Installing SIPs On Two Timber Frame Buildings | Shelter Builds a Country Home & Garage | Ep. 4

[@ShelterInstitute]

Take your first (FREE!) step into timber framing with our Online Mini Course - onlinecourses.shelterinstitute.com/courses/free?

[@tedfritsch3340]

That makes so much sense to put that Gypsum in first.

[@ShelterInstitute]

We think so!

[@maxwheeler8387]

What happens when it rains

[@chrishayes8197]

Satisfying to see the attention to small details. Good camera work at 10:40 to show joints and seams getting snug.

[@BryanNichols]

I skipped smashing the like button and went ahead and meat-hooked it.

[@jackwhite3947]

Definitely the most effective way to hoist sips onto a structure. And to smash buttons , I guess.

[@storjoel]

Yours is the only channel that I actually set up notifications for. Hard knowledge and substance is a premium. Thanks!

[@ShelterInstitute]

Thank you, that is very much appreciated

[@jamesryan1258]

Literally jumped up and down when I got my email notificatin today. Thank you so much for making and posting this.

[@michaeldavidson2290]

Your videos are really informative and well produced. I really enjoy watching them.

[@ShelterInstitute]

Thank you! Mesa Media handles all of our production, they are incredible! mesamedia.com/

[@dystopiandream7134]

Love these videos! The crew dynamic, the way it's recorded, and the detailed explanations are just phenomenal. I feel like I could now confidently screw up a timber frame house.

[@rmwilliams88]

The shot of racking the nails in the nail gun is super satisfying. I’m loving this series, please do more of them. Great work!

[@thorisian]

Really appreciate these videos and enjoy watching the progression of this build. I really enjoy your style of building and hope I can tap into that in the next year or so by taking either the online course or the in person course. Thanks for all you do!

[@ShelterInstitute]

Thank you for watching!

[@gallachobaer]

Very interesting, it’s amazing how fast you got everything up!

[@jackwhite3947]

Sips have been around sence ,at least the 60ties

[@jefflabrozzi9592]

Great video. I liked the SIP inspector really knowledgeable.

[@chrisscutt4197]

Well done team!

[@АлександрКузьмин-х9б]

Thank you so much for making and posting this.

[@ShelterInstitute]

Thank you for watching!

[@MidnightMaker]

Thanks for making my Saturday night something more educational than re-watching Avengers or Lord of the Rings. Love you guys. My dream is to build timber frame structures. Would love to work for you. Take care...

[@СидоровКассир-л6ф]

Отличная работа, парни! Мы в России тоже решаем многие проблемы на стройке с помощью кувалды, она же Марья Ивановна, она же кувалдометр. Успехов Вам, и поменьше дождей в сезон стройки!

[@Grunt49]

Well organized.

[@alexparadi522]

I'm wondering if there are more environmentally friendly insulation options over the SIP walls with all that closed-cell foam?

[@MTulak]

What do you use as a vapour barrier?

[@ShelterInstitute]

We do not install a vapor barrier, it is not within our scope of work. The trades that come in after we leave are in charge of that.

[@leozmaxwelljilliumz3360]

I was curious about the rigidity of the walls between the bents. I know its secured well , but wondering if there is any flex in the walls since it's just osb and expanded polystyrene. Cant wait to see the next episode!

[@jackwhite3947]

Stronger than a stick built, that's a stud construction, wall by far.

[@jackwhite3947]

Remember there's two layers of OSB . And the polystyrene is rigid . It acts as a webbing between the two skins . There's other products / foams that are better . These are stronger than 2/4 's or 2/6 , stick frame construction . And twice as efficient as far as insulation goes .

[@2NIWRAD2]

I hated the smell when burning SIPs out. Haha one thing I'm happy I'll never have to smell again.

[@biggregg5]

Have you guys experimented with or have any opinions about SIPs made of styro-aircrete or walls made of styro-aircrete in general?

[@jackwhite3947]

I haven't seen anything on styro-aircrete ? But I have seen polyurethane. It does have better insulating performance than polystyrene.

[@biggregg5]

@@jackwhite3947 A couple years ago I came across a KZbin DIY contingent that were doing aircrete.....a slurry of Portland cement and dense soap suds made from a homemade or commercial foam cannon. It's a very good product if done right, but my understanding is that it's extremely fickled, and just as soon as you think you've got the technique perfected, something goes wrong. Anyway, people have been adding chopped up Styrofoam, and it makes it much easier to get the parameters right to produce a consistent product. Some people will put it in a mold, let it dry and put a product over it to give it strength or do it like these polystyrene SIPs and sandwich it between OSB. The advantage over PU is that it's much, much less expensive. I'm not sure how it works out with building codes in various states.

