How powerful was Ungoliant?

[@Dragowolf_Rising]

Although I don't think it was Tolkien's intent, to me, Ungoliant seems almost like a sentient black hole. The more she eats, the bigger and stronger she gets, but also the hungrier. She consumes even light, but starved long enough, self destructs. She IS the outer darkness, given form and a name, even if only for a time.

[@DaBIONICLEFan]

It won't have been his intent as black holes hadn't been discovered when Tolkien wrote this stuff.

[@clumpski]

​@@DaBIONICLEFan true, but the concept of a ever consuming and expanding darkness isn't a particularly new concept *spelling mistake

[@Emguilla]

​​@@DaBIONICLEFanIIRC black holes were at least theorised long before the writing of LOTR, so altought it may sounds a very peculiar idea at the time, it's not impossible Tolkien heard of it and was somewhat inspired :)

[@David.Bowman.]

@@DaBIONICLEFannot necessarily, Einstein’s paper was published in 1915 so there’s a small possibility Tolkien was aware of such things

[@ToothpikcOriginal]

If one wanted to project modern understandings of cosmology onto Tolkien, as we do with Christian texts, then sure. For Tolkien though, I'm sure she was just a scary spider :)

[@spyguy318]

“Before there was anything, there was nothing. And before there was nothing, there were monsters.”

[@migarsormrapophis2755]

I doubt it was Tolkein's intention, but the line about her descending from the void that sits about the world almost makes it sound like Ungoliant was a space alien, or a Lovecraftian entity.

[@SolariusScorch]

​@@migarsormrapophis2755As I understand Silmarillion, Eru was the sole creator of Arda, but it's uncertain if he was also creator of the void. The text suggests that the void simply exists, perhaps has always existed without any beginning, and is more like a place, or canvas, where Eru built his opus magnum. It is an extremely mysterious concept, and even Melkor, before he openly rebelled, was supposedly exploring the void in search of the power of creation. If this line of reasoning has any merit, then yes, Ungoliant is very much a Lovecraftian entity.

[@Colorcrayons]

@@SolariusScorch Illuvator was the sole creator, period. The only mystery is how Illuvator formed from the infinite void itself. But I suppose that question answers itself as he alone has the power of creation. Many argue that it was the Ainulindale which created arda, and while this concert is its genesis, it was Illuvator who created the ainur to help him in this task. And this is the reason why melkor failed in his travels throughout the infinite void for that power. He searched in all places other than that which created him in the first place. His downfall is the denial of objective reality, in his attempt to create a false narrative in his own image. That lie can only last so long before the Fire burns it away which is just an conceptual poetic abstraction of being exposed to the objective truth.

[@jahmokaeperson4580]

I think that went over everyone else's head but I get the reference fam dont worry lmao

[@stevencraeynest7729]

Adventure Time!

[@isomeme]

I'm glad you mentioned Tom Bombadil as a mystery similar to Ungoliant. I tend to think of them as complementary, the light and dark embodiments of some divine power that is intrinsic to Arda from the moment of its creation. I can't help but imagine that the Ainur find Tom nearly as unsettling as Ungoliant. Both of them are inexplicable, powerful anomalies in a world the Ainur want to think they understand.

[@12classics39]

A great theory I once heard is Tom is the embodiment of the Music of the Ainur and Ungoliant is the embodiment of Melkor’s discord.

[@etienneporras7252]

The idea of the Ainur being as concerned about Tom as they are Ungoliant seems like an hilarious concept. And then instantly, a terrifying one.

[@bluesbest1]

@@12classics39 That fits nicely with the whole "If all else is conquered by Sauron, Tom would also fall. Last as he was first" thing Robert touched on in his video on Tom. If all the Music has been disrupted, then there is no song, just a mess of sound.

[@GaryM67-71]

I would suggest that both Tom and Ungoliant were already there before Creation began on Arda.

[@sirix500111]

@@GaryM67-71 I kind of like this idea. To continue with the thoughts of everyone above, Tom is music, and Ungoliant is silence, complimentary opposites, that Eru then used to create everything.

[@griffiththechad9483]

She made Saurons boss shit himself and scream for dozens or even hundreds of Balrogs to come save him from her unholy asswhooping. She’s gotta be pretty powerful.

[@Cadrieldur]

It was actually Melkor that called for help and Balrogs came to aid him against Ungoliant. In his prime, Melkor was insanely more powerful than Ungoliant.

[@Dragblacker]

@@Cadrieldur He said "Sauron's boss" which is Melkor.

[@Cadrieldur]

@@Dragblacker You're right. I totally misread it.

[@toopacked4077]

haha neither dozens nor hundreds. there were like 7-8 of them at most. she is badass, but Melkor is the most powerful being asides from the creator Eru himself. he was severely weakened while Ungo was considerably stronger at the time.

[@alexanderwetherell4779]

Wrong tolkien said their had to be more than 2 less than 7 balrogs at all times

[@thebatmary5954]

If I were one of the balrogs and saw that thing on the thumbnail attacking Morgoth, I’d be like, “You’re on your own, boss! Have a nice day, ma’am!”

