INDIGOCAST #6 | The (D)evolution of Role-Playing w/ NerdSlayer

NerdSlayer ► / nerdslayergaming
Audio-Only Version ► anchor.fm/indi...
Visit my GOG Partner page for curated list of over 100 games ► indigogaming.l...
Tonight we're going to be discussing the decades-long evolution (or devolution) of the role-playing game. How RPGs have lost a lot of the choice, meaningful decisions and freedoms of previous games, and how many other genres have borrowed from RPGs to a point where the label has become almost meaningless.
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[@Indigo_Gaming]

Thanks a bunch to NerdSlayer (kzbin.info) for joining me on this podcast! An audio-only version is available on Spotify, Google, Apple and other platforms: anchor.fm/indigocast Visit my GOG Partner page for curated list of over 100 games ► indigogaming.link/

[@ranekeisenkralle8265]

Not sure why, but the audio sometimes is cutting out for some reason. 1:52:36 for example

[@Caesar_Saladin]

@@ranekeisenkralle8265 ll0l

[@VoidSmoker97]

I feel like a podcast about game series that should’ve continued or games that got cancelled would be interesting

[@Indigo_Gaming]

Thats an interesting idea! I'll add it to the list of potential topics for the future. Thanks!

[@Elgar337]

@@Indigo_Gaming Prime candidate: Fallout. It's a pity that series stopped at Fallout 2.

[@tuckster27]

Dark Sun is another that should of been continued.

[@Indigo_Gaming]

@@tuckster27 Yeah that's a series I really want to cover. Such an interesting setting: Mad Max D&D.

[@VoidSmoker97]

@@tuckster27 yes, Dark Sun Shattered Lands is awesome but could use a lot of quality of life improvements but compared to other games of its time, it plays quite well even today

[@DivinityOfBLaze]

Yeah unfortunately people slap the RPG label on stuff that just has... aspects of an RPG? Like Stats and Attributes? Things that are a PART of RPGs but aren't REQUIRED for an RPG to be one. It's just the easiest way to quantify a characters knowledge and capabilities. It's like any game with vehicles being classified as a Racing game.

[@Indigo_Gaming]

Yeah, that was my whole point bringing up this topic. So many games borrow small elements from RPGs that we now assume that Level Up = RPG. It's a sad state, combined with many games masquerading as role playing games with little meaningful choice (i.e. role playing).

[@DivinityOfBLaze]

@@Indigo_Gaming It's funny that you spoke about the NWN roleplaying scene since I'm part of it, and the NWN2 roleplaying scene (With BGTSCC). Participating in that kind of thing really gives you a sort of... deeper appreciation for what the very CORE of RPG is. To me it isn't just roleplaying as your character but the ability to meaningfully alter the world with your actions. No matter how small that is. Being able to do X thing and see the world react to it in Y way is certainly an aspect of many great RPGs that we've seen from classics to modern. I think genre titles are just descriptive in the WRONG way. Look at movies! They don't have genres that describe how the movie is filmed but the feel its trying to invoke. While with games its focused around mechanics (beyond the Horror genre). Which tends to end up in very, VERY muddy territory.

[@necrolord9908]

I personally miss the days when you could waste an entire hour at the character creation menu in an RPG. The new wave of RPGs consists of nothing more than Action/Adventure hybrids with some rudimentary "roleplay" mechanics thrown in. There are,of course,some notable exceptions out there.

[@apologise2bisons]

U still have those games. Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous is coming out in September and is similar to Baldur's gate 2.

[@markshuttleworth2737]

"The new wave of RPGs consists of nothing more than Action/Adventure hybrids with some rudimentary "roleplay" mechanics" But don't forget that a lot of people really enjoy these kinds of games.

[@totallynuts7595]

@@markshuttleworth2737 And no one denies that, and no one should stop those people from liking those games.

[@pixelcount350]

CDPR to a T.

[@JohnCrawford1979]

That is the awesome thing about Elder Scrolls. I almost always play as Khajiit because so few other games allow for hybrid type characters, giving elves, and dwarves, basically still human-ish, but either tall with pointy ears or short and stout being the major things that make them different from the average human.

[@EJDubbz]

Shadowrun on Genesis was what got me hooked. Of course I played it tabletop as well, so that was the real entry point I guess.

[@baronsengir187]

That game is still soooo good as a rpg.

[@Adrian-cg9rt]

Vampire The Masquerade Bloodlines is still to this day an amazing rpg.

[@CrimRui]

Hell yeah it is. Best vampire game that ever existed.

[@jakobrenner2230]

We can thank the modders for keeping it alive. The Clan Quest Mod is incredible.

[@Elgar337]

Absolutely

[@davedogge2280]

I have to check this game out one day. I hear that the studio that is doing the new one has run into problems but I hope it lives up to the classic original.

[@MadAtreides1]

@@CrimRui I think you mispelled the Legacy of Kain serie

[@jasonjayalap]

Hell yeah a new episode. I'm furiously refreshing my podcast app. I've listened to the past ones 3 times now . You have great guests. Only a 2 hour half-episode? I won't hold that against you... for now..

