Indian clubs. Military stance & HEMA

[@andrewraslan5348]

As a HEMA messer and longsword fighter, I have to make one correction to your assumptions. Your "military stance" and arm and wrist swings correspond well to modern sabre, broadsword, rapier etc. where wrist and forearm-driven cuts are more common. The "natural, athletic" stance and shoulder and core assistance that traditional Indo-Persian wrestlers would use is analogous to older medieval European traditions, where you would "fence with the while body" and wrestle a lot. I love your videos, but there is a strong divide between medieval concerns and mechanics ("dirtier" fighting, more wrestling, thicker protection to penetrate e.g. gambeson, maille, less protected hands) and modern concerns (lighter cuts, less protective clothing, complex hand protection, less wrestling etc)

[@HeroicSport]

You have a very valid point, heavy weapons vs lighter ones. But overall, you need to also be able to move well overall at the same time (whether it's an actual step or dodge) regardless of the type of weapon you use. From all the teaching that I have done since 2010 (and we learned in our Parkinson's study), I feel that one gets better balance and kinesthetic awareness by being more fluid. The military stance does have its place though for specific applications, and if one feels it will benefit them to use it for their weapon style, then by all means go for it!

[@Sam-vk8xd]

This channel is super underrated. You’re doing good work here.

[@HeroicSport]

Appreciated! help us spread the word :-)

[@manjitrupbikram]

I have been practicing indian clubs and martial arts for many years. Indian clubs are the exercise par excellance for martial arts training. The traditional Indian and Persian club swinging were developed to train warriors how to fight. Consequently they used the most appropriate and functional fluid rotational type of movements conducive for warfare. The stiff British military style developed during the Victorian era perhaps reflected the stiff formality of the time. As an exercise for HEMA I think the Persian and Indian styles are more appropriate. The difference between Persian and north Indian styles is this - With the Persian meels you are training to use a weapon; while with the north Indian jori you are learning to throw and grapple with an opponent. The south Indian karlakattai has a different ethos and is associated with silamban and kalaripayattu. I believe that indian clubs is continuously evolving. Many now incorporate escrima/arnis type of movements like redonda and heaven six, etc.

[@HeroicSport]

right on the money about Meel vs Joris. I think karlakattai has more weapon applications overall. British style club swinging is still fine, lots of great coordination exercises you ca'nt do with heavier clubs. You don't need to be stiff about it though. The like of prof Harrison were proponents of heavy clubs, and none of the model stands in military style. We love fusing styles, alternating back circles are a great exercise but it's like reducing kettlebells to Girevoy sport only.

[@manjitrupbikram]

@@HeroicSport Absolutely.

[@jimbogood]

Which military club exercises have you been looking at? The club exercises found at the end of Archibald Maclaren's 1868 "A Military System of Gymnastic Exercise" weren't really the same thing as the Club Exercise found in Bertram Brown's 1871 "A Practical Guide to Squad and Setting Up Drill". Maclaren intended them to be used as a substitute for soldiers who weren't stationed near a proper gymnasium, until they could get proper equipment; he likely just copied the civilian exercises that were popular. The clubs in the Set Up Drill exercises weren't really swung and were a lot heavier, and seem to have been used mostly as hand weights to make some more challenging versions of the Extension Motion Practises (exercises that prepared for the Extension Motions of the Sword Exercise). The military stance was called "The Position of the Soldier", and was specific to a marching technique called the Prussian Step which was actually closer to the "normal" walk of the time than the previous marching step which was more of a "stomp" (according to Windham's 1759 "A Plan of Discipline Composed for the use of the Militia of the County of Norfolk"). It goes back to (at least) the court of William Frederick I of Prussia, who was clearly insane, but SUPER into military marching technique. He likely pioneered the use of high heels on military footwear for infantry... and also had tall men kidnapped from neighboring countries for his "giant brigade", which like the rest of his Army was never actually used in war. He had some issues. Long story short, if you're specifically trying to do the Set Up Drill exercises of the mid/late 19th C (before Fox's 1889 Physical Drill reforms), then the "military stance" is actually crucial to performing the exercise properly! You're deliberately keeping the legs straight in order to create tension in the torso (long story; actually kind of similar to Ben Hogans Golf swing), and the 45 degree angle of the foot is practised to keep the hip open on the advancing step, which is something people don't really do anymore since we now mostly use a "controlled fall" style of gait. (If you haven't specifically trained for turn-out, though, you probably don't have 45 degrees of it! I've been told 30-35 is nothing to be ashamed of, and will be much kinder to my knees.) However any properly caffeinated 10 year old could likely knock you over when you're in that stance... its was never meant to be a stable fighting or working structure. Basically, with the Set Up Drill, you're doing something very different from what the Indian martial arts were practising, and it's totally specific to both that military marching technique, general civilian walking technique (pre "controlled fall"), and the Sword and Bayonet Exercises of time; it really does need that "military stance". But if you're NOT into the Set Up Drill, and you're doing actual club swinging... then it's probably (as you said) a terrible idea to use the "military stance"!

[@HeroicSport]

Fantastic feedback, while I knew Maclaren and Anderson, I was not aware of Brown's book, which I briefly checked out. You bring very interesting historical points about marching , thanks for broadening our horizon! From memory Anderson went on to teach clubs to upper class clientele. Interestingly, some of the drawings in the old books (like in Prof Harrison's and F. Lemaire) do not display the military stance. While I get why the military stance would have been useful (including as you mention creating tension in the torso, or basically anti rotation), also as part the obligatory discipline for soldiers in the 1800s, for HEMA people (mostly fighting longsword), I believe it is not hugely relevant except if needed to isolate a movement to focus on specific joint mobility. Thanks for the input! Are you an academic or just have a keen passion for military history?

[@madhushekur515]

Buddy very good video vid perfection thats awesome. I am thinking to keep your video in FB and WhatsApp status too....

[@strongbyemma]

Another great video! Awesome Thierry! 💪👍

[@HeroicSport]

Thank you Emma-Lisa!

[@ankitsharma-rq5ej]

Hi, i am from India, i like your videos and i m inspired from them, my question is that can i make my muscles from Indian clubs if yes then please assist me some exercise of Indian clubs.

[@HeroicSport]

Thank you for your feedback. It really depends what you are after... Indian clubs are part of the physical training of kushti wrestlers, but they do all other sort of exercises as well. Best if you can visit your local Akhara. We would never recommend doing Indian clubs exclusively.

[@doumkatekz]

Do you use glass bottles or plastic? I have your pahvandles.

[@HeroicSport]

Plastic. Hmm, we thought it was pretty clear on the website and on the little card you get in the box. Imagine 2 glass bottles hitting each other...