IndyCar Just Changed FOREVER

/ davidland
This morning, the NTT IndyCar Series teams and Penske Entertainment ratified the series first charter agreement. As expected, 25 cars will have guaranteed spots at every race but the Indianapolis 500. Let's talk about this new deal, as well as some of the potential consequences that the charters will bring.
RACER article cited - racer.com/2024...
#IndyCar #Indy500 #Rahal
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[@paddyohenry6428]

"Penske Entertainment", sounds like the WWE. It's a show, not a sporting event.

[@wyy7274]

PE problem? 😂

[@ILSRWY4]

Its ALL about Penske... always has always will be. The guy has more money to do with, won more championships in all series.. and yet he's not satisfied... he's not happy unless... he takes more and more away from others...

[@karendarrenmclaren]

Racing it's business. Business always murders sport

[@black_sheep2520]

It's a shame Indy Lights became Indy NXT.

[@rogerpenske2411]

Well, Dave has a habit of calling a race a “product”

[@V10ViperSRT]

All we wanted was a new chassis and new engine with more than 6 cylinders

[@IanTheMotorsportsMan_YT]

We want more chassis and engine competitions

[@d.d.7287]

I'm fine with the v6's

[@Andre_The_Millennial]

@@d.d.7287 Me too. Maybe raise the rev limit a bit.

[@McLMP4-22]

2.4 Litre V8 Turbos (no hybrids), multiple chassis manufacturers (Dallara, Lola, Oreca, etc. No spec series, there should be a development race) multiple engine manufacturers (Honda, Chevrolet, and the return of Ford, Toyota, and Mercedes-Benz). Imagine if IndyCar racing looked like this. Oh wait, that’s what it used to be…

[@danielhenderson8316]

I want companies that want to make that happen, but I also wanted to be an astronaut when I grew up. The best we can expect is another aerokit fight, and downforce is the last thing we need more of.

[@Ultimate23Dragon]

Stop 👏 trying 👏 to 👏 be 👏 NASCAR!!!!!

[@karendarrenmclaren]

Stop trying to make money? Yeah. You wish

[@Ryzard]

​@@karendarrenmclaren the issue with Indycar is that they SUCK at money grabbing. If they just made a decent series, the money would come. But with shit decisions, it decreases the pay - NASCAR is suffering in the same way rn, to a lesser extent in the last couple years though

[@karendarrenmclaren]

@@Ryzard it's not because they can't make money. It's because inflation eating up everything they can achieve. Plus shareholders demand returns. It used to cost a can of beans to run a race. Today, without a billion in your pockets, you can at best race yourself from cops ticket. Also, major series grabbed all attention and other forms of Motorsport can't even make it on the basics. It cost a fortune to run a raceway. Etc. Problem isn't the money. No one would give Roger few billions to buy failed venture.

[@tylerensminger]

At least Indianapolis wasn't affected. Really don't like the car count cap limit.

[@jacobaxton6353]

I mean really the car count limit was already there for some tracks. 27 is the maximum for mid ohio and toronto just because you can't get any more pit stalls

[@tylerensminger]

@@jacobaxton6353 I get that. I know not every track can accommodate more than 27 cars. Though many others can

[@black_sheep2520]

I don't like the car count limit either. It should be smaller like 25 to decrease competition for sponsorship, especially during tough times. They need a performance requirement to weed out unqualified drivers like Kyffin Simpson and Sting Ray Robb.

[@tylerensminger]

@@black_sheep2520 I get it although I do agree with David about the "minnows" potentially not wanting to come. I remember Front Row Motorsports started out as a minnow but now they are a decent Nascar team. In terms of unqualified drivers, I can definitely echo that but "pay" drivers will always be around

[@ILSRWY4]

@@black_sheep2520 you forgot Nolan Siegel...

[@codileger4876]

Indycar won’t spend 3 million on marketing much less another 3 Leaders Circle checks

[@naparacingfan9275]

IndyCar charters are sponsored by the Thermal Club.

[@michaeljacobs2954]

You are so right David in your final comments "They are happy with it until they are unhappy with it". I predict the next time a driver from a major team gets bumped at Indy, they'll change it to chattered entries locked in and the bumping will be among the uncharted. You would still need at least 34 cars of course, but that way they can say there's still bumping. Never mind a very possible scenario where the slowest chartered car is slower than any of the unchartered cars that had to bump their way in. I recall you pointed this out in an earlier video when this new mess was first being introduced.

[@Ultimate23Dragon]

@@michaeljacobs2954 And it'll be Graham Rahal as per usual.

[@dylanhale7300]

The simple fact of the matter is Indycar racing's management has done everything possible in the last 5-6 years to prove they are stupid, incompetent, and backwards thinking. There is 0 reason us as fans can or should trust them. Especially after Mark Miles' comments and attitude at Milwaukee...

[@davidgray1515]

what took so long to figure that out? Penske sucks

[@elemkay5104]

Yeah, Mark Miles got shafted by the journalist who quoted him. He was literally saying the words of a Mexican Race promoter ad verbatim, not his personal opinion of Pato. And everyone just ran with it, including Pato.

[@earlybirdearlybird1371]

My Words

[@McLMP4-22]

And now IndyCar will implement stages whilst reworking the points system into a playoff system. That was obviously an attempt on humour, but will it really be surprising if they do that?

[@CarlosMedina-wu8ug]

No. I actually think it's inevitable. It's going to be a sad day when the series that made me fall in love with racing in 1980 becomes unwatchable to me.

