Insane Power in a Tiny Carbine: The Genesis 8.6mm PDW [TriggrCon 2023]

[@MarkyMan316]

"300 BO is so expensive to shoot" 8.6: "hold my beer"

[@NaNa-rb7ou]

Try 338 lapua mag

[@mlgtactics9911]

Today I learned 8.6 is a cartridge

[@edgarburlyman738]

Remember you can use hardcast bullets w these subsonic rounds

[@andreww9513]

$2+ per round, Elon Musk can afford to train with it. Puts it right in the "only some people should own guns" cost per round.

[@mysterioanonymous3206]

​​​​​​@@andreww9513meh... That's nothing. Here in Switzerland my hunting rounds cost between 100usd and 120usd for a box of 20 (classic Euro calibers, 308 or 30-06 are a bit better but still pricey for a good hunting bullet). Range will be anywhere from 30usd for 10 shots to 120usd an hour - no alternatives. A little practice costs you a pretty dime real quick. You guys have no clue how good you have it.

[@gdw1316]

G9's projectile is definitely red rocket inspired.

[@addisonnapier2125]

lehigh defense knock off

[@eliaspergande2663]

Nah G9 is a legit devastating leap forward in technology. Better than anything else out there right now. I carry the 80gr EHP 9mm and 54gr 556

[@rox3725]

Lipstick round.

[@____________838]

@@rox3725interestingly, the 50Beowulf has nearly exact dimensions to a chapstick tube.

[@ravissary79]

​@@addisonnapier2125to my knowledge lehigh diesnt make anything appropriate for this cartridge.

[@robc5082]

G9 guy did a great job. Smart dude with the right attitude - no BS just develop what works best.

[@daviddavis1322]

Dude was a joy to talk to!

[@markofmckinney941]

As an engineer, this approach seems sound…. When you are limited by the sound barrier (for suppressed use), increasing the energy via rotation seems like a great approach . I’m not sure how well barrels will hold up, but I’m intrigued…

[@eriklambert3809]

Seems like the twist rate and heat/friction would eat them quickly, however bullet material could help.

[@TriggaTrey361]

@@eriklambert3809I don’t think most people can afford to burn a barrel out with how expensive 8.6 blackout is regardless

[@edgarburlyman738]

You need a barrel w gradual twist rate for it, that will last longer

[@FFFF-x9i]

That’s not how barrels work

[@cottleful]

8.6 is a fucking waste of .338 bullets. Y’all enjoy buying projectiles for at least $1 a piece for reloaders and $3+ per round for non reloaders. HARD PASS

[@jaw1489]

James’s real laugh is so cute. Lol

[@brianmowry689]

I know I just want to giggle with him and hold him.

[@grits_taste_good415]

He sounds like a Kookaburra lol

[@ImOldGregg]

Gheyyyyyy

[@jaw1489]

@PeterAngles-jq7gr Well that’s not really an apples to apples comparison. The shorts represent confidence one’s choices in how to demonstrate his own masculinity. The laugh represents the young boy inside all men that just wants to have a good time with friends

[@southernmarksman]

It’s at 3:02 and 4:08 for those who want to re-wind and watch it over and over like the Bilbo HRAAH in LOTR.

[@beakmaster69]

Is there any chance G9 will bring that bullet design to the 300 blackout? It won’t have the same rotational energy with a 1 in 5, but I’d still like a round I don’t have to rely on expansion for performance from.

[@bobbressi5414]

I did not think a twist rate that fast was possible. I wonder what that rifling is going to look like after 4 to 5 thousand rounds.

[@Alfeco-dm7uk]

I think you need that twist to stabilize such heavy round. But in the long range, over 250 yards, the bullet drifts to the right due the twist.

[@shanepitzer4323]

Very few will be able to afford that many of those specialty rounds. I think barrel issues won’t be a thing. 🤷‍♂️

[@haroldfarquad6886]

@@shanepitzer4323 Combined with the fact this gun at its best is filling an extremely niche function. It's really cool, but this is like a hog hunting gun or special forces.

[@terryfaugno9242]

Hypothetically, since most 8.6 will be subsonic, barrels should last quite a while. It's the high velocity rounds pushing 3000+ FPS that wear out barrels quickly.

[@pewpewTN]

​@@terryfaugno9242 It's really the amount of powder relative to the bore diameter, which often does correlate to fast rounds.