[@Indigo_Gaming]

NerdSlayer had some writing to do after, so we secured a 2-hour slot. :)

[@dinoblacklane1640]

RPG gets slapped onto everything these days The problem is, there like 6 different genres of RPG and they all get put under the same label

[@LiraeNoir]

And when you hear Indigo calling Diablo a "rpg", you realize the world has been taken over under the reign of eternal September. Where's the roleplay in that game? What would Diablo have in common with a real tabletop rpg, beside superficial unnecessary commonalities likes stats and inventory?

[@totallynuts7595]

@@LiraeNoir The real issue is how you define rpg since the very loose definition is "a game in which you play a role, a character" (so most games...) or the very old definition "a computer version of tabletop rpgs". The thing is that ALL Genres have this issue to the same extent, since features are merged and morphed and transition from a genre to another. Metroidvanias, Survival Games, Shooters... Like all three of them could have progression trees, all three could have collectable weapons, all three could be first person... The lines are blurry so genres are very loosly defined. Guacamelee is a sidescroller platformer beatemup with collectable upgrades, but very linear, so it looks like a metroidvania, but you don't really explore the map at your own pace, you have only one path to go through. Hollow Knight is 75% Metroid and 25% Dark Souls. Dark Souls has a ton of exploration, but you don't really call it a Metroidvania... The lines are really blurry now and gatekeeping the terms will only lead to stagnation in the genres.

[@LiraeNoir]

@@totallynuts7595 Yes genre move on, and yes rpg is more of a spectrum than anything. But "game where you play a role" is worthless as a definition. Because Mario fits, Civilization fits, hell Flight Simulator fits. The lines are blurry, but from someone with game experience and education, I don't think that blur goes to cover Diablo. There's nothing in here but superficial resemblance with rpg. If one calls Diablo an rpg, one should call Skyrim a fps: it's first person and you shoot things.

[@JohnCrawford1979]

@@LiraeNoir - Diablo is like a tabletop game because you are moving your game piece upon the board, and then you interact with the characters, either with talking to them or fighting them.

[@JohnCrawford1979]

@@LiraeNoir - Skyrim is a FPS, in fact all Elder Scrolls games are FPS, as the original was built to be a game where characters fight in an arena, hence why the first Elder Scrolls game is called Arena. It was practically a Doom clone.

[@hshocker98]

Kingdom Come: Deliverance is still good tho

[@Indigo_Gaming]

Yeah there are definitely bright spots in the last few years, the Divinity series, KC:D, Wasteland 3, etc.

[@CruelDwarf]

I think it is not a coincidence that downfall of MMORPGs as a some sort of social experience when you talk with people, meet new people and so on happened alongside with rise of social media. I think social media killed the social aspect of MMOs.

[@Indigo_Gaming]

It's an interesting parallel that I'd like to see a thorough study about, for sure.

[@CruelDwarf]

@@Indigo_Gaming I'm not aware of such studies but this idea aligns with my own experience as a began to play MMORPGs in early 2000s and witnessed how it is degraded from a social experience to purely utilitarian approach to other players. I remember how I was literally setting up dates with my girlfriend in Lineage 2 and it was not really that unusual. I doubt many people do something like that nowadays.

[@Golemoid]

Interesting observation, but i think that’s just a coincidence.

[@puskas_baller]

my friend and i discussed this recently having played the NW beta, and not really making many friends or finding a guild, although we were playing long days w voice on etc. then i joined a NW discord from my server. suddenly i have groups whenever i want and im an integral part of a guild. made a bunch of friends. what it made me realise is that services like discord remove so much of the social aspects of mmorpgs. when we were 15 we would simply play an mmorpg and through playing you would wind up inside a close knit group of friends or guild ALL INSIDE of the game. these days so much of that happens outside of the game edit: its not just this thought. every decade we become more insular as a society. when I grew up (27 now) we roamed and made friends with all the kids on our streets and nearby. we were always family friends with our neighbor's and would share barbecue's in summer etc. where i am from these things are less and less common. sense of community is diminished yearly as these basic human needs become more and more commodified. i have no doubt the decline in social kills/heightened levels of things like social anxiety are due to our technological evolution and they probably do have an impact on mmorpg's todays. people are different to how they were 20 years ago, its just how it is.

[@UtushoReiuji]

GURPS has a good foundation for doing a system comparable to Arcanum, where there's an option for an environmental level of mana that determines how effective mages can be. In my own stuff, I would have technologically developed areas just deplete the ambient mana so that it'd be less effective, and in areas with potent mana, I'd add an increased chance of a technological gadget or weapon malfunctioning. It worked pretty smoothly for what I was doing at the time, and it kept the party dynamic a bit balanced on both ends where magic and tech-centric characters would understand their strengths and weaknesses.

[@ThePiachu]

Speaking of role playing games where some people are like law enforcers and coral rowdy players - Space Station 13 Colonial Marines kind of does that. It's a medium-RP server (aka - "act like a somewhat believable person according to your role and do your job") and some players can take on the role of Military Police to enforce some of the server rules for appropriate behaviour. A knucklehead being rowdy can get arrested for a bit. It and some other SS13 servers do generally have a sizeable population of active roleplaying players, at least in terms of niche indie games. But yeah, it's probably due to the game being pretty hard to get into and a healthy community of moderators doing some hard work keeping everyone behaving nicely.