[@maulros]

you underestimate those balrogs

[@thebatmary5954]

Oh, no… I know THEY went and got him out of there. I’m just saying that /I/ would’ve left him. Sometimes you gotta have boundaries 😝

[@simoneriksson8329]

"I am not paid enough for this!" 😂

[@One-wm4cc]

​@thebatmary5954 you are speaking as a human, maybe you would be more fearless as a balrog?

[@thebatmary5954]

@@One-wm4cc Thank you for your faith in the theoretical balrog version of me 😊

[@taicanium]

My favorite theory, courtesy of Nerd of the Rings, is that Ungoliant was a sort of sentient manifestation, or incarnation of the Discord of Melkor. His chaos given form and a mind of its own. Likewise, Tom Bombadil could be a similar incarnation of the Music of the Ainur in its pure form, which would explain why the One Ring had no effect on him and why his song was so capable of driving away evil spirits and healing damaged beings.

[@sirpepeofhousekek6741]

I agree. I think that she and the nameless things are unintended side effects of Melkor'a corruption.

[@DanielAnicSaz]

I also agree and I think to think of Tom Bombadil as some kind of avatar of the music of the ainurs itself is a good theory I also believe in.

[@RHCole]

I think Bombadil was an Ainur who was already where Arda would be made when it was made and simply chose to stay.

[@grapesofhypocrisy9842]

I have a different take... the 2 original stories of nature... the path of nature or the path of nurture. Tom is nurture and Ungoliant is nature... so when Ungoliant is more powerful then Melkor... Ungoliant makes her play. Since Tom is nurture he has no desire to rule over others... just to protect everyone from themselves and others... which is why he scolds old man willow, but let him stay so close to his home.

[@marcosgin777]

Best theory makes the most sense in this cass

[@Forsworcen]

Ungoliant is my favorite monster from the LoTR books and one of my first gripes with the Rings of Power was not showing her when they opened with the fall of the trees. They didn’t even need to have her on screen, just showing a spider shaped shadow over the trees would have been enough. That only was the start of my gripes of course but it started the show out on a sour note for me as a big fan of her.

[@Jordichurch]

I couldn’t agree more. They should have stayed true to the text in certain critical aspects.

[@Theomite]

They might not have the rights to depict her. Notice there's no hint of the Blue Wizards yet either, and they couldn't even mention their names in THE HOBBIT films either.

[@dannyj2571]

I don't think they had the rights to show her. That's my gripe with these adaptations.

[@SiriusSphynx]

Them not having rights only makes rings of power a knock off imitation. I don't consider it part of the true story. It's store brand Tolkien, ordered on Amazon, at a discount.

[@UnsoberIdiot]

Do not even mention such blasphemy. That "show" is an abomination that has no right to exist, and should never be mentioned in polite company.

[@KorithStoneheart]

I think she was one of the nameless things, like the watcher in the water and the things below Moria

[@JohnnyWednesday]

Two of the nameless things have names?

[@inthefade]

You can't name where they come from, what their race is. They are from outside of Iru Illuvitar's creation. As I See Illuvitar as Tolkien himself (the creator of Middle Earth, after all) I see them as things from the dark parts of his imagination, or even references to other authors (Lovecraft, obviously). Similarly Bombadil comes from a different fictional world of his, and that is why he unaffected and uninterested in the rules and goings on of Middle Earth.

[@sirpepeofhousekek6741]

​@@inthefadeMy theory is that they are unintended side-effects of Melkor's corruption of creation.

[@MPD90]

@@JohnnyWednesday The 'named things' just doesn't have the same ring to it 😂

[@indoorplant2392]

Ungoliant always felt more like a “glitch” in the system to me, almost like an alien, not from this world, entity

[@Frodo1000000]

Time: 23pm, 1h past bedtime Me: ...but how powerful was Ungoliath?

[@professorx3060]

Hahahaha samee, but 1am here

[@Webshadow]

Guilty ...

[@thecauldron2212]

I start a new job tomorrow and i'm here listening to Tolkien lore

[@hobartpaving8986]

23PM, that’s late! :)

[@eagle_and_the_dragon]

23 past mid-day? So 11 after midnight?

[@primal1233]

She was able to take on Morgoth and beat him. That alone signifies how powerful she is

[@charlesfisher-kh5sw]

dude, Morgoth was a wimp in personal combat. he lost to a single elf.

[@lolcats4ever]

she got lucky!!!

[@ssl3546]

no, Morgoth lost a ton of his power by corrupting Middle Earth. The entire "Morgoth's Ring" explains this concept.