[@thelittledetailscr7231]

Its so expensive to shoot though. I reload 338 Lapua, and just the projectiles are 90 cents a piece for 300 grain A-tips or bergers.

[@mattandrews8528]

Yeah it is, makes it hard to justify honestly. I’ll bite the bullet eventually and get one, I’m sure I’ll love it like I like .300blk. However I have a .457 Texan LSS CF air rifle to hunt with that’s got a wicked long moderator on it, it’s quiet, and quiet lethal where a 350gr tipped lead slug can take game for me out to some pretty gnarly ranges, definitely farther than my .300blk subs could reach out and touch. Even if I hand loaded my own as well the cost is far more than even ordering my slugs that are about a buck a pop once you figure in either getting new (and thus expensive) brass, making your own which sounds no fun doing one by one, or buy new ammo that you save brass on. And then of course future powder and primers used aren’t free. .300blk by comparison is stupid cheap to load or bulk up on now in 2023, it’s came a long way in around the decade of popularity it’s gained. I got more .300blk firearms than any other caliber, I absolutely love it. But it’s going to be insane how much stepping up from .30 to .338 is going to cost the shooter per shot for just what going from 200 to 300gr rounds? I mean sure it’s significant, but can anyone really afford to make hundreds/thousands of rounds for it? It’s hard for one to even bulk order any 8.6 ammo or brass right now, both in terms of cost and just availability. Idk I remember .300blk being niche and pricy when it first came out post moving on from the stupid .300 AAC/Whisper bullsh*t, I think it’s just going to be another few years or so until everyone can get behind this new cartridge.

[@thelittledetailscr7231]

@mattandrews8528 Agreed. I'm sure 6.8 will be very fun, but 300BO is much more economical. I'm going to save my 338 projectiles for 338 Lapua.

[@MrDoverfield]

Don’t you have to use solid copper bullets because the high rotations per minute or use a barrel twist for only subsonic rounds?

[@thelittledetailscr7231]

@MrDoverfield I think you can use high quality jacketed bullets, but I'm not 100% on that.

[@LRRPFco52]

At one of my LGSs yesterday, I saw a 6" cubed box of used .338 Lapua brass for $238.99.

[@NCrdwlf]

I picked up a 9x39 upper and two cases of ammo before all the russian bans hit and im really interested in this . I like how it runs with and without can . So cool .

[@RobertHall-ef8yf]

Me too bro. Got a micro barrel like a week before the ban.

[@makevelicustoms]

@NCrdwlf sounds cool AF bro, you definitely need to make some vids on that 💪🏻

[@napatora]

that's wild i didn't even know anybody made one in 9x39

[@RobertHall-ef8yf]

KAK still makes them.

[@NCrdwlf]

@@napatora KAK still sells them and there are dedicated uppers still sold on GB . You just can't find the ammo. Russia was the only one making it, unless you do your own reloads .

[@frankopanklaric]

Very artful dodge at 6:00.

[@Cakeyflour]

"Its about 20-30% more energy, but the cost is exponentially higher (even when handloading) and requires a much less common suppressor and a substantially larger much less common platform." No wonder he dodged! 😆

[@RocksJiggle]

I would love to build something in 8.6, just need more availability. So, happy more people are making parts to help proliferation and dissemination.

[@daviddavis1322]

At that show, the Genesis products and Cody displayed complete excellence and momentum. Incredible products and range day with them

[@dustincamello8337]

So the lowers are the same between the 12 gauge and the 8.6? Could you buy 1 lower and just switch uppers? Would you register the lower as an SBR or an SBS?

[@bmstylee]

That is an interesting question about the NFA consideration.

[@offcenterprofilepicture6274]

why not register it as both for the luls

[@davelpz3340]

I used Faxon 7.5 1:5 twist in 300bo for my Ghetto Badger, it’s pretty dang awesome suppressed.

[@Fr1ti4e88]

I’m waiting for PSA to make one

[@MikailStoner]

Genesis is doing some cool stuff. I've never heard of the company until recently

[@MichaelHill-o4t]

BEST GUN I'VE SEEN IN A LONG TIME ⌛️ NICE ONE SUPREME 👍 PRECISION WOULD LOVE ONE BUT THE PRICE MUST BE HIGH 😊😅

[@Wetworks_Arclight]

Well, since Genesis Arms rolled out the GEN-12 shotgun, why not keep with the same nomenclature and call it the GEN-8.6 (eight-six)?