[@jackwhite3947]

@@biggregg5 sounds like a concept I saw years back , they were using fly-ash , with cement. As an insulating component. The styrofoam sounds like a good plan , depending on the ratio of the mix and the consistency. My guess is that there's is some code written for this , because of the use of concrete. Sandwiching it , or using something as a form would be a big improvement , in my opinion. But that brings me back to question what was the purpose of the additive to the concrete . If the answer was insulation . Well that's a lot of work , and is it better than a sip or an ICF ? You mentioned , cheaper . I would ask some other questions also . What about longevity , sustainability , maintenance . Some of those answers will effect the budget . If you save on the cost of materials and construction and labor upfront , to get a product that isn't saving you money over the life of the product . By product in mean housing. By money I mean energy. What did you save . Here is another one . As a contractor , or developer or investor , what can you build that the consumer will buy. Here's one one more . If you build it , what will you do with it when you don't need it ,or you need to move ? I think somewhere in this reality we live in there are answers . If I had all of them , I'd miss manage them and still be stuck with something I don't like .

[@biggregg5]

@@jackwhite3947 Yes....essentially, that's why I'm asking these guys. At this point, I'm a KZbin surfer, and interested in novel DIY ideas. Check out Stephen Williams channel. He seems to be a pretty sharp guy that is a fan of the concept for lots of reasons. Maybe start there if you want.

[@jackwhite3947]

@@biggregg5 thanks I'll check it out. Lots of new stuff to ponder.

[@mattbrew11]

Why do these panels require all the trimming and customization but the panels from Eco-Panels of Tennessee do not?

[@jackwhite3947]

Also why use splines and reseal each sip joint when you can do it once ,and forget. There is a difference with the type of insulating foam . Not the same R value , and putting all the holes in the outside of the panels , means a greater chance something gets missed . Probably the biggest reason for the adjustment is that the corners are not set up the same

[@clwnthr]

To avoid mold/fungus one would need to use only breathable materials from the very inside to the very outside. I.e. everything, including no plastic paint etc. The materials used in this video (foams, glued wood (OSB/SIPS), etc.) are anything but breathable, thus will not make for a healthy home. Though timber-frame houses are certainly both great and beautiful, and the Shelter Institute is otherwise doing an amazing job with both these buildings and videos. Cheers all.

[@guywhitworth5764]

@clwnthr I had the exact same thought. Then as mentioned at 25:12, after the electrician has finished the wiring, they install a water resistant barrier (WRB). This is just asking for condensation, and the resultant germination of mold and fungus spores. Straw bale or hempcrete walls would be ideal. What other breathable wall materials do you think would complement a timber frame?

[@clwnthr]

​@@guywhitworth5764 Good suggestions. One could also use e.g. clay or cob walls/"bricks" - but that might not be the first choice with a timber-frame. Or simply wood fibre insulation and wood fibre sheets/slabs covered with wooden boards on the outside. There are a lot of options, actually, though they vary somewhat in breathability of course. So a healthy house also needs some kind of air vent (not powered, though), either in the windows or by a simple whole and vent in the walls in the different rooms. Simply to support the houses' breathability when there's being created too much humidity inside and windows are not being opened enough. And yes, WRBs are definitely a disease trap in a brand new house. Sad that people think that a house built this way could ever be a healthy living environment.

[@truist7]

Another great video! I’m wondering what the blue/green SIPs are?

[@andrewburke7173]

A few comments... first, kudos to Shelter for being brave enough to reveal their people and processes and thinking, warts and all. This is helpful for all of us. Given the complexities and tradeoffs inherent in any such complex operation, letting the world see behind the curtain is incredibly valuable. That said.. I sure wish you didn't glorify the meat hook solution as much as you do - it's so destructive and surely there are better solutions! Also, at 6:16 there sure seems like there's a bad misalignment of panels. Finally, there seems to be lack of mastic, but maybe that's just an editing issue. Thank you again.

[@jedgurley]

Have y'all had any cracking or splits in the gypsum with this setup over the years?

[@bigsavagedaddy5960]

I’m new to timber framing but not new to woodworking or traditional joinery. I have to say I am not thrilled about the idea of these SIPs. How are heavy things (heavy upper cabinets, for example) hung on the walls? I feel the best method would be to incorporate traditional framing within the timber frame structure and leave the inside beams exposed. With traditional framing, I worry about the walls connected to the frame moving with the Timbers and causing cracks in the windows and/or drywall. Still not settled on how I’m going to build our house, but at the moment I’m leaning toward a hybrid timber frame/traditional framed home with stone fireplaces and plenty of tongue and groove ceilings and walls.