[@GRB-tj6uj]

​​@@charlesfisher-kh5swby the time of that fight Morgoths personal power was heavily diminished because he put so much of himself in Arda (see Morgoths Ring). The Morgoth that retreated from Ungoliant would've crushed Fingolfin without breaking a sweat

[@ZazeH]

U missing a lot of points there, like the fact that ungoliant was only that big and powerful because he consumed the 2 trees and a lot of gems

[@Lion-vl5ys]

My personal favorite theory is she is the personification of Melkors discord itself and the reason she grows stronger with devouring light it that it adds to the discord, with light being the original musics purest form, ultimately strengthening her. The Valar may not have known about her as she was an unintended consequence of creation and perhaps even beyond the knowledge of all but Eru as to her true nature, maybe in a similar way to the other nameless things. Her ultimate fate is perhaps linked to how ultimately the discord was not stable and would eventually fall being contrary to the initial designs of Eru, with the discord feeding on itself once it had been diminished over time by the various wounds inflicted upon Arda by Morgoth and his followers. Her character is one of the best things about Tolkien’s world and how so many theories and philosophies can be attributed to her make her, to me at least, one of his worlds most fascinating characters. As much as I’d love to know her true nature, along with the other nameless things and that of the void itself, perhaps it’s better left as an exercise to the reader to explain as to how they all fit into their own unique reading of Tolkiens wondrous world.

[@AllAhabNoMoby]

How insane is this?? I spent hours and hours last night researching her! HOME, UT, Silmarillion, everything! What awesome timing!

[@MeanBeanComedy]

Dude lives in our walls, apparently.

[@ElroyMcDuff]

What does HOME and UT stand for?

[@alistairmackintosh9412]

​@@ElroyMcDuffHistory of Middle Earth, Unfinished Tales.

[@AllAhabNoMoby]

@@ElroyMcDuff History of Middle-Earth and Unfinished Tales.

[@ElroyMcDuff]

@@alistairmackintosh9412 Thanks!

[@andrewlilico2218]

I quite like the theory that Tom.Bombadil is the personification of the harmony of the Song of Creation and Ungoliant is the personification of the dischord in the song that Melkor caused. Thus Ungoliant would be a being that is more than a creation of chaos - she is the totality of chaos, the ur-chaos itself. This theory also has the interesting consequence that Morgoth was almost consumed by the chaos he himself unleashed - not metaphorically but literally.

[@ballinbalgruuf8198]

If she is Melkor's discord then Melkor should have been her master, just as the other Melkor's foul creatures. But as we have seen, her only master was herself. So no, I don't think Melkor had anything to do with her existence. Even the valar did not know where she came from.

[@andrewlilico2218]

@@ballinbalgruuf8198Melkor may have controlled the notes that meant there was discord, but he did not control the discord itself - that arose from the clash between the notes he controlled and the notes others controlled.

[@ballinbalgruuf8198]

@@andrewlilico2218 That's just headcanon

[@lachiem]

Ungoliant videos from both you and Men Of The West in the space of just over a day, we're truly blessed 🙏

[@counterspellgoon6854]

they dont say anything but rehash the same crap. this video is about how powerful she is, yet just describes what she did. like duh we know that already, get clever with it cause its just spewing the same ol rhetoric

[@naglesfilms]

@@counterspellgoon6854 bruv what do you want from them? Tolkien's dead lmao it's not like they can just magic up new stuff

[@ApexATL]

@@counterspellgoon6854lmao imagine being mad about the fact that some KZbinrs can’t magic up fresh, unread Tolkien lore

[@WhichDoctor1]

i like the idea that she was some kind of primordial entity from the void beyond reality. Not created by Eru but like a spontaneous personification of the void. Basically a kind of eldar god. It would explain why she appears soo fundamentally different from the Valar and soo powerful. Also would explain her infinite hunger. Of course the void is going to want to consume everything

[@jaronbridges4784]

Synonymous to IT

[@ducksparrowmybel8night430]

I wonder if Eru know what she is atleast

[@Jorlem25]

Thinking about it, I'm not sure "greed" is the best term to apply to Ungoliant. I think "glutton" would be more accurate, as greed implies the desire to possess, while glutton is all about consuming. Ungoliant wasn't greedy, she was gluttonous.

[@michelecastellotti9172]

They are synonims at the end of the day. Glutton is just greed but only for food and beverages and greed is just gluttony for more money, jewels and other things that make you materialistically rich

[@Jorlem25]

⁠@@michelecastellotti9172They are similar, yes, but not synonymous. Gluttony is the desire to consume, while Greed is the desire to possess. Ungoliant is gluttonous, as she desired to eat everything she could, to the point where she eventually ate herself. If she wasn’t stopped, perhaps she would have tried to eat all of Middle Earth. If Ungoliant was greedy, she would have instead desired to own, to control, to possess all Middle Earth as her own, but she didn’t. That fits someone else though, I think.

[@jimjonesuk7527]

Well said

[@villekuronen6242]

@@Jorlem25 Ungoliant wouldnt have stopped on eating Middle-Earth, she would have eaten all of creation and then herself

[@xavierfranco5800]

She's entropy personified.

[@migarsormrapophis2755]

It always blew my mind that Tolkein set up this character to be able to threaten Morgoth. "Hi, I'm the devil." "And I'm the one who almost managed to eat the devil, and had him screaming for help from his demons like a little bitch."

[@adamantiiispencespence4012]

The Silmarillion kinda places alot of qualifiers to that. For one she had just got to eat The Silmarils which gave her a huge power boost and Morgoth by contrast was weakened.