[@DanDannyDanielleBob]

8.6 might make the mdrx micro worthwhile

[@lefunnyN1]

would be cool to see an integrally suppressed mp5sd style upper

[@pablo4yu]

Dude i am NOT going on no list just for a upper💀😂 shit i make my own quieters anyways fuck i look like being on a registry💀😂

[@bloodking73]

@@pablo4yu glowing fed boi

[@bravo6959]

@@pablo4yubright as the sun

[@indoorkite651]

@@pablo4yu nobody in your dog killing squad needs NVGs with you around

[@blackstone1a]

@@pablo4yuFed detected

[@rawknbearbell7032]

The Genesis guys are top shelf

[@CoryHobbs2178]

Could you imagine getting hit with an 8.6 blackout? Hooooly shiiiiit

[@CoryHobbs2178]

@@Rubeless the amount of energy is pretty crazy though

[@LrdBxRck]

Their shotgun around $4,500 and this is pretty much a barrel swap so I expect around the same price. Edit: sorry thought it was based off of the dracarys so around $3000.

[@brighthought11]

huh!? I got their gen12 for $2900

[@spartancrown]

Last time I was looking at their shotgun it was under $3k

[@ChristianAnarchist904]

I got mine for 3k

[@voteholyk]

They should name that gun the "pinkie" if that is the ammo it is gonna shoot.🤣 That 1 in3 twist makes the round like a drill bit.

[@MadMagyar13]

50 BMG will be next for one of these treatments. It’ll be something like 18x99mm

[@johnnyshanksalot8358]

Standardizing & popularizing 510 whisper, call it 500blk or wtv.

[@CIA_Alien]

Funny you say that. A company has an AR bolt upper shooting .50 BMG w/ a 18" barrel suppressed LOL.

[@chrismartinez8393]

What about the 338 Spector in a AR 15 platform

[@limitlessbydesign]

Ordered a gen 12 in march, still waiting. Frown. It is now 9/27

[@thelittledetailscr7231]

I'm sure it will be worth the wait. Those things look bad ass.

[@CIA_Alien]

Who'd you order through? I got mine from 'Palm Beach Tactical' and they get fresh orders of them every 2-3 weeks. Call them up and ask for Manny. He will square you away.

[@cw7legionofpewrights596]

I overlooked it completely, wait till a few years on the 8.6 🤷‍♂️. Cost of ammo currently. Definitely very very interesting

[@coltonmathews1290]

Lehigh defense needs to make some projectiles for this caliber with those magic flutes, since that particular projectile depends on fast twist rate to do damage

[@highdesertdrew1844]

At 1080FPS with a 1:3 twist, the projectile is rotating at a theoretical 259200 RPM, a 308 at 2800FPS with a 1:10 twist is doing 201600RPM, and a 556 at 3200FPS with a 1:7 is doing 329142RPM. While rotational energy is part of the total energy of the system here, I'm not sure it's a valuable part of the total energy here, especially with a subsonic bullet, as there is more wetted surface, so technically air resistance is going to bleed off that rotational energy. This is how some SRTA bullets work (they have fins to catch the air to cause spin, and stability to decay, until they simply tumble). I realize this is a short-range cartridge, and a big-bore subsonic (a-la .458 socom) is hella neat, but the constant focus on rotational energy causing wounding seems misplaced.

[@SpaceCadebt]

You have to take into account that it’s a much heavier and larger round spinning at that speed so it has far more inertia. That will translate to greater centrifugal energy. It may not spin as fast as 5.56 but there is a whole lot more of it spinning, and if you watch a test with ballistic gel boy does it make a huge difference.

[@AverageGunPerson]

Why wouldnt there be a "constant focus" on rotation energy, in a sbr cartridge designed around shooting 2" long copper bullets out of 8-12" barrels? Rotational energy doesnt "bleed off" at nearly the rate you are talking about. Its known for having a slow decay, many traditional assumptions don't apply within the sphere of subsonics & high spin in particular. That's been spoken about in passing within interviews Outdated energy comparisons which are rooted in cup&core apples to apples bullet comparisons don't work well here in the land of case hardened copper. A copper flower will do 5 full twists, that's a ton of surface area on an expanded 338 cal projectile. Don't forget this video features the G9 bullet which works on fluid dynamics... a completely different principle.

[@highdesertdrew1844]

@@AverageGunPerson This has all been rendered moot, the 338 ARC is here.