[@mikewill2667]

Bruh i downloaded cyberpunk part 1&2 I literally listen to them everywhere i go and i cant wait for part 3!

[@Indigo_Gaming]

Working every day on it. Should be out in the next couple of months, hopefully! Longest video yet.

[@BigHappyMonkey]

Great content, thanks for this discussion. I think it's ironic how some will point fingers at racism in video games, while murder and thievery for example are easy to ignore. I think there should be consequences to decisions to being racist, just as they should be consequences for murder and stealing. Removing something just because it's controversial is a cop-out imho, playing it too safe. Obviously racism and murder and thievery is no way to live irl, but video games are supposed to be full of choice. Once we lose freedom of choice in video games, we lose something unique to this media imho. On a different topic, I think games could be serving society in a greater capacity in a way that teaches us a better way to think. Most modern games already teach us how to follow and encourages quick rewards with no or little effort. I think that RPG's could do could really well is encourage us is how to think critically, by creating a world that doesn't hold our hand and tell us everything without the requirement of research and thinking logically. Making it so the player is constantly frustrated and stuck is not an easy thing to balance, but encouraging players to think for themselves and rely on the logic of their game world is something many have forgotten is a staple in good roleplaying imho. I think more people are hungry for that sort of game than they realize.

[@Indigo_Gaming]

I think an important thing to note as well, is that including things like bigotry in art & entertainment does NOT mean you endorse it. It's silly to bring this up, but some people get offended despite a work CRITICIZING something, rather than promoting it.

[@BigHappyMonkey]

@@Indigo_Gaming Absolutely right, couldn't have said it better myself. Harming your audience by showing that immorality and unethical behavior like bigotry is rewarded in the END is not the way to do it right haha rather the opposite. Thanks for the reply btw. I love your content, it's vey informative and enlightening for me.

[@JohnCrawford1979]

I used to RP in Second Life on an old, now long gone sim called Midian City. It was post-apocalyptic, mix of cyberpunk and urban fantasy. I played as a Catwalker, which was a group of feline hybrids A.K.A. nekos. The initial idea was that the MPD had made it illegal for the Catwalkers to be on the streets, so they took to the rooftops as turf. It made sense because the way to the rooftops, and to get to the Catwalker Den, you had to go through a maze of catwalks and ledges of buildings. It worked out great until new players that didn't understand the backstory would complain about getting messed with on the rooftops, even though there are many signs that say to beware of going onto the catwalks. Or, later, some of the power players suddenly decided that they wanted to use their rooftops, and started rooftop wars, both IC and OOC. So, the drama messed up what was an interesting part of the story of the city because people lost the plot. In a sense, that seems to be the issue now because of the whole 'woke' that wants to cleanse out what they consider problematic about the games. Yet, if games didn't have those things, not only would the games be boring, but these people wouldn't have their niche to complain about. Some companies are starting to wake up from the 'woke', realizing that they are losing money because their games that made them successful back when they were edgy are not selling now that they are purified of the various elements that the woke crowd don't like, but is essential to have a the right amount of conflict. Or, the conflict is demonizing the fans and gaslighting them, and thus turning people off from the games. When you turn on your fan base, that is essentially business suicide. Not that one shouldn't try different stories, but it the stories turn against the players, that is a way to lose players.

[@TheAutistWhisperer]

I just find most modern RPGs to not be, well, RPGs or the label just gets slapped onto games that aren't RPGs.

[@Indigo_Gaming]

It's an incredibly loose label nowadays, hence why I wanted to talk about the topic.

[@TheAutistWhisperer]

@@Indigo_Gaming Yeah it's been diluted to the point it means nothing. I haven't finished it yet but the discussion between you and NerdSlayer has been good.

[@RougeMephilesClone]

I'm interested to hear more about the argument for why The Witcher 3 is either bad or disappointing, because I've heard people who I trust to like good stories describe W3 as having a great branching narrative. Could it be said that it's the best "illusion of choice RPG" ever made? If it really is limited in which decisions truly matter, it does a sublime job at hiding them, much better than games like Telltale and Quantic Dream's catalogues.

[@Indigo_Gaming]

Personally, I think The Witcher has incredibly small story vignettes, but overall you can't really shift the narrative beyond a couple alternative dialogue lines. I think that's the main thing people criticize.

[@MelodiesForTheSoul]

"I skipped my uncles wedding to play Diablo 2 on launch." Bruh.

[@baronsengir187]

That is why i support baldurs gate 3 and kingmaker 2.

[@scott96999]

Really digging these casts. Keep it up brother!

[@mkahvi]

Hexen 2 had RPG elements, it had leveling in the JRPG style. There's bunch of really old shooters and action games that mixed in RPG elements.