[@theenderdestruction2362]

After the devil was heavily weakened cause he put bis power into so much and said spider was heavily buffed cause she ate the light of two powerful trees and a bit of said devils powers

[@erikmartinez1384]

@@theenderdestruction2362 I like the idea that Melkor would have at first been more powerful than her, but she had a unique ability he did not: she could drain and truly kill off the trees. He needed her, despite all his power. He was never all powerful. However, her ability allowed her to gain power far past her base or even Melkor's imagining. This goes back to evil being it's own undoing. Evil in it's machinations often sets in motion consequences it never comprehended. Melkor thought he would be able to handle her. He learned the universe of possibilities was still much more vast then he grasped.

[@theenderdestruction2362]

@erikmartinez1384 Well, it was a mix of her, you know, draining the trees and so gaining a huge power boost and melkor also being very weak from putting so much of his power into middle earth itself so you aint wrong though

[@villekuronen6242]

@@adamantiiispencespence4012 not to forget how big power boost she got from eating those two tree's in Valinor and then eating all the gems Morgoth stole along Silmariollions

[@davidkulmaczewski4911]

Perhaps she fled to one of the new continents when Arda was made round. A little place called Derry, Maine.

[@r3mpuh]

👃

[@SenseiSifuMaster]

Where are the silmarils Georgie?!

[@thomashauguel6811]

Very good video! I especially enjoyed the comparison between Ungoliant's hunger for the Simarils and her daughter Shelob's downfall by the light from them (even if only a reflection of that light). You are definitely on form in this one!

[@Destroyer94100]

I wanna see the Balrogs rescuing Melkor and also Melkor's duel with Fingolfin in live action so bad!

[@indoorplant2392]

Will be disappointing af, much rather have it animated

[@felixloewenich2202]

This kind of shit is the problem. You're the problem. Shit like this is why we got that trainwreck called The Rings of Power

[@Destroyer94100]

@@felixloewenich2202 I hate to break it to you but I’ve got nothing to do with the Rings of power. Maybe you should complain to the people who made that show instead of random people online.

[@puckerings]

​@@felixloewenich2202 Yes we get, your fandom of Tolkien is primarily defined by what you hate, not what you like. Very sad, but typical of angry fanboys online.

[@felixloewenich2202]

@@puckerings What a confused mess of a comment. I don't give much of a shit about Tolkien specifically, I'm distraught by manchildren wanting cOoL fLaShY fIgHtS over stories with substance. Which is how we get shit like the star wars prequels, rings of power or late season game of thrones.

[@tomdalsin5175]

The very first book I ever got from a role-playing-game store, back in the early 1980s, was a Middle Earth Role Playing module, Shelob's Lair. In there, Ungoliant was obviously mentioned. I became fascinated with Shelob and Ungoliant... a huge, terrifying spider monster, as powerful as a dragon. Shelob had various spells, creating effects like terror, darkness, draining motivation, creating illusions, afflicting with hallucinations... she had her countless brood, spiderlings ranging in size from a dog to a horse. It was so different for little nine year old me, to see such awesome and terrifying menace in the shape of a spider. Until then it was always dragons, or giants, or demons. I always preferred the unusual. To this day, these are still some of my favorite terrors of Tolkien's world.

[@ArvelJoffi]

I loved playing the Middle-Earth role playing game as a teen in the 80s. I still think of some of my adventures fondly.

[@Matthias333]

sigh, 🎯, that depiction of Ungoliant at 08:39 will live rent free in my head from now on

[@helixxharpell]

Ungoliant, or the thought of her became Lloth The Spider Queen. That hideous goddess who's children, "The Drow" have plagued many a realm in Dungeons & Dragons for decades.

[@fangthedergon1863]

Firstly it's spelled Lolth, secondly she isn't a goddes she is a demon lord that terrorizes and manipulates the Drow into worship, and thirdly Lolth already has a really cool back story where they were previously the elven goddess Aurashnee. The only things really in common are the hating people and a spider motif which is already a really common trope.

[@TheRealMan_EmperorHimself]

​@@fangthedergon1863 you're about three editions behind she's now a greater deity, ascended from the pits

[@fangthedergon1863]

@TheRealMan_EmperorHimself Damn, your right. I am big enough to admit when I am wrong and I need to brush up on my D&D lore

[@Cosper79]

Imagine the movie version of the draining of the trees, being the opposite of Wizard of Oz. Beautiful bright color movoe reduced to a black and white film as Ungoliant feasts upon the sap of the trees.

[@TheDeppertLasseVogt]

I mean, that's basically how they depict it in The Rings of Power, but without showing Ungoliant herself, most likely for rights reasons or to make things simpler for newcomers. All we see in that scene is the shadow of Morgoth and the trees dying, which is the gist of it, of course. Still, I would love to see at least a hint of Ungoliant herself in future visual adaptations of Tolkiens works.

[@UnsoberIdiot]

@@TheDeppertLasseVogt Do not mention such utter blasphemous filth ever again.

[@billmiller4972]

A kind of Black Hole, the more it devours the more hungry it becomes and when at last it has consumed everything in its surroundings it slowly dies by Hawking radiation.

[@KyIeMcCIeIIan]

Ungoliant the great light eating spider made the literal dark god Melkor scream so loudly his minions heard him from the next continent if memory serves. All of Tolkiens spiders are nightmare fuel.

