Installing Windows NT on the '90s Mystery PC but Everything Goes Wrong...

Get a free $100 credit when you sign up for a new Linode account at linode.com/michaelmjd
Thanks to Linode for sponsoring this video!
Today we're revisiting the '90s Mystery PC that was donated to me a few months ago. I need to wipe the hard drive in this thing, but turns out I may not have to because everything took a turn for the worse.
Unboxing: • Unboxing a '90s Myster...
Followup Part 1: • Booting Up and Explori...
● Gear I use to make these videos: www.kit.co/mjd
Camera: amzn.to/3ipyKc5
Tripod: amzn.to/3pqxycn
Microphone: amzn.to/35UbkXb
Editing Software (Premiere): amzn.to/39kawfS
Thumbnail Editor (Photoshop): amzn.to/3lVqVN6
● Affiliate Links (these links will earn me a commission if you purchase something through them at no additional cost to you):
Get a FREE 30-DAY TRIAL of Amazon Prime: amzn.to/2xVmMB3
Get 2 FREE Audiobooks with Audible: amzn.to/2Ovylse
Try Twitch Prime for FREE: amzn.to/33g6vaa
Amazon: www.amazon.com/?tag=teammjd-20
● Follow Me:
Twitter: / mjdtweets
Instagram: / mjdmichael
● Music/Credits:
Background Music:
"Supreme", "A Brand New Start" and "Rest" from the KZbin Audio Library
"Mining by Moonlight", "AcidJazz" and "Spy Groove", by Kevin MacLeod of www.incompetech.com
Outro Music: Silent Partner - Bet On It
Source: KZbin Audio Library
Amazon Affiliate Notice: I am a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. All Amazon links that I provide will use my affiliate code with Amazon.
Some materials in this video are used under Section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976, which allows "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, commenting, news reporting, teaching, and research.
#MichaelMJD #Windows98 #VintageComputing

[@iiTsFaded_]

“You’re a hard drive, you don’t get to decide if you’re ready” 😂

[@vlsaurus1700]

oh hi

[@iiTsFaded_]

@@vlsaurus1700 hey

[@ilektrokioydio]

hi

[@turtleburger200]

F for the hard drive 😔

[@ilektrokioydio]

@@turtleburger200 F :)

[@hhhpestock951]

A bunch of old USB drives started a band, but people today think they're lame. They only had 1 gig.

[@Lawbish96]

This is gold

[@NitroDubzzz]

Nice

[@cubeheadexists]

legitimately good

[@JimOkurku_]

been loving this "but everything goes wrong" series, because it's 100% what the channel was built up from. We all experience issues over and over and can't find a solution until you realize you have to click 1 button. And this channel repressends all of that stress in 10 minutes for regular a regular everyday joe to understand. Love your videos, Keep it up Michael.

[@kevinwong_2016]

Gay

[@SunIsLost]

Yes

[@anon_y_mousse]

I think you mean 38:15 not 10.

[@yt_user1772]

@@anon_y_mousse bruh man cmon it feels as if you watch a 10 minutes video.

[@yt_user1772]

Click 1 button.. sure

[@juanignacioaschura9437]

10:30 Old PCs relied more on the 5v and 3.3v Rails for most of the power, with 12v Supplemental power being a thing only after 2004 with the EPS Connector. No modern PSU has enough amperage in those rails because nowadays, almost everything is fed through 12v, with only SATA, USB, and some Fan Controllers still relying on 5v and 3.3v; heck, the one reason why Berg Connectors (Floppy Connectors) still appear on modern PSUs, is because some fan hubs and Liquid Cooling pumps use the connector. If it isn't a capacitor issue, the issue has to do with how modern computers are powered compared to older ones. The ORION PSU has over 32A on the 3.3v rail and 35A on the 5v Rail. I have a modern SilverStone Strider PSU with 500W. Its amperage? 13A on 3.3v and 17A on 5v. This thing wouldn't fly in 1996.

[@rpeetz]

Unless he is trying to boot an athlon xp barton, the 5v requirements should not be so high.

[@asanjuas]

some atx power supplies work with older hardware, but those atx power supplies are the very first ones, not a new modern ones. Bad things happen using those modern power supplies.

[@juanignacioaschura9437]

@@rpeetz I remember having issues with that platform as well.