[@Vikk1]

Disco Elysium is one of the best at the moment

[@jmiquelmb]

i finished Disco Elysium yesterday, and I really liked it. The writing is top notch, both around themes and style. Haven't found anything that comes close in both quantity and quality. But I think the role-playing experience could be improved a little. While it's not s linear experience, and you have opportunity to express yourself through choices, I felt a bit disappointed that the ending was so similar regardless of your path and how you build your character. Still, a great game that has pushed the genre. I hope the studio can deliver their promise for their next game, since they claim they wish to make a jump on the level of Baldur's Gate and Bardur's Gate 2

[@PaulBaumer_Z]

Well, you know, that's like your opinion, man

[@Vikk1]

@@PaulBaumer_Z you're being very undude

[@PaulBaumer_Z]

@@Vikk1 , the Dude abides 🙂

[@Vikk1]

@@PaulBaumer_Z The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that.

[@kristianbennedbk922]

Great pc, guys! Always love your work, Ian. Looking forward to the conclusion of cyberpunk. I am actually playing Shadowrun Returns now, and while that game is simplified somewhat, I quite dig the overall look - and there is no map and you really feel like exploring these little parts of the city. I kept searching for the map - but you don't really need one... and there is still a compass/questarrow - apropos what you two talked about in the podcast. Keep up the good work. Love these podcasts with a specific topic.

[@Indigo_Gaming]

I'm a big fan of the new Shadowrun games, and will likely cover them at some point. I found the writing to be well above the standard of many other games (probably due to them being classic TRPG veterans), and the amount of choices and playstyles available is impressive.

[@kristianbennedbk922]

@@Indigo_Gaming cool - I love that you covered Blood and Magic as well on your other Channel. A friend and I played that game when it first came out… but it never got much attention since, sadly 🥴

[@Grandmastergav86]

If there's one game I wish had gone full RPG, it's Red Dead 2

[@szethtoxicco1710]

I'd love for a game in the Mafia series to go full RPG. Being able to choose which family to work for, being able to turn informant, climbing the ranks and playing internal politics in the Mafia etc etc.

[@Grandmastergav86]

@@szethtoxicco1710 Good shout.

[@DaDoubleDee]

@@szethtoxicco1710 that'd be sick, get a good world design in there as well and you'd have a winner !!!

[@fabriciolima2712]

I personally think that game design in red dead 2 is bad as fuck, I wish they didn't do all the missions linear, stealth doesn't work

[@martyfromnebraska1045]

RDR2's world with RPG mechanics would be cool, but RDR2 is elevated by its story which would be much more difficult to tell if it wasn't on rails.

[@pedrohenriquesoutogueiros1449]

So great seeing indigo grow ♡

[@JohnCrawford1979]

The original Zelda on the NES did not have the ability pick up and throw objects. You had a candle, but it would not burn a tree unless there was a hidden passageway. Same with bombs, which were a double-edged sword, because if Link remains in the range for the bomb, he could get injured as well. The candle did the same, so you learned not to run into fire or bombs, unless you are that sadistic person that wants to see Link injured or dead. In the first SNES Zelda: A Link to the Past, that's when you could pick up objects or slash certain shrubs. You had the guards that would go after you if they see you, but they already were after you for escaping from the dungeon. However, Elder Scrolls did have guards in the city that you could talk to, but would also send you to jail if you are caught stealing. you could try to fight them, but if you don't defeat them, you are taken to jail, so it's better to just retreat from the city.

[@MG-ou4qd]

Currently playing Divinity 2... Greedfall was good, too

[@Indigo_Gaming]

@Leanja I'm glad Spiders is getting over their jank-factor. I look forward to see them continue to improve!

[@TheAutistWhisperer]

@Leanja Yeah I enjoyed it as well but it did have issues which I hope they rectify in future games.

[@imma5269]

Glad to see you back bro

[@Elora445]

Speaking of Mass Effect and Dragon Age, I've really enjoyed Big Dan Gaming's videos about both games series. He plays through many decisions and discusses what results those decisions get and why. I'm so glad. I can't, just can't, play a jerk character; I have to play my goody two-shoes person. So I will never get to see some of those scenes. But seeing a video of them is great - playing through them I would feel lousy, but watching them is all right. I love old!BioWare games - they were great and seldom did everyone choose the exact same way of playing them. It's so sad to see how all their game series have developed.

[@RagingRugbyst]

Everytime I get the option to kick that eclipse mercenary through the window, I go full Leonidas on his ass, even on a max Paragon run. It's just too histerical not to do.

[@Elora445]

@@RagingRugbyst Yeah, there are some scenes where even I, a real goody-two-shoes just have to choose the Renegade option. The Cerberus guy with an autistic brother, for example. Nowadays, after my own diagnosis with ASD, there are even more reasons to hate that guy. I usually play a full Paragon, but some particular scenes you just have to go with the Renegade option.