[@MariaVosa]

The illustration at 8:40 is fantastic! If they ever adapt these parts of The Silmarillion I hope they use that as a template.

[@thomasferraro479]

Into The Storm by Blind Guardian is an awesome song about this. You should review the entire album Nightfall in Middle Earth. One of the best albums ever.

[@_BenX]

I have been waiting for this video!!!

[@Deathstar_TV]

Another great vid man. I just wanted to say thankyou for staying true to your channel by not forcing us to look at your face for the entire video unlike most channels these days… the great artworks in the background really immerses me every time so I just felt I should say thankyou!!!

[@thebaconcruesader]

Dude, I for real didn't realised I wasn't subscribed T_T your stuff was forever recommended to me and I just assumed... Long time watcher, huge fan! Thankyou for your work

[@johns1625]

"What wouldst thou have more? Dost thou desire all the world for thy belly? I did not vow to give thee that. I am its Lord..." After consuming the entire life and light of Laurelin and Telperion she was likely the most powerful being in Arda in that short time. She also ate nearly all of the Noldorin jewels, including most if not all the previous works of Feanor. Even Morgoth was shocked when she stopped him to demand he feed her more.

[@craigmusa2254]

The fact "morgoth was afraid" is absolutely terrifying

[@Dr_Cole]

I opted to subscribe to you channel a few months back and have enjoyed the content. The diversity of LOTR topics is vast, which I very much favor. Your presentation with a decidedly polite British disposition suck me in even further. Americans, I find, are naturally drawn to this approach for presentation as clear, expert, and something to which calls us to pay great attention. Thanks.

[@bigtoe333333]

Really enjoyed that analysis- concise yet still compelling. It's not just an accurate summary of the facts and detail of these tales, but also a well reasoned and balanced analysis of the different scenarios.

[@flawedperspective]

My speculation is that Ungoliant was the embodiment of the first discordant tones Melkor tried to put into the Music.

[@Mophony]

I really like that idea

[@Njello09]

Absolutely loved this video! So informative and well thought on describing the unfathomable power of Ungoliant. Gave me the chills! Can't wait for more content like this!

[@gabrielhoelzle8476]

Maybe she's like Eru. Something that existed before the valar and somehow found her way to Arda. I like the theory that she was born out of the dissonance in the creation song, like some sort of glitch in the code of the reality. If true it would give her some real eldritch horror vibes

[@glamourweaver]

I’m not opposed to the concept of a force of “void” and “negation” that exists in primordial opposition to “creation” and “Creator” - but I can’t imagine Tolkien intending that given the underlying Christian worldview of his cosmology where Eru is going to precedes everything including void which only exists by His will.

[@DjVortex-w]

My headcanon is that, just like the Nameless Things, Ungoliant was inadvertently created by the dissonant singing of Melkor in the very beginning of creation, almost before there was anything else. After all, Melkor was trying to create his own things, so by attempting to do that he, deliberately or more likely semi-inadvertently, ended up creating the Nameless Things as well as Ungoliant. They were created into the initial void of nothingness, from which they moved into Arda when it eventually appeared.

[@charlesqbanks]

That opening art for Ungoliant is so shockingly unnerving in it's uniquely grotesque design... I don't think I've seen anything so uniquely disturbing before. WOW

[@PeterTeal77]

It is a little known fact from one of Tolkein’s letters that after consuming mass greater than the misty mountains, Ungolient moved to a small island on Arda called England and became known as “your mum”.

[@alexrocky9147]

What a wonderful piece as always. A neat 10mn of pure high value content and insightful reflections. Thank you so much!

[@enoughothis]

It's interesting that it took the Balrogs, demons of fire AND darkness to drive her away with their fiery whips. It is perhaps that being creatures of darkness themselves the Balrogs had some resistance to her Unlight?

[@eugenebelford9087]

I don't think so. To cast this "Unlight" seems not to be not an existential trait of hers but more a power she can summon. But she probably/ most likely IMHO cannot summon that power whilst actively trying to fight a Vala. A little bit like Aule wouldn't be able to forge a chain to bind Melkor whilst being engaged fighting him. Besides that, it'd also somewhat contradict the Gandalf on the Bridge of Khazad-dum regarding the "Flame of Anor" and (implicated) it being more powerful than the fire a Balrog wields. How much more powerful and piercing must have been the light which Yvanna and Nienna could create (Laurelin) or - most of all - the piercing light of Varda.Certainly far beyond the scale of Balrogs. Simply put, I think it's the same as with Klingon and Romulan warships: Either she's cloaked, or she can fire her torpedoes. 🙂

[@MPD90]

@@eugenebelford9087 It's just a spider mate, pop it in a glass and take it outside.

[@Cosper79]

I think darkness and unlight are two different things. Darkness would be the absence of light. Unlight would be the anti-thesis of light. Unlight would literally put out light. As if you could take a shadow and throw in onto a light to snuff it out.

[@MPD90]

@@Cosper79 So what you're saying is that if I turn my lamp off I get darkness, but if I throw a blanket over my lamp I get unlight?