[@lisandro3614]

1) You need to check the 5v rail when you combine new PSUs with old systems. The last PSU you used worked fine because it has 34A (or something like that) on the 5v rail, but you should watch that more closely next time. The lack of a -5v rail can also cause issues with some cards. 2) Your ST340014AS hard disk is a 40 GB unit, but the motherboard is clearly hitting the classic 8.4 GB ceiling, that can (and will) cause problems. You can use a smaller drive, mod/patch the BIOS, or use a DDO like Ontrack. At this point, I'd ditch the entire hard disk, buy a CF-to-IDE adapter and use a 2GB CompactFlash card. 3) There's an old low-level format utility, MAXLLF. It works with any drive but it was made by Maxtor, so you could try that with the other hard disk. 4) That last bootable CD-ROM you were using is a mess. It's using UMBPCI and creating a RAMDrive... just because. A cleaner environment (like copying the W98 CAB files to a temporal folder on the hard disk and installing from there) is recommended. 5) Test. The. RAM. You're dealing with 20+ years old memory modules. This definitely deserves another round. Good luck!

[@christopherjackson2157]

Took the words out of my mouth... ;)

[@saturnuria1217]

All the right answers in one place.

[@juh-roon]

Spot on. And never underestimate number 5.

[@firedragon-cute-13-nice13]

I agree.

[@Hadisabetghadam]

Alsoooooo hiren boot cd is not working on 16mb ram And Maybe Not Supported Cyris Cpu hiren need 192mb of rom for running partedmagic and windows xp And Need 200 MHZ To Running mini windows xp OR Also You Can Plug HDD To ide/sata TO USB AND Format The HardDrive Simple,Easy, quick, hassle-free

[@alejandroalzatesanchez]

_"Alright guys i think it's about time for some hard drive errors wooooo!!!"_ Best intro yet XD

[@JustPyroYT]

Yes 😂

[@ruairi_d]

That intro made me laugh! Your humour is one of thr reasons I love this channel!

[@_lun4r_]

You have a typo in your comment: the* Say goodbye to the heart on your comment lol

[@DominatorHDX]

Ah all the pains and troubles fidling around with a 90's PC brings back so many memories... I love it!

[@WyvernDotRed]

The power supply issues of the replacements are probably either certain lines not being powerful enough or maybe some inrush current being too high. Perhaps degraded capacitors made the old and possibly new ones more sensitive to this.

[@TheGodOfAllThatWas]

Modern Atx have different amperages too. I forget the details, I think it's the 5v amperages are lower then a typical AT power supply, and the MB expects the higher 5V amperages... It might be worth doing some research into this.... Every problem you had could maybe be related to this.

[@fhunter1test]

AT systems had most of load on 5V rail. Modern ones expect loaded 12V rail and most of the load on 5V is from USB, so it is relatively low, compared to older systems.

[@TheGodOfAllThatWas]

@@fhunter1test Perfect, so that means I have it right the ATX power supplies have lower 5V output ratings then the AT ones at the same wattage, which is why he needed a bigger ATX supply. And there's a chance it's not bigger enough because they don't build ATX supplies expecting you to load up the 5V rail.

[@pentiummmx2294]

my Corsair TX650M i had no issues with on my pentium 1 PC.

[@eDoc2020]

@@TheGodOfAllThatWas It's a bit more complicated than that. Old ATX supplies had the same ratings as AT supplies, it wasn't until the later half of the 2000s that they switched to mostly 12 volts. 20-pin ATX supplies like the one he tried with all the Molex drive connectors will still have plenty of 5v capacity.

[@TheGodOfAllThatWas]

@@eDoc2020 he specifically mentioned he doesnt have the -5 didn't the early ones you mentioned have the -5?

[@ilektrokioydio]

Love your videos. Already died from laughing just from watching the intro when you said "Alright, it is time for some hard drive errors! Wohooooooooooooo!". They always make me laugh and it is just amazing content! Good job. Probably the best KZbinr out of my entire subscription list. Btw, loved that sponsor spot! It was so funny when you trew everything on the ground.

[@cbw56]

Cracked me up too! Love Michael

[@BG101UK]

Same here. This is stress relief at its best (for us, anyway).