[@MidlifeCrisisJoe]

Defining an RPG is definitely tough since the advancement of technology allowed for more hybridization. If I had to peg it at a small number of key elements I'd say it's 3 core things: 1) Meaningful choices that preclude all content from being seen in one go. This can be either with the mechanics or narrative, but without making choices that cut off some content in favor of that which is chosen, then the core of the RPG experience that *is* player choice has no impact. 2) Variety of pace and tone. Generally, most other games that I would say aren't RPGs even if they have a bunch of old school RPG mechanics at this point are lacking in one thing - either a varied pace or a varied amount of emotional tone. An action game might have lulls and highs in its pace, but neither will be too long - an RPG might very well slow things down for an extended period to delve into something. Similarly, a horror game will jump between tension, terror, and relief, but it's probably not going to have an aside for a quirky romance and then another for a political drama and then another for a wholesome family moment. It's really in the space of the RPG to provide this large amount of variety in pace and tone in order to create a strong sense of verisimilitude of the world and characters it presents. 3) Character growth over time. This is the element most borrowed by other games to the point that it's pretty much everywhere, but it's still important to note - in an RPG your characters grow and change over the course of the game and aren't fundamentally static. Usually this is just stat improvements but it also relates to narrative character growth as well, potentially.

[@ChairmanKam]

17:00 May I introduce you to our lord and savior Quest for Glory?

[@Indigo_Gaming]

Oh man, I need to play those games again. I dug one of the later games where they had everybody in town speak Greek! I'm a quarter Peloponnesian, so it was nice to hear that in a game.

[@ChairmanKam]

@@Indigo_Gaming John Rhys Davies narrated Shadows of Darkness. As a Russian that game triggers the same reaction in me.

[@Jodah175]

that moment when you realize some people on youtube know how to properly adjust their volume levels, and you came from a video where they didn't. At some point my ears will stop ringing. 🤣🤣

[@Chuubii]

indigo is a lot louder than nerdslayer

[@Indigo_Gaming]

I raise his volume at one point in the podcast.

[@Chuubii]

@@Indigo_Gaming I saw. I was too hasty with the comment :)

[@AbtinX]

Here's another Diablo 2 story; friend moves out, gets employed and a girlfriend. Gets Diablo 2, loses job, loses girlfriend then loses apartment. Now that's dedication!

[@zaratustra00]

please please try to align volumes so we can listen this while falling asleep :-)

[@Elgar337]

I'm not in favor of developing AI too much. I watched a Dota bot demolish pro players 1v1. They put it in a map and left it to learn by itself and it started by not moving, then moving ahead and dying to creeps, then eventually it had learned even the cancel attack animation and bluffed players and made skillshots. Scared the shit out of me. Advanced AI will lead to actual Skynet killing us all.

[@ReaLMoisan]

Yeah, this guy saying A.I. is so limited and rudimentary has never seen something like OpenAI Five in action. That AI program is 5 years old now, but it dominated Pro World Champion teams. Buy 2019, the AI had accumulated 10,000 years of Dota 2 gameplay experience. These self learning AI programs, like AlphaZero prove how far AI has progressed already. Yes, it's a little concerning how well AI can learn by itself already.

[@thereseemstobeenanerror1219]

Both of you calm down over this Skynet stuff it's likely that Ai wouldn't go down the Skynet path.

[@artifica0]

I wish Efap talked more on stuff like this

[@Indigo_Gaming]

Yeah they're primarily focused on movie/show content at the moment, but occasionally they dip into vidya. I was on their 11-hour Resident Evil 8 stream.

[@blazefa.]

Agreed, I’m a whole lot more interested in games than movies, which is a shame because rags and fringy used to make exclusively gaming videos

[@MaakaSakuranbo]

I'm not aware of htem having to lower amount of players in XIV? There was always a playercap. Not sure even "channels" would help that, as they mentioned that the main reason fro the cap per datacenter (which is then split across worlds) is the matching server, which afaik handles all the cross-world stuff (getting people together in a party via dungeonfinder etc)

[@TrouvatkiDePercusion]

Probably beating a dead horse, but is there any approximate projection on the release of Part 3 of the "Cyberpunk" series?

[@Indigo_Gaming]

Yes, I get asked about every day. Editing as we speak. Estimated release is looking like late October/November.

[@TrouvatkiDePercusion]

Hurray!!!

[@martyfromnebraska1045]

The only coherent definition of an RPG is a game that is built around table top roleplaying mechanics. Any other definition is so broad that it results in absurd games becoming RPGs. You get into hybrid genres which introduces a lot of confusion as well.

[@spinakker14]

27:30 "actual role playing is rare" - Disco Elysium! I don't know if you've mentioned it, because I haven't finished the podcast, but this is what instantly sprung to my mind. I too feel that developers don't really make actual rpg-s anymore. I guess it comes down to partly what you mentioned about the paranoia that players wouldn't see everything they worked on; partly because it's simply too much effort; and partly to something that relates to the paranoia: a sense of control that they want to ensure you experience the exact story they come up with and you experience the exact emotions they designed the story to evoke. Disco Elysium does none of that. There are many branching options that you require an RPG to have, and there's actual role playing: you can play as a kind hearted, somewhat psychic guy or as a fascist asshole. And as a bonus: your skills determine what you can do and how the game treats you. If you're low on strength, you have to talk your way out of things, but on the other hand new options appear that you wouldn't see if you were a musclehead. Or there's a skill that's basically knowledge about drugs, and if it's high enough, your mind will not only be able to sniff out whether someone else is high and what kind of chemical they're on, but it will also constantly try to persuade you to take drugs. The whole game is so fun and refreshing

[@clapointe151]

They did mention it at the very beginning. Probably before the 15 min mark actually

[@catriona_drummond]

If I turn up the volume so I can finally understand Nerdslayer, my ears explode when Indigo starts talking. constantly adjuting the volume or not understanding half of the conversation is not my idea of a podcast. sorry, guys. I love the topic but I can't make it through this.