[@MeanBeanComedy]

​@@MPD90 No, if you turn the lamp off, you get darkness. If you destroy it, you get unlight

[@WhoIsCalli]

Always so intriguing. Thanks for this Robert 🕷️

[@skbproject5589]

Tolkien almost died from a spider bite when he was little, so he hated spiders, and made them the worst thing in his universe. As well, the spider Ungoliant reminds me of Dante's Inferno. There is a place referred to as the "Anteferno" that is underneath hell, and burns even hotter. Anteferno/unlight have similar connotation. Great video! I just wanted to share those tid bits.

[@PlazDreamweaver]

I think Ungoliant represents evil as a concept. Born from Morgoth's apostasy, but something more powerful than him. She's a caster of webs which her supposed creator was trapped within due to his pride. The Valar can't see past her unlight because it's so opposite to them, they can't fathom it. It is always hungry and grows from consuming light, as evil is and does by nature. Evil isn't just darkness-a lack of light. Rather evil is the opposite of light, or unlight. With Morgoth being a parallel to the devil, you can imagine Ungoliant embodying sin and death, which both sprang from the devil's betrayal and were in hell before the devil was cast down. As they were never part of God's creation, and thus were never in Heaven, and are not a lack of light, but the direct opposite of light. So sin and death are the embodiment of evil as an entire concept, much like Ungoliant may be. That can also explain why Ungoliant devouring herself is such a direct symbol of evil consuming itself once it consumes everything else it can. As evil is the opposition to life, and thus is sin and death.

[@Kaiyanwang82]

Imagine a fight with 3-7 balrogs and they are the underdogs fighting the desperate fight. And remember, that's pre-depowering Morgoth. Welp.

[@JamesGarrity-c3l]

Another parallel with Shelob is it was her own strength that proved her downfall, in that it allowed sting to pierce her when trying to crush Sam

[@kesho9666]

Can you re-upload the "did Sauron know about Aragorn (no, and he feared him nonetheless)" video? That is one of your best, even for your high standards, thanks y saludos desde México.

[@RoosterCogburnPhD]

The ancient Greeks had an occasional tradition of referring to the untamed wilderness as dangerous, scary, unknowable darkness. It's possible that Tolkien appreciated that naturalist view of the wild vs. the goodly order of the civilized world and Ungoliant was informed partially by that view.

[@nightmare348]

Ungoliant the Ever-Ravenous. Her hunger eventually got so uncontrollable, she ended up devouring herself.

[@joebush9460]

As a drunken 34 year old, stumbling across your video, the introduction especially made me feel welcome and just felt like a nice touch. Thank you. 😊

[@over1498]

Tolkeins mythology and archetypes are unparalleled. Even corrupt and evil beings can't control greed and addiction, they're not on the same team.

[@samtagg8754]

I like the version where she is some mysterious entity bred in the void that crept into the dark places of the world and it explains how she was able to best Morgoth surely no Mia would have been capable of that!

[@annecarter5181]

“…..the unlight of Ungoliant”. That phrase is so chilling!

[@sackbeatgaming7751]

Love your videos

[@Uncle_Fred]

Almost no artists do her justice. Ungoliant is stated to be a create of unlight, with tenticles like spider legs emanating from her central mass. The darkness it cast upon the world numbed senses and thoughts alike. This thing was far crazier than a spider-like being. Mortals in Tolkien's universe would probably be stricken dead long before they'd even get a chance to glimpse her, if there was even anything to be seen at all in the mortal realm.

[@xJAKEx117x]

I'm not a huge fan of the Lord of the Rings. At least the movies, but I do appreciate the deep lore a lot of the time and this was no exception. I have never read any of the books, I'm not much of a reader. Thank you for the in depth on a character I have never heard of before.

[@RicardoHoPe]

Excellent video!

[@HECKproductions]

"unlight" is actually what the dark type in pokemon is called in some languages

[@awesomehpt8938]

Ungoliant is why lots of people are justifiably afraid of and hate spiders.

[@elrond_hubbard]

She's a hottie. 😍

[@jacobshore5115]

She’s certainly indicative of Tolkien’s hate and fear for spiders!

[@Mountainmonths]

it's really irrational. spiders are good bugs and don't want to hurt anybody.

[@Silversmith70]

@@MountainmonthsThis sounds like something a spider would say.

[@DaBIONICLEFan]

​@@jacobshore5115Tolkien himself wasn't scared of spiders as I've read. There are two sources I've come across that broach this; a letter to W.H. Auden as follows: "I do not dislike spiders particularly, and have no urge to kill them. I usually rescue those whom I find in the bath!" Then a 1961 interview: "I don't like spiders. It's not a pathological fear, but I rather won't have anything to do with them". Tolkien was apparently bitten by a tarantula in South Africa as a boy which may have had some affect on his attitude to them, as many fears and phobias arise from a negative childhood encounter. In a 1957 interview, he explained the reason for putting giant spiders in his work: "I put in the spiders largely because this was, you remember, primarily written for my children (at least I had them in mind), and one of my sons [Michael] in particular dislikes spiders with a great intensity. I did it to thoroughly frighten him and it did!" So Tolkien was somewhat inconsistent in his opinions on spiders but I think we can at least rule out he had a particularly strong fear of them.