[@frankwilliamson3842]

@@CarlosMedina-wu8ug Nascar has been unwatchable for long time. If Indycar tries a "chase or playoff", well it won't be hard to not watch it either.

[@CarlosMedina-wu8ug]

@@frankwilliamson3842 Won't be hard at all, but it will be sad for me. WTF is a "stage" in a 500mile race BTW?

[@needsmetal]

dont get give them ideas

[@tonykuriger573]

Playoff system? *vomits

[@gagemcpherson1956]

Jesus i miss the Indycar i grew up with

[@lewiskemp5893]

That's every form of racing.

[@SecretAsianYoshi]

I remember going to a cart race at laguna seca in the 90's. I miss those days.

[@gagemcpherson1956]

It just pisses me off it's like they want it to fail thank God for older races on KZbin

[@ILSRWY4]

I grew up with 10 different Indycars chassis and 5 different engines... I grew up when nascar stock cars looked like the brand they represented... but times have changed and all in the name of money

[@Guilherme4KFPS]

To me the worst thing is to cap the field to 27. Like for what? Watched the whole video now, and does IndyCar wants to kill the series? They want to create their version of F1 old guys club, but without the market value of it...

[@FTHurley]

They're limited to that by pit lane size at several tracks. Not saying that is or isn't a good reason - people are going to disagree obviously - but it does seem like the max number they can run and know they can have the same number regardless of circuit.

[@ryanfraley7113]

@@Guilherme4KFPS The 27 cap is more of a physical limitation to some of the tracks.

[@peters5333]

you pretty much nailed it. Glorified club racing.

[@Guilherme4KFPS]

@@FTHurley @ryanfraley7113 I know that some tracks have a limit in pit stalls, but if this rule was put in place mainly because of this it could be written as "The cap limit of entries is based on the number of pit stalls by the venue". The way they did just create way to bring more value to the charters and to give them a way to limit the field at 25 in the future, and to make anyone who wants to keep racing like Prema to buy a charter at a higher price. And also gives the charted teams an way to fck Prema or any other non charted team if they are in the championship hunt. Those teams could easily enter another car at a Oval and send Prema packing.

[@bigdaddymak1439]

​@@peters5333When's it ever not been a club?? All the Americans go to NASCAR they ain't ever invited but are told they're no good. Even though we saw Kyle Larson at Indy. Penske and ganassi are schmucks

[@patrickracer43]

We've seen the impact of something like this in both NASCAR and F1, NASCAR hasn't had a full 40 car field outside of the Daytona 500 ever since the introduction of charters and reducing the field from a 43 car cap down to a 40 car cap, and the creating a "boys club" is something that we've seen with Andretti's fight to get into F1, with F1 yapping about Andretti "not bringing value" meanwhile you have a team like Alpine, the RENALUT WORKS PROGRAM, talking about switching from Renault power

[@TheJingles007]

I miss 43 car fields. NASCAR is a shell of what it used to be, and I really hope IndyCar doesn’t follow suit

[@horsecrazyviking7121]

I really do wonder how F1 doesn’t think Andretti would bring value but teams like Haas, Williams, Alpine, and Kick Sauber do.

[@DUDECOWSYR]

@horsecrazyviking7121 I like F1, but they should expand to 24 cars and pay points back through the whole field.

[@Ryzard]

Eyuuup

[@Ryzard]

​@@horsecrazyviking7121 they don't, they just need a legal excuse to deny them despite the FIA approving them. The actual reason is that the other teams decide, and they don't want to split the prize cash or have potential competition

[@naparacingfan9275]

Yay less cars in the field and locked up spots ugh. Can 2024 get any worse for IndyCar? Terrible year from a PR and fan standpoint.

[@sams-pg7hj]

its a great day for PR and the fans.

[@ic3man]

@@sams-pg7hjbullshit

[@eldiablort1461]

@@sams-pg7hj No, it's not.

[@GregBrownsWorldORacing]

Yeah, they could add that 'race' at Thermal-Club.... Wait

[@JonDoe-ln6nl]

FEWER cars!! Go back to 7th grade English class!!

[@EstebanRapido]

"Let's make a bunch of rules, so we can make a bunch more rules."

[@jacobmorgan6660]

I really don't understand why PREMA doesn't have a charter/isnt encouraged to get one, make 29 the cap or something and have PREMA get some charters. They're coming into the sport having the world up against them which is super discouraging for competition. If any of the big teams decide to put an extra entry forward, then guess what PREMA, you don't get to have one of your cars in the field (potentially). Having the system start out as one that potentially immediately harms a new team to the sport is a really bad look.

[@sams-pg7hj]

27 is the cap due to pit space at mid Ohio and Toronto

[@davidfstanford]

​. So make that a cap at those places and leave the rest alone.

[@MattGoelz]

Agreed. I think a good solution would've been to have only 2 guaranteed charters per team but allow a 3rd to those that have 3. But, if that 3rd car gets beat by a Prema in the standings, they forfeit that 3rd charter to Prema indefinitely. That way new teams can still come in and compete for charters but each new team will have presumably a tougher and tougher time actually getting it. While it would also further incentivise the teams with 3 to field the best 3 drivers they can instead of middling pay drivers

[@grooviefan]

@@sams-pg7hjdoubt that had anything to do w it

[@davidhyson9910]

​that'sa very weak reason. How about if you don't make the top 27, you just load up like a big boy. No, even if you suck, wad up your shit in practice you are "guaranteed your Charter 25 spot".

[@dmurphy1578]

That’s a shame. Indy was cool because all you needed was a car and engine.