[@sadmac356]

Yeah that just cracks me up every time, absolutely _nailed_ the delivery, you couldn't script that

[@crawler-trainspotting]

90's mysteries have always been complicated

[@NoahClevinger]

Let’s go!! I’ve been waiting for part 2 to come out. This’ll definitely be an interesting watch.

[@mica7191]

This guy just hasn't got luck with 90s PCs...

[@bloonzer3473]

Same here too

[@lmuacky3793]

@@mica7191 with any old computer in general, poor man

[@JustPyroYT]

"Alright guys, I think its time for some Hard Drive Errors wooooooooooo..... Not Ready? What do you mean Not ready!? You're a fricking hard drive you don't get to decide if you're ready or not!" I laughed soooo hard 😂😂 Well done Intro, Michael 👍😂

[@herb2k]

The BIOS only detected the Hard Drive as 8GB, you might need to set the CHS manually.

[@LBXComputers]

If it’s a sea gate drive, use seatools to limit the capacity to a few GB and drive again.

[@xDJxGNOMx]

This 👆

[@bunter6]

Definitely this, your bios can't access it correctly as it's way to old. The pc bios ide limits were 512mb with CHS then it increased to 8.4gb then to 32gb LBA. You could use the seatools to translate it but I myself went for a cheap PCI SATA controller with a bios on it.

[@aydenzgamer2249]

I love the way he says "480 WATT POWER SUPPLY" Also, like the fact that he just piles like 2000 floppy disks on his floor just for Linode

[@GYTCommnts]

The part of "it's time for hard drive errors" had me laughing out loud! 🤣💪 Awesome video!

[@arivald6677]

I was so impressed on you when at 8:00 minute mark you casually plugged and unplugged 3 molex connectors in the row like its not a big deal. Those connectors were absolute monsters and I usually had to spent 15 minutes every time and hurt my fingers to unplugg them. I also hated old hard drives cables, they were clunky and hard to connect...

[@andykillsu]

Oh yeah you know its going to be good when its an 'everything goes wrong' video.

[@mitchel7930]

These videos crack me up I love it. Reminds me of a lot of the frustrations my dad and I went through on older systems. Please definitely keep ‘em coming

[@XxH3llC4TxX]

"and maybe take me with ya because this freaking computer is driving me nuts" 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@JVHShack]

@Michael MJD Normally, to overcome the lack of a -5v supply, I would recommend getting a "Voltage Blaster" that was designed by Phil's Computer Lab and Necroware. In this case, the first ATX PSU does have the white wire which is that supposedly missing -5v. The second one does not, so it's your choice which avenue to pursue. I have a feeling that the dying hard drive was the issue with the power consumption. The extra wattage seems to be what kicked that hard drive into gear. One note for the floppy drive; systems this old don't detect floppy drives in the same manner as IDE drives. And speaking of IDE drives, why not invest in some SD or CF cards and the appropriate XX to IDE adapters? CF cards are getting scarce, so an SD to IDE adapter would probably be prudent. Those usually sell for around $20 anyway, minus the SD card. If you need anything, please don't hesitate to email me. I know that I can help you out with the PC showcased here with 100% certainty.

[@JustPyroYT]

Even if *EVERYTHING* did go wrong in this video I still enjoyed it! 👍 The thumbnail really looks like *EVERYTHING* went wrong... 😂

[@SlothCommander69]

I'm fairly new to computers and most of the things you do are foreign to me but I find something oddly satisfying watching you talk about it. Thanks for the content.

[@PMG.2]

Dude, your videos legitimately make my day. I've been having an awful Friday and this video radiates the energy I needed lol.

[@dishonoured]

Love you!!! Really entertaining channel you're running! It's so hard to find good channels these days...

[@user-ci7ys9kj9t]

Well, it's a tough one indeed. I don't really care if you finished the thing or not, all I was enjoying is the excitement you gave us through the tries and the knowledge you gave me. Thanks for this fantastic content!

[@doisti-kun]

Really like your videos Michael! They make my day better!

[@adomantm]

I am with you since your 60k subs But the: Everything went wrong STILL amazes me lmao

[@bradtoddler3765]

Now this, definitely like Krazy Ken’s Tech Misadventures esque. My favorite video from you, finally!