[@AverageGunPerson]

@@highdesertdrew1844 different beasts. The ARC is a subsonic-oriented cartridge. I can't imagine more than 330-350gr being upper limit with new powders. Im getting one, but with a custom 1:6 twist barrel, so it can use 338 spectre bullets. 125-300gr range for solid copper It doesn't compete with the supersonics, and it only competes with the subsonics to a point. Lighter stuff can be more accurate though, so its a trade off

[@highdesertdrew1844]

@@AverageGunPerson I really consider fast twist to be sub-optimal, both for bullet construction requirements, accuracy, barrel life, etc. I've spent a lot of time with 9x39, by itself I don't think it's a great system, but a western analog based on .375" bullets would be very comparable, even a .357/.358 would be a better option than heavy-for-caliber fast twist sub/super combos.

[@joshuaheart2764]

Hope more ppl buy this so maybe they'll sell the Gen 12 a little cheaper. I dream about the Gen 12.

[@BettyWhite256]

I want that Pdw brace

[@genericadjectivenounname9001]

Every kinetic energy calculation that people see regularly for projectiles is just looking at the linear energy. There was definitely a lot of confusion over why a round with such low linear energy was getting buzz, but everyone has been out of school for so long that it seems like every youtube vid was folks completely ignoring conservation of energy. Energy is energy. If all that gunpowder is going into the bullet, and the bullet isn't leaving the target, it all had to transfer over somehow. And that somehow is rotational energy. It's functionally the same equation as linear energy, so the square of your angular velocity gets you a lot of joules. I also haven't used that since I got out of school so I had to look the equation up. Very cool idea, excited for 2033 when it doesn't cost $5,000 to shoot the caliber.

[@snak-s7952]

Sold! January can't come soon enough. Hope we make it, I need this PDW.

[@davidc.9933]

Dude is an Ace. Great job, brother.

[@LyleH-13]

So they didnt even mean to but tbis sorta teased the first on the industry upper receiver compatible with aero m5 308 platform that doesnt have a forward assist.

[@Just_a_guy093]

after just watching your video on the boom box i must say i think the reason q isnt doing the boom box is bc they sold it to these guys.. this thing looks exactly like the boom box

[@cartap22]

6 am my time rn Yee where ya at?

[@Gl0ckb1te]

Florida

[@dominiqueB777]

Az

[@UXB1000]

9 pm on the other side of the globe.

[@kevf500]

How weigh is it around 6.5 as it looks very light , that would be great

[@georgelstuart]

How about a link to the "boom box" video? I went to your video library and scrolled back almost a year, couldn't find anything.

[@jrstoelting]

It’s not on the show channel. It’s on the their regular channel

[@jrstoelting]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/eYHaZmOqqsh2bNEsi=lEwueuSUjWsBPTmU

[@pswancey81]

I have a Mini Fix in 8.6. and can’t wait for more 8.6 BO ammo to hit the market!!!

[@shadowrizhik]

Bear gun?

[@IMPACTSHOOTING]

8.6BLK is 338, not .308

[@leauxfi673]

So are you telling me, we can buy a gen 12 lets say 7.5 or 10 inch version.... and easily convert it over to 8.6 by swapping the upper and barrel? whats the cost on that pairing?

[@indianerjoners1533]

Got my hands on a 8" Gorilla Firearms GF-10, haven't seen anything on it but it has been a blast to shoot. Just patiently waiting for my Q Short Chop to clear so I can mount it on that Cherry Bomb that came with it.

[@____________838]

Did I miss it somewhere, or is this a Gas Piston system or Direct Impingement?

[@fastr144]

with that fast of a twist rate, whats the spin drift on that round?

[@eamonshields2754]

Badass Rifle 🇺🇸

[@ryanwright2538]

This is a strong contender for my first sbr/sbs

[@thundercatt5265]

That's a good armor piercing round

[@clayowens4176]

Can u change out the 8.6 upper with the 12 gauge versions lower receiver

[@onxy4549]

8.6, the round that cuts through targets like butter

[@Helfirearms]

1:48 a 1oz 12 gauge slug is like 50% more weight than heavy 338 bullets. You want to beat out the 8.6 on every front and be about as heavy as a 12 gauge slug than you are after 375 raptor

[@johnnyshanksalot8358]

Yeah, it's as heavy as a 12g slug but slower so not equal. Heavier 458 socom subs (plus a half dozen similar loadings, 45/70, etc) are though.