[@davidgray1515]

and a driver that wasnt F1 POS.

[@danielhenderson8316]

That hasn't been a thing for almost 50 years.

[@Logan912]

@@danielhenderson8316 Exactly. It's just like when people say "I miss when NASCAR was actual stock cars" which hasn't been the case since before the 70s.

[@danielhenderson8316]

@@Logan912 What I find laughable about current NASCAR fans whining about how NASCAR is turning into GP3CAR is if that actually happened and the field was GT3 Mustangs, Corvettes, and Lexus RCs, it would be closer to "stock cars" than it has been for at least 40 years.

[@Ryzard]

​@@Logan912 and most of the people saying that weren't alive, and even then they were dubiously "stock" to begin with lol

[@Ghettocowboy33]

We just wanted a video game…

[@Montgomery_N_Pottichen04]

I want a Champ Car World Series video game

[@darrylkraatz1482]

That’s never coming. That would attract young people.

[@Ghettocowboy33]

@@darrylkraatz1482 for sure. IC is just a club sport for out of touch old white guys.

[@miketwotwenty]

Maybe some Indycars could come to Gran Turismo 7!

[@earlybirdearlybird1371]

@@Montgomery_N_Pottichen04 OH YES !!!

[@nathanakers45]

How the heck did Penske pull off claiming 25% of each charter? Can't believe the other owners agreed to that

[@JS-kh5ls]

Sounds like a poison pill to keep them from selling at all

[@davidhyson9910]

And the prospective buyer must be approved. This is not going to end well, is it.

[@ILSRWY4]

Roger Penske owes Tony George an Apology.

[@jdubvdub]

I don’t think I could care less about a charter system. I just want to see a new car and some variety in the equipment.

[@ryanward6386]

It seems to be just going the way other top-tier racing series are going, like Nascar, like Formula 1. Top-tier motor racing is turning into a country-club system consisting of the teams with the most money. The days of the little guy building a car in their garage and making it big are officially over.

[@kevinbodman1011]

It's been over.

[@matthanna7162]

Off topic, but that particular Miller Genuine Draft livery is my favourite Indycar livery of all time.

[@SecretAsianYoshi]

The silver 1996 anniversary livery was so nice.

[@DrewBlankMusic]

@@matthanna7162 JPS knockoff. Tell Jack I said hi.

[@johlgren]

One thing i realized i had missed was that the winner circle of the top 22 is only eligible if you are a charterd entry, meaning that even if say Prema manages to end up at top 15 in standings they are still not eligible for the prize money because they are not charted entrys.

[@darrylkraatz1482]

Gotta keep the money in the good ole boys club! We wouldn’t want, heaven forbid, competition! What kinda racers are these people?

[@SuperAngryWalrus]

I'm shocked Prema isn't involved. Seems like a poor way to welcome a new team to the series.

[@black_sheep2520]

Tell lackluster DCR to sell their charter to Prema.

[@MrBestshot33]

Greaaaaatt.... No new blood. No new teams. No new start ups. This is a good ol boys joke.

[@koalaracingfan]

Just like f1 no new teams allowed

[@bryonmahler3806]

If memory serves me correctly, there was a limit of 20 cars at each race outside of Indy when USAC was involved. The car limit will not prevent new owners from coming to the series. The cost of entry due to the need for a charter might.

[@speedtracker9556]

Charters shouldn't belong on motorsports. Period.

[@hickoryhound]

Spec racing is what brought all of this about. The rules are locked down so tight it isn't like someone can just show up and spoil the party. It's a party and if you aren't invited you're not invited.

[@Huckle15]

At least no guaranteed spots at Indy… yet

[@precesionnoreaster1507]

they are coming, this is a stepping stone

[@ILSRWY4]

give it time...

[@Maverick33]

Give it time. We'll eventually see a rebooted 25/8 rule. Except it'll be the 27/6 rule. Meaning the 27 chartered entries are guaranteed and 6 open spots. Similar to how in the Daytona 500, the 38 chartered entries are guaranteed a spot with 2 or 3 cars battling for the 2 open spots

[@MarkWick]

So what does this mean for Dreyer and Reinbold. Dennis Reinbold has made it clear he doesn't like this. And, with a 27 car limit, even at tracks which can accommodate another car or two, how are IndyNXT driver s supposed to get race experience in IndyCar? This seems very short sighted to me. The better drivers race ahead of where they are, meaning looking further up the track, rather than right in front of them. It seems to me Penske Entertainment and the team owners are not looking ahead.

[@danielhenderson8316]

Well, if Sale Coyne can't stick to 3 drivers a year for 1 car, give the winner of Indy NXT a full year right with Sale Coyne and see what happens. We're pretty much capped with the current engine supply as is.

[@hickoryhound]

@@danielhenderson8316 Exactly. Honda and GM max out at 35 engines for Indy and that is considered a special occasion. Indycar really needs another engine manufacturer or two. That would be good for Honda and GM. If you get Honda and GM to commit to 10 engine leases with 12 for Indy and find another source, then the sport will be healthier. If you could find two, then you lower those numbers further (8/10). It costs everyone less to participate. Same goes for tub and chassis kits.

[@MattGoelz]

​@@hickoryhound Another negative of the charter is if Ferrari had a real interest in joining the sport, surely they wouldve also liked to field a team, not just supply engines. This deal pretty much kills anything like that from happening

[@chipstetson974]

What do the owners get? A contrived value? The charter is an expensive permission slip to join a floundering race series, ancient cars, poor television viewership run by an entity that investigates its own infractions. What more does the fan realize? Is there a huge marketing plan that the owners liked, thus signing this agreement? Just how is the series improved ? None of this sounds good. Find Hamlin and Jordan and combine forces....I don't have a clue how this is beneficial.