[@Doyouthinkhesaurus2]

It reminds me of the question of why the Phial of Galadriel didn't seem to be considered as "amazing" as the silmarils, or elicit the same kind of "greedy" reactions in others, since both captured the light of the trees (albeit the phial indirectly, and the light from the phial was presumably not nearly as bright as the silmarils)... But both emitted their light all on their own (even without batteries!)... I believe Galadriel made the phial herself, but was it with the help of her ring? If so, did the phial still work after the one ring was unmade? (I don't recall if this was mentioned or alluded to in the books or not)...

[@Matkin222]

Robert, there is something I have been wondering for a few months now. Why is it that the three trolls in the Hobbit are the only ones ever shown to talk, or even to have names and wear clothes? In every other instance I can think of they are portrayed as being brutish, unable to speak, wearing nothing more than rags, basically just dumb muscle. Why are the three in the Hobbit the exception? Would love a video on this if you ever get the time from your planned upload schedule.

[@marcosgin777]

📠

[@LurkerAnonymous]

Ungoliant is Wirilomë the Gloomweaver - Primeval spirit of night, and believed to be a creature bred of the darkness of the Void. A being from 'before the world', perverted by Melkor, who "had been her lord, though she denied him". "Mayhap she was bred of mists and darkness on the confines of the Shadowy Seas, in that utter dark that came between the overthrow of the Lamps and the kindling of the Trees, but more like she has always been". She was Melkor’s intended bride before he angered her by preferring Elbereth. She apparently ran away to the Void and descended to Arda after the main fighting of the First War was over.

[@MJHKing1]

Very nicely done. Appreciate the summary for someone's who's new

[@jacebales2951]

Beautiful sum up at the end!

[@mktf5582]

Did Shelob succumb to her wounds by Sam or simply survive/scurry away, in ROTK we never see/know.

[@jamesdosdall8391]

I know you linked artists in the descriptions, but which of those artists did the Balrogs at 5:11? My whole life I have searched in vain for a visual depiction of Balrogs that matches my mental image, and I could never find one until now!

[@DonLoco3]

A most excellent video! Many thanks!

[@General12th]

Hi Geek! I like to think Ungoliant was a sixteenth Vala, but unlike the other fifteen, she wasn't "meant" to be a part of Arda, and instead sneaked in later on. Maybe Melkor summoned her the same way the other Valar called Tulkas. Maybe she sneaked in from the Void, or perhaps from another world after she finished devouring it.

[@emilmuff4760]

Loved the elf playing pedal steel. Take me home Valinor road.

[@Jalbesbe]

The two main understandings of Ungoliant's creation is either yes being born of the discourse of the song of creation, or being one of the creatures of the void that came into creation, similar to the nameless things. Except she wasn't trapped beneath the earth. It would also make sense for why they didn't know exactly what she was or her power, because it wasn't something made from them, but something of the void.

[@TheSamwhyte]

I always felt that Ungoliant was a physical representation of corruption and being wary of seeking victory at any cost. “Power corrupts - absolute power corrupts absolutely.” For me, this also shines in her demise of her herself.

[@moomah5929]

With "she consumer herself", why do I have to think of the Simpsons, when Homer was "cursed" to have a donut head? "Oh, but I'm so sweet and tasty!" I guess her powers where gravity based. Like a black hole, that even pulls in light. Her hunger was also black-holish. xD

[@cachokosmodisk]

You took this to another level.

[@micro7vista]

I hope you do Dune stuff soon your channel and voice seems perfect for it.

[@ailblentyn]

I think relating Ungoliant to Tom Bombadil is spot on. I think that apart from the angelology of Ainur and the ethnography of Middle Earth, Tolkien’s world has powerful forces birth their own personifications. Bombadil is the created world itself, or at least part of it. Ungoliant is chaos and night.

[@TheSanezu]

I think she represents cardinal sin gluttony. I get the feeling many other characters do this too. I could be wrong of course. Melkor/Morgoth: Wrath. Ungoliant: Gluttony. Sauron: Pride. Saruman: Envy. Gollum and Nazguls: Greed. Dragons: Sloth. Grima Wormtongue: Lust.

[@valiantredneck]

Well done and thank you. One of the better if not one of the best descriptions of this beast. Again, well done and thank you for your effort’s.

[@fosheimdet]

"As long as long as you pay the electricity bill and change the bulb, there will always be light" -Tolkien probably

[@jackdavis855]

Very interesting as usual keep the LOTR stuff coming!

[@michaelhart7569]

A fair summary. The title is a difficult question, and, for me, the darkest part of Tolkien's works. Even Morgoth became afraid and outmatched. It also seems to be the point in the legendarium where darkness became a source of fear, to mortals at least. There was no sun before these events and a perpetual pleasant twilight from the two trees seems to have regulated a slower pace of life in Arda. Frodo comments obliquely on this at the marriage of Arwen and Aragorn saying that "Now not only day only shall be beloved, but night too shall be beautiful and blessed and all its fear pass away."

[@professorhazard]

Between the origin in the void and the mastery of anti-light, we may not know much about Ungoliant - but I am 100% sure she's the same species as IT, AKA Pennywise.