[@mdredheadguy1979]

1st question: is that a brace or butt stock on tgat gun? 2nd question: who makes it?

[@christopherdolan7330]

I think the 8.6 Blk zipped straight through something like 36" of ballistic gel when Garand Thumb tested it. I know over-penetration is considered fudd lore, but I would not use 8.6 Blk within a mile of any friendly targets.

[@aetius9]

That was a specific copper hunting round designed for max penetration on large animals.

[@davidvironet6344]

That was insane on those ballistic blocks. He was hitting 250-300 yard target.

[@spdcrzy]

Holy shit what is that sight and mount?! It's SO cool!

[@ProjectD13X]

>Be saving up to buy NODS >See this video come into my feed I don't need it, I don't need it.... I definitely don't need it...

[@ketononeill8898]

You're right. Get the NODS, amigo. If it fizzles out you'll have dodged a bullet (lol). If not, it'll still be here

[@gfin4576]

3:00 me (a goblin) when the wizard (loser) hits me with that dollar store fireball scroll.

[@tomahawk5118]

The mailbox looks great on the rifle!

[@michelemantovani9718]

When in Italy?

[@TheWeekendShooter308]

Can't wait to build one once there's more parts on the market next year

[@phillip6919851]

It is a very interesting product. The only problem is it doesn’t come with a regular stock

[@Jeff.78]

There is no problem. The PDW "stock" is sufficient for its intended role.

[@Mike-yy4ll]

Is it small frame like Ruger SFAR/POF Revolution or stardard AR-10 size?

[@nealgold8442]

Great video and very informative.

[@__BERSERKER__]

The “Hyena” is an animal that packs a huge bite into a smallish package.

[@joelatkinson2080]

Another great video!!!

[@brians5415]

James has gone all Lewis Litt! Nice!

[@realitycheck4158]

I cant afford Wendys, new caliber sounds great!!

[@Romthagod]

what stock is that?

[@DragonTorquemovies]

Call it the Spinosorour or the Mega bird, The Bell (Liberty Bell)

[@taetaedub9873]

Release date?

[@JinKee]

8.6 belt fed, wen?

[@chiefchaos97]

I assume the ammo is just as or more expensive than 300 blackout

[@AndreC240]

Gonna need a progressive twist barrel for these things.

[@wigon]

The only problem I see with this round is the same problem I have with .300 blackout. Both have massive over-penetration no matter what bullet-type is used. I always tell people to stick to 55 grain 5.56mm soft point, 9mm JHP, 5.7x28 (SS197SR), .22 magnum, .38 special, .380, or #4 buckshot (12 gauge) for home defense otherwise you're going to be sending rounds into your neighbor's house if you have to use that firearm for home defense. Maybe if you live out in the country that would be fine, but personally I'd not want to be responsible for killing or wounding a neighbor while defending myself. Anyone who thinks they won't miss a moving target (that may be shooting back) with some of their shots, is absolutely delusional. I only see this round useful for perhaps military Special Operations applications. Otherwise any police department using ammo like this is just begging for a lawsuit when a stray round kills or injures someone.

[@wigon]

​@@oldandbankrupt Yup. I never take my 300 blackout upper to shoot alongside my 5.56mm uppers. Also I keep my .300 blackout magazines labelled and only used for .300 blackout. Aside from that I never load 5.56mm magazines with any .300 blackout anywhere close to them. But like you said, it only takes one mistake and KABOOM! But the place where this problem usually happens is that the range where ammo and magazines get more easily mixed up when people get distracted.

[@bigvaxmeanie925]

​@@oldandbankruptsounds like some people dont know how to safely operate a gun. I dont put regular gas in a high performance car, dont put the wrong caliber in your ar15. If they are too lazy to do that, its on them for failing basic gun safety

[@bigvaxmeanie925]

@@oldandbankrupt take some self responsibility if you blow up your 5.56 rifle because you didn't pay attention when you fed it 300blk. No one to blame but your self.

[@manlystuffs4197]

What velocities can this bullet reach out of various barrel lengths though?

[@bigvaxmeanie925]

Depends if you are using subsonic ammo or not

[@chrisroberts3963]

Does the 8.6 big drop at distance like the 300 blackout does?

[@Dirty2Clean1980]

Noway you can drop a bison at 300 to 400 yards out of an 8" or 9" barrel so imagi g a 12 or 14 inch barrel. Is quieter than 300 blk, and you can hit 1 moa at 300 yrds as well. It's my favorite new caliber by far. This is going to be my main do it all sbr.