[@Ghettocowboy33]

This just means this is no more than a club series that happens to have the 500.

[@kermitthefrog9153]

The biggest question i have is simply... why? What makes indycar think that limiting the field to 25 eventually so only chartered teams can get in is a good idea i genuinely want to know.

[@horsecrazyviking7121]

Well if they think there’s no hope of growing then they might as well focus on the current main teams only.

[@danielhenderson8316]

Because the current engine supply is at capacity and Honda is thinking about leaving.

[@darrylkraatz1482]

Good thought

[@PaperBanjo64]

We desperately need a third engine supplier!

[@skyhigh335]

I may get some hate for this.. For me personally after all the years watching American open-wheel racing since 1994 (including the split years), this is a sad day. I honestly can't say much positive things about the charter system. Although it will provide stability to existing teams, Look at the repercussions on what it did to Nascar especially for the smaller teams like Furniture Row racing (despite winning a championship a year prior before closing) and Levaine Family Racing (competing for top-5 finishes in its final years). In time, it will only limit participation and future growth, such as new teams who is willing compete at least outside the indy 500. I feel bad for the Prema team. The only indycar race I'm gonna watch in future is the indy 500 and that's it!!

[@anthony0358]

You did an excellent job on this video. I am so disappointed that Indy Car is doing this. They will eventually limit the field to 25 cars, except for the Indy500. It is the final nail in the coffin for my support of Penske owning the series. 5 seasons of going backwards. Penske getting 25 percent of the any charter sales is disgraceful. How would McClaren have gotten into Indy Car under this system.

[@danielhenderson8316]

How exactly are we going backwards? If anything, we're standing in the same spot since 2019.

[@PaperBanjo64]

​@danielhenderson8316 I feel if anything at least Roger Penske himself provided stability, problem is same clowns are running the show now as back then.

[@mikecrockett3669]

This isn’t what the fans wanted…at all. Indy Car knows this so this must be the first step in a more nefarious plan…..like forcing much more hybrid technology. There just seems to be no reason to do this. They need to add big time prize money back into the series. Force better competition, period.

[@Ryzard]

Issue: that costs them money though :((( so it's impossible and bad actually

[@SongJLikes]

It’s a profit plan…. They are trying to stabilize the series to maximize sponsor value/team value

[@mikecrockett3669]

@@SongJLikes I agree and disagree. I think if what you are saying was the plan Penske wouldn't automatically own 25% of every charter. This limits capitalization in a capitalist economy. Supply and demand. Supply good competitive racing where the true cream of the crop rises then demand (including sponsorship) will and has always increased. Charter systems are the equivalent of expensive participation trophies. I'm not here to say my opinion is better than anyone else's and I truly value the power of debate. I 100% agree with you stability is a good thing in a racing series, however, I feel what makes great racing is the lack of stability. Put up or shut up. If you place well compensation should follow. Charter systems eliminate that. They (hate this over used word) literally require participation policies enforced as rules. With a charter system you are guaranteed x% of a pool of money that as a team owning a charter you don't get to negotiate on your own behalf...these legacy teams are gonna make money simply by participating...potentially a lot of money...and thats my big rub. Participating shouldn't guarantee anything in motorsports....winning fairly should in my opinion. Thank you for the response...gave me info to think about. Have a great day and God bless you.

[@SongJLikes]

@@mikecrockett3669 - well, when “good competitive racing” fails to yield increased sponsorships/team profits, as it has with IndyCar, businessmen like Penske and Co. will maneuver their series for stability in order to steadily increase value. I hope you have a good day, too! And may science bless you as well 🙏

[@glennlane6599]

Charters will make it harder for new teams to join Indycar and that is a bad thing.

[@SuperMacGuy]

A lock in system is never good, for anyone anywhere. Way to ladder pull, INDYCAR. Looking forward to Cart Split 2.0 in about 5 years.

[@josephrupsis4623]

Wouldn't it be the third split? Sigh...

[@cp6565]

I have a bad feeling about this. Brings back memories of the split.

[@PaperBanjo64]

Me too I hope we're wrong. IndyCar has so much wrong yet so much right...the racing is near perfect yet gets terrible ratings even though attendance is usually good.

[@OrganizedMess0025]

As long as they're open to minor expansions in the coming years, unlike nascar and also f1 with the recent andretti f1 drama, I'm not mad tbh. They kept the indy 500 a race you must qualify on speed alone and that make's me so happy. Edit: Seeing some of the finer details... yikes.

[@DomSmith22]

The whole thing is really a shambles sadly. Money over Fans like everything. There won’t be another underdog story again like a Bertrand Baguette leading

[@thejman3489]

I'm starting to think Chevy and Honda might have something to do with these charter agreements. Trying to reduce car count so they don't have to build as many engines each year.

[@vinniebaratta3508]

How can you look at nascar charters and go out of your way to emulate that?

[@patrickracer43]

At least with the Indycar charters ownership doesn't want to take a certain number already reserved for a new OEM and give it to the sanctioning body's ownership (mainly because Penske already has three valid charters)

[@DJDouglasWarden]

I still don't understand the necessity of the charter agreement.

[@GreenHornet553]

IndyCar is unbelievably shortsighted and it is depressing that they essentially want to be open wheel NASCAR.