[@michaelr2526]

Where’s the construction adhesive you show in your how-to video?

[@danielrodhart]

Great videos! Just curious. What is the components/cladding wind pressure capacity of the sip panels?

[@jackwhite3947]

Better than stick built.

[@harleybaker8548]

After the SIPs install, does the gypsum then get screwed/nailed into the inside of the SIPs panel?

[@anthonydesisto2328]

Yes at 19:25

[@jackwhite3947]

Until you have to wire the home . And running the electrical from the outside , or inside , without chase's already in the panels ? Sound like a lot of work . There's a better way .

[@ohwowthatsgood]

@@jackwhite3947 there are chases already in the panels.

[@Tanicly69]

🙌🙌

[@BryanNichols]

The question I have is: how many panels have you ripped the meat hooks out over the years ?? 😅

[@jackwhite3947]

Don't make sence to me either.

[@dennis2376]

Why is some panels are green. Thank you and have a great day.

[@lhcommons]

When the OSB is manufactured, it is stacked into a bundle maybe four feet high, and the top panel is painted. So those green panels were just the top panel in a bundle.

[@dennis2376]

@@lhcommons Thank you.

[@FITZIEBLUE]

now i get it.

[@jedgurley]

Don't see why not spray foam in the groove before assembly, the stuff expands . Can even get a slower expanding foam if it's time you are worried about. Save you some drilling.

[@jackwhite3947]

I don't know why they still use this type of panel . There's a better product available.

[@adrienpetersen]

@@jackwhite3947 What are the better panels you are referring to?

[@jackwhite3947]

@@adrienpetersen there's lots of other panel companies . Now I don't know everything but . Well the product I was referring to was . ICS Eco Sips. A sip manufacturing company in ft Collins Colorado. I think that they have an affiliate in Tennessee. What's the difference ? The way these panels go together is so much easier . And you can seal the panel just before it's installed. No shims no drilling no foam no screws to attach the panels together. Sound like you could save some time and maybe product going into each panel . Oh and thy use polyurethane instead of polystyrene. Is there a difference , well, Yes . As far as I know they don't make timber frames . But they do cover them . As well as conventional construction , without stick built walls or roofs . They do the complete package for whatever you want . Sips More than meet code for construction of all types . They just seem to showcase them with timber framers, because they don't inclose the frame .

[@bbbonesss]

Who do you source your SIPs from in Rhode Island please?

[@jackwhite3947]

Those are not the best sips to use . Way too much work involved in putting them up .

[@bbbonesss]

@jack white who do you recommend? I live in RI so was curious where Shelter sources them

[@jackwhite3947]

@@bbbonesss Eco sips in Colorado or Tennessee. A much better product. I have visited the Colorado location , as I live nearby . They both deliver country wide .

[@johncomeroski8427]

Probably used branch River in Rhode Island, I have built two structures from them, reasonable pricing.

[@alabamalowlife]

@@johncomeroski8427you’re right. In one scene they showed the blueprint closely enough that I could make out Branch River Plastic

[@travdad76]

Yeah, yeah, yea, but how you get the sound to match up with the slowmo. For the nailing it’s just normal nail gun sound spaced to the video but for drilling and other stuff that’s not a single impact the length of sound will not match the length of video. Maybe it just an editing tool. Anyway back to eating timber framing.

[@2andrea]

They look like ice cream sandwiches.

[@AndyFromm]

Thanks, now I need an ice cream sandwich...

[@paulo7200]

Why not use some type of engineered timber framing members to avoid movement relative to the SIP panels? Using drywall as a work around to this issue makes me squeamish, I'd like my house to be more of a factory precise manufactured product out of the gate.

[@jackwhite3947]

Take a look at ICS , Eco sips of Colorado. A better product as far as sips go . Engineered timbers ??? Not Shure what you are referring to . Glue lams maybe? The dry wall won't stop any movement . Eco sips have a much better ( manufactured ) product. Starting with the corners .

[@paulo7200]

@@jackwhite3947 In a past video, Shelter explained that they drywall the SIP panels before installation so that when greenish timbers shrink and settle, it avoids having to repair / replace drywall abutted to shrinking timber. It's a fair solution, but I'd prefer to find a more dry or stable timber system. Also, thanks for the info on eco!

[@jackwhite3947]

@@paulo7200 I didn't see that video . I don't have all the answers about timber frame construction . These guys are pretty good as far as timber framers. I think the panels are suspect. But I did see and hear them say that there were chases already cut in the panels . The company I referred to has a different approach the problem of keeping things square. I think the corners are a great idea . And the way they connect is much better in my opinion. I did see a video on the use of green , or dry timbers . Dry timbers are more expensive, and harder to get in a timely manner is my guess . I'm thinking that's what the concern was , involving movement . The dry wall is not cut in on the inside of the frame , and is put up in whole sheets because there's less seams and joints to fix is probably right and a good idea ???