[@davidphillips8674]

Looks like we the next CQB weapon for DEVGRU and CAG

[@thelurker9472]

The g9 red rocket. There you go.

[@rnbspowa7of69]

There is no substitution for displacement.

[@hardgoodbye]

G9 Rep "I'll try spinning, that's a good trick."

[@DJWOLFIExx]

This should not be called a PDW this should be called a - POW- Personal Offence Weapon.

[@YungFudd1776]

Is this round to defeat a cavalry charge in a tactical rifle??? Like, 300 black subs are SUPER nasty. Why the 8.6? Bears? Why not 12 gauge slugs or just .308?? I'm confused what this offers.

[@bobborlog1677]

I just want a ruger ranch and cva scout in 8.6

[@noname2-190]

Still not sold on the 8.6 its a cool idea but i have yet to the see terminal performance on a living creature so...

[@mumblety96]

Can somebody please make an affordably priced, SHORT 8.6 piston rifle?

[@schlemihlrosenzweig3780]

Like Robinson Armament with a 8.6 Conversion for their XCR-M.

[@schlemihlrosenzweig3780]

Or Desert Tech for their MDR.

[@mumblety96]

@@schlemihlrosenzweig3780 Thanks - just now seeing your recommendations!

[@case_in_point]

How about the Genesis 86 Mongoose? Small package, lots of damage.

[@BeeHiverson]

How about the 8.6 SPANKER

[@CptFUNK1]

Call it the Queef Ten8six

[@robertrabensohn3329]

I am still waiting vor a m240 b in 8.6

[@Statusinator]

Anyone recognize the tailcap on that weapon-light?

[@edenironworks2]

It's a Cloud Defensive Rein. It's a propriety tail cap/tape switch, buts it's pretty good.

[@jaredlostetter265]

I think they should name it “controversy” after James’ favorite #4

[@user-rw7xd7qy3j]

It looked like James was in love ❤

[@ImThinking3]

Call it the sub-woofer! Not my idea but I can't find the guy's name who said it!

[@CraigThomas2070]

Call it the Wooly Mammoth 🦣

[@SuicidalRevolver]

Welp it's official, G9DD is now the official name for 8.6mm.

[@tacrollfives2716]

Call it the "Bolt Thrower"

[@Burner_1-one]

Kinda reminds me of the kac pdw

[@Steve-yo4ld]

A .308 lower and a .338 upper, why not use an existing round like the .338 Federal and tweak the round? A 1 in 3 twist seems like it'll burn out pretty fast! "A point of diminishing return"

[@vicdiaz5180]

Defeats the purpose of the quietness for subsonic. Also 1:3 twist with this round r delivers great power

[@Steve-yo4ld]

@@vicdiaz5180 My point is that they could have done the same with a round that already exist! It's not like they couldn't have developed a .338 Federal Subsonic! And, super fast twists have a very short barrel life! Hell, they could have built around the .375 JDJ if they want super heavy Subsonic!✌️

[@me2ontube]

​@@Steve-yo4ldwhen I was contemplating 458 socom I opted for 338 federal but had this 8.6 been around I'd have probably chosen it for the subsonic advantage

[@Steve-yo4ld]

@@me2ontube You can make/create a Subsonic round/load for any caliber!👍

[@me2ontube]

@@Steve-yo4ld maybe you can but I buy what I find in the store

[@Mitsurugi2424]

Don't see a reason to go for this over 300blk unless you just have loads of money laying around and want diminishing returns.

[@fire_tower]

Hunting large game, 300 blk maybe sufficient for deer in the South East but probably not suitable for bear or larger deer while subsonic.

[@TheAsheybabe89]

​@@fire_towerthis shit would be equally dumb for hunting any big game within the US that a 30-30 class round like super subsonic 300 bo cant handle. The obsession with subsonic for basic hunting is idiotic. Animals will still hear it 😂

[@jrstoelting]

@@TheAsheybabe89I don’t think you’re worried about the long term effects of hearing loss on the deer when hunting.

[@TheAsheybabe89]

@@jrstoelting with no more shots than are fired by the average deer hunter, I should expect that they suffer far more hearing damage on their way there in their truck that more often than not has louder nonstock exhaust. Or from the ATV that they use hunting. 1-4 shots of 308 (even without any hearing protection) isn't all that big of a deal.