[@davidgray1515]

actually none of the wheels are open. All protected more than go cart racing since the F1 babies came in.

[@MrWATM]

Gosh. The marketing people need a catchier name for the series now. They could call it, Championship Auto Racing Teams!

[@KevinQuinn81]

If you know why CART was a thing, you know what happens when the owners stop liking the charter agreement.

[@danielhenderson8316]

Where else are they going to go? It's not like they're going to make their own series since F1 is more popular and more successful than IndyCar in the US. We also saw what happened to an IndyCar series without an Indy 500.

[@HunkDrangus]

Yeah, this is incredibly stupid for indycar.

[@Milton_Valenzuela]

It's funny how IndyCar is slowly becoming what Formula 1 is now, with Andretti Global getting 3 charters and also getting rejected by F1

[@randalflagg3765]

I used to watch NASCAR every Sunday like clockwork. Then they started doing shit like this. Now I can't even stand to watch 10min of a race. I'll abandon Indycar too if they keep it up

[@calvinkatt662]

I don't get limiting the filed to 27 at all tracks except Indy. I know that some tracks only have room for 27. That's fine. But with 27 full time cars, how will a team field a one-off to evaluate someone like an Indy NXT driver? There needs to be a few tracks, that have the pit space, that allow a 28th car for such one-offs.

[@pacerfan0031]

You misspoke or reported in error something very important here. You mentioned Penske getting 25% of the sale of any of the charters which isn’t accurate. Penske does get a small percent of any sale but it’s not 25% and Marshall didn’t reference 25 in the article You referenced. It just says that Penske maintains the actual ownership of all 25 charters. That is standard to prevent an aggressive takeover. The teams have the economic interest in the charter but not the charter itself.

[@robertjohnson3514]

Just my 2 cents: I feel like a charter system is a necessary evil in todays world. It has some benefits, but I have mixed feelings on their implementation, though. It might be easier to sell sponsorships if there is certainty the team won't fold mid-year, which is a plus for the business side of the sport. Honestly I would rather see either cap of total entries with no cap on charters per team, or the other way around instead of how they have it now. That way there would be room for expansion down the line. One thing I'd love to see in the future is a wild-card entry system like they have in the Repco Supercars series for the Non-Indy 500 races. It would be an additional car that wouldn't need to qualify, a good look for sponsors, lots of airtime, and a way to promote up and coming teams and talent. We'll have to see how this plays out, I guess

[@MrBestshot33]

Car Cap limit is ridiculous

[@ericlindgren212]

I tuned in for news, but didn't hear a word. My jaw dropped at the beautiful 1/18 scale red '86 March driven by my favorite driver of all time. I'm inspired to go hit up ebay right now.

[@ericlindgren212]

On first pass through, this search might take a while 🤨

[@hickoryhound]

Since Honda and GM will only put together 35 cars, the teams don't have to worry that much about losing one of those 8 spots at Indy. The teams want that low intensity bump day drama to continue. So they keep those spots open at Indy for now.

[@darrylkraatz1482]

They just can’t seem to ever get anywhere. Some of these same fools screwed up Indy Car racing years ago and it’s still suffering.It’s like they want to finish it off and kill it.

[@ampgp03d]

Somehow, Penske has created something that has put to the infamous 25/8 rule to shame. It may have taken him nearly 30 years of scheming and plotting but Rodger Penske’a revenge on that 1995 Indy 500 DNQ and subsequent 25/8 rule Tony George made and cause the split. Rodger literally Palpatined his way into being the exact beast that burned him all those years ago. Impressive stuff but scary as all hell. And we thought the NASCAR charter system was bad.

[@danielhenderson8316]

You act like IndyCar is in good enough shape to attract more than it has right now. Both engine suppliers are maxed out to capacity in full time programs, they can only take a couple more extra teams for the Indy 500, and there's no sign of a 3rd engine supplier to make an expanded field possible.

[@ampgp03d]

@@danielhenderson8316Oh I know INDYCAR is in a bad way. They have never fully recovered from the split. Penske buying it and with this coming out today has all but insured this series to become a spec series that will become a boys club sport like Formula One has.

[@danielhenderson8316]

@@ampgp03d As long as there's pay drivers in the field and no more engines to add anymore cars, then this charter isn't going to change much of anything. What will be interesting is to see what the Fox deal does with IndyCar's visibility and interest. If viewership stays the same with Indy NXT and quali on FS1/FS2 and the races on main Fox, this charter maybe the only thing keeping this series alive. I'd love to see Randy Bernard get rehired and work just on the marketing side as opposed to making him run the whole ship with no help like the George sisters did to him.

[@darrylkraatz1482]

Randy at least tried things. He at least got us an East Coast race.

[@EKC-v7b]

Need a new chassis every 5-6 years

[@NukeshotMedia]

Hear me out on this. If the idea behind the Leader Circle is to give teams lower down the order something to race for, then I think Indycar should do something more like F1's constructors championship, but without as big gaps (1st in F1 gets over double what 10th gets). Say the total Leader Circle money is $100m (for easy math). 100 divided by 25 cars = $4m average. Have 1st place get $4.5m. Have 25th place get $3.5m. And have an even stagger for the places in-between ($40k per position). That way you're still incentivised to do better to win more money, but throughout the whole charted field, and also including some money for 23rd 24th & 25th.

[@flareog134]

if 25% of all charters and their sales goes to penske, what exactly will he use that money for? how do we know he won't use it on his team's racecraft to get a leg up on the field? i know it's basically a taboo in the indycar community to say penske gives himself unfair advantages, but the cracks were really beginning to show throughout the 2024 season

[@ilionreactor1079]

If Penske wanted to cheat (at his own game), don't you think he would have WON?