[@Indigo_Gaming]

It's difficult to do this all on my own, live. I'm still trying to perfect my livestreaming setup, and of course with every new guest comes its own challenges. I cleaned up the audio in the audio only version you can find on Spotify, Google and Apple, with more balanced audio.

[@BubblegumCrash332]

I'm here thinking damn the Nerdslayers voice sounds like the guy from Death of a game series.......... Oh 🙄🙄🙄

[@Indigo_Gaming]

Oh you must be thinking of _GeekDefeater_ and his series, "Demise of a Franchise". XD

[@joelmilten]

Amazing. I loled at this!

[@ashk_155.-caius9]

Will you came back?

[@NotEnoughSound]

pardon me, but god f*k damn it! missed the live stream due to work

[@Indigo_Gaming]

It was an odd time, at least the VOD is still here!

[@NotEnoughSound]

@@Indigo_Gaming Your time was fine, I'll be sure to catch the next one!

[@jakejutras5420]

Wait... NS said you can flat out ignore the people around you in FF14. Has he actually played the game further than 15 levels? Even in the "Main Story Quest" you are forced to group and cooperate with other players. On top of that there are countless incentives to get involved in an FC (guild) or to party up.

[@Grandmastergav86]

Maybe he likes the structure of an MMO but isn't inclined to socially interact with randos. That makes him spiritually British. I like co-op games but there is nothing more off-putting than people taking it too seriously or indulging in constant small talk when you create a public game.

[@jakejutras5420]

@@Grandmastergav86 that is a possibility for sure, the problem however is him stating that you can remain entirely antisocial while playing FF14. You absolutely can't do that though, the game forces you to play with others. Edit: the spiritually British comment made me chuckle good :)

[@Elora445]

@@jakejutras5420 Yep. I wish you could, but alas, I'm forced to run some dungeons and trials even though I really don't want to (autist, my brain gets dangerously close to a meltdown). It's still a good thing to do in the game - just not good for me. Still love the game though.

[@MisterA744]

"True" RPGs seem to be closer to the tabletop DnD type games. I don't think I've ever experienced one myself (I hear Daggerfall is a great example of this being translated over to video games. And Baldur's Gate seems to get similar praise. But I have no idea how accurate those comments are.), but if we're mapping out a spectrum, then the closer to greater variety of choice in role, class, appearance, backstory, openness to project a character onto your avatar, actions and the consequences thereof, the more near to the "true RPG" experience we are. Railroading is a necessity to some degree (e.g. the setting, main plot, finite amount of options to give the player, finite amount of variables to input into a game, etc.), but that doesn't mean it needs to be obvious, ugly, crude, lame, or otherwise at the expense of the player's verisimilitude and fun. We don't like feeling cheated, so brute-forced solutions to our "meddling" role-playing sucks the fun and immersion out of our actions and accomplishments (e.g. Don't design the game so I can kill / "kill" (Or can't because he's inexplicably invincible here.) the Big Bad before the end if he's not supposed to die until then. Just don't give me the choice in that instance.). Making the rails invisible means facilitating change for the player's actions that don't conflict with what they know about (e.g. Oh, you killed X? No problem! Here's Y to take their place! (As in the quest's goal has now changed - or ended (Not "FAILED".) and started a new questline - because you killed X.).). * Also, I don't know if he'd be interested / available, but I think it'd be cool for you to do an episode with Shamus Young on topics like this, or something more narrow / specific, like the Mass Effect series. If you've got the time and interest, I wholeheartedly recommend his retrospective on those games. They're really incisive and interesting reads.

[@Indigo_Gaming]

I haven't seen Shamus's content to spoken to him, but anything's possible!

[@MisterA744]

​@@Indigo_Gaming He also has a KZbin channel, and has uploaded a decent number of analytical videos on video games. Although if you've already searched his name, you probably already knew that. Glad you're open to the idea. I think you two would have really interesting conversations about games. And if you're interested in getting pieces of his thoughts while doing other things, he also runs a podcast called "The Diecast", which you can download for free on his website.