[@Rigoke123]

Damn, this video hits so close to home. You're definitely not the only one who's had those weird issues happen; getting one step further and hit a completely new issue.. ahhh, good times.

[@DuckyBoi42O]

this is the best mjd video i have seen so far, and i liked the coming up at the beginning

[@DaVince21]

Michael, I think you've been getting increasingly funnier over time with these videos and I love it!

[@Snoozie280]

These beginning edits are beautiful.

[@buzdi_dop]

FINALLY you featured that pc i was waithing for this for a long time

[@Argentum_Rex]

You have a godly amount of patience Michael.

[@johannordenswan1200]

Thank you for another very enjoyable video. I'd suggest that the split-second explanatory cards you put in would get vocal time and expansion in situ, as I find them really very interesting and gratifying. Keep doing though rather than adapting, if they conflict :)

[@ivysvids]

I "HA"d so loudly at 31:28 lmao. I loved growing up in this era because problems like this made me an absolute expert troubleshooter, not just with computers either. Transferable skills from annoying hardware/software issues. Nowadays you plug it in and it works, which is great but holy hell the satisfaction from working on something for 3 hours and swearing the house down whilst doing so only to realise the cable is damaged or something is amazing. I love this video.

[@CoTeCiOtm]

"Not ready?! What do you mean not ready?! You're a freakin' hard drive, you don't get to decide if you're ready or not!" Oh boy, that had me laughing my ass off xD

[@TheAbsolute.]

My favourite quotes “Time for disk errors WhOoOoOo!” “Disk not ready? Your a hard disk you don’t decide that” 😂

[@Susie6iscool]

Hello Michael and love the WOOOOOO at the start

[@blainepalmerza]

Awesome video, Michael!

[@benargspeilburg3922]

Michael, if you get stuck with corrupted video files from your phone again, transcode them in cmd with FFMPEG. It's what I've done for years when things have seemingly gone wrong and/or worked on the camera/phone but not on anything else. Works with a bunch of different encoders and file types, and worked with all bar 1 of the video files I've thrown at it. Looking forward to a follow up video on NT!

[@shardsofaperture]

"I've been moving".... You, LGR, MVG... My whole subscription list has moved this year ha!

[@rafaelcaus3762]

Oh the 90's... Terrible PCs. I had a 386 DX 40 mhz with 4 mb ram. Power supply was always a issue. Great video Michael!

[@SudzBud]

Fun fact for the screws popping all over the place, a lot of hex drivers, possibly including the one you are using with the phillips bit, directly fit the hex head on the standard PC case screws. Remove the bit and see if it fits. Love your vids btw!

[@Alxasaurus]

You're slowly becoming dank and I love it.

[@currentsitguy]

This was literally every day of my working life back when I did hardware in the mid to late 90's. I feel for you.

[@nanika2566]

Technology doesn't give you any breaks lol, I wasn't expecting so many things to go wrong in so many ways, but I guess that's gonna be expected for old tech, it can be quite finicky I love the video, it was vvv fun ^^ The visual effects you do are v good too, keep doing

[@thatonefoxxy]

Of course everything goes wrong here at Micheal MJD. LMFAOO!! I love your videos sooo much, they're so entertaining! XDDD

[@ashlandwithouttheshd]

Love this descent into madness

[@KatJustice97]

You really committed to the mess for that Linode ad. Impressive

[@Sleepy-oi3xh]

That Woo at the beginning is perfection. He sounds both excited (somehow) AND so exhausted at the same time

[@mchenrynick]

21:12 "I can't even press CTRL-ALT-DELETE now" LOL!

[@Chaos101Theory101]

Mate, you had a bloody bad day 😳... Did make me chuckle though lol, good on yah...

[@EternalxFrost]

I'm ready to put my hand in the fire that the major cause of the weird issues you're encountering is because you're using a Cyrix / IBM cpu. That's the first thing I noticed. I used to have an IBM-branded Cyrix cpu (Cx6x86 PR-166 more precisely) and it was giving me all sorts of issues when installing Win98 / Me / WinNT (Invalid DPMI return when loading the GUI part of the setup, for example). Had no issues installing DOS / Win3.x / Win95 though. Granted at the time I did not know I could improve stability and performance of Cyrix cpus with special registers. You should try just swapping the cpu for either a Pentium or a K6, and your issues should be solved. You should give it another go with another cpu. Keep up the good work, Michael ! 👌

[@Divyanshu.Saraswat]

11:30 PM (IST).... It's time for bed and watching a MJD video really helps me out 😌

[@xDJxGNOMx]

"everything goes wrong" - again? If I wouldn't know better i'd say you do it on purpose but props to you for keeping up with this stuff just for us to enjoy 😂👍

[@wielku]

I usually skip a lot throughout videos because idk adhd? but this was totally entertaining through and through

[@OlegDorbitt]

Excited for a Kolibri OS video!