[@timmccrory7630]

I miss the old Indianapolis 500. When the whole month was trying to make the field, then bump day, then carb day. Thank God they left in Annapolis out of this.

[@Clyde-2055]

Tony Hulman elevated the Indianapolis 500 to the most preeminent auto race in the world … And his grandson single-handedly brought it all crashing down. So sad …

[@Maverick33]

​@@Clyde-2055then Penske ruined all credibility left of the race after the rigging of the 2023 finish. Even the 2024 Indianapolis 500 was suspicious to me. I mean every INDYCAR race that Penske wins is now suspicious to me for obvious reasons but Indianapolis especially.

[@goodshipkaraboudjan]

I certainly don't hate the idea as much as I did at conception. The reason the teams back it is because they're know more than we do...

[@PaperBanjo64]

I mean it helps them why wouldn't they back it!?

[@NotSteveCook]

The inmates are again running the asylum

[@jerryhair7301]

I just don’t understand how the charter actually adds to the resale value of a team. Spending $10m or more each year to race for $1m is not a sustainable business model. A business typically sells for sone multiple of either their revenues or earnings. Otherwise you are back to just selling your assets. My guess is most if not all teams only significant source of revenue is sponsorship and I’ll bet most of those contracts are not transferrable. To Methodist nothing more that a power grab by Penske Entertainment

[@willgriffin5647]

As much as I think the NASCAR charter has flaws, I do think teams who show up EVERY week for EVERY season DESERVE to be locked into races. How would it be fair to see a one off team knock Chase, Blaney, or Denny out of the 500 or 600? They show up for EVERY race and missing a race could knock you out of winning the championship. Chase And Dixon should NEVER have to be worried about missing a race. In what world would it be fair to have the 66 and 17 knock out the 9 teamS in the 500 and 600? They're running every week and running for championships.

[@natel7382]

Funny how penske got caught cheating then finally agrees to the charter. The rage penske must have to own everything and still lose to CGR. "I thought they changed the rules"...

[@danielhenderson8316]

What's funny is how you left out that Penske has wanted a charter system since 2019. It's like you're trolling or something.

[@natel7382]

@@danielhenderson8316 you are one gullible person. Tell me what was stopping the owner of the series, a team, and a track from enacting it? Oh maybe it was held over everyone's heads as long as they are good little children. It's exactly like politics. But you prob don't think they cheated either. I'll refer to my quote.

[@danielhenderson8316]

@@natel7382 Now reading comprehension is a failure for you. You said that Penske was caught cheating and THEN agreed to the charters instead of wanting charters the whole time. That's why no one ever expected you to be more than a welfare baby.

[@KenPeckham]

The cap of the 27 cars could also be a limit for the engine suppliers... Honda and Chevy. The more engines they have to supply the more expensive it gets for them as well.

[@danielhenderson8316]

Yep. Chevy and Honda are topped out as far as full time engine leases go. They can take more for the Indy 500 or at a couple of races, but nothing else for the full schedule without a 3rd engine maker.

[@grooviefan]

@@danielhenderson8316sorry but that is a longstanding lie. They make replacement components all the time. They could build more engines. They just don’t want to.

[@charleshulsey3103]

it's been lame since the fall of CART. Diversity of engineering is important.

[@davidgray1515]

CART was the lamest series ever. Paul Tracy constantly crashing.

[@Montgomery_N_Pottichen04]

⁠@@davidgray1515that’s a dumbass statement, like it revolved around Tracy crashing… CART was embraced by fans worldwide.

[@danielhenderson8316]

@@Montgomery_N_Pottichen04 He's a Tony George nuthugger. Don't expect common sense from him.

[@TheSpeedracer1982]

Charters in racing is re… stupid

[@bshoke]

Racing is better when there are less barriers to entry not more, NASCAR, Indy, etc if you could show up with a legal chassis, and be fast enough on qualifying day you get to run, additionally it’s better if there are competing chassis and teams can massage, rub money on, and be creative with them a bit. But this is about money, not good compelling racing, competition, or winning. Frankly charter systems in racing are participation trophies.

[@janeordway4841]

If there was another 500 mile race it would be nice to have more than 27 cars . Like 30 to have a even amount of cars for the start on the super speedways.

[@ptstephani]

Don’t think promoting $1M for finishing in the top 22 or the cost of a partial season engine lease is good for anyone.

[@vinewood8295]

Trash, at this point I only wish they'd bring back Pocono & Michigan so we could have 3 500 milers again...

[@warphammer]

Three drivers per car per year? So that's why Zak signed someone to the 6 long term. Qualifying to get in, teams coming from nowhere, entitlement to the winnings of your success, these are all core to motorsport. But then so is being able to innovate your own chassis and engine, and champions being based on season points, and those are both looked down upon in some or all corners these days. The seeming curb on any new or up and coming teams is a huge mistake. The 22 Winner's Circle members/25 charters thing is a softer version of the NASCAR 'consistent bottom three can be revoked' rule, IMO. Encourage SOME churn.

[@McElreaSowery]

It would be completely fine if they just gave prema charters

[@ic3man]

I hope the drivers in your @ are the drivers for Dale Coyne in 2025

[@christopherwheeler2694]

Pratt & Miller was openly discussing joining the series with their own team. I wonder if there’s some politics going on and maybe the 27 car limit is a way to discourage that.