[@JohnCrawford1979]

I don't really see how the 3D open worlds can be all that similar to the table tops because there's free movement, no rolling of dice, nor do you wait your turn to be able to do something. Ok, some older 3D RPGs had that, but we're talking more like WOW, Perfect World, and FFXI, and yet there only in that your strikes are turn based (You target enemy, you attack enemy, enemy attacks you, etc.). For the most part, especially after DOOM, virtually all 3D RPGs went with the real time attacks. The most recent example of a 3D RPG that has a tabletop feel is Might and Magic X, which currently has a Metacritic rating of 70%, for what that's worth. Also, there were some issues that may have been fixed by making the DLC content free, but for a while people felt screwed by Ubisoft, imagine that! 😏

[@RockSolitude]

Waiting on that Cyberpunk Part 3

[@MD-yd8lh]

good podcats

[@mantasplah7791]

I dont know if this counts but I played alot of dungeon siege 2 when I was a kid

[@unknownstranger6558]

eve online kinda role play, and lineage 2( but at same time many hours of grind, etc. )

[@one8576]

What I always wondered about these hardcore players who complain about all the new MMOs sucking is why they never play MUDs or kept alive servers of Ultima Online? For MUDs they still exist the same as they ever had.

[@ciCCapROSTi]

That note about RPGs and decks of cards and amount of choice is sorely lacking in math. A deck of cards can be sorted in 52! ways (when shuffling, the regularities will cause the deck to take up the same order a lot of the times). Choices in an RPG get you multipliers. You start with 1, and you always multiply the running number by the amount of choices you got. So if you have 52 choices during the game, all with 4 outcomes and they all have their unique consequences, that means you have 4^52 paths, which is unfathomably lower than 52!. Of course, games like Kingmaker have a thousand or ten thousand or millions of choices in character creation (most of them are shit, though), but that's still just bringing it closer with a couple orders of magnitudes.

[@Indigo_Gaming]

I don't pretend to be a mathematician, but this article explains the concept in detail: www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/did-you-know-infographics/there-are-more-ways-arrange-deck-cards-there-are-atoms-earth

[@MrHousecup]

When will we see Cyberpunk History 3? 😃

[@Indigo_Gaming]

It's about 60% through editing. In the next few months, cybergods willing!

[@MrHousecup]

@@Indigo_Gaming That's wonderful news! Thank you for answering my question! I'm sure it's going to be awesome just like the other two!

[@611fk]

Just call some of the so called "RPGs" Character Builders. CB elements include: Stats, levels, skill etc. RPG elements include: interractive dialogue, story based player agency, reputation, morality etc. Not all things need bars. Examples of games I consider to be CBs: Diablo(and clones), most dungeon crawlers, lootershooters etc.

[@BravelyBasic]

Wait? Episode 6? Where is episode 5?

[@Indigo_Gaming]

It was a more casual "After Hours" episode I streamed on my 2nd channel. Should be on the playlist, though.

[@banks3388]

Play Underrail

[@one8576]

In Fallout 1 for example, the only way your decisions affect the game world is through different ending screens. There is reputation but you can raise it easily, even after doing the three "evil" choices (shooting the sheriff in gambling town, helping the Hub gangster and siding with the slave city over the gang), you will still end up with +30 reputation by the end of it. The only thing it prevents is exterminating a town with no consequences. Given that it is the founder of true-role-playing games.

[@dejanzabaljac6950]

I also think it's overstimulation. Look at all those colors shapes and other stuff. Story like always is bull manuer but everything else needs to be flashy,not leaving room for your imagination,to create your own version of world or gameplay. Also there is not enough mistery in RPG and other genres, we easily get bored because everything is handed to as on the platter and then some of us cry because sometimes games are hard but thats the point,its not point and click games it's RPG. We are downgrading for sure,but where and how i am not sure...

[@JohnCrawford1979]

Grinding got replaces with auto grind, meaning you don't even have to be there, nor make decisions on how to fight, so you don't really learn, nor have much strategy, other than maybe looking at stats, and knowing what characters are better to have on the front line, and who in the back for optimal success. It's almost more like fantasy football, or some other management game, rather than an actual RPG where you explore a world and progressively grow in experience as you advance in the world.

[@KnjazNazrath]

NS is like half IG's volume. Makes for an awkward listen.

[@catzor4795]

Nothing beats boomer RPGs especially Morrowind and Baldur's Gate.

[@nicholsonfile]

I'm nearly certain they were made largely by Gen X. But I'm sure you were being facetious with your word usage.

[@UberMun]

Daggerfall.

[@Grandmastergav86]

Aka the Golden Era.

[@preppen78]

Depends on whether Disco Elysium falls under boomer RPG or not. ...and Elder Scrolls is overrated - generic blandness.

[@MrFr2eman]

@@preppen78 Can you say the same about Morrowind though? When it comes to both gameplay and the world, it's quite unique. Gameplay-wise it's hard to think of another 3D RPG game that allows you as much freedom on that scale. And not many fantasy worlds are full of strange creatures like Silt Striders or cities like Vivec and Sadrith Mora.

[@thesourceprototype]

Wtf, they have a face.

[@Indigo_Gaming]

NerdSlayer and I have streamed for years on our other channels. Haha.

[@10011110011]

Im sure those are payed actors

[@Indigo_Gaming]

@@10011110011 The truth is out there!

[@CrimRui]

The true RPG in games is without a doubt a game like Fallout 1 and 2, I agree. The choices and the atmoshere that game gives is like no other. You could go into town and kill everyone, even the kids. There is nothing like it now.

