence of gayness. Because "no straight dudes would act like that." Which I find fairly depressing really, assuming that it's impossible for guys to have genuine feelings and care for each other, without everyone pointing at them and screaming "haha! gaaaaaay!" even if the person doing this WANTS them to be gay, because that's their thing. I remember that was a reason the people behind Shawshank Redemption, felt the film was such a strong classic, in that it was the story of two men, who genuinely loved each other, and cared for each other, but that were simply friends. That they were lifelong friends, and couldn't see their lives without each other in them. But that it had nothing to do with sexuality. Tim Robbins said that specifically in an interview a couple decades ago, with Morgan, and the director. So I appreciate that people want to see their favorite pairings get sexy with each other, but it is a bit depressing as well on some level.

[@grumpyotter]

I just wrote basically the same comment, but you said it better. I SO agree. I think our society is still quite immature in that way. The example I used was Sam and Frodo.

[@astaiannymph]

I commented on grumpyotter's post, but I want to explain a little more here. This comment could seem to be saying "so much gay shipping is robbing us of good male friendships" whereas someone could read this comment and go "so much promotion of male friendships is robbing us of gay romantic relationships". The reality is that both sides have legit problems with the media not representing a diverse range of human relationships. I should know; I'm a queer, aromantic guy who feels both "sides". In reality, the shippers and friendshippers should band together to demand more queer relationships and better, less toxic friendships between men.

[@fizzplease6742]

“Shrancher” oh my god. I dont really use those combo ship names but i’ll make an exception for that.

[@NethDugan]

Kirk stated that Spock's soul was his responsibility, as much as his own. Gene created the word t'hy'la for Kirk and Spock, the definition of which includes 'lover'. So. Yeah, it's got its hints and its foundations. On the Garak/Bashir front the actors performed a play at cons where they declared their love for each other. I live in the hope that one day a Trek series will make them canon. Cause in my mind there's no way Bashir didn't go hunt Garak down one day and set up home.

[@elytra404]

18:00 the lack of mentioning tom and harry, they where instant besties and adorable

[@jessicare5331]

"The only thing that keeps him from. Jumping Kirk's bones right there is the fact that Bones is right there" Love it

[@dougkhazzam]

Thanks! This is episode opened my eyes and brought on a transformation in my ideas about love and what it means not just for fictional people but for people in my life (including myself).

[@theatheistpaladin]

I ship me and 7 of 9. As I am sure many other men and women would.

[@wellingtonsmith4998]

Geordi and Data in Measure of a Man... well shit, you just made me cry Steve I HOPE YOU'RE HAPPY 😥😥😥😭😭😭😭😭