[@danielhenderson8316]

Engine supply is at maximum. We would need a 3rd engine manufacturer to grow the field larger than it is right now on a permanent basis. If IndyCar couldn't do that before COVID then it's not going to happen in the immediate future. If the new car that's been mentioned for 2027 is actually a thing and attracts more manufacturers, then there's a conversation worth happening.

[@christopherwheeler2694]

@@danielhenderson8316 yeah, engines are definitely an issue. I always assumed Pratt & Miller had an in that could get them engines. Especially with Honda supplying almost 2/3 of the field. Seems like Chevy needs to step up and pull its own weight.

[@danielhenderson8316]

@@christopherwheeler2694 There's no way Pratt & Miller would join any series and not use a GM engine if it was available. However, Chevy is working as hard as Honda. For 2024, it's looking like 14/13 Chevy/Honda for the whole year with each adding 3 or so engines for the Indy 500. Chevy is also not blowing up as often as Hondas are as well.

[@Maverick33]

​@@danielhenderson8316the only way INDYCAR would get any new engine manufacturer is if GM ever replaces Chevy with Cadillac. Which could happen considering GM is pushing the Cadillac brand in motorsports lately

[@thorenshammer]

The future might be bright now, but as you said, what happens when the shine wears off? then NTT will go the way of the old CART series.

[@facundomartinez188]

Here's what i want: 1. Another 500 mile race in the schedule 2.cut iowa double header by just one race. 3. Expanded calendar,not disappear for 6 months. 4. Toyota and ford to join honda and chevy. 5.v8 engine 6.better promotions of the races,more "official" content from the series accross social media. 7. Create other markets! 8. Another chassis constructor. Godddd i miss the reynard from 2000,penske custom for ovals. 9. Better grafics,more radios. Jesus! Does anyone know about f1 or nascar in the series? 10. Charter? What charter? I want pure racing. Another races like the old pocono 500..i mean,something beyond the indy500..

[@JonDoe-ln6nl]

Agree with everything but #5 - OEMs are not building V8s now or in the future. We’re lucky enough with 6 cylinders … wait until they go to Biturbo V4 hybrids.

[@monroebass4606]

In order to secure a deal like Fox, is it possible they required this as an insurance policy for their advertisers that there would be a certain number of cars at each race for the season? For their huge investment they would need some sort of guarantee the season would be complete. I could be wrong, but it seems this charter would help drivers like Sting Ray’s 1 point loss of the million because of multiple drivers in cars ahead of him?

[@danielhenderson8316]

I doubt it. ESPN still aired the IRL when they were down to 18 cars a race because the Indy 500 still brings in a reliable 4 million views a year.

[@Wily_Ambition6819]

All good points. This is a small step into improving the series BUT as you said, if it doenst let other teams dip their water in, it could be really really bad

[@andyhamilton8940]

Love the Rahal car driving off the cliff.

[@MatthewLittle]

At least one good thing occurred from this: gone will be the days where numerous drivers came into the series over at Dale Coyne Racing; now they're limited to three drivers per car for the year. IOW, he's going to now have to start finding drivers w/a bigger budget instead of the driver-a-thon we see from DCR most years.

[@jacobgivens7906]

A dark day for all motorsports fans

[@extragoogleaccount6061]

Doesnt the leaders circle just punish smaller teams and startups?

[@peters5333]

for a real discussion on charters rewind back to Kenny Wallace interviewing Kelley Earnhardt Elledge a few months ago. he put the question to her. why are you and Dale not in Sprint Cup? to her credit she answered in a lot of detail with all the realistic nuts and bolts and it involved the 'mystery' of the charter system and the way the Stewart-Haas sale went down. so, a more immediate question. I'm Prema. I have a veteran driver somewhat in Callum Ilott who knows the circuits and a new kid named Shwartzman who has a good pedal. I'm not a charter team so I am #26 and #27 in the status of Indycar. I at Prema do fairly well and often beat RLL and often beat JHR and DCR. Charter teams. I make the Leader Circle and get my cash. 2 Charter teams don't. ...so let me ask, how will that sit? that was rhetorical. for those marginal bottom 3 or 4 teams, you better believe they may have a Speedway Bob or Double D DeFranceso to make sure the dollars are in place as a cushion. All that is, is glorified club racing. Charters.....meh!

[@stormsmith6772]

Indycar stage racing in the future 😂😂😂😂

[@MaxKleinbub]

I would die

[@bartsullivan4866]

I sure hope not

[@PaperBanjo64]

I'd quit watching...I switched to IndyCar to get away from NASCAR's BS gimmicks...IndyCar would lose the entire audience!

[@bartsullivan4866]

@@PaperBanjo64 I think they will be ok until they go to stage racing that would be ludicrous speed GO!!!!!

[@IanTheMotorsportsMan_YT]

Just like NASCAR and other racing series that have it, charters suck. Charters are ONLY good for big teams or rich teams because they can just buy exclusive entries with no problems. Plus charters make things more expensive as well. Guaranteed and exclusive spots are ridiculous. Plus it’s even dumber that all teams are limited to 3 teams. Absolute ridiculous, just like the 4-team limits in NASCAR. Typical Penske being influenced by NASCAR and Race Team Alliance for having charters. Another bad day in the world of IndyCar, but we’re in the offseason. So that’s no surprise.

[@PaperBanjo64]

I see Ganassi not running 5 cars full-time anymore as a good thing especially as 2 were pay drivers

[@hickoryhound]

I think it is more about hunkering down economically and keeping the cost of participation down. I don't get it, but that is obvious. They don't care about growing the sport. They just want to maintain the status quo.