[@sixthjayhawk]

I like what another KZbinr shared: that Ungoliant might be the embodiment of The Discord that Melkor started, while Tom Bombadil is the embodiment of the Music of Eru/the Ainur. Kinda makes sense as no one knows where either came from, but they’re both very powerful but don’t seem to be Maia. 🤷‍♀️

[@nicholaswiley1692]

My favorite theory of Ungoliant is that she is a primeval creature, much like the nameless things deep in the Misty Mountains, and is a byproduct of Melkor’s discord during the Music of the Ainur.

[@GaryM67-71]

Nah, pre-existed the songs for sure.

[@indoorplant2392]

@@GaryM67-71could be a side reaction product from the creation of the universe, a residue of nothingness, extracted from the original mess that became actual reality

[@GaryM67-71]

@@indoorplant2392 What few realise is that pre-creation the universe already existed (irl dark matter). Eru created stuff, light, music, matter too. But a dark still universe was already there, full of nasties. Tolkien had divine inspiration for his books from our irl God (The Word). But he didn't realise it. The earliest hominids in Tolkien were created without souls and free will. This mirrors Genesis 1. Souls were added later in Tolkien, ditto in Genesis 2. Tolkien didn't realise this, it's contrary to common knowledge and to Catholic BS doctrine. But it's there in the chapters. Much more truth in Tolkien than you realise.

[@pageachatter229]

The fact that Ungoliant was able to make this world's equivalent of Satan genuinely fear for his life, to the point that he had to call for backup, gives some truly terrifying implications as to her power level.

[@joeshmoe7485]

It's interesting to think of Ungoliant as the opposite of Tom Bombadil. Mysterious and old as the world, or even the universe itself. Tom Bombadil embodying all that is good, joy, light and happiness. While Ungoliant is the essence of darkness and hunger and violence. The embodiment of primeval forces as it were.

[@nilskiemle9556]

Tolkien is just a fictional genius for leaving a lot of partially explained mysteries for people to talk about for decades to come. I can't get tired reading different theories from people and every now and then, they come up with even new and more interesting theories, making this legendarium so enjoyable even after reading it many times

[@samlachance1]

that shot at 4:02 is awesome; I was going to say "hire that artist for the show", but joke's on me; it was already FROM the show. Credit where credit is due, I suppose, lol.

[@b0ogeym4n_]

What show? ROP?

[@samlachance2]

​@@b0ogeym4n_ yes, from Galadriel's opening monologue in the first episode.

[@ultrapoci]

Is this a reupload/remake? I remember seeing this already

[@RedBairnMedia]

My deja vu senses were tingling...

[@ronanzann4851]

Ungoliant was created in those very first moments of discord, when Melcor added his own theme to the theme of Eru Ilúvatar. Thus from the sum and difference frequencies forming beings unrelated to the Valar or perhaps even Iluvatar itself. You might say that the "Difference" frequencies created Ungoliant, and that the "SUM" frequencies created Tom Bombadil.

[@bv_7766]

Btw It’s always a treat when you upload new middle earth lore vids.

[@grimdavid]

She could've destroyed everyone and everything in the Tolkien world to be honest. She was too powerful.

[@RichardT2112]

Bravo! Terrific summary!

[@TheTrytix]

Suppose it's somewhat fascinating how the scariest being in the Lord of the Ring's universe and the scariest being in the Star Wars universe are both guided by unsatiable hunger that only makes them stronger, more powerful and hungrier until the point they even start devouring their physical body. Ungolianth and Darth Nihilus (Yes, I know Abeloth might be scarier, but using her as the analogy wouldn't really work.) Difference of course being, Nihilus bound his own soul to his armor and continued operating as a half-dead phantom, where Ungolianth literally devoured herself fully.

[@thegatorhator6822]

I consider Ungoliant as a similar class of being as Tom Bombadil. Some kind of primordial spirit, perhaps an inherit function of Arda or even something that predates the world entirely. It's nice that it's a mystery what some of these beings are, that we can querie and question about it.

[@Thaumh]

"It's like poetry, they 'rhyme'." George Lucas. That said, I have a couple of theories regarding Ungoliant, Her origins and Her children, and how all that may relate to the works of other great writers. First, to her origins, I feel She was one of the Echthroi, the primary recurring villains in the sequels to 'A Wrinkle In Time'. The dark Enemy of all things Good and of the Light of Creation. Then for Her children, we know that after She was shooed away from Melkor by his Balrogs, it is known that She began producing offspring while engorged with the Light of the Trees. Many of these She ate Herself, but I believe that perhaps the very first She birthed while the Light was still fresh in Her system was none other than "It", the Deadlights who settled on Earth 500,000 years ago deep underground in a place the humans would one day call Derry Maine.

[@Sardonac]

There is perhaps a neat story to tell about Ungoleant's corpse. Adventurers go off adventuring and eventually find something so evil but which had also ingested the sap of the trees.

[@nicodemusedwards6931]

Ungoliant is at least more powerful than Old Man Bilbo Baggins. That’s all I can say for sure.

[@violetmoon2283]

What Galadriel says about the light is also literal. It was the only light (of the trees) that remained when the light (the trees) were extinguished.