[@NielsPaul]

6:31 The 8-Bit Guy nervously sweating from the thought of jumping a PSU with a paper clip.

[@RobertCMoore]

33:48 Never saw "format terminated" before. I couldn't help myself to this funny piece. I've installed OS in my day, and I've encountered that error before.

[@Dragonfire511]

This is why i love this channel even more ♥️.

[@lazlopanaflex777]

Oh look, another dead Maxtor...had a few die myself, just absolute crap. Got my MCSE on NT4 ;) Awesome channel btw, so much binge-watching-worthy vintage goodness! Happy holidays! 🍻🍻 Edit: You sir have the patience of Job...I would've went Office Space on that thing! :D

[@phr3dmcc0y]

man, I wish i was there with you. This looks like so much fun.

[@livefreeprintguns]

Re: the power supply "third time's the charm." It wouldn't be an MJD video if things didn't go wrong. 🤣❤

[@kalarse]

I feel so bad, but couldn't help to laugh of the segway to the sponsor, it was so perfect but also I'm so glad I never had to deal with that

[@pta103]

That floppy disk drop really hurt

[@tfruba]

Hi Michael! I totally feel your pain. I've spent last two days on trying to move my Windows XP installation from an old, dying hard drive to new SSD. First problem was with laptop: IBM T43 with HDD whitelist. Second problem: old HDD was ATA66 (IDE) and the new one was mSATA II with an adapter. Third problem was: Windows XP doesn't really like when some tries to change the HDD it's been installed on. But finally!! After almost 20 hours - I've got it working! But I still have no idea why didn't I just take another Hitachi HDD...

[@dagglock7615]

That power converter came from? I really would like some of those. Nice video by the way..lol

[@fracturedrealitygaming1326]

Having got my start with technology right at the end of 9x and the beginning of NT with XP, I can say that I understand the struggles from watching my dad try to build budget gaming pcs during the era

[@timcook9730]

This is the video with the most MJDness ever!

[@tatata1543]

I enjoyed this little trip down memory lane. Hiren’s and mini tool partition wizard, if they didn’t fix it nothing would.

[@cbw56]

Great video my friend!

[@johnbucki5567]

I loved that intro, perfect.

[@danielbelteki1520]

I know what it feels like. Back in the days, I loved to repair old computers. But the pain when you think the machine don't want you to repair it, incomprehensible. But when you success, the feeling is indescribable

[@xan1242]

28:41 this is such a good sound dude

[@daniel0818]

this content is cool, ive watch mjd for a while now, and his content is great

[@por77os]

Love when everything goes wrong. In all My life as a technician that happend me a lot of times so. Thumbs up!!

[@Amber_123]

michael seems extra deranged/chaotic (in a good way) in this video and i'm kind of living for it???

[@fortressmax20]

I feel your pain. Every time I try and do something old computers something like this happens.

[@insideyourbed9731]

Hi MJD! I’m pretty sure “not ready” was a common error amongst MS-DOS versions Can you try using the /U parameter when formatting It should work like this: Format C: /U

[@MrJeroendemuzikant]

@Michael MJD: At 34:32 did you, in fdisk, set the active partition? (option 2) I once [long long time ago] forgot to do this and got al sorts of errors etc. when I wanted to format. At that time I didn't know jack shit about what to do. Just to start again and by accident come to the right solution. 😎

[@amirpourghoureiyan1637]

There must be a short circuit on one of those drives, the other PSUs are probably going into protection mode and switching off.