[@garrettscott4094]

I understand the benefits of SIPs but do you ever use any other methods? Specifically products that off gass less?

[@jackwhite3947]

How much do sips off gass.?

[@garrettscott4094]

@@jackwhite3947 it depends when they were made and with what material. But I guess off gassing is not really my concern. More "environmentally friendly" is more of my concern. Wool, mineral wool, and dense packed fiberglass or cellulose all have a lower CO2 footprint.

[@jackwhite3947]

@@garrettscott4094 really, I'll have to take a closer look at the co2 information on sips . What part of the product or the process is the problem?

[@garrettscott4094]

@@jackwhite3947 if I am not mistaken the majority is during the manufacturing process, and varies based on adhesives and the type of "foam" being used.

[@jackwhite3947]

@@garrettscott4094 hey : Just Googled Sips and Co2. And quickly came across This study that was presented at the climate change summit in Paris recently. International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health . Now , I do have a concern for public health , and products that off gass can be a problem . There's been quite a bit of research done on off gassing . I don't know all of it . This presentation addressed several aspects of the different types of construction. Sips , brick and concrete , timber frame , and steel . Now the timber that is reported on here is not what I would can a timber frame. More likely it's a stick built home . And the steel would refer to the same type of housing . This report sites rual residential construction, and some urban development. No multifamily highrise sardine homes. Mostly single family homes . This study was conducted in China . And there's a lot of information on how they arrived at there conclusions . And what formulas and other complete B..S sited in this study . BUT unless you are talking about a sip that was manufactured 20 or 30 years ago , or the company that's manufacturing them , just doesn't have any ethics at all . I would venture to bet that if anyone had an argument about co2 or anything environmental after reading this .They have some other motivation for their point of view. The study points out WHAT most people in the construction trades already know. The only reasons why people don't choose sips over other construction methods is information , misinformation , cost or both . That's not to say that every one wants or needs to build with Sips . So if you want to use or sell or promote other types of insulation , go for it . But to say Sip's are not environmentally friendly??? That statement would be false . And all hippie's , tree huggers , environmental activists , climate change science believers , International environmental Research and Public Health Chinese Government official persons , can all agree that according to the study the environment would be better , the homes would be better , and all the world would be a better place if sips were used more often .

[@joshuacoleman6294]

Interesting to see all this put together, and it's inspiring to see how different buildings are created. But oof, all that Styrofoam flying around. Styrofoam pollution is an odd trigger of mine. I cringe every time I watch it being cut and drilled through. That's the benefit to many other forms of insulation: they aren't a environmental nightmare.

[@josephlathrop1914]

@Shelter Institute Why does it always seem you build with sips?

[@jackwhite3947]

Why don't you?

[@josephlathrop1914]

@@jackwhite3947 I don't teach but I've seen in colonial Williamsburg examples of studs let in to timber framing that allows for modern insulation of other types

[@jackwhite3947]

@@josephlathrop1914 I think I've seen what you're talking about. Stick built walls with insulation ,foam sprayed and sealed in place . Ray-Core , has a product that works like that . The reason that sips work better , is the insulation is rigid and it completely isolates the inside from the outside. Stick built walls connect , bridge or conduct from the inside to the outside . The sip walls are stronger than stick built construction and no gaps or bridging. The reason sips were are used in the first place is the superior insulation , and R-value

[@josephlathrop1914]

@@jackwhite3947 Not what im talking about. Imagine Building your Timber frame as you normaly would with a Sill. Now cut a mortis in the sill every 16 inches on center as with stick built construction spacing, instead of nailing your studs in place at the top and bottom cut the bottom of the stud into a tennon to fit the mortis and at the top of the stud cut a 45 degree notch in the beam on the exterior corner above, cutting the top of the stud to match. one Screw, Nail or Peg to secures each stud in place. and allows for useing Rolled or Batten Insulation between the studs.

[@jackwhite3947]

@@josephlathrop1914 you got me there , As far as the studs and or cutting goes . But that would defeat the purpose or sips . Witch is insulation, to start with . Not to mention ease of construction. But if it works and meat code and your satisfied. Good on ya.

[@codyironworks307]

To much freekin money

[@royormonde3682]

"They like to mix up the panels so the first couple hours are spent looking for what you need".....come on really? They place the panels in a bundle best suited for shipping, they are all right there on sight and no one "liked" that you had to look for what you needed.

[@gammaraymonkey]

Calm down