[@ruddgrandprix-speedrunraci8515]

We could have a better chassis and engine more competitive and pretty much skill-based. But no, they just wanted a NASCAR derived Charter system. Dave went to compete against the ratings of World Wrestling Entertainment and NASCAR with no explanation or reason to back up. There goes my chance to tune in to any races.

[@ruddgrandprix-speedrunraci8515]

At least Indy 500 at Indianapolis Motor Speedway was unaffected. Just one negative working moment just to sacre me away from the sport itself, never to be seen again.

[@bryonkidder6199]

How much does the Indy 500 pay to win nowadays or do they keep that a secret too? I miss the days when Emerson Fittipaldi had pictures of him, the car, and the stacks of money on the start/finish line after the race!

[@danielhenderson8316]

@@bryonkidder6199 About the same as it did 40 years ago.

[@manuelortiz7731]

Why not make it the old fashion way, price money in every race….

[@NotSteveCook]

That would require someone leading the series who has a vision. Other than Randy Bernard, who was ousted by certain car owners, no one in IndyCar racing has led the sport with a true vision for decades, if ever. The series needs a Bernie or a Bill France. Penske isn't it.

[@MattGoelz]

There should only be 2 guaranteed charters per team with a clause of forfeiture on all of the 3rd "grandfathered in" team charters if a new team manages to beat one of them in the season owners standings. That way Prema has a path to a charter, albeit a challenging one and it would further incentivise RLL, CGR, Penske, McLaren and Andretti to field the absolute best 3 drivers they can find. Plus, any other new teams would also have a path to a charter but it would be more and more challenging as Prema beating the 3rd RLL might be a bit easier than the next new team having to beat the 3rd CGR or 3rd Penske

[@Clyde-2055]

I like it !

[@charlesw53]

If the fix the cap at the numbers of charters, eventually it would also hurt the Indy 500. Filling the field would there will become difficult. Getting new owners / cars will become seriously impaired. Sounds like FI - hear me Andretti.

[@davidgray1515]

Have I not said that Penske would ruin Indycar from day 1? How did I get so smart? Someone should be paying me!

[@dack4dust856]

Then who should run it?

[@f1jones544]

​​@@dack4dust856 someone who 1) recognizes and understands the challenges Indycar has towards marketing and promotion and who has a plan to improve this hidden series' nonexistent exposure, 2) someone who doesn't have a vested interest in creating protectionism because of 3) being someone who has a conflict of interest resulting from being a team owner AND circuit owner. In the four years since the excuse of Covid, all I've seen from Penske are moves that benefit his interests first and foremost and not that of the series, just like I and the OP expected from day 1. This series has gone nowhere since he bought this thing and none of the core issues that have been holding it back have been addressed. I'm sure someone will say "TV contract" but that was always going to need to be addressed due to an expirey and we don't know yet if even that's going to be an improvement yet. As it is, Indycar is still the world's most expensive historic racing series but now with an artificial barrier of entry.

[@ic3man]

That’s what I said and almost everyone disagreed with me. Not almost everyone agrees with us

[@MrDavidfball]

sounds like the concorde agreement in F1, the teams disappeared and the grids got smaller and with the old skool viewers who remember large grids and pre-qualifying the interest disappeared. whats the interest in the sport if its the same old teams year in year out with the only changes being drivers and a few sponsors?

[@dustykh]

Who looks at nascar's charter system and thinks its a good idea?

[@robertpenson2954]

This reminds usac vs cart in the late 70s

[@paulpark1170]

Penske the Emperor with no clothes…

[@Dan-ql1st]

this charter system is just to give team owners a chance to sell when it comes to that... it's a pity for the fact that possible entrants(racing enthusiasts) won't have a chance to race, unless they buy one of the existing teams. Dreyer and Reinbold, for example, any dream of going full season just went out the window... Reckon each team should only have 2 charters.

[@stevenvalentin4584]

I am significantly less likely to watch every indycar race as a result of this. What is the point of watching a series that is a good old boys club with spec chassis and 2 engine suppliers. So new teams, no new chassis, no new engine suppliers. What is the point. It sounds closer and closer to Nascar.

[@markjones8321]

Why is Indycar making it more expensive to race? I don't think that this was the right move to get higher car count. I understand its not the 90s anymore. Penske needs to make the series more exciting. Need a new chassis and engine package. Hey more than one chassis company would be great. That would make it more interesting. To me Indycar right now is like Cart when the Reynard Honda package was winning all of the time. I am an avid Indycar fan, but Indycar hasn't been indycar sense before the split in 1996. Things need to change. Michael Andretti is right. Penske needs to sell the series so that there can be a big investment made into the series to make it better.

[@hickoryhound]

This won't make the racing more expensive.

[@danielhenderson8316]

Supposedly 2027 is when the new chassis will be ready, but when the DW12 was taking tenders, no one else from Panoz, Swift, or the others wanted any competition except for Dallara. Paying a 3rd manufacturer to come in won't make the series any healthier. At the moment, we're not going to know anything about the direction of IndyCar until we're racing on Fox next year.

[@RicoOCHO85]

Is prema not a full.time team.or something? Confused on why they aren't in the charter or ehat have tou

[@d.d.7287]

Im not sure how i feel about this. I wnat the big, flashy, exciting changes as much as anybody but i think Penske is focused on the long game. On the bright side the charter system only runs for 7 years, which isnt a terribly long time. Also, off topic but Rossi to ECR?....