[@stili774]

Not enough Amp on 5V Rail

[@Inject0r]

There IS a short circuit inside te computer. I’m sure it’s one of those drives. Smaller components inside the optical drive, tape drive, FDD or HDD could behave like a low resistance resistor instead of a capacitor or diode. Using a more powerful PSU will just make sure the voltage drop (due to the short circuit) won’t be as big as an issue for the PSU. Finding a short circuit inside this PC will be quite easy: - Use the old PSU without the drives and check if it starts without any components (if it doesn’t, try with a load comparable to about 3 HDD’s) - plug in every other component individually, starting with the drives (as I’m suspecting one of those drives) - plug in the motherboard individually There might still be an issue on the motherboard. They often use tantalum capacitors, which might pop spectacularly when shorting (due to age and degradation into a short circuit). If one of those capacitors pop, the PC will still work without that component.

[@JasperNLxD]

12:00 "Maybe it needs this much wattage, I don't know" You should check the table to see what the maximal amperage is per voltage output. Modern PSUs are designed for their expected voltage draws. This used to be wildly different in the past. So you don't need the full amount of watts, you just need the full amperage for a certain voltage channel.

[@moonrock41]

This is like reliving some of my worst PC repair nightmares, but worse.

[@rogerhuner6566]

It was interesting to see a man who knows more about computers get the same kind of results I would. I hope you have better success in the future

[@robertl.raggijr.8278]

That had to be the best sponsor segue I have ever seen...

[@Felisaas]

love it thx for that gread video. I also have a old optiplex and dont know how to upgrade it. any ideas?

[@new_weegeegos]

4:15 😂 many years ago I was shocked in this way when, like a fool, I forgot to unplug the power cord

[@cidsx]

oh my god you just like threw those floppies and power supplies i'm gonna cry

[@philtkaswahl2124]

That sarcastic "WHOOO!!" at the hard drive error had such an audible undertone of frustration warring with a stubborn refusal to give up.

[@russellbrooks3622]

Looks like a typical experience, when I decide to mess with some old PCs. I wasted more than half a day trying to install anything at all on a laptop several months ago. When I started, the laptop was old, but in good working condition. When it was over, the laptop was in numerous irregularly shaped pieces in the garbage can outside.

[@dimples282]

26:28 If you haven't already gone to the toggle I'm about to describe, that might have to do with iOS exposing an H264 proxy when plugged into a computer instead of the actual HEVC original (and likewise with .jpg and .heic for stills if I'm remembering right). There is a toggle in Settings > Photos > "Transfer to Mac or PC" where you can toggle Automatic for H264 video/.jpg images or Keep Originals for HEVC video/.heic images. But hey, I'll admit that AirPlay workaround of yours is clever nonetheless. Whatever works!

[@britishagent]

This was hilarious. Reminded me why i never wanted to go back to that PC era again

[@medusesquash795]

Ahhh the old fashioned "but everything wrong"... The only episode which i am not disappointed

[@skylimitation]

Why is this video so energetic?? 😂😂

[@enilenis]

I had a crate with something something like 30 power supplies from the 90's. Recently the one in one of my retro 486 boxes expired. I pulled a replacement and it didn't work either. I started testing them, and turned out absolutely all of my PSU's were dead. Electrolytic capacitors dried out, I take it.I keep forgetting how much time has passed since I acquired most of my equipment. To me it feels like 90's were only yesterday, but the parts tell a different story.

[@menzokruizinga]

i laughed so hard i fell off the chair😂 this brought me back to the good old days

[@gmt-yt]

That switch! Yikes! Objectively terrifying. Never knew that was a thing in early PC's. Pretty weird about the boot-time power consumption... failing caps maybe? IIRC NT4 is pretty solid if you patch it up to SP6, but pretty much broken pre-SP3. NT311 seems to have had a lot more "character" I think. Although I have very little experience with it.

[@gmt-yt]

To me this looks like something might be wrong with your motherboard or RAM (edit: or CPU). Time after time you put known good media into different interfaces, and it always starts out OK, but wigs out with data integrity errors within a couple of minutes. I might try memtest on a different host, but if the ram tested good, I'd likely give up. The power weirdness is probably a clue to some underlying nightmare problem. If I were determined to nurse it to health, however, I'd get an O-scope, cap-tester, attack everything with alcohol and contact cleaner, get everything out of the case and mounted on plywood, get some known-good systems for parts around me, and start by playing musical microchips. But why do all that? Just some fugly low-middle tier desktop from way back---ime not worth the effort.