[@JohnCrawford1979]

The NPCs going crazy over the most banal items, ready to start WWIII does sound like the 'woke' crowd that make people wonder if they are crazy AI NPCs. 😏

[@JohnCrawford1979]

AI isn't capable of basic, casual conversation, yet. You have to use a lot of Socratic "if... then" statements, and even there, as noted in Elder Scrolls, you just get a lot of repeat dialogue because they can't compute, or learn conversation on the fly, like we can do as humans. That shows how amazing our more organic, real life mind is, because we can think outside the dialogue box, and our way of learning how to speak and carry on conversations that a computer has trouble with and needs a huge amount of computational processes to do basic conversation.

[@gamingtonight1526]

They've not devolved, it's just that many games are now called RPGs when they're not. For example, Diablo is a hack'n'slash RPG, NOT an Action-RPG!!!

[@Indigo_Gaming]

My point was that the expectation of RPGs nowadays is that they borrow those "action-RPG" elements while posing as a game with meaningful choices.

[@Grandmastergav86]

When titles that flagrantly shouldn't be quantified as RPGs are being treated as such, then they have.

[@jakejutras5420]

"You don't need a hundred players running around the city" (referring to FF14) This is so far off base IMO man, the community aspect and just chatting/hanging out is a HUGE aspect of what makes FF14 appealing in the first place. The main Producer himself even thinks so and put out a PSA talking about that after they implemented the player limit and half hour logout timer.

[@baronsengir187]

My favorite thing in XV was collecting recipes

[@jakejutras5420]

@@baronsengir187 Exactly! And I'm sure you enjoyed sharing your cooking with your in game friends or fellow FC members right? Edit: oh did you mean in 15 or 14?

[@baronsengir187]

@@jakejutras5420 15. Did not play the MMORPG. We tried to replicate those dishes at home a lot 😄 Though we weren't very good at it

[@Indigo_Gaming]

@SengirShowsU I hear Behemoth Cup Noodle is hard to come by IRL.

[@jakejutras5420]

@@baronsengir187 hahah that's awesome :)

[@danieladamczyk4024]

But RPG in video games never existed, role playing in games that poeple call "rpg" is limited to creating more specific unit in the combat grup. The rest is following the script, there isn't other choice. The closed thing to real RPG are games in kin of Kenshi, unscripted games without main goal. Becouse best rpg story isn't writen, is has to be maded.

[@Lillfot]

Wow, this is the first time I really disagree with Indigo. Granted, I'm only 19 minutes in, but still.. I heartily disagree with the strict definition you have for an RPG, and it especially frustrates me that Mass Effect, "three color ending where none of your choices matter" is classed as an RPG by you two at the start. RPG classification is simple: Are you playing a role? Yes/No. If Yes, then it's an RPG. Everything else is a bingo sheet of tropes.

[@Indigo_Gaming]

"Are you playing a role", well that describes just about every game ever made. That's why I try to describe what I believe encapsulates a "true RPG" as opposed to the hybridized games that borrow some but not all the elements of an RPG.

[@dinoblacklane1640]

The problem is, you play a role in like 90% of games In a racing game you are playing the role of a racer for instance

[@Lillfot]

Absolutely, it's a highly ridiculous concept that I proposed, but I think it highlights the problem. You're almost always playing a role. :) This feels like a problem without a solution and I think that the discussion is more the point than the conclusions we make. We all have different thoughts and opinions on what makes an RPG and that has to stand for us when we decide on whether a game we intend on playing is going to scratch our RPG itch or not.

[@lirpa5]

Surprised Indigo Gaming didn't make another video shilling Cyberpunk 2077 and simping for CD Projekt Red. Embarrassing.

[@Indigo_Gaming]

When have I simped for Cyberpunk 2077? I was nice to one of the level designers when he commented on my video, but I've called out their bugs and issues. I haven't even mentioned the game *once* in my documentary about the cyberpunk genre.

[@alalalal5952]

You dont get what RPG game means, you both. From there u dont get what RPG Videogame is. Or u just trolling normis here. Since when rpg is judged in the wat: ah for normis is battle and action (like dead or alive), whem rpg has more..stuff? Due life of another being is less or more for the perspectives of someone? There no loose in RPG, is story forged alive, people die each day and people remember ideas of other who dead centurys ago. jesus do u played a role in game for a time?

[@SuperZergMan]

I'm guessing english isn't your first language.

[@Indigo_Gaming]

@@AbcIHateYou3 The Dark Souls of KZbin comments...

[@DJWeapon8]

For me, an RPG needs to have: Dialogue Choices Builds And Consequences for those above three. How Good of an RPG it is depends on how extensive and in depth these 4 are. Like the bottom of the barrel, technically speaking, barely meeting the metric RPG has ONE instance where there are two dialogue choices, ONE instance of choosing one of two approaches to a situation, ONE instance of choosing one of two builds/equipment sets to go with, and ALL OF THOSE THREE mechanics have a different consequence depending on what you chose. It'll suck donkey balls as an RPG. But its an RPG nonetheless.